Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 17, 2022

Ukraine - For Laughs

'Western' media are nothing but Zelenski regime megaphones.

Liveuamap @Liveuamap - 21:30 UTC · May 16, 2022
Zelensky confirms Azovstal troops evacuation: «Ukraine needs Ukrainian heroes alive. This has been our principle» via @myroslavapetsa
The New York Times @nytimes - 22:59 UTC · May 16, 2022
Breaking News: Ukraine ended its “combat mission” in Mariupol and said fighters were being evacuated, signaling that the battle at a steel plant was over.
CNN International @cnni - 23:39 UTC · May 16, 2022
Ukrainian forces say they have ended their "combat mission" in besieged Mariupol, as hundreds are evacuated from the Azovstal steel plant.
Reuters @Reuters - 3:35 AM · May 17, 2022
Ukraine's military said it was working to evacuate all remaining troops from their last stronghold in the besieged port of Mariupol, ceding control of the city to Russia after months of bombardment

From the false headline down the Washington Post report on the issue is a master piece of propaganda:

Ukraine ends bloody battle for Mariupol, evacuates Azovstal fighters

Ukrainian fighters have ended their weeks-long defense of a besieged steel plant in the strategic port city of Mariupol, as hundreds of combatants — dozens of them seriously wounded — were evacuated from the complex Monday.

One has to read beyond 323 words of falsehood to find out, down in paragraph 7, what really has happened.

Moscow hasn’t yet publicly responded to the developments in Mariupol, which were described by Russian state media as an order from Ukrainian military command for its troops to “surrender.”

Ukraine’s deputy defense minister, Anna Malyar, said 53 seriously wounded soldiers were taken to a hospital in Novoazovsk, a nearby town which is controlled by Russian-backed separatists. Another 211 were transported to another Russian-aligned village, Olenivka, she said. Moscow and Kyiv are brokering a prisoner swap to secure their release.

Malyar said officials were still working to rescue the remaining soldiers, though it is unclear how many are still inside. Ukrainian authorities said last week there were nearly 1,000 holdout fighters in the plant.

The f***ers finally gave up and surrendered unconditionally to the Russian forces as their only alternative was to decease within the next hours or days.

I am sure that the Russian authorities will apply a fine filter to determine who of those prisoners of war are allegeable for war crime prosecutions, de-nazification and a long stay in some north Siberian road builder camp.

There are also rumors of NATO personnel presence in the Azovstal catacombs. They will likely get to know the cellars of the famous Lubyanka building in Moscow before being exchanged in this or that deal with their home countries.

The rest will eventually be exchanged for Russian soldiers who are unfortunately held by the Ukrainian military.

Posted by b on May 17, 2022 at 9:18 UTC | Permalink

« previous page | next page »

I think the Ukrainian (i.e. US) plan looks as follows: Send your old, inexperienced troops / territorials with rudimentary equipment to the donbas front right now, let them defend these fortifications at the cost of their lives while bleeding and exhausting the enemy as much as possible. At the same time, train your younger, more experienced, more motivated troops on the best nato equipment you can get your hands on and use the rest for special operations at the flanks and propaganda operations to keep morale up while minimizing their losses. Later on, surprise attack the (hopefully) exhausted enemy using your best troops with all the best equipment you've gathered.

This may be cynical, amoral and so on, but this is war and we know it's about much more than just Ukraine.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17 2022 15:27 utc | 101

@ Posted by: Republicofscotland | May 17 2022 14:10 utc | 74

They are all caught in a major meat grinder circle trap. With a rain of Syrian battle tested smart shells incoming. The life of this batch or scratch made up division of unfortunate UAF soldiers. Will be measured in days............

The total collapse of the entire Eastern UAF army is measured in the same amount of time as well.............

Phase Two the forced mass UAF eastern army unit surrenders to begin in ...............

Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | May 17 2022 15:28 utc | 102

The Fourth Reich, sorry, I meant the United States, is on the march...

'A bill being drafted in the Senate would allow U.S. courts to try war crimes cases even if neither the perpetrators nor the victims are American....'

This would make the United States officially the world's policeman.


Posted by: Hidari | May 17 2022 15:29 utc | 103

to whom it may concern
murder your darlings

Posted by: ld | May 17 2022 15:32 utc | 104

@Milos #100

US didn't want to punish Germany for approaching Russia, they wanted to punish them for being too independent. Trump went crazy for NS2 and even today he's very proud of it but German people have no problem with it, they voted the current puppets. EU put 5bn in NS2 pipe and they are happy to lose the money.

Last year Micron started to build even more nuclear power plants, he's preparing to sell more power to Germany while they close nuclear, it's not green enough. Watch Putin's speech from today, EU will have the highest cost for energy in the world.

Posted by: rk | May 17 2022 15:36 utc | 105


And yet we will not submit ourselves to the Hague. #clownworld

Posted by: Randolorian | May 17 2022 15:45 utc | 106

Re: reports of 16K Ukrainian soldiers surrendering in Donbass -

If accurate, then this is the beginning of the collapse of the Ukrainian army that Gonzalo Lira talked about. That might be a bigger deal than any US-led bioweapons research going on in Ukraine.

Posted by: Cynica | May 17 2022 15:49 utc | 107

Ghost Ship@51 Because the complex still has value and can be rebuilt?

Posted by: bevin | May 17 2022 13:18 utc | 59

I read somewhere that there is no intention to rebuild the Astoval Steel works and that the Chinese were in discussions to build a container and shipping port for the Belt & Road Initiative,

Posted by: Opport Knocks | May 17 2022 15:52 utc | 108

what a joke.... people are ignorant if they believe this bullshit...

Posted by: james | May 17 2022 15:53 utc | 109

Dollar falls below 63 rubles on Moscow Exchange

Posted by: Norwegian | May 17 2022 15:56 utc | 110

Posted by: Republicofscotland | May 17 2022 14:10 utc | 74

The link doesn’t say they Ukis were captured. More like surrounded.

Posted by: RJB | May 17 2022 15:58 utc | 111

I have a strong feeling that within the next few days the Ukrainian army would capitulate, that is, either the field commanders would lay down arms or the there will be a full capitulation.

Posted by: ostro | May 17 2022 15:59 utc | 112

Posted by: Milos | May 17 2022 15:22 utc | 100

Probably as trenchant a description as there could be!

Germany doesn't have the resources to maintain as a power. They also don't have enough control over the world's banking system to make up for that. US continues to control Germany thanks to Germany once again falling for the "pull my finger" joke again: hey! rebuke Russia and things will be better (just pay us for "protecting you").

Posted by: Seer | May 17 2022 16:05 utc | 113

I am thinking that the terms of this "evacuation? were the subject matter for the call between Austin and Shoigu

I expect further terms of evacuation to be handled the same way....Biden will not be the one to evacuate.....

Posted by: psychohistorian | May 17 2022 16:05 utc | 114

RJB (111).

It does say this in the link.

"The Ministry of Internal Affairs of the LPR reported the capture of up to 16 thousand soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine near Lisichansk and Severodonetsk"

However it also says they are trapped in cauldron so yes its not 100% clear.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | May 17 2022 16:06 utc | 115

Having savagely attacked Russia, the American Empire now prepares to attack China.

Posted by: Hidari | May 17 2022 16:09 utc | 116

There are also rumors of NATO personnel presence in the Azovstal catacombs.

I remember there was a flurry of rumours of a very specific US officer, Lt. General Roger L. Cloutier Jr., who is the officer in charge of LANDCOM, was trapped in the complex with the Azov fighters. It was odd one because at once it seemed unnecessary and high risk for low reward for the US to be putting somebody like that in that position. (He is the commander of LANDCOM) And the Russians themselves and ordinary people in Russia are not averse to silly propaganda or paranoid thinking either. But it stuck with me that it was so specific and that he was apparently a bit hands on and had been on the ground possibly during the post-invasion period but certainly close to it. It's just such a weird thing to claim that the head of LANDCOM was personally on the ground and trapped in the steel works.

But at the same time the supposed 'debunking' was a LinkedIn post from the man. Why didn't he record a video so CNN could take another swipe at the Russians? Were they afraid the Russians could do some analysis of the video to work out where he was specifically? They know where the HQ for LANDCOM is. Does the US military not have the technology to make a 'clean' video?

To my knowledge they still haven't released a picture or video of him.

Posted by: Altai | May 17 2022 16:09 utc | 117

maybe it's just because i don't have alzheimer's (yet) but i seem to recall just a week or so ago they offered to trade civilians (thereby proving they were holding them hostage) for a ton(!) of food. the siege worked. the bitches starved. hopefully the human shields are okay.

but this fits the pattern of complete denial and/or ignorance i see even among otherwise smart people (e.g. finkelstein) about the russian performance. apparently someone woke up a few weeks ago and decided the new narrative was "the russians are facing horrible crushing defeat" as well as "they didn't expect resistance (from a group of psychopaths who had been shelling and shooting at civilians for 8 years, btw)".

but then these are the same twats who declared "mission accomplished" multiple times in iraq and afghanistan.

Posted by: the pair | May 17 2022 16:09 utc | 118

Well, yes, it was a surrender, but it's also possible, even somewhat likely, that it wasn't exactly surrender.

Because it seems possible that it was agreed in advance that these Azovstal troops (some of them, or possibly even all of them) will be exchanged for the Russian POVs.

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | May 17 2022 16:11 utc | 119

The Fourth Reich, sorry, I meant the United States, is on the march...

'A bill being drafted in the Senate would allow U.S. courts to try war crimes cases even if neither the perpetrators nor the victims are American....'

This would make the United States officially the world's policeman.


Posted by: Hidari | May 17 2022 15:29 utc | 103

That proposed US Congressional bill is a prototypical example of America's Orwellian values in action.

The world's greatest war criminal nation--the United States of America--deludes itself that it has moral authority to accuse other nations of war crimes.

The United States always instinctively resorts to psychological projection in order to project America's own crimes onto its geopolitical opponents.

This is the pathology of American values.

The Americans should be careful, however, as other nations would do well to start prosecuting American war criminals (including current members of Congress, White House, State Department, and the American Military-Intelligence apparatus) in their courts for America-led wars of aggression against Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Serbia, Somalia, etc....

Costs of the 20-year war on terror: $8 trillion and 900,000 deaths

CIA Stories: Death Squads in Afghanistan

The BRussells Tribunal

Posted by: ak74 | May 17 2022 16:12 utc | 120

One more note to my evacuate comment

The term evacuate mostly refers to the emptying or discharging of waste matter....which a lawyer could probably argue is an accurate representation of the activity represented by the evacuate Webster's Unabridged has for # 4 of evacuate:
to give up military occupation of; withdraw from

I wonder what the Winston Smith's of our current world think about the black hole of humanity's consciousness they continue to create for their masters.

Posted by: psychohistorian | May 17 2022 16:14 utc | 121

Who can laugh at the misery of of the innocent poor people of Ukraine is inhuman!!
Who can sympathize with mass murdering invaders is satanic.

Posted by: Anders | May 17 2022 16:14 utc | 122

Only problem with that hypothesis is that Russia controls the skies. All the trained personnel and equipment end up just like is happening with the lesser-trained and lower-tech weapons that we're currently witnessing. Also consider that when the Donbass is secured that Russia will have full focus on pointing westward to thwart any efforts from that direction (now it's fighting in multiple directions, though those differing directions are being diminished as the days roll on).

IF, that is, Russia sticks to freeing only the Donbass and the southern coast (with Odessa in there). It starts to get a bit more iffy in the western part of Ukraine due to a direct NATO pipeline via Poland. How much the West/NATO can push into western Ukraine long-term will be something to be seen (how Russia will respond). But for now the initial stated objectives are clearly being met.

Posted by: Seer | May 17 2022 16:15 utc | 123

Last year Micron started to build even more nuclear power plants, he's preparing to sell more power to Germany while they close nuclear, it's not green enough. Watch Putin's speech from today, EU will have the highest cost for energy in the world. Posted by: rk | May 17 2022 15:36 utc | 105
Micron is a clown. Playing Dick&Doof with Scholz.

1 on 2 French nuclear plant are out of order ["need maintenance, no spare parts because of Covid, blablabla"]. France actually BUY electricity to Germany windmills [or coal or Russian gas 😉]

The next generation of nuclear plant called EPR, don't go well. First one in Finland, 10 years late. 2nd one in Normandy 8 years late, unfinished, cost are out of control, more than 3 times.
And Macron announced a new generation of mini-nuclear plant, nobody never heard about this in France [yes, possible if you buy a Russian one 🤪]

The bottom line of the state controlled EDF monopolist electricity producer is on red for 100 billion deficit and 50 old nuclear plants to retrofit.
Dead end.
French electricity will cost 50€cts/kWh, Germany is close to 40€cts.
Gas was 5 to 6 €cts. Could be 50 next winter.
I hope us all a quick Global Warming.

Posted by: La Bastille | May 17 2022 16:22 utc | 124

did you know that in the US, it is the fault of immigrant infants that grandam Uncle Sam's withered dugs are full of Pepsi and gmo ethanol?

"i can connect nothing with nothing:" the typical US brain at work. it's surely a much smaller thing to change the meaning of "retreat" than to change the meaning of "endemic". where, oh where is the "ancient simplicity" that we need?

"Thus every form of iniquity took root in the Hellenic countries by reason of the troubles. The ancient simplicity into which honour so largely entered was laughed down and disappeared; and society became divided into camps in which no man trusted his fellow." etc. Thucydides 3

Posted by: rjb1.5 | May 17 2022 16:22 utc | 125

Because “losing is the new winning”

Posted by: nwwoods | May 17 2022 16:24 utc | 126

Never misunderestimate stupidity. Just watched the teaser, May 19th will be the world premiere of Dubbya telling Vovan and Leksus that your mission is to destroy as many Russian troops as you can, and then to say good bye, Slava Bovan and Leksus!. If this would not be the greatest tragedy in the post soviet space it would be the greatest comedy movie ever, but a lot of people are dying as a consequence of malignant idiots like Dubbya. But you guys in the old USA did not have enough with Dubbya, then you went for Brandon.

Posted by: Paco | May 17 2022 16:28 utc | 127

@La Bastille
"Macron announced a new generation of mini-nuclear plant, nobody never heard about this in France"

I read about such a thing. US is building them and the first country to test is Romania. It is supposed to be done sometime before 2030 and if Romania doesn't go boom they plan to sell to other countries "to escape Russian energy"

Posted by: rk | May 17 2022 16:30 utc | 128

I hope Russia is going to put the Azov Nazis on trial and not just trade the for Russian POWS as if they were ordinary Ukrainian soldiers.

Posted by: darren price | May 17 2022 16:31 utc | 129

cbc headline this morning has a bit more integrity..

Russia poised to take control of Mariupol as Ukraine surrenders steel plant

Posted by: james | May 17 2022 16:32 utc | 130

Posted by: Anders | May 17 2022 16:14 utc | 122

Who can laugh at the misery of of the innocent poor people of Ukraine is inhuman!!

Did you laugh at the misery of civilians in the LPR and DPR ? Or, those who were burned to death in the Trade Union building in Odessa?

Who can sympathize with mass murdering invaders is satanic.

Did you sympathise with the Azov regiment as they murdered Ukrainians for 8 years?

Posted by: Arch Bungle | May 17 2022 16:32 utc | 131

Posted by: Hidari | May 17 2022 15:29 utc | 103

'A bill being drafted in the Senate would allow U.S. courts to try war crimes cases even if neither the perpetrators nor the victims are American....'

Seems kind of redundant, considering Guantanamo bay ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | May 17 2022 16:34 utc | 132

Escobar, 5/16/22, Pentagon and CIA 'experts' are clueless, even worse are British 'consultants.' None of these people have required intellect to see that Ukraine effort isn't for a military win, rather a police-like effort to remove certain harmful psychopath influencers supported by US and EU regimes. Delivery of US billions that can't be checked make clear this is mainly a money laundering operation. Russian forces have given 10 tons of humanitarian assistance to the people of liberated Kherson.

Posted by: susan mullen | May 17 2022 16:34 utc | 133 banned my commenting user id and they are deactivating all my comments under new id. Its funny CBC allows comments that vulgarly criticizing Putin, but you can't say anything bad about senile old man or the former drama teacher. Must stay away from

Posted by: Calgary Guy | May 17 2022 16:37 utc | 134

On the French PR front
French MSM [France24, France info, BFMTV, LCI...] tried to use "evacuate" in the morning, but since 12:00 UTC they are cornered with the Z signs on the bus
Armchairs warmonger and retired generals are now accepting reality. POW.
Trying to turn it in victory. "they will be soon exchanged".
Narrative falls apart

Nous marchons vers la guerre comme des somnambules
Some realistic voices for peace, like Henri Gaino are fighting back.
It's in French "Le Figaro" [pay wall]

But in full on

Posted by: La Bastille | May 17 2022 16:39 utc | 135

@ Calgary Guy | May 17 2022 16:37 utc | 134

cbc for all intensive purposes is a full on propaganda outlet.... i wouldn't take it personally.. i still get to post, but lots of moderation and deleting of comments that don't fit the propaganda agenda they are enforcing..

Posted by: james | May 17 2022 16:40 utc | 136

US admiral Olsen apparently

And another big fish possibly Cloutier

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 17 2022 16:47 utc | 137

it's just a flesh wound - Monty Python

Posted by: Manage without me | May 17 2022 16:57 utc | 138

... I remember there was a flurry of rumours of a very specific US officer, Lt. General Roger L. Cloutier Jr. ... But at the same time the supposed 'debunking' was a LinkedIn post from the man. Why didn't he record a video so CNN could take another swipe at the Russians? ... To my knowledge they still haven't released a picture or video of him.
Posted by: Altai | May 17 2022 16:09 utc | 117

Their refutation was suspiciously weak, but I guess they were only responding to internet rumours, so why make any special effort, is one way of looking at it.

Another is that he’s trapped in Azovstal, though they hope to quietly get him back, so a weak response using previously unpublished images will buy time.

As you imply, the longer he goes without being convincingly seen elsewhere, the more suspicious we should be.

Posted by: anon2020 | May 17 2022 16:57 utc | 139

Posted by: La Bastille | May 17 2022 16:39 utc | 135

Thanks for that link. I still cannot comprehend France linguistic policy, all MSM in French behind paywalls, and what was a universal language, at least in the diplomatic and gastronomic world, is dissappearing from the world stage. I read a comment, since of course I would not waste my time watching that kind of show, that French language was used during Eurovision, and not a single performer sang a song in it.

Not a bad article, a quote that sounds French.

Faire aujourd’hui des concessions à la Russie, c’est se plier à la loi du plus fort. N’en faire aucune, c’est se plier à la loi du plus fou.

What I would ask the author is if the EU is in a position to make concessions, I don't think so, the EU's position is to obey orders, from we know who.

Posted by: Paco | May 17 2022 16:58 utc | 140

Two articles from New Cold War.
The first is highly recommended

The second is one that only people used to handling disinfected bargepoles should read. The author is a Ukrainian woman studying in Toronto. She is in many ways a typical post Trotskyist and goes to great pains to indicate that she does not support the Russian action and is entirely au fait with every facet of identity politics.
"Olena Lyubchenko is a PhD Candidate in Political Science, based in Toronto. Her research interests include neoliberal restructuring, dispossession, and financialization of social reproduction as well as struggles around life-making. Olena’s dissertation draws on social reproduction feminism and traces the transformation of the gender contract and social citizenship model from the Soviet to the post-Soviet era in Russia."

She ends her piece, otherwise full of the sort of jargon designed to ensure that it is almost incomprehensible, thus:
"Victory to the working people of Ukraine, solidarity with the Russian anti-war movement!"

So be warned-the ideological roots of the article lie in "Third Camp" cosying up to imperialism. She assures us that the Soviet Union was another version of the British Empire.

(I'm going to write a book one day entitled " How to be a Revolutionary Communist without disqualifying yourself from getting a highly paid job teaching the kids of the most disgusting capitalists in institutions run by the bourgeois state.")

And yet there are some interesting and rarely discussed aspects of life in eastern ukraine which make the article worthwhile for those able to separate empirical grain from ideological guff.

Posted by: bevin | May 17 2022 16:58 utc | 141

My guess is the group from Azovstal has entered oblivion. They will be forgotten by the West/NATO/Ukraine. Russia has plenty of POWs to trade other than this group. These guys are going to face the citizens they harassed with penalties to follow.

Posted by: circumspect | May 17 2022 16:59 utc | 142

We walk to war like sleepwalkers

Henri Gaino was the main advisor for foreign affairs of President Sarkozy.

He wrote yesterday an Op-ed in "Le Figaro" and today interviewed by Europe1 asked for a French veto on Finland and Sweden joining NATO.

A few thousand of "evacuated" POW will soon enlarge the minds.

Machine translated, mine emphasis

We walk towards war like sleepwalkers.
I'm borrowing this image from the title of Australian historian Christopher Clark's book on the causes of World War I: The Sleepwalkers, Summer 1914: How Europe Marched Toward War.
“The outbreak of the war of 14-18, he writes, is not an Agatha Christie novel (…) There is no murder weapon in this story, or rather there are. one for each main character. Seen in this light, the outbreak of the war was not a crime, but a tragedy. »

In 1914, no European leader was demented, none wanted a world war that would kill twenty million people, but together they started it. And at the time of the Treaty of Versailles no one wanted another world war that would kill sixty million people but, all together, they still armed the infernal machine that was going to lead to it.
As early as September 7, 1914, after only a month of war, the Chief of the German General Staff who had pleaded so much for Germany to attack before being attacked wrote to his wife: “What torrents of blood have flowed (… ) I feel that I am responsible for all these horrors and yet I could not do otherwise. »
“I couldn't do otherwise”: everything was said about the spiral that leads to war. Gear which is first of all that by which each people begins to lend to the other its own ulterior motives, its unacknowledged intentions, the feelings which it itself feels towards it.

This is what the West is doing today vis-à-vis Russia
and this is what Russia is doing vis-à-vis the West. The West convinced itself that if Russia won in Ukraine, it would have no limit in its will to dominate. Conversely, Russia convinced itself that if the West pushed Ukraine into its camp, it would be the West who would no longer contain its hegemonic ambition.

By extending NATO to all the former Eastern countries up to the Baltic countries, by transforming the Atlantic Alliance into an anti-Russian alliance, by pushing back the borders of the European Union to those of Russia, the The United States and the European Union have reawakened in Russians the feeling of encirclement that has been at the root of so many European wars.
Western support for the 2014 Maidan revolution against a pro-Russian Ukrainian government proved to Russians that their fears were well founded. Russia's annexation of Crimea and its support for the Donbass separatists in turn gave the West the feeling that the Russian threat was real and that Ukraine should be armed, which persuaded Russia somewhat more than the West threatened it. The strategic partnership agreement concluded between the United States and Ukraine on November 10, 2021, sealing an alliance of the two countries explicitly directed against Russia and promising Ukraine's entry into NATO, has completed convincing Russia that she had to attack before the supposed adversary was able to do so. This is the cogwheel of 1914 in all its frightening purity.

More on

Posted by: La Bastille | May 17 2022 17:01 utc | 143

@134 Calgary Guy and @136 james

Agree completely james. It wasn't always so (e.g., "This Hour Has Seven Days" back in the 60s) but CBC is just a bad joke now, not to be taken at all seriously. They pretend to be so sober and serious, all the while indulging in assclownery.

Posted by: spudski | May 17 2022 17:02 utc | 144

Russia would never let their little war crime songbirds fly away. There's a cage waiting for them in Donbass soon enough. Truth is a sheild and Justice is it's sword

Posted by: Befree | May 17 2022 17:04 utc | 145

Posted by: Et Tu | May 17 2022 11:15 utc | 23

Still no Canadian generals, French colonels or any Nato officers.. lets see how many stories that never materialise still circulate..

I suspect it will be a few nothing burgers for domestic and fanboy consumption, anything of significance will be suppressed or distorted in Western media as always, and the war will go on like nothing ever happened at Azovstal.

For those tired of hearing about Ukraine, here is something more significant in Syria:

Naturally, in true Russian fashion, missiles "did not present a serious threat to the IAF fighter jets.". Presumably Israel would need to shoot another few more Russian planes to actually feel deterred.


The "high ranking NATO officials" hiding out in Azovstal always sounded like bullshit to me. No evidence was ever supplied and the whole scenario was implausible to begin with. Propaganda is where the US and western media outfits really "shine". It's slickly mixed with enough truth to make it sound realistic, it's backed up and given legitimacy by celebrities and politicians, it's disseminated widely and repeated ad nauseum. There is no way Russia or China can compete with that even if they polished up their PR content and made it less clumsy.

Will be interesting to see how Israel reacts to the S-300 warning shot across its bow. If they call Russia's bluff and keep up the bombing runs, and assume Russia will never shoot down an Israeli war plane, the Russians will look weak if they don't then react with deadly force.

If they don't want to confront Israel directly they could train the Syrians to use the S-300s and that would give them plausible deniability if an Israeli plane is eventually shot out of the sky.

Posted by: darren price | May 17 2022 17:05 utc | 146

Posted by: circumspect | May 17 2022 16:59 utc | 142

The overall prisoner ratio is about ten to one in Russia's favor. Today in the Duma the deputy Anatoly Vasserman of former Echo of Moscow proposed a bill to prohibit exchanging any Azov prisoner, it will be worked upon.

Posted by: Paco | May 17 2022 17:07 utc | 147

The turn of events in Mariupol seem like a rather large change in the Ukrainian situation. I imagine the Zoom / boardroom meetings in various fourth estate establishments...

Journalist 1 - "Humm, how do we spin this? Dang. I wrote an article last year about Azov being slightly... uhm, fascist."

Executive editor - "That's not a problem. Most of the audience doesn't even know what fascist means. Anyways, they're our guys."

Producer 1 - "That said, I'm super confused about all these Spanish people in Ukraine. Isn't Galicia in Spain? And Bandera. We could have run with that a while back. What a mistake. Bandera is so much better than Shushkevich. No one on my side can make heads or tails of this OUN-B vs. OUN-M nonesense either. Azov is so much better. And I had a whole graphics team working on a great logo transition with that black sun thing when we go to commercials. Then that mass shooter in Buffalo used it."

Depressed graphic designer - "Yeah, I thought I would get an Emmy for that. Best news show graphics package. What a drag."

Producer 2 - "Yeah, and my old anchors still say Kiev instead of Keeeeeeeev."

Executive editor - "Dead wood."

(suspicious looks all around)

Executive editor - "Okay. Let's think."

Ladder climbing junior copywriter chimes in, "I know. We need to turn the Covid fear back on to distract the sheep. Oops, my bad. Our audience."

( Polite chuckles all around )

Junior executive in the meeting. "I heard that Monkeypox has been gaining traction on Twitter."

Chief editor - "Great idea! Let's run with it!"

Posted by: lex talionis | May 17 2022 17:08 utc | 148

Since Brexit has been mentioned repeatedly, Grayzone published a new article on that yesterday, very interesting, based on leaks.

And on the Guardian there is an article on Black Propaganda, which has been used by Britain to cause conflicts between target countries.

After centuries of colonial crimes it seems that Britain is simply incapable of living with other countries, they are like hooked to crime. A country of sociopaths.

Posted by: Nico | May 17 2022 17:14 utc | 149

Altai | May 17 2022 16:09 utc | 117

It was my thought some time back that the bunkers under Azovstal were some type of Nato headquarters.

One General was caught trying to evacuate as a civilian, another two on pics/video with this current surrender and two more of Kayrov's big fish have not been seen as yet. Possibly Russia now has them or they may still be in the bunkers. I would guess there are also more lower ranked Nato officers in the mix.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 17 2022 17:15 utc | 150

I noted a few comments here on the number of Nazis taken from Azovstal today, to Russia it appears. In any case, I counted 10-12 coaches departing and in a couple of interior photos, I counted at least 20 prisoners in one coach, so that's at the very least 200 people. But are these the last?

Posted by: Barofsky | May 17 2022 17:31 utc | 151

Yes, an interesting use of language that Cyntia Chung would pounce on given the introduction to her final installment of a series she describes thusly:

"Thus far in this series we have seen a picture that has painted NATO, the CIA, and fascists including outright Nazis all working for the same apparatus and essentially the same goal: to overthrow democratically elected leaders and replace them with dictators and fascist right-wing governments."

The use of language as a tool to manipulate the great mass of society begins her narrative, and--as we see constantly with the manipulations on daily display by the NY Times, WaPost, London Times, and many other publications and TV--is vital:

Bertrand Russell discussed in his book “The Impact of Science on Society” (1952) that the subject which “will be of most importance politically is mass psychology,” that is, the lens in which an individual views “reality” and “truth.” Russell is very clear, such “convictions” are not generated by the individual themselves but rather are to be shaped by the State.

Of course, individuals are not encouraged to think about an absolute truth or reality, rather they are encouraged to think on a much smaller scale, on individual “facts,” for this is much easier to control and shape and also limits “problematic” thinking such as the ponderance on cause and effect.

Russell, in his “Impact of Science on Society,” goes on to talk about how one could program a society to think snow is black rather than white. [My Emphasis]

And isn't that exactly what we've been seeing and hearing 24/7/365 since 1992 if not earlier, with today's example merely one of thousands?!? One very important term IMO is the use of the word hybrid to describe acts of war perpetrated by the Outlaw US Empire since GHW Bush declared his New World Order in 1991, which was furthered by the admission that "we make our own reality" about a decade later. The weaponization of language is behind Putin's description of the Outlaw US Empire being an Empire of Lies, for it is the only nation propagandizing the entire world and its own population. And today Putin again notes how such manipulation is ongoing within the EU regarding energy, which I'll comment upon later.

IMO, Manufacturing Consent remains the best book on the topic; a pdf version is linked for those not having it in their library, which will facilitate its being shared with those unfamiliar with the topic--millions judging by the mass behavior we observe.

As for those unable to access Strategic Culture and thus read Chung's excellent series of essays, she does have a substack site where most of her work is archived.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 17 2022 17:34 utc | 152

"...Propaganda is where the US and western media outfits really "shine". It's slickly mixed with enough truth to make it sound realistic, it's backed up and given legitimacy by celebrities and politicians, it's disseminated widely and repeated ad nauseum..."

Posted by: darren price | May 17 2022 17:05 utc | 145

You forgot to mention the quintessential condition for this propaganda "to shine" - it has to be consumed by brainwashed morons who would find something that "sounds realistic" legitimized by no others than "celebrities and politicians."

Posted by: Pagan | May 17 2022 17:38 utc | 153

Posted by: bevin | May 17 2022 16:58 utc | 141

Sorry Bevin but a lifetime of reading that stuff has finally vaccinated me to the verbiage, I just can't read it and it's a shame. Hopefully a new generation of readers of Marx and Engels will make a better job of intepretation than the posse of academics who have made the comrades incomprehensible except to the 'initiated'.

Posted by: Barofsky | May 17 2022 17:47 utc | 154


Yes, precisely. If you cut open the 'United' Kingdom (something I'd be quite in favour of doing) you would find the word 'Empire' running through it. Right back to the initial Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, there's been nothing but war and conquest, and when they finally stopped killing each other, in the mid 18th century, they immediately pivoted to killing other people.

What can't be reformed, won't be reformed.

The 'United' Kingdom is simply too evil to be allowed to continue to exist. It needs to be split up into its four component parts.

CF also the European 'Union'.

Posted by: Hidari | May 17 2022 17:48 utc | 155

Peter AU1 @149--

Certainly, all Big Fish have schools of little fish staff to do their leg--er fin--work for them, so it stands to reason that for every general bagged a dozen staffers are too. Whatever the catch turns out to be, it will sorta look like what's displayed here.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 17 2022 17:50 utc | 156

You forgot to mention the quintessential condition for this propaganda "to shine" - it has to be consumed by brainwashed morons who would find something that "sounds realistic" legitimized by no others than "celebrities and politicians."

Posted by: Pagan | May 17 2022 17:38 utc | 152

Hmmm... no, not morons, successful propaganda always has elements of truth embedded in the mix and coupled to blanket coverage that swamps out all alternative interpretations, propaganda works, stupid or not.

Posted by: Barofsky | May 17 2022 17:53 utc | 157

BBC all of the sudden started writing about “stalled piece talks”. I guess the rumours of mass surrender of Ukrainians are not just empty talk.

Posted by: Milos | May 17 2022 17:54 utc | 158

karlof1 @ 151

I believe that when all this is over - WW3 done or some other resolution - and the correct side wins, one of the outcomes that will be imposed on the world will be the treatment of propaganda as a WMD. This means not only tools to detect it but also to enforce. For example: legislative walls around media, social networks and other mass communication (like advertising) that guarantees independence; global watchdog bodies; tribunals etc.

Posted by: alek_a | May 17 2022 18:01 utc | 159

Not an evacuation, but a moderate surrender.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | May 17 2022 18:08 utc | 160

Meeting on the development of the oil industry

Machine translation of a paragraph concerning Europe. I have to congratulate Yandex translation, Overlord, nice way to translate suzerain.

And today we see that for absolutely politically tinged reasons, because of their own ambitions and under pressure from the American overlord, European countries are imposing more and more sanctions on the oil and gas markets. All this leads to inflation. And instead of admitting their mistakes, they are looking for the guilty on the side.

Posted by: Paco | May 17 2022 18:08 utc | 161

Anonymous | May 17 2022 15:27 utc | 101

Reminds me of the Battle of the Bulge in December 1944, where a big push at the demand of Hitler ultimately only led to Germany being weakened by the losses.

Posted by: colin786 | May 17 2022 18:13 utc | 162

Hmmm... no, not morons, successful propaganda always has elements of truth embedded in the mix and coupled to blanket coverage that swamps out all alternative interpretations, propaganda works, stupid or not.

Posted by: Barofsky | May 17 2022 17:53 utc | 156

I disagree. If a person who has been the subject of outrageous lies for decades, from the first "humanitarian intervention" in Serbia, attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq, Libya etc., etc., and now even prevented from accessing alternative sources, if that person still believes what the media is presenting, that person is either pretending to believe (as many I know do) or is irredeemably stupid.

Posted by: Pagan | May 17 2022 18:14 utc | 163

Latest SitRep from the Saker.

"Russia’s lower house of parliament, the State Duma, is planning to discuss the potential withdrawal of the country from the World Trade Organization (WTO) and the World Health Organization (WHO), according to Pyotr Tolstoy, the vice speaker of the parliament.

Russia has just started the process to withdraw from Council of the Baltic Sea States.

Previously they canceled membership in the Council of Europe.

This from the site as well, a new slant on the meaning.

We are also waiting for a formal announcement that from now on, oil will also have to be paid for in Rubles.

These are major changes in our world configuration."

Posted by: Republicofscotland | May 17 2022 18:16 utc | 164

@Jen 25

Also reports that a freshly prematurely retired Canadian general, Trevor Cadieu, who was or was about to become the head of the Canadian land forces before being forced to retire over an allegation of sexual misconduct 25 years previous that came up with his appointment, was also captured.

He was reported by mainstream Canadian media to have travelled to Ukraine to volunteer for the Ukrainian forces.

Suggestions from Chinese media that both are being held in a camp in Siberia.

It's interesting since both Russia and NATO/US have an interest in keeping this quiet. (At least with Coultier, the Canadian was technically retired, no matter how recently or how highly ranked he was in the Canadian military) Neither wants events to spiral into direct conflict. Having the head of LANDCOM on the ground with the Azov no less would be a serious cause for escalation if acknowledged.

Posted by: Altai | May 17 2022 18:22 utc | 165

Paul Greenwood 63

Beautifully done; congratulations Paul! Perfect regurg of the ukstate's 'anti-independence for the Celtic nations' talking-point canards.

Stick around and watch the actual realworld reality unfold, if you're young enough. (Hint: It won't resemble your talking points at all...) :)

Posted by: Rhisiart Gwilym | May 17 2022 18:22 utc | 166

the strage thing are the numbers: >1k ukis and nazis, then >50 woundet & >500 ukis and nazis, and now only >250 that surendered... does this mean, there is a deal made? some deal from russia and nato? and the rest of the avostalist are waiting a bit longer until tehy can be transered at night and fog???

Posted by: ich | May 17 2022 18:23 utc | 167

@Posted by: bevin | May 17 2022 16:58 utc | 141

Thankyou for this, it reminds me of the work of some of my feminist/woke/intersectional scholar colleagues, who are all for the Ukro-nationalists and NATO warmongering in the case of Ukraine, but it is as close to an act of pure reification of the form that I have seen! I had to make sure that I had swallowed my coffee before reading each paragraph, otherwise a lot of screen cleaning would have been required. No wonder it took her seven weeks to write this heavy word-laden fake-left sophistry - "variegated peripheralizations", "methodological campism and nationalism", "co-constitutive dynamics of gender, race, and class", ahhhh the unneeded complexification and mystification of the English language by a "progressive" voice.

Yes, once you cut through the academic progressive crap you get a quite good description of what neoliberal capitalism has done to Ukraine and what a racist, bigoted society Ukraine is, and at the differential policies towards Ukraine's right of national sovereignty and that of Yemen and Gaza (as well as the differential treatment of refugees based on colour). But then she hits the invisible wall that no academic who wants to get/keep a cushy academic job can go beyond, that the US is a terrorist state that will broach no opponents and is the aggressor against a defensive Russia/Iran/China. Also, that especially China may be a system more beneficial to its population than "capitalist democratic liberalism".

Then the statement she had to make, just so the important people understand that she gets who butters her bread. I see this again and again in academic papers - a version of "just in case you didn't get it I am and will always be a loyal servant of the capitalist elite!"

Posted by: Roger | May 17 2022 18:24 utc | 168

alek_a @158--

Thanks for your interesting reply. One thing's certain, the 1st Amendment dealing with press freedom in light of everything including Assange's slow murder will need to be rewritten. But I must admit, the idea of a global media regulatory agency already exists within the NGOs Media Lens and FAIR, although too few know of their existence. I do believe there's enough evidence to warrant some sort of international convention aimed at producing a treaty on the issue since accurate information is vital to the proper conduct of human affairs and global environmental preservation. Of course, the West as currently constituted would do everything in its power to prevent such a treaty, but it's outvoted and can thus remain outside it and treated accordingly.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 17 2022 18:24 utc | 169

Remember how quickly the 'West's' humiliating defeat in Afghanistan was forgotten? How long did it take? A month? Less than that?

Posted by: Hidari | May 17 2022 13:47 utc | 69

A wreckless departure, yes.

But planned and agreed to a year in advance by the Trump administration with the now former Afghan goverment, it actually was.

What war fighting stuff abandoned was most likely intentionally left behind due to it mostly being outdated or unserviceable. You know, like all the mostly useless stuff being sent to the Zelensky regime. Why, in both cases? It's not hard to form an opinion once you consider where most of the U.S.'s new, $40 billion bill is earmarked for.

Posted by: ERing46Z | May 17 2022 18:29 utc | 170

Don't know if someone has already post this: Firsthand Report on AZOVSTAL Surrender, detailed and humane.

Posted by: lulu | May 17 2022 18:36 utc | 171

You know already how this farce of truth and reconcilliation will end, if ever, right?
(the incorrect answer is thermonuclear bombardment)

Posted by: sln2002 | May 17 2022 13:18 utc | 58

One way to see your incorrect answer may be found in the potential backstory for the push for Finland NATO membership.

Posted by: ERing46Z | May 17 2022 18:37 utc | 172

@167 Roger - I just read your article with the link to the young Chinese ( I think ) girl explaining the Ukraine situation by using the story of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Thank you for posting that! She has a brilliant career ahead of her as a diplomat!
Click on Roger's name to see the post. - Even a child seems to understand geopolitics better than the US State Department.

Posted by: lex talionis | May 17 2022 18:42 utc | 173

25 and 64

On a positive note, Siberia is nice this time of year. If you're from northern Canada, you'd feel right at home.

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | May 17 2022 18:44 utc | 174

"...accurate information is vital to the proper conduct of human affairs and global environmental preservation."

Posted by: karlof1 | May 17 2022 18:24 utc | 168

Michael Hudson has been (for years now) successfully debunking the western countries allegiance to 'free market' as a corruption of classical economists' views. But even these modern theories still hold that for a free market to function properly all participants must have perfect information! In today's world!

Posted by: Pagan | May 17 2022 18:46 utc | 175

@ lulu | May 17 2022 18:36 utc | 170

Remarkable! Recommended reading!

Posted by: Norwegian | May 17 2022 18:56 utc | 176

Republicofscotland @163--

What we're seeing with those actions is the usage of the Putin Doctrine--the withdrawal from no longer useful Western dominated/originated organizations and construction of new institutions that favor no nation while welcoming all nations willing to admit the equality of all nations, which is the basis for the UN Charter.

Paco @160--

Thanks for linking to that discussion led by Putin, which I'm going to use as an example of language manipulation. What follows is taken from the middle of Putin's discussion as it deals with the propaganda aspect of Europe's self-inflicted energy crisis:

And today we see that for absolutely politically colored reasonsAnd instead of admitting their mistakes, they look for the culprits on the side.

Yes, the Europeans explicitly admit that they cannot yet completely abandon Russian energy resources. It is all the more obvious that some EU states, in the energy balance of which the share of Russian hydrocarbons is particularly high, will not be able to do this for a long time. However, they set such a task, we see it. They bet without paying attention to the damage they have already done to their own economy.

One gets the impression that our Western colleagues – politicians and economists – have simply forgotten the basics of elementary, basic economic laws or, to their own detriment, prefer to deliberately ignore them.

What results do they achieve with their decisions?

First. The sanctions already adopted by our European colleagues and the declarations on the possibility of a complete rejection of Russian energy carriers in the future have led to the fact that oil prices on the spot market are rising. You know this yourself: if you say something inaccurate at the political level, that's it, it is immediately reflected in the market, instantly.

Second. The cost of petroleum products in the European market, such as, for example, diesel, due to their actual deficit, is growing even higher than oil prices. Such energy inflation – they are trying to write off this energy inflation on us, they call it by our names, they blame everything on Russia, trying to cover up, as I have already said, their own systemic mistakes in this area – this is already directly hitting transport and European industry, falling on the shoulders of consumers – millions of Europeans.

Finally, the third and most important thing. The rejection of Russian energy resources means that Europe systematically, in the long term, becomes the region with the highest cost of energy resources in the world. Yes, of course, prices here will increase, and resources will also go here, to these prices, but it will not be possible to radically change the situation. And this is in the most serious way, and, according to some experts, irrevocably can undermine the competitiveness of a significant part of the European industry, which is already increasingly losing competition to companies from other regions of the world. Now these processes will certainly be accelerated. It is obvious that along with Russian energy resources, the possibility of increasing economic activity will also leave Europe for other regions of the world.

Such economic auto-da-fé, suicide, is, of course, an internal affair of European countries. We must act pragmatically, proceeding primarily from our own economic interests. [My Emphasis]

Nothing Putin is saying is secret, even the Western media is publishing the actions of the ongoing suicide. Yet, only a few have broken the code of silence about the sanctions being the #1 cause, although there still isn't an honest reporting of why and by whom they were emplaced. Yes, Dr. Hudson has published the truth of the matter, but where are all the copycat articles based on his? All Western Media in lockstep publishes "evacuation" instead of surrender but there's no parade of Sanctions Killing Europe, Not Russia headlines. Nor of course is there any admission that the sanctions are also illegal, and in this case ought to be considered crimes against humanity all perpetrated by the Outlaw US Empire and its Neoliberal sycophants within Europe. Meanwhile, the Global South watches in amazement at the spectacle of European nations--many of which were once their colonial masters--committing mass economic suicide at the behest of their Colonial Master, the Outlaw US Empire, which leads them to make the logical choice to partner with Russia and China to avoid Europe's fate.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 17 2022 19:01 utc | 177

Pagan @174--

Thanks for your reply. Yes, Stiglitz and the need for Perfect Information, which I saw as his own effort to circumvent Neoliberal propaganda--you can't have perfect markets, let alone a free market, without perfect information, which of course is impossible to obtain since humans are imperfect; thus, the entire Neoliberal construct was tosh, bullshit, an elaborate Potemkin Village, which we now know was designed to benefit the Top Class within Colonial nations.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 17 2022 19:08 utc | 178

Posted by: Et Tu | May 17 2022 11:15 utc | 23

And you don't think that Blinken's phone call had anything to do with NATO personnel being quietly repatriated? Come on, do you have any idea how many are in Ukraine?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 17 2022 19:13 utc | 179

Russian Foreign minister Lavrov, says Sweden and Finland's entry in Nato makes no real difference to Russia.

"Russia says Finland and Sweden's potential membership in NATO would probably make no difference as the pair have long participated in the military alliance's drills along with other putative neutral countries in the region.

Finland and Sweden have officially announced their intention to become a member of NATO despite Russia's stern warnings against the US-led military alliance's eastward expansion.

Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, however, said on Tuesday that their entry into NATO would probably make no difference.

"NATO takes their territory into account when planning military advances to the east. So in this sense, there is probably not much difference," he added. "Let's see how their territory is used in practice in the North Atlantic alliance."

The foreign minister made the remarks after President Vladimir Putin said the bid by Finland and Sweden to join NATO posed no direct threat to his country but Moscow would respond if NATO bolsters military infrastructure in the two Nordic states."

Posted by: Republicofscotland | May 17 2022 19:14 utc | 180

Matilda Bogner, the head of the United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine

“We have received credible information of torture, ill-treatment and incommunicado detention by Ukrainian Armed Forces of prisoners of war belonging to the Russian armed forces and affiliated armed groups,” Bogner said, adding soldiers are “being coerced to make statements, apologies and confessions, and other forms of humiliation.”

Who didn't see this coming from the Kingdom of Enhanced Interrogation is not Torture?

Posted by: sln2002 | May 17 2022 19:17 utc | 181

In keeping with todays post....Headline from,

"Ukrainian Troops Evacuate From Mariupol, Ceding Control To Russia". When you click on the title you get,

"Ukrainian Defenders Emerge From Mariupol Ruins to Uncertain Fate as Siege Ends"

These asshats that are supposed to be 'anti-war' have been towing the Empire line for decades now. They exposed themselves big time on Syria for years, talking about 'moderate rebels', etc.
Everything in the US media is a mirage of news. Even the so-called anti-war movement can't get it right when it slaps them in the face.

Posted by: Spinworthy | May 17 2022 19:17 utc | 182

On Putin:
Posted by: karlof1 | May 17 2022 19:01 utc | 176

What Putin doesn’t say is the true calculation of the Europeans: they are willing to pay these cost near to suicide, because they really believe that a disrupted Russia à la Jugoslavia will pay it all back.

Thus the empire succeeded to make its war to a european war. Now the German and French morons have to win a war, which wasn’t theirs.

Putin knows this. But he always wants to leave a door open for this idiots. He doesn’t believe they really want it. He is an idealist.

But they want it. They want to destroy Russia, because it is the only chance for Europe left. This is where the desperation comes from.

Posted by: njet | May 17 2022 19:21 utc | 183

Just read this over at

Medvedev also hinted at potential nuclear deployments in the region. “It will no longer be possible to talk about any nuclear-free status of the Baltic – the balance must be restored,” he said.

That is why I believe Putin will put missiles in western Ukraine (and Belarus) - to balance the Aegis Ashore installations. Much more likely than unilaterally bombing them.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 17 2022 19:27 utc | 184

Posted by: Pagan | May 17 2022 18:46 utc | 174

100-year-old textbook macro: perfect information is one of a hundred or irrational conditions of perfect competition expressing price discovery at the intersection of quanity (s) and demand (p). Conversely, market failure isn't an optional topic in polite company.

Posted by: sln2002 | May 17 2022 19:32 utc | 185

@karlof1 and @Pagan

Information is scarce, especially that one which is true, relevant and actionable. We can not legislate our way against this nature of information, so what I say does not really pertain to efficient markets and other human affairs in that domain.

What I mean is the abuse of language and lingustic programming methods for ideological and economic reasons of one group against another. Take this as an operation definition of propaganda.

Posted by: alek_a | May 17 2022 19:35 utc | 186

The audience for this kind of reporting is the pro-Ukrainian twittersphere, the ones who, no matter what evidence is given them, still think that Ukraine is winning and can win this war. This is meant to edify them, to not lose heart.

It's not meant for those who live in reality.

Posted by: Lulu | May 17 2022 19:46 utc | 187


I don't have the link, but the main poster for the ironically named 'Stop' the War organisation in the UK, had, as its 'headline'

'Russians out of Ukraine!'

Just imagine for a second that the Russian anti-war movement had, as its first and most important demand 'Americans out of Ukraine!'.

They would just be laughed at. But apparently it's considered ok for a UK movement to have as its key demand that the government of a foreign power should obey its demands.

The next 'headline' was 'No Nato Expansion!'

OK fine, but that boat has sailed.

And finally there was some basic anti-war pablum. Nothing about Nazis, nothing about Donbass, nothing about the effective take over of the Ukraine by the United States such that the West of the country is now effectively an American colony.

There effectively is no anti-war movement in either the US or the UK, just as there is no left (in any meaningful sense) in either of these countries. That's just a fact. If you want to see leftism in action, go to China. If you want to see a genuine anti-war movement, go to the Global South. But the West is morally and politically and financially bankrupt.

Posted by: Hidari | May 17 2022 19:49 utc | 188

@ Altai utc 18:22

Do you not think the "retirement" date of "the Canadian" General Trevor Cadieu was a little too convenient? As soon as Cadieu was trapped in Ukraine the government in Ottawa wanted as much distance as possible between the general and Canada.

Posted by: MLSmith | May 17 2022 19:50 utc | 189

The heroes of Snake Island turned out to be fake.
The "Ghost of Kiev" turned out to be a fake.
"We will die, but we will not give up "Azov" turned out to be a fake.
And the "evacuation" turned out to be a surrender.


Posted by: xor | May 17 2022 19:54 utc | 190

Only to those whose minds are trained by mass media would reading this elicit any surprise. Anyone else who has been paying a modicum of attention would not be surprised by this. Mass media has a narrative they sell and it will got go great pains to shape words to support the narrative. The narrative isn't based on truth, it is based on popularity amongst particular media, government, corporate circles.

Posted by: Corsair66 | May 17 2022 19:55 utc | 191

... I would guess there are also more lower ranked Nato officers in the mix.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 17 2022 17:15 utc | 149

Any western military officers in Azovstal would have plenty of explaining to do, in extremity they could end up getting jail time, but their knowledge of the really heinous nazi / biolab crimes-against-humanity stuff might be limited or even nonexistent, unless their duties put them close to it.

Any western intelligence officers in Azovstal are screwed because they can’t plead ignorance. They must know the truth of nazi formations in Ukrainian oligarchic fascism and any intelligence officer worth their salt will have figured out that the biolabs are active weapon research programs.

All this seems self evident and doesn't consider the implications of the fact that some might undeniably be serving officers. How many times can a sabbatical / demob narrative be retrospectively manufactured without provoking ridicule.

On a related note, if RF lists Azov Battalion as a terrorist group, does that mean that anyone who’s supported, trained or armed them will also have committed a criminal offence?

Posted by: anon2020 | May 17 2022 19:58 utc | 192

'Bevin @ 141 stated; "She ends her piece, otherwise full of the sort of jargon designed to ensure that it is almost incomprehensible"

The above is the reason political discourse doesn't resonate with much of the public anymore.

Too many are trying to convince others how "smart" they are, as opposed to conveying information in a more simplistic form, to actually educate.

The fewer words, the better...

Posted by: vetinLA | May 17 2022 19:59 utc | 193

Sadly , I believe we will never see the trial of any warcriminal Natoists or Azovstalis. They will likely be exchanged and we will never know their identity and also only for them to return one day . Call me pessimistic but I don’t like what I see.
Posted by: Brother Ma | May 17 2022 14:21 utc | 80

LDPR know who have raped, beaten up, robbed and murdered their citizens. They will not stand by and let these criminals go. Ukies are lucky that the Russians are the ones processing them and not LDPR. Russians are professionals. RIC is on top of things, documenting everything. There is already 1 case of Ukrainian surrendering to DPR and was later found dead in Azovstal ruins.

LDPR will have a say on prosecutions. Protecting the Donbass is why the Russians invaded in the first place.

Posted by: Lulu | May 17 2022 20:05 utc | 194

Posted by: anon2020 | May 17 2022 19:58 utc | 191

yes, They can, and they will out of one side of their mouths. Out of the other, the Eichmann defense.

Posted by: sln2002 | May 17 2022 20:08 utc | 195

I think they tried to front run the news of Azovstal falling, because Russia has made no such announcement yet.

This means that the CIA knew it was on the verge of falling. So they made this article to claim it as a Ukrainian victory before it happened.

Posted by: Rhinoskerous | May 17 2022 20:09 utc | 196

regarding the NY Times, WA Post and others, the so-called mainstream media in The West has become a garbage disposal
"I did not know that there were so many ways in the English language to convey a simple message: the Azov Nazis have surrendered unconditionally" - Deputy Permanent Representative of Russia to the United Nations Dmitry Polyanskiy

11:27 AM · May 17, 2022·Twitter for Android
589 Retweets 37 Quote Tweets 2,683 Likes

Posted by: michaelj72 | May 17 2022 20:09 utc | 197

lt @ 147; LOL, dude (or dude-et) Cogent, very Cogent..

Posted by: vetinLA | May 17 2022 20:10 utc | 198

Good post by 133.

iEarlGrey (You tube channel) recently alerted us to the Rand Corporation which is a US military sponsored headbanging organisation which helps shape US policy. Their paper on “Extending Russia” dated 2019 can be found here:

Interestingly Chapter Four lists these geopolitical measures:

Lethal aid to Ukraine
Increase support to Syrian Rebels
Promote regime change in Belarus
Exploit tensions in South Caucasus (Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan)
Reduce Russian influence in Central Asia (e.g. China)
Challenge Russian influence in Moldova (Transnistria)

We have all seen these over the recent months, which is how we know they are US policy. I guess someone forgot to mention that this is publicly available to Russians too. So, they have had time to plan.

The war studies PhD wonk who wrote this is giving it large here (for your amusement):

The “extending Russia” policy objectives are to economically stress Russia by:
1. Expanding US energy production to reduce the price of oil
2. Promote renewables to reduce dependency on oil
3. Promote sanctions on Russia involving the EU and US

The Donald certainly followed 1, but largely because it helped the US economy. Under Dopey Joe, the vested interests of the Democratic party have ensured 2 has become the priority. Unfortunately, he went too green and also reduced the oil supply by revoking oil leases and cancelling pipeline infrastructure, resulting in significant increases in the price of oil.

In my mind, this makes clear that each of the three parts of the above objectives actually work against each other. If the oil price is reduced renewables need more subsidy making them less tenable (not a Democratic Party favourite). If oil prices rise it does favour renewables but Russia cashes in. Of course, sanctions have also served to increase the price of oil and so work against 1. Russia has not been extended.

Only a desk bound wonk could think this up. But let’s be fair, if he had promoted less aggressive objectives his sponsors would have ensured his unemployment.

The obvious weakness is that the US does not control the price of oil as required by objective 1. Objective 2 is too tied up with vested interests of the Democratic Party and is extending the US budget, not Russia’s. Under 3, sanctions have hurt the EU and the US more than Russia, as they have worked to increase the price of commodities including oil, which favours Russia.

Also, the Chinese have looked aghast at the theft of Russian gold deposits and the sanctions, conscious that they sit on over $1 trillion of US Treasuries, pushing China closer to Russia than ever before.

Elsewhere, the Russians have hired Armenians to help their cause bringing the south Caucasus closer to Russia and there was a brief attempt to involve Transnistria by blowing up their radio tower but that fizzled.

Pretty much everything in Chapter 4 has failed in its objectives and worst of all Dopey Joe is still POTUS and the Rand Corporation is still in business.

The unexpected turn of events was that Ukraine could continue to lob mortars provided by lethal aid into Donetsk killing civilians, without a Russian response. The Russian response demonstrates the fragility, even failure, of the “extending Russia” policy and associated geopolitical measures.

Commentators read a lot about the MSM and the swamp but these are first and foremost capitalists. They were not happy that The Donald won the 2016 election without spending anything on the MSM. This disrupted their business model and ultimately led to the Twitter ban. Neither the swamp nor the MSM got paid off during his tenure.

Of the $40bn down as aid for Ukraine, much will end up as research grants, payments for soft journalists, payments to military enablers to promote US weapons, biological weapons research and some will make their way into renewables and other projects. The NYT of course gave a timely reminder to the Democrats that Hunter Biden’s hard drive is real. I suspect this will have been the driver behind the $40bn aid for Ukraine (it’s for Ukraine not to Ukraine). The NYT has a lot of mouths to feed and a large slice would be much appreciated (just in case you wondered why NYT suddenly changed their opinion about the hard drive). The MSM only sing from the same hymn sheet when they are paid to, journalists have to eat.

So summarising, the “extending Russia” playbook is effectively busted with no Plan B. The EU are left with an economic mess. In the UK, Boris Johnson has chosen unequivocal support for Dopey Joe instead of his EU neighbours which might be his downfall. He is keeping his party support in place by smoke and mirrors with a recession waiting in the wings.

The last trick was a photo opportunity of BJ with Zelensky while Z was still newsworthy, which had a very short shelf life. The current trick is will BJ call an early election to avoid a recession?

BJ does appear to have some shelf life but the quality of these people matches that of the Rand Corporation.

Posted by: Pipedream | May 17 2022 20:11 utc | 199

semantics and circumlocution by: Paul@8

Here's one: deconfliction by: sln2002@14

Here is another prfect example: AP: ... gunman in deadly attack at California church was Chinese immigrant motivated by hate for Taiwanese people.

The FACT is the gun man is an American from Taiwan, who actually had done his military service in Taiwan before came to US.

NYT, BBC, CNN, WaPo & Co are really master of spinning and propogandist of the Empire!

Posted by: lulu | May 17 2022 20:20 utc | 200

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