Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 17, 2022

Ukraine - For Laughs

'Western' media are nothing but Zelenski regime megaphones.

Liveuamap @Liveuamap - 21:30 UTC · May 16, 2022
Zelensky confirms Azovstal troops evacuation: «Ukraine needs Ukrainian heroes alive. This has been our principle» via @myroslavapetsa
The New York Times @nytimes - 22:59 UTC · May 16, 2022
Breaking News: Ukraine ended its “combat mission” in Mariupol and said fighters were being evacuated, signaling that the battle at a steel plant was over.
CNN International @cnni - 23:39 UTC · May 16, 2022
Ukrainian forces say they have ended their "combat mission" in besieged Mariupol, as hundreds are evacuated from the Azovstal steel plant.
Reuters @Reuters - 3:35 AM · May 17, 2022
Ukraine's military said it was working to evacuate all remaining troops from their last stronghold in the besieged port of Mariupol, ceding control of the city to Russia after months of bombardment

From the false headline down the Washington Post report on the issue is a master piece of propaganda:

Ukraine ends bloody battle for Mariupol, evacuates Azovstal fighters

Ukrainian fighters have ended their weeks-long defense of a besieged steel plant in the strategic port city of Mariupol, as hundreds of combatants — dozens of them seriously wounded — were evacuated from the complex Monday.

One has to read beyond 323 words of falsehood to find out, down in paragraph 7, what really has happened.

Moscow hasn’t yet publicly responded to the developments in Mariupol, which were described by Russian state media as an order from Ukrainian military command for its troops to “surrender.”

Ukraine’s deputy defense minister, Anna Malyar, said 53 seriously wounded soldiers were taken to a hospital in Novoazovsk, a nearby town which is controlled by Russian-backed separatists. Another 211 were transported to another Russian-aligned village, Olenivka, she said. Moscow and Kyiv are brokering a prisoner swap to secure their release.

Malyar said officials were still working to rescue the remaining soldiers, though it is unclear how many are still inside. Ukrainian authorities said last week there were nearly 1,000 holdout fighters in the plant.

The f***ers finally gave up and surrendered unconditionally to the Russian forces as their only alternative was to decease within the next hours or days.

I am sure that the Russian authorities will apply a fine filter to determine who of those prisoners of war are allegeable for war crime prosecutions, de-nazification and a long stay in some north Siberian road builder camp.

There are also rumors of NATO personnel presence in the Azovstal catacombs. They will likely get to know the cellars of the famous Lubyanka building in Moscow before being exchanged in this or that deal with their home countries.

The rest will eventually be exchanged for Russian soldiers who are unfortunately held by the Ukrainian military.

Posted by b on May 17, 2022 at 9:18 UTC | Permalink

« previous page | next page »
What I would ask the author is if the EU is in a position to make concessions, I don't think so, the EU's position is to obey orders, from we know who.

Posted by: Paco | May 17 2022 16:58 utc | 140

Paco, I would ask you
Is "the EU" in position NOT TO MAKE concessions?
The EU is a political clique but "the EU", "We The People" is in fine 330 millions inhabitants.

Posted by: La Bastille | May 17 2022 20:21 utc | 201

@ 198; Good synopsis, thanks..

Posted by: vetinLA | May 17 2022 20:21 utc | 202

Peter AU1 @149
karlof1 @155

On bunker holdouts, it seems Zelensky's tactical rescue-evacuation maneuvers will continue. A larger kettle of the biggest fish, sharks, may still lurk in the deep.

From b's post, WaPo: "Ukrainian authorities said last week there were nearly 1,000 holdout fighters in the plant". Today, Southfront also notes:

On May 17, a Russian military reporter in Mariupol claimed that as of May 16, there were over 2.5 thousand AFU servicemen in the industrial zone, 404 of them were wounded. 55 servicemen were seriously injured. 200 corpses of dead fighters were frozen in refrigerators. [so not starving yet :-{ ]
In total, 804 members of the Azov nationalist regiment were hiding in Azovstal...

The military reporter added that the decision was made not to comment on the situation in Azovstal. The officials claims will be made by the Russian Ministry of Defence.

If there are NATO honchos at Avostal, they'll be among those holdouts. As Martanyov wrote in his blog yesterday, "FSB is having its hands full "processing" homicidal criminals from Azov and their Western 'colleagues'. Prepare for some big stories."

Posted by: Doug Hillman | May 17 2022 20:29 utc | 203

More about the Azov battalion and commander trapped in #azovstal

Members of the National Corps tried to break into Poroshenko HQ in Cherkasy

UA/RU Members of the National Corps tried to break through to Poroshenko in Cherkasy. Tear gas and explosive packages: Hundreds of members of the National Corps staged a rally in central Kiev. First, a 2-hour protest was held on Independence Square. They demanded to arrest the participants of the scandal concerning theft in the defense. Then they moved to the Presidential Administration. Then they went by bus to Cherkasy - there were also clashes and casualties. Issue of TSN.19: 30 for March 9, 2019

Posted by: Oui | May 17 2022 20:29 utc | 204

Posted by: ostro | May 17 2022 15:59 utc | 112

History tells us in this trash removal police action by Russia. Very few UAF officers above the rank of Major. Have been caught by the good guys.

It would appear that the so called senior officers of the current country 404 military. Come equipped with six reverse gears and one forward gear. They sure do runaway quicker then the Italian forces did in the the Libyan desert during WW2...... lol

Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | May 17 2022 20:32 utc | 205

Azov Commander Svyatoslav Palamar

Soldiers of the Azov Armed Forces - Sviatoslav Palamar, friend of KALINA, Deputy Commander of the Azov Regiment: It is very important that there are officers in key positions in the Army who are capable of aggressive actions, have courage and something between the legs

And where did you study and grow up?

I am Galician, I was born in a small town near Lviv, where I spent my childhood until my student years.


Posted by: Oui | May 17 2022 20:33 utc | 206

So when police raid a crackhouse and arrest everyone, the term for that is an 'evacuation'?

Posted by: Figleaf23 | May 17 2022 20:35 utc | 207

After military service, I trained at the International Peacekeeping Training Center [link:] [Yavoriv military base near Lviv a NATO PfP center] where I was a contractor. 89th Airmobile Brigade [link:] had experience in handling weapons, some tactics at a minimum level and believed that I may be needed at this time, because I took the Oath of Allegiance.

NATO PfP center:

Posted by: Oui | May 17 2022 20:38 utc | 208

alek_a @185--

Thanks for your further reply! I understood your initial meaning; however, I do think it's possible to mitigate most of the bullshit and conduct relations honestly, which is the main reason why Russia continues to stand by its financial commitments--it took a great deal of effort to overcome the Soviet Stigma to be seen as an honest broker. Look at the Outlaw US Empire's reputation after 20+ years of overt fabrications, falsehoods, and serial prevarications--behavior that actually predates Washington's cherry tree to the lies constructed to tell the stories of Jamestown, The Pilgrims, the Mayflower, and Thanksgiving that led to the commercialization of everything once deemed Holy and Sacrosanct, and ultimately resulted in all Westernized parents lying to their innocent children--Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc. And the biggest whopper of all--that it's proper behavior to share, which is immediately falsified once Western societal behavior's observed by children.

Yes, the Muck is very deep and difficult to free oneself from. There was once honor and honesty, but both are now nearly extinct.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 17 2022 20:39 utc | 209

James @ 109,

The public(s), to a large extent - especially those partisans on 'progressive left' side of the Murican political scene - have no sense of inquiry.. hence the profusion of yellow/blue flag adornments .. minus the azov/neo-nazi symbology. This observation from a former pre-2008 blu-aisle voter.

Propaganda to the Nth degree - works like charm!

Posted by: polecat | May 17 2022 20:45 utc | 210

@lulu (199)

The ethno-historic situation in Taiwan is actually stunningly similar to that in Ukraine.

There are sizable minorities who consider themselves Chinese on one side and "Taiwanese" on the other side The plurality in the middle don't care to be under Beijing's rule, but don't have strong feelings towards formal independence. No one, historically, at least, really wants to talk aloud about independence as a serious topic because it will blow things up, but the opposing minorities have been gaining strength lately since some sort of final status decision seems nearing.

Then there's the historical baggage--also similar to Ukraine. Pro-China people mostly came with Chiang Kai Shek from the mainland after WW2. (Although there are important exceptions). Majority of the population in Taiwan, however, came from earlier waves of migrants from mainland who enjoyed semi independent status for centuries (if only because imperial rule was difficult to enforce), then came under Japanese rule between 1895 and 1945.
The similarity deepens when you consider the Chinese attitude towards Japan, esp in WW2 context, is quite similar to that of Russians against Nazis, but this is not the view shared by the "Taiwanese"--Japanese rule is remembered as harsh, but fair and efficient, while that of the mainlanders (in form of Chiang Kai Shek's government) was both brutal and corrupt, especially in the early years. (I am not saying that these are "true," as tons of stuff can be brought up on both sides if one starts getting into the details, but I'm saying that these are the beliefs widely held).

While the remnants of the Chiang Kai Shek government used to be deeply hostile to Beijing, things have changed rather dramatically in the past 30 years or so: pro-China people would increasingly rather be under Beijing's rule if that is the alternative to not being "Chinese" any more. Making things more complicated is that these folks are disproportionately represented in the Taiwanese military, legacy of their role in the old government and the hostility of the "Taiwanese" (that is avidly pro independence minority) towards military (for same reason).

So, like Ukraine, two strong minorities with incompatible senses of identity with a large chunk in the middle who want to maintain status quo, and even the association between the pro China crowd with the old authoritarian government and the pro independence crowd with the "democratic" activism in the past. Dangerous mixture that could blow up badly if mishandled.

Posted by: hk | May 17 2022 20:46 utc | 211

@ Milos | May 17 2022 15:22 utc | 100 Re:

"UK left EU on Washington orders."


And there was me thinking that there was a referendum on the matter. Even more strange I seem to remember that almost the entire UK media (including the BBC) were pushing the remain position and all the polls were predicting a huge remain victory. I also seem to remember Obama coming over to the UK to recommend that we stayed in the EU.

I know that memory can play some funny tricks but after reading your post I am wondering if I urgently need psychiatric attention ... ............. or perhaps there is another explanation for the discrepancy.

Posted by: MarkU | May 17 2022 20:47 utc | 212

How's that EU subsidarity/infringment/rule of law thingie going?

6 months ago: Poland hit with record €1M daily fine in EU rule-of-law dispute

The decision comes at a decisive moment in the years-long conflict between Brussels and Warsaw over the rule of law, as the European Commission is looking into how to use different forms of financial pressure to make the Polish government reverse some of its contested judiciary reforms. The fine is the highest daily penalty the Court of Justice of the European Union has put on an EU member state in its history. ...

today: Brussels set to approve Polish recovery plan: more Whitemail
Warsaw and Brussels have been locked into a lengthy dispute over the independence of the country's judiciary, which has delayed the approval of Poland's [€ 36B] share of the bloc's pandemic recovery fund, equivalent to €36 billion in grants and loans.

The EU set out three conditions for approval: Dismantling a controversial disciplinary chamber for judges; reforming the disciplinary regime; and reinstating dismissed judges. ... also unblock EU endorsement of a global deal on a minimum corporate tax rate, which Poland has been blocking. ..."The EU and the U.S. must show leadership by expeditiously implementing the ["]global["] minimum tax in our domestic laws," U.S. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen said in Brussels today, after a visit to Warsaw on Monday during which she raised the issue.

Posted by: sln2002 | May 17 2022 20:50 utc | 213

Posted by: Pipedream | May 17 2022 20:11 utc | 198

An interesting comment.

Then again , I would investigate why said oil leases were cancelled by Sleepy Joe.

The one in Alaska "Cook Inlet" is on the very edge of the "Pacific Ring of Fire". With all those quakes and earth fault lines. The prospect for finding any oil is near zero. As for the the other one. In the Gulf of Mexico. How soon we forget the "BP Horizon Disaster".

Next , do you know how long, it would take to start a new oil field from discovery to full scale production???????????????

Finally "Peak oil was in 2002. The world's total oil production has been in steady decline since then. Were it not, for the production of Canadian Tar Sands Oil. Supplying in excess of 50% of the Yankees consumption. The USA would have been running on fumes from the very depleted Alaska North Slope, Texas and California Oil fields.


Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | May 17 2022 20:52 utc | 214

The Brexiteers did not need an order from the Empire. To remain in the EU means to accept franco-german dominance of this club. Or, even worse, german dominance alone. They left it to fight it.

Posted by: njet | May 17 2022 20:55 utc | 215

Posted by: NemesisCalling | May 17 2022 18:08 utc | 159

Not an evacuation, but a moderate surrender.

[thanks for that! :-)]

With a minor edit: "Not an evacuation, but a moderate-rebel surrender."

Slightly pregnant...

Posted by: Seer | May 17 2022 20:57 utc | 216

A Finnish company thinks it can escape the gas for rubles only issue for unfriendly nations, which as an EU member it most certainly qualifies:

"Finland’s state-run energy provider Gasum said it won’t accept Moscow’s demand to pay in rubles for gas supplies. The company has announced its plans to take Gazprom Export, a subsidiary of the Russian state-owned energy giant Gazprom, to arbitration to settle the dispute."

Finland as an EU member is an abettor to massive theft of Russian assets and is in no position to challenge Gazprom's wise choice, which is mandated by state decree.

All EU nations must come to terms with the reality that their utter fealty to the Outlaw US Empire will eventually see them having to use rubles to purchase anything Russian. That they fail to see they've done this to themselves is most unfortunate. Too few are willing to follow Hungary's lead out of the Group-Think Corral into the freedom of the open plain.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 17 2022 21:05 utc | 217

The EU is a political clique

Posted by: La Bastille | May 17 2022 20:21 utc | 200

You may think the EU is a clique, but you'll find that only a smallish minority would vote for a Frexit. Even Le Pen has understood that. After seeing what happened with Brexit. And the same goes for the other 26. So hardly a clique.

Posted by: laguerre | May 17 2022 21:10 utc | 218

Posted by: hk | May 17 2022 20:46 utc | 210

Are you a recent graduate of the Rodion Ebbighausen School of African and Oriental Studies?

Posted by: sln2002 | May 17 2022 21:23 utc | 219

Professionell video footage from the Mariupol harbor. Interesting to see some buildings destroyed but the harbor itself and its cranes etc are fully intact. Precision strikes of a SMO:

Posted by: njet | May 17 2022 21:24 utc | 220

These asshats that are supposed to be 'anti-war' have been towing the Empire line for decades now.

Posted by: Spinworthy | May 17 2022 19:17 utc | 181

Did you mean following the line? How do you tow and follow the line at the same time? Maybe toeing?

Posted by: RJB | May 17 2022 21:26 utc | 221

Some whiz kids wrote this 2019 blueprint for the Rand Corp on how to weaken Russia. I wonder if these overpaid twits ever considered the predictable consequences if the US followed through with their suggestions?

Posted by: Krypton | May 17 2022 21:29 utc | 222


I don't follow. History, at least the official version (of whichever side) is written by those with an axe to grind. Even if "our" side (whoever "our" side is) has axes that "we" like more, we do need to at least understand other sides' axes to make sense of what's going on in the world.

Posted by: hk | May 17 2022 21:31 utc | 223

Israel has proposed that a new pipeline be built for gas transit from its offshore fields to southern Europe. The actual route proposal was not mentioned in the rt article other than through Turkey but I’m guessing that Ukraine could be their planned end point. If built , then the gas from Israel would supply their new desired Khazarian populations. They probably would want to link into the existing Ukrainian transit lines and then hold EU hostage to this supply after forcing Russian gas out. Israel has been scheming for years to get this gas field up and running and to become the major supplier for the region.

Posted by: Obamavirus | May 17 2022 21:36 utc | 224

Peter AU1 #149

One General was caught trying to evacuate as a civilian, another two on pics/video with this current surrender and two more of Kayrov's big fish have not been seen as yet. Possibly Russia now has them or they may still be in the bunkers. I would guess there are also more lower ranked Nato officers in the mix.

As I recall there were one or two prize survivors from the great escape when the choppers were downed. On board were the elite first I would assume.

So what did the body ID reveal or has no wreckage been recovered? Perhaps this is not revealed.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 17 2022 21:36 utc | 225

Posted by: MarkU | May 17 2022 20:47 utc | 211

You should know better Mark.
“The connectivity that is the heart of globalisation can be exploited by states with hostile intent to further their aims.[…] The risks at stake are profound and represent a fundamental threat to our sovereignty.”
Alex Younger, head of MI6, December, 2016
Remember Cambridge Analytica, Robert Mercer and others. This was all orchestrated by the US deep state.

Posted by: Milos | May 17 2022 21:40 utc | 226

I was trying to check financial news, and on the Comcast-NBC finance site CNBC, I saw a headline reading "Mariupol's fate in limbo after steelworks evacuation; ".

"in limbo"?????

The whole city had of course been liberated from the Nazi's several week's ago, with only this crowd in their Fuhrer's bunkers under the steel mill. I've been seeing stories (on Russian sites) of aid and food being delivered, of medical aid there, of people coming out of their basements happy the Nazis are gone, and recently a story about the lights coming back on. Now, I don't trust the Russian news either, I'm sure they are not committed to telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. But, it makes more sense than the stuff America's financial markets are apparently supposed to believe on Comcast News.

Apparently CNBC thinks that people just can't live without their Nazi's close by, and now that the dead-enders are crawling out of their Fuhrer's bunkers and surrendering, the only possible result is a 'city in limbo'. How can these people possibly live without their Nazi's?

A city that was liberated weeks ago is now 'in limbo'. I wouldn't believe this stuff in yet another comic book movie.

Posted by: Hound | May 17 2022 21:43 utc | 227

MarkU @211
Milos we await your answer.

laguerre, what has happened to the UK cannot realistically be blamed on its leaving the EU. Though the case would be an easy one for propagandists to make in an atmosphere in which opposition to either the EU or NATO us seen as close to treason.
In fact not only are there very viable commercial and economic alternatives to remaining in the EU but examining them is likely to become more attractive as the economies of the bloc begin to succumb to the consequences of following orders from Washington.
And that is to say nothing of the decline in democratic options within the EU and the growth of centralised authoritarianism.
The EU never was an either/or question. There were worse alternatives to remaining in the EU, but there were far better ones too. Many 'remainers' and voted for the EU as a lesser evil that the reactionary forces longing to be married to Washington.
The only viable option for the British is to choose independence, democracy, and socialism shape their own future and invest in themselves. It is a process which begins by treating the architects of the new and clearly farcical, Cold War with contempt and recognising the Ukrainian regime for what it is-a preview of the future that the ruling class has for the working people of Europe.

Posted by: bevin | May 17 2022 21:43 utc | 228

uncle tungsten | May 17 2022 21:36 utc | 224

One of the survivors was a door gunner apparently and I think the other was one of the wounded being evacuated. I recall some of the bodies looked to have bandages. I think one of the survivors said they were ferrying ammunition in and evacuating some of the wounded out which appeared to be the case.

Video of one of the crash sites.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 17 2022 21:57 utc | 229

Posted by: Altai | May 17 2022 16:09 utc | 117

The more info that comes out it seems to me that there was a NATO control centre at Avostel. Obviously a very good place for an HQ- nuclear proof bunker etc, and very close to Crimea.

The efforts to protect it and to save personnel were ridiculously large, indicating that the site had very high value.

Now the big fish named in most cases are "retired"" admirals and generals ie they have plausible deniability as being actually part of the military - except of course for Cloutier. I find it very hard to believe that a retired admiral would go off to be a mercenary, unless the pay was in the millions or he was in fact not retired at all.

There may also of course be a bioweapons lab, or even a nuke. We will see.

However the surrender of the site is in fact very significant, since firstly it gives Russia complete control of the sea of AZOV and it is a sure sign of NATO giving up on the Donesk .

The recent report of 16,000 UA surrounded/surrender actually makes sense and was sort of predicted yesterday by DPA. He commented that it looked like the cauldron was closing, but said that the UA troops would be sure to retreat to somewhere where there was food and other supplies. It seems as if they did not retreat and have decided to surrender (or some of them have. 16,000 seems like a huge number. Many of them will be conscripts of course (not war criminals) and could perhaps go home (not yet) or perhaps put to work (with pay but also close supervision) rebuilding areas bombed by the UA. Treat this 16,000 well and there will be a huge boost to denazification.

Posted by: watcher | May 17 2022 22:03 utc | 230

Posted by: spudski | May 17 2022 17:02 utc | 143

Thanks for the memories.

For the non-Canadians in the bar, Steven Truscott was a fourteen year old Ontario boy convicted of the 1959 rape and murder of his classmate Lynn Harper.

This Hour Had Seven Days was a boundary pushing CBC television program that ran an hour long expose of the case. All I understood of the issues was that a boy slightly older than I was to be hanged for riding his bicycle.

Truscott's case went through repeated appeals and his conviction was confirmed by Canada's Supreme Court in 1967. A subsequent Ontario Court of Appeal hearing acquitted Truscott in 2007. The aquittal derived from the fact the medical report on the time of death had been fixed to support the crime charged.

Posted by: Sushi | May 17 2022 22:06 utc | 231

Declan Hayes's essay today is in-tune with the surface topic of b's--propaganda--but he looks at it from a differing perspective--demographics- where he begins his assault thusly in "NATO’s War on Truth":

"Although Snake Island, the Ghost of Kiev and a million other NATO lies over Ukraine could be wheeled out to show NATO is a serial liar, NATO has a much greater lie afoot.

"That lie is that NATO is only at war with Russia (Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Palestine, Venezuela, Iran etc etc) and not also against all of us." [My Emphasis]

I'll admit I'm becoming a fan of Hayes's journalistic style as he seems to be an Objectivist like myself. The way he goes about proving his premise involves the reader; I'd be very interested in feedback from our Irish barflies. There's a deep growl in his prose voice that's rare nowadays. This paragraph while amusing conveys a truth we see at MoA all too often:

"Matt Le Tissier’s problem is that NATO produce too many fifth rate spies chasing too few free lunches. Gone are the days of small numbers of elite Oxbridge spies and in are the Walmart spooks, legions of semi-literate stenographers paid to push NATO’s improbable line."

NATO certainly is the enemy of everything good and true and of the people trying to advance such goals. That is, it's part of the ongoing Class War and no friend of humanity.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 17 2022 22:11 utc | 232

Pagan | May 17 2022 18:46 utc | 174
" can't have perfect markets, let alone a free market, without perfect information, which of course is impossible..."

karlof1 | May 17 2022 19:08 utc | 177

"Tosh" indeed. Neoliberal/neoclassical econonomics promotes thoroughly rigged markets, captured by nonproductive aristocratic rentiers who fence the commons, steal the commonwealth, monopolize money supply. As Hudson says, this inverts classical economic theory of a "free market", which invested in essential commonwealth (infrastructure) and eliminated the burden of monopoly economic rent. Neoclassical economics is the polar perversion of a healthy productive economy (like just about everything with a "neo" prefix).

At the national level, apart from militarism, ISTM, there's no better exemplar of the free market lie than the US health-care/pharmaceutical rackets, which are intrinsically information-opaque and impervious to competition, by design. It's why Americans spend 2.5 times per capita the amount that civilized societies pay, with worse outcomes (last time I looked we ranked 20th on par with Slovenia). The reason Medicare-for-all is strictly taboo is because healthcare/pharma political bribes run a close second to those of the merchants of death so dedicated to protecting the sacred borders of Ukraine.

Global "free"-marketeering is worse of course---outright robbery and piracy by the Outlaw Empire. The supreme hypocrite-champion of freedom and liberal democracy imposes arbitrary illegal sanctions on any "sovereign" country unwilling to submit to rape and pillage. And if sanctions don't work, it proceeds to regime-change, assassinations and war. It's disgusting in the extreme. This is why I'm so hopeful and inspired by Russia and China's clearly articulated worldview and their determination to end the current rank world odor --- by whatever means necessary

Posted by: Doug Hillman | May 17 2022 22:16 utc | 233

@ 141 bevin...

thanks for that first article.. it is quite good and worth others to read...

spudski | May 17 2022 17:02 utc | 143

thanks.. i agree with you..

@ lex talionis | May 17 2022 17:08 utc | 147

thanks lex! that was more then you usually say or offer!! i hope all is well with you..

@ polecat | May 17 2022 20:45 utc | 209

it is almost like the death of the inquisitive mind!!! people are happy to swallow pablum served up in the msm without question!

@ Sushi | May 17 2022 22:06 utc | 230

sounds like you are a canuck!!

Posted by: james | May 17 2022 22:36 utc | 234

@karlof1 208

What you mention is a bit too traditionalist for my tastes but I get your meaning. We used to have religion in the past that proscribed norms and values but today we dont have that anymore, it is substituted with propaganda. I am not religious but respect those that are and have goodness in their hearths even if I dont believe.

“Soldiers at Azovstal are evacuated after ending their mission”

How does linguistic programming work here a.k.a. the reason it angers us so much.

The statement is in fact true if you look at it as a sequence of words. They are evacuated, and they have indeed ended their mission. So what is the problem then we ask? Why are we angered by a truth? How can there be two opposing truths coexisting about this particular sequence of events? The one above and the one we know as simply “They surrendered”.

You can call it obfuscation or a misdirection about events or facts that happened in physical reality. But what is that?

The matter is solved by accounting for the way our minds deal with truths. We have constructs in our heads to give meaning to certain words. E.g. the meaning of “surrender” being one. Something is “true” in our minds if it falls unequivocally within a construct when linguistically communicated to us.

What happens with the statement above has two nested misdirections.

One is direct, connecting the word “evacuate” to a construct different from surrender. Or at least trying in the more intelligent/critical recipients of this message to sow doubt whether it is evacuation (by helicopters Rambo style) or some form of mild surrender.

The second is indirect. “Ending the mission” is supposed to connect to the constructs of “mission accomplished” or some other form of successful resolution. This is then in some of the headlines strengthened by “finalized their tasks”.

So, they have searched for phrases describing the event that are true on the face of it (the truth has a ring to it) but also maximally close to “success” and simulatenosuly as far away from “surrender”.

All this for the purpose of manufacturing consent (yes thats where this is coming from) in one group for the selfish purposes of another group that is costing innocent lives.

This is of course - in my view - deeply unethical and as I mentioned maybe in the future criminal act of phycological abuse. They also do it in advertising. I believe that should also be reigned in. Its a tool in the hands of the few that is as dangerous and destructive as a nuke.

Note that this works differently than when dealing with truths from mathematics or physics where we are talking about truths outside our sphere of experience. What we call objective reality does not lend itself to subjective interpretation in mind constructs. A triangle has 3 vertices is true no matter how you look at it.

Posted by: alek_a | May 17 2022 22:43 utc | 235

Posted by: sln2002 | May 17 2022 11:35 utc | 28

A short trip to WIKI for historical context shows how ludicrously arbitrary is Western application of the "Geneva Convention," for instance, the 1929 version in effect at the end of WWII.

Using the same logic that Germany used to justify employment of Polish POWs as slave labor during the war, the US and UK unilaterally revoked POW status for 7.6 million German POWs at war's end. The US nomenclature was "Disarmed Enemy Forces [DEF]," that of the UK was "Surrendered Enemy Personnel [SEP]." With this change of nomenclature, they absolved themselves of providing adequate food and housing for the POWs/DEF/SEP in their care.

With no Allied POWs any longer hostage in German custody, the results were predictably horrendous. The US banned the Red Cross from even distributing food in US prison camps. The number of Germans that died in US custody is still debated, although, overall, 1.5 million former German POWs are still declared "missing."

I get a feeling that the "Geneva Convention" is another ostensibly international institution, like the UN, the OECD, OSCE, WTF, ICC, captured, subverted and manipulated by the US and turned into a low-intensity-conflict tar-baby for anyone who tries to play by the rules.

Posted by: aij | May 17 2022 22:46 utc | 236

Posted by: RJB | May 17 2022 21:26 utc | 220

Yes indeed RJB, "toeing" is correct for the intended phrase.

But when Antiwar talks out of 'both sides of its mouth', eg peace on one side and shielding the Empire's narrative from the other, perhaps it is more accurately,

'Trolling the Line'

Posted by: Spinworthy | May 17 2022 22:52 utc | 237

"Israel has proposed that a new pipeline be built for gas transit from its offshore fields to southern Europe. ...I’m guessing that Ukraine could be their planned end point... then the gas from Israel would supply their new desired Khazarian populations."

Obamavirus | May 17 2022 21:36 utc | 223

Rhetorical question: would that be from Israel's gas fields, Gaza's much larger gas fields, or both? I smell big profits, the best kind, ill-gotten ones.

Posted by: Doug Hillman | May 17 2022 22:52 utc | 238

Soooooooooo... Julian Assange, will he be evacuated to the USA?

To evacuate = to take a prisoner and bring him to another country to face court.

Posted by: Olivier | May 17 2022 22:54 utc | 239

Joe Biden referring to the shooting event in Buffalo USA says: " ‘white supremacy is a poison’....
and "condemned those who spread white supremacist lies “for power, political gain and for profit”

What a massive hypocrite, he wants to send $40billion to Ukraine to help neo-Nazis. All so America can profit, gain, dominate the world, and also save his own political ass at the midterms.

Posted by: George Wendell | May 17 2022 22:54 utc | 240


"That lie is that NATO is only at war with Russia (Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Palestine, Venezuela, Iran etc etc) and not also against all of us." [My Emphasis]

Yes, that is exactly what is happening. A war of the few against the people of this Earth. Using the tool of propagnda a.k.a. linguistic programming. It changed the world in ways similar to the inventionof gunpowder or nautical navigation.

Posted by: alek_a | May 17 2022 22:56 utc | 241

Rhetorical question: would that be from Israel's gas fields, Gaza's much larger gas fields, or both? I smell big profits, the best kind, ill-gotten ones.

Posted by: Doug Hillman | May 17 2022 22:52 utc | 237

A lot of that gas is under Lebanese territorial waters too. Small wonder Israel wants to keep both Gaza and Lebanon as powerless hellholes.

Posted by: malenkov | May 17 2022 23:01 utc | 242

Posted by: bevin | May 17 2022 21:43 utc | 227

Ah yes, another exposition of Socialism in One Country. I thought that died with Tony Benn. Nobody else seems keen on Brexit in practice, except for the far right nutters who hold Johnson and his government in thrall.

Posted by: laguerre | May 17 2022 23:07 utc | 243

The Mighty Wurlitzer does seem to be running out of steam. Word has it that there's an organ grinder shortage, but plenty of dancing monkeys. I think it's a supply chain issue.

Posted by: Immaculate deception | May 17 2022 23:08 utc | 244

Posted by: Republicofscotland | May 17 2022 14:10 utc | 74

The article you linked said, via Yandex translation, that "More than 15 thousand Ukrainian soldiers and mercenaries ended up in a cauldron near Severodonetsk and Lisichansk." As of yet, they are far from prisoners.

Posted by: aij | May 17 2022 23:16 utc | 245

Posted by: Anders | May 17 2022 16:14 utc | 122

Who can laugh at the misery of of the innocent poor people of Ukraine is inhuman!!
Who can sympathize with mass murdering invaders is satanic.

"Piss off!" Said I.

Posted by: Mongo | May 17 2022 23:28 utc | 246

Posted by: aij | May 17 2022 23:16 utc | 244

From the image at Defence Politics Asia, the area where they are trapped is essentially bare earth/grass, with no scope for food or supplies. No buildings or store rooms. Assuming it is the same cauldron of course.

Posted by: watcher | May 17 2022 23:28 utc | 247

Posted by: alek_a | May 17 2022 22:43 utc | 234

The statement is in fact true if you look at it as a sequence of words.

Sorry, but I do not buy it. You are playing with the words. A sequence of words has something to do with reality. A lie cannot equate truth. Evacuating does not mean being taken prisoner. Evacuated by whom and to where? Which mission? Lies by omission. Lies by using words out of context.

Posted by: Olivier | May 17 2022 23:39 utc | 248

Everyday my hatred for the West grows. I am tired of the mass media dishonesty, of the hypocrisy, of the Orwellian speak, and of the untrustworthiness. The Azov Nazis SURRENDERED to the Russians. The Russians didn't EVACUATE them. If the willingly retarded West wants to understand what an evacuation means they can see examples of it during floods and hurricanes.

Posted by: Prometheus | May 17 2022 23:41 utc | 249

@ alek_a | May 17 2022 22:43 utc | 234

get a gig on madison avenue, or in hollywood where shit is fabricated regularly... the problem when you have type madison avenue types running the western media, you get lies and bullshit 24-7.... you want that?? call shit what it is when reporting.... forget about glamorizing or falsifying it... it was a fucking surrender, not an evacuation... i call bullshit, and most here do as well... if you call that 'traditional'' - no.. it is honest and straight forward... all else is playing with words and trying to obfuscate.... most people i know call that bullshit - jive ass bullshit..

Posted by: james | May 17 2022 23:46 utc | 250

As of yet, they are far from prisoners.

Posted by: aij | May 17 2022 23:16 utc | 244


In fact their situation is much worse than being captured. In that case they would be safe.

Now their fate is either trying to run for their lives, in which case they could even be targeted by the nazis (same in case of surrender), or serving as cannon fodder, or being captured.

Posted by: Olivier | May 17 2022 23:46 utc | 251

@Posted by: bevin | May 17 2022 16:58 utc | 141

"Variegated peripheralizations", "methodological campism and nationalism", "co-constitutive dynamics of gender, race, and class", ahhhh the unneeded complexification and mystification of the English language by a "progressive" voice.

Posted by: Roger | May 17 2022 18:24 utc | 167


Posted by: John Kennard | May 17 2022 23:58 utc | 252

According the Russian UN rep it was a unconditional surrender.
Apparently it will continue tomorrow 4am local time.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 17 2022 23:59 utc | 253

Putin's meeting on the development of the oil industry is too important not to be translated and molded into an article, so I melded it with his observation that Europe's committing economic suicide. It can be read here. I really would like to read Alexander Novak's testimony, but couldn't find any Russian media article about it; so, if S or one of our other Russian barflies finds a linakable article to his performance today, I'll be thankful and happy!

alek_a @240, et al--

Thanks for your replies and welcome to the bar!! For the record, I'm agnostic and subscribe to my own philosophy. In cognitive psychology, we examined language use as an exploitative tool and its use as such in educational contexts, which was very enlightening leading me to wonder if that Prof still teaches it in the same manner today as he did 23 years ago. That class almost enticed me to switch majors! Now it's time for a pint!

Posted by: karlof1 | May 18 2022 0:08 utc | 254


Shhhh…Cultural know, that thing that doesn’t exist and is just part of right wing illiterate imaginations.

Posted by: Obamavirus | May 18 2022 0:09 utc | 255

@ Posted by: rk | May 17 2022 15:36 utc | 105

An interesting conundrum.

Nuclear waste generated from all current technology reactor systems. In daily use. Requires, a basic minimum of 40,000 years of closed secure safe earthquake proof storage. In whose backyard, should the French choose? Perhaps Mali ?

Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | May 18 2022 0:10 utc | 256

Peter AU1 @252--

Curious it's being done in stages. Must still have records to destroy.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 18 2022 0:10 utc | 257

Bad Deal Motors On @255--

Or ROSATOM will reprocess all that waste and burn it in their new reactors built for that purpose.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 18 2022 0:12 utc | 258

And the headlines in the States is all about the 3rd week of the Johnny Depp - Amber Heard trial.
He said - she Said.
He was mean to me.
No I wasn't.

Gas prices hitting new highs essentially everyday.

Various primary voting days in all states.

Most of US is NOT paying attention to anything Ukraine at an objective level.

Posted by: BroncoBilly | May 18 2022 0:18 utc | 259

In response to
Peter AU1 @252--

Curious it's being done in stages. Must still have records to destroy.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 18 2022 0:10 utc | 256

My first thought is that Russia only has so much capacity to process these folks and so it will be slow bell because it must be done well/correct/right the first time.....

Thanks for the contributions. I am preoccupied trying to get out from under city permits by the end of this month and slow my body down before it gives up on me. There are so many comments here now I skim a lot and I am getting better at forcing myself to check the moniker before reading.

What/who are going to be evacuated next?

Posted by: psychohistorian | May 18 2022 0:22 utc | 260

Australia's O'Neill on the bioweapons labs in Ukraine. Worth reading.

Laguerre, socialism is a lot more likely to come as a result of the people of a nation state choosing it, than as a result of the government of an institution, composed of several allied nations, suddenly deciding that it would be a good idea.
In the EU it would be impossible since it would be unconstitutional. A position that would be reinforced by the Court of Justice.

Posted by: bevin | May 18 2022 0:26 utc | 261

George W @ 239; Absolutely, good points.

Posted by: vetinLA | May 18 2022 0:35 utc | 262

some russian saying,

thank you for teaching beeing boundless, well but you should know your bounds :)

Posted by: Macpott | May 18 2022 0:37 utc | 263

Then we had the curious case of the black transvestite headline performance at the Democrat convention in 2020 ..that weird Dracula costume and strange choreography. That wasn’t cultural Marxism either….. also our new White House Press Secretary maintains that the US suffers from “systemic racism” … completely ignoring that she is black, woman, lesbian and holds one of the top jobs in the administration. No this is not cultural Marxism.

Posted by: Obamavirus | May 18 2022 0:47 utc | 264

at the very least, Eastern (Donbass, etc) and Southern Ukraine (from Mariupol to Odessa and the Romanian border, I am assuming; in other words, all the Black Sea and Sea of Azonv coastal regions of the Ukraine) will never ever be returned to be part of Ukraine.
Deputy Prime Minister of Russia in Kherson: Kherson region has great prospects, the region will take its rightful place in the Russian family

It is necessary to start all the factories as quickly as possible, the restoration of roads and bridges will begin, and large support is also provided through the Ministry of Agriculture of Russia.

Posted by: michaelj72 | May 18 2022 0:50 utc | 265

bevin @ 260

Yes. The US and the EU are being shown to be in the deprivational stages of late capitalism.

The bio labs are part of the ‘America Gone Wild’ cia guided policies that Russia has determined to stop. And Russia is very strong and finding a lot of strong allies.

Posted by: financial matters | May 18 2022 0:52 utc | 266

#--Posted by: Milos | May 17 2022 15:22 utc | 100

Any proof of that claim? Or is it your imagination?

Posted by: Anne B | May 18 2022 1:02 utc | 267

#--Posted by: Milos | May 17 2022 15:22 utc | 100

Any proof of that claim? Or is it your imagination?

Posted by: Anne B | May 18 2022 1:02 utc | 268

Long time lurker love this site no one takes anything for granted here. Tonight on the CBS Evening News, Ukraine was entirely out of the lede, buried by the shooting in Buffalo, where the alleged shooter’s beliefs were (deservedly) castigated. Later a quick story about the ‘evacuation’ of Azovstal, never once linking the two. Granted the only link is ideological, however the point remains: one Nazi is to be put on public trial and the others are heroes. Anyway back to lurking. Keep up the good work b and barflies.

Posted by: Caveman | May 18 2022 1:04 utc | 269

karlof1 | May 18 2022 0:10 utc | 256

The something about daylight hours. Also the Ukraine sappers had to clear a path through their own mines and booby traps.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 18 2022 1:08 utc | 270

#--Posted by: Anders | May 17 2022 16:14 utc | 12

Who can laugh at the misery of of the innocent poor people of Ukraine is inhuman!!

They might be poor, but they are hardly innocent - I dare you to take a gander

Posted by: Anne B | May 18 2022 1:14 utc | 271

A NZ newspaper has this online article -
However the print version of the paper has a similar article but it is titled
"Ukraine relinquishes ruined Mariupal". Is that the best euphemism so far?!

The ODT has been overtly relentless in its bullshit about the SMO, but buried within its Ukraine stories are some facts here and there that the discerning can see support of the Russian point of view. However mostly its shit like below, which could have been written by Professor Robert Patman who "curates" the international section of the newspaper. He is a smarmy pommy, "guardianista", russophobe who is probably in regular contact with CIA/MI6.

Wednesday, 18 May 2022
Who can blame them?
Opinion Otago Daily Times Editorial
Whichever way you put it, that barbarous butcher Mr Putin has badly miscalculated how the neighbours might react to his war in Ukraine.
The Russian leader may be doing his utmost to redraw the map of Europe around Ukraine, but he is largely failing, with reports from British intelligence sources that he has now lost about one-third of his invasion force.

Instead, his aggression and his unclear future actions look likely to lead to major changes to that map further north, with next-door Finland and long-non-aligned Sweden confirming their intention to join the 30-nation Nato bloc, probably the world’s most powerful group and definitely a good one to have on your side when there’s an unstable neighbour lurking over the fence.

Mr Putin is obviously unhappy about this state of affairs.

But then he and his sycophant Kremlin associates and generals should have thought about what might happen when you force people into a corner.

He has nobody else to blame for the desires of the two Nordic countries to become part of the political and military alliance and protect their citizens and their borders.

He couldn’t have done a better job of pushing new nations into Nato’s arms if he had tried.

Back-pedalling to cover up his backfired plans, which had been to ensure Nato doesn’t grow stronger by including Ukraine, Mr Putin claims he has ‘‘no issue’’ with Finland and Sweden, presumably in terms of their sovereignty rather than their desire to be part of Nato.

However, the Guardian also reports him as saying that an expanded, Nato, military presence in those countries would spark a reaction from Russia, while his deputy foreign minister Sergei Ryabkov blusters that the move would be a mistake that has ‘‘far-reaching consequences’’.

There are also earlier proclamations from Moscow that it would take ‘‘retaliatory steps’’ to restore the balance in the region, including by deploying nuclear weapons.

We say good on Finland and Sweden for choosing to join Nato. Who could criticise them for wanting to?

While the two are acting together, each has slightly different motivations. Finland is in the trickier position thanks to geography, sharing a 1300km-long border with Russia and having had a chequered history of occupation and fighting back.

Militarily, Finland is strong for the size of its population, more so than Sweden, which has robustly pursued a policy of neutrality and has focused more on being an international mediator and peacekeeper.

Sweden does not border Russia, unlike Norway to its west, which has been in Nato since it was formed in 1949. But Sweden will not want to be the only Nordic country left out of the alliance, for obvious reasons.

The significance of their application cannot be overstated.

It marks a huge change for both from non-alignment, although there remains a concern that Turkey could veto their entry, over its claims that some Kurdish migrants living there are actually terrorists.

So what might happen if Mr Putin decides to attack either of the two nations while their applications are being progressed?

If that were to occur, the other Nordic Nato countries — Norway, Denmark and Iceland — have pledged support, as has the United Kingdom, which a few days ago signed a mutual security pact with both.

Nato is the real thorn in Russia’s side, and will prove far more of a deterrent to Mr Putin’s maverick and murdering actions than the United Nations, whose serious weaknesses have been highlighted in its inability to do much to stop the aggression.

Mr Putin was delusional in thinking he could invade a democracy on his doorstep and get away with it.

It is turning into a disaster for him and, with the move from the Finns and Swedes, support at home and among his inner circle will be slipping.

He has bitten off more than he can chew and appears to have actually strengthened Nato rather than weakened it.

Could this be the beginning of the end?

Posted by: tucenz | May 18 2022 1:30 utc | 272

Anders | May 17 2022 16:14 utc | 12
you know who's laughing at innocent suffering in Ukraine?

Biden, Blinken, Psucki, Austin, Bojo, Macron, the NYT, etc., etc.

who is not causing lights out and bombing the water treatment plants as the FIRST order of, for the west, a very routine business?

US relations with Mexico are more destructive than Russia's "SMO" with its neighbor, and have been for 175 straight years. people identify w/the US state b/c they don't want to have happen to them what happened to the natives, blacks, irish, chinese, jews, etc., here.

Posted by: rjb1.5 | May 18 2022 1:30 utc | 273

interesting development mentioned at smoothies site...

An Interesting Detail.

The gist: Russia's Supreme Court has a hearing on May 26 for Russia's Prosecutor General office submission for recognizing Azov militant nationalistic formation, and its other branches and titles, as a terrorist organization. Prosecutor General acted upon submission by FSB.

Posted by: james | May 18 2022 1:31 utc | 274

And Zelenskty is nothing but a US State Dept front man.

Posted by: Braggg | May 18 2022 1:36 utc | 275

tucenz | May 18 2022 1:30 utc | 271
it's impossible to see one single downside to those countries from the Finns and Swedes signing up with NATO, isn't it? not to their budgets, to being forced to be involved w/super special ed shit like afghanistan and israel and destroying countries like yugoslavia? there's no possible negative consequence to having NATO forces effectively running your country?

the inner Nazi of the European bourgeoisie is no longer dormant and abiding its time. the bitch has been in heat and is breeding war dogs everywhere.

Posted by: rjb1.5 | May 18 2022 1:41 utc | 276

2500 in Azovstal according this so plenty more to come out.
Blogger, militia member Vladlen Tatarsky @vladlentatarsky in our stream "Beautiful Russia boo-boo-boo" - about the Azov people who surrendered:

"They had plenty of ammunition and opportunities to defend themselves. Yes, they were bombed, but there are such catacombs in every building! Some passages, large-diameter pipes, where a person can safely move around.

It turned out that there are so many of them [Azovites]! We assumed that they were somewhere between 800-900 people plus 500 wounded. This was the assumption based on interrogations of prisoners back in April. And they turned out to be more than 2 thousand, now they call 2.5 thousand.

@james my guess is to allow charging them with belonging to a terrorist organisation if individual crimes cannot be proven against some.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 18 2022 1:45 utc | 277

Here is some video footage showing the surrender that CNN and BBC propagandists do not want us to ever see:

Posted by: Nate | May 18 2022 1:47 utc | 278

What does it matter if UK / NATO / US etc officers are down there? Constitutes declaration of war? Don't think so.

Maybe the bioweapons stuff down there is really damning and so toxic that they cannot get rid of it without infecting themselves. Or some such.

Something is going on down there which has more to do with just being unwilling to surrender. Or at least so it seems to me...

Posted by: Scorpion | May 18 2022 1:47 utc | 279

Surrounded by True Blue liberals here in California's Bay Area I'm struck by all those who aggressively parrot the corporate media line that the Ukraine has absolutely no Nazi problem. German speakers, help—if *hiwis* were those who willingly helped the Nazis, would those who are willingly blind to them be bliwis?

Posted by: Vintage Red | May 18 2022 1:50 utc | 280

Sorry, forgot to say that CBS said those fighters were ‘Evacuated to Russia,’ which I also find absolutely just hysterical.

Posted by: Caveman | May 18 2022 1:59 utc | 281

@ Peter AU1 | May 18 2022 1:45 utc | 276 with the 2500 figure for folks coming out of Azovstal

Thanks for that

That certainly supports some of the claims of it being a significant NATO presence and not just an Azov group.

If the reported head of the biolab had 18 people working for him as reported then it is quite possible that some of them are part of this 2500....and might have interesting things to say.

This number also supports my contention that Russia is consciously controlling the pace of "evacuation" to fit Russia's "what to do with them" plan.

Posted by: psychohistorian | May 18 2022 2:18 utc | 282

This video of Mariupol Port uploaded by John Dougan has a bit with a German lady Alina Lipp. Any German speakers care to comment on her presentation?

Peter AU1@276 the piece linked earlier bu Lulu also suggested that there were many fighters remaining in the plant, that they had plenty of water, but food was an issue - they just got rid of 300 mouths. Also said that destroying the bunkers/shelters would take a direct hit by 3 successive 500kg? bombs to penetrate. It ain't over at Azvostal unless they all surrender...

Posted by: the pessimist | May 18 2022 2:20 utc | 283

psychohistorian | May 18 2022 2:18 utc | 281

It will be interesting to see what comes out of there. I guess there has been plenty of time to destroy incriminating evidence if any, but I'm sure FSB has ways and means of extracting information.

Perhaps there is or was more bio weapons stuff in there but the Russia gained so much evidence from was located in Mariupol. Bio weapons, the bulk of Azov battalion and perhaps a Nato headquarters all in the one bag. Not a bad haul.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 18 2022 2:34 utc | 284

the pessimist | May 18 2022 2:20 utc | 282

From everything I have read it is a total surrender. Apparently they also had enough food so I suspect medical equipment was the issue. Plus I guess by this time they realized the only way they would ever come out of there was dead or as prisoners.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 18 2022 2:41 utc | 285

Hi James - I am not one to usually correct another's speech, but I have twice seen you use the phrase "for all intensive purposes", and I am pretty sure what you are meaning to say is "for all intents and purposes".

Said with kindness to a friend.

Have a good evening.

Posted by: David F | May 18 2022 2:44 utc | 286

@ Milos | May 17 2022 21:40 utc | 225

Milos, I live in the UK. At no point did I get the impression that the globalists were behind Brexit. All of our political parties had a majority in favour of remain, most were practically unanimous about it. The Tories were split on the matter and obviously UKIP were created for the very purpose of leaving the EU I will repeat the fact that Obama flew over personally to tell us to remain. Leavers were shamelessly slandered as stupid and as racists in the media. Media cover generally was pro-remain and the opinion polls were loaded in favour of remain as well. After the event there was an attempt in the UK to delegitimise the result by claiming that 'Russia interfered with Brexit' and 'the Brexiteers lied'. There were many calls by people closely associated with the globalists to have a 2nd referendum and the whole process was stalled and slow walked by globalist friendly people and organisations.

I consider it practically certain that you do not live in the UK. The idea that the globalists were in favour of Brexit may fit your favourite narrative but that does not make it true, you are rewriting history, stop it.

Posted by: MarkU | May 18 2022 2:45 utc | 287

@ alek_a | May 17 2022 22:43 utc | 234 Re:

"The statement is in fact true if you look at it as a sequence of words."

One of the definitions of a lie in my dictionary is 'a statement intended to give a misleading impression'. You are using what I call the 'Tony Blair defence', a careful parsing of the language intended to excuse a deliberately deceptive statement. Shame on you! go to Hell, go directly to Hell, do not pass go, do not collect £200.

Posted by: MarkU | May 18 2022 3:01 utc | 288

Here is some video footage showing the surrender that CNN and BBC propagandists do not want us to ever see:

Posted by: Nate | May 18 2022 1:47 utc | 277

They did use some of the RT (Russia MoD) surrender footage on the Canadian News tonight. Presumably it was all that was available ;-)

Posted by: Opport Knocks | May 18 2022 3:18 utc | 289

Peter AU1 | May 18 2022 2:41 utc | 284 until we hear about DPR troops exploring the catacombs it's not over. Perhaps they will all surrender in groups over several days, but I haven't read anything definitive saying that everyone had agreed to come out. The guy at DPA had it right over a month ago when he said that urban warfare against a determined foe is not a quick business and it would likely take weeks to clear the city. This was when the buzz was that the battle for Mariupol would be over in a few days. Short of mass surrenders the whole Donbass front will still take many weeks, or a couple of months even, to clear is my guess. Perhaps everyone on both sides will be lucky and the UAF in the east will wave the white flag in short order, but so far we haven't seen it.

On a positive note the press has been saying that "Mariupol has been totally destroyed by the Russians", however I don't get that impression. Sure, there are many areas where heavy fighting occurred that are decimated, but I wonder what percentage of the urban area as a whole has suffered irreparable damage? 10 or 15%? 20%? I am guessing that the port could be functioning at some level in a couple of months. Not sure what the state of utilities is. It will be interesting to see how soon the city begins to come back to life with residents returning and businesses getting up and running. There have been claims that a large building/urban renewal effort is planned and surely Russia will want to invest there - as they did in Crimea.

Mariupol Port: "...A sea of Azov port, Mariupol is situated in the northwestern part of Taganrog Bay, at the mouth of the Kalmius river. It counts among the leading Ukrainian ports and is the most developed facility on the Azov sea coastline. It is also known as the Sea Gates of Donbas and consists of an outer and an inner harbour. The latter has a grain terminal, a coal handling facility and a western port. Mariupol can handle coal, metal ores, grains, iron and steel products, equipment, containerised goods, perishable items and other cargo. Approximately 2550 ships, 17,000,000 tonnes of cargo and 10,000 TEU are handled annually.

Lying amidst one of the biggest industrial regions of Ukraine, Mariupol was developed in the second half of the 19th century to serve the southern part of the country. Known as Zhdanov in the 1950s, it was a major coal export facility during Soviet times.

It covers about 74.4 hectares and comprises 18 berths with an overall length of 4.2 km. Mariupol can easily accommodate ships with a length of up to 250 m and a draft of 8 m. This facility has 14,100 m2 of warehouse area and 260,700 m2 of open yards.

The port’s coal terminal handles 5 million tonnes annually and is equipped with 2 railway truck tippers, conveyor lines, 2 stackers and 3 coal loading devices. The Container terminal spans 34,000m2 and has an annual container throughput of 50,000 TEU."

So it can ship grain, coal, and containers - useful attributes for a re-constituted Novorussiya.

Posted by: the pessimist | May 18 2022 3:21 utc | 290

psychohistorian @ 281

Maybe the ghost of Jim Jones is down there mixing up a fine batch of fresh koolaid..

Posted by: polecat | May 18 2022 3:40 utc | 291

@ Caveman | May 18 2022 1:04 utc | 268

ditto at ABC NEWS, I had moment of "shock" - the 'evacuation' from Azovstal came briefly after 20 minutes of news about other important events. These MSM outlets have clearly a common 'vis a tergo' (or hand behind the screen) which gives them the talking points.

Posted by: fanto | May 18 2022 3:41 utc | 292

rjb1.5 | May 18 2022 1:41 utc | 275

Yes craziness all throughout the west - the gods must wish to destroy the west by making us mad!

But in the meantime I look forward to more "relinquishing" by the Ukies.

Posted by: tucenz | May 18 2022 3:47 utc | 293

rjb1.5 | May 18 2022 1:41 utc | 275

Yes craziness all throughout the west - the gods must wish to destroy the west by making us mad!

But in the meantime I look forward to more "relinquishing" by the Ukies.

Posted by: tucenz | May 18 2022 3:47 utc | 294

Reuters seems to have been shamed into posting titles like the following recent one

Ukraine troops begin to surrender in Mariupol

That said, just to put the right edge on it, the posting title at the top of the Reuters page says

Fears for Mariupol defenders after surrender to Russia

Posted by: psychohistorian | May 18 2022 4:06 utc | 295

@ fanto | May 18 2022 3:41 utc | 291

It seems that the public in the US has lost interest. I’m seeing much less anxious posting about nuclear war (although in my mind that threat has increased as the SMO meets its objectives) and a whole bunch of celebrities are no longer using the Ukrainian flag in their little icons on the Facebooks of the world. As it becomes clear Ukraine is going to lose, the sleight of hand will increase until people forget it completely, setting up Azov as the next Al-Qaeda, and keeping the taps turned on to the MIC. Think about it: we were allied with Ho Chi Minh, Kim Il-Sung, and Stalin against the Axis, all of whom later became enemies. We armed Al-Qaeda and then used them as an excuse to fill the coffers of weapons makers for a couple decades, and now it’s Azov’s turn. Hell, we even used the Filipinos to fight the Spanish, promising them self governance, then immediately colonized them ourselves once the Spanish were out of the picture. I wonder if the objective isn’t necessarily Russia, but to create another failed state for our military to heroically save.

Posted by: Caveman | May 18 2022 4:18 utc | 296

I read something about a Russian survey team operating in Donbas to see what is required for rebuilding and I would guess to set priorities.
Apparently some residential areas in Mariupol are virtually unscathed whereas others are nearly destroyed. One or two areas have electricity restored. I guess utilities will be priority at the moment. Port area that was linked in a video earlier in this thread looks to be relatively unscathed and Donetsk is already organizing to export goods through there.

Will be interesting over the next few days to see who, how many and if they all come out at Azovstal.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 18 2022 4:24 utc | 297

Comment @296 was a reply to the pessimist | May 18 2022 3:21 utc | 289

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 18 2022 4:32 utc | 298

If I were a "high value" NATO officer I would secret myself in some hidden portion of the underground system at the same time the first group surrenders.

I would then remain hidden and wait for the RF / DPR forces to relax their vigil or search activities and then seek to evade capture by either pre-arranged exfiltration or by attempting to melt into the adjacent civilian population and then crossing the border into Odessa oblast.

Posted by: Sushi | 4

They have been there and done that.  Two NATO Generals have been captured at the Azovstal plant:

• US NATO Lieutenant General Roger Cloutier, captured
  Veterans TOday/Total News Blackout: US General Captured Leading Azov Nazis in Mariupol

• Canadian NATO Lieutenant General Trevor Cadieu, caught trying to escape,
  disguised as a civilian
  Lieutenant General Trevor Cadieu and Azovstal
  He was commander of the bio warfare lab, deep in the bunkers of Azovstal.

Worth noting.  Previously, there were two attempts at "rescuing" just the high-ranking NATO officers.  Each attempt used two helicopters and elite paratroopers.  Both failed, shot down.  Four helicopters and over 50 elite troops lost.

Also, from the beginning, Macron has been begging and pleading for "extraction".  That indicates that there are high-ranking French officrs there.

Also, the supposed commander of the Azov battalion one Volyn, has been on Telegram, begging external countries for "extraction" to a third country.  (Why not Ukraine ?)  First he begged Turkey.  Then he begged the Pope.  Third, he begged Elon Musk ( after Russia shut the internet in Ukraine down, he re-instated it via his Starlink satellites).

300 Ukronazis have surrendered so far, there are still 2,000 in the bunkers.  DPR is preparing for the incoming numbers.

When it is emptied, the Big Secret the Ukronazis have been hiding will be revealed.  My bet is on the bio warfare lab + NATO officers running it.

Posted by: Incisive One | May 18 2022 4:56 utc | 300

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