Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 13, 2022

U.S. Military Intelligence Official Refutes 'Russian Atrocities' Claims

Russian soldiers left the town Bucha in Ukraine on March 30. Two days later the Ukrainian Gestapo like SBU and men of the fascist Azov battalion moved in to find and remove 'traitors'. On April 2/3 video was published that showed freshly killed men laying on the streets of Bucha. Several of them had white arm bands signaling to Russian forces to see them as friendlies.

The 'west' and Ukrainian officials immediately called those dead the result of 'Russian atrocities'.

I had called it a provocation:

The Bucha 'Russian' atrocities propaganda onslaught may have worked well in the 'west' but it lacks evidence that Russia had anything to do with it.

The former Indian ambassador M.K. Bhadrakumar calls it an outright fake: ...

And a fake it was.

Thankfully there are still some sane U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency officials and William Arkin is talking with them:

Last Wednesday, Bucha Mayor Anatolii Fedoruk said that 320 people had been killed in the town of 37,000.
...
"It is ugly," a senior official with the Defense Intelligence Agency tells Newsweek. "But we forget that two peer competitors fought over Bucha for 36 days, and that the town was occupied, that Russian convoys and positions inside the town were attacked by the Ukrainians and vice versa, that ground combat was intense, that the town itself was literally fought over."
...
"I am not for a second excusing Russia's war crimes, nor forgetting that Russia invaded the country," says the DIA official. "But the number of actual deaths is hardly genocide. If Russia had that objective or was intentionally killing civilians, we'd see a lot more than less than .01 percent in places like Bucha."

320 of 37,000 is not .01 percent. But we do not know how many of those dead were Russian or Ukrainian soldiers. Some of the dead were so called 'civilian defenders' which were supposedly local civilians to whom the government had handed guns to 'fight the Russians'. During a war a 'civilian' with a government issued gun shooting at enemy soldiers is a combatant, not a civilian.

The DIA official continues:

"Have the Russians been indiscriminate? Absolutely. But it shouldn't too surprising. It's part and parcel of the Russian way of war, lining up their artillery guns and letting loose," the DIA official says. "But here in particular, in Bucha and the other towns around it—Irpin and Hostomel—there was intense ground fighting that involved almost 20 battalion tactical groups."

I doubt that there is really intentional 'indiscriminate' Russian artillery fire. The Russians have held back quite a lot and paid in blood for it.

One should also note that the often shown mass graves in Bucha were not from recent actions but had been dug on March 10 after heavy fighting when Russian soldiers tried to enter the town:

Maxar Technologies, which collects and publishes satellite imagery of Ukraine, said the first signs of excavation for a mass grave at the Church of St. Andrew and Pyervozvannoho All Saints were seen on March 10.

"More recent coverage on March 31st shows the grave site with an approximately 45-foot-long trench in the southwestern section of the area near the church," Maxar said.

The DIA official clearly says the civilian casualties in Ukraine, which are quite low, get overplayed and that attributing them solely to Russia is wrong:

On Monday, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights said it had recorded 1,793 deaths and 2,439 injuries to civilians in all of Ukraine since the war began on February 24. U.S. intelligence believes that the true number is some five times greater, as previously reported by Newsweek.

"It's bad," the DIA official says. "And I don't want to say it's not too bad. But I can't help but stress that beyond the clamor, we are not seeing the war clearly. Where there has been intense ground fighting and a standoff between Ukrainian and Russian forces, the destruction is almost total. But in terms of actual damage in Kyiv or other cities outside the battle zone, and with regard to the number of civilian casualties overall, the evidence contradicts the dominant narrative."
...
The official says that it is dangerous to attribute one or even several graves and scenes of civilian disaster to Russian barbarism rather than just being realistic about the depredations of war.

The official also worries that attributing the destructiveness only to Russian conduct, rather than to war itself, creates future dangers.

"If we blame all the damage on Putin, as if he commanded it and that it is due solely to Russian war crimes, we are going to walk away from Ukraine with some illusion in our heads that modern warfare can be fought more cleanly, that the Ukraine war is an anomaly solely created by Russia's behavior. This war is just demonstrating how destructive any war on this scale would be."

One should avoid to wage war whenever possible but it also important to end wars as quickly as possible:

"Maybe it's heartless to urge that we look at Ukraine with precision, without human emotion," says the DIA official.

"But for those who think tens of thousands have died and Russia is intentionally killing civilians and pursuing genocide, I say that's even more of an argument to find a diplomatic solution to cease fighting. But nothing is going to happen in the coming days or weeks to change the reality on the battlefield. That's why stopping the fighting should be our highest priority."

Unfortunately ending the war is not a priority for the U.S. nor the EU. Their leaders are drunk on the idea that the Ukraine defeated Russia around Kiev. They seem to believe that the Ukraine can defeat Russia everywhere.

But the retreat from Kiev was ordered because the deceptive move towards it had fulfilled its purpose of keeping a large number of Ukrainian soldiers in place around Kiev while the Russian army opened the land corridor to Crimea.

The Ukraine has no chance to defeat the Russian army no matter how many old tanks or airplanes the U.S. and EU countries move to it.

Sending more weapons only prolongs the war and inevitably creates more military and civilian casualties on both sides.

Posted by b on April 13, 2022 at 14:55 UTC | Permalink

Comments
« previous page | next page »

@ 164, the M113s

Yeah, aluminum melts nicely, but I suppose nowadays its doesn't matter much if its steel or aluminum, a direct hit by a modern at missile will take out both. Still, if I was giving the Ukies M-113s, just don't tell them they'll be riding around (at least for a few minutes) in gloried western beer cans...

Posted by: DakotaRog | Apr 14 2022 3:36 utc | 301

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 3:24 utc | 294

Let's assume your suspicion were true, that MOD tries to cover it up. So far here I have seen many commenters had postulated that the western intelligence can see and locate Moskva, which might have caused her demise. Do you think 404 or US or NATO would let Russia MOD go easily?

So, if any one doesn't believe MOD's statements, then provide real evidence, not Bucha quaility evidence. No evidence? Then Russian MOD is absolutely correct.

Posted by: KitaySupporter | Apr 14 2022 3:36 utc | 302

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/04/13/the-ukrainians-claim-they-damaged-a-russian-cruiser-be-skeptical/?sh=78b43a4e3971

Martyanov is getting butthurt over this follow up article - in forbes - which is fairly neutral in terms of outcomes (not descriptions).

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 3:39 utc | 303

@288 S

I know nothing of military stuff, as demonstrated earlier when I mistook the Ukrainian upgraded Neptune for the British Harpoon, but if indeed it happened as you state, maybe you or someone like you should have been on board that ship.

It seems to me that this trap, if indeed it happened as you wrote, was set by the U.S. military, and the Ukies merely followed instructions. It seems to me that the Pentagon is fully immersed in this war and may be directing it from Washington. Therefore, America is covertly at War with Russia.

Posted by: Circe | Apr 14 2022 3:40 utc | 304

@290 ka - Re: Martyanov's comment on Moskva

Thanks.
Notable point: Martyanov thinks the explosion would not be the P-1000 main armament, maybe the 130mm deck gun ammunition.

Posted by: ptb | Apr 14 2022 3:41 utc | 305

@300 Boo
FWIW: article contains 2019 video of oil tanker fire (with lovely green colorization)

Posted by: ptb | Apr 14 2022 3:44 utc | 306

Posted by: KitaySupporter | Apr 14 2022 3:36 utc | 299

I think you're implying something else in my post. All I'm saying is, if it's a true hit, then it's an embarassment to the Russian Navy since they had enough time to prepare for this scenario. OK, may be I exagerated how likely is that the Russians will admit the truth. It could be that they will admit it sooner than later. If they admit it, heads will have to roll, and this is another issue in the current campaign.

Nothing about fake MI6 Bucha events, see.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 3:45 utc | 307

# 296


Not to mention the destruction of Raqqa in Syria.
It took for the USA and allies, with airforce and artillery, many months to flatten the city, with its citizens
still inside.
The leaders of ISIS were taken to safety ja transported elsewhere (inside Syria and to Afganistan), to fight for American cause again.

Posted by: ka | Apr 14 2022 3:46 utc | 308

Posted by: ptb | Apr 14 2022 3:44 utc | 303

Yeah, I know, :) I already saw that fake photo when I wrote this in


Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 1:46 utc | 249

Also, no independent confirmation like photos of fire in the sky or some such; so far all photos published in the channels are fake.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 3:49 utc | 309

Circe | Apr 14 2022 3:40 utc | 301

With the captured Nato laptop early on, it was evident Nato and therefore the US was controlling this war on the Ukie side. Russia may have destroyed Ukraine coms, but various units will still have direct communication with NATO/US coms.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2022 3:55 utc | 310

If Moskva is severely damaged, what replaces her and where does it come from?
Also, is it a sitting duck full of missiles,if unable to move?
Seems a cascading failure if struck by missiles, and unlikely given current info.

Posted by: Michael | Apr 14 2022 4:13 utc | 311

MOD just spoke Moskva 45 minutes ago. Fire, explosion, and evacuation. No 404, or lousy UK missile. By now, if anybody still takes 404, NATO, US words at their face value, this person is certified having flat learning curve.

Posted by: KitaySupporter | Apr 14 2022 4:22 utc | 312

@ Circe 266

In India state and big companies are separate entities. The Government of India has ~zero influence on private giant Infosys.

One could ask why is Russia still supplying gas to Germany? Or are Rosneft and Gazprom 100% independent? Probably all tactics, just like Infosys.

Posted by: Antonym | Apr 14 2022 4:22 utc | 313

While I am sure there are more recent examples this is from 1990

Sh*t does happen

Posted by: the pessimist | Apr 14 2022 4:22 utc | 314

are people repeating themselves a lot on this thread??? it sure looks like it... say it once, instead of 50 times, from 50 different angles, lol... hard following these threads as a consequence of the noise to signal ratio at the moment.. of course smoothie's or others idea that you would wait before figuring you know - well, that would be a bit too much to ask for i suppose!

Posted by: james | Apr 14 2022 4:22 utc | 315

speaking of which. it is the 150th anniversary of alice in wonderland... "first the sentence, then the evidence.." basically that sums up modern day propaganda...

Posted by: james | Apr 14 2022 4:24 utc | 316

S | Apr 14 2022 3:12 utc | 288

Everything I have seen about Russian culture vs west is that Russian culture is far less risk adverse than workplace health and safety west. Regarding ships, there have been a few incidents in shipyards.
it was most noticeable to me with the peacekeepers or military police in the reconciliation areas of Syria. In that I think the Majority where from Dagistan. Not a single incident. Compared to something like the US so called contractors in Iraq massacring a heap of people because a car backfired. Or the massacre at the afghan airport.

Overall though, no matter if this is a US hit or simply a fire, it will make no difference to the Russian operation, regardless of its propaganda value in the anglo controlled part of the world.
It does annoy me though seeing Russia taking losses when it appears to be - in the hot war at least - fighting the empire on its own. It took big enough losses in WWII or for Russia the great patriotic war.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2022 4:25 utc | 317

@308 Michael

If the fire is beyond control, the ship eventually sinks. If the fire can be put out, even if the ship is totaled, they would try as much as possible to tow it to the nearest Russian port. Presumably other forces would be defending against repeat strikes, if that was the case. Due to international treaty, access to the Black Sea is closed during wartime, so no replacement.

Posted by: ptb | Apr 14 2022 4:29 utc | 318

speaking of which. it is the 150th anniversary of alice in wonderland... "first the sentence, then the evidence.." basically that sums up modern day propaganda...

Posted by: james | Apr 14 2022 4:24 utc | 313

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

Posted by: Walt | Apr 14 2022 4:34 utc | 319

Why is the CCP still in the 101% lockdown mindset in April 2022 in Shanghai?
Citizen's are absolutely desperate for food. https://twitter.com/MikeSmithAFR/status/1512557720544903169

India has 0% lockdown, face masks gone 95%. Modi also believed the Fauci /Gates lie, but has adjusted to reality: here street protests won't allow mad 101 lockdowns.

Posted by: Antonym | Apr 14 2022 4:35 utc | 320

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Apr 14 2022 2:58 utc | 281

Yes, thank you, NemesisCalling, for your honest answer. We are in disagreement, perhaps. And I could myself be wrong. But the Russian Orthodoxy of my little church looked to Russia's first canonized saints, Boris and Gleb, whose sanctity was that of the acceptance of martyrdom, not by taking others with them as they died, but by simple nonviolent acceptance. Christ himself took that path.

I recognize that Putin is now doing what he feels he must as Russia's leader. And he certainly finds strength from within his faith, within his family history in wartime as others have pointed out. His forbearance had been Christian, and I cannot judge him now on his actions in defence of Russia. Peter also had that spirit, to defend with the sword...we are only human after all. And we all fall short, one way or another.

I would wish that the western Christians would recognize what a sacrifice he is now making, not as a conqueror but as a man torn between two great responsibilities, both of which he is being forced to honor. To me, it is the Christian paradox writ large: nothing is impermissible; no deed inflexibly wrong or right. What is in the heart is what counts. Do we in the west love our leaders? I don't think that many of us do. In Russia, they love him, and he loves them. As, in the end, between Christ and Peter, the ultimate charge resonates: feed my sheep.

Posted by: juliania | Apr 14 2022 4:36 utc | 321

@292 peter aus1

Yours is a fine comment and, like Juliania's, is very acceptable and reasonable.

For myself, I can not help myself from trying to take as broad a gaze as possible when trying to discern what is happening on the macro stage.

For Russia to win this fight will shake the very foundations of the liberal world order and will not just simply safeguard Russian culture for posterity.

I predict it will have a rippling effect and greatly influence the Catholic Church. I believe also its effect on the western financial system will be cataclysmic for the globalist world order.

My musings are therefore more grounded in apocalyptic writings and eschatology than many other posters here. I won't apologize for it, but instead offer it merely as another piece of the puzzle.

To write simply about something huge.

Seems like an east meets west proposition. If you don't like it, discard it.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Apr 14 2022 4:41 utc | 322

Why is the CCP still in the 101% lockdown mindset in April 2022 in Shanghai?
Citizen's are absolutely desperate for food. https://twitter.com/MikeSmithAFR/status/1512557720544903169

India has 0% lockdown, face masks gone 95%. Modi also believed the Fauci /Gates lie, but has adjusted to reality: here street protests won't allow mad 101 lockdowns.

Posted by: Antonym | Apr 14 2022 4:35 utc | 317

Zero covid, the people support it 100% from what I can see.

Two bus loads of doctors returned from Shanghai yesterday and offloaded in front of the adjacent building here in Shenzhen. Now it seems 12 have brought the disease back to us, their hotel is locked down for 14 days, and we are back on daily testing.

Posted by: Walt | Apr 14 2022 4:41 utc | 323

NemesisCalling | Apr 14 2022 4:41 utc | 319

We are moving into the unknown. The changing of the post WWII era.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2022 4:50 utc | 324

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 3:24 utc | 294

I agree that the Ukies could have been informed by the US of the result if it was a missile. Even if it was just a fire, the Ukies could have been informed by the US as to the resulting sinking (if it did sink.) So either way, there's no proof.

Posted by: S | Apr 14 2022 3:29 utc | 295

Yes, I remember the "just a fire" report early on in that case.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 3:39 utc | 300

That's the article I posted above. Andrei doesn't like it because it gets some things wrong. He hates Western media anyway, for good reason.

We'll just have to wait until a special briefing is held by the MoD, which I'm sure there will be one after an investigation. As it stands, anything is possible, including the mine hypothesis, which Martyanov says depends on which came first, fire or explosion. The MoD says at this time fire first, then explosion. Who knows, that may change...

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 14 2022 4:52 utc | 325

Sorry this is really off topic, but my partner says that people are saying that the Shanghai government won't pay for food for people out of town or look after them in hospital and are sending them home. Trains out are fully booked. I can't vouch for that.
If so, it sounds like a major spreading event.

Posted by: Walt | Apr 14 2022 4:56 utc | 326

Sorry, Walt, but you're off-topic here. There's a thread for Non-Ukrainian stuff- try there.

Posted by: Seer | Apr 14 2022 5:00 utc | 327

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 14 2022 4:52 utc | 322

This is going to be my last post on Moskva topic for awhile. Andrei Martyanov said that the Moskva has not been updated and refitted, while the Forbes guy claimed in his article that it's been. I checked out of curiosity the wiki page for the ship:


Upon return from her deployment in January 2016, the ship was to undergo a refit and upgrade but due lack of funds her future remained uncertain as of July 2018.[27][28]

In June 2019, the cruiser left the port of Sevastopol in the Black Sea where she would run tests on several combat systems and the main propulsion.[29]

So Andrei was right; the Forbes guy is not a mil. specialist, he just writes about ships and other stuff and he might have been sloppy with other stuff as well. Will wait for MoD and the usual telegram sources to weigh in.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 5:03 utc | 328

One more bite.
I was wrong about submission to lockdown, at least in Shanghai.
In that clip they are shouting
"Chuqu, chuqu!"

Go out!

Posted by: Walt | Apr 14 2022 5:04 utc | 329

Sorry, Walt, but you're off-topic here. There's a thread for Non-Ukrainian stuff- try there.

Posted by: Seer | Apr 14 2022 5:00 utc | 324

Sorry, are you a moderator?

I was replying to anothe comment but have finished now.

Posted by: Walt | Apr 14 2022 5:06 utc | 330

Posted by: Walt | Apr 14 2022 4:56 utc | 323

Walt, usually b posts an open thread on Thursdays here, which would be tomorrow. I would appreciate it if you could give more info on the Shanghai event then, and perhaps we could get some further input from others on the specific strain, how serious it is, etc.

Thank you for posting.

Posted by: juliania | Apr 14 2022 5:06 utc | 331

Ok, last, last post on Moskva, another hypothesis from a mil. correspondent, and btw, he seems to kinda confirm that it was the ukies:

https://t.me/rybar/31144


[Forwarded from Kotsnews]
The more painful the blow, the more painful the response will be. The last illusions are dispelled, if someone else had them.

Now they are talking about "Neptune", and I will remind you that on January 19, 2021, a military transport aircraft of the European command of the US Navy C-40 "Clipper" (a military modification of the Boeing 737-700 aircraft, made in the livery of civil aviation) delivered a batch of containers with special cargo to Odessa. Moreover, at the time of unloading, active jamming systems were working.

According to my sources in the special services, the containers contained AGM-119 "Penguin" anti-ship missiles of the Mk-2 modification, previously in service with the Royal Norwegian Navy.

We must be prepared for this. We are fighting not just with Ukraine, but with the entire NATO infrastructure.
@sashakots

On their wiki page the "Penguins" can be used from boats and helicopters.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 5:16 utc | 332

Posted by: Walt | Apr 14 2022 5:06 utc | 327

Whether I'm a moderator or not has no bearing on the FACT that you're off topic. Ain't got NOTHING to do with Ukraine or Russia.

Not saying the topic isn't important, but...

Posted by: Seer | Apr 14 2022 5:19 utc | 333

Peter AU1 @321--

Just back for a quick question. Was the following by Putin reported earlier"

"What's happening today? Today, the system of the unipolar world that developed after the collapse of the Soviet Union is being destroyed, that's what is most important. The main thing is not even the tragic events taking place in the Donbas and Ukraine, because this is not the main thing. Much is said that the United States is "ready to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian." And they say, and we say, in fact, this is how it is. That is the quintessence of the events taking place." [My Emphsis]

He said more, but that was the most profound.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 14 2022 5:35 utc | 334

@308 Michael "If Moskva is severely damaged, what replaces her and where does it come from?"

Probably nothing replaces her. The flag officer transfers his flag to one of the guided missile frigates and continues to operate from there.

There are four or five of those in the Black Sea Fleet. Each is much smaller than Moskva, but the Admiral Grigorovich-class frigate are much newer vessels.

So it'd be cramped, but workable.

The main attraction of the Moskva - apart from its roominess - is that this is a ship designed for long distance anti-ship and anti-aircraft operations.

Which is all well and good, but the Ukrainians have no navy and precious few fighter-bombers. So anti-ship is not an issue, and anti-air means UAV and sea-skimming missile attacks. The Admiral Grigorovich-class are probably better equipped to deal with those than Moskva was/is.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Apr 14 2022 5:40 utc | 335

Why is the CCP still in the 101% lockdown mindset in April 2022 in Shanghai?

Posted by: Antonym | Apr 14 2022 4:35 utc | 317

Shanghai isn't 100% locked down. If it were, it wouldn't be exporting cases everywhere, and the rest of us wouldn't be absolutely furious with the Shanghai government. I'm just glad my city doesn't have any more direct train or plane links to Shanghai anymore since a bunch of our cases came from them and we've only just finally returned to something more normal.

Posted by: Walt | Apr 14 2022 4:56 utc | 323

There's a non-Ukraine thread right now at https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/04/the-moa-week-in-review-not-ukraine-ot-2022-43/

I'm happy to discuss the situation with you over there.

Posted by: Beatrice | Apr 14 2022 5:49 utc | 336

I killed my whole reply to Peter and replaced it with the following for everyone.

My favorite comments on this thread were Barovsky @127 and Lex @276 who has a great understanding of the Russian psyche. Please take the time to read them. Both are worth reading. If only compassion could be taught starting early in life.

As a matter of fact, it was taught somewhere, once, in grade school by a very special teacher, and his method was documented in the film: Children Full of Life.

It's 40 minutes long, but when you have a free hour, it's a lesson everyone can use or be reminded of.

Compassion

Yes. This is War and unfortunately it's become a painful and needed correction, but read Barovsky's comment and Lex's beautiful reply and watch the film.

In the West, we're being taught, almost forced to hate everything Russia, but, stop and ask: Why? What's in a name?

Posted by: Circe | Apr 14 2022 6:07 utc | 337

"Sending more weapons only prolongs the war and inevitably creates more military and civilian casualties on both sides."

Indeed. But I do believe that is the point as far as defense contractors are concerned.
I am concerned about a few things I read about today and would hope for your input:
Sweden applies to join NATOSTAN
Finland is considering joining NATOSTAN
A secret meeting was held via the DofD and 8 of the largest defense contractors.
800 million in weapons being sent to states bordering Russia
It looks to me as if someone wants a world war

Posted by: Kay | Apr 14 2022 6:10 utc | 338

karlof1 | Apr 14 2022 5:35 utc | 331

Thanks.I can get through to the kremlin and foreign ministry sites now and read the piece at your link.
The two things, the ending of the multipolar and the Russian military operation I think are intertwined.
A number of factors I guess, but Russian ability to push the US back militarily rather than just block, the theft of Russian reserves - not to mention US action over the last decade or so.
Russian ability to face down the US - fertiliser - Brazil and India are the two biggest importers of fertilizer...
And then US deliberately making an enemy of China, letting China know it's next on the list. Its like the US brewed up the perfect storm then sailed into it.

US/west intentions are that plain and public, it's like they think the rest of the world gets around with a bone stuck through their nose and carrying a spear.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2022 6:25 utc | 339

Posted by: bevin | Apr 13 2022 22:21 utc | 162

I didn't say it was a hoax!!!! You're putting words in my mouth! Most objectionable.

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 14 2022 6:49 utc | 340

Shit happened.

So all the pundits here with their theories of this and that, don't know what the fuck they're talking about because that experience, of every single family losing at least one member (including my Soviet family and in the Ukraine and Lithuania) during that conflagration, is what drove, not just Putin, Putin just embodies that memory, but almost the entire Russian people. I just don’t think people in the West understand.

I’ve been exchanging messages with Russians on Telegram and it’s my first interaction with a number of Russian citizens and ...

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 13 2022 20:39 utc | 127

?

... the real war is a propaganda one, and right now, the Russians are losing that one but it's not directed at Russia, it’s the populations of the Imperialist block as they’re the only ones who could stop it.

Will it work? Given that the Ukraine obscenity is an organic extension of the C-19 scam (sorry b that you fell for it, tugging at your heart strings) but it

Tinkle, tinkle, shitpost, barfsky,
I don't wonder what you arseky.
Wiser than Putin, Xi and b,
Fool 'em all but you won't fool me.

Posted by: Laurence | Apr 14 2022 6:55 utc | 341

And then US deliberately making an enemy of China, letting China know it's next on the list. Its like the US brewed up the perfect storm then sailed into it.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2022 6:25 utc | 336

The US didn't let China know anything that China was not already aware of.
China could figure out without help that they will be at the mercy of the US if Russia falls. They are dependent on energy imports, and the US is trying to control both sea and land. Russia might have been enticed to join the West, but never China. But US chose to make an enemy of Russia.

It was unavoidable that the US would have to take on Russia and China at the same time.

Posted by: Martina | Apr 14 2022 7:03 utc | 342

Boris Rozhin on Moskva:

On the guided missile cruiser Moskva.

1. In the morning, a fire and an explosion on the ship were officially confirmed, followed by the evacuation of the crew. The information is confirmed by large federal media referring to the RF MoD.
2. The Ukraine claimed yesterday that it used Neptun anti-ship missiles, but this information was accompanied by fake photos and videos related to other episodes (an edited video of a fire on a ship from Tanzania and the sinking of an Iranian warship).
3. There are also versions that the ship could have been hit by NATO anti-ship missiles secretly delivered to the Ukraine, as well as blown up by a drifting mine.
4. At night, there were reports that the ship had already sunk due to the consequences of the detonation of ammunition and the impossibility of further struggle for the ship’s survivability, but there is no official confirmation of this yet.
5. In any case, this is a serious loss for the Black Sea Fleet. Although the ship is old, it is far from useless and not so easily replaceable, given the difficulties in building large surface warships in the country (unfortunately, we do not build ships of comparable size in large batches, as in China—see the rate of construction of Type 055 destroyers).
6. This story once again reminds us that a proxy war against the U.S. and NATO is going on in the Ukraine, which is perfectly confirmed by “surprises” like the helicopter raid or the attack on the ammo warehouse in Belgorod.
7. Regarding the reaction, I support the widespread opinion—enough with being soft, treating with velvet gloves, making warnings.

Let’s wait for what they say at the RF MoD’s briefing.

Posted by: S | Apr 14 2022 7:18 utc | 343

Regarding the Moskva:

This is another effect of the US "bleeding Russia" slowly, which is clearly part of the American strategy (as it was with the USSR). A few more of these to go and Russia will have nothing resembling a navy in very short order (6 - 9 months).

As I mentioned on this forum some days ago, Russia needs to begin drawing the US in to conflicts, indirectly, in other locations around the world to ensure that the Empire has no chance to rest and watch Russia bleed at leisure.

If the Russians believe they can contain this fight to Ukraine alone, or even to Europe, they are severely mistaken.
If they believe they can avoid confronting the US (in one way or another), they are also severely mistaken.

Via proxies (with plausible deniability), Russia should use flashpoints in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon-Israel, Serbia/Kosovo, Afghanistan, Pakistan to force US involvement in order to engineer the same kind of "bleed out" it is being subjected to.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 14 2022 7:48 utc | 344

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Apr 14 2022 5:40 utc | 332

The main attraction of the Moskva - is that this is a ship designed for long distance anti-ship and anti-aircraft operations.

I cannot understand what the Moskva was doing in the Black Sea in the first place. It has no place in the "Special Military Operation" in the Ukraine. It's intended and only possible role in the larger conflict is to prevent US aircraft carriers from approaching the Syrian coast. This is what it has been doing for the last nine years.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Apr 14 2022 8:20 utc | 345

https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/video-russian-flagship-moskva-explodes-in-black-sea-off-ukraine Getting close to outright NATO v Russia.

Posted by: PJB | Apr 14 2022 8:23 utc | 346

Telegram channel Rybar on Moskva:

[satellite images]

Guided missile cruiser Moskva. Maxar satellites captured the ship in the harbor of Sevastopol on April 10.

This is not the first loss. And not the last.

The crew of the guided missile cruiser stoically fought for the survival of their home ship, trying to reach the harbor of Sevastopol on their own at low speed. After they failed to cope with the source of fire on their own, a decision was made to evacuate.

There are no complaints against the crew of the guided missile cruiser. Quite a few have already accumulated against the command of the fleet, though.

Posted by: S | Apr 14 2022 8:31 utc | 347

Moskva sinking an escalation to secure release of Azovstal rats?

If this really is a war of attrition, NATO+ was always going to get around to targeting RF ships. They are valuable and vulnerable, it was only a matter of time.

RF might never get a better chance to corner NATO+ assets than Azovstal.

Posted by: anon2020 | Apr 14 2022 8:31 utc | 348

The fact that this Moskva missile cruiser event happened just as the NATO people in Mariupol are about to be captured and possibly exposed could be a coincidence, but I don't really believe in such coincidences.

As many have said, we have to wait and see what facts about this event will tell us. So far it is little to work from. I have my own speculative ideas that I don't intend to share until I know more.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 14 2022 8:32 utc | 349

Mate interviews a Pakistani professor about the regime change operation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jFNJtjm-wI
"millions of protestors". if they could reverse this coup it would be huge.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Apr 14 2022 8:40 utc | 350

Posted by: anon2020 | Apr 14 2022 8:31 utc | 345


Moskva sinking an escalation to secure release of Azovstal rats?

More like to secure their guaranteed annihilation. One doesn't generally use provocation to release hostages.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 14 2022 8:42 utc | 351

@PJB #343

Fake video. That’s a video of 2019 fire on a ship flying Tanzanian flag in the Kerch Strait, flipped horizontally and tinted green. Here’s the original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvagqQePyp4

Posted by: S | Apr 14 2022 8:43 utc | 352

Washington to begin varying types of weapons sent to Ukraine.

"Washington is expanding the range of weapons deliveries to Ukraine to include artillery, armored vehicles and helicopters, the Pentagon revealed on Wednesday. US President Joe Biden credited the $2.6 billion in weapons he has supplied to Kiev since February with defeating what he called the Russian plan to “conquer and control” Ukraine."

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 14 2022 8:47 utc | 353

Russian force will continue to destroy Nato weapons supplied to Ukraine as soon as they enter the country.


"Russia will perceive convoys delivering arms from NATO states to Ukraine as legitimate targets for its military once they reach Kiev controlled territory, Deputy Foreign Minister Sergey Ryabkov warned in an interview published on Wednesday.

Regular contact with the US is impossible for Russia, considering “Washington’s unabashed support for militaristic intentions of the Kiev regime [and] the pouring of modern weapons” into the country by NATO members, the diplomat explained Moscow’s goal now is to make it abundantly clear for the US and its allies that Russia will use harsh methods in response to attempts to stymie its military in Ukraine. "

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 14 2022 9:06 utc | 354

Antonio Guterres, is Bilderberger, a member of the WEF, and a Club de Madrid member, what ever Biden and the USA decides on with regards to the false claims that Russian forces have committed genocide in Ukraine the UN Secretary General will agree with.

"The UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres has not followed the example of US President Joe Biden and has stopped short of calling the events in Ukraine a “genocide.”

On Wednesday, a day after Biden appeared to endorse Kiev’s claims that the goal of the Russian offensive was to exterminate the Ukrainian people, Guterres was asked by a journalist if what is happening in Ukraine could be referred to as “genocide.”"

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 14 2022 9:12 utc | 355

Well... Donald Trump got the "Genocide" memo.

God speed, Russia.

Posted by: Seer | Apr 14 2022 9:18 utc | 356

The 51st State (UK) upgrading one of its RAF bases to hold more US nukes.

"The report cites Hans Kristensen, the director of the nuclear information project at the Federation of American Scientists (FAS), as saying that the British site being upgraded to host the nukes is the US airbase at RAF Lakenheath, located 100 kilometers northeast of London."

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 14 2022 9:37 utc | 357


https://t.me/boris_rozhin/42275

[Forwarded from RIA Novosti]
Russian Ministry of Defense:

The source of the fire on the cruiser "Moscow" is localized. There is no open gorenje. Ammunition explosions have stopped.

▪️ The cruiser "Moscow" retains buoyancy. The main missile armament is not damaged.

The crew was evacuated to the ships of the Black Sea Fleet located in the area.

Measures are being taken to tow the cruiser to the port.

▪️ The causes of the fire are being established.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 9:53 utc | 358

Whew, w/e happened, hit or fire, it's not sunk as some channels reported.

https://t.me/boris_rozhin/42277

In general, we are waiting for specifics on the damage to the "Moscow".
One way or another, the ship will obviously not be able to take part in the operation in Ukraine.
The Kremlin said that Putin was informed about the situation with the cruiser.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 9:56 utc | 359

Posted by: S | Apr 13 2022 21:29 utc | 142

Excuse me S, but I haven't (knowingly) posted anything by you to Telegram, so I really don't know what you're talking about

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 14 2022 10:08 utc | 360

@Boo | Apr 14 2022 9:53 utc | 355

Same message, slightly different translation from https://t.me/intelslava/25203

🇷🇺⚡️Russian Ministry of Defense:

▪️ The source of fire on the cruiser "Moskva" is localized. There is no open fire. Explosions of ammunition have been stopped.

▪️ Cruiser "Moskva" keeps buoyancy. The main missile armament was not damaged.

▪️ The crew was evacuated to the ships of the Black Sea Fleet in the area.

▪️ Arrangements are being made to tow the cruiser to port.

▪️ The cause of the fire is under investigation.

---

So it looks like the ship has not been sunk. That is is towed to port seems to confirm it floats and that the danger of more fire/explosions is not severe.

The cause of the fire is the key question.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 14 2022 10:11 utc | 361

If the missile cruiser was hit by Ukrainian missiles, it is a fair attack, there have been many launches of missiles from Russian ships.

If it was an attack by nato or Western mercenaries, it would mean a desperate attempt at escalation by reprisal from Russia.

As thousands of soldiers surrender and the secrets of Azovstal and its denizens are inevitably revealed a transfer of attention to such a incident at sea or even directly upon Russian land is not a surprise.

Let’s not forget that the Mediterranean is where the naval face off is. Anything that trips up there means mass destruction and inevitable escalation to a uncontrollable full scale war between West and the RoW – it stops being a Special Op – and escalates what has been a proxy war to full scale world war.

That would mean an end to not only Nato but the EU and mass poverty for us westerners as there will be no imperial lands to Rob to keep us subdued at home.

There are these who do want to see Armageddon.

Fantasising idiots who believe that their experience and success at shooter-up video games means they are great (armchair) warriors, if they could control robot weapons, they might be right.after all Obama escalated such drone deaths, the killers would do from their clean offices during their 9-5 days. Shoot up kids before picking up their own from school.

Others are :
Rapture idiots. Racist idiots. Loser Nazis. The Great Wizards.

That a publicised gathering of the MIC at the Whitehouse is announced is significant. As is the announcement of more weapons to Ukraine – who exactly is going to physically receive these weapons from the nato countries? The cauldroned Nazis, a few thousand crazies at most left? The equally nearly cauldroned Ukrainian army, many tens of thousands of these sacrificial soil enrichers?
How are they going to get anything hundreds of miles from the European borders?

It is obvious we are entering the final stages of certain defeat for the West in their proxy ‘war’, as the myth of the new ubermensch is snuffed out before it gathers steam over the next few years, as the whole plan seemed to be

It is the last attempt this century to invade Russia and break it up and take its riches and to stop the BRI new silk roads western reach to retain control over the wealth it would generate. The first lot who did that made themselves fantastically rich, these traders made nations and bought kings and launched empires under various guises to get control of the eastern end of the original Silk Road. They invented new names for their dynasties which still possess us in Europe and the West so that we do not even believe we are their slaves!

A sunken battleship does have effect on public moral – remember what happened in the Falklands – but it won’t change the outcome of the special operation.

I expect all Nazis to be officially destroyed on the 18th. No more bonkers AH worship.

Peace and prosperity for all humankind is possible but only at the expense of humiliation of the fantasists.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Apr 14 2022 10:19 utc | 362

Posted by: Lex | Apr 14 2022 2:39 utc | 276

Thank you for that Lex, I sometimes feel that we in the West live on a different planet. My mother used to tell me as a child that my Russian-Jewish grandfather Rafael (everybody called him Rifel), died of sorrow in 1943, the pain being too much for him. In reality of course, I think he died of pneumonia but y'know how once the mind suffers, so too does the body.

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 14 2022 10:29 utc | 363

The cause of the fire is the key question.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 14 2022 10:11 utc | 358

Not really unusual though is it on a warship in combat ? Clearly it was unlikely to be a missile attack as it would have taken out all the magazines since that is what anti-ship missiles are supposed to do.

Andrei Martyanov suggests one magazine with shells for the guns fore may have triggered -


If the missile cruiser was hit by Ukrainian missiles, it is a fair attack, there have been many launches of missiles from Russian ships.

Yes it sounds like on points it might be fair and the game rules are being observed - that's the great thing about games and rules and sporting chances - after all it is only paintball !

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Apr 14 2022 10:33 utc | 364

Posted by: ptb | Apr 14 2022 3:41 utc | 302

This from Russian MoD

[Forwarded from Kotsnews]
Ministry of Defence:

The source of fire on the Moskva cruiser has been contained. There is no open burning. Ammunition explosions have been stopped.

The Moskva cruiser remains buoyant. The main missile armament is not damaged.

The cruiser's crew has been evacuated to the ships of the Black Sea Fleet located in the area.

Measures are being taken to tow the cruiser to the port.

Causes of the fire are being determined.

@sashakots

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 14 2022 10:38 utc | 365

Regarding the Moskva:

This is another effect of the US "bleeding Russia" slowly, which is clearly part of the American strategy (as it was with the USSR). A few more of these to go and Russia will have nothing resembling a navy in very short order (6 - 9 months).

US strategy with USSR hardly succeeded. What caused USSR to crash was Brezhnev living in stagnation for decades (bit like Merkel in Germany) and Andropov realising it needed "reform" and putting Gorbachev there - but he needed an Enforcer and brought in the drunk Yeltsin as Construction boss.

It was Chernobyl which did for USSR with the phenomenal impact on Soviet GDP to contain the mess. Gorbachev trusted too much and events have since proven why every Soviet leader distrusted the West with good reason.

As for USA - it used Jewish oligarchs to buy up Soviet resources and warehouse them for US corporation - Khordokovsky was there to get oil assets for Exxon. It was typical Carpetbagger stuff. Berezhovsky brought in Putin to provide Yeltsin with a "roof" so the KGB did not put his family on trial for theft and treason. That was the deal.

Yeltsin was owned by Bill Clinton.

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Apr 14 2022 10:42 utc | 366

@Barofsky #357:

Excuse me S, but I haven't (knowingly) posted anything by you to Telegram, so I really don't know what you're talking about

I never said you posted anything by me to Telegram.

I said I have complained twice about your posting of links to messages from private Telegram channels. The problem with such messages is that they can only be seen by people with a Telegram client, so it’s better to post links to messages from public Telegram channels—if possible, of course.

Posted by: S | Apr 14 2022 11:03 utc | 367

From ASB Military News

https://t.me/asbmil/1034
Last night, A fire and subsequent broadside munitions blast have done serious damage to the Moskva missile cruiser of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, the crew was evacuated, the Russian defense ministry said on Thursday. There’s no confirmation from Russia that this was done by Ukraine. Ukraine has previously also tried to take credit for a fire onboard a russian ship, saying they “hit it” which turned out to be BS, so just be aware the Ukrainian claims are ‘heavily’ not confirmed. It also still appears to be afloat, there’s no confirmation of it sinking. (Ukraine tries to take credit for any mishap in the russian military, out of desperation)

https://t.me/asbmil/1035
Russian MOD reports the fire at the Moskva missile cruiser has been contained & the explosions ceased, the crew was evacuated and the vessel is being tugged to its port.

Additionally, the main missile armament was NOT damaged

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 14 2022 11:09 utc | 368

The US is going to share intelligence with Ukraine that will allow Ukraine to attack targets in Crimea.
Would the US like it if China shared intelligence with Cuba so Cuba can attack targets in Guantanamo?

Posted by: passerby | Apr 14 2022 11:09 utc | 369

Latest news suggest that it may be possible to repair Moskva. Turkey will not let it pass through the Bosporus until the end of the Operation as its home port is Sevastopol, so it will have to be repaired in the Black Sea. Not sure if there is enough space for it at the Zaliv shipyard dock in Kerch as there are two Project 23900 amphibious assault ships (30,000 tonnes standard displacement) being constructed there at the moment. Perhaps the repairs can be done at the northern dock of the Sevastopol shipyard.

I hope there were no casualties as a result of the incident.

Posted by: S | Apr 14 2022 11:15 utc | 370

From Gonzalo Lira. Video of US Passport. Joseph Ward Clark, born 1987

Chechens captured an American mercenary
https://t.me/realCRP/4330

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 14 2022 11:25 utc | 371

On the contrary, Ukrainian atrocities are real, here the videos on how they treat Russian POWS, strong images, not to before or after eating, then, yo uhave to guess what is that sound you hear in the end....

https://t.me/EmbajadaRusaEs/288

Here, advisor to Ukrianian president chief of staff, with the most absolute tranquility, stating Ukraine will become a new Israel but "of bigger and scarier scale"...he goes on to recommend all those who feel like not being able to cope with that to leave for countries like Spain....Obviously his children will not go to the front, and, in the endm in case they fall in the hands of the Russian, they are given the possibility to survive and return home with thei injuries cared and treated....

https://t.me/inessas100/1102

It is obvious that this is so by design, as it was in Afghanistan, Syria, Lybia, Iraq, Ruanda, and all the places where US/UK/France/NATO wanted to unleash terror for geopolitical gains...

This is why denazification of Ukraine will not be enough, as the planners of nazi Ukraine remain far away...planning....

Posted by: Givi | Apr 14 2022 11:39 utc | 372

Things are so in Ukraine and the world because of people like this ideologue Arestovich, who fill their pockets with million of dollar in funds while others suffer, and their masters in the Atlantic...

Posted by: Givi | Apr 14 2022 11:42 utc | 373

Mr. Putin, please blow Americans $800 million dollar shit up. Thank you.

Posted by: Circe | Apr 14 2022 11:59 utc | 374

How we arrived here and how NATO got with submitting such huge country to fascist rule...

Remembering the 2014 Zaphorozhye anti-Maidan resistance, a bunch of Zaphorozhye citizens held on during 6 hours surrounded by raging fascists armed with axes, stones and sticks...After that, and without any police intervention to end the harassment, it was them who were detained and reigstered by Ukrainian police...Then their whereabouts went unknown...

https://t.me/c/1701699479/52328

https://vk.com/video-54358340_456241236

Posted by: Givi | Apr 14 2022 12:19 utc | 375

When 98% of Ukrainian Army are dead, captured, surrendered, deserted the press will still say Ukraine is winning, Russia is demoralized and the troops are starving. When Zelensky drops dead of an overdose he will still be America’s heartthrob. Any red blooded American boy who fails to have a mancrush on Zelensky will be a Putin lover and a traitor.

Don’t wait for the media to locate reality.

That ship sank with all hands on board. Anything else is Russian propaganda.

Posted by: Oldhippie | Apr 14 2022 12:20 utc | 376

There has been little attention paid to the latest couple days of MoD announcements, with specific regard to missiles and artillery:

13 April:

💥Missile troops and artillery hit 693 enemy assets: 676 areas of Ukrainian personnel and military equipment concentration, 11 command posts and 5 logistics depots.

14 April:

💥Missile troops and artiller hit 770 assets, including 9 command posts, 101 strong points, 548 areas of concentration of Ukrainian manpower and weapons, 110 artillery firing positions, 1 S-300 anti-aircraft missile system and 1 ammunition depot.

693 + 548 "areas of Ukrainian personnel and military equipment concentration" = ten thousand personnel struck by artillery in Donbass in the last couple of days?

Posted by: veto | Apr 14 2022 12:30 utc | 377

Random thoughts
- the loss of that Russian ship is huge. If another one somehow gets downed its going to be game changing. Russia is most likely preparing for retaliation. Probably Odessa will be target if not Kyiv.
- Mariupol seems to be going well for Russia and seems the Chechens are bringing their A game. I know they are allowed cell phones unlike Russians but still seems they are possibly most efficient force in Mariupol.
- Not a lot of news on Russian drones. Shouldnt they be destroying potential convoys as they enter Ukraine from Poland?
- How many missiles does Russia have? Seems they have used a ton already and the real fight is probably not even started. Wonder how their stocks are doing and how much they are producing now.
- It seems true that Russia has called even more reserves. That means the fight will only get bigger and fiercer.
- I dont think Kiyv has much time left. The comedian most likely is evacuating or already has. Ukraine keeps shelling Russia, that means Kyiv government buildings will be leveled pretty soon al the very least.

Posted by: comandante | Apr 14 2022 12:41 utc | 378

@ 258

Any idea if ground to space missiles [killing satellites] might be in the cards?

Posted by: Tom Tomson | Apr 14 2022 12:55 utc | 379

I would think destroying someones military satellites would be equivalent to declaration of war.

Posted by: comandante | Apr 14 2022 13:06 utc | 380

The most I see Russia doing to push back against the Americans communication sharing with Ukraine would be more use of their electronic warfare capabilities to disrupt the ability of the US to communicate this information to Ukraine C&C areas. I cant believe Russia would destroy US satellites with kinetic weapons (maybe, maybe screw up their programing by hacking them to ruin the information, but even that seems unlikely)

Posted by: Kadath | Apr 14 2022 13:18 utc | 381

comandante @376

I was wondering about this when Maxar vouched for satellite images of Bucha that were supposedly fake. I can’t judge the truth of it either way but I’m sure RF decision-makers know if Maxar was lying and Maxar is (supposedly) a private company.

Taking out their sats might be considered a reasonable compromise, although I don’t know if Maxar is an important source of targeting information on RF forces.

Posted by: anon2020 | Apr 14 2022 13:22 utc | 382

@373 veto - re: 1200 artillery strikes in 2 days

seems busy...

Posted by: ptb | Apr 14 2022 13:28 utc | 383

How the Western media narrative changed, in fact u-turned, after two years of population conditioning to fear and proapganda 24/7...The pandemic was totally instrumental to this...

https://twitter.com/ciudadfutura/status/1514558752879525895/photo/1

Posted by: Givi | Apr 14 2022 13:29 utc | 384

Macro compilation ( 86 video ) of Ukrainian civilians testimonies, to keep as record for the next Nuremberg trials...

https://twitter.com/Nazakezu/status/1508078028588470277

Posted by: Givi | Apr 14 2022 13:39 utc | 385

Tortures on Ukrainian children by the fascist inhumane regime the whole West supports in Ukraine....

https://twitter.com/CordobaInaqui/status/1514227925477851140

https://twitter.com/CordobaInaqui/status/1514318805589143552

Posted by: Givi | Apr 14 2022 13:44 utc | 386

"...I didn't say it was a hoax!!!! You're putting words in my mouth!.." Barofsky@337

I'll take your word for it. I must have misunderstood you. My apologies.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 14 2022 13:46 utc | 387

@378

As far as I'm aware Maxar never directly backed the NYT story on Bucha. In fact the Pentagon (whom Maxar works for) disavowed the Bucha story claiming it had no way to verify it.

Posted by: ChasingGlowies | Apr 14 2022 13:57 utc | 388

Dances with Bears on what happens next:

"....A Canadian military veteran with NATO warfighting expertise analyzes the operational map this way: “I believe that the Stavka is sucking the Ukrainians in by leaving the east-west corridors open so they are none too concerned, rightly or wrongly, about the deliveries coming from the west. The Ukrainians are being drawn into the cauldron east of the Dnieper River; this move is also fed by their deep belief in their own propaganda – ‘we chased them away from Kiev!’ ‘We’ve stopped them in Kharkov and the Donbass!’ ‘Mariupol is still resisting!’ They also believe what their US trainers and advisers have been telling them is the effectiveness of NATO weaponry and other support. The constant nonsense about Russian weakness spouted by the media and politicians in safe havens over here does them no good either. This attitude seems to suit the Russians just fine....”

http://johnhelmer.net/ukraine-is-smashed-this-is-how-it-will-be-repaired/#more-47903

Gilbert Doctorow considers similar questions today https://gilbertdoctorow.com/

Posted by: bevin | Apr 14 2022 14:07 utc | 389

Posted by: ChasingGlowies | Apr 14 2022 13:57 utc | 384

Plausible deniability. Leak the information weapon out discreetly and let it take a life of its own ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 14 2022 14:15 utc | 390

Its that "deep belief in their own propaganda" that is at the heart of b's post.

Washington is behaving as if it really believed that, steeled by fascist indoctrination, the Ukrainian forces were actually winning. Believing this-though they know that it is actually nonsense concocted at their command to impress the populace which they so despise- they are acting logically in pouring weapons and ammunition into the war zone. Where it is likely to be scooped up by the advancing Russians or stolen by one of the many thieves running the show.

The real danger is not that NATO believes that Ukraine is winning but that it has convinced itself that it is not actually at war, despite the fact that it is supplying not just materiel and intelligence but personnel. The reality is that NATO is at war but that, so far, Russia has not responded to its attacks. And that is what has emboldened Field Marshal Stoltenberg to authorise attacks on Russian civilian targets. According to the Laws of War this would make a Russian missile attack on Norway, for example a reasonable response.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 14 2022 14:22 utc | 391

How does one tow a sunken missle cruiser?

Posted by: sln2002 | Apr 14 2022 14:27 utc | 392

Vladimir Zelensky told the head of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, that Kiev needs $7 billion a month to pay salaries (Bloomberg)

https://twitter.com/GeromanAT/status/1514564434504687621?cxt=HHwWioC9wYSV6IQqAAAA

That is what Ukraine expects from the EU in the bagrain: Our lifes for your money. My guess is that part of the bargain that Ukraine expect is that the EU will pay for rebuilding Ukraine and keep paying even after that. Since 1991 Ukraine has been a bottomless pit of money, a lawless state plundered by ruthless oligarchs. Since money is drying out now with Russian gas being re directed to Asia, the oligarchs want to tap into EU money to keep the scheme going. Its basically the poisoning of the EU with Ukrainian lawlessness.

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Apr 14 2022 14:30 utc | 393

@387 bevin

Wonder if you may be overthinking it. All this is standard MO for the US foreign policy since 1945. Proxy war, extreme right wingers boosted for their willingness to fight, look the other way wrt/ terrorism and all kinds of atrocities, no regard for population, shameless whitewashing of the reportage. What's new?

Posted by: ptb | Apr 14 2022 14:30 utc | 394

Posted by Peace Patriot (150)

Indeed, I have the local NPR station on during my commute and find myself screaming at and flipping off the radio frequently these days. Sad days living through the mainstream denial of crumbling Empire.

Posted by: JJB | Apr 14 2022 14:32 utc | 395

Sorry to disappoint some folks here. US Pentagon just confirmed that Moskva has its own power to sail back to Sevastopol for repair. Basically, US DOD poked the Ukraine's bald lying face. Of course, the cheering chorus of west MNM will just sweep this embarrassment under its already bulking rug.

Posted by: KitaySupporter | Apr 14 2022 14:43 utc | 396

Old ship, old systems, corroded wires, salt decay, random sparks and shorts....built 1979 (not 1983 as I had read), not refurbished in 2016-2018 as Forbes reported...if you haven;t worked on a big ship (or small ship) you have no idea of the power of maritime corrosion. None. It is amazing. So this ship was a creaky, ancient, rusty conglomeration of patches and add-ons over the years rife with short potential, with fire potential. Plus as I said earlier it might have hit a mine. Here though is the thing - you better hope that fire just happened because the ship was old, and then the Ukies took credit, because if that is the case then this ship damage will NOT be seen by the Russians as a major escalation provocation and we are not that much closer to WW3. If that ship had been hit by NATO coordinated missiles then right now we'd be reading about the sinking of a British cruiser in the Med.....

Posted by: Boomheist | Apr 14 2022 14:43 utc | 397

@Arne Hartman

sorry mate i disagree,the idea that the EU engages or will engage in charity is silly as fuck, Zelensky will get that money but as always it's gonna be in the form of loans much like the so called lethal "aid" that has already been provided by both the EU and US.The moment the Kiev regime loses its usefulness or it's replaced post conflict ,it's collection time

Posted by: Lolgege | Apr 14 2022 14:43 utc | 398

rt.com: Russia says two attack helicopters reportedly entered Russian airspace and delivered at least six strikes on residential buildings.

Didn't Russia just threaten to bomb gov't buildings in Kiev if the attacks on Russian soil didn't stop? I guess this is Zelensky saying, "Yes, please!"

Posted by: aquileia | Apr 14 2022 14:50 utc | 399

I think UA beat RU badly arround Kiev

It was clear to media military experts in February that the Russian army was top notch and that it was overpowering the Ukrainian army - and in April that the Russian army was worthless and that the Ukrainian army would defeat it. But the truth is much more complicated and, most importantly, more interesting. I'm not a military expert - just a reader who has networks widely scattered across a lot of industry press and quiet professionals who don't play media experts. And thanks to that, sometimes I manage to read a capital catch, which suddenly explains something that doesn't make sense about the war in Ukraine.

https://vlkovobloguje-wordpress-com.translate.goog/2022/04/12/vsechno-co-vam-vojensti-experti-a-novinari-nerekli-o-taktice-geostrategii-a-zajimavych-bojovych-akcich-na-ukrajine/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US#more-981541

Posted by: Moribundus | Apr 14 2022 14:51 utc | 400

« previous page | next page »

The comments to this entry are closed.