Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 13, 2022

U.S. Military Intelligence Official Refutes 'Russian Atrocities' Claims

Russian soldiers left the town Bucha in Ukraine on March 30. Two days later the Ukrainian Gestapo like SBU and men of the fascist Azov battalion moved in to find and remove 'traitors'. On April 2/3 video was published that showed freshly killed men laying on the streets of Bucha. Several of them had white arm bands signaling to Russian forces to see them as friendlies.

The 'west' and Ukrainian officials immediately called those dead the result of 'Russian atrocities'.

I had called it a provocation:

The Bucha 'Russian' atrocities propaganda onslaught may have worked well in the 'west' but it lacks evidence that Russia had anything to do with it.

The former Indian ambassador M.K. Bhadrakumar calls it an outright fake: ...

And a fake it was.

Thankfully there are still some sane U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency officials and William Arkin is talking with them:

Last Wednesday, Bucha Mayor Anatolii Fedoruk said that 320 people had been killed in the town of 37,000.
...
"It is ugly," a senior official with the Defense Intelligence Agency tells Newsweek. "But we forget that two peer competitors fought over Bucha for 36 days, and that the town was occupied, that Russian convoys and positions inside the town were attacked by the Ukrainians and vice versa, that ground combat was intense, that the town itself was literally fought over."
...
"I am not for a second excusing Russia's war crimes, nor forgetting that Russia invaded the country," says the DIA official. "But the number of actual deaths is hardly genocide. If Russia had that objective or was intentionally killing civilians, we'd see a lot more than less than .01 percent in places like Bucha."

320 of 37,000 is not .01 percent. But we do not know how many of those dead were Russian or Ukrainian soldiers. Some of the dead were so called 'civilian defenders' which were supposedly local civilians to whom the government had handed guns to 'fight the Russians'. During a war a 'civilian' with a government issued gun shooting at enemy soldiers is a combatant, not a civilian.

The DIA official continues:

"Have the Russians been indiscriminate? Absolutely. But it shouldn't too surprising. It's part and parcel of the Russian way of war, lining up their artillery guns and letting loose," the DIA official says. "But here in particular, in Bucha and the other towns around it—Irpin and Hostomel—there was intense ground fighting that involved almost 20 battalion tactical groups."

I doubt that there is really intentional 'indiscriminate' Russian artillery fire. The Russians have held back quite a lot and paid in blood for it.

One should also note that the often shown mass graves in Bucha were not from recent actions but had been dug on March 10 after heavy fighting when Russian soldiers tried to enter the town:

Maxar Technologies, which collects and publishes satellite imagery of Ukraine, said the first signs of excavation for a mass grave at the Church of St. Andrew and Pyervozvannoho All Saints were seen on March 10.

"More recent coverage on March 31st shows the grave site with an approximately 45-foot-long trench in the southwestern section of the area near the church," Maxar said.

The DIA official clearly says the civilian casualties in Ukraine, which are quite low, get overplayed and that attributing them solely to Russia is wrong:

On Monday, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights said it had recorded 1,793 deaths and 2,439 injuries to civilians in all of Ukraine since the war began on February 24. U.S. intelligence believes that the true number is some five times greater, as previously reported by Newsweek.

"It's bad," the DIA official says. "And I don't want to say it's not too bad. But I can't help but stress that beyond the clamor, we are not seeing the war clearly. Where there has been intense ground fighting and a standoff between Ukrainian and Russian forces, the destruction is almost total. But in terms of actual damage in Kyiv or other cities outside the battle zone, and with regard to the number of civilian casualties overall, the evidence contradicts the dominant narrative."
...
The official says that it is dangerous to attribute one or even several graves and scenes of civilian disaster to Russian barbarism rather than just being realistic about the depredations of war.

The official also worries that attributing the destructiveness only to Russian conduct, rather than to war itself, creates future dangers.

"If we blame all the damage on Putin, as if he commanded it and that it is due solely to Russian war crimes, we are going to walk away from Ukraine with some illusion in our heads that modern warfare can be fought more cleanly, that the Ukraine war is an anomaly solely created by Russia's behavior. This war is just demonstrating how destructive any war on this scale would be."

One should avoid to wage war whenever possible but it also important to end wars as quickly as possible:

"Maybe it's heartless to urge that we look at Ukraine with precision, without human emotion," says the DIA official.

"But for those who think tens of thousands have died and Russia is intentionally killing civilians and pursuing genocide, I say that's even more of an argument to find a diplomatic solution to cease fighting. But nothing is going to happen in the coming days or weeks to change the reality on the battlefield. That's why stopping the fighting should be our highest priority."

Unfortunately ending the war is not a priority for the U.S. nor the EU. Their leaders are drunk on the idea that the Ukraine defeated Russia around Kiev. They seem to believe that the Ukraine can defeat Russia everywhere.

But the retreat from Kiev was ordered because the deceptive move towards it had fulfilled its purpose of keeping a large number of Ukrainian soldiers in place around Kiev while the Russian army opened the land corridor to Crimea.

The Ukraine has no chance to defeat the Russian army no matter how many old tanks or airplanes the U.S. and EU countries move to it.

Sending more weapons only prolongs the war and inevitably creates more military and civilian casualties on both sides.

Posted by b on April 13, 2022 at 14:55 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Posted by: S | Apr 13 2022 23:28 utc | 192

Well, confusion continues to reign. I posted the link to Pepe's channel. Guess what? I do not have an invite nor was I added by Pepe. I simply put the link in the the search box, found it, clicked "join". As far as I can tell, the link I gave in my post, directly from Pepe in his Unz article, IS a public channel.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 13 2022 23:38 utc | 201

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 13 2022 23:33 utc | 194

aha, this is the problem. You need to teach Firefox how to open telegram links. I don't have firefox so I cant help you, but search on the web about how to set up automatic opening of telegram links in firefox or some such, not sure what it's called exactly (i use chrome).

Posted by: Boo | Apr 13 2022 23:41 utc | 202

Correction to my last: On remembrance I didn't search for that link. I searched for Pepe Escobar, then searched through the results until I found someone referencing Pepe's link in their profile, then I clicked on that link, got to Pepe's channel, and clicked join.

Still not either invited or assigned by Pepe.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 13 2022 23:41 utc | 203

https://t.me/boris_rozhin/42188

There are reports that after a fire and an explosion of ammunition on the ship, the cruiser "Moscow" sank. Someone's specific fuck-up.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 13 2022 23:45 utc | 204

@Boo #196:

How do you see posts w/o telegram client?

If the channel is public, everyone can read it on the web. For example, if you go to https://t.me/boris_rozhin, it shows a “Preview channel” link at the very bottom; if you click it, it takes you to https://t.me/s/boris_rozhin, which shows all posts in the channel. (Note that your Telegram client may be “hijacking” these URLs, so try to do it on a computer without a Telegram client.)

Posted by: S | Apr 13 2022 23:46 utc | 205

Posted by: Boo | Apr 13 2022 23:41 utc | 199

Figured it out. The Firefox handler is looking for "usr/bin/telegram_desktop", whereas I have it installed as a Flatpak. Can't remember why I installed it as a Flatpak, probably because of some problem installing the official rpm package. And it must have been a problem because I usually avoid Flatpak like the plague. I prefer appimages because they are very simple to work with.

Linux problems. Major apps don't support Linux, so you have to deal with less than official stuff.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 13 2022 23:52 utc | 206

Posted by: S | Apr 13 2022 23:46 utc | 202

Ha, cheers, I always had the clients, both phone and desktop. Just tested it w/o the client and yes it goes into the usual web page where there is a context widget that opens the modified URL with the inserted s/. Finally, understood what ppl are complaining about with the "private" channels :)

Posted by: Boo | Apr 13 2022 23:54 utc | 207

@Richard Steven Hack #194:

The part where opening in browser and getting the link to the Telegram app does not work on my Linux box. Says it can't find the app...

Ah, I see. It seems your Linux distro doesn’t resolve the tg:// URI scheme properly. Unfortunately, I don’t have enough experience with Linux to help you fix that.

#198:

As far as I can tell, the link I gave in my post, directly from Pepe in his Unz article, IS a public channel.

If it was a public channel, it would have a nice name and a “Preview channel” link to a web preview.

Posted by: S | Apr 13 2022 23:58 utc | 208

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 13 2022 23:52 utc | 203

Glad you managed to solve it. I only use Ubuntu nowadays at work, so would not have been able to even help you with your Fedora/rpm supporting distro.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 0:00 utc | 209

My question: where was the ship currently at? Presumably in the Black Sea, but where? Was it in range of a Neptune antiship missile? Ukrainians are claiming they hit it with this which has a range of 190 miles:
Neptune (cruise missile)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neptune_(cruise_missile)

Reportedly according to an unknown person's post from 2021, Ukraine was installing Neptune missile batteries in and around Odessa. If Russia did not take those out earlier, that is going to look like a serious mistake.

Fire breaks out onboard Moskva missile cruiser, crew evacuated - defense ministry
A fire caused a blast of the broadside munitions. The ship received serious damage, the Russian defense ministry said
https://tass.com/emergencies/1437443

MOSCOW, April 14. /TASS/. A fire and subsequent broadside munitions blast have done serious damage to the Moskva missile cruiser of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, the crew was evacuated, the Russian defense ministry said on Thursday.

"A fire onboard the Mosvka missile cruiser caused a blast of the broadside munitions. The ship received serious damage. The crew was evacuated," the ministry said, adding that a probe in underway.

The Moskva, the Russian Black Sea Fleet flagship, is the head vessel of Project 1164 Atlant. It was put into operation as the Slava in 1983 and received its current name in 1996. The ship is equipped with 16 P-1000 Vulkan missile launchers.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 14 2022 0:04 utc | 210

Posted by: S | Apr 13 2022 23:58 utc | 205

So how did I join it? Because I am joined to it. I'm looking at it. It says "you have joined this channel." So how can it be a private channel?

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 14 2022 0:05 utc | 211

I received this message from a timber supplier here in Australia. It directly concerns me as I am in the middle of building my house and this has caused my costs to go up by AUD$40,000. That's a 25% increase starting on May 1st!

I know who to blame and it certainly isnt Moscow and now it's personal. I will be doing everything legal I can to hurt the USA and raise support to seperate Australia from the USA and remove Australia from the Five Eyes, that I can.

I think things will change in the West very quickly because of people like me facing situations like this.


****** European crisis and the impact on wood supply.

Sorry, but there are more price rises & there will be more supply disruption coming as a result of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

As the conflict in Europe escalates, the availability and price of EWP and Pine Framing will become more volatile. Around one third of all wood fibre on the planet comes from Russia and whilst Russian imports of timber products are not banned, the wood simply isn’t coming here any time soon. Here’s why.

Firstly, no one can transfer money into Russia to pay for goods. There is a platform known as SWIFT (Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunications) which is used to handle the vast majority of all international money transfers and SWIFT banned all transactions with Russia on the day the Ukraine borders were compromised. So whilst our importers can technically import EWP floor systems & framing from Russia, the Russian mills won’t sell them, as they can’t get paid.

Secondly, the three largest shipping companies in the world have banned all movements of Russian shipping containers both in and out of Russia. So even if we could convince a Russian mill to sell some EWP to us, the wood couldn’t board a ship to sail here.

How long will this last?

Well your guess is as good as ours, but as long as the trade sanctions remain in place, you would imagine that we are not going to see any Russian wood coming here any time soon. The Chinese will no doubt ramp up their purchases of timber from Russia, so in time you might imagine Chinese mills producing EWP that meets Australian code, but that could take months, if not years to establish Quality Control systems that are adequate to meet the Building Code of Australia.

It’s not all bad news, as most of the EWP that is sold in Australia does not come from Russia. At a guess, it’s probably in the order of 10 to 15%, but that is enough to have a significant effect on our market.

When will we start to see the impact?

Well all EWP wholesalers have announced a 25% price increase effective 1st of May, but the real issue will be supply. At this stage we expect to see supply consistent with recent activity up until June and then from July, we expect significant additional delays, in the order of months not just weeks.

What about Australian wood?

There are a number of local manufacturers of Pine Framing, however the production volumes are insufficient to fully supply local demand and Wesbeam is the only Australian manufacturer of EWP. This means that supply will once again be patchy and the price will be driven upwards.

We are working on supply channel solutions which will help to alleviate availability constraints on Pine Framing. We already have the ability to manufacture Floor Truss systems as suitable replacements for EWP in two storey and high-set dwellings. To facilitate the anticipated demand for Floor Truss Systems we are increasing our production capacity, so when the inevitable EWP shortages take effect we will be well placed to offer our Floor Truss System as a viable alternative.

Number one suggestion is to give us as much lead time as possible to help give us enough time to source material for you. Number two suggestion would be to give us a stick list of exactly what you need to build the floor as per your engineering. If our suppliers don’t have to design the floor for you, they will likely accept the order and hopefully reduce lead times.

Of course none of this is good news and we take no pleasure in letting you know, but it would be irresponsible of us not to keep you informed. Fore warned is fore armed and we will do whatever we can to try and help you out as best we can. *******

Posted by: Denise | Apr 14 2022 0:16 utc | 212

@201/202 re: Moskva ship, hit/fire/explosion/capsized etc

Report: it set off warheads in one of the batteries of 8 huge anti-ship missiles mounted above deck on each side, on ships of that class.

If it were a weapon system Ukraine already had, raises the question of why hadn't it already been used. Perhaps talk of UK supplying anti-ship missiles a few days ago indeed materialized.

Air launched anti ship missiles could also do it, eg if they made the pieces to attach some new weapons to Su-24's, which are made for this role and of which there should still be some remaining.

Posted by: ptb | Apr 14 2022 0:28 utc | 213

From Forbes. The author claims it's plausible. Until we see pics of the ship - if it's still afloat - or an official Russian explanation other than a fire, there's no telling.

The Ukrainians Claim They Damaged A Russian Cruiser
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/04/13/the-ukrainians-claim-they-damaged-a-russian-cruiser-be-skeptical/?sh=281892e13971

It’s possible Moscow is trying to muddy the waters, so to speak, in order to rob Kyiv of an information victory.

To be fair, Ukrainian sources more than once have reported hits on Russian warships blockading Odessa and other ports since Russia widened its war on Ukraine starting the night of Feb. 23.

Just one report is verified. Ukrainian troops in the besieged city of Mariupol in late March scored a hit on a Russian patrol boat using an old anti-tank guided missile.

Compared to a Konkurs ATGM, Neptune is a much more sophisticated and, to Russian sailors, dangerous weapon. But the pre-war Ukrainian navy probably possessed just one Neptune battery out of the half-dozen or so it planned to induct this spring.

Kyiv launched development of the missile back in 2013 and completed the first test shots in 2018. The Neptune system fires R-360 cruise missiles that fly at low altitude as far as 180 miles. The missile borrows its booster from the S-125 anti-air missile and uses an MS-400 turbojet for cruising. The radar seeker head has a detection range of around 30 miles.

A Neptune battery includes a truck-mounted launcher with four rounds, a command truck and a pair of resupply trucks plus links to a mobile Mineral-U radar with a 370-mile range.

If the Ukrainians really did hit Moskva with a Neptune or two, it means they first managed to cobble together, man and deploy at least one complete battery with all its supporting systems—all in the middle of a devastating war.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 14 2022 0:34 utc | 214

From Army_Russia Telegram channel...

According to preliminary information, the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet, the cruiser Moskva, sank.

The statement of the Russian Ministry of Defense (https://t.me/bbbreaking/122689), which appeared by 2 am, says that as a result of the fire, a partial detonation of ammunition occurred, and part of the crew was evacuated.

According to information from Ukraine, which appeared long before the statement of the RF Ministry of Defense, the Moskva cruiser was destroyed by the Neptune anti-ship missile.

According to our preliminary information, the flagship of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, the Moskva cruiser, was indeed attacked by the Neptune anti-ship missiles from the coastline between Odessa and Nikolaev. Also, the forces of the ship were diverted to counter the Bayraktar TB-2 UAV. The blow fell on the port side, as a result of which the ship took a strong roll. After the threat of detonation of ammunition, the crew of about 500 people was evacuated. The buoyancy of the cruiser was complicated by sea weather conditions. As a result of all the combined factors, according to preliminary information, and unfortunately, the cruiser joined the Roskomos submarine satellite constellation.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 14 2022 0:39 utc | 215

So, if the Russian flagship is sunk by a British supplied anti ship missile- when do the Brits become party to the conflict?? Or do they continue to supply high tech weapons, repercussion free??

Posted by: AParadiseLost | Apr 14 2022 0:43 utc | 216

@ RSH # 212 who quoted

"
As a result of all the combined factors, according to preliminary information, and unfortunately, the cruiser joined the Roskomos submarine satellite constellation.
"

That means it sunk, correct?

Quite the technical jargon...grin Glad to read that no loss of life.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 14 2022 0:44 utc | 217

Based on articles I'm seeing now, the plan is apparently to try to get as many anti-ship missiles into Ukraine as soon as possible and use them to either wipe out the Russian fleet in the Black Sea or Azov Sea or alternatively to push them back out of range so they cannot support the SMO, as well helping to prevent any amphibious landing at Odessa in the future. The latter shouldn't matter much as there's nothing stopping Russia from taking Odessa by land.

The snail in this plan is the fact that all these missiles systems are reasonably large and hard to smuggle in without being detected. Not impossible, but difficult. As the Forbes article I referenced above says, there is at least four trucks involved in the Neptune system, and presumably most of the other systems the West might send are also so encumbered.

So I don't think the plan will work. But it only takes a couple of these things to drop a ship, as appears to have been demonstrated today. This could get real expensive for Russia.

Also, I have to say that if Russian intelligence didn't know about these Neptune missiles in Odessa or didn't order them taken out early on, someone's going to get fired in the Ministry of Defense. This is a serious screwup.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 14 2022 0:48 utc | 218

More important than whether Brits supplied the missile that hit the Moskva is whether Brits were involved in the firing (as I suspect they were).

Posted by: Lysias | Apr 14 2022 0:50 utc | 219

RSH@212 So if that last paragraph is correct some serious planning occurred to bring it off. Distract ship defenses with a drone to hide missle approach. Wonder how much outside help was involved. I suspect this is a one off event in that case. Perhaps the operational Neptune battery was not identified either. Gloves off on costal defenses now I would guess.

Posted by: the pessimist | Apr 14 2022 0:50 utc | 220

RT on the ship.

https://www.rt.com/russia/553838-russia-cruiser-blast-black-sea/

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2022 0:55 utc | 221

When the Israelis destroyed the Egyptian air force on the ground in the 1967 war, the Egyptians claimed Americans were flying some of the Israeli planes. Americans like me were persuaded by U.S. media that the charge was just screwy. Only years later did the evidence appear that the charge was correct.

Posted by: Lysias | Apr 14 2022 0:58 utc | 222

Posted by: the pessimist | Apr 14 2022 0:50 utc | 217
"Gloves off on costal defenses now I would guess."

Yes, the Russians need to clean house in the south. Move Odessa and Nikolaev and points between up in the targeting list. Anything that looks like an army colored truck, blow it to hell. This what you get when you limit your objectives in "phase one". The Russians had to know about the Neptune development and should have prioritized taking them out. Probably someone assessed that they weren't deployed - wrong!

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 14 2022 1:06 utc | 223

Because wiping out the small Russian black sea fleet will secure the victory of...wait a minute! What a load of bollocks! Ukistan is losing massively on the ground...the only theatre that matters. Being distracted by propaganda is idiotic.

Posted by: Nook | Apr 14 2022 1:07 utc | 224

@Richard Steven Hack #208:

So how did I join it? Because I am joined to it. I'm looking at it. It says "you have joined this channel." So how can it be a private channel?

In Telegram’s terminology, a private channel is a channel that is not shown to everybody, e.g., in search suggestions, etc. One has to know its code to join it. The requirements for joining can be set by the administrator. In the case of Pepe’s channel, he allowed everyone to join automatically. So everyone who knows the code can join. And since the code is published on the web, everyone knows it, so everyone can join. So it’s not that different from a public channel. What’s the difference then? The difference is that a public channel has a nice name and has a web page showing all messages by the channel’s author, i.e., one doesn’t need a Telegram channel to view them. That’s why I’ve asked people to tell Pepe to make a public channel (perhaps, it’s possible to convert a private channel into a public channel)—there are many people who don’t want to install Telegram, but want to read his messages.

Posted by: S | Apr 14 2022 1:08 utc | 225

Posted by: AParadiseLost | Apr 14 2022 0:43 utc | 213

It's not UK's "Harpoon", this is Soviet designed and improved by the ukies Neptune:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neptune_(cruise_missile)

On April 13 2022, during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Russian cruiser Moskva was claimed to be hit by two Neptune missiles, resulting in an ammunition explosion.[10][11][12]

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 1:10 utc | 226

To be fair, maybe the Ukrainians are lying about the Neptune - wouldn't be the first time! - and the Russians are correct about it being a fire.

But frankly, I'm not sure I buy the Russian position. And if it's not true, the truth will come out, so it's a bad move to say it if it's not true. They're not going to keep 500 sailors quiet forever. The Russians are going to have to address the presence or absence of a Neptune battery in Odessa, at the very least.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 14 2022 1:10 utc | 227

Posted by: Nook | Apr 14 2022 1:07 utc | 221

I agree. It's not likely to work. But it can become a problem for the Fleet unless it's dealt with preemptively. Anti-ship missiles are no joke. Ships are expensive.

Posted by: S | Apr 14 2022 1:08 utc | 222

OK, gotcha. That explains it.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 14 2022 1:13 utc | 228

Richard Steven Hack | Apr 14 2022 0:48 utc | 215

So Ukraine lights up a radar then sends missiles with active radar homing? Booster then tubojet so I take it they are subsonic sending out plenty of warning. I guess more will come out on what happened in the future.
Anton Gerashchenko was the one that posted a photo of a BUK missile launch a few hours after MH17 was shot down.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2022 1:13 utc | 229

Posted by: Nook | Apr 14 2022 1:07 utc | 221

The other thing is the range of Neptune missile is officially something like 100 km, while the Russians can just do the Kalibr from 1000km range which means they can move the ships further outside of Neptune's range and still reach their targets.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 1:14 utc | 230

RHS@220

We will see how Russian MoD adjusts. This shows clearly the effects of outside help, particularly, I would think, the US satintel being provided as likely they can see the exact position of every ship and provide real time firing coordinates.

I expect the Russian threat to attack weapons shipments coming from neighbors to be operationalized directly - interdict before deployment.

Posted by: the pessimist | Apr 14 2022 1:17 utc | 231

@Richard Steven Hack (#125 and 23 other posts on the previous page)

I tell you no lies -- it's a relief that none of your 24 posts (24%) are copy-pastes of Telegram channels anymore. ;-)

Posted by: bjd | Apr 14 2022 1:17 utc | 232

Oops, "the system has a maximum range of about 300 kilometres", so it's a bit more biting.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 1:18 utc | 233

So is the United States officially at war with Russia or not? I want to make sure I am not committing treason, by writing posts questioning the mainstream media narrative on Russia. To be honest I feel like a thought criminal simply reading blogs and posts that question the mainstream narrative.

Posted by: Quiet Rebel | Apr 14 2022 1:20 utc | 234

ok Ivan, spout your ridicules theories, your dick must be the size of a peanut like putin

Posted by: real | Apr 14 2022 1:20 utc | 235

Re: ship

Looks like we will have to wait a few hours (tmro morning in my time zone) to get a more comprehensive statement.

Whatever it was, the result was serious enough to evacuate much/all of the crew (unclear, somewhat conflicting reporting of the extremely terse RF MoD statement by different press outlets), may or may not be the end of the ship. The fine folks updating the wikipedia based on this sketchy info do not make a reliable source.

Posted by: ptb | Apr 14 2022 1:21 utc | 236

Posted by: the pessimist | Apr 14 2022 1:17 utc | 228

Why not go for the satelites themselves? NATO can still do jackrabbit if it's not a territory Russia is attacking? Claim that the missiles were fired with US sat-control and go for the jugular. I'd say this is a good time to test the surface to satelite rockets.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 1:21 utc | 237

Here is the problem. The ukies have had "Neptune" missiles (the Russian kh 35) all along. But suddenly 6 or 7 weeks after the smo begins... they get a hit. Not very convincing. It is like the attacks on Russian civilian infrastructure in Belgorod...pure misdirection from the he eminent ukie defeat.

Posted by: Nook | Apr 14 2022 1:23 utc | 238

The US has been studying the Russian BSF and Crimean costal defenses rather intensively over the past 8 years. The Brits too for that matter. Now they get to play with other peoples soldiers.

Posted by: the pessimist | Apr 14 2022 1:24 utc | 239

Posted by: ptb | Apr 14 2022 1:21 utc | 233

Absolutely, I was surprised to see, not, that the execrable w-pedia is already mentioning albeit conditionally, the hit on "Moscow" by 2?!? Neptune missiles (how would they know and confirm except just accepting w/e MI6 propaganda is shoveled their way).

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 1:25 utc | 240

@226 Peter AU1

They're not that dumb. Send missile on inertial or satellite guidance to cover most of the distance, get w/in 20 miles of target, then turn on the radar at the last minute, and/or have a drone (unmanned thing shaped like a piece of floating poo etc) to relay the terminal guidance.

Posted by: ptb | Apr 14 2022 1:26 utc | 241

@226
... or satellite downlink the whole way

Posted by: ptb | Apr 14 2022 1:28 utc | 242

Another fact which adds to the faking of "Bucha Massacre" is that known faker of the Georgian 2008 war on events in Gori was the first to take photographs....

The man, from Reuters, Gleb Garanich....

https://twitter.com/Amor_y_Rabia/status/1513897014853095435?cxt=HHwWlsC-zYzUuIIqAAAA

Posted by: Givi | Apr 14 2022 1:31 utc | 243

Hey real! Is your dick the size of bidens ars hole? We all know.

Posted by: Nook | Apr 14 2022 1:32 utc | 244

Boo@234

I have been wondering that myself. It would be a serious escalation, but providing the satellite data to a belligerent comes pretty close to being party to the conflict. In this case likely there are some dead sailors. An anti-sat strike is less escalatory than striking outside Ukraine's borders I would think, but not by much...

Posted by: the pessimist | Apr 14 2022 1:32 utc | 245

The loss of the Moskva may lead to a serious escalation. Some possibilities are taking out the electric power distribution connections (not the power plants) in major cities or shooting down some US reconnaissance assets (e.g., drones outside the Ukrainian border).Another option would be strikes on equipment delivery sites in Poland. This war is getting very dangerous, and it is a grave mistake for the U.S. to assume that the Russians will accept defeat.

Posted by: HH | Apr 14 2022 1:34 utc | 246

Wikipedia is trash. It is western imperial propaganda... dismiss it before reading.

Posted by: Nook | Apr 14 2022 1:35 utc | 247

So is the United States officially at war with Russia or not? I want to make sure I am not committing treason, by writing posts questioning the mainstream media narrative on Russia. To be honest I feel like a thought criminal simply reading blogs and posts that question the mainstream narrative.

Posted by: Quiet Rebel | Apr 14 2022 1:20 utc | 231


The last time the USA was officially at war with anyone was 1945. All of the "police actions" since then have been in flagrant violation of the Constitution, but the only entity with standing to challenge them before the Supreme Court is the same Congress that eagerly funds those police actions. The same goes for the AUMFs -- egregiously unconstitutional, but again, passed and funded by Congress.

Posted by: malenkov | Apr 14 2022 1:36 utc | 248

ptb | Apr 14 2022 1:28 utc | 239

US did publicly state they would be giving Ukraine real time info. I think they were also given access to some European sats.

Nook also has an interesting point - why now 6-7 weeks into the fight rather than earlier?

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2022 1:40 utc | 249

Regarding the missile strike on the Russian ship, I was watching the Atlantic council 2 weeks ago and the Ukrainian representative to the discussion announced that Ukraine had already received the Anti-Ship missiles delivery from Britain. I assumed at that time they meant a Ukrainian military officer had officially "received the shipment" and the missiles hadn't yet been delivered into Ukraine itself. Now, it looks like either the missiles had in fact been delivered into Ukraine - OR - the US itself fired the missiles and Ukraine is taking the credit/blame - either way I expect the Russians to dish out some major, major pain on Ukraine in the next 12 hours.

Posted by: Kadath | Apr 14 2022 1:43 utc | 250

"Amid Russia-Ukraine crisis, India looks to rev up grain export"
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/amid-russia-ukraine-crisis-india-looks-to-rev-up-grain-export/article65318034.ece

Posted by: Antonym | Apr 14 2022 1:44 utc | 251

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2022 1:40 utc | 246

Russians got all noble and sloppy? But, seriously, an important ship such as "Moscow" can't be defeated by a combo of bayractar drone and few missiles; the ship is also not alone and protected by other ships with more defensive roles as well. Also, no independent confirmation like photos of fire in the sky or some such; so far all photos published in the channels are fake. Just doesn't pass the smell test.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 1:46 utc | 252

Posted by: Nook | Apr 14 2022 1:23 utc | 235
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2022 1:40 utc | 246

If the Forbes article is correct, they are not deployed yet, were scheduled to be deployed this year and only maybe six then. So the suggestion was that they only have one launcher with nominally four missiles and would have to essentially cobble the system together out of sight of the Russians for this hit. Seems plausible, but who knows? My question remains: if they existed and the Russians knew it, why weren't they taken out early?

Posted by: ptb | Apr 14 2022 1:26 utc | 238
"and/or have a drone (unmanned thing shaped like a piece of floating poo etc) to relay the terminal guidance."

According to the Telegram post I referenced above, apparently a Turkish drone was involved, supposedly to divert the ship's defenders before the missile hit. Seems plausible, but who knows?

It's clear the Russians need to issue a more comprehensive explanation than just a "fire and ammo exploded". They need to address whether they knew about the Neptunes because it's public knowledge they existed.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 14 2022 1:50 utc | 253

Posted by: Kadath | Apr 14 2022 1:43 utc | 247

It just can't be the Harpoons that were promised by both UK and Canada. Who is going to train the ukies in 2 weeks? And even assuming that the've been trained before, the russians would have had info about the harpoons. It's hard to hide the system during travel. Neptunes are local, could be hidden and moved in the last moment.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 1:50 utc | 254

One take to "Moskva"-story

"it was clearly not possible to knock out our cruiser with a Ukrainian “pukalka” like the Neptune missile, this is nonsense"
"Boris Johnson himself, who arrived in Kyiv by train, could deliver British missiles to Ukraine, and there could have been missiles on this train, for example, in disguised as passenger cars. "

Writer Oleksandr Tochka

https://tochka.press/2022/04/14/77357/

Posted by: ka | Apr 14 2022 1:53 utc | 255

Boo@249

That may be so, but if an accidental fire caused the loss of such an imporant ship that is equally bad. The US has suffered quite a few serious Naval accidents, and the Brits too, and the Russians I would guess. But when in the middle of a conflict it is partucularly unfortunate.

Posted by: the pessimist | Apr 14 2022 1:54 utc | 256

Posted by: ka | Apr 14 2022 1:53 utc | 252

Which, however, raises the question asked in earlier threads whether Boris Johnson ever really went to Kiev by train? I haven't bothered to concern myself with that question. Then there's the issue raised above whether the Ukies could have been trained on the new missiles - or did the Brit trainers fire them as a "demo"?

We just don't know enough. The MoD needs to release a more comprehensive report, which we'll probably see tomorrow.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 14 2022 1:55 utc | 257

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Apr 13 2022 20:15 utc | 117

I feel this may not be the correct understanding, NemesisCalling. I understand your fervor, but for Orthodoxy, though it has distinct forms in its different national origins but the same theological message, it is not as Roman Catholicism has been, a faith wedded to any one national cause. In a way, as with multipolarity for state issues, Russia conforms to the same multipolarity in culture and in the different faiths that inhabit it. It would not call itself a Christian nation unless it could also say that it is a nation of the multitude of different faiths that its citizens profess. Freedom of religion is as important for Russia as it is or was for the American founders.

Also, while Thomas Aquinas can perhaps be quoted accurately on the matter of the current military operation, he would not be considered a saint as far as Orthodoxy is concerned. That is a different matter, but do consider - not all Russian solders are Orthodox, and this is not a religious matter. Whatever faith the troops themselves embrace, and Orthodoxy is one of those, the cause is not a crusade, and Putin has never framed it as such. One reason for this separation, I think, is the historical memory of the overthrow of Byzantium by Catholic Crusaders. Russia would not wish to be cast in that mold.

I apologize if I have misunderstood what you are saying here. It is not a matter of replacing one Christian center with another, but rather embracing the spiritual values all faiths hold in common to uphold truths that are universal, in order that all strive towards a common humanity. If that was your goal in this post, I apologize for my clumsily mistaken understanding of it.

Posted by: juliania | Apr 14 2022 1:56 utc | 258

Am I banned? (I made two posts, one with hyperlinks and then one w/o because of the failure of the first: posts were about a French journalist that while supposedly in Ukraine it was clear to him that the US and UK are in charge of Ukraine's military operations)

Posted by: Seer | Apr 14 2022 1:56 utc | 259

@the pessimist #228:

This shows clearly the effects of outside help, particularly, I would think, the US satintel being provided as likely they can see the exact position of every ship and provide real time firing coordinates.

I agree, that’s the most likely way the U.S. did it. They have identified Moskva’s coordinates with a radar satellite, directed Ukrainians to send a Bayraktar TB2 drone to that location, forcing the ship to turn its radar on, then directed Ukrainians to fire radar-guided Neptuns.

I have to say I’m disappointed with our Navy so far. First they lost landing ship Saratov (3,400 tonnes standard displacement) in the port of Berdyansk, now they lose guided missile cruiser and Black Sea Fleet flagship Moskva (11,490 tonnes displacement). Our naval air defence training must be really poor. Hopefully, these events will finally break our Navy’s culture of complacency that many military bloggers have been writing about for years.

Posted by: S | Apr 14 2022 1:59 utc | 260

I see the Russians were caught off guard by the UK's Neptune anti-ship missiles. There's more bad news coming from the U.S. announced a little while ago, and I think with the sinking of the Moskva cruiser, staying on top, and I mean way on top as in geo-spatial surveillance or some kind of drone monitoring of the movement of shipments can't be stressed enough. Of course the Ukes were able to target the ship with immediate geo-spatial radar intel Americans are providing the Ukes. America is in this war up to the gills!

The U.S. is shortly sending heavy weaponry to Ukraine and John Kirby stated it should arrive in 4 to 5 days.

APP

Live TV
Biden unveils $800 million security package for Ukraine in call with Zelensky
By Kevin Liptak, CNN
Updated 3:34 PM EDT, Wed April 13, 2022

(CNN)President Joe Biden on Wednesday told Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky the US was sending his nation an additional $800 million worth of weapons, ammunition and other security assistance.

It comes as US officials warn of a potentially bloody new phase in the ongoing war, focused on the eastern regions of Ukraine as Russia withdraws its troops from the area around the capital Kyiv.

"The Ukrainian military has used the weapons we are providing to devastating effect. As Russia prepares to intensify its attack in the Donbas region, the United States will continue to provide Ukraine with the capabilities to defend itself," Biden said in a statement.

Biden detailed the new announcement in a midday telephone call with Zelensky that lasted for about an hour.

"Continued constant dialogue with @POTUS. Assessed Russian war crimes. Discussed additional package of defensive and possible macro-financial aid. Agreed to enhance sanctions," Zelensky wrote on Twitter.

The US is providing Ukraine with 11 Mi-17 helicopters, 300 Switchblade drones, 18 Howitzers and protective equipment to guard against chemical attacks in the latest batch of security assistance approved by the White House, the Pentagon announced. In addition, the new weapons package includes 200 M113 armored personnel carriers, 10 counter-artillery radars, 500 Javelin anti-tank missiles and 30,000 sets of body armor and helmets.

Pentagon press secretary John Kirby said the $800 million package was intended to "meet urgent Ukrainian needs for today's fight" as Russian forces shift the focus of their attack to eastern and southern Ukraine. He said the weapons would begin being sent to Ukraine "as soon as possible," noting that previous security assistance had been sent in as little as four-to-five days after security packages were approved.

I don't doubt for a minute that all this will be sent and will start arriving soon, as I didn't doubt Boris was serious about the anti-ship missiles and STARStreak systems.

After this incident the Russians better get serious about blowing things up the moment they arrive and be on the alert that the U.S. is watching from the skies!

Posted by: Circe | Apr 14 2022 2:00 utc | 261

OK, seeing as I'm not banned I'll try another approach...

From https://summit.news/2022/04/12/french-journalist-returns-from-ukraine-says-americans-are-in-charge-of-the-war/

"Malbrunot" is Georges Malbrunot, Le Figaro senior international correspondent.

“And who is in charge? It’s the Americans, I saw it with my own eyes,” said Malbrunot, adding, “I thought I was with the international brigades, and I found myself facing the Pentagon.”

Posted by: Seer | Apr 14 2022 2:01 utc | 262

"Most Americans don’t even know there is a war on. Those who do are pretty much all as dumb as the commenters in link. Good propaganda or fancy propaganda or coherent propaganda is not required." "They hate Russia and always have. So did their parents."

"Markos Moulitsas who wrote the article, or had it written, is an aristocrat from El Salvador. His family was deeply involved in the assassination of Archbishop Romero. He is what passes for Left in US."

OH @ 112 said the above. It rings true, but most, not all Americans feel that way. I sure as hell don't.

Markos runs a blog called "daily kos,", and, it is considered left, but, not really. It's part of the "fake left". Who's job it is to provide the impression of being left, but, in reality is just part of the $ party, including the Republicans' & Democrats', and misdirection is their game.
Virtually all politicians in the U$ work for the wealthy. We're a lost nation, it's up to Russia and China to change global direction.

I hope they're up to it...

Posted by: vetinLA | Apr 14 2022 2:05 utc | 263

There is another point made by major & general, about an hour or so after the "hits", https://t.me/mig41/16420:


As for the cruiser "Moscow", we can say only one thing with absolute certainty: even if the Ukrainian side really tried to hit it with anti-ship missiles, they cannot know the result so quickly.

They could have lied more plausibly, but we won't tell them.

Similarly, rybar is mocking the ukies for claiming that the ship has been hit by neptunes.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 2:10 utc | 264

S@257

When was the last conflict involving Naval assets between near peers? (Thinking the combo of US reconnaissance assets with what hardware the UAF can muster makes a reasonably effective fighting combination) To my mind this is a new kind of conflict and no one had experience with it until Feb 24.

When was the last time the Russian Navy was in a sustained combat situation? Firing standoff weapons from out of range of your opponent doesn't count.

Posted by: the pessimist | Apr 14 2022 2:11 utc | 265

Posted by: S | Apr 14 2022 1:59 utc | 257

This idea of the ship radar not being able to "take care" of more than 1 object at a time and turning its attention to a single bayraktar is a bit preposterous. I've seen few opinions like that being shot down in the channels chats.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 2:15 utc | 266

The "heavy" weaponry the us is sending sounds like a joke. And has this cruiser actually been sunk or just damaged. Reign that hysteria on just a little bit.

Posted by: Nook | Apr 14 2022 2:15 utc | 267

Some commenters seem confused on covid.. maybe because of that there's reluctance to discuss. My take on covid, 62 years in the Optimum Health Industry.

There's NO virus.. just a lab made spike protein.

The Identity of the Virus: Health/ Science Institutions Worldwide “Have No Record” of SARS-COV-2 Isolation/Purification. Dr. Christine Massey, Dec. 2021.

US lawyer Dr Francis Boyle, who has drafted Bio-Warfare Regs. has evidence that Harvard U Chem. Dept. Dr. Charles Lieber & Oz. Health Dept aided Wuhan Labs in the project to create the bio-weapon spike protein, in which, cancer, hap. and HIV codes are embedded.

A fake test was used to create a Scare-scam-demic.

Dr. Kary Mullis, inventor of the PCR test stated that his test only idents strands of DNA from Hep. and various Flus, and that the test was NEVER intended to be used as a diagnostic tool.

US Dr. Elisabeth Eads studies noted that the PCR test gives 97% false positives. The quick antigen test gives a 40% false negative! (Danish Manufacturer). 3 rapid test kits have Sodium azide, a chemical is found in herbicides and, pest control agents,

NOTE!! The WHO on Jan. 20, 2021 in their Directive #202005 stated that the PCR test is of NO VALUE.. this superseding their Jan.20.2020 advice to do PCR test.

FDA, CDC halt PCR “test”emergency use authorization on December 31, 2021 after admitting it cannot distinguish between COVID and flu.

Once panic was created.., the scared populace could be mass injected with graphene, AIDS, hep, cancer, parasites and nanobots.. in un-labelled injections.

3.9.22. The Pfizer injections have 1291 different side effects, according to data released by FDA under a Court Order. FDA had demanded no data release for 75 years!

Video: Graphene Oxide: A Toxic Substance in the Vial of the COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine? By Ricardo Delgado and Prof Michel Chossudovsky Global Research, January 19, 2022.

Dr. Vladimir Zelenko. The mRNA injections HAVE AIDS!

Swedish study 2.28.22 demonstrated and confirmed that the mRNA in the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid injections infiltrate cells and transcribes its message onto human DNA within 6 hours, altering our own DNA

Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi, Autopsies Prove Vax BioWeapon Caused Autoimmune Attacks And Death. (Based on 70 autopsies done by Germany's top pathologist, Prof. Dr. Arne Burkhardt).

Austrian graphene Research Scientist/Med. Dr. Andreas Noack was MURDERED after he released his evidence of graphene in the 4 mRNA injections, and describing it as ''razor blades in the blood that will kill all who get it''.

Prof Igor Chudov Pfizer vaccine, taken once, permanently changes the DNA of affected cells…DNA transcribed from Pfizer mRNA Vaccine contains mutant gp130 Cancer Cells. 28,2,22

Journal of Hepatology. Immune-mediated hepatitis with the Moderna vaccine.. confirmed.

Brghteon. Dr. Jane Ruby Show. Incredible evidence of cancer diagnoses in the jabbed, exploding cancers in the boosted. 2.15.22.

JAs of December 3, 2021, the U.S. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) has logged 19,886 COVID jab related deaths.

Health Impact News. 2.6.22. 38,983 Deaths and 3,530,362 Injuries Following COVID Shots in European Database as Mass Funeral for Children who Died After Pfizer Vaccine Held in Switzerland.

The tide turns..

Brighteon. Dr. Reiner Füllmich: Grand Jury Case Overview and List of Expert Witnesses - (Feb 5, 2022). (UK Vaccine Crime Investigation. Metropolitan Police Crime Number: 6029679/21. International Criminal Court (The Hague) case number: OTP‐CR‐473/21).

Posted by: Thomas Turk | Apr 14 2022 2:16 utc | 268

India is inching closer towards ending up on the wrong side of History. Not okay. India has been paying lip service to Russia, and then turns around and abstains from the vote on the UN resolution condemning Russia for its military operation in Ukraine, and also abstained from the vote to unseat Russia from the UN Human Rights Council. That's not all, just today India did this:

infosys exits Russia

Ironically, Infosys generates over 60% of its revenue from the U.S. market.

infosys-revenue-by-region

Yes, India has held back in so many words on accusing Russia of war crimes, but then it should have voted no on ousting Russia from the Human Rights Council. India needs to act on its words.

Right now, with this latest news, India is looking more like the kind of friend Russia has in Israel. Some divesting friend India is, cashing in on stock uptick at Russia's expense. All those jobs for Russians evaporating...thank you India, not.

What I see is gutless, self-serving duplicity, and words, words, and only words.

Craven empty-talk and no spine. Invest something with your sweet talk, damn you!

Posted by: Circe | Apr 14 2022 2:17 utc | 269

Boo@261

So satellite assets cannot confirm a hit if they are watching for it?

Posted by: the pessimist | Apr 14 2022 2:17 utc | 270

On that ship attack - it will be interesting what tomorrow reveals abut the Russian ship event. Yes, it could have been a missile attack from near Odessa, but it could also have been an internal accident causing the explosion and then the Ukrainians claiming credit for it. The Russian MOD reported that ammunition exploded, and this surely could have been from a missile strike but it could also have been because of a ship fire having nothing to do with missiles. The Russian ship was built in 1983, meaning it is 30 years old, and that is old for a ship, lots of old electrical conduit and corroded pathways and systems. I have worked on commercial ships and the opportunities for catastrophe are legion, especially with fire. So I think the jury is out about this. This may be a dramatic Ukrainian attack that has sunk the Russian flagship, in which case the others need to worry as well, but it could just as well be that the ship struck a floating mine (remember the news about mines near Odessa?) and this explosion set off the ammo....

Posted by: Boomheist | Apr 14 2022 2:18 utc | 271

Posted by: Nook | Apr 14 2022 2:15 utc | 264

Officially, just damaged. According to Boris Rozhin, or rather his channel moderator working tonite, the last info is that "Moscow" did sink, look on this page post @201. Info tomorrow for sure.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 2:26 utc | 272

Boomheist@268

RT says ship launched in 1979. If an accident then this is also problematic. And yes, serious accidents are not uncommon.

Hopefully the post-mortem will be enlightening.

Posted by: the pessimist | Apr 14 2022 2:27 utc | 273

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 13 2022 20:39 utc | 127

Well said! Indeed, quite lovely that you, a communist, feel Russia's historical memory, which is hard to understand to others whose experience of Christianity has been as it came through western transformations. That's why I've made the posts I have made to suggest a different historical path for the faith, as Russian Christians experience it. Like my own little church here in New Mexico, they remained on the ancient calendar liturgically while progressing to the more accurate Gregorian calendar in secular matters. Walking and chewing gum at the same time, if you like!

For Russians it is a very deep faith because there are many recent martyrs, but that sorrow is not an aggressive one - it is simply sad and very beautiful. For instance, on Good Friday afternoon,(a week from next Friday) the music is soaringly expressive, and churches are often full of flowers. The main hymn is "The Noble Joseph" which slowly narrates how the body of Christ is gently taken down from the Cross to be placed in a new tomb donated by Joseph of Arimathea - he a rich man who has somehow entered the eye of the needle ...

Posted by: juliania | Apr 14 2022 2:27 utc | 274

"During a war a 'civilian' with a government issued gun shooting at enemy soldiers is a combatant, not a civilian."

No. No. No.

A civilian, armed, participating in combat, but without any distinguishing isignia and not a member of an organised force subject to military discipline that enforces the laws of war is an illegal combatant.
If an illegal combatant kills, he is guilty of murder.
The Ukraine law authorising civilians to attacks enemy soldiers is it self a violation of the laws of war and is invalid.

Posted by: ltexpat | Apr 14 2022 2:30 utc | 275

Lmao! US getting taste of its own medicine..

India Also Has Concerns About Human Rights in US: India's External affairs minister S. Jaishankar

Posted by: AB17 | Apr 14 2022 2:35 utc | 276

S | Apr 14 2022 1:59 utc | 257

There is a lot more to radar than turning a single antenna to look at a single target.
An aircraft can take on multiple targets at one time (as in missile guidance) while maintaining surveillance. I think there is a bit more to it than Ukraine hitting a ship like that with more or less upgraded soviet missiles. They would need the high supersonic and maneuvering terminal approach at least.
At the moment Russian mod saying a fire set off some of the deck mounted missile warheads. Perhaps that's all it is who knows.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2022 2:37 utc | 277

Posted by: the pessimist | Apr 14 2022 2:17 utc | 267

"So satellite assets cannot confirm a hit if they are watching for it?" I don't know, not a mil. specialist. It should be possible, I guess, but I dont think this is the point of the post I linked by major & general above.

Meanwhile, I found this interesting discussion about the capabilities of the UK Harpoon system where the author actually claims that it's kinda useless :) Aricle is 3-4 days old:

https://www.navylookout.com/can-the-uk-supply-anti-ship-missiles-to-ukraine/

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 2:39 utc | 278

@Barovsky 127,

I get it, man. And the Russians are right. And I have some idea beyond reading numbers in history books. I studied at the technical university in Piter (99). Got there and the only Russian I knew was yes, no, grandma and my name (cause I have one of those). I took to long walks. One day I saw some buildings across the street from a kiosk market, flag at half mast and I wondered what in the world I had missed in the two weeks I’d been in Russia trying to decipher hand written Cyrillic so I could eat. Then I saw the marble buildings, which were suspiciously well kept for Russia in 1999.

As I turned between them I was overwhelmed. I’d read “The 900 Days” shortly before going. I knew where I was. The eternal flame burned in front of me, then a view down the steps to lines of lovingly tended flower beds. Classical music played from the trees and old folks walked among the mounds laying a red carnation on each stone. Mother Russia stood above it all at the far end, her arms outstretched in defiant mourning. I walked among those mounds for hours, the headstones etched only with a year. And the stories from history came to life. I spent a lot of time at Piskariovskoye.

I listened to one of my floor ladies tell a few of us about her childhood during the siege. It was incredibly painful to her all those years later, but perhaps she struggled through her story because we cared enough to listen. You couldn’t help but notice how few old men walked the streets. I visited a Russian friend who lived in Peterhof where war ruins remain and you think on the bus ride just how close the fascists were. I’ve been to the victory day celebrations on the Nevsky. I’m not bragging. I don’t know the real emotions Russians feel on these issues. I have sympathy but can’t claim real empathy.

I also have a deep and growing anger that now it is my nation that wants to repeat all that. My nation that’s willing to starve Russians with sanctions. My nation arming the fascists and cheering them on. “Mother Russia” isn’t a real thing in the Russian language anymore, but Russia still invokes her for the deepest emotions. Lately I’ve gotten the feeling that she’s been awakened. I’ve even tried to warn other Americans that they don’t want to see this side of Russia in anger towards them. I guess we’re going to have to learn the hard way.

Posted by: Lex | Apr 14 2022 2:39 utc | 279

I do notice that typical overestimation of military technology and an overall technological illiteracy amongst the public. Very often they believe things possible which are simply not. Oh well. And yes...the harpoon is ancient and not exactly competitive.

Posted by: Nook | Apr 14 2022 2:44 utc | 280

@Boo #263:

This idea of the ship radar not being able to "take care" of more than 1 object at a time and turning its attention to a single bayraktar is a bit preposterous.

I didn’t say there was a problem with the radar itself. I said there could have been a problem with crew training.

Posted by: S | Apr 14 2022 2:46 utc | 281

Hmm, Forbes has the ultimate article on the history and current status of Moskva and how to sink it, and it's from 20th of Jan. of this year:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/01/20/the-russian-cruiser-moskva-dominates-the-black-sea/?sh=7631e1375e57

Choice extracts:


Moskva’s value to a Ukraine operation could make her a top target of Ukraine’s missileers. Assuming the Ukrainians can preserve their anti-ship missiles through Russian bombardment and pinpoint Moskva’s location using radars or drones, they might get to take a few shots at the cruiser.

Aging and reportedly vulnerable to fire, Moskva in 2016 sailed back to Sevastopol in Crimea for a three-year overhaul. She emerged with P-1000 anti-ship missiles in place of her older P-500s. The overhaul extends her service life by a decade or so.

Moskva is not a Kalibr-carrier. But she can protect the Kalibr-carriers—and other ships—as she sweeps the surrounding sea and air of enemy ships and planes. Aside from Moskva, the Black Sea Fleet operates 10 frigates and corvettes, six diesel-electric submarines and 10 or 11 amphibious ships and boats.

The only Ukrainian forces that might have any realistic shot at Moskva are the new Neptune anti-ship missile batteries. The stealthy, radar-guided Neptune can strike ships as far away as 175 miles. Kiev has bought Turkish-made TB-2 drones and American-made radars that can spot targets for the Neptunes.

It’s not clear how many Neptunes it might take to punch through Moskva’s defenses. Nor is it clear how many Neptunes the Ukrainians possess.

Prescient. Also, it appears, that the Russian Navy does not read Forbes. Pity!

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 2:48 utc | 282

re: ship

no point getting too excited before more info

If anything, the result of more capable anti-ship weapons on the Ukraine side, may be higher likelyhood of RF trying to 'neutralize' Odessa/Nikolaev coastline. Including possibly trying to conquer it, which raises many problems. But with the Odessa coast 280-300 km from Sevastopol, considering ranges of either modern anti-ship weapons or creative use of old ones, it would become an ongoing concern.

Posted by: ptb | Apr 14 2022 2:49 utc | 283

@255 juliania

I don't think you misunderstood so much as I think we are in disagreement.

It is true that tolerance in the nation of Russia will be maintained, but this does not mean that Putin isn't a servant of God in his quest to beat back the hounds of hell in the west.

The result of this smackdown will shake the concealing cloak off the beast and will force it out into the open. Putin will in the end have begun something so momentous for Christianity, that Russia under his hand will have given back to it its true meaning as liberating force of the world.

The fact that Putin is not explicit in this aim belies yet again his amazing tact when dealing with the Beast which has used the liberal world order to furnish its end. Putler, the new Hitler, the face for everyone to spit at: what could be less Christian than that?

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Apr 14 2022 2:58 utc | 284

Boo | Apr 14 2022 2:48 utc | 279

reading that, US obviously had a plan the hit the main black sea ship. Radar guided? I think that is bullshit. Radar homing...?

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2022 2:59 utc | 285

Addendum

What could be MORE Christian than that?

Oops...lol

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Apr 14 2022 2:59 utc | 286

PS - re: ship

second photo circulating is also not authentic.... https://t.me/boris_rozhin/42200

Posted by: ptb | Apr 14 2022 3:06 utc | 287

Commenter at Saker says NATO personnel were in Odessa with gear to target the Rusdian fleet as per Hal Turner Radio broadcast yesterday.

US/NATO in eyeball deep in this conflict.

Posted by: the pessimist | Apr 14 2022 3:07 utc | 288

Before concluding on Moskva, let's wait for MOD announcement on her location, cause of fire, and any casualty.

Expecting 404 telling any real fact, is like trying to find virgins in a whorehouse, or locating an honest Abe in DC.

Posted by: KitaySupporter | Apr 14 2022 3:09 utc | 289

Good interview with Andrei Martyanov

https://gunsandbutter.org/

Posted by: vetinLA | Apr 14 2022 3:11 utc | 290

@Peter AU1 #274:

There is a lot more to radar than turning a single antenna to look at a single target.
An aircraft can take on multiple targets at one time (as in missile guidance) while maintaining surveillance.

Again, I never said that Moskva’s radar was only capable of tracking a single target or anything like that. I said that the drone could have been used to force Moskva to turn its radar on, which could then be targeted by a radar homing missile.

Moskva had 64 S-300F launchers and 4 Osa-MA launchers⁠—enough to protect against a much larger attack⁠—so I surmise that it was lost due to insufficient training of the crew.

Posted by: S | Apr 14 2022 3:12 utc | 291

Or..it was just a fire and not a missile at all....

Posted by: Nook | Apr 14 2022 3:16 utc | 292

Martyanov on Moskva.

As being an ex-navy man his assessment and knowledge of weapons on ship is worth reading.

Forbes article above says Moskva was modernized for 3 years and was again taken into service in 2016.
Martyanov instead says "The ship is more than 40 years old, after all, and unlike sistership Marshal Ustinov didn't undergo modernization"

https://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/

Posted by: ka | Apr 14 2022 3:16 utc | 293

Because..shit happens. That is the only maxim that holds true in the real world. Technology is not magic and things don't always go the way you plan.

Posted by: Nook | Apr 14 2022 3:20 utc | 294

NemesisCalling | Apr 14 2022 2:58 utc | 281

I have seen Putin more as protecting the Russian culture, which of course the orthodox Church is a big part of but ot just the Russian cultures, all the cultures of the Russia federation. There are four official religions in the Russian federation.

US is is described as a melting pot. You ever seen cheap products made out of alloy that breaks easy? Toys and cheap gizmos are made out of the stuff. Its called pot metal. look it up. Its all the scraps of various metals thrown into a melting pot and cast into cheap parts. All the scum of Soviet Union, Europe and Asia have been thrown in the US pot over the last seventy years.
But back to my point, US is about the destruction of cultures and Putin is very much about saving or protecting cultures that I think is different to a religious calling.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2022 3:22 utc | 295

How Far Can The West Go Before Crossing The Red Line?

Posted by: Will | Apr 14 2022 3:23 utc | 296

Posted by: KitaySupporter | Apr 14 2022 3:09 utc | 286

It could be true that Moskva had just happen to have a fire and the ukies knew almost immediately given NATO satintel and claimed it as Neptune hit (or 2 as wikipedia cites something or other).

One thing is for sure, it's extremely unlikely that the Russians will admit that it was an ukie hit if this is what happened, because given what the americans military and even journalists knew before the war and what the Russians did not do to protect Moskva, it's very embarrasing for the Russian Navy.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 14 2022 3:24 utc | 297

@Nook #289:

Or..it was just a fire and not a missile at all....

“Just a fire” that led to a loss or even sinking of the Black Sea Fleet flagship? Sorry, I don’t believe that. By the way, the same thing was claimed initially about Saratov, that it was “just a fire”.

Posted by: S | Apr 14 2022 3:29 utc | 298

It is standard operating procedure for the United States to bomb civilian populations in cities. Typically the US press paints the opposing force as evil genocidal maniacs before the US and or it's allies kills 5 to 20 percent of the civilian population. I am surprised that people are not familiar with this procedure. The US portrays the Russians as war criminals because the west "will" bomb the civilian populations in Donbas the same way they bombed the civilian populations under Germany, North Korea, Japan, North Vietnam, Cambodia, Iran via poison gas through friend Saddam .... Afganistán ISIS, Libya, and next Donbas.

Posted by: ATM | Apr 14 2022 3:30 utc | 299

“Out of these troubled times,” he told a joint session of Congress in reference to a paradise just over the horizon, “a new world order can emerge…An era in which the nations of the world, east and west, north and south, can prosper and live in harmony.”

Sounds very enticing, doesn’t it? All it takes to enjoy world peace, it seems, is for nations to submit their liberty and sovereignty to a single ruler.

And further down in his speech, “Once again, Americans … serve together with Arabs, Europeans, Asians and Africans in defense of principle and the dream of a new world order.” I’m guessing that the lions also lay down with the lambs in this political paradise.

The critical part of Bush’s passage is his remark, “Out of these troubled times.” The key to creating the ‘new world order’ that these people so desperately crave is quite simply chaos. The warped dream of uniting all nations together under a single roof can only come about as the result of some cataclysmic event, a tragedy so great that countries will eagerly submit to hegemon. This is basic Hegelian dialectics, of course, where some dire crisis arises, the people react, and the all-powerful state enters the scene to provide a solution, which has a funny way of resulting in some fundamental loss of liberty.

More recently, U.S. President Joe Biden made mention of the notorious catchphrase, which, incidentally, could have been what prompted Lavrov to reiterate his condemnation of the ‘new world order’.

“Now is a time when things are shifting,” Biden said last month at a meeting of the Business Roundtable lobbying organization. “We’re going to — there’s going to be a new world order out there, and we’ve got to lead it.” So much for this being a group effort; Biden revealed what is taken for granted among the Washington elite: there will be a new world order and the United States will “lead it.”

https://www.strategic-culture.org/

Posted by: ld | Apr 14 2022 3:36 utc | 300

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