Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 21, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-52

Only news & views related to the Ukraine conflict ...

Posted by b on April 21, 2022 at 14:22 UTC | Permalink

Comments
next page »

The UN Security Council held an extraordinary event on April 6 under the rubric Arria Formula Meeting on Biological Security regarding the biological activities in countries including Ukraine. Predictably, the US and UK representatives didn’t show up at the event and the western media also blacked out the proceedings. But that does not detract from the profound significance of what transpired.

Indian Punchline

https://www.indianpunchline.com/migratory-birds-of-mass-destruction/

Posted by: ld | Apr 21 2022 14:26 utc | 1

So Putin has ordered a blockade of the Nazis in Avozstal over the orthodox weekend as called by b several days ago. Smart move, as they get increasingly desperate they will probably kill each other and save the Russian forces a job and Russian lives will be saved too. How anyone in the west does not see these Ukranian Nazis for what they are is beyond me.

Posted by: Phil Espin | Apr 21 2022 14:36 utc | 2

I posted the following near the end of the previous thread. I'm adding a further comment below:


Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 21 2022 8:14 utc | 310

https://tass.com/world/1440803

"Five permanent members of the UN Security Council (Russia, China, the UK, the US, France) may be the basis of guarantor states for Ukraine, with the issue being discussed at the Russian-Ukrainian talks, the head of the Russian Foreign Ministry's second CIS department Alexey Polishchuk said in an interview with TASS.
"Indeed, apart from the neutral, non-bloc and denuclearized status of Ukraine, which stipulates its demilitarization and denazification, the issues of providing it with security guarantees from a number of states are being considered at those talks," the diplomat said, adding that "it is suggested that the basis of the institute of guarantor states may consist of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council." "Other options are also under consideration, which is why the final list has not been defined yet," he noted."

Thank you, RSH, for posting this, even though I take it you are not in favor. My first read is that Tass has left out the "may" in its heading (so I left off the heading here). It is interesting to see the structure that is being considered for a future Ukraine, and Polishchuk places upfront as non-negotiable the stipulations that define Ukraine's final
status, as both Putin and Lavrov have continually defined them.

It is also to be noticed that the article concludes with a statement (my bold) to the effect that much is still to be determined.

Perhaps you could outline your dissatisfaction with this? (Mine was the misleading heading, which seemed to say the preliminary focus was determinative.)

Posted by: juliania | Apr 21 2022 14:10 utc | 389

My further comment: I can see a objection to the format suggested above in that matters unfavorable to Russia's intent are often discussed lopsidedly in the Security Council at this time of the leadership of Great Britain. Russia, it seems to me, will be conducting these negotiations 'once bitten twice shy' as the saying goes, or even 'twice or many times bitten...'

They will be negotiating from strength. They can afford to be hardnosed; the world is watching.

RSH is watching.

Posted by: juliania | Apr 21 2022 14:50 utc | 3

I have been watching Shaun Pinner's RT interview, here:


https://t.me/NewResistance/7710?single


He's obviously reading from a mental script: "I'm a medic, I never fought, I was captured while trying to help injured people, I never saw any nazis despite living next to Azov for 4 years." A much more polished tale than Aslin's bumbling. No way is this character who he pretends to be. Almost certainly a high level British army or MI6 man.

This same Pinner, in January:

"‘I fear for my life. The Russians will treat us differently if we are captured because we are British. This is always on my mind – that I will be captured."

http://celex.s205.xrea.com/ex-squaddies-in-trenches-with-ukraine-reveal-russian-invasion-threat/

Now he pretends that he only just realised he won't be treated like a Ukrainian regular PoW.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Apr 21 2022 14:51 utc | 4

NEW VIDEO:

Captured Mercenary in Mariupol turns on Zelensky, blames him for genocide of the Ukrainian people.

VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYqNlNlJ35A

Posted by: Dean Oneil | Apr 21 2022 14:53 utc | 5

Left pff the 'n' - "an objection", sorry.

Posted by: juliania | Apr 21 2022 14:57 utc | 6

Why the hell has my response at Number 3 about Shaun Pinner's interview been removed?

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Apr 21 2022 14:57 utc | 7

Posted by: Phil Espin | Apr 21 2022 14:36 utc | 2


So Putin has ordered a blockade of the Nazis in Avozstal over the orthodox weekend as called by b several days ago.

Well, Zelenzky said he wanted to turn Ukraine into "Great Israel", now he has his own Gaza strip, complete with underground tunnels and bunkers ...

(by the time this is over he'll be hung by his own metaphors)

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 21 2022 14:59 utc | 8

Why the hell has my response at Number 3 about Shaun Pinner's interview been removed?

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Apr 21 2022 14:57 utc | 6


It's on the "Some of the weapons" thread, isn't it?

Posted by: malenkov | Apr 21 2022 14:59 utc | 9

(by the time this is over he'll be hung by his own metaphors)

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 21 2022 14:59 utc | 7


Hanged, not hung. I'm not interested in his "piano playing."

Posted by: malenkov | Apr 21 2022 15:00 utc | 10

EuroUkrainian Alexander Goncharenko (of Odessa Massacre perpetrators, http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Odessa_Trade_Union_massacre ) boosts people morale: "Ukrainian Army is fighting like lions in Amazonia forrests!"

https://t.me/savanichi/32573

Yeah, new norm. Lions is forrests. Of Amazonia, no less.

Posted by: Arioch | Apr 21 2022 15:05 utc | 11

Posted by: malenkov | Apr 21 2022 15:00 utc | 9


Hanged, not hung. I'm not interested in his "piano playing."

No. I insist he be hung and not hanged. Death is too good for him.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 21 2022 15:05 utc | 12

Posted by: Phil Espin | Apr 21 2022 14:36 utc | 2

I don't believe that's a smart move without knowing what's inside the complex and whether there's escape tunnels down there.

I don't believe in giving them mercy would change their behavior and frankly speaking they don't deserve it. If they can smoke it down with gas or chemical weapons or even flood them with water they should. The faster they were resolved the better.

Russia need to control and close the borders of Ukraine fast. Capturing Odessa would limit the chances of another Moskva event from happening.

Posted by: Lucci | Apr 21 2022 15:06 utc | 13

Posted by: Phil Espin | Apr 21 2022 14:36 utc | 2
Posted by: Lucci | Apr 21 2022 15:06 utc | 12

Perhaps what's important to Putin is not what's inside the Azovstal bunker but whats *outside* it.

I'm beginning to suspect that he may be thinking of using it as bait, perhaps he wants to see further desperate attempts to rescue whatever/whoever is trapped there as happened in the beginning ?

It could be that Azovstal is being prepared as the site of a trap for any forceful attempt by NATO and the Zelensky regime ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 21 2022 15:21 utc | 14

https://t.me/msgazdiev/902 - photo, an old lady in her window at Mariupol

https://t.me/msgazdiev/911 - video. An oldman from Mariupol, managed to escape from Ukrainians...

https://t.me/msgazdiev/893 - Ukrainian anti-personnal mines captured in Mariupol (Ilyuch factory, whose garrison surrendered week ago). Ukraine reportedly claimed they destroyed all their anti-personnel mines, but video shows Claymore-shaped mines (maybe their Soviet MON-60 clone).

https://t.me/msgazdiev/903 - Ukrainians even painted their serice dog in blue. It did not help the dog much - soon it was just abandoned into the street war chaos. The lucky doggo latched onto the opposing army. His life makes sense again. Life of humans? Who knows...

Posted by: Arioch | Apr 21 2022 15:26 utc | 15

Posted by: Dean Oneil | Apr 21 2022 14:53 utc | 4

Interesting, the Ukie seems to be a believer in (but not a supporter of) the 'Heavenly Jerusalem' project!
"...his (Zelensky's) mission is to clean up the Dnieper territory from the Russian and Ukrainian population for the subsequent settlement of this territory by the chosen peoples..."

Posted by: Peter J | Apr 21 2022 15:27 utc | 16

@ 2 phil... bang on.. thank you... i repeat your post below....

"So Putin has ordered a blockade of the Nazis in Avozstal over the orthodox weekend as called by b several days ago. Smart move, as they get increasingly desperate they will probably kill each other and save the Russian forces a job and Russian lives will be saved too. How anyone in the west does not see these Ukranian Nazis for what they are is beyond me.

Posted by: Phil Espin | Apr 21 2022 14:36 utc | 2"

Posted by: james | Apr 21 2022 15:38 utc | 17

realGonzaloLira01
@Lira01Real
https://twitter.com/lira01real

See post on earlier thread

Brannagyn | Apr 21 2022 13:47 utc | 385

The account offers zero photographic or video proof of life, something that would be easy to do. it has also not reached out be email to Gonzalo's friends or family. All signs point to it being fake.

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/04/some-of-the-weapons-delivered-to-ukraine-will-inevitably-be-used-against-us.html?cid=6a00d8341c640e53ef02788078a8f7200d#comment-6a00d8341c640e53ef02788078a8f7200d

Posted by: Oui | Apr 21 2022 15:52 utc | 18

From the Saker.

"there was a large Kaliber missile strike on Lyvov and we are now seeing confirmations from several places of what was struck:

“A stockpile of American, German and British anti-tank missiles was destroyed at a military depot in Lvov. According to our source in the SBU, the attack on the logistics base in Lvov was a complete surprise. Several tens of tons of various anti-tank weapons were destroyed at the facility, including German PanzerFausts, British NLAWs and American Javelins. It was expected that these funds should be enough for a month of active hostilities against Russian troops. According to our source, the plant was carried out secretly on commercial and civilian vehicles. Therefore, an investigation is now underway as to why the Russians were able to figure out all three storage sites.”

And this is interesting.


"there’s reports like this one:

“Poland is secretly preparing a “liberation campaign” against Ukraine. For this purpose, a set of measures is being carried out – the supply of weapons, equipment and mercenaries across the Polish-Ukrainian border. Several formations of the Polish Army – the 18th motorized rifle division and the 6th airborne brigade – are preparing for a “peacekeeping mission”

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 21 2022 15:54 utc | 19

The US has begun training Ukrainian forces on how to use American heavy artillery ( howitzer) in a secret location in Europe, meanwhile the Czech Republic is now repairing Ukrainian military vehicles as there's nowhere in Ukraine left to do so.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 21 2022 16:03 utc | 20

i see turkey has come out and said something very relevant... quote from rt news -

"Turkey wants to negotiate an end to the conflict in Ukraine, while some other NATO members would like to see it drag on as a way to harm Russia, Ankara’s Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said on Wednesday in a TV interview. In a lengthy appearance on CNN Turk, Cavusoglu addressed Turkey’s decision not to sanction Moscow and why the Istanbul talks between Russia and Ukraine failed, among other things.

“There are countries within NATO that want the Ukraine war to continue. They see the continuation of the war as weakening Russia. They don’t care much about the situation in Ukraine,” Cavusoglu said."

Posted by: james | Apr 21 2022 16:03 utc | 21

Lions in forests. Of Amazonia, no less.

Posted by: Arioch | Apr 21 2022 15:05 utc | 10

The more I have reflected in recent years on our folly ravaging our world, the more it seems to consist, in descending order of importance, of at best incompetence with regard to logic, morality, and biology.

Posted by: John Kennard | Apr 21 2022 16:10 utc | 22

...Therefore, an investigation is now underway as to why the Russians were able to figure out all three storage sites.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 21 2022 15:54 utc | 18

It would be naive to think that Russia, headed by a former KGB officer, did not have assets in every important decision making center in Ukraine.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Apr 21 2022 16:22 utc | 23

Arch Bungle @13--

Yes, Putin's looking at the "outside." If as rumored there're many NATO-types along with Azov nasties, unfortunate conscripts and some contract UAF troops, IMO none of them is worth the life of one Russian soldier. Putin certainly knows the score--Azov killing those wanting to surrender, the extent of the works, and the prognosis for how long those forces can last. Soon, the water and air intakes will be found and sealed allowing carbon dioxide & monoxide to do their work.

So, it's on with the Plan, which has many phases and a long road to travel before it concludes. Plus, there's one very important bit of PR: Putin is offering those trapped life while Zelensky has told them to die. What sort of affect will that huge difference have on the globe's masses? IMO, it's right in line with Xi's speech. And recall Putin's audience is the non-Western world with 7/8ths of humanity.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 21 2022 16:23 utc | 24

John Kennard | Apr 21 2022 16:10 utc | 21

oh?

Today -100: April 21, 1922: Headline of the day

Posted by: sln2002 | Apr 21 2022 16:25 utc | 25

Someone noticed that the "Russian soldier" being beheaded by "Lady Ukraine" in that gore video which resembled all the wat the ISIS style´s just resurrected amongst those so tidy and cared "civilians in the basements of Azovstal" in that other cideo appeared these past days....

If you suspected they were performing, you are right, they are part of the troupe...

https://twitter.com/SfigaCatrame/status/1516665766149505026?cxt=HHwWhICypdHeo4wqAAAA

We are watching mainly a series, guys, no wonder Kadyrov is turning into blogger too....

A new adonis looking for fame has entered scene, for what it seems...It seems that the armor is going to be tendence this spring-summer...Attention ot the face expression of the newbie...

https://twitter.com/ciudadfutura/status/1517136022718410752?cxt=HHwWgMCj4ZXL-Y0qAAAA

https://twitter.com/_infoLibre/status/1517122981759266823

https://twitter.com/ComisionOctubre/status/1517141655182225416?cxt=HHwWkMCt8YKT_I0qAAAA

Posted by: Ghost of Mozgovoy | Apr 21 2022 16:29 utc | 26

An appropriate punishment for the kagans, pyatts, nulandmans, etc behind this whole Ukrainian catastrophe would be a complete levelling of their ancient cultural capital Odessa which cookie monster torya had hoped would be the capital of their yiddish khanate 2.0.

Posted by: Yiddistani | Apr 21 2022 16:29 utc | 27

AZOVSTAL WTF

We know a massive complex lies beneath the factory built after WWII. What we don't know is the number of levels, exits and most importantly contents. Many believe a Biological Weapons Lab exists. Based on the location, history,Countries involved, nuclear assets cant be ruled out. Whatever is in there I agree with Putin. Why rush?

I would do extensive research around the area looking for tunnels. Ground Penetrating Radar, etc. If it were my decision I would flood it.

Posted by: ACACTUAL | Apr 21 2022 16:35 utc | 28

The betrayal of Bucha


...
A local militia was formed to defend the people which then went on to liberate areas of Donbas from the undemocratic, unwanted, brutal, unelected fascist leadership in Kiev.

Having visited both Lugansk and Donetsk, I am reliably informed the militia had the military advantage during the conflict and could have freed most of Eastern Ukraine.

Much like today large sections of the Ukraine forces were surrounded.

In 2014 they were allowed to evacuate unhindered.

A pyrrhic victory.

I say this because having spared the lives of the mainly conscripted Ukraine army, some of whom wanted no part in the Kiev coups vicious attack on their fellow citizens, the people of the liberated areas, the independent Republics of Lugansk and Donetsk have suffered 8 years of continuous attacks along the line of contact, the defacto ceasefire positions of 2014.
...
Allowing the failed Minsk Agreements of 2014 and 2015 to form the basis of the ceasefires, with hindsight , only encouraged America, the EU and Nato to rearm the fascists in Kiev and encourage the reoccupation of the Donbas , thus forcing Russia to intercede to defend Russian speaking ethnic Ukranians and Russian passport holding citizens against a possible massacre.

With Bucha we have an example of why Russia should not abandoned areas it liberates.
...
Putin and the Russian government may believe guarantees given by Zelensky and the Ukranian Parliament that Ukraine will remain a neutral country and recognise the Lugansk and
Donetsk independent Republics, with Crimea as part of the Russian Federation.

Any assurances given much like the agreed Minsk Agreements which were guaranteed and underpinned by France and Germany and signed by the Kiev regime may simply be ignored if it is politically convenient to do so.


Posted by: Sundial | Apr 21 2022 16:39 utc | 29

@juliania | Apr 21 2022 14:50 utc | 3
> Five permanent members of the UN Security Council (Russia, China, the UK, the US, France) may be the basis of guarantor states for Ukraine,

Because UK, France & US are trustworthy. They will break it as soon as Russia leaves.

> RSH is watching.

What does RSH mean?

Posted by: Sundial | Apr 21 2022 16:44 utc | 30

Any activity from Bernard Levy the French philosopher -Franc tireur or Yankee General Cloutier recently?

Posted by: Brother Ma | Apr 21 2022 16:48 utc | 31

This is indirectly about Ukraine now, before, and about the essence of what this fight is about:
a great journalist, John Pilger, interviews the former CIA chief for Latin America Duane Clarridge (2015)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER77vxxGVAY
Everyone should watch. Can not be clearer.

Posted by: JB | Apr 21 2022 16:51 utc | 32

https://t.me/denazi_UA/7407 - a nukrainian merc, KIA in Mariupol, had "kara harp okulu" token - Turkey Military Academi. NATO commander of Azov "patriots" ?

https://t.me/denazi_UA/7358 - Florence, Italy. EuroUkrainian refugees "decorate" city statues. Not even African refugees were so "patriotic".

https://t.me/denazi_UA/7339 - Urkainian government of Nikolaev town trade jokes in Facebook:
- Friends, we expect blasts in Nikolaev again. Keep safe in hideouts, or at very least follow the "rule of two walls", and keep away from windows.
- Mayor, please, don't interfere with natural selection.

https://t.me/svarschiki/6041 - Donetsk People's Republic banner raised on Mariupol TV tower, the most elevated point of the city.

https://t.me/ukr_leaks/2393 - the captured British merc describes how his "Azov" peers were randomly capuring civilians in Mariupol streets and pulling them into remote bunker, they never left alive. As usual among captured ukronazi, those always were "other peers from Azov i am not fimilar with", the civilized Britton "dindonuffin".

https://t.me/rt_russian/105795 - SBU used Ukrainian prostitutes and mail-in brides as spies and even saboteurs.


Posted by: Arioch | Apr 21 2022 16:51 utc | 33

Posted by: Sundial | Apr 21 2022 16:44 utc | 29

RSH = Richard Steven Hack

or it could be Radio Schleswig Holstein
:P

Posted by: ianMoone | Apr 21 2022 16:52 utc | 34


What does RSH mean?

Posted by: Sundial | Apr 21 2022 16:44 utc | 29

Ahem... did you read the comment you quoted?

Quote 1: Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 21 2022 8:14 utc | 310

Quote 2: Thank you, RSH, for posting this

Posted by: Arioch | Apr 21 2022 16:53 utc | 35

Do we know there’s a massive underground complex built under Avostal? It’s a terrible place for such construction. The Ilych plant would have been better. All major industrial sites like that have a fair bit of below grade construction for various reasons. If there was a Soviet bomb shelter of great depth, the Russians would know almost everything about it. It’s just been a rumor since the beginning. In the west of Ukraine Russia dropped a Kinzhal into one of those bunkers and ignited munitions stores. They knew enough to know where to target.

People who worked at Avostal have been interviewed in Mariupol. Workers would know about the bunkers. If it’s just utilities, conveyors and transit tunnels, it’s a rat’s nest (they all are) and would be more complicated than an actual bunker.

Posted by: Lex | Apr 21 2022 17:00 utc | 36

@ianMoone | Apr 21 2022 16:52 utc | 33

Thank you. "Radio Schleswig Holstein" it is.

@Arioch | Apr 21 2022 16:53 utc | 34

No, I did not read all of it. I just read from the link downward. "RSH is watching" is an odd statement. I really thought it was God or something like that. Thank you.

@JB | Apr 21 2022 16:51 utc | 31

Psychopaths. And nothing has changed since then. As the old adage goes, "pride before the fall".

Posted by: Sundial | Apr 21 2022 17:12 utc | 37

Mariupol Theatre ruins - remember the UNPRECEDENTED RUSSIA'S ATROCITY !!!! - are being deconstructed. All the bodies would be discovered. Should be top of the news all around the world. But won't.

https://riafan.ru/23126380-rossiiskie_spasateli_pristupili_k_razboru_zavalov_dramteatra_v_mariupole


ex-Kievan citizen remembers how Ukrainian nazism was cultivated since 2004 "Orange" coup and how east-ukrainians were second rank citizens in Ukraine ever since

https://riafan.ru/23114922-_udobno_bit_zhertvoi_zhitel_nitsa_kieva_rasskazala_mfan_kak_vozrozhdali_natsizm_na_ukraine


EuroUkrainian army shoot Tochka-U ballistic missile at chicken farm. https://t.me/swodki/75972

Same "military" strategy: destroy food source, starve people to death. As with Crimea. As with native Americans.

A tank hit by a mine well hidden in debris. Reportedly, no casualties. https://t.me/swodki/75968
Disabled APC towed away to keep important radioelectronics from Azov hands. https://t.me/swodki/75967

Posted by: Arioch | Apr 21 2022 17:14 utc | 38

People who worked at Azovstal have been interviewed in Mariupol. Workers would know about the bunkers. If it’s just utilities, conveyors and transit tunnels, it’s a rat’s nest (they all are) and would be more complicated than an actual bunker.

Posted by: Lex | Apr 21 2022 17:00 utc | 35

Yes, and it's all been hardened into a defense-in-depth for years, what Kadyrov called "a real fortress."

Let it rot.

And as it rots it may attract more rotor-winged flies, and certainly more concerned calls from certain humanely-minded European capitols.

Posted by: John Kennard | Apr 21 2022 17:15 utc | 39

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 21 2022 16:23 utc | 23

Plus, there's one very important bit of PR: Putin is offering those trapped life while Zelensky has told them to die. What sort of affect will that huge difference have on the globe's masses? IMO, it's right in line with Xi's speech. And recall Putin's audience is the non-Western world with 7/8ths of humanity.

The sickest, saddest part of this is that every western media outlet will spin this offer of a chance to live as the most horrific, murderous act ever performed on earth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHV9y5El5_I


Putin is being as degrading and as horrid and as appalling as he possibly can be. He wants to effectively strangle and suffocate them where they are. It's an appalling catastrophe.”

Lord Dannatt, former chief of the general staff, talks to Mariella Frostrup about the Russian army on #TimesRadio.
---
Times Radio brings you the latest breaking news, expert analysis and well-informed discussion on the biggest stories of the day.


Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 21 2022 17:17 utc | 40

The Russians should have access to Soviet era plans of the Avostal plant, and indeed also fresh information from local residents and captured soldiers. Got to wonder about life support for deeply buried structures... However the remaining residents - 2k?? - seem to have been able to survive the bombardment to date, including presumably rather large ordinance delivered by high altitude bombers. Where ever they are sheltering must be fairly sturdy and well supplied. It should be remembered that the Ukraine has been preparing, with lots of NATO help, for a Russian invasion since 2014. Mariupol was hotly contested in 2014 and surely it was assumed that it would be a primary Russian target. The very extensive fortifications and trench systems along the Donbas front show this to be the case (prepared for an invasion).

..............

I have been wondering about the reported tunnel system at Azovstal and the cartoon graphic that I think is sourced from a British rag and seemed entirely made up/conjecture/speculation to me. But now with Putin’s decision to seal and not storm the complex, and a note in RT today quoting a DPR official as saying that the tunnel system was “like an underground city” I think some credence must be given to the idea that there IS a fairly serious underground network of tunnels/bunkers lying beneath the industrial area. By GoogleEarth the ground elevation varies from 40 to around 80′ across the complex and the geology consists of the Ukrainian Shield bedrock (likely with some thickness of alluvial sediments):

“(also Ukrainian Shield), an uplifted block of basement rock in the southwestern part of the Eastern European Platform, extending along the middle and lower Dnieper. The massif has an area of about 200,000 sq km. The folded foundation is broken up by deep meridional faults into a series of blocks: the Volyn’-Podol’e, Belaia Tserkov’-Odessa, Kirovograd, Dnieper, and Azov blocks.

In places, the massifs crystalline basement is covered by a mantle of Cenozoic deposits. The most ancient basement rocks are the lower Archean amphibolites and the schists of the Kon-ka-Verkhovtsevo series in the Dnieper block. The gneisses and schists of the Volyn’-Podol’e, Kirovograd, and Azov blocks are somewhat younger (upper Archean). Lower Proterozoic rocks form the Krivoi Rog series, which contains pockets of ferruginous quartzites. The Korosten’ and Korsun’-Novomirgorod plu-tons of rapakivi granitoids, the Azov complex of alkaline rocks, and others are attributed to the middle Proterozoic. The upper Proterozoic is represented by the Ovruch series of quartzites, schists, and quartz porphyries in the northwestern part of the massif, where they occur in sharp unconformities.

The Krivoi Rog iron-ore basin is located in the Ukrainian Crystalline Massif. The Dnieper coal basin and the Nikopol’ manganese-ore deposit are associated with the mantle rocks on the slopes of the massif.”

A simple geologic map

Given the surface elevation and geology, having bunkers 80′ down doesn’t seem out of the question. As the complex was owned by Ukraine’s richest oligarch and was previously a jewel of Soviet industry it also seems plausible that whatever was in place from Soviet times could have been improved and expanded, especially since 2014.

Posted by: the pessimist | Apr 21 2022 17:28 utc | 41

https://t.me/swodki/75992 - reportedly RuArmy started targeting Ukrainian railways, as NATO pledges to supply EuroUkria with more heavy weaponry.

https://t.me/swodki/75993 - Germany's Annalenna Berbock claims Ukrainian neo-nazi warriors are "defending European order". Third Reich applauds.

https://t.me/barbie_at_war/1790 - interview with the "pregnant ukrainian killed by Russian during natal hospital bombing" was published in Czech.
https://www.ihano.cz/rozhovory/bylo-nemozne-neslyset-nalet/

https://t.me/barbie_at_war/1773 - photos from Beograd (Serbia) streets.

https://t.me/barbie_at_war/1750 - "peace to be everywhere", Mariupol girl after 40 days in basement.

https://t.me/barbie_at_war/1731 - just evening photo

https://t.me/ukr_leaks_eng/142 - Ukrainian Army (not "Azov" or like, but regular army) souvenier - Waffen SS ceremonial dagger.

Interview about bio-labs, https://t.me/ukr_leaks_eng/141 or https://english.news.cn/20220414/0e3010deb95249418969ff876304b236/c.html

Posted by: Arioch | Apr 21 2022 17:31 utc | 42

Europe to deepen military ties with the US.

"The pact would allow routine interactions between American and EU institutions on defense issues and open the door for U.S. defense contractors to participate in the bloc’s growing defense spending under certain conditions."


https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/04/19/first-ever-defense-talks-between-us-eu-near-amid-ukraine-war/

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 21 2022 17:47 utc | 43

This thread is polluted.....

Posted by: vetinLA | Apr 21 2022 17:54 utc | 44

Phil Espin | Apr 21 2022 14:36 utc | 2

"How anyone in the west does not see these Ukranian Nazis for what they are is beyond me."

You're neglecting the possibility that the west sees them for exactly what they are and likes what it sees.

Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Apr 21 2022 17:57 utc | 45

I put this in Google:
Nobody wants to keep dollars

And it responded with this:

It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search

Posted by: Milos | Apr 21 2022 17:59 utc | 46

The Russian language transcript and video of the Putin/Shoigu meeting is available. For those who can't access the Kremlin website or have trouble with obtaining a machine translation, I post it below.

S.Shoigu: Dear Vladimir Vladimirovich,

The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and the People's Militia Forces of the Donetsk People's Republic liberated Mariupol. The remnants of the nationalist formation took refuge in the industrial zone of the Azovstal plant.

Mariupol is a major industrial and main transport hub on the Sea of Azov. In 2014, the Kiev regime declared the city the de facto temporary capital of the Donetsk region, turning it into a powerful fortified area and refuge for radical Ukrainian nationalists in eight years. This is actually the capital of Azov, the Azov battalion.

A large number of heavy weapons, military equipment, including tanks, MLRS "Smerch", "Uragan", artillery systems of high power, missile systems "Tochka-U" were gathered in the city. Tochka-U has a range of 120 kilometers, and our Taganrog is 94 kilometers from Mariupol, the capital of the Southern Federal District, Rostov, is located approximately at this distance.

Stocks of missiles, ammunition and fuel and lubricants, food for long-term hostilities have been created. The main objects of urban infrastructure, including the seaport and the fairway, were mined and not only mined, but also blocked by floating cranes. The ships that were there were mostly foreign vessels.

In total, if we talk about armored vehicles – tanks, armored fighting vehicles, there were 179, 170 guns and mortars of various kinds, including multiple launch rocket systems, which I have already mentioned, "Tornadoes" and "Hurricanes". At the time of the encirclement on March 11, the total number of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and nationalist formations, as well as foreign mercenaries, which were also enough, was more than 8100 people. During the liberation of the city, more than four thousand were destroyed, 1478 surrendered, the remaining group - more than two thousand - was blocked in the industrial zone of the Azovstal plant.

Resisting, the nationalists turned almost all residential buildings into long-term firing points. Armored vehicles and artillery were installed on the first floors, and snipers were installed on the upper floors. Separate detachments - with ATGMs. On the middle floors and in the basements, all the inhabitants were collected, turning them into a human shield. They were held both on the middle floors and in the basements. It was actually in every home.

Retreating, the Ukrainian army, nationalist battalions in Mariupol, as in other Ukrainian cities, hid behind the civilian population. Here we have many cases when, leaving to cover their departure, in any case, we have recorded four such cases, covering their departure, they drove people out of the basements. By the way, it was literally four days ago, when the port area was liberated, and they drove almost everyone from high-rises to the streets in order to hide themselves, leaving behind continuous destruction, including socially significant cultural facilities.

Liberating Mariupol, the Russian army and dpr people's militia units took all measures to save the lives of civilians. On your instructions, Mr President, humanitarian corridors have been opened daily since March 21 to evacuate civilians and foreign citizens.

Soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and militants of nationalist battalions were invited to lay down their arms. They were guaranteed, of course, life, safety and medical care.

As for the planned humanitarian actions – I call them "actions", they combined both corridors and transport supply, these were ambulances and buses, we had days when there were up to a hundred such buses, and 25-30 ambulances each – we daily notified and were in contact with Deputy Prime Minister of Ukraine [Iryna] Vereschuk.

Diplomatic missions of foreign countries that appealed in one way or another, because there were [their] citizens – by the way, many of them were released and taken out of Mariupol in the process of these humanitarian actions – the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, the relevant OSCE structures, the International Committee of the Red Cross and other international organizations, they were officially notified about the time and place. And, of course, at some point we even demanded their presence, in order to, of course, comply with all the humanitarian rules in this part, as far as possible with the constant, continuous conduct and non-continuous firing from Mariupol by the National Troops and the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

Despite their opposition – both militants and everyone else – we managed to evacuate 142,711 civilians from Mariupol after your instruction. All hostages in the commercial seaport have been released, including the crews of seagoing vessels from whom the hijackers destroyed all communication systems so that they could not contact anyone. The port is mined. The sea area is blocked. I hope that now they will have the opportunity to leave this port.

Today, the whole of Mariupol is under the control of the Russian army, the people's militia of the Donetsk People's Republic, and the territory of the Azovstal plant with the remnants of nationalists and foreign mercenaries is securely blocked.

Over the past two days, again on your instructions, we have been declaring a ceasefire regime from 2 to 4 p.m., all hostilities are being completely stopped, and humanitarian corridors have been opened for civilians who may be on the territory of the Azovstal plant to leave.

We have prepared for them about 90 buses, 25 ambulances. Naturally, bearing in mind that all this is constantly distorted, we installed video conferencing cameras, and there was almost a live broadcast here, to our control center. No one left Azovstal. But other civilians, more than 100 people, were able to leave. During these days, this is perhaps a great deal of work that we have done with all international organizations.

At present, the situation in the city is calm, allowing to begin to restore order, return the population and establish a peaceful life. As for those who have disappeared at the Azovstal plant and are thoroughly blocked there and around the perimeter, it takes us about three or four days to complete this work at Azovstal.

The report is over.

Vladimir Putin: I consider the proposed storming of the industrial zone to be inappropriate.

I order the cancellation.

Sergei Shoigu: Yes.

Vladimir Putin: This is a case where we must think – that is, we must always think, but in this case even more so about preserving the lives and health of our soldiers and officers. There is no need to climb into these catacombs and crawl underground on these industrial facilities.

Block this industrial area so that the fly does not fly by.

Sergei Shoigu: Yes.

Vladimir Putin: Invite once again all those who have not yet laid down their arms to do so. The Russian side guarantees them life and decent treatment in accordance with the relevant international legal instruments. All those who are injured will be provided with qualified medical care.

The completion of the combat work on the liberation of Mariupol is a success. Congratulations. Convey words of gratitude to the troops. Please submit proposals for awarding our distinguished soldiers to state awards. It is clear that in such cases there is no other way, these are different awards, but I want them all to know: in our understanding they are all heroes, in the understanding of the whole of Russia. They're all heroes.

In this regard, in addition to fulfilling all social obligations to our servicemen, especially to those who were injured, to the families of our fallen comrades, it is necessary to ensure the unconditional fulfillment of all social guarantees.

But it seems to me that this is not enough. It is necessary to think about additional measures of support, and in some cases to think about perpetuating the memory of those of our comrades who showed truly heroism and sacrificed their lives for the peaceful life of our people in the Donbass and to ensure the peaceful life and existence of Russia itself, the peaceful existence of our country. These people, by their actions and their attitude to the oath, deserved it.

As for the Defence Ministry, please work on it. I will issue a corresponding instruction to the Presidential Executive Office, I will talk to my colleagues in the regions, and they will carry out the relevant work in the municipalities of Russia.

Of course, bringing such an important center in the south as Mariupol under control is a success. Congratulations.

Sergei Shoigu: Thank you, Mr President.

IMO, there will be more instances meriting the awarding of additional recognition as the overall project progresses to its conclusion. I find it par for the course that Russia had to demand the presence of Red Cross and other international aid groups as that tells us they aren't neutral. Wise it was to record it all on video.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 21 2022 18:00 utc | 47

Thirty year US treasury bond reached today the highest yield in last fifty years, indicating a huge sell off ahead of expected FEDs three quarter point increase. For me, this by itself is the most important news today. What’s gonna happen with tens of trillions of printed fiat money?

Posted by: Milos | Apr 21 2022 18:04 utc | 48

"Five permanent members of the UN Security Council (Russia, China, the UK, the US, France) may be the basis of guarantor states for Ukraine..."

The very idea that the US or UK could be anointed guarantor states for any peace agreement is obscene, and of course idiotic. It would guarantee only the constant subversion and eventual complete abrogation of any such agreement.

Only the morbidly stupid or flat-out treasonous could even entertain the idea of a "Minsk III".

Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Apr 21 2022 18:05 utc | 49

@ pessimist, 40

The entombed underground dwellers have to breathe. Let's say we we were to introduce gasoline from above. It evaporates and has a distinctive smell. The entombed dwellers know that when the saturation reaches a certain point, the air around them becomes explosive (detonates).

Interestingly the state where the mixture detonates is at the low end of the concentration. At higher concentrations we only get a deflagration. I.e. as the concentration rises a detonation is likely to follow.
Whatever happens reduces the oxygen content.

Unless they have lots of liquid oxygen they need to pull in fresh air from above which was the source of the problems in the first case.

The smell of volatile vapors is sure to cause some anxiety and might nudge them to lay down their arms and survive.

Posted by: bottle | Apr 21 2022 18:17 utc | 50

@ Milos, 47

The more indebted European countries (Italy, Spain, Greece) cannot afford any rise in interest rates. National default is sure to follow (in the case of Greece has already happened).
Italy and Spain are the nukes buried in the financial heart of Europe.

There is only little that can be done, e.g common Eurobonds with backed by all European countries but mostly Germany. The end can be postponed a little but not avoided: currency devaluation, destruction of saving, impoverishment of retirees, degradation of standards of living.

Posted by: bottle | Apr 21 2022 18:24 utc | 51

Tulsi Gabbard was on Tucker Carlson yesterday and said that she is going to court against Mitt Romney and Keith Olbermann who called her a traitor who should be prosecuted after she spoke about the biolabs found in Ukraine. Why did they and others make such an angry and crazy attack on Tulsi for only speaking the truth? I don't know about Olbermann because he seems insane, but did you know Romney is to blame for increasing cancer in Russia? He used to make a lot of money back in the day with the original oligarchs: Romney’s Firm Profited From U.S.-Russia Cigarette Deals & Privatizations

Also about the war on Tulsi Gabbard by the liberal establishment:

"The mainstream media and many in alt-media see principled people as their enemy. They incite hatred of principled people as un-American, traitors, evil. Are you against tyrannical hegemony as the basis for domestic and foreign policy? Are you against the misuse of the law as de facto political policy at home? Then you are seen as their enemy. Ask Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibbi, Michael Tracey, and especially Tulsi Gabbard how they are treated by the mainstream media and their alt-media enablers for nothing more than asking for principled leadership. They are treated as enemies of the state by a media and political class who claim to be pure promoters of freedom, justice, and the rule of law — while blatantly promoting state/corporate control through censorship, injustice, and lawfare." From Enemy of Their State

Posted by: Kana | Apr 21 2022 18:25 utc | 52

@ JB | Apr 21 2022 16:51 utc | 31

Yup the CIA guy just said it: "If it is in our national security interest we will act."

Now it was understood that the big powers in the world could act like that, overthrow governments democratically elected or not and even invade countries.

However ever since the fall of the Soviet Union the USA considers itself as the sole super power in the world and from then on, they think they are the only ones that can do these things.

In the view of the USA and their satellite states Russia does not have the right to defend their national security interest in a neighboring country with a large ethic Russian minority even. While they themselves NATO and EU can intervene in the same country, with propaganda, media takeover, a coup d'etat etc. Even though there really is no national security interest in it for them. They just have a wish; a need to grow just like any organization.

Posted by: Jimmy | Apr 21 2022 18:27 utc | 53

bottle @49--

I highly doubt any such efforts will be made aside from finding and sealing the air and water intakes as per Putin's order to seal it so a fly can't enter or escape.

Milos @47--

You might find an audience for your comment on the other open thread.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 21 2022 18:28 utc | 54

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 21 2022 17:17 utc | 39

Presumably Lord Dannatt thinks it would be more humane to bomb them into oblivion rather than face the daily opportunity to surrender any time they choose.

The New York Times and Washington Post are spinning it as a Russian defeat, a sort of "Mariupol Stands!"/"Putin Defeated!" kind of thingie, while the UK Daily Mail is vigorously engaged in forwarding some serious projection,

"Boris Johnson fears Ukraine peace talks with Russia are doomed because of Vladimir Putin's 'lack of good faith'"

and

"Putin's troops 'will be remembered as the most barbaric and inhuman army in the world' with Russia 'deemed a source of absolute evil for generations', President Zelensky declares."

Both these leaders have repeatedly proven themselves utterly-contemptible liars, and all these media have repeatedly proven themselves utterly-contemptible propaganda-organs, and those who take such leaders and media as veracious are still more contemptible.

Posted by: John Kennard | Apr 21 2022 18:29 utc | 55

Posted by: Milos | Apr 21 2022 18:04 utc | 47

Inflation's already hit forty-year highs in both the US and the UK.

Posted by: John Kennard | Apr 21 2022 18:34 utc | 56

Well the USA UK and the West has created a monster in Zelensky. Although the Russians clearly handed over peace proposals to the Uki negotiating team Zelensky us denying all knowledge of it. A stalling tactic I assume. He is a highly dangerous induvidual who is being idolised by the West. If they allow his request to route Russian oil by the Uki pipeline only he will have them all by the balls quite literally. Putin is a man of deep principle who has a keen respect for the Law. He is therefore honouring all the international and incumbent obligations in the conduct of this SMO. How the West are now going to control Zelensky is beyond me. He hasn't the integrity or Statesmanship Putin has. They hand him over the Oil and Gas and he'll destroy them. He hasn't got an honest bone in his body. He's a liar grossly corrupt and now has deeply embedded Messianic delusions. There must be one President in the West who will speak out other than Orban and Vucic and stop this utter madness. NATO can end this by refusing to allow Ukraine to be part of NATO or part if the EU and guarantee not to arm it. Instead they are just a bunch of ignorant self interested intellectually deficient bunch of boys and girls playing with their little toys in a school playground bullying the principles and teachers and pupils. Bob Moran could, I'm sure, draw a wicked cartoon. In the meantime China us warming up nicely. KAPOW!! Ciaou USA and EU and West!

Posted by: Jo Dominich | Apr 21 2022 18:40 utc | 57

Now that steel factory, AZOV steel, that was the base of the AZOV battalion right ? Now Zelensky is saying that there are also a couple of hundredth civilians there; woman and children.

Now there seems to be a trend that wherever Ukrainian forces are fighting it is in between civilians, but how on earth did civilians end up at a military base, where people do not live, how is these even possible if in is in fact true.

Posted by: Jimmy | Apr 21 2022 18:41 utc | 58

No. I insist he be hung and not hanged. Death is too good for him.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 21 2022 15:05 utc | 11


Why should God waste an outsized penile endowment on the guy?

Posted by: malenkov | Apr 21 2022 18:48 utc | 59

Jimmy | Apr 21 2022 18:41 utc | 57

1. The Nazis may have dragged civilians down there as hostages.

2. According to rumor some Nazis may have brought their own families down there.

Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Apr 21 2022 18:49 utc | 60

A new adonis looking for fame has entered scene, for what it seems...It seems that the armor is going to be tendence this spring-summer...Attention ot the face expression of the newbie...

[links deleted]

Posted by: Ghost of Mozgovoy | Apr 21 2022 16:29 utc | 25


Not exactly a "new Adonis." That's Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister.

Posted by: malenkov | Apr 21 2022 18:56 utc | 61

I consider the situation in Ukraine only a consequence and symptom of the state of insanity in the Western world ("civilization") where the degradation of the intellect is more advanced than elsewhere:

Thorough conviction that perception trumps reality
widespread belief that "you can be anything you want to be",
Pregnant male emojies built into the new iOS
Plans to move to the planet Mars
The human species will meld with silicon to reach a new level of advancement
Become immortal by uploading yourself to the metaverse
All of reality is an "ancestor simulation" with high probability ("philosophy" department, Oxford University)
Science flourishes under censorship,...

I believe that Western civilization is in the state of the "behavioural sink" identified by Calhoun in his experiments with mice and rats. These are extremely hilarious and the similarities to current human behaviour stunning.

This state was always followed by a population crash as the rats literally lost the skills necessary to breed even though secure housing, food and freedom from predators and disease was provided.

It is all extremely amusing (e.g. the emergence of "narcistic" rats engaged only in constantly grooming themselves, link below, p85, right column), so here is a link:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1644264/pdf/procrsmed00338-0007.pdf

Enjoy!

Posted by: bottle | Apr 21 2022 18:56 utc | 62

The Central Bank of the Russian Federation a forecast for the development of the Russian economy.
And like all economic forecasts, this could be right, wrong or very wrong.
Much can be done meanwhile in Russian economy, if there is the will and the unity .

from Readovka on Telegram

"Expectations have not changed - the Central Bank of the Russian Federation released a new forecast for the development of the Russian economy for the coming years

How it works: every month, the Central Bank sends out a questionnaire to economists, in which it proposes to predict important economic indicators for several years ahead, and calculates the average results. The results of the April survey are almost the same as those conducted a month earlier . We have collected the most important:

- Inflation will be 22% (a month ago we expected 20%). The inflation outlook has risen slightly even though Russia's average monthly price growth is now less than one percent. But in 2023, prices are expected to rise by only 7.6%.

- GDP will contract by 9.2% (previously expected 8% fall). Most likely, the realization of the fact that the Ukrainian conflict and sanctions are not a matter of a couple of months affected. Zero economic growth is expected in 2023.

- The unemployment rate will be 6.9% (versus 4.3% last year and 5.9% two years earlier) . Here we see that unemployment will rise slightly. In many ways, it may be due to the withdrawal of Western companies from the Russian market. At the same time, unemployment will return to its usual level in a year.

- Nominal wages will rise by 9.8%, which will partially cover the rise in prices. The average annual exchange rate of the dollar will be 85 rubles (against an estimate of 110 in the previous survey) and will gradually grow.

What conclusion can be drawn from all this? The prognosis is not the best, but it could have been much, much worse."

and further on the Readovka-channel :
"The head of the US Treasury,Janet Yellen, makes strange statements about the financing of the Armed Forces of Ukraine with Russian assets, not taking into account the laws."

The use of the frozen Russian reservs to finance Ukraine has been talked since the confiscation of the assets.
There are also precedents.

Posted by: ka | Apr 21 2022 18:57 utc | 63

卍elenksy get JFK award for defending democracy. :-D

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/zelenskyy-gets-john-f-kennedy-award-for-defending-democracy-1.5870378

Posted by: Victor | Apr 21 2022 19:12 utc | 64

@ Victor | Apr 21 2022 19:12 utc | 63

This is getting hilarious, Zelensky getting an award for defending democracy

A democracy where opposition parties are banned, Media outlets were flat out banned, anyone that is a dissident, that somehow wants to compromise with Russia will get canceled or even arrested.

Anyone that has another opinion and voices it, then the Ukrainian nationalists is basically branded a Russian spy, pro Russian agent be it a journalist, blogger, politicians not citizen can not life a normal life anymore and is in danger.

Some democracy.

Posted by: Jimmy | Apr 21 2022 19:29 utc | 65

Biden just said he doubts that Putin (sic - he means RF and should say DPR) really controls Mariupol.

IMO that is not a propaganda statement. He likely believes that and has just been told that by his advisors. They believe it too. All their decisions and all their actions make far more sense if they are that completely deluded.

Posted by: oldhippie | Apr 21 2022 19:33 utc | 66

Why does everyone miss the fact that although Putin was in the KGB for 16 years, attaining the rank of Lt. Colonel, he was also the Director of the FSB (successor to the KGB)in 1999,? A physically and mentally declining Boris Yeltsin appointed him Prime Minister in 1999 and he assumed the Presidency (acting) upon Yeltsin's resignation and 4 month's later won the Russian Presidential election.

Posted by: Petar Mrkonjic | Apr 21 2022 19:42 utc | 67

Re: ld | Apr 21 2022 14:26 utc | 1

Thanks for the link to Migratory birds of mass destruction

Please correlate that to this webpage of the US Embassy in Ukraine on Biological Threat Reduction Program I find it very interesting that the page is still online, but I suppose the US has "nothing to hide", right?

If you scroll down about 2/3s of the page, you come to this section:

Active Research Projects

BTRP supports many collaborative research projects through which Ukrainian and American scientists work together.  A few recent examples are:

 -“Risk Assessment of Selected Avian EDPs Potentially Carried by Migratory Birds over Ukraine”
-“Prevalence of Crimean Congo hemorrhagic fever virus and hantaviruses in Ukraine and the potential requirement for differential diagnosis of suspect leptospirosis patients”
 -“The Spread of African Swine Fever Virus (ASFV) in Domestic Pigs and Wild Boars in Ukraine – Building Capacity for Insight into the Transmission of ASFV through Characterization of Virus Isolates by Genome Sequencing and Phylogenetic Analysis”

This comes pretty damn close to a public confession of guilt, imho.

Posted by: Perimetr | Apr 21 2022 19:43 utc | 68

What have happend with Lira? If he is alive his hostage takers would have showed some video, photos of him I guess?

Scott Ritter:

An American journalist goes missing in Ukraine. The silence is deafening
Gonzalo Lira’s disappearance should have triggered outrage and calls for an investigation by the “freedom-loving” US government and media

https://www.rt.com/russia/554289-gonzalo-lira-disappearance-ukraine/

American Zelensky critic goes missing in Ukraine Unconfirmed accounts claim blogger Gonzalo Lira was abducted by a unit linked to the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion
https://www.rt.com/russia/554256-lira-blogger-ukraine-missing/

Posted by: Zanon | Apr 21 2022 19:43 utc | 69

@oldhippie | Apr 21 2022 19:33 utc | 65

They can't be so deluded as to think that after the Russian and DPR forces have mopped up the areas they conquered, that they are unable to set up a city administration and local law enforcement. I mean any country no matter how poor no matter how incompetent can do that. and keep a civilian population under control. it's just ridiculous really, they must know deep down that it's not true and just propaganda.

Posted by: Jimmy | Apr 21 2022 19:46 utc | 70

Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Apr 21 2022 17:57 UTC | 44

"How anyone in the west does not see these Ukrainian Nazis for what they are is beyond me."

You're neglecting the possibility that the west sees them for exactly what they are and likes what it sees.

* * *

Probably one of the most chilling observations I’ve heard in a long time.

Posted by: GreyRaven | Apr 21 2022 19:54 utc | 71

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 21 2022 18:00 utc | 46

Thank you for posting the transcription of the conversation between Shoigu and Putin, karlof1; and thank you for all your important posts - it may be helpful for b to have a record here of these statements, even if we can ourselves visit the sites. And we can more easily quote from that record as you thoughtfully provide it here,so as to stay on track with what is being said in the official record, on a daily basis.

Posted by: juliania | Apr 21 2022 19:55 utc | 72

Phil Espin | Apr 21 2022 14:36 utc | 2

"How anyone in the west does not see these Ukranian Nazis for what they are is beyond me."

They are saying:

-Yelenski is not a nazi, because he is jewish.
-Neo-nazis are not nazis; there are neo-nazis in Germany, in the USA, etc. and they have the right to free speech.
-Putin is Hitler.
-Russia is a dictatorship, when Ukraine is not.
-It is the FSB which activated the separatists in Donbass.
-Everyone can speak Russian, it is not forbidden, only official documents are in Ukrainian.

And they all repeat the very same things like robots.

Posted by: Olivier | Apr 21 2022 19:58 utc | 73

Flying Dutchman @44 Certainly the people in power and security services of the west don’t care about the nazism of Azov and their ilk. They are useful tools in a vain attempt to wear the Russians down. The paid media whores will parrot what they are paid to say. I honestly believe that the majority of the people of Britain, France, Germany and Italy would be as appalled as the Russians about Ukrainian fascist activities, if they were reported. The situation of Gonzalo Lira and other missing contrarian reporters and politicians sickens me and will sicken others when they eventually come to realise what is happening.

Posted by: Phil Espin | Apr 21 2022 19:59 utc | 74

Re: comments 9 & 11

To: Archbungle and Malenkov

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdExsAQuCQA&ab_channel=meinteil11

Posted by: Degringolade | Apr 21 2022 20:05 utc | 75

I believe that Western civilization is in the state of the "behavioural sink" identified by Calhoun in his experiments with mice and rats. These are extremely hilarious and the similarities to current human behaviour stunning.

This state was always followed by a population crash as the rats literally lost the skills necessary to breed even though secure housing, food and freedom from predators and disease was provided.

It is all extremely amusing (e.g. the emergence of "narcistic" rats engaged only in constantly grooming themselves, link below, p85, right column), so here is a link:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1644264/pdf/procrsmed00338-0007.pdf

Enjoy!

Posted by: bottle | Apr 21 2022 18:56 utc | 61

Not just the West, the entire world.

But the stunning speed with which the Wuhan Omicron variant swept a world already geared up against that family of viruses convinced me that this is how Nature is going to regulate our numbers since we have refused to do so ourselves.

Posted by: John Kennard | Apr 21 2022 20:09 utc | 76

democracy, freedom of the press and the state of freedom of thought in Austria
the Elites must be pretty insecure about their reasoning abilities, and their cause, if they can't broach any news or opposing opinions from RT and Sputnik

I call all this the Straight-jacket of Authority

https://twitter.com/PelmeniPusha/status/1516894927493505029
Chebureki Vibes@PelmeniPusha

🇦🇹 Austria will fine €50,000 anyone who broadcasts videos or news from Russia Today and Sputnik.
4:41 PM · Apr 20, 2022

Posted by: michaelj72 | Apr 21 2022 20:10 utc | 77

Jimmy @ 69

Yes, they could be that deluded. Those of them who read (does Biden?) read the NYT and WP. Who are calling this as a victory for Azov. Remember back to the Vietnam era when Robert McNamara sat down one day with a group of Harvard students and told them that other than technical reports he got concerning logistics he really did not know more than they did, that his best source was NYT, that he largely disregarded spew from DIA and CIA, and that he was genuinely interested in whatever information the students might have.

President gets a daily briefing from CIA. Then he gets same story a second time from WP. Then he gets it a third time from NYT. His aides are a pack of nitwits. His VP is astonishingly stupid. Are there better informed parties? Probably. Do they have access? Who knows. Another old story, this is one Seymour Hersh used to tell in interviews. Shortly after Obama was inaugurated Thomas Pickering, then retired but still the dean of US diplomatic corps, got a call from parties in Iran. Said parties complained they were being shut out by the new administration and wanted Pickering to get a message to the President. Pickering had worked for every US President from Johnson to Bush Jr. And had had some interaction with Ike and JFK. Pickering could not get through. Baby Bush was often called the boy in the bubble. Obama’s bubble was far more exclusive. Iranians could not believe such an arrangement was possible; it was so.

Obama is now in his third term. Bubble man runs it by remote. Tell me who is going to give Obama straight information.

Posted by: Oldhippie | Apr 21 2022 20:14 utc | 78

@ oldhippie | Apr 21 2022 19:33 utc | 65 Re:

"All their decisions and all their actions make far more sense if they are that completely deluded."

Quite, that is something I have been saying for a long time now. The only other way it could make sense is if a controlled demolition of the west is intended and the banksters intend to switch mounts and continue to rule the planet from China

Posted by: MarkU | Apr 21 2022 20:25 utc | 79

While the chitchat goes on here, the Central Research Institute of Aerospace Defense of the Russian Federation went up in flames today. I hope they have a backup.
Meanwhile Putin is being nice to Nazis. Once again.

Posted by: bjd | Apr 21 2022 20:38 utc | 80

I just wanted to second what Juliania said at 71 about karlof1's posts and translations.

Posted by: cirsium | Apr 21 2022 20:41 utc | 81

No, Putin opted to spare lives of his soldiers. It is pointless to assault azovstal bunkers.

Have them under siege until they die from hunger or thirst. Some of them will surrender, some kill each other, those last ones will detonate set charges to cave all in.

If Russian soldiers assaulted the place it would end up the same, last one detonating charges. Pointless to go in.

Posted by: Abe | Apr 21 2022 20:44 utc | 82

Martyanov, on Azovstal:

Per Azov Steel--good decision by Kremlin. Not only Russia saves the lives of her soldiers but makes sure that somebody inside the plant is (are) convinced by hunger, thirst and the onset of Kubler-Ross paradigm to come out and surrender. Or die. Not only Mariupol is liberated but it is the fact that it was the most heavily armed and trained grouping of VSU and Nazi brigades which was supposed to repeat Stalingrad which was annihilated. The plan for defense of this festung was developed in Pentagon and, naturally, it failed. Somebody is hiding there, somebody interesting. Who could this be, hmm? I wonder. Will this or those hiding there commit a suicide in order to not surrender to those nasty Rosskies or will they decide that they may have a chance to be "exchanged" into their native countries? We'll see. It is getting curioser and curioser.

https://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Apr 21 2022 20:47 utc | 83

@Abe (81)

He could have decided to do as you describe, without having it televised around the world. See what I mean?

Posted by: bjd | Apr 21 2022 20:48 utc | 84

So the fighters in Azovstal want a 'get out of jail free' card to leave - no surrender, organized by a "3rd party", get to keep their weapons. Traitorous weasels. I hope Russia keeps them their until they come out like the bedraggled rats they are of their own volition. Seems to be what Putin had in mind.

Posted by: the pessimist | Apr 21 2022 20:54 utc | 85

Posted by: michaelj72 | Apr 21 2022 20:10 utc | 76
“Austria will fine €50,000 anyone who broadcasts videos or news from Russia Today and Sputnik.”

* * *

Sadly, this development which reflects badly upon the journalistic standards of the Austrian Republic, is not one of the customary Twitter “crapouts” we have become so accustomed to but has been confirmed by the Austrian newspaper “Der Standard”. Apparently, the daily heartily condones this type of censorship and sees no conflict thereby with the concept of “the freedom of the press”.

Link to: https://www.derstandard.at/story/2000133980411/bis-50-000-euro-fuer-verbreitung-von-russischem-staatssender-rt

In Austria, Internet access to numerous Russian Federation news outlets (such as RT (Russia Today) and Sputnik, has been blocked since just after the onset of the RF special operation in Ukraine. Press coverage in Austria has been strongly pro U.S./NATO and massively anti-Russian Federation. Even the supposedly “neutral” Austrian Broadcasting Corporation (ORF) has maintained a blindly pro-Ukrainian “Live Ticker” on its website, whereby journalistic standards there have slipped far, it will presumably never be possible to reestablish its credentials as a serious public broadcasting news source for years, if ever again.

Without question, we are currently witnessing a global journalistic meltdown and there is a very good chance that we (the general public) will never be informed again according to the journalistic standards we were once accustomed to.

Does anyone here remember the International Herald Tribune, published out of Paris?

Today, we find ourselves behind a cultural and informational Iron Curtain of our own making.

Journalisticaly, we in the West are the New Soviets.

Posted by: GreyRaven | Apr 21 2022 21:01 utc | 86

Petar Mrkonjic | Apr 21 2022 19:42 utc | 66 "Why does everyone miss the fact that although Putin was in the KGB for 16 years,......"

Putin's background is common knowledge. What was the point of your post?

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 21 2022 21:01 utc | 87

Phil Espin | Apr 21 2022 19:59 utc | 73

"I honestly believe that the majority of the people of Britain, France, Germany and Italy would be as appalled as the Russians about Ukrainian fascist activities, if they were reported. The situation of Gonzalo Lira and other missing contrarian reporters and politicians sickens me and will sicken others when they eventually come to realise what is happening."

I think you're optimistic about how many would remain appalled for long, if they ever were, and that's assuming they really were ignorant of the Ukronazis in the first place.

However much the Ukebot Russophobes of today may avoid anything outside the imperial media's propaganda machine, those that have been reading the MSM for any number of years prior to February 2022 certainly have heard of the Ukrainian Nazis and their ways.

https://askeptic.substack.com/p/the-msms-ukraine-amnesia?s=r

Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Apr 21 2022 21:07 utc | 88

Oldhippie @77--

Obama's CIA, a reversal in the usual arrangement.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 21 2022 21:11 utc | 89

Karlof @ 88

I’m missing something. Could you repeat that in different words? I do want to know your take. I seldom reply to you because even when I disagree your version is valid and interesting.

Posted by: Oldhippie | Apr 21 2022 21:16 utc | 90

@ 86 - Everyone always talks about Vladimir Putin being in the KGB, yet they rarely discuss that George HW Bush was the director of the CIA for a year. I have always found that to be annoying.
It's like when people talk about the situation in Ukraine. I ask people, "What about Minsk? Minsk Two was signed February 15, 2015."
A glazed look generally comes over their eyes. I then steer the conversation over to the weather.

Posted by: lex talionis | Apr 21 2022 21:21 utc | 91

Today, we find ourselves behind a cultural and informational Iron Curtain of our own making.
Journalisticaly, we in the West are the New Soviets.

Posted by: GreyRaven | Apr 21 2022 21:01 utc | 85

This cross-cultural phenomenon of shutting down, even criminalizing, the last meager channels of coherent information in "the west" -- it seems self-perpetuating. Auto-escalatory, like military "aid" to Ukraine: easy to see how it keeps getting worse from here. Way more difficult to imagine reversing totalitarian momentum.

At some point, can the endpoint of total informational, historical erasure be denied? It would be nice to spot little cracks of epistemological resistance sprouting in unexpected places. So far, since 2/22/22, it's overwhelming totalitarian concrete, continuing to pour out and harden, smothering all venues of common understanding.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Apr 21 2022 21:22 utc | 92

- From Graham Phillips

- Mariupol - The Battle for Azovstal - April 20/21 Update

https://youtu.be/bfFH6YrY70s

Posted by: Jimmy | Apr 21 2022 21:23 utc | 93

Aleph_Null | Apr 21 2022 21:22 utc | 91

It's been some time in the making but for us i the 'west' we are now living in the age of peak bullshit.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 21 2022 21:33 utc | 94

Posted by: Phil Espin | Apr 21 2022 19:59 utc | 73

“I honestly believe that the majority of the people of Britain, France, Germany and Italy would be as appalled as the Russians about Ukrainian fascist activities, if they were reported.”

* * *

I fully agree with you.

The central import of your statement is, “if they were reported”, and that is precisely the point: these Ukrainian activities are NOT being reported. They are being overlooked, ignored, missed, or are simply disappearing under some filthy rug located in New York, Paris, or London.

Although there are many who will profoundly disagree, I believe that the suppression and/or manipulation of journalistic input is the equivalent to a crime against humanity and its democratic structures.

After the war in Ukraine has ended, I also believe that a new and general understanding will come into being on a journalistic level, that the type of lies, propaganda, disinformation, and deception that we are experiencing on a journalistic basis right now, will be permanently banned from any kind of warfare – just as poison gas and other methods of battlefield mass extermination were banned after the horror of the trenches of WWI.

I think we will all come to realize, that mankind cannot continue operating in this fashion, and expect to survive the next 100 years.

On the course we are now on, we are losing all contact with reality and that, as we all know, is the definition of insanity.

Posted by: GreyRaven | Apr 21 2022 21:34 utc | 95

I wonder if Russia does in fact have control of the azovstal facility. If they did I would think they would block the exit and return to other duties while guarding against rescue attempts. I am glad that Putin does not see need to risk his people on trivial (in context) task.
If there were a need to smoke them out, I would think an irritant such as chlorine in less than lethal does.

Posted by: jared | Apr 21 2022 21:35 utc | 96

Posted by: juliania | Apr 21 2022 14:50 utc | 3
"Perhaps you could outline your dissatisfaction with this? (Mine was the misleading heading, which seemed to say the preliminary focus was determinative.)"

Simple. Any "guarantee" by anyone other than Russia is an invitation to trouble. My point of the "WTF" is why is Russia even thinking of such a thing? I suspect that the person making the statement is one of the so-called "Russian negotiators" who have been criticized in the past for their incompetence, including by Mercouris IIRC.

I won't bother reiterating my position on what Russia needs to do to satisfy its security interests. Having a Ukraine not under its thumb to at least some degree, however "light" the thumb, is not part of that position.

If it's a ploy to get Ukraine to surrender, then fine. But it better not go beyond that. And I don't believe it will - I don't think Putin is that dumb. But I could be wrong, of course.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 21 2022 21:41 utc | 97

Posted by: Oui | Apr 21 2022 15:52 utc | 17

I agree. I suggested to that person that they conduct the Duran guys or use the Telegram channel. He claimed he hasn't started a new Telegram channel, which is not what I suggested. If he can tweet, even on someone else's machine, he can use his Telegram channel. He has the Duran guys' email, for sure, and if he can tweet he can email.

So until someone I recognize says otherwise, it's a fake.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 21 2022 21:45 utc | 98

Because Obama was inexperienced in Foreign Affairs he relied on VP Biden. Even worse, as Senator Obama was schooled by Lieberman on the Middle East and foreign affairs ... made poor choices on team of advisors ... nomination of Hillary was not just clumsy, but a disaster ... Susan Rice and Samantha Power with R2P policy ... 8 years wrong direction .... drone assassinations ...Iraq, Afghanistan (nixed advise in 2009 from Richard Holbrooke), Libya and Syria. War crimes and crimes against humanity. Gross failure in so-called reset with Russia ... initiated policy to make Russia a pariah state ... regime change Kyiv 2014 ... US Congress pressed this policy forward last two decades.

Posted by: Oui | Apr 21 2022 21:45 utc | 99

2 Russian gas executives found dead along with each ones wife and daughter. One in Spain and one in Russia. "Apparent" murder/suicides.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/russian-oligarch-family-dead-spain-1699660%3famp=1

Posted by: Woogs | Apr 21 2022 21:48 utc | 100

next page »

The comments to this entry are closed.