We are supposed to believe that there is a nuclear bunker below the Azovstal plant.
Would you build a nuclear bunker under what is certainly ground zero in a nuclear war?
There might be some underground structures but not very likely of the bunker type. There are no blast doors, life support systems etc. Therefore there is no excuse that this situation is not already resolved and holding up troop movements.
Another imbecile idea is to pump water down into the “tunnels”.
It’s not very effective, lots is needed and fairly hard to get out again.
Much less ordinary natural gas will make a thermobaric mixture with the air, blow up, cause moderate damage and disappear in the process. Which is a solution if we are unwilling to devote the resources to keep the lot underground.

Posted by: bottle | Apr 17 2022 23:53 utc | 204

Posted by: Boo | Apr 17 2022 23:53 utc | 204
What part no fucking launchers don’t you get? Why do you keep posting obvious fakes?

Posted by: CharlesLutherThanos | Apr 18 2022 0:03 utc | 206

looks like could be real. would expect a net on helipad if its in use, which it surely would be, kindof hard to see… thats abt it

Posted by: ptb | Apr 18 2022 0:09 utc | 208

ref:
https://i.imgur.com/SuSyNHK.jpeg

Posted by: ptb | Apr 18 2022 0:15 utc | 210

The problem I have with Glazyev is his unfortunate need to engage in I Told You Soisms–If you had listened to me in 2014, we could have avoided this hybrid war. His angst is understandable but is unproductive and even off-putting at this point. He’s not the only voice screaming from the wilderness about the need to dedollarize. Glazyev must put that behind him as he works to help formulate the new reality.
I’m also shocked of his ignorance of the very longstanding CIA involvement with OUN inside Ukraine and its diligent remaking of the Ukrainian mind. Thankfully, he gets into the business of telling us the positive. I can see why Putin assigned him to the EEU. Glazyev’s too smart to be a mere bank director.
Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 17 2022 23:23 utc | 196
Agreed, you put it well. I read that article and to me it reads to me that he does not have the full support of the Kremlin as yet and these are still his dreams not the planned reality.

Posted by: K | Apr 18 2022 0:24 utc | 212

Posted by: CharlesLutherThanos | Apr 18 2022 0:03 utc | 205
I can see the launchers through the smoke. As I said, these photos can be deep fakes, I’m still sceptical about them, but you can’t call it an “obvious” fake. The channel I posted the links from is a channel of Russian mil. correspondents, it’s in their description:
War Correspondents of the Russian Spring (rusvesna . su) operate in combat formations of troops in the Donbas, Ukraine and Syria, receiving information from the hottest spots.
You can ask them the same questions you’re asking me.
BTW, this is the second time you’re not capable of seeing things in the photos I link to, the first time I ignored it, but given your salty and intemperate language this time I’ll ask you: have you checked your eyesight recently?

Posted by: Boo | Apr 18 2022 0:35 utc | 214

anyway not going to bother too much about this

Posted by: ptb | Apr 18 2022 0:37 utc | 216

Posted by: I’mmaculate deceptio | Apr 18 2022 0:08 utc | 206

For those of you who want to garden/farm I suggest “The Complete Book of Composting” by J.L. Rodale.

I suggest you send a few thousand copies to the Russian forces in Mariupol – they may now have both the materials and the leeway for a new hobby.
(Sorry, I’ll see myself out …)

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 18 2022 0:40 utc | 218

bottle #203

There might be some underground structures but not very likely of the bunker type. There are no blast doors, life support systems etc. Therefore there is no excuse that this situation is not already resolved and holding up troop movements.
Another imbecile idea is to pump water down into the “tunnels”.
It’s not very effective, lots is needed and fairly hard to get out again.
Much less ordinary natural gas will make a thermobaric mixture with the air, blow up, cause moderate damage and disappear in the process. Which is a solution if we are unwilling to devote the resources to keep the lot underground.

Consider this. All of this is in THE Ukraine and that place has decades of history of being as corrupt as the USA. So an enterprising steelworks manager in Soviet times could easily pocket a pile from convincing the then Russian President (from THE Ukraine) to build it on his patch.
The underground construction is a tricky spot to eradicate armed to the teeth fanatics. Why hold up an army of dedicated fighters when only three abreast can likely fit in any corridor. You would lose a thousand trying to get a hundred.
I read they were possibly going to fill it with Mariupol sewage. Thats good enough for the Azov gang. Using plain water – why not? Believe me getting water out of that type of cistern would be a cinch for a mining engineer – they do that stuff all the time.
I like your gas proposal, it seems effective but then you could never be certain the explosive pulse would be acute enough to reach the depths with absolute certainty. Gas burns much slower than explosives and the pressure wave has to be very sharp to kill with certainty.
The blast pulse from a big bomb nearby or on top would be brain damaging to most inside.
Set the Chechens free to roam the hills I say. They are much more useful terminating free range nazis elsewhere than diverted by the Mariupol subterranean trap these clowns are in.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 18 2022 0:57 utc | 220

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 18 2022 0:51 utc | 218

Either way, by one means or another, the Russians need to start bleeding the Empire at a faster rate than the Empire is bleeding them …

The empire has been bleeding itself for quite some time now. And with Europe committing suicide I have to wonder who the US has left to trade with. US is basically locked to a collapsing Europe. Russia need only concentrate on the business at hand and watch the US and Europe commit suicide. “Inviting” direct US forces into Russia’s backyard isn’t strategically smart as that can only help boost the probabilities of a nuclear exchange. Most everyone is going to suffer as the neoliberal world order unwinds. Russia knows that it’s going to suffer (though it hopes that it doesn’t have to come rival WWII’s suffering).

Posted by: Seer | Apr 18 2022 0:58 utc | 222

I’mmaculate deceptio #206

For those of you who want to garden/farm I suggest “The Complete Book of Composting” by J.L. Rodale. It’s a thousand pages of invaluable information.

Thanks and I get the Rodale method and have used it many of my days but it is surpassed by the techniques applied by the Australian Aboriginals for the past 60 or 70,000 years. Their composting and cultivation techniques were astounding until devastated by european colonisation.
One of the major issues confronting agriculturalists is farming on an industrial scale with minimum human labor input. That is where vast imports of raw materials growing exotic crops is a challenge. In the home farm or small lot system the compost based approach is entirely workable and extremely productive when its foundation is the Indigenous Australian agricultural technique.
Apologies for this OFF TOPIC response.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 18 2022 1:07 utc | 224

Kiev-regime forces held civilians captive as human shields in the Ilyich factory. They also planted anti-personnel mines that the regime had supposedly destroyed as part of international treaties. The Donetsk People’s Republic army troops also captured some US produced Humvees there, which they thanked Joe Biden for. 😉
See the full RT investigative video below:
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/mariupol-plant-surrender:c

Posted by: Nate | Apr 18 2022 1:08 utc | 226

Been staying out of the Moskva debate, but I did find this interesting bit out of Romania.

Interservices (Romania)
A drifting mine was sighted on 28 March 2022 at 0810 hrs. in position 44°19.5′ N 029°35.0′ E, i.e. about 39 Nm ENE of Constantza Cape Midia.
The location was attended soon thereafter by the mine sweeper vessel “Viceamiral Constantin Balescu”, having on board a team of explosive ordnance disposal (EOD) divers.
The drifting mine, identified as being of Ukrainian origin, was destroyed subsequently by explosives placed on the same, actuated remotely by the EOD divers.

Is that anywhere near where the Moskva could have been hit by a drifting mine, or are drifting mines just too common in that whole zone now to even merit discussion?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 18 2022 1:18 utc | 228

@ Arch Bungle | Apr 18 2022 0:51 utc | 218 who wrote
”
Either way, by one means or another, the Russians need to start bleeding the Empire at a faster rate than the Empire is bleeding them …
”
Thanks for that observation with which I agree
I agree with Seer | Apr 18 2022 0:58 utc | 221 that empire is creating the seeds of its own destruction but the knockout blow has not been given and I continue to think it would be best if China, Syria, Yemen, Iran, etc. do a show of combined push back against empire…but I am a dreamer.
I think there are plenty of empire military actively engaged in the Ukraine conflict as well as the biolabs that can show the hypocrisy of the “no boots on the ground” BS.
I am interested in barfly’s perception of Russia not seeming to enforce its ultimatum on the captured in Mariupol. Its above my pay grade and I am not sure what to think. Maybe another 24/48 hours will provide clarity to us armchair/ standing in my case, Strategists.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 18 2022 1:19 utc | 230

Re Nat gas down the Azovstal bunker
Not such a good idea, since CH4 is a lot lighter than air and will stratify quickly.
Winter gasoline will do the trick nicely, will mix readily and be a very nice thermobaric mix.

Posted by: CarlD | Apr 18 2022 1:21 utc | 232

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 18 2022 1:18 utc | 226
Not looked at this issue recently, but the mines started drifting about a month ago after a storm, some of them by end of March were demined along Bulgarian and Turkish coasts. I believe that 4, may be 5, mines have been disabled so far. There is a small chance that there are still mines coming from Odessa’s coast. Look at this article, which was coincidentally published on the 27th of March, the day before the Romanian mine was discovered:
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/03/opinion-is-there-a-serious-sea-mine-threat-in-the-black-sea/

Posted by: Boo | Apr 18 2022 1:26 utc | 234

@222 Boo
How exactly can UK believably take ownership of anything? They’re a joke. Post Brexit they retain the trappings of a global player entirely at the pleasure of the US – otherwise EU would shut them down in short order. (yea nukes, that’s nice. France has nukes. North Korea has nukes…)
AFAICT, UK now has for the most part the same role as Poland – instrument of US military structure, reliable junior partner who is willing to supply some pasty kids in camouflage when a “coalition” is needed. Otherwise regarded by the US as disposable.
London finance is useful to some multinationals to provide a little bit of legal/liability firewall between US and global branches of certain multinationals. But IMO that too doesn’t create geopolitical significance beyond what the Swiss got.

Posted by: ptb | Apr 18 2022 1:29 utc | 236

More and more of the Kiev-regime’s troops are surrendering. They do not want to die for Uncle Sam. The war for them is now over.
See the video here:
https://www.bitchute.com/video/kG5dwNd9Kqlj/

Posted by: Nate | Apr 18 2022 1:32 utc | 238

psychohistorian #228

I am interested in barfly’s perception of Russia not seeming to enforce its ultimatum on the captured in Mariupol. Its above my pay grade and I am not sure what to think. Maybe another 24/48 hours will provide clarity to us armchair/ standing in my case, Strategists.

My take is that this is a risk management game of high stakes. Putting a big bomber up to hit this one target is challenging in these times of unexpected surprises. If there is to be a bomber run then it may be worth having a handful or more of targets.
Secondly, there could be some discussions taking place and some delicate trade may be in the ring for negotiation. If there are bio scientists or nato generals or MI6 killers among them then there is room for barter. The Russians can barter as good as most imo.
Third, the occupants of the labyrinth are not leaving or slipping away (I guess). They are likely tightly held in place by a series of snipers and other deterrents. Perhaps the force needed to detain them is now quite small given the terrain and comparative fire power.
I would think that Russia will enforce its ultimatum but their thinking often leaves me to conclude that they dither. I simply challenge my interpretation and wait patiently to see what is achieved (Lavrov is a mentor in this). Perhaps they do dither but then they do seem to have trapped the UKUSA and the Ukraine nazis for now. Time will tell.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 18 2022 1:36 utc | 240

Posted by: CharlesLutherThanos | Apr 18 2022 1:26 utc | 233
Richard,
there are bunch of posts below the links I sent, comparing parts of the ship before/after:
https://t.me/RVvoenkor/8447
https://t.me/RVvoenkor/8448
Moreover, it’s true that the SoS signal attracted a turkish commercial ship nearby. That’s where the photos were made and shared according to the mil.-cors.
When I linked a post from major & general in the begining of this topic on this thread, he said that it’s very unlikely this to be fake (the guy is an ex-Russian mil. oficer – with degree from Harvard!), but at the time I was leaning towards fake since only one channel was reporting it, so I went along with your initial assesment. Later some more channels started showing it up as well, not everyone, but it’s very early morning in Russia so a lot of them are asleep.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 18 2022 1:45 utc | 242

psychohistorian #239
SLAC, indeed 😉
You have prompted me to read it again over a coffee. Back soon.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 18 2022 1:47 utc | 244

Of course, could be fake, so large grain of salt…
Posted by: Boo | Apr 17 2022 23:05 utc | 190
That’s definitely a Slava class, so it is the Moskva.

Posted by: Peter Williams | Apr 18 2022 1:55 utc | 246

@ uncle tungsten 241
I agree that scuttling it after towing it to an appropriate spot and after removing important equipment makes sense. Also Mercouris made a point about lack of port facilities to harbor her without being burdensome on other activities.
On a side note, I met lots of earthworms while planting spring crops for home garden. They love it here much to our benefit.

Posted by: suzan | Apr 18 2022 1:57 utc | 248

@ Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 17 2022 18:41 utc | 88
do a search of moa back to around feb 24th date.. b was covering the info you are asking for and gave it in some links in a post back around this time frame…
DakotaRog | Apr 17 2022 18:53 utc | 91
thanks… sounds like a lovely part of the usa..
@ juliania | Apr 17 2022 22:31 utc | 180 / @ I’mmaculate deceptio | Apr 18 2022 0:08 utc | 206 / Anne B | Apr 18 2022 0:58 utc | 220
thanks..

Posted by: james | Apr 18 2022 2:02 utc | 250

Posted by: Paul | Apr 18 2022 1:30 utc | 235
ИААЗ, ИРБИТСКИЙ АВТОАГРЕГАТНЫЙ ЗАВОД, IRBIT AUTO AGGREGATE FACTORY, used to make field kitchens for the Russian Army prior to their bankruptcy. I don’t know who makes them now.

Posted by: Peter Williams | Apr 18 2022 2:12 utc | 252

Perhaps they did. It doesn’t necessarily follow that taking Lira out was a priority. Consider, after all, the size and influence of his audience.
Posted by: malenkov | Apr 17 2022 23:31 utc | 199
Apologies for the way I worded it, that’s what I intended to say, that if they wanted him dead he already would be, so he is probably ok. I can’t take too much of his rambling but I certainly don’t wish him dead.

Posted by: K | Apr 18 2022 2:19 utc | 254

Old hippie #63.
Sorry, but what does priming the underside of the porch mean?

Posted by: Brother Ma | Apr 18 2022 2:31 utc | 256

Posted by: Boo | Apr 18 2022 1:45 utc | 240
“there are bunch of posts below the links I sent, comparing parts of the ship before/after:”
And all they compare are the obvious parts of the ship. I already said it looks like they took a shot of the real ship then obscured the front with smoke.
When I see an official picture from the MoD which looks like this, I’ll accept it. Until then, it’s fake. And the MoD should have pictures since they would want to have a visual record and surely someone on the tow and rescue ships took pics. Whether they’ll be allowed to release them is another matter.
Best we can do is chalk this one up to “possible”. Maybe not an “obvious fake”, but without the launch tubes being visible enough to prove they’re there, it’s not good enough. And even then, it could still be a fake. A *real* picture is one from a legitimate source. Whether we’ll ever see one is problematic.

Posted by: CharlesLutherThanos | Apr 18 2022 2:47 utc | 258

Walt RE:251,
Not sure where your house was back in the 1950s, but here in Northern rural Ontario the moths still rule at night, when I leave the light on after dark the windows are covered in moths and insects (and more than a few plump spiders!). sometimes I look out the window and watch the old streetlights and see dozens of moths swarming over them and bats occasionally sweeping in to grab a few snacks on the wing.

Posted by: Kadath | Apr 18 2022 3:04 utc | 260

Posted by: james | Apr 18 2022 2:02 utc | 248
Thanks for the tip. I’ll check.
To everyone else, if the corporate media and UKUS gov’ts get their way it’s shaping up to be a hot and cloudy summer.
And by that I mean 10 million degrees and mushroom clouds.
Hope y’all had a happy Easter.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 18 2022 3:21 utc | 262

@ Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 18 2022 3:21 utc | 260
here is the post i was thinking of.. let me know if this info is what you were looking for..
Ukraine – Who Is Firing At Whom And Who Is Lying About It?

Posted by: james | Apr 18 2022 3:26 utc | 264

@Kadath, I grew up in Northern Ontario. It really is God’s country. I think Finland and Northern Russia must look a lot like that.
I grew up with Russians, Finns, Serbians, Croatians, Ukrainians, Poles, Germans, French Canadians, First Nations…. the only group that stayed isolated from others were the Italians.
The nice Croatian lady who gave us homemade popsicles in the summer had CSIS agents at her funeral. She had been under surveillance for years because she was a fanatic about Croatian independence, and even though she died after Croatia got its independence, they continued surveilling her. Her husband always showed us the bullet he had right under his skin, fighting with Tito and his partisans during WW2.
Of course, they didn’t get along with the Serbs who lived next door, and I felt sorry for the kid who was half Serbian and half Croatian. He never knew who he should play with.
Every community’s crowning achievement occurred when they were able to finance the building of their own church. Now, they can’t find priests to serve in these churches, so there are Philippinos and Africans for the Catholics, even the Poles. Not sure what the Orthodox do…

Posted by: Manage without me | Apr 18 2022 3:30 utc | 266

@ CharlesLutherThanos 257
just collapse the above ground structures
According to the allegations, there is a secret NATO facility PIT-404- and a secret biolaboratory with biological weapons. In the PIT-404 facility, foreign officers are blocked, it is claimed. The tunnels are equipped with a system of bunkers with armored protection. There are about 240 foreigners inside, including officers from NATO and the French Foreign Legion, as well as staff from the biolab. Their guard, funded by Akhmetov, numbers up to 3.000 people. . . Below the Azovstal industrial zone there are 24 km of tunnels at a depth of up to 30 meters. . .here
A major consideration here is food and water, how much do they have, and are they being resupplied somehow..

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 18 2022 3:45 utc | 268

@ Arch Bungle | Apr 18 2022 3:47 utc | 267 who wrote
”
Unless the Azovstahl bunkers have a fully independent air generation system like submarine systems (very unlikely).
”
Actually, given the presence of the biolab, part of the bunker may have its own independent air generation system.
I keep reading that water and food are issues and 3 days w/o water will take out most humans so maybe its a matter of water/food starvation….gack!
I also think that military structures break down in situations like this and it may only be a matter of time before some fragging occurs.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 18 2022 3:58 utc | 270

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 18 2022 3:58 utc | 268

Actually, given the presence of the biolab, part of the bunker may have its own independent air generation system.

Likely, but if those systems can sustain that many people it would be an indicator of a truly massive biolab complex there – science fiction stuff!

I also think that military structures break down in situations like this and it may only be a matter of time before some fragging occurs.

I suspect that’s how this sad story will end – no need for bunker busters, just a week stewing in the toxic sauces of Human Nature.
It’s going to be mercenaries against Azovis against UAF against MI6 – Battle Royale, Slavic Edition!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0p1t-dC7Ko

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 18 2022 4:10 utc | 272

These days MoA threads are huge!, congrats, b, you did become mainstream, hell yeah!!

@ Bea 7
Bea, I respect your attempts to provide some context to these misled demonstrators. I share your despair at the success of this truly global psyop. Other MOA commenters have expressed (quite eloquently), the feeling of being a stranger in a strange land during this stunning display of information full spectrum dominance. Don’t let it get you too down. The empire has wildly overplayed their hand this time. […]
Posted by: Boomhauer | Apr 17 2022 14:52 utc | 27

(my emphasis, what a great reference, Boomhauer)
The despair is insanely real, Bea, and if I may offer, this piece of evidence is quite good. Someone mentioned it here, in a recent thread and I went for the sources. In November, 2020, the United Nations voted on the “Combating glorification of Nazism”.
Can you tell which 2 countries voted against?, well, yes, USA and Ukraine.
And which countries abstained?, well, yes, all Europe and similar vassals.
https://www.un.org/en/ga/third/75/docs/voting_sheets/L.49.pdf
https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/LTD/N20/300/01/PDF/N2030001.pdf?OpenElement

UN (GENERAL ASSEMBLY HALL)
Third Committee: 75th Session
Vote Name:
Item 70 (a) draft resolution A/C.3/75/L.49
Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fueling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance
Yes | No | Abstain
122 | 2 | 53

Hoping the gods have mercy on our souls.

Posted by: rrramirezzz | Apr 18 2022 4:21 utc | 274

“Unless the Azovstahl bunkers have a fully independent air generation system like submarine systems (very unlikely).”
If they were hardened for whatever reason (including basic safety in the event of accident/explosion etc.) then I’d say it was quite likely.
To my mind the big issue with these guys down there is if they are not taken out they can possibly wreak considerable damage in Mariupol in as yet to be revealed ways, possibly with very large munitions or bioweapons.
Quite likely the Chechens are going to have to go in and flush them out and it’s going to be a really costly operation.

Posted by: Scorpion | Apr 18 2022 4:28 utc | 276

Posted by: Boo | Apr 18 2022 1:05 utc | 222

I dont see what Russia can do at the moment to start fires on her own short of getting close to one of the 800 US bases and, thus, igniting a direct confrontation, but as you say it’s time to find non-trivial solutions.

The method would be indirect, via proxies. So Russia would work on stimulating the creation of anti-Western groups, perhaps by funding and strengthening local resistance groups in the middle east, Central Asia, Africa and even South America and then providing all the indirect support possible with the maximum level of plausible deniability.
I expect the FSB would be specialist in this kind of activity.
This is basically the same game the US/UK has been playing for decades. Yes, it has it’s risks, but …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 18 2022 4:35 utc | 278

Charles #140 re: changing out an engine in 8 hours
Back in the day I attended an open house at the German training facility in Shilo, Manitoba. In one of the demonstrations they changed out an engine of a Leopard (or Tiger, can’t recall) panzer in about 20 minutes.
The highlight of the day though was the fabulous bohnensuppe that was served for lunch. In no time at all I was rapturously farting Deutschland Uber Alles – just another one of Germany’s Wunderwaffen. This does not work with borscht, unfortunately for Russia.

Posted by: The Bear | Apr 18 2022 4:40 utc | 280

Just found out, GOR is Government of Russia.

Posted by: rrramirezzz | Apr 18 2022 4:45 utc | 282

#144 In my dreams Nuland is caught by the Russians. Consequently, she is used as a research test study for the biological materials used in the Ukraine labs.
Well ,the Americans were at pains to tell us that they were all safe materials used for standard medical trials , right? Things that could just as easily have been done in the USA, but they conveniently didn’t ,right?

Posted by: Brother Ma | Apr 18 2022 4:57 utc | 284

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 18 2022 4:35 utc | 276
I would think the most natural place to instigate this would be Syria and Iraq, both of which countries the US is occupying illegally and neither of which the domestic populace of the US is going to want to sacrifice American soldiers lives for. Two or three successful attacks with casualties on bases in either locale would quickly become a domestic crisis for Biden admin and might leave to US having to pull out of one or both countries.

Posted by: WJ | Apr 18 2022 4:59 utc | 286

indian punchline – Battle for Mariupol is ending
from the article – perhaps this has been repeated here before.. apologies if so –
Arguably, the sinking of the warship Moskva fits into this paradigm. Russian analysts estimate that the last week’s missile strike on the Russian flag ship Moskva was actually masterminded and coordinated by the Pentagon. According to the ADS-B Exchange flight tracking site, a US Navy plane with electronic gear was spotted near the village of Zhurilovka in eastern Romania in the vicinity of the stricken ship Moskva (which probably guided the missile attacks.) Read here and here.

Posted by: james | Apr 18 2022 5:02 utc | 288

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 18 2022 3:45 utc | 266
“A major consideration here is food and water, how much do they have, and are they being resupplied somehow..”
Well, if they can’t ever come up on the surface, who cares? That’s my point. Bury them and call it a day. They’ll run out at some point.
Look, this was built during the Soviet Union. The Russians almost certainly know everything about it except possible any construction done by the Ukrainians since 1990. Whatever they don’t know they can find out with ground penetrating radar. Unless there’s a tunnel miles outside the perimeter – in which case they would already be gone, obviously – there’s no way they can escape.
Bomb it and forget about it. No one cares about the alleged “Pit” for which there is zero evidence. Once it’s destroyed, it’s done. If there is any evidence of such experiments, it will come to light at some point – even if only when the plant is rebuilt. Getting some propaganda evidence isn’t worth slowing down the operation.
But, of course, I’m not commanding the operation. So we’ll see.

Posted by: CharlesLutherThanos | Apr 18 2022 5:20 utc | 290

@ CharlesLutherThanos | Apr 18 2022 5:15 utc | 287
thanks for explaining that….

Posted by: james | Apr 18 2022 5:22 utc | 292

Arch Bungle | Apr 18 2022 4:19 utc | 271
“It’s very clear to me that the intelligence value of whoever is in those bunkers far outweighs anything that can be gained by destroying them.”
I doubt there’s any real intelligence value. (As opposed to the endless rabbit-holes of fake “value” in the minds of incorrigible dwellers in the upper-dimensional realms of chess-playing; meanwhile in reality Russia has the physical power quickly to complete the conquest of the entire Ukraine as soon as the political leadership chooses to stop screwing around and get serious.)
What can be gained by destroying them (or just letting them starve while carrying out the bombing as per the ultimatum) is to cut loose superfluous concerns and get serious about the real war goals.
“There is literally zero value in killing the holdouts in Azovstahl”
It would forestall the political leadership from letting them go in exchange for nothing, which I still consider all too likely.
uncle tungsten | Apr 18 2022 4:50 utc | 281
“Plus keep the ball in the air with an occasional ultimatum to set the contrast on Zelensky as a powerless twat.”
How does issuing ultimatums one doesn’t follow through upon set up any such contrast? Seems to me to do the opposite.

Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Apr 18 2022 5:59 utc | 294

Also, let’s recall that the Russians claim they intercepted radio traffic between the Azovstahl soldiers and Kiev asking for permission to surrender. The Russians claim that the Ukrainians specifically stated they were low on food and water. If that’s true, then there is no evidence that they have any huge stocks of such, which also makes it unlikely that these subbasements are currently functioning bomb shelters that are fully stocked. Which wouldn’t be a surprise, given Ukraine’s corruption – probably all such supplies were sold off on the black market decades ago.
Bury them, call it a day. The only question is how long it will take to collapse the above ground structures in such a huge place, although much of that place is open ground with various industrial structures on it, based on the drone footage I’ve seen. I haven’t seen a close up of the actual steel plant buildings by drone yet, except for one large overview aerial map. Since I’m useless at analyzing such photos, I can’t determine how many actual buildings need to be destroyed.

Posted by: CharlesLutherThanos | Apr 18 2022 6:14 utc | 296

Posted by: Paul | Apr 18 2022 6:11 utc | 293
“There is no military value in some more dead bodies.”
A lot of value in dead Nazis. There is also value in getting on with it. Russia does not have unlimited time for this war. Spending another month waiting around for these clowns to surrender just for some “intelligence” for which again there is zero evidence makes no sense.
But again, we’ll see.

Posted by: CharlesLutherThanos | Apr 18 2022 6:17 utc | 298

I read they were possibly going to fill it with Mariupol sewage. Thats good enough for the Azov gang.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 18 2022 0:57 utc | 219
That, imho, is a genius idea in several aspects. It’s a psychological attack that does not cost too many, if any, lives in the first place. After some hours or days, it will be a major nuisance for those guys in the cellar. And, as the western media is preparing their ‘chemical weapons’ story for a long time now, they could finally have it published massively: investigations about chemical attack – OSCE says mercs flooded in shit, but ukrainian heroes do not give up just yet and will hang out in the sewer to the last man. What a nice story for everyone in the evening news!

Posted by: Grasdackel | Apr 18 2022 6:36 utc | 300