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April 17, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-50

Only news & views related to the Ukraine conflict ...

Posted by b on April 17, 2022 at 12:41 UTC | Permalink

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Larry Johnson:

Russia Continues to Grind Down the Ukrainian military and Fuel resources

Posted by: b | Apr 17 2022 12:43 utc | 1

The Azovstal "defenders" were given one last change to surrender this morning, a 5 hour window. Olodomyr Elensky refused permission for them to surrender, and now Azovstal is getting bombed by Tu22s.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Apr 17 2022 12:57 utc | 2

Masks Off, Our Propagandists Admit the Truth
Happy Easter! There’s a huge battle taking off in Donbass, and NATO propaganda has begrudgingly acknowledged it. Why the sudden fit of honesty? We should be worried.

Posted by: Ian Kummer | Apr 17 2022 13:04 utc | 3

For US weapons manufacturers, Ukraine is the new Afghanistan, only better. They can charge full retail for sub-par weapons that will be destroyed before possible use. I wouldn't be surprised if the US/NATO lets the Russians know about the shipments to guarantee that their Mil-Crap never gets to be unboxed.

Posted by: Eric Blair | Apr 17 2022 13:08 utc | 4

The refusal by the Ukrainian Government to let its own soldiers surrender and live from Azovstal, showed its true evil nature. It is against any humane practice of a normal government, a timely yard stick to measure the morality of Western Mass News Media. (With their deafening silence, they can't run and hide this time)

Posted by: KitaySupporter | Apr 17 2022 13:09 utc | 5

The False Gods of a Godless Empire

Washington has long practiced the art of radicalizing other cultures, turning them into disposable human weapons, and have become exceptionally good at it. Let’s talk about Ukraine’s ISIS-style propaganda video that emerged earlier this week.

That’s what globalism and global nazism are all about. Analysts in Washington study a culture and find its most primal, barbaric roots, and create a cartoonish caricature of it. With that caricature as a false god, that whole society is turned into a death cult, the perfect, self-destructing weapon against Washington’s rivals. The suicidal nature of Washington’s pawns is deliberate. After Russia is destroyed, there would be no use for a Ukraine anymore, so it is actually better for Ukraine to be destroyed in the process too. Ukraine is the broken skull for Russia to cut her foot on.

Posted by: Ian Kummer | Apr 17 2022 13:11 utc | 6

Well I just had a run in in the park. There were "peace" activists collecting for refugees with a big blue and yellow banner saying "NATO Help us". As i walked past I overheard their grab line: "stop the genocide in Ukraine". Already worked up by their sign asking for WW3, I couldn't help but challenge that. To which every person nearby (activists and the public) turned their heads and said "it is genocide" some with emphatic nodding, which truly brought their mindlessness home. One person tried to engage, he soon came up with the "denying Ukrainians agency" line. And later accused me of "Orientalism", when I said something about libya that was very much the opposite. It didnt take long until he bounded off to the safety of the group and started pointing at me and screaming "genocide denier" for saying of all things that there was never any evidence for the viagra rape story.. he didn't know what r2p was; he didn't know who the osce are; Donbas is part of Ukraine so none of Russia's business; in Ukraine for him everything started 24/2/2022. I made a closing speech: it is good they are raising money for refugees, but horrifying to see good people calling for ww3; then a few other things I can't quite remember. Exhausted, what a shit time to actually give fuck.

Posted by: Bea | Apr 17 2022 13:40 utc | 7

@KittySupporter i do dissagree with your assessment that this "shows its true evil nature." A small knowledge of ww2 shows that orders to " hold at all costs" " Not one step back" ect were necessary for the Red Armys eventual victory, and did not show the Soviet true evil nature either.

Posted by: Mark | Apr 17 2022 13:43 utc | 8

“Given the potential desperation of President Putin and the Russian leadership, given the setbacks that they’ve faced so far, militarily, none of us can take lightly the threat posed by a potential resort to tactical nuclear weapons or low-yield nuclear weapons,” CIA Director Willuam Burns

That the UAF face ultimate military defeat by Russia using conventional arms is well understood by people like William Burns. Yet here he is pushing this propaganda in the NYT. What this says, IMO, is the stage being set for a last ditch false flag operation to finally convince anyone still sitting on the fence that Putin is truly the devil incarnate.

The evil empire will stop at nothing to destroy Putin and Russia.

Posted by: Krypton | Apr 17 2022 13:57 utc | 9

Mark | Apr 17 2022 13:43 utc | 8

No comparison possible: in Azovstahl they are trapped like rats and nothing they can do will change the outcome of the war.

Posted by: Olivier | Apr 17 2022 14:00 utc | 10

Posted by: Bea | Apr 17 2022 13:40 utc | 7

Apparently this guy is a hypocrite since he has no concern about the Ukrainians shelling Donbass. To him "some people are more equal than others."

Posted by: Quiet Rebel | Apr 17 2022 14:01 utc | 11

Posted by: Krypton | Apr 17 2022 13:57 utc | 9

Incredible! Do they believe their own propaganda?

Fact: Russia is winning. The only question is: how many own casualties will Russia accept to spare non-nazis ukrainians?
When Russia will think it is enough, then carpet bombings with the white swans will begin, and bye bye the uk army.

Posted by: Olivier | Apr 17 2022 14:07 utc | 12

One serious question: is depleted uranium used by anyone like in Yugoslavia and Irak?

Posted by: Olivier | Apr 17 2022 14:10 utc | 13

Exhausted, what a shit time to actually give fuck.

Posted by: Bea | Apr 17 2022 13:40 utc | 7

That sums it all up.

Posted by: Lex | Apr 17 2022 14:16 utc | 14

DU is used to penetrate tank armour because of its density

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Apr 17 2022 14:16 utc | 15

b, that Larry Johnson link is encouraging.

Posted by: annie | Apr 17 2022 14:17 utc | 16

@Olivier, they are holding Russian troops from moving north. Buying time.

Posted by: Mark | Apr 17 2022 14:19 utc | 17

Within 2-3 hours of Russia's launch of the SMO, Belgrade and Sarajevo media outlets began, as if on-cue, a solid barrage of pro and anti Russian propaganda, that was followed thereafter by a host of 90's has-been Bosnian politicians and academics stating to the effect "Bosnia must join NATO and or the EU before Dodik gets Putin's recognition of Republic Serbska, bla, bla, bla." A freshly arrived EUFOR force last month of 1,000 finally prompted my family and I to leave Sarajevo after two years there and IMO, that region has enough brainless hotheads for outside influencers to ramp up part 2 of what "paused" with the Dayton Accords of 1995...

Posted by: ERing46Z | Apr 17 2022 14:30 utc | 18


Buying time for what? There is no possible way Ukraine can win this conflict, unless NATO intervenes directly but even then NATO is in no condition to fight a war right (ignore the BS, Nato has no heavy armoured divisions to fight Russia with, only light infantry - ie they will be quickly ground down) the Ukraine regime is literally throwinv away the lives of their troops for nothing

Posted by: Kadath | Apr 17 2022 14:32 utc | 19

Bea, Great that you issued a challenge and pitched it correctly. Unfortunately, brainwashing is just that. Here in the UK we've lost any ability to think critically. Genocide is what happened in Rwanda, what the Israeli Govt is doing to the Palestinians, what happened in Libya and Iraq but people just don't want to know. Russia, for me any way, is fighting what i would call a 'decent' war. If loss of life can be avoided then it should be and they are striving hard to minimise that. Azovstal basement rats had an opportunity to surrender this morning. They could have ignored Zelensky who quite frankly, isn't worth fighting for or dying for. There is very little wriggle room for the West and the USA now. The truth is slowly starting to emerge and it will very soon, flood out. Once the RF Army gets this, which it will in the next hour, then they will fly and we'll see much more rapid movement from here on in. This blood is on Zelensky's hands and his only. He's not in the Ukraine, he's not hands on and he should be taking advice from his Generals who know the UAF is on its knees and won't survive this. Right now, if I were the Commander of the UAF I would declare a military coup, take over the Govt, arrest Zelensky as a traitor and surrender the UAF to the Russians and start to rebuild proper relationships with Russia to start to sort this mess out and salvage what it can of the Ukraine economy (IMF or World Bank I cannot remember which) said it's GDP is about to drop to 45%. No country can survive that and expect an incumbent Govt to survive.

Posted by: Jo Dominich | Apr 17 2022 14:33 utc | 20

I believe that Kyiv wants to force Russia to use chemical weapons to evict the underground combatants, something they could then crow about.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 17 2022 14:40 utc | 21

Re: #7 Bea

I would just ignore 'em in future. You can't argue with an idiot, therefore, you ain't a hope in hell of arguing with a swarm of 'em!

Posted by: Mongo | Apr 17 2022 14:42 utc | 22

@Kadath thankyou for your crystal ball reading. Since the outcome of the war is preordaned i will leave for other things

Posted by: Mark | Apr 17 2022 14:44 utc | 23

FWIW I am a practicing Catholic but I do believe Pope Francis has got this very very wrong indeed. He should not be making any comments at all about this as he has not done so about Israel in Palestine, USA atrocities and genocide, UK atrocities and genocide. Putin is quite clearly a man of God and has a deep Faith (Russian Orthodox). I strongly believe, at the risk of sounding stupid, that he is going to be the World's Saviour on this. God save us from the Rules based Unipolar World Order that will impose slavery and surveillance on all citizens in the world. God Bless President Putin and Xi Ping in China. They are the tellers of the truth and upholders of common human decency. I long to live in a World in which all these USA/UK started Wars are no more and we can live in peace with our fellow citizens around the world. This is a fight between the most deep-rooted evil and the good. The good will prevail. Apart from Orban in Hungary, is there any other President or Politician in the West that is willing to stand on the side of right (and that is not the Ukraine or Zelensky) and put an end to this deep hatred held against Russia and China. I sincerely hope the French chose Le Pen over Macron especially as Zelensky has clearly stated Macron is a close friend and they tweet numerous times a day. Please France, start the revolution in the West. We will follow.

Posted by: Jo Dominich | Apr 17 2022 14:46 utc | 24


Video surfaces of American sniper suffers fatal wound from Russia in Mariupol Ukraine.

Posted by: Dean Oneil | Apr 17 2022 14:49 utc | 25

Highly recommended, University of Oregon Prof John Bellamy Foster, on the nuclear politics of the proxy war in Ukraine, showing how the US doctrine of nuclear counterforce and primacy is the taproot of the conflict and threatens all life on earth.

Posted by: Wilbur | Apr 17 2022 14:51 utc | 26

@ Bea 7

Bea, I respect your attempts to provide some context to these misled demonstrators. I share your despair at the success of this truly global psyop. Other MOA commenters have expressed (quite eloquently), the feeling of being a stranger in a strange land during this stunning display of information full spectrum dominance. Don't let it get you too down. The empire has wildly overplayed their hand this time. Let's hope that the world (and the population of the EU) get this message before things get "nukular". Thank you for again for trying with the low-information voters.

Posted by: Boomhauer | Apr 17 2022 14:52 utc | 27

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 17 2022 14:40 utc | 21

I believe that Kyiv wants to force Russia to use chemical weapons to evict the underground combatants ...

I've never been able to understand why the Empire has been making so much noise about chemical weapons use by Russia.
It's not as if they can bomb Russia into submission while they rush Scott Ritter in to do a forensic investigation.

They might get a brief propaganda rush out of, a tiny blip on the media feed for a week at most, but that's all.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 17 2022 14:53 utc | 28

Posted by: Bea | Apr 17 2022 13:40 utc | 7

The level of lying today is relentless. I still see people wearing masks which tells me only one thing, lying works.

So lets see how this worked in the Past because we might think that people were more resistant to it then. When Germany entered Poland in 1939 they captured documents of the Polish Foreign Ministry in Warsaw. From these documents they put together what they called ,

"Polnische dokumente zur vorgeschichte des krieges
Auswärtiges Amt. Germany, Jan 1940"

They were to show that it was not Germany's fault for the start of the war. Look for the section "Sixth Document" to see what the Polish ambassador observed in the US leading up to WW II.

"Report of the Polish Ambassador in Washington Count Jerzy Potocki to Polish Foreign Minister in Warsaw dated Washington January 12 1939 concerning the domestic situation in United States"

Change the names and we will have Potocki reporting on what is happening in the US in 2022. This is history, pure and simple.

The funniest part is this,

"It is interesting to note that in this extremely well planned campaign which is conducted above all against National Socialism Soviet Russia is almost completely eliminated. Soviet Russia if mentioned at all is mentioned in a friendly manner and things are presented in such a way that it would seem that the Soviet Union were cooperating with the bloc of democratic states. Thanks to the clever propaganda the sympathies of the American public are completely on the side of Red Spain.

This propaganda, this war psychosis is being artificially created. The American people are told that peace in Europe is hanging only by a thread and that war is inevitable. At the same time the American people are unequivocally told that in case of a world war, America also must take an active part in order to defend the slogans of liberty and democracy in the world. President Roosevelt was the first one to express hatred against Fascism. In doing so he was serving a double purpose first he wanted to divert the attention of the American people from difficult and intricate domestic problems especially from the problem of the struggle between capital and labor. Second by creating a war psychosis and by spreading rumors concerning dangers threatening Europe, he wanted to induce the American people to accept an enormous armament program which far exceeds United States defense requirements."

Same ol' script to push the Sheep over the cliff used then is used Today.

Posted by: Tom_12 | Apr 17 2022 14:56 utc | 29

EU High Representative Joseph Borell has an interesting mindset.

Borell: " I also want to stress that Ukraine, like any other country in the world, is entitled to, and free to, choose its political or security alliances and partnerships."

Lavrov: "As Josep Borrell told me, ‘Better not work in Africa, because that place is ours’. That is exactly what he said"

Posted by: Passerby | Apr 17 2022 14:59 utc | 30

JoD@20..The Ukrainian army would have to fight it's way through neo nazis all the way to the Polish border, then they'd have to send search teams in to Poland to find him. btw, 'if you were a UAF commander', all reg force Ukraine military command structure has been purged by NATO over the past eight years. Replaced with neo nazi fascism. No reg force commander, with his men out of food, ammo, and many in triage would ever command his men to fight to the death(unless it's a Japanese enemy, then you have no choice).....fix bayonets! Wait, my mistake, there are literally dozens of English military commanders that excel at sending enlisted men to their death....that's how they get promoted.


Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Apr 17 2022 15:00 utc | 31

Passerby (30)

Bordell is supposedly Spanish-Argentine and is ignorant of the Monroe Doctrine 1823 for some strange reason

Being a Russophobe dulls the intellect

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Apr 17 2022 15:10 utc | 32

Don Bacon @21


After these Neo-Nazi are smashed in Azovstal, Kiev and MSM will cry out this is a "genocide", what a "war criminal" Putin is, how "barbaric" Russian army is...... When the manufacured consent reachs certain emotional level, US/NATO will announce they have to use nuclear weapon to eliminate Russia/n and Putin.

War is the always their favorite tools.

Posted by: lulu | Apr 17 2022 15:13 utc | 33

@25 Dean Oneil
re: US passports in mariupul

fyi one of these is someone who was, or claims he was, there for a sad child-custody case. US guy married to Ukrainian-Russian. split up, she leaves with kid, back to Mariupol. Guy goes to either visit or try to take his kid at some point. Unclear what happens next (hostage? volunteer? pressed into service? was a US serviceman all along?) but anyway he died there.

Posted by: ptb | Apr 17 2022 15:13 utc | 34

Left over from April 16 Open Thread on Ukraine

@ hoggy 153, Tom_Q_Collins 154, james 157

hoggy- thanks for the link of the NASA et al. researchers Nature_Food (why journals think its cool to have their name in lower case nowadays is beyond me)article. I'll have my librarian get a copy for me this coming week. I didn't recognize any of the author names, that doesn't necessarily mean anything, just stating a fact. Looking at the 2070 map link you provided, it appears that the U.S. interests would have an easier time taking over Argentina and control of the Pampas than taking over the black soils of Ukraine and south Russia. It looks like the Pampas gets even cooler so probably back to more small grains than soybeans and corn.

Just a statement on higher end peer reviewed journals. A lot of people probably know this already but the reason why they stay "high impact" is that they only send a small fraction-- I heard Science its 8%--of the submitted manuscripts out for review. Thus a cycle of "wow, to get into [fill in the blank high end journal] is a really big deal so I need to try" and thus a self-feeding system is maintained. Another reason for these journals to be considered so impactful is that deal with "exciting" topics so more plain vanilla but still good articles tend not to be picked for review. A quick personal example, I was the lead author on a semi-national land use/land cover paper recently and it took submissions to 5 journals to get published. I had some younger co-authors who wanted to "swing for the fences" so we tried PNAS (U.S. National Academy of Sciences) and 2 Nature journal venues and all 3 declined to send the manuscript out for review. It got reviewed with an Elsevier journal but that ended by imploding because I guess I pissed off the editor for challenging a couple of the reviewer comments (their issue was not really on the "correctness" of the work, more on the concept that was it "novel" enough). We finally got the article published in a Swiss-Chinese journal that sends everything out for review. Nothing substantially changed in the manuscript from submission #1 through #5 except we strengthened why we thought it was "novel" enough to get published. Peer review is a good system but like anything else its a human construct with all the potential weaknesses that come with people.

One thing to consider in all of these is that the basic growing large extensive area crops is an old model, even large-scale mechanical production is at least 150 years old or more so a question that I seldom see asked, "is this is the way it has to be?" People can be mostly self-sufficient for food on small parcels of land if enough intensification and management is practiced. But "we" don't want most of the people of the world to spend a lot of time producing or networking for their own food so "we" practice a model of large-area extensive agricultural in most regions of the globe, at least the "developed" and "mostly developed" countries. This model is efficient in producing lots of fairly cheap end-use food products but various other intensive land uses could probably produce sufficient nutrition for global population, even under changed climatic conditions. Most people in countries with money simply don't want to think too hard in their ability to buy food so we use the present production model. Agriculture is just as much of a socioeconomic construct as it is a biophysical one. We could grow greenhouse tomatoes in Thule, Greenland but we choose not to because nobody is willing to pay that cost per pound for that product.

Thus, I think by using our brain power more in being adaptive to changing climate conditions and ask ourselves if we really need 90+ million acres of maize grown in the USA or not---wheat by the way is now number #3 in total area cropped in the USA, now on about the same level as all hay crop acreage, corn and soybeans go back and forth being #1 in acreage planted. Of course, who is the current power establishment championing through the likes of RAND studies; the old school model fucks such as Cargill, Dreyfus, ADM, and such or the true needs of common people?? But we know that answer already. Maybe things will change...

Posted by: DakotaRog | Apr 17 2022 15:22 utc | 35

----@KittySupporter i do dissagree with your assessment that this "shows its true evil nature." A small knowledge of ww2 shows that orders to " hold at all costs" " Not one step back" ect were necessary for the Red Armys eventual victory, and did not show the Soviet true evil nature either.

Posted by: Mark | Apr 17 2022 13:43 utc | 8

Is a small knowledge of ww2, relevant for what Kitty sees at this moment? I don't think so. By the way, what you believe as knowledge I know as myths.

Posted by: Anne B | Apr 17 2022 15:30 utc | 36

Posted by: Melaleuca | Apr 17 2022 15:13 utc | 35

The ship sinking doesn't appear to have the four angled missile launchers along the side.

Posted by: laguerre | Apr 17 2022 15:33 utc | 37

---@Olivier, they are holding Russian troops from moving north. Buying time.

Posted by: Mark | Apr 17 2022 14:19 utc | 17

That will certainly inspire the Ukranian army, holed up in their trenches. To know they have to starve another week, while their buddies are being sacrificed in order to stall the inevitable.

Posted by: Anne B | Apr 17 2022 15:37 utc | 38

Gonzalo Lira hasn't posted on various social media platforms for 2 days which is unusual. He is supposed to be on MOAT with George Galloway later this afternoon. Let's hope he appears again. Otherwise, it would be a bad sign since internet still seems to be operating in Kharkov.

Posted by: v | Apr 17 2022 15:45 utc | 39

Blinken says Russia's Special Op will last 10 years, Zelensky echoes that Ukrainians are ready to fight Russia for 10 years, while he warns Russia is about to nuke him...

Meanwhile the tortoise plods to the finish line in a matter of mere months.

Posted by: gottlieb | Apr 17 2022 15:49 utc | 40

---Exhausted, what a shit time to actually give fuck.

Posted by: Bea | Apr 17 2022 13:40 utc |

For me it has been invigorating. I haven't been able to speak much about this until now. Now they have given me ample opportunity, to tell them a thing or two. But for me this war is first and foremost, spiritual.

Posted by: Anne B | Apr 17 2022 15:56 utc | 41

Posted by: Melaleuca | Apr 17 2022 15:13 utc | 35

Fake video. Two suggestions: 1. List your source. 2. Verify third-party posting before you re-post it. Otherwise, you are wasting everybody's time. See the real Mockba photo:

Posted by: KitaySupport | Apr 17 2022 15:57 utc | 42

Posted by: Tom_12 | Apr 17 2022 14:56 utc | 29

trying to make a point while beginning/ending with remarks indicating your lack of intellect is self-defeating. majority of posters here apparently serious people with serious concerns. Sticking to facts/factual comments will encourage others to read your post.

Posted by: Oso | Apr 17 2022 15:58 utc | 43

Jo Dominich (24).

The pope thinks the West is racist, one has to wonder why the UK is sending folk with coloured skin to Rwanda, but Ukrainians are being welcomed with open arms into the UK and all the trimmings that goes with that.

"Pope Francis says racism is behind the fact that many Western countries have been more welcoming to Ukrainian refugees than to those from other parts of the world.

Speaking on Italian television station RAI on Friday, the head of the Catholic Church said that kind of treatment evidently proved that "we are racists."

The pontiff stressed that the West also segregates the refugees based on their source of origin.

"The refugees are divided. First-class, second class, by skin color, whether you come from a developed country or a non-developed one," the head of the Catholic Church told RAI."

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 17 2022 16:01 utc | 44

@ bea

thanks for sharing your personal story... it strikes a note - a sad one, but a part of life in the world today....

@ DakotaRog | Apr 17 2022 15:22 utc | 36

i will stick with reading wendell berry who offers an alternative view to those being pushed by the likes of the multinational food corporations... we need to go small, as opposed to large... we need to work in the communities - the 100 mile radius concept and etc. etc... for me to get caught up in the nightmares projected by these multinational corps ain't worth it.... it is kind of like arguing with the folks that @bea was addressing earlier in the thread... ultimately it doesn't get much of anywhere as i see it... thanks for your post.. i might have skimmed off what i wanted to address and apologize skipping over what you might have wanted me to respond to!!

Posted by: james | Apr 17 2022 16:08 utc | 45


What? Tom’s post full of information. In fact glad it was pointed out by the follow up.

Posted by: Oldhippie | Apr 17 2022 16:08 utc | 46

the pope canonized a racist slavemaster junipero serra, what can be more racist that that? the hell with pope francis.

Posted by: Oso | Apr 17 2022 16:09 utc | 47

@Melaleuca | Apr 17 2022 15:13 utc | 35

Not Moskva, compare superstructure, rear helipad, foredeck ... and missing signature parallel quad inboard Vulkan missiles, port & starboard. Take note & compare stern at end of vid.

Compare to Russian cruiser Moskva 1 & Russian cruiser Moskva 2.

Ukie/Nazi fakes are prolific, puerile & amateurish.

Posted by: ArmsControlWonk | Apr 17 2022 16:16 utc | 48

All responders to my theory of what all this may be about, I want to express thanks.
We have to try and find a proper rationale for this debacle before we can hope to determine just how far the US and Russia will actually go and how likely World immolation really is. Mearsheimer says its "existential" for the Russians. With this, I agree. I believe there is a very high probability they will use nuclear if they seriously look like losing- they simply can't afford to. But Mearsheimer also says the US can't lose - WHY? This is not existential to them. Sure, their reputation would take a hit, but is it really likely they would commit suicide just for reputation. Do the Democrats want to hang on to the reins so desperately they will kill their children for it. I fully appreciate the ghost of Curtis E. Lemay stalks the Beltway, but in that Cabinet room they still have children and grandchildren. The US can afford to lose. They may not like it, but at least they know they can "live" with it. Unless there is a tribal madness so deep that self-destruction is better than loss of face, they must walk away if Russia prevails. I come back to my longer-term theory. Unless a strategic plan exists where failure to succeed becomes existential to the US, and Ukraine lies at the heart of that plan, the US will back down.
As I've stated, I believe the future capacity to grow food is central. That is existential. If the defeat of Russia is necessary to achieving access to that in the coming future, and defeating them in Ukraine is necessary to that, then all bets are off. But we still come back to this; - if it takes nuclear war for the US to win in Ukraine, what does it achieve if all the mouths to be fed in the US (and Europe, and China, and the Middle and Far East) are burned shut.
I believe the same basic things as Lawrence Wilkerson and Roger Hallam.
The question is; do the Washington war planners. Whatever they believe, I suspect they are far less out of touch than the awful, self-obsessed little snots in the Hallam video.

Posted by: hoggy | Apr 17 2022 16:22 utc | 49

...Occupiers report that on Monday they will not only finally close all entries and exits to the city for everyone, but will institute a ban on movement across all neighborhoods for a week. During this time, 100% of the city’s remaining male population will be “filtered’,” Petro Andriushchenko said in a Telegram post translated by Ukrainian news outlet Ukrayinska Pravda...

This is very interesting, b; thanks! It combines the military operation in Mariupol with the need for a transition phase during a time of reflection for many of the operating soldiers. (I am not leaving out Moslem practice in this.)

The Larry C. Johnson blogpost was also very interesting, with his assessment of the Ukrainian 'dog that is not barking' in Kharkov, and bravo, Bea @ 7. It is exhausting as you say, and doubly demoralizing when it is one's own family that does not appear to see. Past experience for me has been that even though our positions seem to be rejected, they are like the seeds that fall to the earth and die in the scriptural verse; they take root unknown to us, deep inside the darkness.

james @ 46, that is a perceptive point about Wendell Berry. Russia knows that the communist takeover and regimentation of agriculture did not succeed. Ultimately it was the small plot individual farmers who supplemented the food supply regime by continuing to grow individual gardens and market their produce -- and that will happen everywhere there are folk who tend their gardens as many are now doing. As I have said, for the first time I planted my snow peas in December, with window panes against a westfacing wall. I have never before succeeded with those; this time I did. They are thickly planted, (now with a shade cloth to protect from the sun.) I am thrilled; the flowering is producing little green shafts everywhere - success!

Posted by: juliania | Apr 17 2022 16:38 utc | 50

Happy Easter fellow Barflies.

There is a point on which, the MoD and I differ. Up to now, the heaviest damage has been concentrated on the separatist Republics. If, eventually, Ukraine is divided into two or more entities, the ones nearer Russia are going to be in the sphere of influence of the RF. Therefore their destruction serves the purposes of the Galicians and their mentors for they will be an economic burden on the RF for the next 20 years.

However, if the bombing, precision or carpet was directed towards the northwestern sector of Ukraine, the burden would be on Europe and the US, if they survive the eventual WW3.

It is in the interest of Russia to inflict damage on the real Ukrainian side. It will bring them to the negotiation table a lot sooner. Right now Zelensky and Company are relishing the poisonous gift they are reserving for the RF and the pro Russian populations of the Southeastern half of Crimea.

Posted by: CarlD | Apr 17 2022 16:39 utc | 51

hoggy et al

The global hegemon is in an existential crisis. Its power structure, based upon reserve-currency domination, usury and ubiquitous Orwellian narrative control and populations that believe in fairytales or don't give a damn, faces a collapse into its own footprint as 30+ trillion in debt, the end of sole reserve-currency status, and folks waking from their wokeness to see the little man in the booth working the buttons and levers of smoke and mirrors.

It is fight or flight time. Does anyone see the 'crazies in the basement' who have run US foreign policy in failure after failure, doubling down on crimes against humanity, and the pursuit of a 21st American Century, choosing to surrender?

Because that is the choice - concede a large part of Ukraine to Russia and guarantee NATO neutrality from current and contemplated Nato states or... what?

What about 'crazies in the basement' does anyone not understand?

Posted by: gottlieb | Apr 17 2022 16:39 utc | 52

Re Arch Bungle #28:
"I've never been able to understand why the Empire has been making so much noise about chemical weapons use by Russia."

Simply to deflect since they run biolabs all over the world and got caught recently with dozens in Ukraine some of which were researching how to target those with Slavic genes. The crooks are always accusing their victims of what they themselves are guilty of.

Posted by: Scorpion | Apr 17 2022 16:47 utc | 53

@hoggy #50: I will try to find specific references, but years ago I looked into bokashi fertilization/composting (before it became a commercial success) and remember reading that nearly all the high-yield rice prizes were going to farmers in India and South Korea using that or related methods.

One aspect (viz bokashi etc.) is home-grown fertilizer methods essentially using natural fermentation of grasses, yoghurts, urine and microorganisms from the air and soil. Cost almost nothing and far more effective than commercial products.

The second big advance has to do with how to plant, namely waiting much longer before planting and then planting in larger clumps versus one seedling/shoot at a time. The yields increased considerably due to this improvement alone. They beat Monsanto and other big ag growers hands down every time.

We could easily feed 70 billion people. What is needed is a political revolution. I read somewhere that after the 2014 sanctions that Russians went all organic. I also read that South Korea did the same. In neither case am I sure if this is true but it's the right way forward since the soil is replenished regularly with proper living fertilization agents and the resultant crops many orders of magnitude more vibrant and therefore nourishing.

Posted by: Scorpion | Apr 17 2022 16:52 utc | 54

Every now an then US media almost catches up with reality:
Article was from the AP...

Posted by: Paul Spencer | Apr 17 2022 16:54 utc | 55

@46, james

Besides being a land use researcher, I also do a little "farmers'" market during the warm months so perhaps I have some self-interest bias. Currently, do I or can I produce enough of my own food for an annual basis, no, but then again my efforts aren't designed for that at the present. Could we all raise our own food within 100 miles radius of everybody? I'm not sure but we could certainly use more hybrid models of production than we do now. Then again, more people would have to think about their food than they currently do. We all do trade-offs in our lives, but to have either a direct or indirect policy that the U.S. is going to invade other regions of the world to acquire those "last best places" to do our current mode of ag production is sort of the height of hubris. Maybe the globalists in charge have over played their hands the past 2-3 years and enough ordinary people will tell them to go screw themselves that some change can happen. Learn as much as you can about lots of different things and keep your powder dry, things may get a lot bumpier down the road in the short-term future...

Posted by: DakotaRog | Apr 17 2022 16:58 utc | 56

Posted by: hoggy | Apr 17 2022 16:22 utc | 50

ALL WARS ARE ABOUT RESOURCES. Know THIS as the starting point.

The US has set up a control racket, one that manages and controls resources. There are two key reasons why the US is putting massive energy into pushing back Russia, one is primary and the other is secondary (though still very important(.

1) It's about protecting the financial system (USD/IMF/SWIFT), a system that was tailored for domination by the US/UK bankers;
2) It's about controlling the US population writ large.

If you don't have BOTH these under control then you have nothing under control.

International laws were starting to be invoked to disclose the violations by the US/West in which case it, the US/West, magically changed over to the nowhere-encoded "rules based order." It's now: "might makes right."

Of course, physical resources are extremely important, which is being made more clear by Russia's ability to buck the West's run at them. The fake/virtual "money" system that's currently dominant in the world (via USD) is, in the face of per-capita physical resource decline, starting to unravel. The unraveling threatens to expose the West's oligarchs to the masses. A military operation (war) is always a way to force populations into submission; in this case submission to continue to be subordinate to the ruling oligarchs.

Rather than adjust the failing system the West/US is doubling down. Making populations pliable requires bread to go with the circuses. The bread is starting to run out and at some point no amount of clowning (think of the current Western leaders and you can see a nice match-up) is going to convince people that they aren't hungry.

In the end there will still be the matter of "growth" on a finite planet. I doubt that those in power do not grasp this: the general populations, however, have been totally sold on this as being essential (though it's really essential to keep the ruling powers in power).

So, the way forward will be that of hiding bodies and burning ledgers. Same as it's always been...

Posted by: Seer | Apr 17 2022 16:59 utc | 57

Nicely Said Hoggy. Nicely said.

Posted by: Degringolade | Apr 17 2022 17:02 utc | 58


Looks like you just fell out of bed and realized - oh fuck, there's a war on.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 17 2022 17:11 utc | 59

Posted by: Ian Kummer | Apr 17 2022 13:11 utc | 6
The Rwanda génocide, a perfect exemple of the création of the Nazi idéa by Nazis.
The fulgurance and the magnitude between 500 000 and 1000000 deaths in 3 months make of these events something out of the ordinary.
First of all, the training of the Rwandan army in Saint-Cyr" paris by the "good" French officers selected for their fascist obédiances.
The shame of certain French soldiers when they réalize that they have in fact come to save genocidaires under the cover of a "humanitarian operation".(turquoise)
Belgium and its finely ethnicized administration.
The silence of the Catholic Church incredible John Paul II.
The UNO, the UNAMIR Romeo Dalaire, the gear of a system to crush people.
The aberrant treatment of the TPI which dances on the head.
In fact always the same block united in the supremacisme by the fascist idea
the reverse is also valid.
In the time when freedom of expression still existed on the public radios in france a communist program "la bas si j'y suis"
The subject of Rwanda is treated on 11 hours of broadcasts in French.
Listening to this is essential and dangerous, it hurts the head and the heart.
The power of the imagination is powerful if the image is not there.
We can choose not to listen too.
I post a first link the first hour a real descent into hell of a country
country where only the memory of an imported genocide will remain.

Posted by: la bouteille | Apr 17 2022 17:12 utc | 60

Zelinski is advised by the western advisors and they want the foreigners trapped in Azrovstal to die as martyrs. That would inflame the social media and play in the hands of the USA and Europe's propaganda om Russian's "cruelty"
I guess some small dose of Novitchok or anesthesic gaz thrown in azrovstal will neutralize them. They can then be exposed to the media after they wake up

They should be left alive and allowed to tell how Kiev treated them

Posted by: virgile | Apr 17 2022 17:12 utc | 61

hoggy @ 50

Those awful self obsessed little snots are exactly who rules the world.

There is a reason Wilkerson has no real position and why when he did he mostly played the game and kept his mouth shut. The idea that somewhere in the back room there are wonks who are on top of the situation is fanciful at best. That any would pay them any attention were they to exist is not happening.

Scorpion @ 55

That Bokashi business works a lot better when there are worms. Have you put a shovel in the dirt lately? Also works better when there are a host of small insects. I can work outdoors all day and not be bothered by a bug. Awful jobs like priming the underside of the porch or stairs previously near impossible are a piece of cake now because no spiders, no bugs, not even dirt. Airy proclamations we could feed ten times current population are that - air. The breakdown of the biosphere is advanced, electric cars and windmills are purely a distraction.

Posted by: oldhippie | Apr 17 2022 17:23 utc | 62

The comedian (Zelensky) claims that Ukraine will fight Russia for a decade if need be, decoded it reads the USA will supply weapons to Ukraine until Ukraine runs out of fighters.

"Ukraine is not prepared to give up territory and is ready, if necessary, to fight Russia “for 10 years,” President Volodymyr Zelensky has said.

In an interview with CNN, Zelensky said that for Ukraine “the battle for Donbass is very important” for a number of reasons, adding that it could affect “the course of the whole war.” "

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 17 2022 17:27 utc | 63

The refusal by the Ukrainian Government to let its own soldiers surrender and live from Azovstal, showed its true evil nature. It is against any humane practice of a normal government, a timely yard stick to measure the morality of Western Mass News Media. (With their deafening silence, they can't run and hide this time)

Posted by: KitaySupporter | Apr 17 2022 13:09 utc | 5

I would imagine that decision is made by the commanders in the field, not the central government. Quite a few Marines and special forces in Azovstal have surrendered.

Posted by: Jeff Melton | Apr 17 2022 17:27 utc | 64

The Nazi's are using banned munitions.

"Internationally banned MON-50 and MON-90 mines used by the Ukrainian forces were discovered in Mariupol. The mines were found inside the Ilyich steel mill."

From what I can gather from the Saker on Mariupol only the Azovstal complex has still to be cleared out.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 17 2022 17:30 utc | 65

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 17 2022 17:27 utc | 64

In an interview with CNN, Zelensky said that for Ukraine “the battle for Donbass is very important” for a number of reasons, adding that it could affect “the course of the whole war.” "

He's correct about this at least. Once the main body of the UAF is broken in Donbas, it's essentially "game over" for Zelensky ("The State").

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 17 2022 17:34 utc | 66

It would appear that the likes of Shaun Pinner and CossackGundi two UK mercenaries caught in Mariupol will now go on trial for the whole world to see.

From the Saker.

“Among those captured in Ukraine there are military personnel from the countries of the North Atlantic Alliance (NATO). This was announced on Friday, April 15, by Andrei Klimov, deputy head of the commission of the United Russia party for international cooperation…

“We already have prisoners among the military personnel of NATO countries, we will show all this when we conduct trials, and the whole world will see what really happened,” he said during a briefing with the media. The senator also said that there are mercenaries in Ukraine from Asia, Africa, Great Britain, the USA and other states. He recalled that mercenaries are not military personnel and they are not subject to international law.”

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 17 2022 17:37 utc | 67

Do you know Alina Lipp? This war is actually being fought on multiple fronts, including public opinion. Brave people who come forward to tell the truth are also warriors against the evil establishment.

Posted by: M Wang | Apr 17 2022 17:38 utc | 68

@41 gottlieb
re: Zelensky says "fight for 10 years"

I thought Blinken the other day said end of the year, but what kind-of irrelevent.

Some nasty speculative arithmetic... wild ass guess = 250k Ukrainians+mercs can be found to fight with a useful level of enthusiasm. Lets say more equipment is found (eg there's plenty of old soviet gear outside EU, and the "taxpayer", ie corrupt legislator signing other people's checks, will surely provide more.

Current rate of UA losses, per RF estimates, is about 5k per week are killed/wounded/captured. So that's 50 weeks right there. That's one way to look at it.

It is an alarmingly bloody scenario. Another totally speculative scenario, is stretch it out over a longer time. Say DNR and perhaps Kharkov are eventually cleared, and RF wishes to stop and concentrate on rebuilding those already extensive destroyed areas.

Yet if the current Ukrainian methods would remain unchanged, it seems to imply they would just continue random terror strikes using whatever means are available, hoping to continue being rewarded by their sponsors for escalation as they have been. It doesn't pay here to bet against either human creativity, nor to bet against the willingness of sponsors to make regrettable decisions like eventually giving out more/better weapons.

So yeah, it could be an indefinite future. In 10 years there will be bigger problems for the US power position in the world, EU will have to eat the economic and refugee-flow effects. But it doesn't mean peace magically comes anywhere. As long as someone pays, it goes on.

Posted by: ptb | Apr 17 2022 17:38 utc | 69

Arch Bungle (67).

Even if the Ukrainian forces are routed in the Donbas, its my opinion that the West will still funnel weapons and mercenaries from all over into Ukraine. Ukraine and everyone in it are expendable.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 17 2022 17:41 utc | 70

@ juliania | Apr 17 2022 16:38 utc | 51

kudos on getting the snow peas happening! we have peas coming up, but no produce yet... we really do have to be thinking in terms of the local community which begins with our family and our immediate place of living... when is the orthodox easter? i take it it is later? thanks...

@ DakotaRog | Apr 17 2022 16:58 utc | 57

in less then 75 years, here on vancouver island we've gone from being food independent, to being food dependent... a lot of changes have happened, but i think it would be easy to switch back, if the focus wasn't on jobs, economy and having more and more people everywhere contributing to the building boom... i take it this is an outgrowth of stock market speculation - reits and etc - given the success of real estate bubbles... it does impact the available land.. some of the most productive land is in the vancouver - fraser river estuary and really the whole fraser river valley from hope down to vancouver... they continue to build on this valuable agricultural land.. the idea was to keep the land within the alt - agricultural land trust - but chamber of commerce, real estate developers and etc. etc. types, have a different concept of the future... somehow we need to replace these people with people who value what we have at present, as opposed to this endless jobs, economy b.s. end of rant, lol.... thanks for your commentary.. are you in the dakotas?

Posted by: james | Apr 17 2022 17:42 utc | 71

Unfortunately we know Borrell since almost forever. He's just a deep imbecile, a pure hooligan that always aimed to climb socially by aligning himself with the mighty. But, he's unable to detect the simplest online scam. See:

Posted by: Betibeteka | Apr 17 2022 17:43 utc | 72

While the multipolar world is in its birth pangs, UK is busily starting or adding fuel to fires all over the world, from @rybar,

Prolong the conflict in Ukraine to set other places on fire

In recent years, there has been an opinion that Uncle Sam and the United States are behind every conflict. From the first days of the conflict, it was Washington that was blamed for all the troubles of Russia. At best, they talked about NATO and the collective West. At worst, it's about the senile Biden, who for some reason is still considered an independent figure.

However, if we look at who specifically defends Ukraine the most, who consistently pumps the Ukraine army with weapons and puts pressure on other countries whose satellites promote the idea of actively protecting Kiev, then we will find that it is the United Kingdom.

On February 21, we published a text about the public "return" of Great Britain to big politics and explained in detail why what is happening is happening. The United States, at the same time, turns into a laughing stock country, and its politicians turn into senile people for public flogging.

On April 13, a good analytical text in two parts was published on the channel of the clever Frida Kahlo about how the world political center moved from Washington to Foggy Albion. The United States is losing its leading position and is on the verge of collapse. One can say that this is "hooray-patriotism" and hooting: look, Uncle Sam broke down, ha-ha-ha. Only this does not change the essence: the sum does not change from changing the places of the terms. The decision-making center has moved, but the pressure has not gone away and has not become weaker.

It is the British who are taking the course today to prolong the conflict in Ukraine. Because it is necessary to set fire to hot spots in other parts of the world so that chaos begins in the eastern hemisphere around one large, but such an inconvenient country called Russia.

What conflicts are we talking about?

The Balkan gossip girl writes that Kosovo is about to burst into flames: the region is being actively pumped with weapons by the British, the Turks are engaged in training local structures. And these are far from the first signs of impending tension: we observed a demonstrative rattling of weapons about a month ago.

At the same time, there is an escalation in Nagorno-Karabakh, where for a long time the Azerbaijanis have been gathering troops and conducting demonstrative sabotage operations, undermining the authority of Russian peacekeepers. And in March, the British Defense Minister flew there on his first official visit.

In Pakistan, Imran Khan was removed from power. Rallies are taking place, escalating into mass riots. If the situation does not stabilize, we are waiting for an escalation on the border of Iran, China and India — countries pursuing a policy friendly to Russia. At the same time, clashes on the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan intensified — and we have been talking about the possible incitement of Afghanistan in the spring due to the inability of the Taliban regime to provide power for a long time. And if Afghanistan is set on fire, it will hook the whole of Central Asia.

The Turks promise to squeeze the Americans out of Iraq and Syria, thereby shifting the balance of power. The next operation in Iraqi Kurdistan, according to our data, should start in the next couple of weeks. And under whom are the Turks? That's right, under the UK.

All this takes place in the zone of traditional influence of the UK. They are trying to set fire to Eastern Europe, the Arabian Peninsula, Transcaucasia and Central Asia.

Yes, there is also the US—China—Taiwan confrontation. But considering that the British have not changed their attitude towards the Chinese since the opium wars and continue to consider them as "yellow monkeys", the Foggy Albion wants to take part of that conflict too.

And now look: at the same time, attempts are continuing in every possible way to continue the negotiation process which should prolong the current situation in Ukraine. What is the threat of this delay?

That's right, by inciting new hot spots on the distant approaches. And this does not bring anything good for Russia. And we need to be ready for this.

Does this mean that there is no need for negotiations?

Yes, let them talk. Only do not stop and do not change goals. As an informational noise, negotiations can and should be conducted. But we must not forget to blame the Ukrainians for the failure of any attempts to negotiate. Which, in fact, is not difficult: just listen to Zelensky's speeches.
#UK #USA #Turkey #Ukraine

Posted by: Boo | Apr 17 2022 17:47 utc | 73

from the previous thread -

@ Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 17 2022 6:19 utc | 170 quote -
"He's monetizing his expertise to the correct crowd (in his mind) I guess. Nothing different than Greenwald or Taibbi in that regard. I just really get turned off by "patriots" who don't stand up for people like Snowden or Assange on a *regular* basis and who brag about having good patriotic genes and ancestors. But again, I guess that's what sells in his 'market' (without ever actually taking up arms or participating in realistic protests against Washington's crimes)."

yes, i agree with you on larry johnson ... i actually think people are complicated... i never understood why people like pat or larry couldn't see how assange was actually helping their own cause, as opposed to interfering with it... on some level it seemed to me they swallowed the kool aid as served up by the msm on both assange and snowden... this seems to be a very american thing too as i understand it.. something about being a patriot... it just looks to me like making your love of country more important then your basic sanity! i figure they swallow the b.s. about these individuals being traitors.... its a funny thing - traitors and patriots - the concept of both seem to depend on each other... both reflect a type of zealousness as i see it... either way - b has shared larrys post at the top of this thread!! that is kind of funny, seeing as we were talking about it on the previous thread! going fly fishing soon..

Posted by: james | Apr 17 2022 17:51 utc | 74

Paul Greenwood | Apr 17 2022 14:16 utc | 15

"DU is used to penetrate tank armour because of its density"
From Wiki:

Depleted uranium is favored for the penetrator because it is self-sharpening[38] and flammable.[34] On impact with a hard target, such as an armored vehicle, the nose of the rod fractures in such a way that it remains sharp.[38] The impact and subsequent release of heat energy causes it to ignite.[34] When a DU penetrator reaches the interior of an armored vehicle, it catches fire, often igniting ammunition and fuel, killing the crew and possibly causing the vehicle to explode.[citation needed] DU is used by the U.S. Army in 120 mm or 105 mm cannons employed on the M1 Abrams tank.

In the Iraq war there were anti tank rounds that went through more than one tank. The soldiers inside were Cooked to the a crispy state and were called crispy critters. Member that??

Powerful reporting here
The Dodgy Bodger

Posted by: dodgy Bodger | Apr 17 2022 17:53 utc | 75

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 17 2022 17:41 utc | 71

that the West will still funnel weapons and mercenaries from all over into Ukraine.

That is true but the main oppositional force within Ukraine will have been removed, allowing Russian, DPR and LPR forces to consolidate.

The funneling of mercenaries into 404 is going to be heavily interdicted, given Russia's excellent surveillance, targeting and long range strike capabilities.

Of course, NATO will imagine they can prosecute a guerrilla type war in Ukraine. They'll have romantic fantasies that their mercenaries are on par with the Mujaheddin, Taliban, Viet Minh etc, but they will find that the geography, cultural composition and organisational structures in Ukraine do not support effective guerrilla warfare.

They will find very soon that Zelensky is no Ho Chi Minh or Hassan Nasrallah and they have no parallel to General Giap. What I'm saying here is that effective guerrilla warfare requires excellent organisation and leadership under very chaotic conditions, none of which the leadership of the corrupt hellhole that is Ukraine represents.

What they will have, instead of a coherent guerrilla strategy, is simply mass terrorism, which Russia, specifically Putin has extensive experience in dealing with (Syria, Chechnya, Dagestan) ...

One wonders what the implications for Syria will be: Will the redirection of mercenary resources from Syria to Ukraine leave the Empire at a disadvantage in Syria ?

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 17 2022 17:54 utc | 76

Here is another fundamental reason why America is so enraged about Russia and its intervention into Ukraine:

Exclusive: Russia's Sergey Glazyev introduces the new global financial system

This Ukraine war of course is not really about Ukraine.

It's about opposing American unipolar dominance of the planet, which has existed since the end of the first Cold War. All these other "reasons" are likely propaganda that America and its agents of influence push to obscure this geopolitical reality.

This war means confronting the America-dominated "security architecture" that the United States controls to enforce its geopolitical yoke over the entire planet.

And just as important, it means confronting the American-dominated financial system, which allows the United States to live beyond its means and devour goods and services from the rest of the world in exchange for worthless paper.

In short, America is a parasite on the global economy.

Putin Calls U.S. 'Parasite' on Global Economy

This American parasite has an in-bred sense of its own imperial entitlement--economic, military, and political.

The American war machine's raison d'etre is to defend this system of American parasitism the entire world over. In American Doublespeak, this is called “defending freedom, democracy, and a Rules-Based International Order.”

Unfortunately, the American parasite will not peacefully nor sincerely give up this system without war.

Ukraine is merely one front in this World War.

And there likely will be other fronts in this war from Asia to the Middle East to Europe to inside belly of the American beast itself.

The American parasite will have to be terminated.

America Delenda Est.

Posted by: ak74 | Apr 17 2022 17:58 utc | 77

dodgy Bodger (76).

As far as I'm aware Nato used DU shells in Serbia.

"The use of depleted uranium during the NATO bombing of Serbia has caused long-term damage to Serbia and the Serbian people. Because every year we have an increase in the number of cancer cases by 25 percent over the previous year. Figures in the case of patients in Kosovska Mitrovica support this fact, as in 2011 here were registered 185 of them, the following year, 225 and in 2013 – 250. Therefore, the gloomy forecasts, imposed back in 2002, that the use of depleted uranium during the aggression of Western military alliance against FRY will cause an epidemic of malignant diseases, turned out to be accurate, said dr. Nebojsa Srbljak for Serbian daily “Vecernje Novosti”."

"Italy which has revealed that their soldiers, who stayed in Kosovo, were irradiated and that the increased number of hematological diseases is a direct consequence of the use of depleted uranium ammunition,” said Dr. Srbljak. “Italian KFOR soldiers were deployed where the most of the ammunition with depleted uranium was used, in Pec, Djakovica, in Kosare. Their families, as far as I know, have received compensation.”"

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 17 2022 17:59 utc | 78

The US and the NATO nations will utterly bankrupt themselves if they keep funneling weapons into Ukraine, the Britain, France, Germany and the Baltic states are already complaining that we have depleted their own arms reserves. Normal countries could simply rebuild and restock their supplies, but the NATO countries have outsourced all of their domestic production to China, they have minimal national resources to build anything (relying on Africa and Russia for their raw resources) AND they are hugely indebted, there is simply no money to replace these arms and when they try to do that, their economies will implode.

Posted by: Kadath | Apr 17 2022 18:03 utc | 79

Exhausted, what a shit time to actually give fuck.

Posted by: Bea | Apr 17 2022 13:40 utc | 7

Thank you for your account of local interactions. You don't say where this happened, but yesterday someone from southern Italy had a similar account -- it's all over the place now.

I reside in the SF Bay Area, where my neighbors are like yours, or like the neighbors Patrick Lawrence shares reflections about:

Great Barrington lies in the Berkshire Hills of western Massachusetts, a fashionable little burg dense — as you can tell simply by walking around in it —with righteous liberals. No place, you remind yourself, is perfect.

It's beyond astonishing for me: careening directly into war with a nuclear power (which has evidently devoted more serious attention than "the west" to functional hypersonic technology), and yet, at this most crucial of all historical moments, right here at a geographical hotbed of warmongering in sheep's clothing, there is less than zero of any peace movement.

About the best we've got out here (technically, a national movement) is an outfit Medea Benjamin started called CodePink ("Women for Peace"). They're still doing useful work. But nobody is really pushing back against the blue & yellow "Ukranian Nationalist" cheerleaders for mayhem.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Apr 17 2022 18:08 utc | 80

@dodgy Bodger | Apr 17 2022 17:53 utc | 76

DU is also cheap. Instead of storing it as waste now they get to destroy nations with it. America the Empire that keeps on killing after they've left. Whether it's DU, Agent Orange, Nuclear Bomb, Cluster Bombs, the suffering continues.

Even now, in Germany, they are still dealing with hundreds of tons of unexploded ordnances every year.

Posted by: Sundial | Apr 17 2022 18:08 utc | 81

"One wonders what the implications for Syria will be: Will the redirection of mercenary resources from Syria to Ukraine leave the Empire at a disadvantage in Syria ?"

Arch Bungle (77).

Probably not, Saudi brainwashed Wahhabists, and the Muslim Brotherhood are a conveyor belt of ready made fighters, that can be used to back up the "moderate" fighters still in Syria. I'm just surprised that a full out attack in Syria hasn't materalised to keep Russia fighting on two fronts, such as Turkish forces grabbing more of Northern Syria.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 17 2022 18:09 utc | 82

ptb @ 70

In less than 2 months stockpiles of ammo across all of NATO are running low. Several countries have stopped sending ammo because they are just out. Pentagon is warning US is short. This is why the extreme of destruction is seen in Mariupol. One of Patrick Lancaster’s interviewees mentioned this week that WWI, revolution, civil war. WWII had all been fought right in his neighborhood and the lovely 19th century homes survived. Now rubble. How US prosecutes war.

Of course much of what is sent to Ukraine is directly diverted to the global black market but this does not change that resupply will not be easy. Daily the possibility of moving supply from Polish border to the front diminishes. Apparently most moves in civilian cars and small trucks. Supply of which is depleted. Gasoline and diesel are only harder to find. RF gets better a spotting and eliminating the vehicles.

Looking at vids of surrendering Ukrainian soldiers does not promise continued morale. If anyone beyond the politicized nutcases had wanted this war the Uke army would be far larger. Chechnya has over 1% of its population fighting in Ukraine. And offers five times as many. If 1% of Ukraine had been in regular army RF would never have invaded.

Posted by: oldhippie | Apr 17 2022 18:12 utc | 83

Republicofscotland@71...don't you think the Mercs accents, skin colour and personal mannerisms will give them away. The locals will eventually tire of them and give them up. Unless they all speak fluid Ukrainian.


Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Apr 17 2022 18:14 utc | 84

Posted by: v | Apr 17 2022 15:45 utc | 40

Just 21 hours ago, he was chatting with Mssers Mercouris and Christaforou. I noted these remarks with something like interest.

"It's not the neocons? It's the wall streeters?"
BULLETIN: In the US, these are jerseys of distinction without difference.

"When was the last time the side that required someone to deny something, anything, was historically the winning side of the argument? I'd like to know."
BULLETIN: Crack a book. Flipping backward from the last Herr Marshall Chairman Schiff minority report, the Coalition of the Willing, HUAC 1938-1975, and Instances of Use of United States Armed Forces Abroad, 1798-2022 through the through the 30-Years War, Inquisition/Reconquista, and first first world war, formerly known as The Crusades to the preface of European intellectual history, First Council of Nicaea or the Peloponnesian War. You decide.

Can anyone tell me, Why did Mr Lira immigrate to Ukraine?

Posted by: sln2002 | Apr 17 2022 18:31 utc | 85

PS. Has he uploaded his trip to a Kharkiv grocer yet?

Posted by: sln2002 | Apr 17 2022 18:34 utc | 86

I'm curious if anyone may be able to provide links to what I'll call a rumor for now (since I don't have said links) that Ukraine not only drastically ramped up shelling on Donbas (per Jacques Baud's numerous forays into the matter), but also were observed in a huge operation of clearing land mines that they had previously placed to allow for the imminent planned attempt to re-take Donbas by force. Curiously Baud never mentions this, and I can't remember where I saw or heard it.

Any help much appreciated.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 17 2022 18:41 utc | 87

See video statement from George Galloway in this post:

@georgegalloway reports that has not contacted him either and has missed their interview today. Officially @realGonzaloLira it's missing for more than 48 hours after been threatened by the Ukrainian authorities before.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 17 2022 18:48 utc | 88

Can anyone tell me, Why did Mr Lira immigrate to Ukraine?

Posted by: sln2002 | Apr 17 2022 18:31 utc | 86

Gonzalo Lira is married to a Ukrainian woman, presumably they have family there. If it was me, I would have settled in Chile.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Apr 17 2022 18:51 utc | 89

@ james, 72

Yep, the southeast quadrant of old Dakota Territory. It's current climate, soils, and lay of the land is lot like inland eastern Ukraine, except less natural trees ;)...

Posted by: DakotaRog | Apr 17 2022 18:53 utc | 90

And my German ancestors immigrated from about 70 miles north of the Sea of Azov in the early 1870s. Good move on their part.

Posted by: DakotaRog | Apr 17 2022 18:55 utc | 91

la bouteille @61

I am pleased to find your reference to the Rawanda genocide radio blast. I do not read French, but I have downloaded the first two and having Trint transcribe them into French. I will then use deepL to convert to English. Maybe this works out. I will report back.

Posted by: Billovskii | Apr 17 2022 18:58 utc | 92

Seer | Apr 17 2022 16:59 utc | 58

I'm with you: (i) The only unit of measurement in westworld is money; but (ii) textbook economists do *not* define money as resource; and (iii) when money does *not* effect manpower, it eadily degrades into instruments of war.

a propos westworld's present enterprise chasing yield, I find this paper, The Impact of the Financial Crisis
on Emerging Asia
, is a pleasant reminder that the credit crash of '08 not only exposed the strengths and weaknesses of the imperial basket, but galvanized the BRICS formation which plagues NATO "strategists" stuck on on total world domination.

Posted by: sln2002 | Apr 17 2022 18:58 utc | 93

Norwegian | Apr 17 2022 18:48 utc | 89

I read on one of the telegram channels there has been something of a purge happening in Kharkov in the last day or so. Ukies had a few secret stashes bombed so they are going over the place with a fine tooth comb looking for traitors/collaborators. Bucha 2.0.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 17 2022 19:18 utc | 94

leprechaun (85).

That is a possibility, though we've seen how Ukrainian forces react to Russian friendlies in Bucha, so maybe the civvies in Ukraine though not all of them, might sit tight knowing the foreign mercs would not think twice about killing them and their families.

Also we are assuming that Ukrainian civvies (unknown amount) are Russian friendly first and foremost, I guess that possibility will be down to regions in Ukraine and how the civvies see themselves.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 17 2022 19:19 utc | 95

leprechaun (85).

If this info from the Saker holds any water, there may be more Russia friendly civvies in Ukraine than we think, why else would the Kherson want to break away from Ukraine, unless of course its just propaganda from the media in Crimea.

"Firstly, apparently anchors at the Crimea24 news station in Crimea are already referring to Kherson as the ‘Kherson People’s Republic’, ‘that is, an entirely separate and seceded political entity from the Ukrainian Central Government.’"

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 17 2022 19:24 utc | 96


The Ukrainization of Western politics: Ukraine is full of thieves who have been honing their skills for 30 years and are coming for our money.

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Apr 17 2022 19:25 utc | 97

oldhippie | Apr 17 2022 18:12 utc | 84

Some weeks ago, western propaganda had it that Russia was running out of ammunition. Always a case of projection.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 17 2022 19:28 utc | 98

@84 oldhippie

I wish, but don't think it's that simple. Sure they're going to run out of the big-ticket items, aircraft, tanks, and boutique eqipment. But You can feed pickup trucks, rifles, RPGs, small-drones, and basic artillery or Grad's (either with modernized guided ammo), pretty much forever. This is straight-up repeat of cold war, it went on 40 years in half a dozen countries at once, nobody was running out of ammunition. Only thing new is the sensor and comms technology and that's ultimately like consumer electronics (ie those $100k price tags on javelins are just a product of the US gov getting screwed ... which will of course go on, but they just print the money so who cares?). Now one might question what happens if China feels the need to also play this game, but that's not on anyone's mind.

Posted by: ptb | Apr 17 2022 19:29 utc | 99

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 17 2022 17:54 utc | 77

The ukies are being prepared to execute (SAS is on the ground) acts of terror or sabotage in Russia itself. There are couple of opinions I read among the Russian analytical channels and they all point to this as potentially bigger issue than this expected guerilla warfare in Ukraine, which as you point out have significant drawbacks including the Ukranians tiring of the terror events quickly, especially in the East and then gradually in Central Ukraine. Striking targets in Russia, and Biellorussia, could be the way to continue the war by UK/US.

Posted by: Boo | Apr 17 2022 19:37 utc | 100

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