Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 04, 2022

The Bucha Provocation

The Bucha 'Russian' atrocities propaganda onslaught may have worked well in the 'west' but it lacks evidence that Russia had anything to do with it.

The former Indian ambassador M.K. Bhadrakumar calls it an outright fake:

An indignant Moscow has angrily demanded a United Nations Security Council meeting on Monday over the allegations of atrocities by Russian troops in areas around Kiev through the past month. Prima facie, this allegation is fake news but it can mould misperceptions by the time it gets exposed as disinformation.

A Tass report says: “The Russian Defense Ministry said on Sunday that the Russian Armed Forces had left Bucha, located in the Kiev region, on March 30, while “the evidence of crimes” emerged only four days later, after Ukrainian Security Service officers had arrived in the town. The ministry stressed that on March 31, the town’s Mayor Anatoly Fedoruk had confirmed in a video address that there were no Russian troops in Bucha. However, he did not say a word about civilians shot dead on the street with their hands tied behind their backs.”

Even more surprising is that within minutes of the “breaking news”, western leaders — heads of state, foreign ministers, former politicians — popped up with statements duly kept ready and only based on the videos, seconds-long videos and a clutch of photos, ready to pour accusations. No expert opinion was sought, no forensic work was done, no opportunity given to the accused to be heard.

I had yesterday, at 15:09 UTC, posted a timeline of the events in Bucha on Twitter. Here is an expanded version.

Mar 30 - Ru troops leave Bucha

Mar 31 - Mayor of Bucha announces town 'liberated', makes no mention of atrocities.

Bucha liberated from Russian invaders – mayor - Ukrinform

The mayor of Bucha in Kyiv region, Anatoliy Fedoruk, stated that the town had been liberated from Russian troops.

Fedoruk said this in his video address posted on Facebook, Ukrinform reports.

"March 31 will go down in the history of our Bucha community as the Day of Liberation. ..."

Apr 1/2 - Azov Nazis enter Bucha

Scenes of desperation and death as the Russians retreat from suburbs outside Kyiv. - New York Times

Ukrainian soldiers from the Azov battalion walked through the remnants of a Russian military convoy in the recently liberated town of Bucha on Saturday, just outside the capital after the Russians withdrew.

Apr 3 - Ukr MinDef publishes video of 'Russian' atrocities

Here are the latest developments in the war in Ukraine. - New York Times, Apr 3

Footage posted by Ukraine’s Defense Ministry and photographs from news agencies showed the bodies of men in civilian clothes on the streets of Bucha, a town northwest of Kyiv. Images showed some corpses with hands bound behind their back.

A screenshot of the original NYT piece was attached to my tweet. It included the sentence:

The New York Times was unable to independently verify the assertions by Ukraine's Defense Ministry and other officials.

The above tweet went viral with more than 3,000 retweets and nearly 5,000 likes. People obviously recognize the importance of the above timeline for the question of who killed whom, when and how.

Gonzalo Lira, who is in Karkiv, has previously directed a professionally made movie. In this video he asserts that the main 'Russian' atrocity video, which shows cars driving down a street strewn with dead bodies, is of a professional high production quality that can only be achieved with high end equipment. He also remarks on additional evidence from the scenes that points to a false flag operation.

Lira comes to the conclusion that the Azov Nazis have killed some people in Bucha that had been too friendly with the Russian 'occupiers' and are now blaming Russia for it.

Azov gangs are known for such atrocities. Based on the above timeline I concur with Lira's conclusion.

Posted by b on April 4, 2022 at 14:34 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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@ @ Don Bacon | Apr 5 2022 2:27 utc | 186

maxars largest customer is the usa gov't - 90% or more of the money they get is from the gov't.. going on memory... i am trying to find the article i read on them from about 4 days ago.. i will see if i can find it.. this is the american company providing the satellite images...

Maxar Technologies Inc. is a space technology company headquartered in Westminster, Colorado, United States, specializing in manufacturing communication, Earth observation, radar, and on-orbit servicing satellites, satellite products, and related services.

found it.. here is the article - Are These Satellite Images War Propaganda?

"According to Maxar, the company provides 90 percent of the “foundational geospatial intelligence used by the U.S. government for national security.” For nearly a decade, Maxar was the sole supplier of commercial high-resolution satellite imagery for the Defense Department’s National Reconnaissance Office, which paid Maxar $300 million per year for access to its satellites as well as its behemoth image archive."

Posted by: james | Apr 5 2022 3:51 utc | 201

I am reading at Reuters that Zelensky is going to address the UNSC.....I think tomorrow some time

The UNSC is going to be turned into a Hollywood movie set but it still won't cover up the Empire of Lies

The shit show continues until it doesn't...

As long as both sides don't start lobbing nukes we hopefully will overcome the lie driven side devouring itself.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 5 2022 4:49 utc | 203

https://warnews247.gr/meizona-krisi-stin-valtiki-to-nato-ethese-ypo-poliorkia-to-kaliningkrant-elave-theseis-machis-ston-diadromo-suwalki-aitia-polemou-leei-i-moscha/

Citing Bucha. Major crisis in the Baltic: NATO besieges Kaliningrad & takes battle positions at Suwalki Corridor
Interruption of Russia-Lithuania diplomatic relations
4/4/22 By Vassilis Kapoulas, WarNews24/7 (translated from Greek)

Posted by: Stegiel | Apr 5 2022 5:04 utc | 204

Has anyone seen this atrocity?
Any doubts what the ukro are capable of?

https://t.me/vityzeva/53189

Posted by: SCan | Apr 5 2022 5:07 utc | 205

Scott Ritter writes:
Russia ”has requested an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council to discuss what the Russian Foreign Ministry has called the “criminal provocations by Ukrainian soldiers and radicals” in Bucha. The presidency of the Security Council is held by Great Britain, and the British mission to the UN has denied the Russian request, stating that a discussion on Ukraine currently scheduled for Tuesday, April 4 would serve as a forum for any discussion about Bucha. 
One would think that the Security Council, which has shown a readiness in the past to meet on short notice to discuss the events coming out of Ukraine, would seek to accommodate Russia’s request on a matter of such importance. The goal of the British, however, does not appear to be the rapid search for truth and justice, but rather to buy time to allow the political fallout from the alleged massacre in Bucha to develop further.” (RT, 4.4.)
https://www.rt.com/russia/553293-bucha-war-crimes-truth/

Posted by: Mikkael | Apr 5 2022 5:23 utc | 206

Regarding the NYT imagery from (DoD contractor) Maxar. Someone said above that the bodies lying for weeks unattended is in line with what we're hearing from places like Mariupol. Important difference, Mariupol was a city under siege where residents say they were forced to shelter in basements for weeks and often fired at by Ukrainian troops if they left. The fact that many people interviewed in Bucha post 'liberation' do not seem at all traumatised in the same manner, are not irate at their treatment by Russians, and seem utterly blase about the events, suggests there was not a prolonged period of harsh occupation.

The areas was certainly shelled, especially in the days surrounding Russia's retreat, but the fact that Russia was clearly distributing humanitarian aid packages and that local residents had adopted the Russian white bands argues against them being able to carry out basic sanitary measures over those weeks.

The relatively undamaged nature of the bodies and numerous abandoned cars in those areas also suggest very careful driving being employed by an Russian troops using those streets during that three week period, carefully weaving to avoid damaging the corpses and vehicles of people they had apparently been happy to gun down in cold blood. after three weeks decay, the weather, the ravaging of stray dogs or nocturnal animals, and damage from vehicles (and possible later shelling) I would have expected the scene to be far less 'neat'.

Posted by: Brannagyn | Apr 5 2022 5:35 utc | 207

My friend Adam Larson has poster an analysis of the Bucha massacre on out Monitor on Massacre Marketing blog.

Towards Understanding the Bucha Massacre - Adam Larson, April 4, 2022

I wrote this comment before reading the blog. Adam reaches quite similar conclusions.

I have not read your analysis yet, but I want to record may independent observations. This only applies to the Yabluska Street half of the Bucha mystery. The other claims are poorly documented. Mass graves or whatever.... I will not go into them.

Two events are juxtaposed on top of each other on Yabluska Street. The New York Times article and the Maxar photos are the key to reconstructing the timeline.

There are up to 20 civilians who have died in Ukrainian shelling, most of them between March 9 and March 11. Yabluska Street is only 200 meters from the Bucha river, that separated Ukrainian from Russian forces. The street may have been in the no-man's-land, most likely there were no Russian solders in the area. Ukrainians would be unlikely to come across the river. Observation posts and artillery might be enough to keep them at bay.

The street was under Ukrainian drone surveillance, making it a no-go-zone. If they they saw any movement on the street, they would fire one round from a mortar. There is very little battle damage on the street, but there are at least two craters from artillery shells. Both have dead people nearby.

These older victims are never shown up close or in any decent resolution. All we see is black piles on the street.

There are two or three fresh victims in front of the Idilika Home gated residential complex. One of them has his hands tied behind his back with a white armband. It looks as if they were executed. Or maybe the hands were tied by the film crew to make it look like he was executed. The executioners may have intentionally killed or dumped the bodies there to make all 20+ victims to look like one event and one giant massacre.

The released footage is very selective. We never see the faces or even the skin of the victims. This must be intentional, we are not supposed to see the amount of decay or estimate the time of death.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Apr 5 2022 5:42 utc | 208

Hi! New to the site. I've never shot a person but have killed dozens and dozens of medium-to-large animals with through and through melon shots. They bled out to some extent, sometimes a lot. Almost none of the Bucha victims have very noticeable blood pools around their heads so it leads me to think (and the lay out on the roads reinforces it) that they were killed elsewhere and then dumped off of a truck onto the sides of road. Ok, kind of a rainy day in the photos but blood doesn't wash away easily without a lot of water. Almost all of the bodies have a "head down" appearance, I didn't see any face up. In the death throes of medium-to-larger mammals, one gets lots of different final positioning of the body, usually ending up on one side. The photos of the bodies don't really show this in my opinion.

Posted by: DakotaRog | Apr 5 2022 5:47 utc | 209

@100 Patroklos
I feel with you and agree 100%. The inmates took over the nuthouse.

Posted by: aquadraht | Apr 5 2022 6:08 utc | 210

Posted by: james | Apr 5 2022 3:51 utc | 197

Maxar is CIA all the way. Their headquarters is even in Langley, Virginia, right next to the CIA building!

Posted by: Robert Lindsay | Apr 5 2022 6:16 utc | 211

I assess with a high degree of confidence that Prime Minister Imran Khan will soon be assassinated.

I hope I turn out to be wrong on this.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 5 2022 3:00 utc | 190

An assassination plot against Khan was just foiled three days ago. Obviously cooked up by Uncle Satan.

Posted by: Robert Lindsay | Apr 5 2022 6:18 utc | 212

if the US is indeed trying to assassinate Khan, it certainly is picking fights with a number of nuclear states at the same time.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Apr 5 2022 6:21 utc | 213

There is information that local civilians had been killed in a series of shelling incidents earlier in March, and a temporary makeshift burial area may have been created next to a local church. Maxar's satellite photos appear to show both. It is possible the stage-managed scene which appeared Sunday morning featured corpses from a local "cleansing" operation as well as repurposed civilian casualties from previous shelling events.

Posted by: jayc | Apr 5 2022 3:50 utc | 196

Yes, many civilians had been killed by shelling, all of them by Ukrainian shelling of course as Russia controlled the city. The bodies were gathered up by the townspeople every day and buried in the mass grave by the church. Perhaps there are 300 bodies in there. The Ukrainians shelled the Hell out of that city. But those 600 bodies would have been killed by Ukrainian artillery.

Posted by: Robert Lindsay | Apr 5 2022 6:21 utc | 214

The link supplied by PetriKrohn above is worth reading. one significant excerpt:

These show a massacre roughly over the last 2-3 days = March 30 April 1, just after Russian forces left and up to about the time liberation was announced, as if it was done ... once all the "orc" collaborators were dead.

Above is a precedent for earlier deaths, and there could be others like that. Ukrainian advance forces might have been in parts o the city even before the 30th. But otherwise, these bodies appear newer, though not extremely new.

...at least one is dead >1 day, a green spot amid other colors on his lower right belly as seen on the 2nd. "First sign [of putrefaction]: green discoloration of the abdomen in the right lower quadrant"

..Others show darkened fingers, one a darkening chest wound, but no general discoloration = likewise dead some time, well over a day, but probably no more than 2-3 days. Others among the executed appear even more recently dead, with pools of blood still mostly wet.

Some bodies may have been victims of earlier shelling, or firing in the no-man's land mentioned above, but there seems to be good evidence that many, if not most, were not there for the 3 week period claimed by the NYT. If becomes the primary Western narrative, i.e. the massacre happened early in the Russian occupation, when they have reporters on the ground who will be well aware of the recent nature of many deaths, might be taken as further evidence of deliberate disinformation.

Posted by: Brannagyn | Apr 5 2022 6:23 utc | 215

@dh #180:

I just learned that Russians troops have been raping Ukrainian children and branding women with swastikas.

The woman branded with a swastika was discovered in Mariupol and first filmed by Patrick Lancaster. This is another case of Goebbelsian Western media blaming Ukronazi atrocities on the Russians.

Posted by: S | Apr 5 2022 6:25 utc | 216

Three questions about "information-warfare" and its discontents:

We saw the "Mightiest Wurlitzer" cranked up a couple of years ago in a Great Venezuela Hate over that country's refusal of the UN demand that the United States appoint Venezuela's President--and how many "news-consumers" even remember that?

Do not the US and the UK and their NATO stooges have "oligarchs"?

Will the peoples of the US and the UK and their NATO stooges ever grow tired of paying for and fighting and being propagandized for billionaires'-wars?


Posted by: John Kennard | Apr 5 2022 6:39 utc | 217

Contrary to my previous comment, while the initial reports from Bucha after Russia left the area seemed perfectly benign, there are reports that seem to be appearing since the 'massacre' story broke where people speak of Russian attacks on civilians.

Bucha Residents Describe 'Systematic' Killings By Russian Troops

Of course, Radio Free Europe is literally a US propaganda outlet, nevertheless, such accounts need to be considered and investigated.

One small detail I noticed is that the body on the bicycle in the initial freezeframe of the video has fingers that have not gone into the gloves on both hands, as though someone had attempted to place them on the body. Personally I do not understand why so many bodies are lying face down as though no one had turned them over to confirm death or check their identity (and then, if not remove them, cover them with blankets) but not having experienced such things directly perhaps this might be just an element of desensitisation

Posted by: Brannagyn | Apr 5 2022 6:48 utc | 218

Re Bucha - the empire of lies. There are three different killings. Ukraine forces launched heavy artillery and MLRS on various parts of Bucha. In the early days a Russian armored column was wiped out there. There is a trench for burying the civilian dead from the Ukie strikes - the mass grave. Then there is the street of death. Plenty of artillery strikes along the street. Looks to be proximity fuses with fragmentation warhead. A little bit of messed up ground wherever one struck rather than a crater. These were designed to detonate at body level going by the horizontal band of fragmentation strikes on various walls. Quite likely the nationalists used these to clear the roads they would take going in within hours or minutes of Russian forces leaving. The cars run over by APC's that's a hallmark of the Azov types and they would have charged into Bucha shortly after the artillery/rocket strike.
Then the are those executed in some sort of basement. That's the cleanup squad that then came through.

Whoever linked the Ritter interview back up the thread - thanks. I'll link it again.
https://rumble.com/vzn4yg-the-first-casualty-of-war-is-truth-live-wscott-ritter.html

Quite long but a few good insights in the last half hour. And right at the end, US bullshit about Taiwan and the South China Sea.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 5 2022 6:51 utc | 219

to Patroklos | Apr 4 2022 19:47 utc | 100

"Is anyone else here mentally and/or physically affected by this scale and depth of Western disinformation? With the Wuhan great psychosis I felt frequently like I was the only sane person in the room as reason fled the building .....And we now support Nazis, thugs and ethnic cleansing.... It's like waking up inside a Philip K. Dick novel..."


Yes. and we are living in The Matrix ..... NEO-liberlism, NEO-con interventionism, support for NEO-fascist Ukrainians, and mass NEO-McCarthyite censorship, all 24/7.

indeed mentally affected by all this hysteria, and the endless lying. But only of course when I read any of the mainstream media. It's like wading into a swamp full of snakes.
Difficult to have reasoned discussion with friends/acquaintances whose diet consists of continuous CNN and msnbc, or others whose only sources are the NY Times and Huff Post, two truly illiberal rags that I have come to loath for their slick and sickening pro-war, pro-US Empire coverage.

Posted by: michaelj72 | Apr 5 2022 7:14 utc | 220

@Patroklos | Apr 4 2022 19:47 utc | 100 “And I feel it now in my soul, a weariness, hating the internet, hating the lies upon lies to the point of lethargy and depression. This is the Enlightenment played in slow motion reverse. I feel physically sick over it every day.”

And to all who are weary...

Keep in mind, as karlof1 has reminded several times, that the majority of the world is not the West. As one who lives in the West but finds it revolting, you are siding with the majority of humans. The MSM is the Minority Stream Media. Be proud that you have understood that for a long time.

You must maintain a sense of humour:
“As a confirmed melancholic I can attest that the only cure is ‘action’! Unfortunately I am also inflicted with sloth. – Edward Abbey.
Community rarely knocks at your door. You have seek it out, even if the search is more difficult now.

With apologies to Joyce Kilmer:
There was a fine man lived ‘down under’
Whose spirit was ripping asunder.
Then he looked at a tree
And what he did see
Gave the ‘Awe see’ a new sense of wonder.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Apr 5 2022 7:17 utc | 221

Re my 217 - Quote was from memory in haste, so 'afflicted' rather than inflicted.
Wouldn't want c1ue to be ringin' me up for bad grammar.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Apr 5 2022 7:50 utc | 222

The city is small. Were they mourned by their families?

Posted by: Alberto | Apr 5 2022 7:57 utc | 223

here's one for ya'll
and check out the link for the shocking photo of Mosul, Iraq.
I've also included below that some choice replies from the thread

(this of course is not to mention the massive bombardments of cities such as Fallujah in Iraq and Raqqa in Syria, which were also 'destroyed so that they could be saved', no doubt)


https://twitter.com/skbozphd/status/1510784717389455365
"Historians puzzle at how Mosul Iraq, a city of 3 million, was flattened twice with American airstrikes in 2003 and 2017, without a single photograph of dead bodies being published."


- American perfection. Nothing like the Russian bombs that can't distinguish civilians and non civilians
- Indeed, American bombs hit buildings only 🤧, not people.
- Americans killed 2.4million people in Iraq. They call it collateral damage.
- American missiles are made from love. Not the same as Communist missiles.

Posted by: michaelj72 | Apr 5 2022 8:09 utc | 224

Briefing by Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Igor Konashenkov as of 10 a.m. on April 5, 2022

▪️The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation continue to conduct a special military operation in Ukraine.

▪ On the evening of April 4, high-precision, long-range sea-based weapons near the town of Ochakov destroyed the Ukrainian Special Operations Forces Training Center, which was used, among other things, to house foreign mercenaries.

▪ High-precision air-launched missiles destroyed four fuel depots for supplying Ukrainian troops near the settlements of Kremenets, Cherkasy, Zaporizhzhya and Novomoskovsk.

▪️ Throughout the night, the Russian Air Force and missile forces hit 134 Ukrainian military facilities.

These included eight command posts and communication nodes, one radar of the S-300 surface-to-air missile system, one launcher of the Tochka-U missile system, six ammunition depots and two fuel depots, as well as 85 strongholds and staging areas for Ukrainian military equipment.

▪ Russian air defence assets shot down four unmanned aerial vehicles in the areas of Chornobaivka, INDUSTRIALY, Gurty and Nijnya Krynka.

▪️ A total of 125 aircraft, 91 helicopters, 398 unmanned aerial vehicles, 226 surface-to-air missile systems, 1,969 tanks and other armoured combat vehicles, 214 multiple rocket launchers, 852 field artillery guns and mortars, and 1,873 pieces of special military vehicle equipment were destroyed since the beginning of the special military operation.

Posted by: sitrep | Apr 5 2022 8:26 utc | 225

@ S | Apr 5 2022 6:25 utc | 212

Goebbelsian Western media blaming Ukronazi atrocities on the Russians.

Crisp turn of phrase, that. A few aspects of this bother me terribly:

(1) Many of the media flim-flammers are "alternative" sources I've respected for years. I've got some explaining to do (only to my troubled self) about the grifters I've been heeding.

(2) This act of feigned gullibility for every Ukranian concoction is effective enough as Wurlitzer fodder to encourage more and more horrible atrocities. This is literally a war-criminal media, declaring open season on Ukranian civilians.

(3) It just keeps escalating. Cameras beg for more carnage, and Empire complies. Not an auspicious trend where nuclear warheads on hypersonic missiles are involved.

@ karlof1 | Apr 5 2022 0:19 utc | 169

Where hostility comes from?

My goodness. That seems a theological question, like how evil originates: ponderable, but forever unsettled. My point in framing it that way, at least for myself: Questions like that are best answered introspectively, to start with. Then on to extrospection: meditative empathy.

I'm residing in Richmond Annex, exactly east of the Golden Gate. Right on the bayshore there is the Astra Zeneca site: an exotic dump of experimental poisons for more than a century, one of the most toxic sites on planet Earth. I've hiked there, with my dogs. Maybe that accounts for our superpowers.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Apr 5 2022 8:33 utc | 226

General Cloutier does not appear to be denying that he is in Mariupol, or custody, or dead.

Posted by: John Kennard | Apr 5 2022 8:42 utc | 227

@ 214 Brannagh, thank you for your comments, I just watched Vassily Nebenzia’s press conference from April 4th, and I thought it was helpful.

He is very careful in his wording. He says the provocation was staged — that’s why it’s fake. He doesn’t deny that deaths are happening. It’s fake because it was a staged event. And he does include video of the mayor rejoicing in the liberation of Bucha from Russian troops (no word on atrocities) and he shows a video of Ukrainian troops walking and driving through the streets (and speaking with a man on a bicycle at one point). He also states that more information will becoming available and he’ll have more to report in his press conference on April 5th.

https://media.un.org/en/asset/k1u/k1uucq2mcm

Speaking of foreign mercenaries— this report by Canada’s Global News includes Daniel Bilak, a former Toronto lawyer, who’s now a member of Ukraine’s Territorial Defence Force. Mr. Bilak, not a professional soldier, would be treated how exactly in his comings-and-goings around Ukraine??

https://globalnews.ca/news/8731379/ukraines-citizen-soldiers-the-last-line-of-defence-against-russia/

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Apr 5 2022 8:44 utc | 228

In the liberated city of Bucha, Kyiv region, special units of the National Police of Ukraine began clearing the area of ​​saboteurs and accomplices of Russian troops.

This was reported on Facebook by the National Police of Ukraine.
https://www.unian.ua/war/bucha-u-zvilnenomu-misti-rozpochali-zachistku-teritoriji-vid-diversantiv-ta-rosiyskih-posobnikiv-novini-kiyeva-11770498.html
You may have to translate

Posted by: francescange | Apr 5 2022 8:46 utc | 229

Well Russia better watch out now with New Zealand opposing its actions in the Ukraine! (or should that be "e ealand" now because N looks like a Z on its side and w looks like one v beside another.)

Silly Cindy is pushing the Nato bullshit at the same press conference she is announcing the etreat in covid restrictions. She looks like she is under a lot of pressure and would sooner be somewhere else. Its all been "bloody hard" for everyone, she has said.

www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-s-message-to-russian-president-vladimir-putin-amid-war-crime-accusations.html

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has a message for her Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin: "Russia will be held to account".

Her comments came after Ukraine accused Russia of war crimes in the town of Bucha just outside the capital Kyiv, where a mass grave has been discovered a month after the area was taken over by Russian troops.

Even before Bucha, Ukraine and its Western allies accused Russian forces of targeting civilians indiscriminately, citing the bombing in the southern port of Mariupol of a maternity hospital and a theater marked as sheltering children.


Ardern announced on Monday that New Zealand will respond with fresh sanctions against the Russian Federation, which will be laid out this week.

"The reports of Ukrainian civilians who had been killed, raped and severely wounded by Russian troops is beyond reprehensible," Ardern said at her post-Cabinet press conference.

"Russia must answer to the world for what they've done. It goes without saying that these atrocities are against international law."

Ardern said New Zealand has joined the international community in referring Russia to the International Criminal Court and is supporting prosecutors in their investigations into all alleged war crimes committed in Ukraine.

"Certainly, what we as an international community are seeing are evidence of war crimes at the hands of Russia," Ardern said.

"When it comes to then going through the process of determining that that is indeed what has occurred based on the evidence we've seen, that is something that we are supporting a formal process around.

"Ultimately, it is for the International Criminal Court to make that determination but I think the evidence is there and New Zealand is supporting the prosecutors and gathering that evidence and making sure that Russia is held to account."

Ardern stopped short of labelling Putin a war criminal, as her United States counterpart Joe Biden has done.

"I'm not the judge in the International Criminal Court," Ardern said. "But every piece of evidence points to the fact that there are war crimes being committed by Russia in Ukraine at the hands of the President, Vladimir Putin."

Last week the Government dispatched nine New Zealand Defence Force analysts to Britain and Belgium to assist with the response to Russia's full-scale invasion of its former Soviet neighbour, which began on February 24.

The Defence Force will also help European partners by gathering intelligence about the war during their night time hours, "taking advantage of the time zone difference".

The week before that, the Government announced a $5 million donation to NATO [the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation] for non-lethal military aid to support Ukraine. It would be primarily directed to the NATO Trust Fund which provides fuel, military rations, communications and military first aid kits to support Ukraine.

The Defence Force also provided 1066 body armour plates to the Ukrainian forces, along with 473 helmets and 571 camouflage vests.

The Government has so far spent more than $10 million supporting Ukraine and so far 252 visas have been granted for the family members of Ukrainians in New Zealand.

The Government first responded to the invasion in February by banning the export of goods intended for use by the Russian and Belarus military and security forces, and imposing travel bans.

The Government then joined its allies by imposing sanctions on Russians associated with Putin.

The Russia Sanctions Act gives the Government power to freeze the assets of Putin and 12 members of his Security Council, as well as prohibit their vessels and aircraft. The law also bans certain people and companies from moving their money and assets to New Zealand to escape sanctions imposed by other countries.

So far, 460 individuals and entities have so far been targeted in the sanctions, and more will be announced.

"Cabinet considered further measures we can take to support Ukraine which will send a strong message to Russia," Ardern said on Monday.

"We'll provide updates across the course of this week."

Posted by: tucenz | Apr 5 2022 8:47 utc | 230

Sorry, that should be retreat not etreat in the 3rd line of comment - tucenz | Apr 5 2022 8:47 utc | 226

Posted by: tucenz | Apr 5 2022 8:54 utc | 231

Sorry, that should be retreat not etreat in the 3rd line of comment - tucenz | Apr 5 2022 8:47 utc | 226

Posted by: tucenz | Apr 5 2022 8:54 utc | 232

Re the NYT article. The date they provide is March 19 and yet the film and pictures show the body of a person with a bicycle and a very alive and healthy looking dog tied to the bicycle after 3 weeks? I think someone took the playing with the emotion of the audiences a bit too far.

There must be an independent investigation (I suppose the UN?) because whoever is responsible, these were human beings that lost their lives and have families and friends.

Posted by: maria | Apr 5 2022 9:01 utc | 233

On a tangent, these foreign nationals signing up to help defend Ukraine brought to mind the Blues Brothers, on a Mission from God

https://youtu.be/-4YrCFz0Kfc

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Apr 5 2022 9:06 utc | 234

Even a squirrel knows what needs to be done with a member of the Empire of Lies.
Take him down.

https://twitter.com/Z_Irina_V/status/1510694761316986889

Music in the above video is from an extremely well done TV series made in the Soviet Union. The part of Dulles meeting in Switzerland in the series is historically accurate. Don't know about the particular conversations, but the "activity" there is as shown in this show.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeen_Moments_of_Spring

Personally I never get bored watching it again. The acting is super.

It's worth looking back. Here is a nice description of how these "Srebrenicas" are manipulated and later buried deep in the public memory hole. If the manipulators are ever mentioned, it is usually in a program shown at 11 PM or in an article 10-15 years later.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130513194903/http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/07/02/nato-tied-to-muslim-slaughter-at-srebrenica/">http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/07/02/nato-tied-to-muslim-slaughter-at-srebrenica/">https://web.archive.org/web/20130513194903/http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/07/02/nato-tied-to-muslim-slaughter-at-srebrenica/

Sean Penn is probably licking his chops to get started on the Oscar winning film "The Martyrs of Bucha". That recent trip to Ukraine was probably to get necessary on the ground imagery to make such a film. Was Sean in the vicinity of Bucha ? CIA/MI6 probably know.

Posted by: Tom_12 | Apr 5 2022 9:26 utc | 235

https://t.me/c/1262772134/8821

#18+
В украинских пабликах распространяется фотография убитого пленного. Это зверство распространяют, как перемогу. На фото видно, что у военного глаза завязаны белым скотчем, а голова пробита, скорее всего ударом тупого предмета.

Подобные факты издевательств над пленными должен видеть каждый, чтобы понимать, против какого зла идёт война.

Ukrainian online communities are circulating a photo of a murdered war prisoner. This atrocity is being propagated as a triumph. In the photo one can see that the soldier had white sticky tape put over his eyes, and his head was most likely smashed open as a result of a blow with a blunt instrument.

Everyone has to see such facts of torture of prisoners so that they come to realize what kind of evil the war is being waged against.

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 5 2022 9:37 utc | 236

I not that Biden wants alleged Russian 'War Crimes' investigated by the ICC (ripe this given USA is not party to the ICC and refused entry to an officer from it investigating USA War Crimes in Afghanistan). A British prosecutor is allegedly investigating these these so called crimes. The West really are desperate and in serious desperation mode now. I take it the ICC prosecutor will be investigating the war crimes quite clearly documented and video'd perpetrated on the Russian POWs, the war crimes in Abu Graib by the USA and UK armed forces and the detainees in Quantanamo Bay. Not to mention the massacre at Odessa. I am utterly sick and tired of this outright corruption, of the ponzi scheme of lies, of the industrial levels of propaganda against Russia. All this for a tin pot Dictator (Zelensky) who defended the Azov Battallions, has never condemned the actions of the Ukranian Armed Forces in the massacre of their own civilians (shooting what are perceived to be Russian Collaborators. It is quite obvious this is a false flag. The truth will out. There is no end to the dirty tricks Zelensky and others will pull to destroy Russia. What a shit show. God Bless President Putin. He is changing the world order and has the courage to do so. The West have nothing other than hysteria, deep, vengeful hatred, lies, more lies and a distinct lack of intelligence. It speaks volumes that the EU are sending an investigation team that will work with the Ukranian military to collect evidence of war crimes without so much as an acknowledgement that the Ukranian military is responsible for these atrocities as 6 seconds into the video shows a police officer being given the go ahead to shoot civilians wearing white arm bands. The evil politicians in the West will pay the ultimate price with destroyed economies, probably people's revolutions, massive civil unrest and possibly civil war.

Posted by: Jo Dominich | Apr 5 2022 9:41 utc | 237


Regarding the running waterdrop and the dead man apparently moving in the rearview mirror I havent' made up my mind - but even if a closer examination should indicate that these persons (or others) are actors: this in no way means that all other bodies are also actors. "They" might intentionally have added some actors to the dead on the street, bad actors who move when being filmed, to create easy-to-debunk disinformation (in this case "all bodies are actors"). In the hope many jump on this bandwagon and can be smeared as callous.

False flag researchers call this kind of attacks "hybrid". The Boston Marathon Bombing was such a hybrid false flag attack, with real victims but also actors, to blur the picture.

Posted by: mk | Apr 5 2022 9:43 utc | 238

The New HYork Times says that satellite images show the bodies had been lying in Bucha for weeks, hence Russia is guilty.

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/events/1511068159691960325

Posted by: Jonathan W | Apr 5 2022 9:47 utc | 239

Here's some real war crimes that I dont see any western politicians jumping up and down about

https://southfront.org/execution-of-russian-pows-by-afu-and-georgian-fighters-on-march-30-video-21/

Posted by: vector | Apr 5 2022 9:56 utc | 240

Posted by: mk | Apr 5 2022 9:43 utc | 234

One of the very best things you can find at Biblioteca Pleyades is a veritable treatise on this kind of stuff, I wonder if you're pulling from the same place.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Apr 5 2022 9:47 utc | 235

Ah yes, wartime satellite imagery, something that didn't get its credibility shot down like 20 years ago, not at all.

Posted by: Arganthonios | Apr 5 2022 10:02 utc | 241

Posted by: Arganthonios | Apr 5 2022 10:02 utc | 236

yes, for those who might be wondering, satellite images also "proved" Iraq had weapons of mass destruction:

https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/powells-photos/2/

Posted by: Jonathan W | Apr 5 2022 10:10 utc | 242

@mk, #234
Would you classify 9/11 as a hybrid false flag?
Seems like a logical conclusion that I didn’t consider fully enough previously.
Thank you for the food for thought.
Now, about Covid???
Read much.
Still confused as f*ck.
The host and contributors here are some intelligent, thoughtful MFers.
Promote information overload.
Nothing more for me to say.

Posted by: $outhpaw | Apr 5 2022 11:20 utc | 243

MoA is again sitting here with open pants and the same with you commenters, as always. I very well remember how you tried to defend the loudmouth Igor Strelkov, the coward with a gun and no eggs in 2014 after killing 300 passengers of the MH17 flight.

First boasting yourself with shooting down an "ukrainian aircraft", then hours later when you taste the shit from the fan blaming someone else. That's happening again, first applauding Kadirow`s bloodhounds but now when you see the results trying cowardly to blame the victims.

You and your host have just a head full of stupidity, no principal political convictions which would guide you through the class fights of the day so you just side with the enemy of your enemy regardless of his open fascism face

Posted by: thomas | Apr 5 2022 11:20 utc | 244

https://rumble.com/vzn4yg-the-first-casualty-of-war-is-truth-live-wscott-ritter.html
Great interview with Ritter- sorry if posted b4. Shape the battlefield, or have 10 bongs-

Posted by: col from OZ | Apr 5 2022 11:36 utc | 245

A good article from Consortium News on the Bucha Massacre that has cleared my doubts.

https://consortiumnews.com/2022/04/04/questions-abound-about-bucha-massacre/

Posted by: maria | Apr 5 2022 11:41 utc | 246

A question to all:

Isn't it entirely possible that the Russians would have mined the city of Bucha with remote surveillance units left to gather intelligence long after they'd left?

It seems a simple and effective thing to do, and one would think they'd have learned the utility of such a tactic by now...

If they have, they may already be in possession of conclusive evidence of a false/fake flag.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 5 2022 12:08 utc | 247

Posted by: thomas | Apr 5 2022 11:20 utc | 239

the open fascism face is worn by Ukraine.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Apr 5 2022 12:13 utc | 248

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 5 2022 12:08 utc | 242

I like your devious mind. Its a good idea but how would you chose where to put these units ? To avoid Buchas I think this would not work as we have no way to know where the Empire of Lies would want to stage their theater.

If I had an R&D budged, I'd develop a small drone which could attache itself to a building, poles, trees etc. , turn off its engine and then work in surveillance mode (silent). Quietly observing an area. I'd fly these things in at night so as to minimize being noticed. Gather data then transmit, or record and then fly back to base.

Posted by: Tom_12 | Apr 5 2022 12:19 utc | 249

Posted by: thomas | Apr 5 2022 11:20 utc | 239

goddamn I hope you're right.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Apr 5 2022 12:22 utc | 250

Posted by: pretzelattack | Apr 5 2022 12:22 utc | 245

that was supposed to be a reply to Arch Bungle.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Apr 5 2022 12:23 utc | 251

It's you 239, SBU planned ( Like Bucha ) the downing of MH17. 100% certainty can be known by testing the Receipt number/Serial number paper that Moscow produced. Electron level microscopes can reveal the age of the 'paper' that says it was sent Western Ukraine in 1986. It would be possible to have impartial experts confirm this. Make it part of a process that if 'expert gets correct age in a blind sample the person gets 100k. But they the Dutch/Australian wont do that-cause it shows the Russians innocent.
Also here is more conformation of a older Buk using 'square scapnel' proven by the Russians , again the fake 'investigations knows nothing.
https://twitter.com/MihajlovicMike/status/1505252548227313670
You don't have your pants wide open, your naked!- and it ain't a pretty picture.

Posted by: col from OZ | Apr 5 2022 12:25 utc | 252

EU politbüro now bans coal and fertilizer imports from Russia.

Braindead policy rate increases and obviously seeks to boost inflation while they still believe they're in control of the situation and their "strong economy" can weather the fallout.

War is an accelerator of history indeed.

Posted by: Nervous German | Apr 5 2022 12:36 utc | 253

Posted by: Nervous German | Apr 5 2022 12:36 utc | 248

Dear Nervous German,
Time you guys and girls got off your arses and kick that Deutchland Uber Alles govt the fuck out of power!

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 5 2022 13:00 utc | 254

Another false flag?

https://t.me/c/1262772134/8878

Diego Novalis, [05/04/2022 11:38]
[Forwarded from Russian Head]
[ Photo ]
MORE STAGING IS PLANNED

Today is April 5th, 2022.

A source has just reported that Christian Lowe - a very famous journalist from Reuters News agency is preparing a material about Bucha.

He is planning to film a staged execution of civilians using Ukrainians dressed trophy Russian military uniforms.

@russianhead
media blocked News and Z Updates
Together for the new world!

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 5 2022 13:26 utc | 255

More staged events planned:

🇷🇺🇺🇦❗️Last night in Moshchun, 23 km northwest of Kyiv, soldiers of the 72nd Ukrainian main center of psychological operations conducted another staged filming of civilians allegedly killed by the violent actions of Russian troops - for distribution through Western media, the Russian Defense Ministry reports.

Similar events are now organized by the Ukrainian special services in Sumy, Konotop and other cities, the Russian military department adds.

https://t.me/intelslava/24393

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 5 2022 13:37 utc | 256

Spanish TV

https://t.me/intelslava/24406

🇺🇦 🇪🇸 On the air of the Spanish TV channel, a refugee from Ukraine, who is in Poland, admitted the fact of torture of civilians by the Ukrainian security forces

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 5 2022 13:40 utc | 257

🇺🇦🇷🇺 In Mariupol today, more than 30 soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine surrendered, left with their hands up in the area of kindergarten 91 on the Left Bank.

We also learned that "Azov" distributed its fighters among the units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine - one nationalist "layer" for 10 Ukrainian soldiers, just in order to prevent surrender. From there, there are constant rumors about shootings between the “Azov” and the Armed Forces of Ukraine: if you want to go out, you need to get rid of the “Azov” who will shoot in the back

https://t.me/intelslava/24413

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 5 2022 13:42 utc | 258

The European Union instructs member countries to use less Russian gas, oil and coal. There is a similar story about a farmer who taught his donkey to eat less and work more, but unfortunately just when the donkey had learned to work without eating any food at all, the animal died.

Posted by: Passerby | Apr 5 2022 14:10 utc | 259

@174 I just learned that Russians troops have been raping Ukrainian children and branding women with swastikas.

https://yahoo.com/news/russian-soldiers-rape-children-brand-100023213.html

Posted by: dh | Apr 5 2022 1:47 utc | 180

That is a photo of a Russian woman from Mariupol who was kidnapped by Azov. The was tortured and murdered. A bag was placed over her face, her arm was cut off, and a swastika was written on her chest in her own blood.

Posted by: Robert Lindsay | Apr 5 2022 14:15 utc | 260

"NYTimes, Apr 4 -- with quotes and comments
Satellite images show bodies lay in Bucha for weeks, despite Russian claims.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/04/world/europe/bucha-ukraine-bodies.html

Satellite images provided to The Times by Maxar Technologies show that at least 11 of those had been on the street since March 11, when Russia, by its own account, occupied the town.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 5 2022 2:27 utc | 190"

That makes NO sense! Yes there were bodies killed on that street a few weeks ago by artillery, 100% of them by Ukrainian artillery. 300 people in that town were killed by Ukrainian artillery. Most of them are buried in the mass grave in the church courtyard. The citizens started gathering up bodies killed by Ukrainian artillery and burying them in the mass grave on March 10 because the morgue was full and they have continued ever since. All artillery victims in Bucha have been hit by Ukrainian fire because Russia held the town all last month and Ukraine shelled it regularly.

There is NO WAY on Earth that those bodies sitting in that street have been there for three weeks! I doubt if they had been there more than a day. After Russia left, Ukraine continued to shell Bucha off and on for a few days. All of those people in smashed up and burned cars on that bridge, all those people sprawled out in the street - most of them have been killed by Ukrainian artillery! None of those bodies have been there much more than a day. I'm almost certain of that.

Posted by: Robert Lindsay | Apr 5 2022 14:21 utc | 261

"We just have to take the word of the Visual Investigations team at The Times!
Maxar Technologies Inc. is a space technology company headquartered in Westminster, Colorado, United States, specializing in manufacturing communication, Earth observation, radar, and on-orbit servicing satellites, satellite products, and related services."

Maxar are CIA glowies! Their headquarters is in Langley right next to the CIA building! And the New York Times has been a CIA glowie outfit forever.

Posted by: Robert Lindsay | Apr 5 2022 14:23 utc | 262

"I would think that the most compelling evidence that this is a false-flag is this: the moment the allegations were made it was the RUSSIANS who insisted on calling a UN Security Council session to debate it, and it was the UK who refused to allow that session to go ahead.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Apr 5 2022 2:29 utc | 191"

Exactly! There is NO WAY on Earth that a state would commit a series of horrible murders like this in wartime and then immediately demand an impartial investigation by a large team! That NEVER HAPPENS. Obviously, the British shut down the investigation because it was their false flag.

An opposition Ukrainian politician said that the Bucha false flag was carried out by the SBU glowies and planned by MI6 glowies. The British are afraid that their Azov false flaggers are going to be uncovered! BTW, it was MI6 that was behind most of the chemical weapons false flags in Syria, the fake attacks on the Skirpals and the murder of Litvinenko, who was killed with plutonium to frame Russia. The British head of the White Helmets, murdered by being thrown off a roof at his home in Turkey ("fell off the roof") was absolutely MI6. He got what he deserved too. You can't kill enough of those spooks to please me!

MI6 is one of the evil organizations on Earth. I've head that the CIA learned their craft from MI6.

Posted by: Robert Lindsay | Apr 5 2022 14:30 utc | 263

MoA is again sitting here with open pants and the same with you commenters, as always. I very well remember how you tried to defend the loudmouth Igor Strelkov, the coward with a gun and no eggs in 2014 after killing 300 passengers of the MH17 flight.

First boasting yourself with shooting down an "ukrainian aircraft", then hours later when you taste the shit from the fan blaming someone else. That's happening again, first applauding Kadirow`s bloodhounds but now when you see the results trying cowardly to blame the victims.

Posted by: thomas | Apr 5 2022 11:20 utc | 244

Shut up NAZI!!!! Get off the site. No Nazis or dogs allowed her. I see you are Far Left. This is what I call the "Nazi Left."

Everyone knows that Ukraine shot that jet down. Kadyrov's troops have been very well-behaved. Obviously everyone killed in Bucha was by the Ukrainians.

Is there any way Bernard can ban people on here?

Posted by: Robert Lindsay | Apr 5 2022 14:35 utc | 264

🇷🇺🇺🇦❗️Last night in Moshchun, 23 km northwest of Kyiv, soldiers of the 72nd Ukrainian main center of psychological operations conducted another staged filming of civilians allegedly killed by the violent actions of Russian troops - for distribution through Western media, the Russian Defense Ministry reports.

https://t.me/intelslava/24393

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 5 2022 13:37 utc | 25

Already happening. A "mass grave" was found in Moshchun along with a camp in the woods for Russian soldiers. The family of the female mayor of the town was supposedly "killed by the Russians" but that's not the case. The mayor was abducted on March 23. Nobody knows by whom. Russian troops left Moshchun on March 25. On April 3, very fresh bodies, dead no more than a day, were found in a mass grave in this town and identified as the bodies of the mayor and her family. The mayor had fresh blood on her face, so she had probably been dead less than a day.

RUSSIANS HAVE NOT BEEN IN THAT TOWN SINCE MARCH 25 AND THE BODIES HAVE BEEN THERE LESS THAN A DAY.

Word is that the Ukrainians murdered this female mayor and her family, but we don't know why. Possibly for "collaboration."

Sumy, Konotop and other cities,

They're going to do these crazy false flags in every single city that the Russians left. Azov and the SBU will go in and conduct of a sweep of "saboteurs and collaborators" and round up everyone who wore a white armband, got a K ration kit from the Russians, or received any aid from them at all. They will all be executed with hands tied behind back and a bullet in the head, exactly like in Bucha. Every single one of these will be presented as "murdered by Russians." The entire West will swallow all of it whole and the outrage dial will continue to be dialed higher and higher against Russia, more calls for war crimes investigations, more sanctions, more removal of ambassadors, and new calls for NATO military action.

100% of the Moron West will swallow every single line of these massive lies.
LOOK. It's been proven that no matter what sort of crazy false flag the Ukrainians do, they're all going to work. Not one of them has failed yet to my knowledge. So they have impunity to just keep doing them forever.

Posted by: Robert Lindsay | Apr 5 2022 14:45 utc | 265

Posted by: Robert Lindsay | Apr 5 2022 14:35 utc | 264

Lindsey,
Let them rant, it makes no difference and don't respond as that's what they want, and let me tell you, I've at been at this since about 1983, before the WWW even existed and it's always been this way. Ignoring the little pea brains is the best way to get rid of them.

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 5 2022 14:45 utc | 266

"yes, for those who might be wondering, satellite images also "proved" Iraq had weapons of mass destruction:

https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/powells-photos/2/

Posted by: Jonathan W | Apr 5 2022 10:10 utc | 242"

And Maxar is 100% CIA!

Posted by: Robert Lindsay | Apr 5 2022 14:47 utc | 267

Intel Slava Z, [05/04/2022 16:46]
🏳️‍⚧️🇷🇺 Google removes Russian Defense Ministry website from search results

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 5 2022 15:58 utc | 268

So it's not only NATO/US/UK/EU at war with Russia, Google has joined the fray. To paraphrase Joseph Stalin, 'How many divisions does Google have?'

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 5 2022 16:01 utc | 269

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 5 2022 14:45 utc | 266

Whoow, you're on the side of impeialists and war crimainals since 1983! Congratulations! I can imagine how fast your brain cells must turn around in order to be able to understand all the ramifications of imperialist logic, especially in Russia at the moment

the second original accumulation through the expropriation of the Russian people and the formation of an capitalist oligarch class and state obviously is your sole political program - poor brain cells!

Posted by: thomas | Apr 5 2022 16:10 utc | 270

thomas | Apr 5 2022 16:10 utc | 270

"the second original accumulation through the expropriation of the Russian people and the formation of an capitalist oligarch class and state obviously is your sole political program - poor brain cells!"

Let us assume you are right. What is the difference to the value-based West? That the oligarchs are better camouflaged since long?

Posted by: Hausmeister | Apr 5 2022 16:36 utc | 271

@ Barofsky | Apr 5 2022 16:01 utc | 269

google, twitter and facebook - all controlled by usa intel agencies.. in fact - they are great sleuthing tools for the intel agencies!! bought and owned by the agencies... nothing new here... no one ought to be surprised by this...

Posted by: james | Apr 5 2022 16:55 utc | 272

Lieber Hausmeister @271,

why do you think fighting one imperialist center means to align with the other one? Actually the capitalist basis is much broader in western countries, but surely they also have their oligarchs. But these are not the dominant forces in the capitalist class and state. Whereas in Russia mineral and agricultural extractivism connected with much deeper destruction of nature itself is the main basis of their profit system, together with the military complex.

Posted by: thomas | Apr 5 2022 17:10 utc | 273

thomas | Apr 5 2022 17:10 utc | 273

Thanks, interesting.
Let us start with this: " But these are not the dominant forces in the capitalist class and state." Assuming again you are right. Who is the dominant force then?
"Whereas in Russia mineral and agricultural extractivism connected with much deeper destruction of nature itself is the main basis of their profit system, together with the military complex."
One could argue about it. But that stopped for sure with fracking. Historically all mineral-extractive societies had a strong tendency to authoritarian hierarchical structures, even the Celtic at the Salzburg area. Not democratic for sure.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Apr 5 2022 17:41 utc | 274

Maybe you don't like to hear but as a mining engineer with a decades strong involvement into ecological issues I cannot distinguish between the dangers of fracking and those of "normal" gas (methan) production, they both destroy humankind's livelihood

Posted by: thomas | Apr 5 2022 17:59 utc | 275

As a biologist who touched the ecosystem approach end of the 60s I am not surprised at all. But I still cannot see the gain of this argument within this particular context.
And agaain: Who is the dominant force then? In the West, I mean.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Apr 5 2022 18:07 utc | 276

A lot of discussion: is there a dominant faction in the western capitalist hemisphere? Finance, service, industry, mining, military? much more difficult compared to Russia, so I cannot give you a distinct feature, sorry for the complexity of the world

Posted by: thomas | Apr 5 2022 18:17 utc | 277

thomas | Apr 5 2022 18:17 utc | 277

You started with an attack on

Barofsky | Apr 5 2022 14:45 utc | 266

You should take it back now and use a kind of excuse as you do not offer a better insight. I would not accept that the more complex authoritarian side is the better one, especially when it starts endless wars and lies. - In this particular problem it is quite easy: I look at the status of 1900 and of now and then I know who is the agressor. Must not be a complex thing as you see. I disklike any authoritarian but regard the less warmongering one to be a bitter better.
And one advice to @all: if figures remotely connected with this MI6 subculture appear and start with some filming equipment run away as quick as you can!

Posted by: Hausmeister | Apr 5 2022 18:37 utc | 278

Sorry, 1990, not 1900. Cannot edit my comment.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Apr 5 2022 18:38 utc | 279

I can hardly believe the Ukrainians are still hunkering down & fighting at this point, right b?
here's some 'good news' from Mariupol. again, shot down

Who are they trying so vociferously (and unsuccessfully) to evacuate?
maybe some of those french, americans and brits supposedly holed up there in that enormous steel works area


https://twitter.com/RWApodcast/status/1511398258060443656
Russians With Attitude @RWApodcast

The Russian MOD claims that two helicopters have been shot down near Mariupol, it is suspected that they were supposed to evacuate Azov leadership (same already happened earlier). Considering how little Kiev cares for Azov, I'm not sure it's *them* the choppers wanted to evacuate
12:39 PM · Apr 5, 2022·

Posted by: michaelj72 | Apr 5 2022 18:42 utc | 280

The NY Times analysis implies that dozens of bodies were strewn about the suburb and lay in the street for some weeks. That doesn't seem possible, and the recorded reactions of the area's mayor as well as the NY Times photojournalist in the 48 hours after the Russian troops had left are not at all consistent with such a scene.
Why not possible? Here we are only talking about a dozen bodies, not the entire hundreds killed. A dozen victims of shelling would not be something huge in a war like this, and the mayor of course would not want to draw attention to it since, if this narrative is true, they would be victims of Ukrainian shelling.

It is possible the stage-managed scene which appeared Sunday morning featured corpses from a local "cleansing" operation as well as repurposed civilian casualties from previous shelling events.
Quite possible, could also include killed soldiers dressed in civilian clothes, etc., I'm sure the ones who are behind this propaganda campaign thought of many things, and the Empire does have extensive experience staging war crimes and accusing others of its own war crimes. They could have added a few hand-tied corpses to the ones already in the street, etc., all of this would be revealed by forensic examinations and autopsies, but guaranteed none of that will happen, why risk turning a massive propaganda victory into defeat? (Well that wouldn't happen anyway since the ultimate results would not be reported anyway.)

Posted by: CalDre | Apr 5 2022 18:46 utc | 281

@ michaelj72:

I’m sure those helicopters were intending to rescue the Azov leadership…consisting of Brits, Frogs, Amis, and the “neutral”, “non-NATO” Swedes…

Posted by: malenkov | Apr 5 2022 18:53 utc | 282

Posted by: Hausmeister | Apr 5 2022 18:37 utc | 278
I started?

Let them rant, it makes no difference and don't respond as that's what they want, and let me tell you, I've at been at this since about 1983, before the WWW even existed and it's always been this way. Ignoring the little pea brains is the best way to get rid of them.

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 5 2022 14:45 utc | 266

Posted by: thomas | Apr 5 2022 18:58 utc | 283

Aleph_Null @226--

Thanks for your reply. Yes, that question tends in the direction you suggest. Humans must evolve to the point where Others are no longer seen and replaced by Sameness. The Asians and Russians seem closer to achieving that than the West where it remains an important tool for control. I often transited that area of Richmond when I lived in San Jose to visit family in Cloverdale 20+ years ago. We're separated by @10 hours of driving based on my trips from here in Oregon to the Bay Area.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 5 2022 19:12 utc | 284

259 - Buridan's Ass had a somewhat different problem. Unable to choose between two identical piles of straw placed before it, it died of starvation. Buridan's Ass seems to have been rather stupid.

Posted by: Waldorf | Apr 5 2022 19:18 utc | 285

thomas | Apr 5 2022 18:58 utc | 283

Sorry, did not recogize it. With such rants we just waste our time. - Sorry I have to go to bed and again I do not know who control the world, in the West. :-(

Posted by: Hausmeister | Apr 5 2022 19:20 utc | 286

Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 5 2022 14:45 utc | 266

I will take it to heart. Is this idiot taking the side of Ukraine? If so then he's deranged but it makes sense. The American Left has been completely useless for quite some time now. They hate the Left all over the world for being "fascist" and they hate all existing and prior Communist countries except I guess the USSR until 1927. Yep, you got that right, they're Trotskyites! Most Western Lefties are Twats or even worse Maoists. And now there is a new form that is even worse and that is anarchists. Both are extreme purists and hate almost all of the rest of the Left for not being Left enough.

And they rant and rage about social conservatism in places like Russia, China, and Iran. Apparently social conservatism = fascism! Yep, anarchists will literally call me a fascist and punch me in the face for opposing transsexual bathhouses for all ages or whatever the latest degenerate fad is. For instance, all of the above types say China is not Communist. Instead it is "state capitalist" - no such thing, or if there is, it's a good thing. They say Russia is "fascist." Iran also is "fascist." Actually Russia and Iran are on the left of the political spectrum in my book. Iran is one of the most socialist countries on Earth.

Also the Western Left proposes insane projects that have never been adopted in any Communist state and will be laughed at in any existing Communist country. A good example is "prison abolitionism." You think that's going to fly in Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Bolivia, Honduras, China, Vietnam, or Laos? Get outa here! As such the Left outside the US ignores these clowns. The only group the foreign Left has relations with is the Communist Party USA, which is actually fairly sensible compared to the rest.

I'm usually pretty controlled but with this war, I'm starting to get emotional and angry in a physical sense. I don't mind being intellectually angry. That's my normal state. But when I get emotionally angry, I tend to blow up and say and do stupid things. I even have pills I take when I feel myself getting angry and they work quite well to calm me down. The world's going to suck either way whether you're mad about it or not. My getting angry doesn't change one damned thing other that cooking me up a stroke or a heart attack. It doesn't even lead to good prose. It leads to rants that turn readers off.

Posted by: Robert Lindsay | Apr 5 2022 19:46 utc | 287

march 31sr Zhan Beleniuk, a deputy of the Ukrainian parliament, also reported about visiting Bucha after regaining control by the Ukrainian government.
No dead bodies on the streets were mentioned. Both statements were made in a joyful manner without any reservations about atrocities.

Posted by: george | Apr 5 2022 21:28 utc | 288

A lot of discussion: is there a dominant faction in the western capitalist hemisphere? Finance, service, industry, mining, military? much more difficult compared to Russia, so I cannot give you a distinct feature, sorry for the complexity of the world

Posted by: thomas | Apr 5 2022 18:17 utc | 277

Walter Karp, in his limited, flawed and now (as far as political detail goes) badly outdated classic study Indispensable Enemies (1973) of the fake "two-party system" ruthlessly blocking real democracy in the Anglosphere, points out thst great wealth is generally rolled up by political means in that system, with, of course, the expectation that wealth will act as "megadonor" at election-time.

There has been an obvious and amusing present-day pattern of this in the US, where the dominant wing of the "two-Party Party," the Democrats, start making noises about reigning in "Big Tech," the Internet surveillance-gatekeeping monopolies established under Obama, after which the favored pre-primary candidates all fly out to California to fund-raise, after which the noises about "reining in" subside:

I call it the "Silicon Valley Shakedown."

The point is that the political bosses and their manufactured wealths are two faces of the same counterfeit coin.

Posted by: John Kennard | Apr 5 2022 23:15 utc | 289

IMPOSSIBLE for Russia to lose the war, for all Ukraine troops suffer encirclement,
and death by starvation, lack of fuel and no ammunition is no way to die a hero.

Posted by: John Ellis | Apr 7 2022 16:22 utc | 290

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