Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 9, 2022
More Evidence That Ukraine Fired The Missile Which Killed Dozens In Kramatorsk

This is a follow on to yesterday's Ukrainian Tochka-U missile strike on the Kramatorsk railway station. Russia no longer has Tochka missiles (search for Tochka in the pdf) while the Ukraine, Belarus and several other states still use them.

There is now additional evidence that the missile was fired by Ukrainian forces. The facts do not matter in 'western' media who stick to whatever story they are told to produce. Still, I do believe that facts matter at least in the long term and that there is a historic value in documenting them.

The Tochka-U is a tactical missile with a maximum range of some 120 kilometer. It is typically fired from a transporter, erector, launcher vehicle (TEL) with little need of preparations.

The TEL vehicle for the Tochka is a six wheeled BAZ 5921 /5922. These are amphibious floating hull chassis. The picture below shows a BAZ TEL in parade mode with a Tochka missile slightly erected.  In the normal transport mode the missile lies horizontally under a protective roof.


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There were several claims of such vehicles being seen in Belarus or with Russian forces in Ukraine. But not every six wheeled BAZ vehicle can be said to be a Tochka missile TEL or Tochka transporter. There are various look alike variants of the vehicle with radar or communication equipment or simply used as transporters or ferries for all kind of goods.


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The Tochka missile, below in a firing position, consists of a rocket engine, four fins and grids to direct its course, a solid fuel compartment and a warhead at its front. A complete missile weighs about 2,000 kilogram.


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There are various warhead types available which weigh about 500 kilogram each.

The warhead which was used in Kramatorsk is a fragmentation one with 20 sub-munitions (gray) each with some 7.5 kilogram of explosives enclosed in a metal hull.


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Over the target area these sub-munitions get expelled and explode while still in the air and each one creates some 800 fragments. The warhead thus leaves no hole in the ground but expels a huge number of deadly metal fragments at high speed over a relative large area. The Tochka missiles are not very precise. They have a circular error probability (CEP) of some 150 meters. They are so called area weapons to be used against concentrations of infantry or unarmored vehicles.

After being fired the rocket engine propels the warhead towards is destination. Shortly before the impact the warhead separates from the booster section and continues its path while the rocket engine shuts down. Having lost its thrust and aerodynamic tip the relative heavy booster section will then tumble to the ground. If everything works as designed the booster section always falls short of the warhead section.

Which brings us to the scene in Kramatorsk. Several pictures from the scene show the booster section of the missile.


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The place where it landed was geo-located as being near a parking space some 60 meter west-southwest of the railway station. Here is the Google maps view of the railway station area. The warhead explosions happened on the east side of the station over the departure platform.

The location of the booster debris and where the explosion happened allows one to point out the trajectory from where the missile was fired. I have checked the locations depicted below and found them to be correct.

North is to the top. The station is encircled and the point is where the booster section landed. The arrow shows the trajectory the missile must have taken.


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Oh, the map is annotated in Russian and you don't trust Russian sources? Well, here is the New York Times posting a similar map.


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Here is map from Liveuamap depicting the current front lines in Ukraine. Kramatorsk is marked in yellow.


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Note that there are no Russian or Russia-aligned forces west-southwest of Kramatorsk within the 120 km maximum range of a Tochka missile. The missile must have been fired by Ukrainian forces.

Unsurprisingly the Russian military has come to the same conclusion:

An analysis of the engagement radius of the warhead, as well as the characteristic position of Tochka-U missile's tail section, clearly confirm that it was launched from a south-western direction away from Kramatorsk.

According to intelligence reports, one of the divisions of the 19th Missile Brigade armed with Tochka-U missile systems at the time of the strike on Kramatorsk was located near Dobropol'e in Donetsk Region, 45 km south-west of Kramatorsk.

This area is still under the full control of the Ukrainian military grouping troops in Donbass.

The publicly available evidence shows that the Ukrainian military must have fired the missile that killed some 50 Ukrainian civilians in Kramatorsk.

The only purpose of the attack I can think of was to create propaganda that, when distributed as 'Russian attack' through 'western' media, will create more military support for Ukraine.

Everyone who urges to give more arms to the Ukraine or who eggs it on to continue this war is guilty of creating impetus for more incidents like the one seen in Kramatorsk.

Comments

@ 197
and re b’s: Everyone who urges to give more arms to the Ukraine or who eggs it on to continue this war is guilty of creating impetus for more incidents like the one seen in Kramatorsk.
Now we see some German reluctance to provide arms to Ukraine, and it reminds me of wiki info on Ursula von der Leyen, President of the European Commission, and her remarks from seven years ago. . . .wiki: “At the Munich Security Conference in 2015, von der Leyen [then German Minister of Defence] publicly defended the German refusal to supply Ukraine with weapons. . .”
Of course Pepe has renamed von der Leyen as “Ursula von der Lugen” (i.e. lying) so there you go.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 9 2022 15:26 utc | 101

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Apr 9 2022 15:16 utc | 109

On a couple of occasions, Amy Goodman (of DemocracyNow!) had confided on the air about her Ukranian grandfather — whose spirit evidently inspires her to recurrently lie about the slaughter going on in the Donbass for the past eight years. Look at all the blood, the blood!

Same cultural background as Victoria Nuland apparently:

Amy Goodman was born to secular Jewish parents who were active in social action groups.[7][8] Her father, George Goodman, was an ophthalmologist.[9] Her mother, Dorothy Goodman, a literature teacher and later a social worker.[10] She has two brothers, David Goodman and Steven N. Goodman.[11] Goodman’s maternal grandfather was an Orthodox rabbi.[12][13]

Well, well. What a coincidence!

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 9 2022 15:27 utc | 102

Posted by: Opport Knocks | April 09, 2022 at 15:25
“4 cars on the west side of the building”, not east

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Apr 9 2022 15:27 utc | 103

Ursual v d L goes to Kiev. Boris Johnson goes to Kiev. Ergo NO reason to accept any refugees from Kiev since it is clearly safe and there is no reason to flee

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Apr 9 2022 15:30 utc | 104

“while the various payload components surmised to be cluster bombs are lighter and continue further.
Do you want to dispute that with all the other readers here?”
Prakash | Apr 9 2022 13:00 utc | 40
Come again? We appear to be using different physics. I suspect aerodynamics is the reason the warhead continues further.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Apr 9 2022 15:36 utc | 105

Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2022 11:30 utc | 7
I agree 100 Percent.There are people in the West – perhaps also among the Russians, I don’t know – who firmly believe that a nuclear war can be won. Winnable with high losses. These people are cynical and nihilistic enough not to shy away from it. By the time those who are being led to war with pseudo-moral arguments realise this, it will be irrevocably too late.

Posted by: Pnyx | Apr 9 2022 15:38 utc | 106

Posted by: thomas | Apr 9 2022 13:20 utc | 46
Not interested.
Go and naw on someone else’s nuts with your rubbish comments.

Posted by: Kim | Apr 9 2022 15:39 utc | 107

from State:
Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman met with Canadian Deputy Foreign Minister Marta Morgan in Washington, D.C. today. Deputy Secretary Sherman and Deputy Foreign Minister Morgan spoke about our coordinated response to President Putin’s unprovoked and unjustifiable war in Ukraine. //
. . .Saying “unprovoked” a thousand times makes it true, don’t you know, as with “ironclad.”

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 9 2022 15:39 utc | 108

Why did the emergency services arrive for the burning cars but not for the injured ?
Where are the emergency services for the injured? How come no ambulances, medics or even first aiders appear in the images?
Just armed guys with blue armbands ? Why are armed men at a civilian train station in the first place ??

Posted by: Lapin | Apr 9 2022 15:39 utc | 109

Ukraino-Atlantic politicians like Nuland & Freeland + CIA organized their first false flag massacre already in July 2014 with Malaysia Airways flight MH17 between Donetsk and Luhansk practicing on foreigners. They had their “proof” ready that Russia did it while the wreck was still smoking, a world record for terrorism investigations. Till today that narrative hasn’t been proven in any independent court.

Posted by: Antonym | Apr 9 2022 15:40 utc | 110

Posted by: Romanov | Apr 9 2022 15:41 utc | 122
I can accept that you’re at odds with me, for ideological or historical reasons or whatever.
But I don’t go to western NATOist or ukrainist webpages and spam them with my pro-russian pro-soviet stance, as much as I despise them they have a right to their own spaces, but that’s the same reason I don’t have to tolerate them here.

Posted by: Arganthonios | Apr 9 2022 15:47 utc | 111

..from Responsible Statecraft
Military do-somethingism is running amok in Washington
There seems to be a growing confidence that the US can join this conflict without running into unacceptable risks.

Military do-somethingism is running amok in Washington once again. Despite Russian military reverses and the withdrawal of Russian forces from the vicinity of Kyiv, there is an increasing clamor for some form of Western military intervention in the war in Ukraine from quite a few prominent analysts, pundits, and even some reporters.
According to the interventionists, the United States and its allies are either already “at war” with Russia in a grand ideological struggle, or they shouldn’t be afraid to escalate and widen the conflict, or some combination of the two.
The Biden administration has been rejecting these demands for intervention so far, but the growing and high-profile agitation for entry into a potentially catastrophic war is a disturbing sign of how deeply biased in favor of military action our foreign policy debates remain after decades of conflict. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 9 2022 15:48 utc | 112

Is it only me?
There seems agreement among all that there was a missile attack on the station, and that dozens died because of the cluster warheads.
However it makes no sense to me that cluster warheads that spray out many thousands of deadly pellets will kill so many people, yet seemingly leave all the soft luggage untouched – I can see no holes or tears in the photographed luggage.
Cluster bombs destroyed cars by fire, but I can see no evidence of pellet holes in the metal of the cars.
The burned cars were parked under large street lights, which were untouched.
Seemingly also untouched are the train station windows, which appear intact.
I then see photos of the inside of a train with blood smeared on the floor and pieces of paper which suggest that a body was located there, but I do not see any pellet holes in the seats or the train side walls. All the train windows are intact.
Clearly an atrocity took place, but why is there universal acceptance that this was a missile explosion?

Posted by: RonP | Apr 9 2022 15:48 utc | 113

Please remember the reasoning behind the 9-11 Commission not investigating the likelihood of explosions at the WTC that day was because, according to the Commission, there were no explosions at the WTC that day, therefore there was no reason to investigate such a scenario. Simple really.
But what is important more than anything else is to protect the narrative at all costs.

Posted by: thecelticwithinme | Apr 9 2022 15:51 utc | 114

Arganthonios@123
Mate, I am passed that, we are cool now.
But i do recognize your anger.
Stoicism:
Courage
Justice
Wisdom
Temperance

Posted by: Ramonov | Apr 9 2022 15:54 utc | 115

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 9 2022 15:39 utc | 119
Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman met with Canadian Deputy Foreign Minister Marta Morgan in Washington, D.C. today. Deputy Secretary Sherman and Deputy Foreign Minister Morgan spoke about our coordinated response to President Putin’s unprovoked and unjustifiable war in Ukraine. //
. . .Saying “unprovoked” a thousand times makes it true, don’t you know, as with “ironclad.”
Key takeaway; No mention of unwinnable !!!

Posted by: Kim | Apr 9 2022 15:55 utc | 116

To everyone:
Stop feeding the troll. Whatever that trolling puke is, it copy-pastes the same horsecrap in order to derail the thread. Not the first, won’t be the last. Just keep the bar clean of such garbage.

Posted by: Constantine | Apr 9 2022 15:56 utc | 117

Perhaps we should have an encounter session thread?

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 9 2022 15:58 utc | 118

Still waiting to see evidence any of those 16,000 pieces of shrapnel made a hole in anything. Just checked the google image gallery and nothing. All the windows on track side of station still apparently intact.
Posted by: Oldhippie | Apr 9 2022 14:22 utc | 85
^^^ Yeah, my lying eyes are having trouble reconciling this Kramatorsk incident with an actual known Tochka-U strike on Donetsk. Kramatorsk seems a pale imitation compared to the destruction and carnage Patrick Lancaster filmed last month in Donetsk.

Posted by: Woogs | Apr 9 2022 15:59 utc | 119

@RonP – 125
You and others who claim there are no marks from the cannisters don’t seem to look very closely. There are numerous impact marks and the small pieces of fallen foliage are typical of areas hit by such weapons.

Posted by: Brannagyn | Apr 9 2022 16:00 utc | 120

The nationalist right has always had the mainstream against it. It seems to me, that this now makes them largely immune to the dominant narrative of total war against Russia.
Vaccinated! :-))
So it happens, that leftists like me hear only from people like Orban, Le Pen or Chupalla (German right wing AfD) what doesn’t make me throw up. Look at this servile UKUSA sucking german LINKE. It’s bizarre.
It is obvious now that anti-fascism in Europe is folklore. It is clear to me, that I have to check all my historical knowledge, from the role of the UKUSA in World War II to Assad’s role in the Syrian war.
From the perspective of all these shameless falseflag and propaganda actions that we are witnessing live in Ukraine today, after everything we are suddenly learning about fascism in Ukraine and Europe protecting it, after all this unbearable stupidity of closest friends, I will have to rewrite my internal book of recent history. And about democratic society.
Completely.

Posted by: njet | Apr 9 2022 16:02 utc | 121

Thank you b, you answered my question in yesterday’s thread. “That hunk of steel weighing several hundred ??? was nicely laid.”
This is part of the agenda to charge Putin with war crimes.
One tiny guess the entity charged with gathering the evidence.
Bellingcat
Kid you not. UK Foreign Sec. Liz Truss announced the West has cancelled Russia to eternity….”we can have no future engagement with them.”
The documentary evidence for ICC investigating Ukraine war crimes is in this UKColumn video wrap of the news of the week, aired yesterday, April 8. (No, UKC is not one of the paid legacy media.) Fast forward to 12.25 to 16 mins:
https://www.ukcolumn.org/video/uk-column-news-8th-april-2022

The ICC is investigating war crimes in UK – could Putin be indicted?
[..] Second new technologies make it easier to gather evidence such as images and recording of events, along with testimonies of victims and witnesses. The ICC will receive the extensive evidence gathered by organisations such as Bellingcat investigative journalism agency. Evidence from Ukrainian citizen’s mobile phones will also be available.[.]

Read and weep. And since there is no statutory limitations on bringing perpetuators of wars crimes to the docks,….there are a few running free with names – Clintons, Biden, Blair,,,,,

Posted by: Likklemore | Apr 9 2022 16:02 utc | 122

Posted by: krypton | Apr 9 2022 11:09 utc | 5
The old black is white argument.
Posted by: Bobaree | Apr 9 2022 11:50 utc | 12
In the early days of the opposition to the coup, Strelkov’s forces based in Slavyansk. The Ukraine forces were shelling and firing MLRS at the city from the high ground where the local TV transmitter mast was sited. Strelkov’s forces used shelling and MLRS to try to destroy the Ukraine forces firing at the city.
The Ukranian media showed this illustration of the main national TV station to ‘explain’ how the damage to the city was not caused by the Ukranians, rather by Strelkov’s forces.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/rigort/17193211/103471/103471_1000.jpg
The laws of physics work differently in Ukraine!

Posted by: Arfur Mo | Apr 9 2022 16:03 utc | 123

I noticed that in one of the earlier threads someone had mentioned previous false flag operations used to justify NATO involvement into a local fight, namely the incidents in Bosnia and Serbia in the 1990s. I find it curious that no one here has picked up on that theme, especially as they very successfully served NATO goals. Is it perhaps because many of the people who frequent this bar themselves believed those stories at the time. It would not have been unusual because my recollection is that NATO propaganda in those instances was much more effective than the current one. Many people in NATO countries still believe those stories. Perhaps, the internet does indeed make a difference. However, I think that the current false flag operations do not have the same goals as those in Yugoslavia because I do not believe that NATO is itching for fight with Russia. Perhaps they take Russian warnings seriously, especially those that promise to hit command and control centers in the west, both in Europe and the US.

Posted by: Pagan | Apr 9 2022 16:03 utc | 124

“Ursula von der Lugen” (i.e. lying) so there you go.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 9 2022 15:26 utc | 111
Ah, thanks for explaining. I thought he made a typo and meant “Ursula von der Luger”

Posted by: Arioch | Apr 9 2022 16:05 utc | 125

Is it only me?
Posted by: RonP | Apr 9 2022 15:48 utc | 125

Not only you, it is entirely possible that this was a staged production by the same folks who handled the Boston marathon bombing.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Apr 9 2022 16:05 utc | 126

@ RonP
No, it is not only you.
For example in the ‘luggage’ image you can see that the station ‘fence’ is a continuous screen of glass panels. Apparently all untouched. In fact, on reflection, all things glass have been spared.
Not to mention how do they land a weapon with 150m CEP exactly on the station forecourt ??

Posted by: Lapin | Apr 9 2022 16:07 utc | 127

thanks b… i appreciate your work… thanks to the many posters here as well…
@ Sushi | Apr 9 2022 14:07 utc | 79… yes, i agree with your overview with the exception that not everyone who is too busy to pay close attention will believe everything they read… i know there is always a part of society that will question the official narrative, no matter what.. i remain hopeful.. but i do agree with your post and it was cool you said all that!
i too agree with the poster who mentioned who gets something from this…. if you ask the question from this angle, it becomes very clear who benefits here – the western agenda of continuing to stigmatize russia in the most negative context, and to continue funneling and fomenting a long war in ukraine… there would be no value in russia doing this.. none whatsoever… of course the facts on the ground support this too..

Posted by: james | Apr 9 2022 16:08 utc | 128

@ thecelticwithinme
there were no explosions at the WTC that day
Not to mention: two planes amazingly demolish three towers; a bit of a giveaway.

Posted by: Lapin | Apr 9 2022 16:11 utc | 129

Is it perhaps because many of the people who frequent this bar themselves believed those stories at the time. It would not have been unusual because my recollection is that NATO propaganda in those instances was much more effective than the current one. Many people in NATO countries still believe those stories.
Posted by: Pagan | Apr 9 2022 16:03 utc | 136
In my particular case it’s because I’m too young. My political conscience begins with Iraq and Afghanistan.

Posted by: Arganthonios | Apr 9 2022 16:14 utc | 130

….the current false flag operations do not have the same goals as those in Yugoslavia because I do not believe that NATO is itching for fight with Russia.
Posted by: Pagan | Apr 9 2022 16:03 utc | 136
There should be minute details defferent indeed, but direction is the same: hostility.
For EuroUkraine, for example, pulling NATO into the war is the only chance to avoid defeat.
For EU/UK that is needed to build yet another Iron Curtain and shift the blame for impoverishment of their citizens.
For USA it would be ideal if EU and Russia clash in non-nuclear war, like they did in WW1 and WW2. Limited nuclear war would be worse option, but satisfactory unless nukes blast in America.
If there are some “annunaki”, that for decades were USA as a host and now want to relocate to next century hegemon of China, while turning USA into another Hitler, used to focus hate and whitewash all other crimes, then even nuclear war NATO/Russia would be ok.
The direction is the same, only sistance varies.

Posted by: Arioch | Apr 9 2022 16:17 utc | 131

The next f**K flags. Luhansk mayor told all the people to leave as “there would be a Russian attack”.
So a large tank of Ammonia/chemicals has been blown up in Severodonetsk.
https://twitter.com/CatEmporor/status/1512811643394306055/photo/1
****
The F**K Flag after that is planned in Irpin . (Russian MoD statement.)
Where cadavers of civilians taken from the local morgue will be “arranged” to look like a war crime – at which point the SBU will arrange a killing of Russian prisoners in a neighbouring wood, as they are supposed to be a “special group” who attacked to cover the said “”war crimes” up.

Posted by: Stonebird | Apr 9 2022 16:28 utc | 132

Me, I have nothing to say. It is what it is. It’s up to Putin and his team to make the decisions. But I agree with Mercouris that the next 5-6 months, and possibly as little as the next 2 or 3, are going to decide the outcome of this affair. Either the Russians wrap this up before the neocons can expand the war or they won’t.
As I mentioned before, if this turns into a shooting war between Russia and the West, you need a one-way ticket to South America or maybe New Zealand. At worst, the only relatively safe space in the US is northeastern Utah.

You do know that the USAF hypersonic missile just failed it’s latest test, and operational capability has been moved back to 2023 at the earliest.
That the much vaunted F-22 penetration fighter, is being phased out of service because the Russians/Chinese can see it on their RADARs.
That the much ballyhooed F-35 is not operationally capable because key components don’t work.
That the USN/NATO Navies attack missiles are sub-sonic, and fodder for the S-400 complex.
AND…..
That Russia/China have first strike capability vis a vis NATO…..
Which means…..
The NeoCons may get their war… vaporizing all NATO countries in the process…. including Utah…
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Apr 9 2022 16:28 utc | 133

1) Tochka-U is a ballistic missile. Meaning it travels on a set trajectory best visualized by the motion of a shot cannon ball.
https://tinyurl.com/2wkewk8r
2) The first stage is a solid state motor, whose job is to put the warhead on a terminal path toward the target following a ballistic path.
“The propulsion system.
The management system. The control system is autonomous, inertial, with an on-board digital computing system. The missile is controlled on the entire trajectory, which ensures high accuracy of hitting.”
“Двигательную установку.
Систему управления. Система управления — автономная, инерциальная, с бортовым цифровым вычислительным комплексом. Ракета управляема на всей траектории, что обеспечивает высокую точность попадания. “
3) Final maneuver when approaching the target.
“When approaching the target for more efficient use of the energy of the warhead explosion, the missile performs a maneuver (additional rotation along the pitch angle), which provides an angle of meeting the charge with the target close to 90°. For the same purpose, the charge axis of the high-explosive fragmentation warhead 9N123F is turned down relative to the axis of the warhead body at a certain angle. To achieve the maximum area of destruction, an air blast of the 9N123F warhead is provided at an altitude of 20 meters.”
“При подлёте к цели для более эффективного использования энергии взрыва БЧ ракета совершает манёвр (доворот по углу тангажа), что обеспечивает угол встречи заряда с целью близкий к 90° . С этой же целью ось заряда осколочно-фугасной БЧ 9Н123Ф развёрнута вниз относительно оси корпуса головной части на определенный угол. Для достижения максимальной площади поражения обеспечивается воздушный подрыв БЧ 9Н123Ф на высоте 20 метров.”
https://tinyurl.com/3dssav4j
If I understood correctly the above, they deliver the “package” coming down at 90 degrees to the ground by adjusting rocket motor in this direction. This makes sense. The warhead has aerodynamic shape thus is stable when moving straight downward toward the target.
4) Final separation mechanism of the warhead from the motor is not described in the above link but I found it here.
“After full guidance, the warhead is separated by a primary detonation in the desired direction, this is necessary for a more accurate hit of the warhead in the specified square.“
https://tinyurl.com/2s3dyp7n
From the above it appears that the motor and the warhead are traveling straight down together. Then at some point the two are separate from each other with some sort of charge which propels the warhead ahead of the motor.
The motor stage continues traveling 90 deg. downward but it will have a more erratic motion because it is not aerodynamically stable having lost its warhead cone. This is basically what was said by, —> Posted by: Observer | Apr 9 2022 13:30 utc | 52
https://tinyurl.com/2p8byy2j

Posted by: Tom_12 | Apr 9 2022 16:30 utc | 134

“Putin’s imperial madness”: Western experts, journalists and politicians all agree on the causes of the conflict in Ukraine. But looking outside the box quickly reveals that analysts in the Global South come to a different conclusion. Let’s follow a man, who has his home in Estelí, Nicaragua.”
Augusto Zamora Rodríguez is ambassador of Nicaragua to Spain and has an interesting facebook profile. He wrote a very good long read about the US and its “european chickens” in spanish here:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=3147570715559877&id=100009209377886
I also found it in german here:
https://clubderklarenworte.de/der-tod-europas/

Posted by: njet | Apr 9 2022 16:31 utc | 135

“The warhead thus leaves no hole in the ground but expels a huge number of deadly metal fragments at high speed over a relative large area.
The photo above (from the tweet of “Ukraine reporter” showing people lying on the ground and pieces of luggage at the station) is not compatible with this description …
not a drop of blood, no injuries to be seen, no torn clothes, no debris, the luggage looks perfectly fine … it all looks like an arranged scene …

Posted by: Ugly Rumours | Apr 9 2022 16:32 utc | 136

Posted by: Likklemore | Apr 9 2022 16:02 utc | 134
Posted by: njet | Apr 9 2022 16:02 utc | 133
Grandsons and granddaughters of high ranking nazis now in position of power all over Europe and North America, Fascism is back and politically most alternative is fascist as well …
Such interesting times!
Looks more and more like an interesting psychiatry disease …

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Apr 9 2022 16:33 utc | 137

Just a clarification regarding the photo I just mentioned I was referring to the previous MoA post
“…a-ukrainian-tochka-u-missile-killed-dozens-at-kramatorsk-train-station”

Posted by: Ugly Rumours | Apr 9 2022 16:35 utc | 138

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Apr 9 2022 16:28 utc | 147
Russia MUST have ability to kill all NATO SSBNs before striking NATO otherwise retaliation from SSBNs would be too costly to her.
Based on Russian Gov. confidence I suspect they have it – or believe they have it.

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Apr 9 2022 16:38 utc | 139

The markings (serial numbers) on the Missile have been filmed (at night).
Here they are.
https://twitter.com/abunin/status/1512795169950679049

Posted by: Stonebird | Apr 9 2022 16:39 utc | 140

Last year general milley announced that the greatest threat the US military faced was”white supremacy” in the USA.
This year it’s Russia.
Thomas shows us how they are spinning and combining the two narratives.
White supremacists in Russia!

Posted by: Wagelaborer | Apr 9 2022 16:39 utc | 141

I come to the much more probable conclusion (like @5) that the rocket came from ESE direction, 180° opposite, directly from the russian and pro-russian regions in the Donbass. The rocket motor has been detached east of the train station from the rocket but flew right over the station and landed west of it because the mass of these heavy parts still contain huge moving energy from the fast ballistic flight. The position of the motor still points in an WSW direction and is therefore proof that it came from the east, the Donbass
Posted by: thomas | Apr 9 2022 12:21 utc | 24

So, by your analysis, the booster overshot the warhead, magically passed through a power pole and a light pole, without damaging either of them, flipped 180 degrees,then reversed course to hit the ground leaving an impact trench from west to east?
Sounds plausible.

Posted by: The Owl | Apr 9 2022 16:42 utc | 142

LBC radio UK, this afternoon a LBC caller (discussing Ukraine and Russia) said that all Russians living in UK should be sent packing back to Russia, and to my surprise the host of the radio show agreed with the caller, I was pretty shocked by that.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 9 2022 16:46 utc | 143

I rushed to post about the serial numbers and was pleasantly surprised that I was late to the party. Great work keeping this blog informed, gentlemen. Sasha, Stonebird, anyone else I might have missed while skimming — well done.
Reportedly, it’s from the same release-batch of missiles that previously struck downtown Donetsk. The assumption as this point is that the strike was conducted by the same Ukrainian 19’th rocket brigade.
Strikes carrying the same signature S/N reportedly include: 04.09.14 Harchinsk, 02.02.15 Alchevsk, 13.02.15 Loginovo, 19.03.22 Berdyansk, 17.03.22 Melitopol, 11.03.22 Avdeevka.

Posted by: Skiffer | Apr 9 2022 16:49 utc | 144

Great job b.
Is there a post here that summarizes evidence that Kiev was preparing to launch an offensive against the Donbass, an attack that was preempted by Russia?

Posted by: dadooronron | Apr 9 2022 16:49 utc | 145

correction:
Augusto Zamora Rodríguez WAS ambassador of Nicaragua to Spain. He is a nicaraguan senior politician and is publishing about international politics and relations. Lives in Nicaragua.

Posted by: njet | Apr 9 2022 16:53 utc | 146

@Arganthonios
they have a right to their own spaces, but that’s the same reason I don’t have to tolerate them here.
There is only person on this blog who decides what gets tolerated here. That person is me.
And I do not tolerate commentators who disrupt the discussion by fighting other ones.

Posted by: b | Apr 9 2022 16:54 utc | 147

Despite the massive Western anti-Russia propaganda orchestrated by the USA, the immediate muting of all pro-Russia medias and the vicious efforts made by the UK in preventing Russia’s use international organization to defend its case, Russia is managing so well that the rage of the Western powers is increasing with the days
The cracks are showing in the original hysteria of the Western countries. After the euphoria of throwing sanctions after sanctions on Russia, they are now facing a painful reality. Yet they prefer to live in oblivion hoping that their citizen’s hatred for Russia and love for Ukraine will survive in the next few months when they would feel the sanctions blowing back on them.
Russia’s actions in Ukraine may last a few more months as it seems that the puppet Zelinski under the US Puppeteers wants the Oscar for his role in contributing to the total destruction of Ukraine.
The western countries will gradually feel the pinch. While the Russians fight themselves for their security, the West is counting on Ukraine to save them from the ‘Putin’ octopus. When Ukraine will totally collapse (and it probably will ), the Europe citizens will feel surprised that the hardship inflicted in them has not brought any security guarantees. Then the expected blow back will shake their impotent government. In Europe it is expected that some leaders will fall: Johnson, Scholtz, Van Leyden and others. Biden will lose the mid term election and in Canada Trudeau may be shaken…
The winners will be the ones that refused to sanction Russia and avoided to make their citizens suffer.
I wonder if Zelinski won’t be scapegoated for Russia’s victory…

Posted by: virgile | Apr 9 2022 16:54 utc | 148

Posted by: librul | Apr 9 2022 13:42 utc | 57
This is old news from 2016.
Oh the irony… There was a time, long long ago, when every french officials, including Nantes’ mayor (the city I work in), knew how nefarious Ukronazism was, from inception.
Blessed is the goldfish memory of the average western citizen…
FYI, an anguished regional news outlet article from 2016:
shorturl.at/iGJPS

Posted by: HerrHesser | Apr 9 2022 17:00 utc | 149

CC:
Russian Defense Ministry on the attempted breakthrough by the Apache dry cargo ship to Mariupol.
At 22:38 Moscow time, 30 km southeast of Mariupol, the dry cargo ship abruptly changed its course and tried to break through to the Mariupol seaport blocked from the sea by the Black Sea Fleet.
The Ukrainian dry cargo ship did not respond to the demands of the Russian border ships to contact them through the international channel and continued moving in the direction of the port of MARIUPOL.
Warning artillery fire from two border guard ships towards the ship didn’t change the course of the ship and slowed her down.
While moving to the port of MARIUPOL, the vessel was engaged in radio communication, transmitting the message “I am Maniak, coming to you. At the same time, signal fires were observed on shore.
To block the movement of the intruder ship, the ship of the Black Sea Fleet and the Border Patrol ships opened artillery fire at the Apache dry cargo ship from 22:53 to 23:30.
As a result of the direct hit, a fire broke out on the stern of the ship.
After that, the Ukrainian cargo ship went adrift and the crew communicated with the border guard ships with a request to cease fire and confirmed their readiness to comply with all the demands of the Russian sailors.
The fire did not cause any casualties among the crew of the ship. The fire was extinguished by the ship’s crew on their own.
After the inspection, the Ukrainian dry cargo ship and its crew are escorted to the port of Yeysk.

Posted by: sitrep | Apr 9 2022 17:07 utc | 150

Posted by: dadooronron | Apr 9 2022 16:49 utc | 160
It’s in Russian so use your favourite translation tool:
https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/7547487.html

Posted by: Boo | Apr 9 2022 17:09 utc | 151

@10 re: Jacques Baud. As a NATO Intelligence officer…retired…
Thank you for this link. I believe we can all use info presented with historical basis.
A must read! Use it on your frenemies. Its potent.
Thanks to the many posters who have provided similar info and perspective.
As a long time lurker who is trying to blunt the offensive<-- -->media in my small circle I am taking more grief than when DT was prez! So it goes.

Posted by: Michael | Apr 9 2022 17:12 utc | 152

serial number on remains prove it is a Ukrainian weapon. We all knew it anyway as RF haven’t had it in service since 2019. Lots of propaganda as always of course because that is the way the British and Americans want to run it. They dont care if theyre proven wrong, the evidence will never get into the mainstream press and even if it did the damaged is already in peoples, manufacturing consent with the lumpen masses who will say ‘seig heil’ all day long and be convinced that Nazis are good, swastikas are pretty and zelensky is a hero not a coke snorting drunken brainless puppet of the dementiad idiot in the White House is all that matters to the West.

Posted by: Boris | Apr 9 2022 17:13 utc | 153

Haven’t done a deep dive into this site:
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html
Does anyone know who it is operated by and if it legit or another pro West propaganda bs site?

Posted by: Et Tu | Apr 9 2022 17:16 utc | 154

Good report. Far more sane than anything in the media. While the range of fire shows it could have come from the Russian side the probability is that they were withdrawn from service and replaced by the Iskander system.
They may have been such systems still in the hands of the separatists. Here is a story from March unverified…
Ukrainian soldiers shot down a “Tochka U” missile from a Stinger
This is the type of old system the Ukrainians would have been holding onto and using and it is they type of system that the old Warsaw pact countries would still have and gladly dump into the Ukraine to spare them the expense of dismantling this out of date system.
Tochka: The Missile Ukraine Could Use to Attack Russia?
I cannot find any report of the systems sent to Ukraine but I found a list of countries they were allegedly sent…
“Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Kazakhstan, North Korea (Democratic People’s Republic of Korea), Russian Federation, Syria, Ukraine, Yemen”
OTR-21 Tochka (SS-21 Scarab) Russian Surface-to-Surface Short Range Ballistic Missile System
The two options are Donbass region or Ukraine. The list of export countries appear to be fairly short. Military it makes no sense for the Russian side to do this but plenty of sense for the Ukrainians in order to build up sympathy for more aid.

Posted by: circumspect | Apr 9 2022 17:16 utc | 155

I wonder if at any point we might get an analysis from someone like Prof. Theodore Postol on this …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 9 2022 17:21 utc | 156

thanks b… 12 posts gone just like that, lol…

Posted by: james | Apr 9 2022 17:26 utc | 157

@ RonP | Apr 9 2022 15:48 utc | 113
I suspect with the an high amount of horse manure.
1. It was a missile massacre.
2. It was a massacre.
Although insignificant by a word. Where are the stories from those relatives?

Posted by: Jason | Apr 9 2022 17:29 utc | 158

Posted by: b | Apr 9 2022 16:54 utc | 162
Look, I ‘m obviously not trying to undercut your role as host here, one because it would be stupid, two because I don’t have any means to do so besides raising my voice WITHIN YOUR platform, three because you don’t deserve it and it would be an ungrateful bastard thing to do.
If you want to give me any dos and dont’s, you even have an email contact to email me in private, because I mailed you regarding the latest upsurge of nazist propaganda. Just in case you don’t want to do it in the open.
Otherwise, whatever I said applies ONLY to my posts and attitudes, by no means do I want to do sabotage your blog, not to the least extent, I’d rather simply abandon it.
And no, I don’t want to antagonize you, if I knew what to do to NEVER antagonize you I would, even if I didn’t agree, simply out of gratefulness for this site.
If I came across as too full of myself I PUBLICLY APOLOGIZE, I have no control or claim over this space, which is b’s blog, I’m only a part of the commentariat and nothing more.

Posted by: Arganthonios | Apr 9 2022 17:30 utc | 159

Republicofscotland@143…..deported beats Interned any day, freedom or fenced in…..and they get the option. Such charity….from Brits no less.
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Apr 9 2022 17:31 utc | 160

Posted by: Likklemore | Apr 9 2022 16:02 utc | 134
Uk column news is excellent and has helped me connect a lot of dots.
It is all I need to see,no Msm for me in over 2 months,and I feel a lot more relaxed and sane as a result.

Posted by: Kim | Apr 9 2022 17:34 utc | 161

The Information War is playing out much like Syria, with concentrated spikes of shrieking and finger-pointing in support of rushed (or instant) analysis of presumed atrocities. Two of these spikes have just occurred in space of less than a week (Bucha / Kramotorsk), which may be “peak” atrocity, at least as far as the capability for Western publics to absorb the information rather than turning away or turning it off, as these spikes of outrage demand expended emotional energy on behalf of the consumer. I find simply scrolling through Google News headliness related to these events rather numbing. Hundreds of millions of dollars of public money have been directed into media information operations, first for ops connected to Syria followed by massive investments more generally over the last couple of years.
Other than the first chemical false flag, much of the MSM hysteria created over Syria was presented in context of distinct setbacks for the “rebel” side. Harder to know in this case, but there are indicators that Ukraine’s current military situation is not particularly sound.
Footage from the EU leadership visit to Bucha was absolutely ghastly as, previous poster noted, body bags were literally moved into position for display with best predetermined camera angles in mind. No independent forensic analysis is being permitted so there will never really be any settled account of what happened.
Rumour that high-ranking NATO personnel captured in Mariopul have been transferred to Crimea.

Posted by: jayc | Apr 9 2022 17:43 utc | 162

@ dadooronron | Apr 9 2022 16:49 utc | 145
Check out the link provided @10 and copied below. It’s great summary and analysis of the war by a knowledgeable and experienced former European intelligence officer. I’m especially skeptical of ‘former’ intelligence officials because they sometimes remain connected to their employers, but the author cites facts and gives links and references that check-out. It’s a lot longer than the tweets the indoctrinated rely upon for their news, but it’s thorough, evidence-based, and easy to read and understand. I’ve bookmarked it for reference and highly recommend it to you.
https://www.sott.net/article/466340-Is-it-possible-to-actually-know-what-has-been-and-is-going-on-in-Ukraine
h/t to KP for first posting and linking to it.

Posted by: DocHollywood | Apr 9 2022 17:43 utc | 163

President Biden tells us what defines America
https://youtu.be/6XIbbpZvQHs
The joke is on democrazy.

Posted by: Anne B | Apr 9 2022 17:44 utc | 164

@ Posted by: Et Tu | Apr 9 2022 17:16 utc | 154
FYI, i did a few minutes homework myself… at least 2 of the Oryx report authors also work for Bellingcat.
I will let people draw their own conclusions… as far as i know, there was never a piece of OSINT that Bellingcat didn’t like to distort to throw shade onto Russia…

Posted by: Et Tu | Apr 9 2022 17:52 utc | 165

Oh my, there are skinheads in Russia!? Yeah, I saw plenty there in the late 90’s. Neo-Nazism is common in societies where life just sucks in every way possible and there’s no apparent escape from the shittiness of it all. That’s why there are so many in Ukraine. Almost 30 years of “help” from the west and it’s far worse off than it started.
Not always, of course, plenty of neo-Nazi types in American police forces and the US military. But overall, I kind of like Thomas’s description of Russia. It’s not entirely untrue, but it’s more true if you replace every instance of Russia or Putin with “the US”.

Posted by: Lex | Apr 9 2022 17:54 utc | 166

the guys at RWA on twitter, russians with attitude come up with some interesting info, and a question
https://twitter.com/RWApodcast/status/1512805976122048515
1) the serial number of the Tochka-U that hit Kramatorsk yesterday: Ш91579
2) serial number of a UKR Tochka-U that was used in 2015: Ш91566 (https://youtube.com/watch?v=qXjOjno3HE4)
3) serial number of another UKR Tochka from 2015: Ш91565
9:53 AM · Apr 9, 2022·Twitter Web App
777 Retweets 164 Quote Tweets 1,980 Likes
And their question from a few hours ago:
has anyone seen a photo or video that shows the serial number of the ukrainian tochka-u that hit donetsk on march 14th?
10:08 AM · Apr 9, 2022·

Posted by: michaelj72 | Apr 9 2022 17:55 utc | 167

The Ukranazi psyops staff must be giddy with the ready acceptance their false flag actions receive in the West. Writing ‘for the children’ on a missile used to kill civilians disobeying orders to remain and being able to rely on Westerners hatred of Russians to ascribe this wantonly odious behavior to the Russian Bear is just too easy. The gullibility of Americans and Europeans is unbelievable yet proven everyday with ever more outrageous lies presented as evidence they are perpetrated by any enemy of the West by the corporate propaganda orgs in league with the American security state. Peace advocates and activists opposed to the American war machine should be very frightened by the power of capitalist media to manufacture consent for war making, especially because these aggressors are willing to kill anyone, including children, and at an alarming rate.

Posted by: Wilikins | Apr 9 2022 17:57 utc | 168

@ Greg Galloway 145
Now, now our granddaughter goes by the alphabet a, b, C, d, e, F – a trustee of Schwab’s WEF recently on a tear grabbing people’s/country’s bank accounts.
= = = = = =
Brains stir-fried crazy.
Tokyo Apologises to Azov Neo-Nazis, Removes Them From Designated Terrorists List
https://sputniknews.com/20220409/tokyo-apologises-to-azov-neo-nazis-removes-them-from-designated-terrorists-list-1094619140.html
Yes Master.
Japan did not read the Memo from Greece.
Zelenskyy Greek Nazi Parade Turns Sour
Azov fighter video overshadows Zelenskiy’s address to Greek lawmakers.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/azov-fighter-video-overshadows-zelenskiys-address-greek-lawmakers-2022-04-07/

ATHENS, April 7 (Reuters) – Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelenskiy’s address to the Greek parliament on Thursday caused an outrage from opposition parties after a man who identified himself as an ethnic Greek member of Ukraine’s ultranationalist Azov battalion appeared on a video.
Zelenskiy spoke about the destruction of the Russian-besieged Ukrainian port of Mariupol – home to thousands of ethnic Greeks – and appealed to Athens for help. read more 
During his speech he showed a video with a message by a man who identified himself as a member of the Azov battalion, a far-right militia now part of Ukraine’s National Guard.[.]
+ + + + + +
The Reaction: Euractiv
https://www.euractiv.com/section/europe-s-east/news/zelenskyy-speech-at-greek-parliament-overshadowed-by-azov-video/
The video of Azov Battalion’s soldier triggered the reaction of opposition parties as well as influential members of the ruling New Democracy party.
“The speech of members of the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion in the Greek Parliament is a provocation. The absolute responsibility lies with the Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis. He talked about a historic day, but it is a historic shame. The solidarity with the Ukrainian people is a given. But the Nazis cannot have a say in Parliament,” Syriza leader Alexis Tsipras posted on Facebook.
Similarly, former Prime Minister Antonis Samaras said allowing this video to be broadcast in the Greek House was a “big mistake”
“The Greek government irresponsibly undermined the struggle of the Ukrainian people, by giving the floor to a Nazi. The responsibilities are heavy. The government should publish a detailed report of preparation and contacts for the event,” commented former foreign affairs minister Nikos Kotzias.
The socialists issued a statement asking why Greek lawmakers had not been informed about the video intervention of an Azov Battalion member and called on the president of the Greek Parliament to bear responsibility.
Mitsotakis issued a statement saying “Europe is called upon to immediately put out the fire of war that ignited in its heart the Russian regime. The heinous crimes that were committed should be punished”
Meanwhile, government spokesperson Giannis Oikonomou said the inclusion of the Azov Battalion message was “incorrect and inappropriate”. However, he did not say who should be held responsible for this.[.]

Let’s leave it there.

Posted by: Likklemore | Apr 9 2022 17:57 utc | 169

well, for all the guys saying Russian got no Tochka U 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/XuJo9QX7Vg8

Posted by: dididi | Apr 9 2022 18:03 utc | 170

Republicofscotland | Apr 9 2022 16:46 utc
The question is what can they take with them? The likelihood is that the idea is to deport them after stripping them of their assets, most of which were stolen from Russia anyway.
What it shows is that the imperialists are putting more pressure on the oligarchs to use all their power and resources to overthrow the Russian government- another example of democratic values at work.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 9 2022 18:05 utc | 171

I’ve been thinking about Ursula vonderleyen & co trip to Kiev. I don’t believe they went at all but was puzzled by the footage of them in Kiev in presidential buildings and today Boris in an office in Kiev. Until I remembered this:
There is a full studio set for the filming of the President of the People series with Zelensky the Actior. All that was needed was transporting it to Poland or Lviv.

Posted by: Maria | Apr 9 2022 18:06 utc | 172

Posted by: dididi | Apr 9 2022 18:03 utc | 169
If you want to indict Moscow simply for having tochkas, you can just as well indict Kiev for the same reasons.
If you want to retort “why would Kiev attack its own citizens”, I’ll remind you that Ukraine has been in a state of civil war since 2014, in a civil war you target your own citizens by definition; on the other hand Russia officially considers half of the ukrainian people to be russian, and the other half to be a brotherly people – all of which has historical bases.

Posted by: Arganthonios | Apr 9 2022 18:08 utc | 173

Came across this.
Japan’s security service no longer considers Azov* militants terrorists.
The name of the national battalion was removed from the reference book on international terrorism and even apologized.
[…] “We regret that the Azov Battalion was designated as a neo-Nazi organization in the International Terrorism 2021 directory.

Posted by: Kim | Apr 9 2022 18:11 utc | 174

moon of turkish star

Posted by: suck me sideways | Apr 9 2022 18:11 utc | 175

jayc | Apr 9 2022 17:43 utc
What do the warmongers hope to achieve by all this?
The effect of their, thoroughly discredited, propaganda anywhere that it matters- outside the narrow confines of NATOstan and the anglosphere- is minimal. And inside the madhouse it just makes people angrier. Soon this anger will turn against their governments- “Why aren’t we doing more to rescue the innocent Ukrainians from the Russian monster? “- where it will combine with inflation, unemployment and homes short of fuel to produce regime changes across the EU.
The west’s strategists have lost the plot. They have begun to act irrationally.
I’m certain that nobody in Russia cares about these atrocity stories, because they’ve heard them all before. And they never proved to be true.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 9 2022 18:12 utc | 176

Sorry for this being off-topic, but as we all know, it is Ukraine-related, and also thrilling:
In Pakistan, Imran Khan’s party keeps delaying the no-confidence vote. Plenty of rumours going around like martial law to be imposed. Apparently Khan spoke shortly with the Army Chief and Intelligence chief. The Supreme Court is going to convene at 12 a.m. Pakistan time.
I have all this from twitter. If someone has better sources, go ahead.

Posted by: mk | Apr 9 2022 18:16 utc | 177

If you want to indict Moscow simply for having tochkas — right.
Mr. Arganthonios, there is no need to remind me of anything as I live here.
And I know more about this “civil war” than you.

Posted by: dididi | Apr 9 2022 18:17 utc | 178

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 9 2022 17:21 utc | 155
Check the CN talk, Ted Postol mentions something about Russian nuclear response capabilities at some point:
https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/06/watch-mearsheimer-and-mcgovern-on-ukraine/

Posted by: Boo | Apr 9 2022 18:17 utc | 179

“has anyone seen a photo or video that shows the serial number of the ukrainian tochka-u that hit donetsk on march 14th?
10:08 AM · Apr 9, 2022·
Posted by: michaelj72 | Apr 9 2022 17:55 utc | 166”
You can find it on Patrick Lancaster’s video from 3 weeks ago.
At 11:38 in the video. Best I can make out is 16-39190.

Posted by: Woogs | Apr 9 2022 18:19 utc | 180

@Nowegian 55, Thomas 56
Just to be clear, as you state Norwegian, in the absence of drag, both warhead and motor would land in the same place (except presumably there is some explosive charge to separate the parts?). And as you state Thomas, in the presence of drag, both parts will lose energy and fall short of a perfect parabola. And as Norwegian said, the drag on the motor is greater relative to its weight than the drag on the warhead because of it’s shape and size, so the motor will fall shorter than the warhead.

Posted by: Tim Glover | Apr 9 2022 18:19 utc | 181

Sushi @76–
Very well said!! My wife works fulltime and has no time to do what I do. And when she finishes her day, the last thing she wants to do is to continue to look at a computer screen since that’s what she does for her job. Neither of us watch BigLie Media, so talking about what’s happening is quite easy, although I can get angry when propaganda infiltrates the sports I watch, which it has more and more since Clinton. Some are ignorant because they choose to be so; some are because of life circumstances as we both just portrayed; but those who don’t use their brains are the worst and are the sorts thomas targets.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 9 2022 18:22 utc | 182

Substanceless statements.
You haven’t answered anything, you just produced arbitrary claims meaningless in a pseudonynous medium.
Even your “here” is ambiguous given that it could refer to any place I mentioned.

Posted by: Arganthonios | Apr 9 2022 18:25 utc | 183

Like other commentators I am puzzled by the incongruity of a scene that looks totally faked, and a missile motor that is placed exactly where one would expect if it was not faked, but a genuine attack on civilians by the Ukraine Defence forces. And the Russians have taken the missile theory seriously… So perhaps I just don’t know what an attack on a station would actually look like.
I agree with whoever said that one likely motive for the Ukraine army is simply terrorism to maintain control over the population.

Posted by: Tim | Apr 9 2022 18:27 utc | 184

Here you have the news report where you can clearly see the serial number of the rocket

Posted by: Stefano | Apr 9 2022 18:27 utc | 185

Ship tries to rescue those in Mariupol but gets disabled in the process.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 9 2022 18:38 utc | 186

Posted by: Boo | Apr 9 2022 18:17 utc | 178
What I meant to say was that I’m hoping we can get an analysis of the Krematorsk Tochka-u strike from Postol soon.
(Of course, perhaps this requires actual investigators on the ground as in Syria, and fat chance of that happening?

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 9 2022 18:39 utc | 187

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 9 2022 18:38 utc | 185
The ship’s response to warnings sounded like pure madness.
What would posess a civilian vessel to act in that way? Are they being threatened or bribed so intensely they’d risk running a Russian blockade?

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 9 2022 18:43 utc | 188

Regarding the booster falling short of the target, the nearly spent booster and intact 500 kg warhead, falling as a single unit must be carefully separated so as to not disturb the trajectory of the warhead. Something – a small charge, mechanical springs – pushes the warhead forward and the booster backward relative to their common center of gravity. It’s not only logical that the booster would fall short but it seems critical to the design of the rocket system. The last thing you would want is for the booster to knock into the warhead from behind.

Posted by: NoThanx | Apr 9 2022 18:45 utc | 189

The publicly available evidence shows that the Ukrainian military must have fired the missile that killed some 50 Ukrainian civilians in Kramatorsk.

Kramatorsk is not in Ukraine. It is in DPR.
It is still occupied by Ukraine, bot not for long.
Initial uprising 8 years ago against Kiev Junta was there and in Slaviansk.
So those civilians were not Ukrainian but Russian.
Posted by: dididi | Apr 9 2022 18:17 utc | 177

Mr. Arganthonios, there is no need to remind me of anything as I live here.

Amazing! Say hello to Kirby!

Posted by: hopehely | Apr 9 2022 18:48 utc | 190

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 9 2022 18:43 utc | 187
Response was probably code word trasmitted to azov scum via open frequency, not to Russian navy. They were either $$$ stimulated or manned by azov sympathizers to try to rescue nazis from azovstal.

Posted by: Abe | Apr 9 2022 18:51 utc | 191

A coupe-d’etat is underway in Pakistan, with the PM Imran Khan practically against everyone — a highly corrupt opposition, the judiciary and all the powerful institutions. The powerful forces in the country have called the Supreme Court to initiate session for legal proceedings last Sunday, and today, Saturday at nearly midnight. This is one man against the system and a story the wider world needs to know. All opinion polls I have seen on social media point out to a 90%-92% favorable opinion for the PM. The mandate of the Pakistani people is being stolen by a powerful few.

Posted by: Tranquilitus | Apr 9 2022 18:51 utc | 192

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2022 11:30 utc | 7
I’ve got friends with family who own 200 sq. miles of land in central Arizona. To get there it’s a 1.5 hr drive off the paved highway on unpaved primitive roads. There are numerous natural springs (potable right at the source) and ample grazing for cattle and other livestock. Elevation is about 2,500 ft ASL. Numerous members of the community have bunkers blasted out of sheer cliff face and survival gear aplenty. I’ll be heading back there if shit goes down.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 9 2022 18:54 utc | 193

But I don’t go to western NATOist or ukrainist webpages and spam them with my pro-russian pro-soviet stance, as much as I despise them they have a right to their own spaces, but that’s the same reason I don’t have to tolerate them here.
Arganthonios | Apr 9 2022 15:47 utc | 111
Maybe you should? – It’s a rather safe way to fight a war.

Posted by: Anne B | Apr 9 2022 19:02 utc | 194

@Posted by: dididi | Apr 9 2022 18:03 utc | 169
How about posting the *full* video, or at least something
not so selective. It appears to be a civilian parade.
Here in the US our parades often make use of decommissioned weaponry.
I can show you WWII tanks on parade, even Civil War canons.

Boston Cheers Patriots with Super Bowl Parade
The Super Bowl-winning New England Patriots are getting their moment in the snow. World War II-era amphibious vehicles known as duck boats are carrying MVP quarterback Tom Brady and most of the rest of the team through downtown Boston.

https://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2017/02/07/boston-cheers-patriots-super-bowl-parade/97594894/

Posted by: librul | Apr 9 2022 19:08 utc | 195

dididi | Apr 9 2022 18:17 utc | 177
You claim to live here – but I am positive you don’t. Do you mean the Ukraine? Or is it more esoteric?

Posted by: Anne B | Apr 9 2022 19:08 utc | 196

And I know more about this “civil war” than you.
Posted by: dididi | Apr 9 2022 18:17 utc | 177
Then why are you using scare quotes when mentioning the 8-year civil war where you allegedly live?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 9 2022 19:10 utc | 197

Posted by: Tom_12 | Apr 9 2022 16:30 utc | 148
> If I understood correctly the above, they deliver the “package” coming down at 90 degrees to the ground
You have to tell direction of rocket from direction of flight. You assume here that “targeT” denotes flat and hortizontal earth surface. I don’t think so. In this case the simple language would be used about veritical dive. It would be much easier to understand, thus hardred to understand wrong and do drills wrong.
You have to account for at least two moments:
1) the warhead velocity after separation keeps loosing horizontal speed (air drag) and increasing vertical speed (gravity).
2) most if not all warheads are detonated way before “crashing” into the target, i heard the 200 metres estimation of detonation distance.
Your #2 link has the following said right above your quote and the video wit hthe motor section: “But at a certain distance, this is revealed”.
Which means there was a significant distance, on the ground, between explosion crater and motor section fall. It is not fitting good with “vertical dive” idea.
it also says “The 9E118 warhead non-contact fuse contains a radio sensor that is at an altitude of 450 m (+ -50 m) gives the command to turn the rocket into a dive at an angle of 80 degrees. (+ -5 deg.).” Such a sharp dive was only reported for this single warhead, implying it is some extreme case ot be warned about and other warheads common behaviour is different.
Your link claims that detonation (“подрыв” which was weirdly translated as undermining, and even that was supposed to mean literally digging(mine as in ore extraction) under the object) is made at the impact, or at 15 metres before impact (HE warheads), or as 2250 metres altitude (canister warheads).
Frankly, i can not believe it, it was some typo or getting lost in one’s thoughts. Throwing around some steel pebble at 2KM+ altitude? makes no sense to me. Maybe just “2” key kitter and it was meant 250 not 2250.
Okay, here is a very pro-Ukrainian source, claiming Russia was using Tochka-U from early March: https://t.me/CITeam/2383
It stresses that specifically for canister/cluster warheads “rocket part falls several hundred meters away from warhead detonation point”.
This “several hundred meters” does not seem to be just a random deviation in the veritical dive.
In this case the rocket stage would be effected by the same winds as those many sub-munitions, and would fall somewhere inside the circle, made by dozens of submunitions falling (if we’d imaging they would all fail to detonate).
But since those submunitions actually do detonate on approach and detonating they throw hundreds of small “pebbles” in all directions – then motor part would actually land significantly closer to the center, then outer “impacts” circumference.
I would say, if rocket stage falls 200 meter from detonation point – then the are of destruction should had been 300 meters around that point. Too good to be true.
…or maybe not. This picture – if you like topwar site – claims that cluster-armed Tocka-U has D=300m effect area, which is close to my pretty random R=300m above. https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2017-05/1495470892_view_belo1.jpg
It also suggests the distance from motor section debird to explosiont center as about 450m
The picture is taken from https://topwar.ru/116246-tochki-nad-u.html – and perhaps you better read it, it gives more consistent info, than disjoint comments.
And also this: https://topwar.ru/98434-kompleks-tochka-u-staryy-kon-vse-esche-sposobnyy-isportit-lyubuyu-borozdu.html
According to those articles:
There actually is no “warhead separation” stage, at all. This maches the claim of “rocket is controlled during the whole of flight path” claim.
HE-armed rocket does “доворот” – final pitch angle adjustment – at the 20 meters altitude (not distance-to-target). Then the rocket – both detonated warhead and motor – slam into impact point.
For canister/cluster-aimed Tochka the warhead explodes at 2250 meters altitude. Guess the comment above was just copy-pasted from here. That detonation throws 50 (fifty) sub-munitions around – their shape optimized for long passive flight and having fabric bands stabilizers – keep flying onward.
https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2017-05/1495470697_9n123k1.jpg
It also probably detach the very tip of the rocket (sensors section) and disintegrates the warhead stage (which we erroneously considered “separation” – it just ceases to exists)
The motor section flies too, just like sub-munitions do – but it lacks air-spoiling head shape yet instead has meshes that produce air drag. It also sustains a heavy kick-back fro mthe explosion of the warhead before it.
It was said that motor section is “heavier”. For a purely ballistic flight mass does not matter at all, as Gallileo’s expriment at Piza tower shown. Grabity is exactly effecting the mass, that is why it is often called “weight”. And the more mass you have, the more weight (weight = gravity force dragging you down) you feel. PErfectly compensating inertia.
What actually matters for atmospheric flight is a kind of “density”, or more specific – amount of movement inertia (mass dependent) to air drag (shape and size dependent). The air drag generatd by size and shape keeps reducing inertia until zero horizontal speed.
Now, the mini-warheads have much more dencity than motor engine! They are just explosives packed and almost nothing more! The motor stage has huge – and now empty – fuel tank inside. It also has inner nozzle (always empty). It also has some area between nozzle walls and outer cylinder walls, which maybe is partially filled with controlling devices, but otherwise empty too.
So the motor section after “active/accelerating/booster flight phase” over is more like “emptiness with walls around”, having large air drag and little inner mass/inertia. More so, at the 2250 m altitude it gets heavily kicked back by the warhead explosion. It is mightily handicapped against the submunitions, that just keep flying onward. Motor seems ot be bound to fall behind

Posted by: Arioch | Apr 9 2022 19:12 utc | 198

Reasons:
1 Buchka lost its credibility too soon and did not result in the reaction the Ukraine was hoping for
2 That loss of credibility forced to organize a deflection from the potential Buchka backfire and a more gruesome spectacle was required to get that reaction the Ukraine was rooting for
With Russia winning and the casualties mostly citizens from that Kramatorsk neighborhood thus being mostly Russian speaking locals, given Ukronazi disdain for the Russian (slavic?) citizens, the absolute desperation of the Kiev puppet regime knowing it is losing the war and can’t save its 69-80k army encircled in the Donbas except by surrendering my money is on simply another krainian false flag. Occam’s Razor.

Posted by: JR | Apr 9 2022 19:13 utc | 199

What horror. All support to Ukraine/Kiev should cease. Citissime!

Posted by: cunctator | Apr 9 2022 19:14 utc | 200