More Evidence That Ukraine Fired The Missile Which Killed Dozens In Kramatorsk
This is a follow on to yesterday's Ukrainian Tochka-U missile strike on the Kramatorsk railway station. Russia no longer has Tochka missiles (search for Tochka in the pdf) while the Ukraine, Belarus and several other states still use them.
There is now additional evidence that the missile was fired by Ukrainian forces. The facts do not matter in 'western' media who stick to whatever story they are told to produce. Still, I do believe that facts matter at least in the long term and that there is a historic value in documenting them.
The Tochka-U is a tactical missile with a maximum range of some 120 kilometer. It is typically fired from a transporter, erector, launcher vehicle (TEL) with little need of preparations.
The TEL vehicle for the Tochka is a six wheeled BAZ 5921 /5922. These are amphibious floating hull chassis. The picture below shows a BAZ TEL in parade mode with a Tochka missile slightly erected. In the normal transport mode the missile lies horizontally under a protective roof.
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The Tochka missile, below in a firing position, consists of a rocket engine, four fins and grids to direct its course, a solid fuel compartment and a warhead at its front. A complete missile weighs about 2,000 kilogram.
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There are various warhead types available which weigh about 500 kilogram each.
The warhead which was used in Kramatorsk is a fragmentation one with 20 sub-munitions (gray) each with some 7.5 kilogram of explosives enclosed in a metal hull.
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Over the target area these sub-munitions get expelled and explode while still in the air and each one creates some 800 fragments. The warhead thus leaves no hole in the ground but expels a huge number of deadly metal fragments at high speed over a relative large area. The Tochka missiles are not very precise. They have a circular error probability (CEP) of some 150 meters. They are so called area weapons to be used against concentrations of infantry or unarmored vehicles.
After being fired the rocket engine propels the warhead towards is destination. Shortly before the impact the warhead separates from the booster section and continues its path while the rocket engine shuts down. Having lost its thrust and aerodynamic tip the relative heavy booster section will then tumble to the ground. If everything works as designed the booster section always falls short of the warhead section.
Which brings us to the scene in Kramatorsk. Several pictures from the scene show the booster section of the missile.
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The place where it landed was geo-located as being near a parking space some 60 meter west-southwest of the railway station. Here is the Google maps view of the railway station area. The warhead explosions happened on the east side of the station over the departure platform.
The location of the booster debris and where the explosion happened allows one to point out the trajectory from where the missile was fired. I have checked the locations depicted below and found them to be correct.
North is to the top. The station is encircled and the point is where the booster section landed. The arrow shows the trajectory the missile must have taken.
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Oh, the map is annotated in Russian and you don't trust Russian sources? Well, here is the New York Times posting a similar map.
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Here is map from Liveuamap depicting the current front lines in Ukraine. Kramatorsk is marked in yellow.
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Note that there are no Russian or Russia-aligned forces west-southwest of Kramatorsk within the 120 km maximum range of a Tochka missile. The missile must have been fired by Ukrainian forces.
Unsurprisingly the Russian military has come to the same conclusion:
An analysis of the engagement radius of the warhead, as well as the characteristic position of Tochka-U missile's tail section, clearly confirm that it was launched from a south-western direction away from Kramatorsk.According to intelligence reports, one of the divisions of the 19th Missile Brigade armed with Tochka-U missile systems at the time of the strike on Kramatorsk was located near Dobropol'e in Donetsk Region, 45 km south-west of Kramatorsk.
This area is still under the full control of the Ukrainian military grouping troops in Donbass.
The publicly available evidence shows that the Ukrainian military must have fired the missile that killed some 50 Ukrainian civilians in Kramatorsk.
The only purpose of the attack I can think of was to create propaganda that, when distributed as 'Russian attack' through 'western' media, will create more military support for Ukraine.
Everyone who urges to give more arms to the Ukraine or who eggs it on to continue this war is guilty of creating impetus for more incidents like the one seen in Kramatorsk.
Posted by b on April 9, 2022 at 10:23 UTC | Permalink
next page »The only thing the Russians in my opinion can do is stick to their plan and follow it through without: hesitation.
The propaganda war cannot be won.
As a German citizen my daily experience is that big majority of „educated middle class“-people are thoroughly brainwashed - and a perfect example of how to manipulate the masses towards war.
Posted by: Vollhonk | Apr 9 2022 10:55 utc | 2
CC:
During an offensive operation by LNR units, a portable radioisotope identifier Verifinder SN20 manufactured by the American company Symetrica was found at positions recaptured from Ukrainian armed formations.
According to official data, this equipment was not supplied to the territory of Ukraine as part of military assistance and is not on free sale, as it is intended directly for delivery to the United States security services.
Posted by: hmmm | Apr 9 2022 10:59 utc | 3
Great article! It lays out evidence in a way that is hard to dispute.
Posted by: RiNS | Apr 9 2022 10:59 utc | 4
Excellent analysis as usual. The only loose end in my non-military mind is what's the possibility that the booster continued its trajectory after the warhead separated? This would mean the missile originated from an eastern direction rather than the west. In b's analysis he states "Having lost its drive and aerodynamic tip the booster section will then tumble to the ground. If everything works as designed the booster section always falls short of the warhead section." Just wondering if there is any document/reference for this?
Posted by: krypton | Apr 9 2022 11:09 utc | 5
How the grubby have fallen, ABC TV Four Corners , Ghosts of Timor , part 2;
https://www.abc.net.au/4corners/ghosts-of-timor-part-2/13830136
Posted by: Paul | Apr 9 2022 11:13 utc | 6
"Everyone who urges to give more arms to the Ukraine or who eggs it on to continue this war is guilty of creating impetus for more incidents like the one seen in Kramatorsk."
As I mentioned in the last thread, Alexander Mercouris has come to the conclusion that this is precisely what the neocons in the West want, both in the US, the UK and in Brussels. The US and the UK have both expended efforts to convince the Ukrainians to downgrade any diplomatic efforts and to continue the war. That makes the goal of the West fairly obvious.
As Mercouris states, "The neocons have no reverse gear", and they will only double down and triple down continuously as long as their operation is not going to plan, i.e., Russia continues to win in Ukraine, and the Russia economy and currency do not collapse and the Russian population support for Putin continues to remain high. So the longer this conflict continues, the higher the probability that the neocons - using media pressure on the the US, UK and EU governments - will convince those governments to commit to ever higher levels of intervention, up to and including no fly zones and eventually a hot war with Russia against NATO directly.
As I've suggested before, it is even possible that the neocons intend a direct war between NATO and Russia, regardless of its potential to escalate out of control to WWIII. As Mercouris says, these people don't live in reality and can not accept that their plans are failing. And since they have the bulk of the western electorates behind them due to the MSM brainwashing, it's quite possible that they will get what they want.
Just the other day, Biden again made a gaffe, in talking to some construction people, to the effect that "if I have to go to war, I want to go with you guys". He said, "I really mean it", while the headline said he was "joking". Maybe he's joking now, but will he be joking in a month or three when another 20 or 30 false flag massacres have occurred in Ukraine and the ignorant electorates are baying for Russian blood?
Some people say that the Russians need to speed this up even if it means taking heavier Ukrainian civilian casualties. Reducing the Donbass Ukrainian army could take days, weeks or even a couple months at the present pace. And after that, how long to do "phase 3", whatever that might turn out to be?
Me, I have nothing to say. It is what it is. It's up to Putin and his team to make the decisions. But I agree with Mercouris that the next 5-6 months, and possibly as little as the next 2 or 3, are going to decide the outcome of this affair. Either the Russians wrap this up before the neocons can expand the war or they won't.
As I mentioned before, if this turns into a shooting war between Russia and the West, you need a one-way ticket to South America or maybe New Zealand. At worst, the only relatively safe space in the US is northeastern Utah.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2022 11:30 utc | 7
Apart from not having the means to carry out that attack, Russia didn't even have a motive to do so, unless we believe that Putin is just evil and likes to kill woman and children.
If the Russians did it, they would have been attacking mostly their own people, since Kramatorsk is in the middle of east Ukraine. Not a very good way of creating good will amongst a population that you want to be governed by your allies.
Also you would expect that Russia would want to encourage civilians to leave an area that it is encircling and intending to conquer - that would leave fewer people that it would have to distinguish from enemy soldiers.
In the last 24 hours I've seen no attempt to give a rational explanation for why the Russians attacked the railway station. And as far as I know, neither has anyone provided any evidence that Russia did so, for example about where the Russians launched the missile from.
Posted by: Brendan | Apr 9 2022 11:35 utc | 8
The truth must be established. Thank you for this fact based report.
Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 9 2022 11:43 utc | 9
""Everyone who urges to give more arms to the Ukraine or who eggs it on to continue this war is guilty of creating impetus for more incidents like the one seen in Kramatorsk."
As I mentioned in the last thread, Alexander Mercouris has come to the conclusion that this is precisely what the neocons in the West want, both in the US, the UK and in Brussels. The US and the UK have both expended efforts to convince the Ukrainians to downgrade any diplomatic efforts and to continue the war. That makes the goal of the West fairly obvious."
The same conclusion comes from Jacques Baud. As a NATO Intelligence officer he has a very clear view of why this war is occurring and who is responsible. I'd encourage anyone who hasn't read it to take a look.
Posted by: KP | Apr 9 2022 11:48 utc | 10
Thank you b for that analysis.
The Ukraine army is a foul brew and I trust the patriots will destroy them all soon.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 9 2022 11:50 utc | 11
Posted by: krypton | Apr 9 2022 11:09 utc | 5
The old black is white argument.
Posted by: Bobaree | Apr 9 2022 11:50 utc | 12
@Vollhonk
As a German citizen my daily experience is that big majority of „educated middle class“-people are thoroughly brainwashed - and a perfect example of how to manipulate the masses towards war.
Not just war but economic suicide. The EU are using all this as an excuse to slash energy usage "to hurt Putin!"
This, incidentally, is one of the goals of The Great Reset - reduce the Western world's living standards to subsistence level.
Prepare for a dark, hungry, cold future, dear Euro-peons.
Here in the UK it looks like the government will use this war as a pretext for more nuclear power, which at least shows some small semblance of rational thinking.
Posted by: Observer | Apr 9 2022 11:52 utc | 13
@Richard Steven Hack
Good points.
But what seems to be missed is that the more Ukrainians can be convinced they have a chance, and that the Russians are "losing", the more likely it is they'll take up arms and resist the Russians, and thus the more Russians will be killed, and consequently, the more Ukrainians will be killed; leading to ever high amounts of Russia-hatred in the surviving Ukrainians and thus a more NATO-inclined populace.
What's more, if Russia is seen by the Western populace to be "losing", any false-flags involving Sarin or Novachok against civilians will seem more credible. "The Russians are losing the war, that's why they resorted to chemical weapons!"
I frequent Quora, and I would estimate the ratio of comments asserting "Russia is losing!" to comments stating "Russia is winning!" to be around 20:1
How much of this reflects genuine popular sentiment as opposed to J-TRIG or Division 77 propaganda at work is impossible to know, of course. But it broadly reflects the Legacy Media narrative, so I can believe it's widely held.
Posted by: Observer | Apr 9 2022 12:03 utc | 14
"The only purpose of the attack I can think of was to create propaganda that, when distributed as 'Russian attack' through 'western' media, will create more military support for Ukraine."
The direct purpose of the attack is to terrorize Ukrainian civilians, since such terrorism is the only real tactic the Ukronazis have left and the only way they hold onto their power. Otherwise the people, while they never were going to "rise up", would migrate away from the combat zones and in general stop obeying the Kiev regime and look to their own survival.
Meanwhile the Western propaganda of "Russian atrocities" is designed to reinforce and sustain the mass formation psychosis fixated on Russophobic war fever. The main goal of this, in keeping with the fact that the main enemy target of the imperial elites is the people of Europe themselves, is to keep the Eurolemmings in a state of self-righteous "altruism" where they're willing to continue submitting to their own economic and political immolation.
Beyond that, it's also to drum up at least acquiescence in whatever level of war measure the empire pushes, up to and including the nuclear escalation that will devastate Europe most of all.
Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Apr 9 2022 12:06 utc | 15
Link is to Gonzalo, he has the original Russian link if you can follow.
Three prisons near Kharkov opened, prisons for ‘grave’ and ‘very grave’ offenders. The released given guns and their mission will be to stand south of the city and shoot regular Ukraine Army soldiers who attempt to retreat.
What could possibly go wrong? Recipe for chaos. Not something a winner would do. More evidence the entire operation is about random violence. The plusgood Newspeakers in the West will consider that all the violence is Russian, because they are savages, because Putin is a madman.
Only thoughtcriminals can find Ukraine on a map. Only thoughtcriminals know anything about meters and kilometers. Analysis? Blame Russia and always be plusgood.
Posted by: Oldhippie | Apr 9 2022 12:06 utc | 16
Aside from the possible motivation of a bloodbath to blame on the Russians, I have seen one other possible motivation for a Ukrainian attack suggested - namely to deter people from fleeing (rather than staying as human shields for the military). Then again, others have suggested that the railways around Kramatorsk have been cut, making flight by rail an unlikely prospect anyway. Does anyone know one way or the other?
Posted by: Justin Glyn | Apr 9 2022 12:09 utc | 17
Who do the Ukrainian innocents think is killing them?
It seems quite stupid to design propaganda that works in retrograde by discounting the impact of ifs actions upon the victims.
What is to be done to suppress the recipients of Nazi violence from developing a narrative of their own? Isn't this exactly how to invent a new holocaust scheme?
Posted by: too scents | Apr 9 2022 12:10 utc | 18
Posted by: Vollhonk | Apr 9 2022 10:55 utc | 2
Sorry to rain on your parade but Germany does not do "education" it does Indoctrination and Gleichschaltung. German "education" avoids Critical Thinking - refuses permission to teach Economics or Political Studies in schools.
Germany is a Gleichschaltung Society where YOU MUST ACCEPT and there is NO DEVIATIONISM - and the path to marginalisation is a very simple deviation from recitation of the Catechism
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Apr 9 2022 12:11 utc | 19
What do bet the reason all the people were on the railway staion is that they are all ethnic Russians and the VSU told them they would be allowed to leave by train to escape the fighting - but actually with the sole intent to concentrate them in the path of the missile? Declared train departure time (I am postulating) approximately expected arrival time of the missile. In fact the VSU know very well that any such train has no possibility of leaving (perhaps also no possibility of arriving??) because the Russians have already destroyed the tracks leading to Kramators to prevent resupply of the VSU. Why were so many civilians assembled in the open at the railway station, unless they had been promised an exit?
More incriminating details will come out eventually, no question.
Posted by: BM | Apr 9 2022 12:14 utc | 20
Thanks to the author and readers. I am pleasantly surprised that there are people in the West who are not too lazy to sort out the facts in order to know the truth and not be deceived. In fact, there is much more narrow evidence, as in the case of other productions and Zelensky's lies. He spends a lot of money and effort to mislead the whole world. All he can do is the professional skills of an actor and a stage director. Now is the peak of his real career, the audience is the whole world, he is intoxicated with fame and support. I'm afraid that he will continue to the last Ukrainian. But it is impossible to deceive the whole world for a long time. "I think the power is in the truth, Whoever is right is strong." (с)
Posted by: Sasha | Apr 9 2022 12:16 utc | 21
Hey Prez Zelensky. Your false flag attacks killing your own people aren't working. Sure, you are generating a lot of sympathy in the NATO countries and obtaining many weapons, but you are failing in your main objective, which is to bring the USA into the war on your side. To do that you need to kill some Americans. That will force Pres Biden's handlers to retaliate directly against Russia, to save face if nothing else. Your best bet is to shoot down one of those American spy planes hovering up there just outside Ukrainian air space. Whereas anyone can see the Russians have nothing to gain by killing Ukrainian children the Russians do have a motive to shoot down American spy planes. You won't even have to blame Russia for the attack. American corporate media will be happy to do that for you.
Posted by: Chas | Apr 9 2022 12:18 utc | 22
Here in the UK it looks like the government will use this war as a pretext for more nuclear power, which at least shows some small semblance of rational thinking.
UK is run by Barnum & Bailey with Johnson acting as ring master proclaiming Grand Projects like Bridge from Scotland to Ireland or boating about nuclear power when UK NO LONGER possesses the technology since Tony Blair sold it to Toshiba who licensed it to China which is why UK now has CGN with 33% stake in Hinkley point with EdF of France to try and build a nuclear station guaranteed excessive prices kWh in perpetuity.
UK is run by Fantasists. The whole country is a BBC TV Serial with unbelievable actors and script which has UK as centre of universe achieving magnificent feats admired globally - that is why Zelensky is the perfect fictional character for the Showbiz Parliament.
UK has Assembles in N Ireland, Scotland, Wales but dare not have one in England or the English would secede as Yeltsin seceded with Russian Federation from USSR - England is held prisoner by crackpot politicians like Johnson who is nothing more than a bloated windbag who attracts deranged women anxious to get pregnant
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Apr 9 2022 12:19 utc | 23
I'm applying the same methods as the host here to calculate the flight direction of the missile and I come to the much more probable conclusion (like @5) that the rocket came from ESE direction, 180° opposite, directly from the russian and pro-russian regions in the Donbass. The rocket motor has been detached east of the train station from the rocket but flew right over the station and landed west of it because the mass of these heavy parts still contain huge moving energy from the fast ballistic flight. The position of the motor still points in an WSW direction and is therefore proof that it came from the east, the Donbass
Like the host I'm 2000km away from the situation but will claim this reconstruction to be right.
Russia has all the motives to spread terror and fear amongst the people in the Ukraine because it wants its war finally becoming a success, and civilians are obstructive to fullscale war methods.
The Russian Federation is an oligarchic capitalist state with the Russian Orthodox Church as an important source of power. The current government espouses white nationalism and conservative values.
One side - Russia under Putin - invaded a sovereign nation and is subjecting its people to senseless brutality. By no means was Putin backed into a tight corner such that full scale invasion was the only option. And, as most analysts thought until the 24th of February, even a calculation in his own interests comes out with war as the worst option. Whatever the rationale for Putin’s invasion - imperialistic adventurism, great-power competition with the West, consolidating autocracy in the home by suppressing democracy at the doorstep – there is no justification for it. Thus, there can be no morally tenable “both-sides” approach when it comes to pressing for a resolution to the conflict. Any sincere effort must begin with the recognition of Russia’s ultimate culpability.
And the many dead and wounded people at Kramagorsk station also fall fully and undebately under Russias and Putin's special responsibility,
Posted by: thomas | Apr 9 2022 12:21 utc | 24
One of the other false-stories was the theatre-bombing at Mariupol. The Azov forces have retreated to a steel-factory Azovstal. Before the Russians had control of the centre, deputy mayor Sergei Orlov, was giving interviews to MSM and according to the BBC took one of the first photos of the bombing aftermath.
From a UK point of view, are some of our military advisors (NATO) stuck in there. This is the latest news I can get.
https://johnplatinumgoss.com/2022/04/09/how-many-uk-military-personnel-are-in-mariupol/
sorry, the rocket did not come from ESE direction, but ENE (180° to WSW)
Posted by: thomas | Apr 9 2022 12:24 utc | 26
Well done b. Journalism 101. If an independent press ever rises from the ashes of this clusterf**k they'll use your work as a case study.
So there we have it. What sort of people area-fire their own fleeing civilians with fragmentation munitions for a false-flag propaganda stunt? Oh, silly me, sociopathic Ukro-Nazis.
Posted by: Patroklos | Apr 9 2022 12:25 utc | 27
https://avia-pro.net/news/v-mariupole-okruzheny-desyatki-deystvuyushchih-oficerov-nato
Several dozen active NATO officers were surrounded in Mariupol.
During the ongoing assault on Mariupol, several dozen active officers of NATO and European countries, who are not officially present on the territory of Ukraine, fell into a dense encirclement. As it turned out, among the surrounded officers are soldiers from France, Germany, Great Britain, Poland, the USA and Sweden (not a NATO member - ed.).
Подробнее на: https://avia-pro.net/news/v-mariupole-okruzheny-desyatki-deystvuyushchih-oficerov-nato
Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 9 2022 12:29 utc | 28
"Everyone who urges to give more arms to the Ukraine or who eggs it on to continue this war is guilty of creating impetus for more incidents like the one seen in Kramatorsk".
Amongst then the EU officials who travled to Ukraine and on whose behalf several allegedly corpses were disturbed in their more than deserved eternal rest so that Von der Lugen and Borrell can take the photo-op which could lead to more spending in weapons for the Ukraine and the EU to mayor glory of the US MIC, even if that must be done through squeezing Euroepan taxpayers to bankruptcy, misery and hunger
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FP4qXrdWUAAUebP?format=jpg&name=medium
Posted by: Givi | Apr 9 2022 12:30 utc | 29
Link is to Gonzalo, he has the Russian original if you can follow.
Three prisons near Kharkov have been opened. Prisons for ‘grave’ and ‘especially grave’ offenders. The released given guns and told to stand south of the city. Told to shoot civilians who attempt to flee, shoot soldiers who attempt to retreat.
What could possibly go wrong? All of a piece with the Kramatorsk bombing. This is not military, this is terror.
Here in US no one can find Ukraine on a map. Analysis of vectors and distances of fragments is the domain of thoughtcriminals. If there is trouble, if there is violence, the Russians did it. Because they are savages. Because Putin is a madman.
Posted by: Oldhippie | Apr 9 2022 12:35 utc | 30
Half-hour webinar on Russia gas supply to Europe 06 April, discusses possibilities for Germany and UK: https://www.cer.eu/events/webinar-can-europe-live-without-russian-gas-supplies-can-russia-live-without-european-gas
The chair and the second speaker, who were in Moscow together in the mid-'90s, seem to be on the Integrity Initiative list previously posted on MoA: https://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/11/british-government-behind-secret-anti-russian-disinformation-campaign.html#c6a00d8341c640e53ef022ad37c6316200c
Posted by: mashy | Apr 9 2022 12:36 utc | 31
🇺🇦 Western journalists filmed the serial number of Tochka-U that exploded at the train station in Kramatorsk. According to it, the ownership of the missile belongs to Ukrainian Armed Forces
https://t.me/c/1262772134/9645
Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 9 2022 12:39 utc | 32
I made the mistake just this moment of looking at the Sydney Morning Herald (smh.com.au) to see what it was saying. There's not enough soap in the world to wash out my eyes.
Stay away from the MSM if you don't want an anger management issue.
Posted by: Patroklos | Apr 9 2022 12:42 utc | 33
Good analysis and some informative comments. However, there are some lose ends with the logic. Why were there so many people at the railway station if the line westward had been disrupted? Who organised the evacuation train and where was it? I guess this must have been the Ukraine Authorities? Secondly, if we know the approximate location of the launch, given the range, were there other possible targets. I think we need to consider whether this was an error or premeditated action. Although to hit so many people in one place like this smells of significant premeditated action rather than error. . It would also likely require someone nearby in contact with the launch crew. As has been pointed out Russians were apparently not within range for this one. I can imagine out of control Azov groups targeting fleeing citizens based on eavesdropping on the evacuation organisers. As has been said elsewhere, they are what they are. If Adolf H had been interviewed about the work of the SS he would have said the same.
Posted by: Pipedream | Apr 9 2022 12:46 utc | 34
The Russian Federation is an oligarchic capitalist state with the Russian Orthodox Church as an important source of power. The current government espouses white nationalism and conservative values.
Posted by: thomas | Apr 9 2022 12:24 utc | 25
The choice between oligarchic conservatives who officially support NAZIS and oligarchic conservatives who EXTERMINATE THEM is a no-brainer in favor of Operation Z.
Not to speak of RF being multicultural and Kiev's project militantly monocultural.
You want to cast your lot with the spawn of OUN, UPA, CIA and Gladio, then go back to whatever nazist shithole website you came from.
Special Operation Z is a just war if such a thing exists.
Posted by: Arganthonios | Apr 9 2022 12:49 utc | 35
Posted by: krypton | Apr 9 2022 11:09 utc | 5
That seems to be a valid question. Any reference/video/documentation that the booster section will likely fall to the ground on the way to the warheads destination would make this article an even more relevant reference.
Posted by: Grasdackel | Apr 9 2022 12:50 utc | 36
Posted by: Pipedream | Apr 9 2022 12:46 utc | 34
The main goal is to keep enough "meat shields" staying in the cities which will make the task of the Russians immeasurably harder and postpone the clean up. The Banderastanis have no humanity left.
Posted by: Boo | Apr 9 2022 12:55 utc | 37
@35:
Putin’s fascists: the Russian state’s long history of cultivating homegrown neo-Nazis
Putin regime’s own record of collaboration with far-right extremists. Even as Russian diplomats condemned “fascists” in the Baltic states and Kremlin propagandists railed against imaginary “Ukronazis” in power in Kyiv, the Russian state was cultivating its own homegrown Nazis.
The origins of this relationship date to the late 1990s, when Russia was shaken by a wave of racist violence committed by neo-Nazi skinhead gangs. After Putin’s accession to the presidency in 2000, his regime exploited this development in two ways.
First, it used the neo-Nazi threat to justify the adoption of anti-extremism legislation, a longstanding demand of some Russian liberals. Ultimately, this legislation would be used to prosecute Russian democrats.
Second, the Kremlin launched “managed nationalism”, an attempt to co-opt and mobilise radical nationalist militants, including neo-Nazis, as a counterweight to an emerging anti-Putin coalition of democrats and leftist radicals.
Moving Together, a pro-Putin youth organisation notorious for its campaign against postmodernist literature, made the first move by reaching out to OB88, the most powerful skinhead gang in Russia.
and it is going on and on with fascists in russias parliament, in its state institutions and on the streets aginst democratic and socialist russians
Posted by: thomas | Apr 9 2022 13:00 utc | 38
@Thomas
You are entitled to your opinion and it is welcome to hear it. Consider physics though, the parabolic path is dictated by velocity v and the down component of that vector determined by the gravitational force g*m at right angle towards the ground.
Consequence is that at separation velocity is v and the heavier component (i.e. the rocket engine) is pulled down and lands first while the various payload components surmised to be cluster bombs are lighter and continue further.
Do you want to dispute that with all the other readers here?
Posted by: Prakash | Apr 9 2022 13:00 utc | 39
Posted by: krypton | Apr 9 2022 11:09 utc | 5
That seems to be a valid question. Any reference/video/documentation that the booster section will likely fall to the ground on the way to the warheads destination would make this article an even more relevant reference.
Posted by: Grasdackel | Apr 9 2022 12:50 utc | 36
You both take a physics class. Ever heard of the first stage of a ballistic missile overtaking the second stage and then the warhead?
Posted by: RJB | Apr 9 2022 13:08 utc | 40
Regarding the Russian military statement:
An analysis of the engagement radius of the warhead, as well as the characteristic position of Tochka-U missile's tail section, clearly confirm that it was launched from a south-western direction away from Kramatorsk.
I'm not sure how reliable this is, if it is assuming that the rocket unit falls directly on the path of flight. This is an extensive look at the use of Tochka-Us by Ukraine. In most cases the path of the rocket unit deviates from the flight path to some degree.
No clear logic was found for the direction of deflection of the [engine] block and subs [sub-munitions] during the fall in the variation with the cassette warhead (the deviation of the block to the right of the [impact] area relative to the direction of the rocket flight is implicitly dominant).
The engine unit does not seem to follow a consistent pattern after separation, though this does not mean there are not other factors that can determine flight path, e.g. impact marks around the engine, witness statements, etc. I would be cautious, however, of using the location alone as hard evidence unless there is additional support. It seems like Barofsky's comment @32 may offer that though.
Posted by: Brannagyn | Apr 9 2022 13:09 utc | 41
@Brendan.
"I've seen no attempt to give a rational explanation for why the Russians attacked the railway station."
Quite. Maybe because there isn't one. This reminds me of the Skripal false flag attack in Salisbury, UK. Russia accused of attacking someone who they had had in Prison for years and released.
BTW where are the Skripals ? It appears the UK may have killed them.
Posted by: Robert Wursthaus | Apr 9 2022 13:09 utc | 42
@40:
wrong, the heavy parts don't just "fall" but move forward after detachment because of the massive moving energy still in it from the ballistic flight and only fall later, loosing more and more of this energy, perfectly shown in the picture of the motor on the lawn. Not much energy in it when landing otherwise the destruction would have been much heavier.
Another point: the dead and wounded are mainly on the eastern side of the station building (see NYT picture), means the building couldn't protect them aginst the thousands of fragments from the sub-munition ( which btw is internationally banned) coming from the east.
Posted by: thomas | Apr 9 2022 13:12 utc | 43
Apparently the serial number on the booster indicates that it belonged to the Ukrainian Army according to a post on Telegram.
Posted by: RJB | Apr 9 2022 13:14 utc | 44
From the very beginning, the armed conflict that broke out in the Donbass
in the spring of 2014 drew in right-wing radicals, on the Ukrainian as well
as on the Russian side. Organised ultra-nationalist groups and individual
activists established their own units of volunteers or joined existing ones.
The ideology, political traditions and general track record of these right-
wing extremists meant that it was both natural and inevitable that they
would take an active part in the conflict. Yet the role of right-wing radicals
on both sides has on the whole been exaggerated in the media and in public
discussion. This article demonstrates that Russia’s use of right-wing
radicals on the side of the “separatists” in Donetsk and Lugansk provinces
had greater military and political repercussions than the involvement of
Ukrainian far-right groups in the “anti-terrorist operation”. The general
course of the conflict, meanwhile, caused the importance of far right-
groups on both sides to decline.
Website: Ifri.org
Posted by: thomas | Apr 9 2022 13:20 utc | 45
@Chas
Your best bet is to shoot down one of those American spy planes hovering up there just outside Ukrainian air space. Whereas anyone can see the Russians have nothing to gain by killing Ukrainian children the Russians do have a motive to shoot down American spy planes
Well, Ukraine just took delivery of a BUK system from the Czech Republic, did it not?
Posted by: Observer | Apr 9 2022 13:22 utc | 46
Thomas 24. The rocket engine was a discarded piece of junk and would have been tumbling before impact and therefore could have landed pointing any which way. Separation in flight of the aerodynamic missile is well short of target so how likely is it that the non-aerodynamic said piece of junk would have overflown the target and not plummeted straight to
earth?
Posted by: quasi_verbatim | Apr 9 2022 13:23 utc | 47
Reuters still has the railway attack as it's main headline.
Posted by: librul | Apr 9 2022 13:23 utc | 48
@48:
why don't you asked the host? he is constructing a flight direction from WSW according to the piece of scrap in front of the station
I have already explained the physics of this "piece of junk" flight
Posted by: thomas | Apr 9 2022 13:27 utc | 49
@Thomas
nice to see the bellingcrap guys are trying to rewrite newton laws. It is that damned physics that burst the msm lies.
Posted by: gary | Apr 9 2022 13:28 utc | 50
@Prakash | Apr 9 2022 13:00 utc | 40
Weight does not play a role, but aerodynamics does. Without atmosphere, multiple bodies sharing the same orbit would fall in the same target location, regardless of mass. With atmosphere, denser objects are subject to less atmospheric drag and would fly further. The rocket body will fall short of the warhead due to more atmospheric drag. This article's analysis is correct.
After being fired the rocket engine propels the warhead towards is destination. Shortly before the impact the warhead separates from the missile or booster section and continues its path while the rocket engine shuts down. Having lost its drive and aerodynamic tip the booster section will then tumble to the ground. If everything works as designed the booster section always falls short of the warhead section
Because the booster section is subject to more atmospheric drag (because it is less dense) than the warhead section.
Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 9 2022 13:29 utc | 51
@Thomas
I'm applying the same methods as the host here to calculate the flight direction of the missile and I come to the much more probable conclusion (like @5) that the rocket came from ESE direction, 180° opposite, directly from the russian and pro-russian regions in the Donbass. The rocket motor has been detached east of the train station from the rocket but flew right over the station and landed west of it because the mass of these heavy parts still contain huge moving energy from the fast ballistic flight. The position of the motor still points in an WSW direction and is therefore proof that it came from the east, the Donbass
Except that once the booster has detached from the warhead, it is much less aerodynamic; the warhead is 500kg and bullet-shaped, the spent booster is not only lighter, but you can see from the photos that its front is slab-faced and its steering "pads" stick out and add even more drag.
Once the warhead detached, the booster would have tumbled almost straight downwards as its forward momentum would have been cancelled by drag and gravity.
So, no, I'm afraid your "proof" that it came from ENE is easily debunked nonsense.
What I would like to see is confirmation that the photos are actually oriented in a North "upwards" fashion. I suppose 0 seconds with google maps would suffuice.
Posted by: Observer | Apr 9 2022 13:30 utc | 52
THe latest info is from a Western journo's photo of the serial number of the missile
🇺🇦 Western journalists filmed the serial number of Tochka-U that exploded at the train station in Kramatorsk. According to it, the ownership of the missile belongs to Ukrainian Armed Forces
https://t.me/c/1262772134/9681
Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 9 2022 13:31 utc | 53
It is refreshing to read an alternative position to the plethora of anti Russian sentiment in the western media. I, as an armchair general, stand behind, what makes sense. The trajectory of the rocket?, reminiscent of "back and to the left". The real question is, why? The Russians gain NO advantage from a civilian attack. There is the answer. No doubt there is "collateral damage" to coin a phrase so often employed by the USA, but willfully targeting is just not logical. IT MAKES NO SENSE!! A world of f">
Posted by: Tobias Newman | Apr 9 2022 13:34 utc | 54
@thomas | Apr 9 2022 13:12 utc | 44
wrong, the heavy parts don't just "fall" but move forward after detachment because of the massive moving energy still in it from the ballistic flight and only fall later, loosing more and more of this energy, perfectly shown in the picture of the motor on the lawn. Not much energy in it when landing otherwise the destruction would have been much heavier.
If I was kind, I would say you have no concept of physics. Free fall involves any movement not subject to e.g. rocket forces. The Earth is in free fall around the Sun (or rather, the bodies in the solar system are in free fall around their common barycenter). The missile parts were not in free fall because they were subject to different atmospheric drag.
But I guess your actual point is to disrupt, rather than discuss physics.
The article is correct.
Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 9 2022 13:37 utc | 55
@56:
??? you obviously confirming my thoughts
Free fall involves any movement not subject to e.g. rocket forces. ... The missile parts were not in free fall ...
Posted by: thomas | Apr 9 2022 13:41 utc | 56
Wiesenthal Centre to Nantes Mayor: “Ban Reportedly Neo-Nazi Azov Battalion Meeting Bent on Recruitment of French Youth”
“This danger to the youth of Nantes is equal only to recruitment to ISIS. Nantes must not be a way-station to either Donets or to Damascus.”
In a letter to Nantes Mayor, Johanna Roland, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre Director for International Relations, Dr. Shimon Samuels, drew attention to “a troubling meeting to be convened in Nantes on 16 January by supporters of the Ukrainian Azov Battalion.”
Samuels stressed that “the Wiesenthal Centre takes no position regarding the current Ukrainian-Russian confrontation... Nevertheless, we are disturbed by reports of neo-Nazi influence among the Azov recruits. Indeed Canada and the United States have blocked any training for this Unit, which they apparently thereby designate as 'neo-Nazi'.”
The letter cited British correspondents from the Guardian and the Telegraph newspapers: “A majority of the Unit's members can be labelled as neo-Nazi:
- in iconizing 'Hitler as a great military leader' and in denying the Holocaust
- in claiming that 'Putin is a Jew'
- by the Wolfsangel (Wolfs Hook) logo on their banner and swastika tattoos
- in quotes from the Unit's leader, Colonel Andrey Biletzky, that his historic mission is 'a crusade against the Semite-led 'Untermenschen'[subhumans]... the struggle for the liberation of the entire White race', and threats to 'vigorously punish sexual perversions and inter-racial contacts'.”Samuels also quoted Mark Galeotti, a New York University security expert, who sees this Battalion of volunteers as “a magnet to attract fringe elements from across Ukraine and beyond.”
The letter highlighted that “Azov has already recruited far right radicals from Belarus, Croatia, Serbia, Sweden and ironically – their declared enemy – Russia. A Swedish sniper member has, reportedly, announced his planned move on from Azov to Syria to fight for Assad,” emphasizing that, “most importantly, the Azov Battalion has a French instructor, Gaston Besson, who is working to recruit young volunteers from France over the Internet.”
Samuels lamented that “all of this is so far from the Maidan Spring in Kiev, which launched a struggle for liberal democracy in Ukraine...This is even further removed from the spirit of Nantes, the host of the World Forum for Human Rights, which our Centre often attends.”
The Centre urged the Mayor “that Nantes ban this Azov Battalion supporters' conclave as a danger to the youth of France, equal only to their recruitment to ISIS.”
“Nantes must not be a way-station to either Donets or to Damascus”, concluded Samuels.
Posted by: librul | Apr 9 2022 13:42 utc | 57
into a shooting war between Russia and the West, you need a one-way ticket to South America or maybe New Zealand.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2022 11:30 utc | 7
LOL
"But ease your worries, whe whales survived"
Did you read Nevil Shute's "On the beach", or watched movies? If not it would be a good symphony to the events. Especially first two minutes of the Aussie 2000 remake.
If it comes to the shooting war it would perhaps be aafer for you to instantly turn into ash pile in nothern hemisphere, than to slowly and hopelessly rot to death in NZ
Posted by: Arioch | Apr 9 2022 13:44 utc | 59
"The Russian army captured the US Major General Roger L. Cloutier Jr. Maj. Gen. Roger L. Cloutier, the US Arica Command HQ Chief of Staff in the besieged Ukrainian Azov camp in Mariupol.
LTG Cloutier can off course not use a phone from is current command in Izmir.
Posted by: gary | Apr 9 2022 13:45 utc | 60
@Posted by: librul | Apr 9 2022 13:42 utc | 59
Note that the letter was written in 2016. It spoke of Canada and the US blocking training for the Azov Battalion.
The US Congress and Canada and Britain would later succumb to the devil on their shoulders
and not only end the blocking but *increase* funding, weaponizing and training for the Azov Battalion.
Posted by: librul | Apr 9 2022 13:45 utc | 61
Two questions:
-Could there be DNA traces of the shooters on the missile?
-The fuel of the missile: is it possible to calculate flight time via leftover fuel?
Posted by: BelleDelphine | Apr 9 2022 13:46 utc | 62
The Ukrainians allowed the foreign press to the wreckage of point U in Kramatorsk, filmed it closely, the serial number is visible. The numbers are the same as on other Ukrainian missiles. We have to publish a video, I'm publishing screenshots for now
https://ibb.co/DDqtqmv - serial number from the video
https://ibb.co/sschzrM - other fallen points from Ukraine
The video must be a leak, if Zelensky and the Western media fail to hide everything from the world again and continue to lie, then there must be courts! This is not just a crime against humanity, but against its own citizens with deception for the whole world! The truth always becomes clear!
Posted by: Sasha | Apr 9 2022 13:46 utc | 63
Central banks can't print food.
Social unrest is going to sweep the globe when breadwinners can't afford to feed their families.
Food & Agriculture World Food Price Index ...
https://twitter.com/WallStreetSilv/status/1512656553513394179?cxt=HHwWhoCptd_HhP4pAAAA
The index is already way higher than it was during Arab Spring that was caused by food prices. This tells me that food prices will again likely cause govts to be overthrown. If Russia now stokpiles grain, it can bargain with these countries and secure support. Commodities are king now, not the ability to print endless amount of money.
Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Apr 9 2022 13:46 utc | 64
guys, thanks for discussing the 'physics' details (e.g. Norwegian | Apr 9 2022 13:29 utc | 52).
RJB | Apr 9 2022 13:08 utc | 41 is not helpful but has a point, I am not and never was much good in maths and physics. Also, I have no clue about how these kind of missiles work, whether the warhead will be expelled in an intended direction or simply detached, etc. etc., but I would expect that these effects are documented, tested and known in every detail (which I of course, am not aware of). Any additional evidence that contributes to clarification imho is very welcome, especially if one wants to distribute this article here as a reference.
Posted by: Grasdackel | Apr 9 2022 13:47 utc | 65
@thomas
I'm applying the same methods as the host here to calculate the flight direction of the missile and I come to the much more probable conclusion (like @5) that the rocket came from ESE direction, 180° opposite, directly from the russian and pro-russian regions in the Donbass. The rocket motor has been detached east of the train station from the rocket but flew right over the station and landed west of it because the mass of these heavy parts still contain huge moving energy from the fast ballistic flight.
Physics reject that thesis. One vector of the movement, momentum, is forward, the other one, gravity, is down. The (not aerodynamic) missile part will fall down earlier than the somewhat lighter, still aerodynamic warhead.
The position of the motor still points in an WSW direction and is therefore proof that it came from the east, the Donbass
The motor is at the end of the missile where there are also the metal grid pads. That end is laying towards the light red/pink building with the round corner in picture 7 also visible on the Google map in the south-west of the station. The opposite part, where the war head was attached is pointing towards the station north east of it. The red colored station can been sees behind the trees in the 6th picture above.
upd about the serial number
part of this number was also visible on the old video: https://ibb.co/Yd6y1RB
the numbers converge, and converge with the numbering principle of other Ukrainian missiles https://ibb.co/sschzrM
Posted by: sasha | Apr 9 2022 13:52 utc | 67
The booster section is also pointing towards (not away from) the railway station, supporting the contention that it came from west-south-west. Not east. This can be seen in the images.
- Shyaku
Posted by: Shyaku | Apr 9 2022 13:52 utc | 68
https://t.me/rustroyka1945/746
an excerpt of the video was posted in a telegram, the fact that this is the same rocket can be compared by the handwritten inscription on it "За детей"
Posted by: sasha | Apr 9 2022 13:57 utc | 69
b | Apr 9 2022 13:50 utc | 70
Again, I frankly admit I'm almost completely ignorant about physics, but from a naive point of view, I would guess that the booster section, when it hits the ground, may be subject to any kind of tumbling, bouncing and so on. Is it possible to tell the flight direction by the final position the booster section come to rest in?
Posted by: Grasdackel | Apr 9 2022 13:57 utc | 70
@b 70:
wrong interpretation or view of the picture by you. The part where the warhead was fastened is pointing in a WSW direction as I said. Motor, end of the rocket, pointing east to the station. So object came from East.
Another point: the dead and wounded are mainly on the eastern side of the station building (see NYT picture), means the building couldn't protect them against the thousands of fragments from the sub-munition (which btw is internationally banned) coming from the east.
Posted by: thomas | Apr 9 2022 14:00 utc | 71
The propaganda war cannot be won.As a German citizen my daily experience is that big majority of „educated middle class“-people are thoroughly brainwashed - and a perfect example of how to manipulate the masses towards war.
Posted by: Vollhonk | Apr 9 2022 10:55 utc | 2
"The propaganda war cannot be won."... in NATO+ 5-Eyes countries. But the global battle is very much an open contest. The goal must be to prevent or neutralize significant penetration by the CIA Mockingbird MSM in the rest of the world. After a series of disastrous foreign interventions NATO+ 5-Eyes have isolated themselves. That momentum must be maintained.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Apr 9 2022 14:02 utc | 72
Since before this 'war' began, both sides have been warning of 'false flags' from the other. And we have now seen a litany of them from hospitals, theaters, train stations, residential buildings, nuclear power plants, - all of these blamed on Russians which were quickly debunked by witnesses, journalists and common sense.
Russia goes about its business methodically, relentlessly and purposefully, while the USA and its slave states seem addicted to hysteria and self-immolation.
And it so true, what someone expressed up thread - the neo-cons, which run the foreign policy of both monopoly parties in the US, have no reverse gear, and always double down on failure which has brought us to the precipice of extinction. Prepare Ye!
Posted by: gottlieb | Apr 9 2022 14:05 utc | 73
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2022 11:30 utc | 7
I don't think Russians have to rush before western populace is more brainwashed by false flags to certain critical threshold.
If anything, as time passes buy, western people will get use to it: evil Russians killed more civilians, fuel and electricity costs raised again, some celebrity got new sex change, some woke bullsh*t again... There is saturation point for any narrative, and after that people just tune out.
People can scream they want war or they want peace, western governments don't care, they do it their way anyway. Fact is, western population is not capable or motivate for any kind of war (see how reddit volunteers did it), their military is no shape to do anything decisive. Anything short of full nuclear war will cripple west and only scratch Russia.
Posted by: Abe | Apr 9 2022 14:06 utc | 74
https://ibb.co/DDqtqmv - serial number from the video
https://ibb.co/sschzrM - other fallen points from Ukraine
https://t.me/rustroyka1945/746 - video, the fact that this is the same rocket can be compared by the handwritten inscription on it "За детей"
well, or let's believe the Ukrainian from the comments, who turns the missiles 180 degrees
Posted by: sasha | Apr 9 2022 14:07 utc | 75
A number of comments on MoA say something along these lines: "majority of „educated middle class“-people are thoroughly brainwashed" (Vollhonk | Apr 9 2022 10:55 utc | 2).
My hunch is that many in the bar are "senior citizens" or retired persons with significant amounts of time available to them. I am one of those persons close in age to Mr Hack. Just keeping up with the comments on MoA, reading links, viewing videos and telegram channels is a near full time occupation. It is hard to keep up and stay on top of the news.
When I was working I had a demanding job with long hours. Getting up at 3 am for an emergency flight to an offshore rig was not unusual. Somehow I missed Tiananmen Square 1989, the collapse of the USSR, the Iranian Revolution and simiar significant events. I was busy earning a living, raising a child, divorcing a wife, starting a business.
I suspect a great many of the persons we refer to as being brainwashed are simply equally busy. Their attention is focused elsewhere. They trust the state and its conduct. They trust the media. They believe what scarps of information make it through the factoid bombardment that is a common aspect of daily life. They inhabot a "system" and they hold the belief that the "system" works. It is the "system" that delivers their electricity or NG and permits them to heat their homes, cook their meals, transport kids and groceries.
When the "system" becomes incapable of delivering the normal flow of events we call "life" then people will begin to ask why. And when they begin to ask questions and discover they have been lied to on a conistent basis by elites who are insulated from the impacts of their decisions, at that time I suspect we will see a massive increase in distrust and a loss of credibility that will not be easily restored.
And it is this loss of trust in the "system" what will result in social upheaval, the overthrow of governments, riots in capitols, and politicians wearing neckties and hanging from lampposts.
It will not be pretty.
And we will all get to experience the truth of Putin's assertion that security is interdependent.
Posted by: Sushi | Apr 9 2022 14:07 utc | 76
I frequent Quora, and I would estimate the ratio of comments asserting "Russia is losing!" to comments stating "Russia is winning!" to be around 20:1Posted by: Observer | Apr 9 2022 12:03 utc | 14
I have had posts and accounts blocked from Quora that contained facts contrary to the popular western narrative. They are indeed very controlled, worse than Wikipedia.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Apr 9 2022 14:12 utc | 77
"At worst, the only relatively safe space in the US is northeastern Utah.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2022 11:30 utc | 7"
Really? That's the site of the NSAs massive data center. I would expect that to be a valuable target.
Posted by: jr | Apr 9 2022 14:14 utc | 78
More evidence that the Ukrainians are executing Russian prisoners of war. This from an interview with a Danish mercenary:
A Danish mercenary "Jonas" (pictured), fighting on the Ukrainian side, said that Ukrainian soldiers were executing captured Russian servicemen. The Danish man called it a war crime and assured that he himself had not taken part in the executions. "I had heard earlier about the successful exchange of prisoners of war, but this is the bottom line. People are being killed," the mercenary told TV 2 https://nyheder.tv2.dk/udland/2022-04-07-russiske-krigsfanger-bliver-henrettet-i-ukraine-fortaeller-dansker ). He also said that he had managed to meet several Russian POWs before their execution.
Original:
Наемник из Дании «Джонас» (на фото), воюющий на стороне Украины, рассказал, что украинские солдаты казнят взятых в плен российских военнослужащих. Датчанин назвал это военным преступлением и заверил, что сам не принимал участия в казнях. "Ранее я слышал об успешном обмене военнопленными, но вот что в итоге. Людей убивают", — заявил (https://nyheder.tv2.dk/udland/2022-04-07-russiske-krigsfanger-bliver-henrettet-i-ukraine-fortaeller-dansker) наемник телеканалу TV 2. Он также рассказал, что успел познакомиться с несколькими пленными россиянами до их казни.
Posted by: Barofsky | Apr 9 2022 14:20 utc | 79
@ thomas 44
thousands of fragments from the sub-munition ( which btw is internationally banned)
The US, China, Russia and Ukraine are not signatories to the cluster bomb agreement. The last large-scale American use of cluster bombs was during the 2003 Iraq invasion, according to the Pentagon.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 9 2022 14:20 utc | 80
Still waiting to see evidence any of those 16,000 pieces of shrapnel made a hole in anything. Just checked the google image gallery and nothing. All the windows on track side of station still apparently intact.
Posted by: Oldhippie | Apr 9 2022 14:22 utc | 81
nice to see the bellingcrap guys are trying to rewrite newton laws. It is that damned physics that burst the msm lies.
Posted by: gary | Apr 9 2022 13:28 utc | 51
Exactly. Conclusion: another liar supporting the ukronazis. Necessary to flush it down the toilet where it belongs.
Posted by: Olivier | Apr 9 2022 14:23 utc | 82
Interesting thread on which the strategy of the US would be, that of a lose-lose framing...What explains the sacrifice and torching currently ongoing in the EU....
https://twitter.com/qin_duke/status/1512536778955276297?cxt=HHwWkoC-tfmLzv0pAAAA
"I wrote this a few years ago but people still aren't aware of how a chaos maximization strategy serves US interests. People like to compare US hegemony to late imperial Rome but aren't cognizant of the fact that once Rome no longer had the strength to enforce the Roman peace or Roman law, that didn't mean it no longer had the strength to create Roman disorder. The strategic policy of the Eastern Roman empire along frontiers it could no longer govern was to make them ungovernable so no one could.
Once the US can longer be the city on a golden hill, it will not fade quietly but instead seek to be king of the dung heep. What this means in practice is taking advantage of it's relatively secure and isolated geostrategic position and creating bush fires across the rest of the world for others so that it itself is viewed as an oasis of stability and security in comparison so that financial flows can be redirected to itself from the rest of the world.
Once you move from a win-win game to a lose-lose game, the strategy becomes to make sure that others lose more in relative terms than yourself. It is why the US is undermining the international system it publicly espouses to uphold and why it's immediate satrapies are being put to the torch first.
There are of course ways to strike back at the US strategy here, but none of them are particularly pleasant and beyond the mental blocks of people who cling to Liberalism or even just basic decency."
Posted by: Givi | Apr 9 2022 14:26 utc | 83
@thomas
Re: Russia as "white nationalist" state. This sounds like a CIA talking point spread far and wide, leaving a malodorous stain, on Twitter and other disinformation platforms. Russia is objectively and empirically a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural state, multi-denominational state. Many if not most of the Russian soldiers deployed in Ukraine are from the far East, including Chechens. None of whom appear "white" tout court, let alone the sort of Aryan purity demanded by the Nazis. Russia may well be oligarcho-capitalist-fascist, but the Russian Federation is self-evidently not a white supremacist state with *white supremacist* imperialist ambitions.
Posted by: Menelaus | Apr 9 2022 14:32 utc | 84
the possibility that the booster continued its trajectory after the warhead separated?
Posted by: krypton | Apr 9 2022 11:09 utc | 5
Then there would be no separation. It is beginning school physics course, Newton Laws, force of action and force of reaction twins.
You stand on the Earth(floor, stairway, etc) and you push the Earth down.
You atand on the Earth because the Earth pushes you upward. Would for a moment Earth stop pushing you up - you would sink(fall) downwards.
Same with the missile, the warhead "stands" upon the motor section in part because the motor section pushes it "upward" ( with their relative up axis being what we see as their movement forward vector in our Earth-pegged "reference frame" ).
As long as the motor would push the warhead onward - the onward would keep "standing upon" it. To disengage you need to somehow make the forward part move faster than rear part.
You can see space rocket launches, stages separation. They are frequently streamed online.
You would see sequences like those:
stage 1 engine cut off
- some time passes
stage 2 engine fired
stage 2 engine fire burning out links between stages and stage 2 rushes forward as stage 1 falls behind.
Now, warhead does not have engines of its own, but the principle is the same. To make them smoothly separate without chaotic disturbances you have to make forward part move faster than rear part, WH to move faster than M.
Among other other things this is ensured by WH having no fins and air-deflector of well calculated cone-like shape. Motor part has none of it and has those fins and meshes that drag it back (act like airbrakes).
Posted by: Arioch | Apr 9 2022 14:32 utc | 85
The facts do not matter in 'western' media who stick to whatever story they are told to produce.
>AP: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who says he expects a tough global response, and other leaders accused Russia’s military of deliberately attacking the station. Russia, in turn, blamed Ukraine, saying it doesn’t use the kind of missile that hit the station — a contention experts dismissed.
>Guardian: Russia accused of ‘monstrous’ war crime in Kramatorsk station attack -- Volodymyr Zelenskiy likens missile strike to Bucha atrocities after dozens die at train station where civilians were being evacuated to safety
>Washington Post: At least 50 people were killed and 98 injured in what Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky called an “evil” Russian shelling attack on a train station where hundreds of civilians were attempting to flee ahead of expected attacks.
>NewYorkTimes: What Happened on Day 44 of Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine -- Moscow denied responsibility for a missile strike in the eastern city of Kramatorsk that killed at least 50 people. But the Pentagon said Russian forces were behind it.
>Reuters: Russian state television described the attack as a "bloody provocation" by Ukraine. In Washington, a senior defence official said the United States did not accept the Russian denial and believed Russian forces had fired a short-range ballistic missile in the attack.
>PBS: “There are almost no words for it,” European Union Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, who is on a visit to Ukraine, told reporters. “The cynical behavior (by Russia) has almost no benchmark anymore.”
>CNN: At least 50 people, including five children, were killed after Russian forces carried out a missile strike on a railway station in Kramatorsk, eastern Ukraine, that was being used by civilians trying to flee the fighting, Ukrainian officials said Friday.
>Wall Street Journal: Russian Missile Attack Kills Dozens at Railway Station in Eastern Ukraine
>NPR: 50 people were killed in a Russian strike on a train station, Ukrainian officials say
Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 9 2022 14:47 utc | 86
@jr
I assume that mr. Hack is referring to the vernal area, which is separated by a mountain range from the ns* installation which is at the upper end of the jordan valley. Nearnthe data center is the dugway proving ground (bioweapons). At the north of slc is an af base and a chevron refinery. Vernal is also separated by mountains from eastern kolorado (colosprings). The mountain range to the north is smaller and possible targets up there include the sinclair refinery and old sac installations.
Posted by: Platero | Apr 9 2022 14:50 utc | 87
@95:
do you know the facts? facts is: more than 50 dead, many children, more than 100 wounded, many children
Russia has all the motives to spread terror and fear amongst the people in the Ukraine because it wants its war finally becoming a success, and civilians are obstructive to fullscale war methods.
The Russian Federation is an oligarchic capitalist state with the Russian Orthodox Church as an important source of power. The current government espouses white nationalism and conservative values.
One side - Russia under Putin - invaded a sovereign nation and is subjecting its people to senseless brutality. By no means was Putin backed into a tight corner such that full scale invasion was the only option. And, as most analysts thought until the 24th of February, even a calculation in his own interests comes out with war as the worst option. Whatever the rationale for Putin’s invasion - imperialistic adventurism, great-power competition with the West, consolidating autocracy in the home by suppressing democracy at the doorstep – there is no justification for it. Thus, there can be no morally tenable “both-sides” approach when it comes to pressing for a resolution to the conflict. Any sincere effort must begin with the recognition of Russia’s ultimate culpability.
And the many dead and wounded people at Kramagorsk station also fall fully and undebately under Russias and Putin's special responsibility,
Posted by: thomas | Apr 9 2022 14:53 utc | 88
Thanks for all your efforts to share the truth of our world b
These are acts of extreme desperation, IMO. Not just war crimes.
I believe this desperation stems partially from the success of the Russian military activity which has trapped NATO military folk in one or more places.
Another part of the desperation is the response of the international community against empire sanctions of Russia.
Another part of the desperation is China/Russia together
The final part of the desperation is that the God of Mammon cult see themselves losing and are fearful of what may happen to them and their family in the process.......if they could kill all of us and get away with it they would and feel no more guilt than they already carry around with themselves.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 9 2022 14:55 utc | 89
Posted by: Menelaus | Apr 9 2022 14:32 utc | 91
Yeah, lol, RF is multicultural, meanwhile this borderlands regime wants everyone to act like SS Galizia or die, but somehow it's RF who are fascists; nevermind that KPRF is the opposition force, and Kiev natoist bastards have been outlawing opposition withcno second thoughrs.
No contemporary national project that rests on outlawing languages is worthy of support or even respect
Posted by: Arganthonios | Apr 9 2022 14:55 utc | 90
@thomas
You are just cutting aand pasting over and again. Don’t you have anything original to say?
Posted by: Platero | Apr 9 2022 14:55 utc | 91
. . .from PBS/AP:
WATCH: Pentagon press secretary John Kirby calls attack on Ukraine train station a ‘piece of Russian brutality’ .
Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby says the missile attack at a Ukrainian train station on Friday is a “piece of Russian brutality” in this war.
“We find unconvincing Russian claims that they weren’t involved,” said Kirby.
“Particularly when the ministry actually announced it. And then when they saw reports of civilian casualties decided to then unannounce it. So our assessment is that that this was a Russian strike and that they used a short range ballistic missile to to conduct it.”. . .here
Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 9 2022 15:01 utc | 92
Posted by: thomas | Apr 9 2022 14:53 utc | 98
Hey ukro-bot, stop spamming. Nobody gives a care about your MSM talking points.
Posted by: Boo | Apr 9 2022 15:01 utc | 93
You are correct to report this even if its only just for historical value, for future generations will undoubtably want to know the truth.
Meanwhile
Germany has no more weapons to give Ukraine, Christine Lambrecht suggest that the Ukrainian government can buy weapons straight from the manufacturers.
"The German military can no longer supply Ukraine with weapons from its stockpiles, Germany’s Defense Minister Christine Lambrecht has said.
In an interview with Die Augsburger Allgemeine Zeitung published on Saturday, Lambrecht said that while “we all have an obligation to support Ukraine in its courageous fight,” in terms of “supplies from the Bundeswehr’s stockpiles” Germany has “in the meantime reached a limit.” She explained that the German military had to “be able to ensure” the country’s own defense."
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 9 2022 15:08 utc | 94
@ my 103
Kirby, the Pentagon spokesperson, in the video, also goes over what assistance the Pentagon is giving to Ukraine, especially mentioning small arms ammunition and intelligence regarding Russian forces in Donbass.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 9 2022 15:08 utc | 95
Sushi above has it just right:
"I suspect a great many of the persons we refer to as being brainwashed are simply equally busy. Their attention is focused elsewhere. They trust the state and its conduct. They trust the media. They believe what scarps of information make it through the factoid bombardment that is a common aspect of daily life. They inhabot a "system" and they hold the belief that the "system" works. It is the "system" that delivers their electricity or NG and permits them to heat their homes, cook their meals, transport kids and groceries.
"When the "system" becomes incapable of delivering the normal flow of events we call "life" then people will begin to ask why. And when they begin to ask questions and discover they have been lied to on a conistent basis by elites who are insulated from the impacts of their decisions, at that time I suspect we will see a massive increase in distrust and a loss of credibility that will not be easily restored.
"And it is this loss of trust in the "system" what will result in social upheaval, the overthrow of governments, riots in capitols, and politicians wearing neckties and hanging from lampposts.
"It will not be pretty."
And we will all get to experience the truth of Putin's assertion that security is interdependent.
Posted by: Boomheist | Apr 9 2022 15:09 utc | 96
thomas
Kramagorsk station also fall fully and undebately under Russias and Putin's special responsibility
Your claim is hollow, is it not, if the missile part number shows it comes from UKR inventory ?
Posted by: Lapin | Apr 9 2022 15:14 utc | 97
The USA is setting up its Patriot missile system in Slovakia which borders Ukraine,Prior to the Pentagon announcement, Slovakian Prime Minister Eduard Heger had revealed that his country would transfer its S-300 air defense system to neighboring Ukraine to fight Russian forces operating in the country.
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Apr 9 2022 15:15 utc | 98
Excellent summary from b:
Everyone who urges to give more arms to the Ukraine or who eggs it on to continue this war is guilty of creating impetus for more incidents like the one seen in Kramatorsk.
So-called "reporters" who obediently parrot the murderer's own account (the murderer's own serial number on the murder weapon, for God's sake!) encourage more and worse massacres, egging on to the point of culpability. Obvious nonsense such as thomas', in this thread, drips in blood. Impatiently demanding more and more Ukranian carnage to satisfy their manifest bloodlust. How terrible it must be to actually inhabit such a consciousness.
On a couple of occasions, Amy Goodman (of DemocracyNow!) had confided on the air about her Ukranian grandfather -- whose spirit evidently inspires her to recurrently lie about the slaughter going on in the Donbass for the past eight years. Look at all the blood, the blood!
Posted by: Aleph_Null | Apr 9 2022 15:16 utc | 99
The "estimated" reconstructed flight path of the missile by amateurs is not particularly useful. Some agency/entity must have picked up the missile on their radar. I find it odd that neither side has published that data.
That it was a Ukrainian issued missile is beyond reasonable doubt. It could have come from the east (as thomas suggests), as a large contingent of the UAF forces are fighting there. That is also where the missile that landed in downtown Donetsk a couple of weeks ago came from.
What seems obvious, according to other videos and analysis posted on Telegram, is that this was a hybrid staged event (like the Boston Marathon bombing) with anti-Russian propaganda as the end goal. The fire in the 4 cars on the east side of the building was a distraction. That fire was very unlikely to have been started by the missile, as many have pointed out, the west face of the station does not have a single scratch or broken window.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Apr 9 2022 15:25 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
The propaganda on this is still strong here in the UK on the BBC.
Posted by: JohninMK | Apr 9 2022 10:54 utc | 1