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March 24, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-34

Only news & views related to the Ukraine conflict ...

Posted by b on March 24, 2022 at 12:40 UTC | Permalink

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Yves Smith has a post up about Putin's roubles-for-gas declaration. This is in her wheelhouse and worth a read. She also discusses the Dallas Fed's new paper on the impacts of sanctions on the oil market. Conclusion: at least as severe an impact as OPEC in the 70s.

Naked Capitalism on roubles-for-gas

Posted by: HMP | Mar 24 2022 12:46 utc | 1

The West is creating the next "al Qaeda" in Ukraine, an insurgency to survive after Ukraine's surrender.
It took years but the al Qaeda the CIA created in Afghanistan in the 70s eventually
created a major blow back.

I believe the CIA loves to swim in shit. So creating blow back is manna from heaven to the CIA.

Posted by: librul | Mar 24 2022 12:51 utc | 2

Pay attention to the briefing about biolabs, seems like Hunter Biden was involved, among many others.

https://t.me/glavmedia/156815

Posted by: Paco | Mar 24 2022 12:52 utc | 3

Any chance that Belarus will "invade" in the coming days, dividing West Ukraine from the rest of the country, so that when/if Poland sends its "peacekeeping" mission, it does not advance beyond the Belorussians?

Posted by: AnalyticMind | Mar 24 2022 13:03 utc | 4

The BBC reporting that more weapons are being sent to Ukraine because the Uk believes that the Ukraine can win and needs the weapons to do so. No addressing the cognitive dissonance then.

Posted by: Vragtes | Mar 24 2022 13:03 utc | 5

@5 Vragtes

The Brutes should send more mercs. A lot of incinerated mercenary corpse photos on Telegram, they must be running short of hirepower.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Mar 24 2022 13:14 utc | 6

Hospital Tochka found?

A photo has emerged online of the engine part of a Ukrainian Tochka-U missile on the streets of Mariupol. This may be one of the two missiles that may have hit the hospital.

The photo has not been geolocated. Note, that warhead separates from the engine before impact.

***

There is an interesting interview of Oleg Tsarev, nominal leader of Novorossiya in KP.ru. Two days ago a photo of him appeared of him somewhere west of Kiev standing on a BMP with a Soviet flag.

Oleg Tsarev: “The majority is for Putin to be president in Ukraine. I join them"

This is the Kyiv region - not Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk or Zaporozhye - to say that everywhere we are welcome and welcome to the Russian world ... I would not say that. They, as a rule, do not care what flag will fly over the district administration. They need medicines, food, jobs, salaries, pensions.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Mar 24 2022 13:14 utc | 7

An independent journo, Patrick Lancaster, makes videos on the ground in the war zone. He doesn't seem like a corporate/spy shill. Here's an interview with locas from Mariupol (with subtitles):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhLB5Wp1lGs

Meanwhile the Russiasn are building new highway in Crimea - "Tavrida"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHITvjI3aZo

Posted by: Stefan | Mar 24 2022 13:15 utc | 8

Hi Guys,
Can any of you offer any advice about how to persuade friends and family to look beyond the MSM bullshit?
I've tried suggesting sites and saying, "just so you can at least see the other side of the story", but they treat me like I'm the fool who is swallowing propaganda. Even people who have known me for years(I'm English, by the way) think I have been brainwashed because I contradict the BBC's false narrative. Any suggestions?

Posted by: Steve | Mar 24 2022 13:26 utc | 9

TTF natgas (ICE) seeing another 10% daily increase today in front month, another 8% increase for DEC'23, which I'm using as my reference point for next heating season in EU.

EU likely to come under intense pressure from Blinken/Sullivan to refuse Russian commerce and make drastic reductions in energy use instead.

Posted by: ptb | Mar 24 2022 13:32 utc | 10

correction DEC'22

Posted by: ptb | Mar 24 2022 13:33 utc | 11

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Mar 24 2022 13:14 utc | 6

Apparently Ukrainian are executing foreign mercenaries/volunteers that insubordinate or deserting and left their corpse purposefully unidentified. DPR found many of such bodies inside their abandoned dugouts that see no battle yet.

Posted by: Lucci | Mar 24 2022 13:34 utc | 12

Posted by: AnalyticMind | Mar 24 2022 13:03 utc | 4

It's possible, although I think Russia would prefer that Russiat does do it. I don't think the goal is to separate western Ukraine from the rest of the country - although you bring up an interesting possibility - that Belarus would control it rather than Russia, but for the benefit of both by excluding Poland and NATO. I'd have to think about that.

I think it would be a good move, as I've said repeatedly, to send a force to control the Polish border and seize Lvov. But it's not certain that Russia or Belarus has the logistics in place to do it immediately. Russia could divert some of its forces from Kiev and join up with a Belarus column I suppose. But then it would have to reinforce is forces near Kiev.

The US has military forces right near the Belarus-Polish border as well, which may well be why Belarus was sending those forces towards Brest. So it's not clear what's going to happen. We'll just have to wait and see.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Mar 24 2022 13:38 utc | 13

@9

Joe Lauria reports this morning there were two leaks by MoD providing facts to fight against the MSM hysteria.

https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/23/pentagon-drops-truth-bombs-to-stave-off-war-with-russia/

There is currently a fight between MoD, the President, the Congress and the MSM over the next actions to take over Ukraine. Maybe I am exagerating a bit but they feel the dangers of escalating this any further.

Posted by: Richard L | Mar 24 2022 13:38 utc | 14

Steve - we are caught up in a war of dualing fascisms. As such there is no objective truth to be found in either western MSM or sites such as MoA which rely exclusively on Russian and Chinese government propaganda for the daily, thin gruel alongside the repetitive links a very small handful of "influencers" who are under thrall of same governments, who are quickly discarded at the first hint of not following the party line.

Both sides are steeped in opposite disinformational propaganda campaigns. As such you simply must choose a side and enjoy talking past each other. Have a nice day Steve.

Posted by: Useless meat beater | Mar 24 2022 13:43 utc | 15

@14 I meant DoD, not MoD as I have written. Sorry for the typo.

Posted by: Richard L | Mar 24 2022 13:43 utc | 16

@14 Richard L

Maybe I am exagerating a bit but they feel the dangers of escalating this any further.

The neocons have to stopped every time, they only have to succeed once. And they're always pushing at the door. They're incapable of taking a step back, ever just like the Israelis they embrace as their true fellow countrymen.

But after the whole Russiagate hysteria, the progressives won't slow them down either. Biden and the sane generals seem committed to this not turning into a direct shooting war between Russia and the US or NATO. But they seem to feel too safe with merely thinking events won't spiral out of control the longer this goes on and aren't taking steps to help end the war. And trust from the Russians is just gone. There is none, so they can't rely on the Russians not to assume an action taken by the neocons to step up a war didn't have Biden's approval or won't be defended by him.

Posted by: Altai | Mar 24 2022 13:50 utc | 17

LOL! I'm sorry, but you gotta love Kim's timing, synchronizing the test of his most advanced ICBM with USNATO's Summit and the vote on Ukraine's Humanitarian Resolution at the UNGA. Ha-ha-ha! What a card that Kim is!

SEOUL, March 24 (Reuters) - North Korea conducted what is thought to be its largest intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) test ever on Thursday, the South Korean and Japanese militaries said, marking a dramatic end to a self-imposed moratorium on long-range testing.

It would be the first full-capability launch of the nuclear-armed state's largest missiles since 2017, and represents a major step in the North's development of weapons that might be able to deliver nuclear warheads anywhere in the United States.

Read on; it's priceless!

North Korea puts West on notice That's my title 😉.

Posted by: Circe | Mar 24 2022 13:53 utc | 18

@9 Steve

Read about deprograming people from cults, the PsyOps use very similar tactics to cults. It takes time and patience, they have a pure vision of the truth which they don’t want polluted by your impure thoughts.

Posted by: Turk 152 | Mar 24 2022 13:56 utc | 19

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Mar 24 2022 13:38 utc | 13

It looks like Hungary and Poland have to grab their chunk of land first!

See for example: https://www.rt.com/russia/552496-ukraine-hungary-russia-criticism/

Posted by: Barofsky | Mar 24 2022 13:58 utc | 20

Posted by: librul | Mar 24 2022 12:51 utc | 2

It might as well create some Russian anti-western "Slavic State" if Russia gets crushed...

Posted by: zet | Mar 24 2022 13:58 utc | 21

Steve, tell them the truth: everything that the West's MSM says or prints is a lie. Russia and China basically tell the truth. Leave it up to them. You're not responsible for their ignorance and their pride in ignorance. Learn to laugh at them when they repeat the lies. Save your breath otherwise. Patrick

Posted by: pdb | Mar 24 2022 13:59 utc | 22

@Steve #9
It is a waste of time arguing.

What I do:

Verify what they believe (Russia is losing, Russia is stalled etc etc) then simply note that the mainstream media isn't necessarily accurate. Just stick to that line and don't bother going frontal assault.

Then when Ukraine surrenders, you can revisit.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 24 2022 14:03 utc | 23

@ Posted by: Steve | Mar 24 2022 13:26 utc | 9

That is the crux of the problem Steve - how can one force others to see and to think? This is a case of the question provides the answer, I think.

The question relates to the wider question of how does one or many combat facism? There was a Will Smith movie, humanity infected by a virus which turned those affected into blood-thirsty zombies. It turned everyone he knew into a zombie, including those who he loved or who had helped himto find the virus. Everyone is turning facist. This is done to combat something that important people fear. In the past I think it was communism or even populism. When wishing to persuade people, it helps if you are beautiful, rich and successful.

I think it comes down to either lead by example or vote with your feet. I think one satisfying step would be to invest in Russia - no doubt a crime. Or speak carefully in a way that is non confrontational. In many cases people are not ready to hear.

Posted by: jared | Mar 24 2022 14:11 utc | 24

Analytic mind #4

Russia could allow Belarus to take Lvov and its hinterland in the first instance or if it prefers less headaches for Belarus and itself, just give it to Poland in the coming treaties. With one condition, Lvov and surrounds never ever has Nato come in for any reason. Ie make Lvov and surrounds a Free City in autonomous Galician/Ukro area but all taxation , currency ,trade and all foreign affairs handled by Poland .

Title defaults to Russia ,at Russia’s suspicion that the terms are not being met ,with no notice to Poland at all. That will ensure Poland is on its best behaviour.

This is to be independent of what Russia wants or demands of Poland , in future or even now , re NATO encroachment.

Posted by: Brother Ma | Mar 24 2022 14:12 utc | 25

Posted by: Steve | Mar 24 2022 13:26 utc | 9

How I do communicate with propagandized ppl? I keep it to the economic difficulties that are arising for Germans. Even if you are a believer, most ppl see the difficulties coming. I refer to the santions on Russia and how these are supposed to be enforced, when China is supporting Russia and Russia can basically buy everything from China. In return, China gets Russian commodities. So we are out. How should we keep your factories going, if we dont get the raw materials and energy. How are the workers to be paid. Prices will keep rising, especially energy.

This is just basic stuff most ppl understand and agree with. That is usually enough to put a dent in their propaganda armor.

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Mar 24 2022 14:19 utc | 26

I have an older, baby boomer friend who, while critical about other reportage, believes everything the MSM has to say about Russia, not to mention China. his entire formative life has been steeped in cold war propaganda against Russia. there's no way to de-program or re-program that unless the motivation comes from within.

on a deeper level, it goes beyond the assessment of information and is already part of an emotional conditioning. that can't be changed with persuasion, and such attempts meet with even greater resistance. they just double down.

Posted by: mastameta | Mar 24 2022 14:25 utc | 27

We're at day, what 27 now ? I think it's the occasion to point out several major misses in predictions :

- last week it was predicted that Mariupol would fall in 4-7 days (DPR, Intel Slava). We're 9 days later and Mariupol show no signs of falling soon.
- since about day 3 of the operation many people, Saker included, have predicted encirclement in the East. Now my impression is that encirclement is far from done, there are still three roads linking the Eastern forces to Dnipro.

Sorry to sound sarcastic, it's just that I'm horribly frustrated myself. It does seem indeed as if the operation has stalled and we've reached an equilibrium. the only way to break this equilibrium is to bring more resources and troops. I don't know the Russian plan here but I sure hope they have one.

Key predictions I will follow until end of March :
- several forecasts, by the French army, by Defense Politics Asia, that the Ukrainians would run out of fuel and ammo and weapons somewhere at the end of March. If beginning of April I don't see signs, I will slowly despair...

I must say that so far the one which has been closest to the reality was Strelkov, although he's horribly depressing to read and far too pessimistic. However I can't help but notice that Saker and Martyanov were way too optimistic at the beginning.

Posted by: Micron | Mar 24 2022 14:27 utc | 28

According to consortium news, the pentagram is now having to dampen the flames of facism a bit - a piece in newsweek to the affect of "why is russia not bombing crap out of ukraine" answer being that likely they are trying to reduce civilian casualties and damage to Ukraine.

This is also an effective counter to facism, but will get little play outside fox news echo chamber: https://t.me/asbmil/898

Posted by: jared | Mar 24 2022 14:33 utc | 29

Steve et all re de-programming from the cult of mainstream media...

Too late for that, unless as someone says, a person approaches you for your opinion. Otherwise if it's just one world view pitched against another - futility.

Concentrate on laying in some stores, provisioning for emergency conditions - remember they all laughed at Noah. It's only in the end 'they' will see their folly of putting faith in charlatans and liars.

If you must try to save someone from the cult of trusting for-profit authority, you can trace the history of lies from the Empire of lies - from the mid-20th Century onward, it has all been the work of propagandists to forge USA! USA! USA!

Posted by: gottlieb | Mar 24 2022 14:34 utc | 30

Posted by: Steve | Mar 24 2022 13:26 utc | 9

Make your friends aware of the huge difference between the treatment of Ukrainian and, for example, Syrian war refugees and ask them how they explain it.

Posted by: Pnyx | Mar 24 2022 14:42 utc | 31

For those who ask for support to counter mainstream views.

Richard L | Mar 24 2022 13:38 utc

Has posted a Consortium News story that links to a NewsWeek article, with lots of twaddle but also very direct quotes from anonymous sources, a US Air Force and a DIA Analyst.

I've excerpted the meatier bits to send to a friend who always says "Don't link to any of your Russian liars or non-US sources."

This is an article in Newsweek (hosted by MSN Microsoft News) with a Pentagon assessment of Russia’s methods in Ukraine. Note the DIA Analyst and US Air Force officer agree:

"I'm frustrated by the current narrative—that Russia is intentionally targeting civilians, that it is demolishing cities, and that Putin doesn't care. Such a distorted view stands in the way of finding an end before true disaster hits or the war spreads to the rest of Europe," the second U.S. Air Force officer says.”

"I know that the news keeps repeating that Putin is targeting civilians, but there is no evidence that Russia is intentionally doing so," says the DIA analyst. "In fact, I'd say that Russian could be killing thousands more civilians if it wanted to."

Putin's Bombers Could Devastate Ukraine But He's Holding Back. Here's Why

As destructive as the Ukraine war is, Russia is causing less damage and killing fewer civilians than it could, U.S. intelligence experts say.

Russia's conduct in the brutal war tells a different story than the widely accepted view that Vladimir Putin is intent on demolishing Ukraine and inflicting maximum civilian damage—and it reveals the Russian leader's strategic balancing act.

...
As of the past weekend, in 24 days of conflict, Russia has flown some 1,400 strike sorties and delivered almost 1,000 missiles (by contrast, the United States flew more sorties and delivered more weapons in the first day of the 2003 Iraq war). The vast majority of the airstrikes are over the battlefield, with Russian aircraft providing "close air support" to ground forces. The remainder—less than 20 percent, according to U.S. experts—has been aimed at military airfields, barracks and supporting depots.

A proportion of those strikes have damaged and destroyed civilian structures and killed and injured innocent civilians, but the level of death and destruction is low compared to Russia's capacity.

"I know it's hard ... to swallow that the carnage and destruction could be much worse than it is," says the DIA analyst. "But that's what the facts show. This suggests to me, at least, that Putin is not intentionally attacking civilians, that perhaps he is mindful that he needs to limit damage in order to leave an out for negotiations."


When it came to Ukraine, not only did many observers "mirror-image" Russian objectives to match U.S. practices, they also made premature (and incorrect) observations that Russia was fighting such a conflict.

Even before Russian ground forces reached Kyiv and other cities, this narrative goes, the air and missile forces would have so damaged Ukraine—including its communications and other infrastructure needed for defenses to continue working—that it would secure victory on the ground.


The fabric of communications in the country continues to operate intact. There has been no methodical Russian attack on transportation routes or bridges to impede Ukrainian ground defenses or supplies. Though electrical power plants have been hit, they are all in contested territory or near military installations and deployments. None have been intentionally targeted.

In fact, there has been no methodical bombing campaign to achieve any systemic outcome of a strategic nature. Air and missile strikes, which initially seemed to tell one story, have almost exclusively been in direct support of ground forces.


"I'm frustrated by the current narrative—that Russia is intentionally targeting civilians, that it is demolishing cities, and that Putin doesn't care. Such a distorted view stands in the way of finding an end before true disaster hits or the war spreads to the rest of Europe," the second U.S. Air Force officer says.

Heartbreaking images make it easy for the news to focus on the war's damage to buildings and lives. But in proportion to the intensity of the fighting (or Russia's capacity), things could indeed be much worse.

"I know that the news keeps repeating that Putin is targeting civilians, but there is no evidence that Russia is intentionally doing so," says the DIA analyst. "In fact, I'd say that Russian could be killing thousands more civilians if it wanted to."

I do try to keep an eye out for "credible" sources, that in this case show professionals who not only point out the errors in the news, but explain why those are not helpful.

We need to pry away at the small cracks in the narrative, which word by the way means "story" and, no small point, every piece of fiction has a "narrative." That's for another post!

Posted by: jonku | Mar 24 2022 14:42 utc | 32

@17 Altai

If you are right, those two DoD leaks are just a smoke screen; a way of playing good cop bad cop. The White House staff will escalate the Ukraine conflict anyway with the help of CIA&friends and wage an endless undercover urban warfare with the MSM complicity. Anyway we will see soon enough.

Posted by: Richard L | Mar 24 2022 14:43 utc | 33

Beatless Meat Eater - In these troubled times, I trust comments such as the one you made help to put a smile on b's face. We've witnessed all kinds of fantasy-land commentary, but the only dualing (your spelling) fascism around here is the one occurring between your ears. Or aren't you capable of learning? Well, check it out - the tables are turning. Good luck with that.

Posted by: thecelticwithinme | Mar 24 2022 14:44 utc | 34

Steve - your first comment could have been me writing, and I'm Welsh. For now I have given up, especially as most of the 'I am now Ukrainian' are still 100% in the 'We believe everything our government tells us about Covid19' camp. Hook, line and sinker. The intellectual laziness I can cope with (up to a point) but the anger, nastiness and the vitriol, from sad. 'Normal' family and friends have become so self-righteous! I describe it like this: Brexit split the country, family, friends roughly 50% - 50%. Covid percentage has been about 90% - 10%, in support for Gov. Mandates etc. With Ukraine it appears to be 99% to 1% in support for USA/CIA/NATO/MI6 propaganda. It is tragic. Truly tragic.

Posted by: Geraint ap Iorwerth | Mar 24 2022 14:45 utc | 35

Celtic

Likewise, ignorant comments and the type of ideologically incoherent posts such as b's of late also put a smile on my face.

Glad we can all laugh about the War in Ukraine.

Posted by: Useless meat beater | Mar 24 2022 14:57 utc | 36

Posted by: Steve | Mar 24 2022 13:26 utc | 9

1. Begin by showing them earlier articles from "mainstream" sources--Guardian, BBC, Times, etc.--that carry a very different narrative from today. Focus on sources that talk about the very big and very real nazi problem in Ukraine.

2. Direct them to "mainstream" "realist" conservative voices that are published in mainstream press or connected with major universities to give them a sense that some "established" 'non-conspiracy' people think differently from the mob: Mearsheimer videos, Peter Hitchens, George Kennan.

3. Recommend that they at least watch Ukraine on Fire.

I found that this has worked for me with some family members.

Posted by: WJ | Mar 24 2022 14:59 utc | 37

Steve - I think c1ue has given best response. IMO, this is the same mass formation psychosis discussed by Robert Malone and Joe Rogan that was present during the plandemic, also probably in Germany during WWII and also, IMO, in Ukraine at this time. The western Ukrainian speaking inhabitants seem to be filled with unreasonable hate of the eastern Russian speakers and any Ukrainians who are for peace. There are short terrifying videos online of people tied to telephone poles or trees or lampposts, with their hands tied behind their backs and disrobed from the waist down. Some videos show unidentified people hitting them with belts or sticks. it is bizarre - I mean it is on the order of stocks in midieval times where people's heads and arms were stuck in holes in standing boards and people did what they wished to them.
There has to be some kind of madness present in the people who think this is all right to do to their fellow citizens.
This is of course an extreme example of mass formation psychosis.
There was a poll in Canada asking unjabbed and jabbed people what they thought should be done about the situation in the Ukraine. It was startling to see that jabbed people are all in for many heavy sanctions and actions against the Russians during this police action, in contrast with the views of unjabbed people!
I am sorry this does not give any hints on how to deal with the msm news worshippers but IMO there is none. There may never be one.

Posted by: lizzie | Mar 24 2022 15:00 utc | 38

@Posted by: gottlieb | Mar 24 2022 14:34 utc | 29

"It's only in the end 'they' will see their folly of putting faith in charlatans and liars."

No they won't.

Posted by: librul | Mar 24 2022 15:01 utc | 39

A prominent U Tuber (TimCast) says a bunch of redditors went to Ukraine to fight against the Rooskies.
The redditers used their phone, photos and posts, alerted the Rooskies to their location, and got a warhead killing 100 Ukraine forces

Posted by: Carl | Mar 24 2022 15:05 utc | 40

"More than half of Americans believe President Biden has been too weak in his response to Russia over Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine, and only about a quarter of Americans have confidence in his ability to handle a crisis, according to a new poll released Thursday.

"Overall, 56% believe the president has not reacted forcefully enough to the Kremlin invasion launched on Feb. 24, while 36% say he has handled it “about right,” and just 6% think he has been “too tough,” according to an Associated Press/NORC survey." NY POST

War-mongers correlate with the % of "Americans" who take Big Pharma anti-depressants and regularly walk around with 'suicidal' thoughts. We've heard of suicide by cop; this is suicide by WWIII.

Posted by: gottlieb | Mar 24 2022 15:17 utc | 41

Special Prize for Ukrainian's

Special Prize" from the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine - those liable for military service who violate the curfew and traffic rules will be handed summons to the front

In Ukraine, they came up with a new way to replenish the ranks of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The patrol police will be engaged in the forced delivery of subpoenas and the subsequent sending to the front of all citizens who violate the curfew or do not comply with traffic rules, said Alexei Beloshitsky, deputy head of the country's patrol police.

“For the duration of the war, all impolite at checkpoints, curfew violators and gross violators of traffic rules will receive a special prize. In addition to administrative responsibility, we also contribute to obtaining such a special gift as a referral to the military medical commission with further registration in the units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine,” Beloshitsky wrote on Facebook*.

From now on, in Ukraine, the order is as follows: left the house in the village on the street to the toilet at curfew - be ready to be sent to the front line. Exceeded the speed limit or missed a pedestrian - welcome to the army!

* banned in Russia

Posted by: Kim | Mar 24 2022 15:19 utc | 42

It is useful to read for those who do not yet know how the Ukrainian propaganda of lies works.

Posted by: alaff | Mar 24 2022 15:20 utc | 43

I saw a great graphic somewhere displaying opinions on the Ukraine war by Covid vaccination status. Surprising nobody, the folks who believed all the news on Covid also believe all the news spin on Ukraine. Those who were skeptical on Covid, are also skeptical on Ukraine.

Mainstream liberals tend to be very trusting of government and the media.* Progressive libs, especially the anti-war libs, are more skeptical, especially on foreign policy. (They probably know more history too.) And on the Right, we see the populist/ isolationist wing of the Republican party wondering what exactly the US interest is in Ukraine. So we get Tulsi Gabbard in agreement with Tucker Carlson against the Establishment middle.

*Not sure why they should be so trusting. Anybody that lived through the Gulf War knows the president lied and the media was complicit.

Two issues i would like to see get far more attention than they are:

1) This is a US neocon war. The neocons dominate the foreign policy establishment. The same folks that brought us all those wars over the last 20 years are out to get Russia. In particular, someone should write a big piece on Victoria Nuland and her husband Robert Kagan. We all know Nuland was deeply involved in the 2014 coup under Obama. She now works in the State Department under Biden. Meanwhile her husband Robert Kagan, founder of PNAC, shapes public opinion by writing op-eds in the influential Washington Post. There is a Jewish connection here, although I don’t want to dwell on it. too much. There is a new interview w Michael Hudson over at Saker that very briefly touches this issue. American Jewish Neocon are rabidly anti-Russia in a way that the Israelis are not. Interesting.

2) The war between the US and Russia began in Syria. Not enough is made of this connection. Russia thwarted US plans to overthrow Assad. And why was the US trying to do that? Surprise, surprise, Israel turns up again.

Posted by: Joe | Mar 24 2022 15:22 utc | 44

Posted by: Steve | Mar 24 2022 13:26 utc | 9
Can any of you offer any advice about how to persuade friends and family to look beyond the MSM bullshit?

Here in Oz, I've found a similar situation. And I learned, by accident, that while you can't change peoples views you can undermine them. No one believed me at work, amongst friends etc.

So I gave up explaining things. Instead, once at work I just said: "I don't believe the media bullsh!t. They lied about Iraq, they lied about Vietnam, they lied about Libya but now I'm supposed to believe the media bullshit? Hell, even the advertising is usually a lie. Don't know what's really going on, but I don't believe a word these bastards are telling me".

And that worked!! A couple of peole laughed, but it worked. Next lunch time the same guys were talking about what they'd found on the internet. And they weren't just saying MSM bullshit.

Lsesson I learned: Never claim you know better!! Simply say "I don't know, but I know I don't believe this lot". That it turns out is the gold statement.

It's not a quick process. But it works. Try it.

Posted by: anon | Mar 24 2022 15:28 utc | 45

Steve@9

The easiest and the surest way of exposing the lies of the BBC and the other media is to concentrate on their stories about 1/ How the Russians are being defeated, losing thousands of men and tanks and
2/ The stories about the massive damage being caused by "total war".

The first takes care of itself. Just explain what is going to happen and contrast it with what the BBC is saying.

The second is not difficult either- there are webcams that show people walking around Kiev-business as almost normal. Then there is the fact, which is really astonishing, that Russia continues to supply Europe with gas through a pipeline running right though the war zone. The flow of gas has actually increased since the war started.

When people begin to realise that you are right, the Ukrainian forces are in retreat or about to surrender, rather than fight to the heroic death, they will become amenable to historical reason.

And the story of what happened to the eastern Russian speaking regions since Maidan is very clear and compelling, tell it and it becomes obvious that Russia had no alternative. If it hadn't recognised the two 'republics' there would have been a bloodbath as the Azov led troops set about ethnic cleansing to get rid of the hated Russian speakers and conquer the land- famous for its black earth agriculture- for western settlers.

The old dream of Lebensraum that their English grandparents (the most mobilised population in the War) wasted their lives fighting to prevent, arm in arm with the Russian Army. A dream now revived under US sponsorship in order to weaken Russia so that the US can rule the world the way it does Britain.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 24 2022 15:34 utc | 46

Hysteria in Poland

In Poland, local authorities solemnly demolished a monument to the soldiers-liberators of the Red Army

Broadcast from the scene in the Chrzowice area in the south-west of the country was broadcast live by Polish television. First, a five-pointed star with a hammer and sickle was joyfully removed from the monument, and then its systematic destruction began.

“There is no place for a red star in the public space of a free, independent and democratic Poland. There is no place for red stars in the public space of a free Europe,” Karol Nawrocki, director of the Institute of National Remembrance of Poland, solemnly declared.

The monument in Chrzowice was erected in 1949 at the site of the death of 620 Red Army soldiers of the 1st Ukrainian Front for the liberation of the Poles from the Nazis. The monument was an obelisk with an inscription in Russian and Polish "Eternal glory to the heroes of the Soviet army who died for the freedom of peoples in 1945."

Posted by: Kim | Mar 24 2022 15:35 utc | 47

"Zelensky is Jewish so how can there be Nazis in Ukraine?"

"US foreign policy is evidently held hostage by a venal, avaricious and, above all, reckless claque of elites
known as neocons." They represent an extremely tiny minority of Americans, their influence vastly exceeds
their numbers.

Likewise the number of Ukrainians waving Wolfsangel flags is tiny compared to their obvious influence.

Posted by: librul | Mar 24 2022 15:45 utc | 48

random: Su-34 with some kind of sensor/ECM pod under the middle, sticking out below the engine housings for clear view to the sides. In addition to the usual wingtip pods.

https://anna-news.info/boevaya-rabota-su-34-v-hode-spetsialnoj-voennoj-operatsii/

Posted by: ptb | Mar 24 2022 15:47 utc | 49

Claim here that Russia may have broken through final Azov defenses in Mariupol, eliminating many.

https://twitter.com/NovichokRossiya/status/1507016326321123334?s=20&t=w3wvNIoLoy1zRbFq161P-g

Posted by: joncutt | Mar 24 2022 15:47 utc | 50

Trying to make people change their views doesn't work.

Not even in the same family - my parents (both over 70 years old) got into a heated argument over the Russia-Ukraine war. My mother doesn't believe what the TV keeps telling her, and has been following events in Ukraine since 2014 - she blames NATO - and Ukraine - for causing that war. My father blames Russia, and Putin.

I tell them what my point of view is - and listen to them when they tell me theirs. Maybe they will think about what I said, and look some things up on the Internet.

Posted by: Martina | Mar 24 2022 15:47 utc | 51

Great post Anon. Thats the same strategy I use with regular people

"So I gave up explaining things. Instead, once at work I just said: "I don't believe the media bullsh!t. They lied about Iraq, they lied about Vietnam, they lied about Libya but now I'm supposed to believe the media bullshit? Hell, even the advertising is usually a lie. Don't know what's really going on, but I don't believe a word these bastards are telling me". "

As long as you start with that and that you believe un world peace, freedom and properity to ALL (not just westerners)

I also bring up recent proven false mass lies such as:
- Russia stole the election
- anything Dr Fauchi has said
- Hunter Bidens laptop is Russian Disinfo

Lies lies lies lies

How can we possibly belive them fully on Ukraine???

Posted by: comandante | Mar 24 2022 15:49 utc | 52

For those who missed them, here're my reports on our Patreon patron Zoom meeting with Dr. Hudson yesterday:

Thanks for the replies!! I just finished my Zoom conference with Dr. Hudson and his other Patreon patrons and learned his POV on several things. First, almost every EU politico is bought by the Outlaw US Empire. Two, if nations were to try and exit EU and go sovereign as I suggested up thread, they'd be attacked by CIA's Terrorist Foreign Legion and Gladio elements; so, if a nation contemplates doing that, it must seriously prepare to defend itself. Third, the elements behind the scenes controlling those who control the Duopoly are Fascists as my research suggests (When I asked him about this, Hudson's face lit up surprised that someone else has come to the same conclusion as him.) and are centered in the CIA/NSA/National Security Complex very much as William Gruff has hypothesized. Fourth, The Outlaw US Empire's aim is to destroy Europe by denying its ability to trade with Eurasia and become even further dependent on the Empire. Fifth, I asked directly if the Outlaw US Empire would accept being subordinated to Eurasia once the Putin Doctrine remakes the international order or if it would blow up the world; Hudson replied that given Russia's great advantage in weapons technology that they probably wouldn't make the attempt. Sixth, elaborating on the nature of the Neoliberalcons, Hudson said they're awash in the false reality they've created, although they seem to understand the reality of Russia's military superiority; otherwise, they don't seem to care about anything--I've been saying they're Anti-Human, but I didn't ask if he thought the same, although IMO he implied as much. Seventh, it's very unlikely that there'll be E-versions of his books because of their content. Eighth, the new international currency will likely be a basket of currencies, gold, and perhaps some other commodities as we've speculated and will likely be centered in Shanghai. I wish we had more time as the question of China continuing to hold treasuries wasn't asked, nor were others having merit.

Again, Hudson's adamant that the main target of this current phase of Outlaw US Empire aggression is aimed at Europe exclusively while using Russia as a Straw Man for all but the Empire to attack as the sanctions chart above shows very well. You can become involved in this manner with Dr. Hudson by becoming a patron via Patreon at the $9/mo level or higher, which you can access through his website. I'm hoping we'll continue with these Zoom meetings every 4-6 weeks and that he'll pay more attention to the questions we pose at his Patreon page.

And--

Roger @279--

Thanks for your reply! I detailed the emerging Eurasian Bloc, noting it consists of almost half the world's population versus the NATO Bloc that's only 1/8th and has military superiority over NATO. He's of the opinion that the Neoliberalcons are drunk on their own version of reality that only exists in a mythical Ayn Rand World. We didn't discuss the Ukraine operation much at all, although it's clear he reads Lavrov and Putin's speeches. Russia proclaiming the EU is dead to Russians is music to the ears of Biden and company. But if the Outlaw US Empire wants to continue buying Russian hydrocarbons, then it must come up with rubles, and that won't sit well in DC. I mentioned that a few European nations are already resisting led by Hungary and Serbia, and I opined the Balkans might be where concerted resistance arises. Hudson illuminates a large portion of the elephant, but IMO some parts remain dark in his analysis. Seeing the whole picture is hard since half the planet's in the dark at all times.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 24 2022 15:50 utc | 53

Very interesting content in Zelensky’s speech to the Swedish Parliament.

“We are inviting Swedish architects to rebuild Ukraine. Sweden is the first country for which we are proposing such a project. You can help. We have common values. We are not just fighting for Ukraine, but for Europe as a whole.”

You gotta scroll aways down to get to that but it’s there.
https://pledgetimes.com/sweden-if-ukraine-did-not-defend-itself-everything-we-value-and-you-value-would-be-destroyed-zelenskyi-called-on-swedes-to-rebuild-ukraine/

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Mar 24 2022 15:50 utc | 54

Kim, Poles remember that it was the USSR that joined Hitler in invading Poland in 1939. Poles remember how Stalin called on them to rise up against the Nazi as the Red Army approached Warsaw, and then sat across the river for 72 days while the Nazi liquidated the city. Poles remember that Russia militarily occupied their country for 40 years after that-/so Poles do not have much affection for the Red Army.

Posted by: Wobblie | Mar 24 2022 15:50 utc | 55

@ Steve | Mar 24 2022 13:26 utc | 9

First of all, you have to consider your relations with people like family members that you don't want permanently to alienate, so silence is golden sometimes.

Second, as mentioned by c1ue | Mar 24 2022 14:03 utc | 23, "It is a waste of time arguing." This is particularly true with ignoramuses on social media who are immune to any kind of proof or expertise. Don't burn yourself up over such persons, because you only do harm to yourself thereby. Remember that great events are marching that are beyond the power of any of us as individuals to affect or alter much, and that includes beyond the power of the ignoramuses.

Third, you can raise side issues, as it was suggested above by Arne Hartmann | Mar 24 2022 14:19 utc | 26 to raise the issue of the self-inflicted harm the sanctions cause. Because that issue will hurt the people you are talking with directly, they are more likely to pay attention to it. The other big issue is the threat of atomic warfare and the absolute inability of the US ever to do anything about Russia's parity in nuclear weapons or anything to prevent massive destruction in case of an attack. The threat of nuclear war, even if it were deemed unlikely actually to occur, is nevertheless still there and is a real show stopper. One must also arm oneself with enough information to utterly crush any suggestion that victory of any sort is possible in a nuclear war, because there also are the stupids who will quibble about that.

Fourth, in the US at least, there is a substantial population now who disbelieve anything the government and MSM say. They may be a minority, but are nonetheless demographically significant. Because they are general right-wing nationalists, they do not concede that the government is either democratic, legitimate, or representative of true patriotism and are open to calling the ruling elite and their media traitors. Sometimes this factor can be worked in, and also it is important to wean these people away from the myths of US empire that they may have imbibed.

Fifth, if a person is sufficiently well-armed with information and is not faced by a hostile mob but is talking to an individual or a couple of persons, sometimes it is possible to really smash them. The opportunity for this does not often arise, but occasionally it might work. I remember in a public debate over Iraq in 1991 when I completely humiliated two stupids so that they slumped red-faced in their chairs.

Posted by: Cabe | Mar 24 2022 15:53 utc | 56

Kim, it is actually quite surprising that there were still any monuments to the Red Army to tear down—

Posted by: Wobblie | Mar 24 2022 15:54 utc | 57

India just isn't following into line when it comes to sanctioning Russia, and the US isn't happy about that.


"India’s largest oil and gas company, Indian Oil Corporation (IOC), bought three million barrels of Urals crude oil from Russia on Wednesday, the Deccan Herald newspaper reported citing trade sources.

According to the publication, the oil was purchased through European trader Vitol at an undisclosed discount.

This is the second time the Indian company has bought oil from Russia since Western sanctions were imposed on Moscow over the conflict in Ukraine. Despite repeated calls for India to join in isolating Russia."

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Mar 24 2022 15:58 utc | 58

As Germany the US and the UK flood Ukraine with weapons, they want to fight right down to the last Ukrainian, and then some, Turkey has said no to transfer its Russian-made S-400 air defense missile systems to Ukraine in exchange for Turkey receiving F-35 warplanes. Turkey wants the jets without preconditions.

The question is will Turkey transfer the air-defence system if it gets the jets?


"Fahrettin Altun, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s spokesman, has shot down the idea that Ankara should transfer its Russian-made S-400 air defense missile systems to Ukraine in exchange for Turkey receiving F-35 warplanes and Patriot missile batteries from the US. Kiev has been pleading for foreign aid to help it fight off the Russian military offensive.

“It is the responsibility of the West and especially the US to normalize relations with Turkey,” Altun wrote in a letter to the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) on Wednesday. He added that “what the West must do is deliver the F-35 fighter jets and Patriot batteries to Turkey without preconditions.”

The spokesman wrote that Washington’s removal of Turkey from the F-35 program in 2019 was “unlawful.” The US refused to deliver the promised planes after Ankara rejected its demand to scrap the purchase of S-400s."

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Mar 24 2022 16:03 utc | 59

Steve
The tendency of people to trust publicity starts at an early age. In grammar school we're disciplined to sit down and shut up, and you can't go to lunch until we have silence, and we'll tell you what to believe in because you're not capable of figuring it out yourself. The truth comes from textbooks, and the bible, and to straighten out your mind you need counseling from a professional, the same with investments, and so on. It's "education" in their terms, not according to the root of the word 'educar,' drawing out from you as a unique individual with talents you didn't even know you had. Its not education you get, no it's training. This is what you should believe, and then we'll test you for algebra and English because they simplify universal testing and also indicate to many people that they're imbeciles because they can't do, or want to do, algebra and they see no need to classify verbs, etc. They may be the most creative individuals in town, or athletic, or musical, or have some other talents valued by society but the 'education' system never goes there.
. . .You can't change all that.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 24 2022 16:04 utc | 60

@ Cabe | Mar 24 2022 4:30 utc | 301 // roger // tom_12

thanks for the history lesson on poland on the previous thread.. much appreciated...

Posted by: james | Mar 24 2022 16:06 utc | 61

Posted by: Joe | Mar 24 2022 15:22 utc | 43

Somebody just did write a short expose on Nuland (dual-citizen) and her neocon compatriots here:
https://www.compactmag.com/article/the-return-of-the-hawks

Posted by: WJ | Mar 24 2022 16:09 utc | 62

@ steve and others...

the wikipedia page on azov battalion is not a bad place to start.... let them read that and think about why mariupol is such a focus when it was also the focus back in 2014- 2015.. those are the nazies putin refers to..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Posted by: james | Mar 24 2022 16:12 utc | 63

Most NATO members in the Balkans are of very recent vintage, several having been admitted against the will of the people due to the politicos being bought. Bulgaria's fuming about having to pay for gas with rubles is due to its participation in the sanctions regime which is why it's on the Unfriendly Nations list, while Serbia and Hungary aren't. IMO, Russia ought to woo this underdeveloped, exploited region that has nothing to gain from NATO or EU membership and much to lose which ought to becoming very clear to leaders and public now. Both Hungary and Serbia can aid this endeavor as it's also to their interest. And there're other interest ties to be seriously considered, BRI benefits being the most important. Romania is also another nation that needs to be awakened to the folly of NATO and EU membership and shown that it has much more to gain from membership in EAEU/BRI/CSTO.

IMO, the Russians must see this possibility, but I've yet to dig and discover to what extent, although I do know that NATO is very sensitive about that region because it knows it's hold there is very tenuous.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 24 2022 16:12 utc | 64

@ Republicofscotland 57
India’s largest oil and gas company, Indian Oil Corporation (IOC), bought three million barrels of Urals crude oil
. . .also on India, from the link at #1 above, h/t to HMP

India, one of the major economies and the largest democracy in the world has already been trading with Russia under Rouble – Rupee exchange agreements for many decades. Indian banking and finance lawyers privately say that India’s finance ministry along with Reserve Bank of India (RBI) and Bank of Russia is “racing against time” in exploring options to “internationalise” Russian version of the SWIFT version – SPFS, starting with India as a launch base outside Russia (being helped by the fact that India has reservations in dealing with China’s CIPS – China’s version for SWIFT – though it is ready to accept expansion of China’s UnionPay card payment system subject to restrictions). . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 24 2022 16:13 utc | 65

from intel slava Z channel, https://t.me/intelslava/23389:

The Ukrainian leadership missed its chance for a sovereign state, - the official representative of the Russian Foreign Ministry Maria Zakharova

"They have already missed the main chance for the existence of Ukraine within their own borders, a sovereign Ukraine, an independent Ukraine," she said.

If you read between the diplomatic lines and Zakharova does not carry a gag, then this can be understood in such a way that a course has been taken for the annexation of Ukraine.

Posted by: Boo | Mar 24 2022 16:14 utc | 66

NATO will not deploy troops in Ukraine to avoid war with Russia - Alliance Secretary General Stoltenberg, responding to Poland's proposal to send a peacekeeping mission to Ukraine.

definitely don't take that to the bank... these vipers lie regularly..

Posted by: james | Mar 24 2022 16:15 utc | 67

@55 Cabe, re:

@ Steve | Mar 24 2022 13:26 utc | 9

First of all, you have to consider your relations with people like family members that you don't want permanently to alienate, so silence is golden sometimes.

Yes, I have a dinner party on Saturday and I am wondering how to deal with this. In a way I agree with you, but I am at least going to ask people where they get their information from. If they reply the BBC, Sky, The Guardian, etc., I will say that there is no point discussing the matter further. If they mention any of the alternative sources that we discuss here, I will continue the conversation and see where it goes, e.g. how do they explain the discrepancies in reporting. I am certainly not planning to convince them of anything, just raise minor doubts and then change topic.

Posted by: echelon | Mar 24 2022 16:23 utc | 68

@ karlof1 63
Bulgaria's fuming about having to pay for gas with rubles is due to its participation in the sanctions regime . .
. . .from Bloomberg:
For some buyers, the switch to rubles could be feasible.
“That’s no danger for the supply, we’ve checked, there’s a counterparty in Bulgaria that can realize the transaction in rubles,” state-owned distributor Bulgargaz EAD and a Gazprom client said. “We’re expecting all kinds of actions on the verge of the unusual but this scenario has been discussed, so there’s no risk for the payments under the existing contract.” . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 24 2022 16:23 utc | 69

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 24 2022 16:12 utc | 63

As a Bulgarian, now living abroad, I can share that the tops of the political, media and military pyramids have been systematically purged in the recent past. The journos are on Integrity initiative, 77 brigade, DW, Free Europe, NED payroll. Most of the politicians are spineless toadies. We currently got a Canadian "parachutist", as we call these marginally associated with Bulgaria politicians, as our prime minister. He recently rolled over for NATO when his Washington master wistled at him. Most of the ppl are indifferent, including sadly most of the younger generation. In my estimate, probably only about one third, mostly older and poorer ppl, still have some immunity left to the NATO propaganda.

Posted by: Boo | Mar 24 2022 16:24 utc | 70

On Rubles, from NakedCapitalism:
. . .Israel has/soon to have similar arrangements in place. Turkey, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Argentina, Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia, South Africa and many AU countries and of course China all have (or most already rushing to have) rouble + their respective currency exchange agreements in place . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 24 2022 16:27 utc | 71

Don Bacon (64).

Yeah, I read this today.

"Last week, the Business Standard reported that India plans to import about 15 million barrels of oil from Russia this year, taking advantage of Russia’s recent offer to sell its crude at up to a 25% discount, if the buyer is ready to cover the cost of insurance and transportation."

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Mar 24 2022 16:30 utc | 72

indian punchline from today... apologies if someone already posted this...

Biden wings his way to the borderlands of Ukraine

Posted by: james | Mar 24 2022 16:37 utc | 73

Posted by: Steve | Mar 24 2022 13:26 utc | 9

"How I do communicate with propagandized ppl?"

I agree with Arne. Focus on the great difficulties coming for the West if this war continues. I wrote a letter to all of my friends and family explaining Russia's outsized role in providing energy, food and fertilizer to the world. (For example, Russia produces over 60% of the world's ammonium nitrate, which is the world's primary nitrogen fertilizer, nitrogen being the primary fertilizer for all crops).

Then keep asking - what is the quickest and easiest way to resolve this conflict? Isn't it to simply acknowledge Russia's legitimate national security concerns? Ask them what the US would do if they were in Russia's shoes.

Sending arms to Ukraine will clearly not bring a quick resolution to this conflict.
Planting time for the majority of crops in the world is in the next few months. We need the quickest resolution.

Pass on my letter if you wish. https://cluelesshonky.blogspot.com/2022/03/one-big-backstory-behind-everything.html
Write your own.

Posted by: Clueless Honky | Mar 24 2022 16:39 utc | 74

According to Intel Slava Telegram channel:

Fighters of the Russian Armed Forces of the DPR liberated the administration building of Mariupol

RF troops are continuing the search to cleanse the city of any remaining AZOV members.

Posted by: Sushi | Mar 24 2022 16:43 utc | 75

I see the same psychological mechanism at work in the Ukraine war that was the basis for the Trump derangement syndrom after Trump won in 2016. Liberal Hillary supporters were disconnected from reality and instead of accepting reality they were trying to mold it according to their perception of it.

What will happen, when Russia wins the war against Ukraine and the propaganized Western audience dont get the promised economic downfall of Russia, but instead their own? The cognitive dissonance between reality and their perception is so big that I fear they would only be satisfied with an all out war against Russia. This mass psychosis was funny when it came to Trump, but its extremely dangerous when it comes to nuclear armed Russia.

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Mar 24 2022 16:47 utc | 76

Steve asked:

Hi Guys,
Can any of you offer any advice about how to persuade friends and family to look beyond the MSM bullshit?
I've tried suggesting sites and saying, "just so you can at least see the other side of the story", but they treat me like I'm the fool who is swallowing propaganda. Even people who have known me for years(I'm English, by the way) think I have been brainwashed because I contradict the BBC's false narrative. Any suggestions?

I would say that one important thing to point out is that, while acknowledging that the Russian invasion is illegal and is resulting in casualties and destruction as any war does, the invasion of Iraq by the US, UK, etc. was not only also illegal but far more destructive to lives and property. Maybe show them this article? https://www.newsweek.com/putins-bombers-could-devastate-ukraine-hes-holding-back-heres-why-1690494 And others from mainstream Western sources (which will typically have been written before the conflict started) that show the other side of the story.

Posted by: Jeff Melton | Mar 24 2022 16:47 utc | 77

All these other countries are dealing or will deal in rubles but Germany (largest buyer) is reeling . . .
Germany reeling as Putin tells Europe to pay for gas in rubles . .German Economy Minister Robert Habeck said Putin’s demand was a breach of contract and that Berlin will discuss with European partners “how we would react to that”.. .here
...from France on contract mods. . .
3° of article R. 212-1 and 6° of article R. 212-2 do not preclude the existence of clauses by which the contract, when concluded for an indefinite period, stipulates that the trader may unilaterally make changes related to the price of the goods to be delivered or the service to be provided on the condition that the consumer has been notified within a reasonable time to be able, if necessary, to terminate the contract. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 24 2022 16:53 utc | 78

Hi Guys,
Can any of you offer any advice about how to persuade friends and family to look beyond the MSM bullshit?
I've tried suggesting sites and saying, "just so you can at least see the other side of the story", but they treat me like I'm the fool who is swallowing propaganda. Even people who have known me for years(I'm English, by the way) think I have been brainwashed because I contradict the BBC's false narrative. Any suggestions?

Posted by: Steve | Mar 24 2022 13:26 utc | 9

You may limit yourself to speak about the weather, or go softly: never introduce more than 10% of "unknown-heretic" opinion at a time. So people could take it and from there you would be able to progress next time a lil bit further ...

Patience is of the essence. At some point contradictions in gov propaganda appear more and more you will get your "i told you so moment" ... hopefully.

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Mar 24 2022 16:58 utc | 79

Boo @69--

Thanks for your reply and telling us your former nationality! Looks like cracking the Balkans will be a difficult task. Your testimony conforms Hudson's assessment about EU politicos. Such people are clearly traitors to their nations, but national polities seem too inert to do the right thing and reclaim their nations. My conclusion during the Hudson talk was Europe collectively needs to employ the 1789 French solution, which he agreed seems to be their only escape pathway. Perhaps a year of poverty and privation will motivate enough people. I'm sure we'll find out.

Don Bacon @68 & 70--

Thanks for those reports. The big bugger will be the realization in Congress that Biden hasn't cut off Russian imports and thus rubles will need to be found. Or perhaps Congress will pass the bill it dropped, force Biden to sign it with vetoproof vote, and further paralyze the economy and inflame people's passions. I think the latter's most probable. I see fuel prices have mostly stabilized, but I don't expect that to last much longer. Brent's @120 today, WTI not far behind.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 24 2022 16:59 utc | 80

@Posted by: Wobblie | Mar 24 2022 15:50 utc | 54

Selective history is a wonderful way to feel comfortable in your ignorance and xenophobia. The USSR tried to make an agreement with the UK and France to stop Hitler, but they both wanted to destroy communism more than the Fascism many of them felt at home with (Churchill was quite an admirer of Mussolini). Poland (a landowning and military autocracy) was also open to a deal with Germany to jointly attack the USSR and to get rid of its Jewish population (Poland was extremely anti-Semitic), but it was too arrogant to come to a deal - Poland wouldn't give up on its claim to Gdansk. So the USSR had a simple problem, how to delay a war with Germany and to keep the German/Polish border as far away from Moscow as possible. That's why it agreed to the partition of Poland.

The Soviet army was exhausted after a long campaign and faced significant German resistance outside Warsaw. It was the Polish government in exile, the old landowning and military autocracy which was virulently anti-Soviet that triggered the uprising in an attempt to install itself ahead of the Russian advance.

The vast majority of Poles were better off under Soviet rule than under the pre-war landowner and military autocrats. Working class people were given many times better opportunities, education and healthcare than previously. The Polish elites want to keep telling a fairy tale as they profit from being Western vassals. The USSR liberated Poland from the Nazis, and put an end to the Holocaust, no matter how much Polish xenophobes want to forget that inconvenient history.

Posted by: Roger | Mar 24 2022 17:03 utc | 81

In terms of a coordinated propaganda campaign, the reporting of this conflict is the international equivalent of the UK's anti-Corbyn smear campaign. It's dispiriting to see how the western media and politicians all fall into line to promote a narrative which is, at best, deeply distorted.
If they can get the whole western world to treat Zelensky, who ordered his country to vote against a UN resolution condemning the glorification of Nazism, as some kind of hero, what else can they get the majority of people to believe? Worrying times we're living in.

Posted by: D J G | Mar 24 2022 17:05 utc | 82

Don Bacon @77--

That's a huge hoot!!!! Germany complaining about contracts when it illegally sanctions!!!!! Meanwhile its industries shutdown for lack of affordable energy supply, and in some cases, material shortages. Instead of crying a river, Germans ought to stand up for themselves.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 24 2022 17:07 utc | 83

@Don Bacon #77
The German minister is an idiot.
The existing Gazprom contracts are the Germany's advantage because they stipulate natural gas delivery prices far below what spot prices are now.
If he really wants to get breach of contract, Germany will get breach - right up the ass in natural gas price.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 24 2022 17:10 utc | 84

RT links are being blocked. It reports that Goldman Sachs thinks the Outlaw US Empire isn't currently in a recession:

"The United States will probably enter a recession if oil prices continue to soar and surpass $200 a barrel, Goldman Sachs chief economist Jan Hatzius said on Thursday.

“'We estimate that it would take a sustained oil price increase to $200 per barrel to produce an income shock similar in magnitude to those that precipitated the 1974 and 1979 recessions – and this would significantly increase the 2022 recession odds,' Hatzius said in a note seen by Yahoo Finance."

Neoliberal Parasites have no clue what's happening in the real world as they continue to believe the false reality constructed around massively manipulated financial data saying GDP continues to grow while it shrinks instead. They'll continue to be blind as long as the Fed continues to inflate asset prices, which won't last much longer. $200 oil will come fast as the dollar's purchasing power rapidly erodes, while oil priced in other currencies remains stable.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 24 2022 17:18 utc | 85

@Roger | Mar 24 2022 17:03 utc | 80

Yes, the USSR liberated Poland from the Nazis, but then they kept the country under military occupation for more than 40 years. I imagine Poles didn't feel all that "liberated" and maybe that is why they hate Russians.

Posted by: WhyCantWeJusGetAlong | Mar 24 2022 17:20 utc | 86

Joe 43; The US WOT and Afghanistan, Iran are very much about Russia; N. Korea is about Russia and China; we LOVE N Korea; it's the pimple that justifies our special help. We've been at war with Russia since WW2 when we were also allied with them.

Posted by: ScottinDallas | Mar 24 2022 17:25 utc | 87

Roger @80--

Yesterday, Martyanov linked to a study in Russian you might be interested in, Russia and USSR In The 20th Century Wars, that I can only access via the link he provides. Other barflies interested in an exhaustive statistical analysis of Russia's casualties during the 20th Century will find this source a trove.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 24 2022 17:26 utc | 88

Roger, thankyou for that lesson in Soviet propaganda—now explain Stalin’s seizure of eastern Poland, Latvia, Lithuanian and Estonia and his invasion of Finland. You call it WWII- in appropriate historical context it was the war of the fourth Polish Partition. The best case for Ukrainians is they get treated no worse than the Poles.

Posted by: Wobblie | Mar 24 2022 17:27 utc | 89

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 24 2022 17:10 utc | 83

And this the problem for Habeck right now. If Habeck doesnt accept paying in rubles, he has to somehow organize LNG replacements (they are not available in the needed quantity). US, Qatar, all suppliers, will ask for current spot prices. Spot prices are through the roof, which means that Habeck kills the German industry and the German consumers, if he concludes contracts right now out of necessity. Around 50% of homes in Germany rely on natural gas for heating (oil is second with around 25%). Every new home owner buys expensive natural gas heatings to save money. Ironically, many German families rely on cheap Russian natural gas to be able to pay their loans.

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Mar 24 2022 17:27 utc | 90

WhyCantWeJusGetAlong @85--

Then why do Germans seem so happy to be subjugated and occupied by the Outlaw US Empire since 1945?

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 24 2022 17:28 utc | 91

Battle of Mariupol is over. Azov does not exist. Mariupol becomes part of DPR.

See intel Slava.

Posted by: Oldhippie | Mar 24 2022 17:29 utc | 92

@karlof1 | Mar 24 2022 17:28 utc | 90,

Maybe also add Japan and SK?!

Posted by: LuRenJia | Mar 24 2022 17:33 utc | 93

It appears Wobblie @88 thinks Putin and Putin's Russia is as bad as Stalin and Stalin's USSR. The Baltics were reoccupied by the USSR because they were allying with Germany against the USSR. The War against Finland was also a preemptive aimed at preventing Finland's allying with Hitler; and although the USSR lost tactically, it obtained its strategic goal. From what you've exposed as your POV, you clearly favor Hitler and Naziism, so you probably support the Outlaw US Empire's attempt to control the world.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 24 2022 17:35 utc | 94

NYTimes
Germany’s leader says a boycott of Russian energy would imperil ‘hundreds of thousands of jobs.’ Germany, Europe’s largest economy, has been the most prominent opponent of a boycott of Russian energy. It relies on Russia for about 55 percent of its natural gas, 35 percent of its oil and half its coal.

YahooFinance
Germany will keep up efforts to diversify its energy sources and never again make itself dependent on one energy supplier but it is not ready to impose an energy embargo on Russia, German Economy Minister Robert Habeck said on Thursday.
The country is trying to quickly free itself from its dependence on Russian fossil fuels, Habeck told a news conference, adding it was not only a question of moving away from fossil fuels.
"We are fighting an infrastructure that made the dependence even worse," he said, pointing to Gazprom owning Germany's largest storage facility, Rosneft owning a large oil refinery in the east of the country and the construction of Nord Stream 2.

Reuters
Russia's demand, which still needs to be backed by a concrete mechanism, presents European customers with a dilemma: don't pay in roubles and risk getting no gas or comply and risk higher prices as contracts get renegotiated and more favourable long-term deals are jettisoned. Asked whether the United States would allow European nations that cannot manage without Russian gas to process payment in roubles without finding themselves in a breach of sanctions, a White House official said Washington was consulting with its allies... .more here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 24 2022 17:38 utc | 95

LuRenJia @92--

Nice to see your comment! SK exercises far more independence than all the nations occupied by the Outlaw US Empire combined. Japan as I wrote yesterday is hopeless and will suffer further. SK as you may know isn't on the Unfriendly Nations list and continues to trade with Russia even after the change in government. IMO, SK has about as much love for the Empire as Okinawans and would like them to disappear.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 24 2022 17:40 utc | 96

In Germany religion wasn't discouraged (and in Bavaria close to state-mandated: Bavaria successfully flouted court rulings to remove crucifixes from classrooms), nor was "private enterprise." Both were discouraged in the Polish People's Republic. Poles are notoriously Catholic, and as for free enterprise, I remember all the Poles lined up in West Berlin and Vienna to board the buses back home, shopping bags stuffed with goodies from Aldi/Hofer and sometimes even Julius Meinl for resale.

Posted by: malenkov | Mar 24 2022 17:41 utc | 97

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Mar 24 2022 17:27 utc | 89

The astounding thing is that it was widely understood and openly said only a few weeks ago that Germany could not divorce itself from Russian oil and gas. The question is whether its decision makers just forgot about this in the meantime, or are desperately betting that Russia will crack any day now and return to providing energy at whatever terms the EU sets. (Notice how both France, Germany and Italy have come out and said that they will "keep paying in euros", as if they were in any position to dictate this.) But they will not be able to explain a collapse of German industry and the bankrupcies (or freezing to death) of German households and the very continued existence of the German state will be in question.

Even Habeck himself said as recently as about a week ago that a boycott of Russian energy "would threaten ("gefährden") the social peace in Germany". That is exactly what Germany is going to get, very soon. I have to admit that despite the hardship this will inflict on ordinary Germans (who, it should be remember however, by a wide margin support the West's war on Russia, including even stronger measures than already taken), it is amusing to witness Germany and the rest of Europe committing suicide through sheer arrogance and rage. Going down with their beloved USA/UK/Israel is exactly the fate Europe deserves.

Posted by: Unnamed | Mar 24 2022 17:42 utc | 98

Posted by: Oldhippie | Mar 24 2022 17:29 utc | 91

South front is still showing a part of the town occupied and Azovstal still under control of Ukrainian military. Apparently they are counting hours.

Posted by: Milos | Mar 24 2022 17:43 utc | 99

my previous comment @ karlof1 | Mar 24 2022 17:28 utc | 90

Posted by: malenkov | Mar 24 2022 17:43 utc | 100

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