Ukraine Open Thread 2022-30
Only news & views related to the Ukraine conflict ...
Posted by b on March 18, 2022 at 16:17 UTC | Permalink
next page »from rt.com
"We do hear statements that are in fact personal insults to President Putin. These statements are actually coming from the president of the United States of America on a daily basis,” Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said in response to a journalist’s question on Friday.
“Considering such irritability from Mr. Biden, his fatigue, sometimes forgetfulness, which leads to aggressive statements, we will not give sharp assessments so as not to cause more aggression,” he concluded. Peskov added that being a thoughtful and wise leader, Vladimir Putin never responds to personal insults."
Okay that itself is a really classy way to say that Biden is frail, old senile man. ha ha. that's really good insult.
Posted by: Calgary Guy | Mar 18 2022 16:20 utc | 2
i have found this link somewhat informative..
@ 1 kitaySupporter | Mar 18 2022 16:19 utc | 1 - this was posted a few days ago from helmer via the poster bevin... thanks though..
@ Calgary Guy | Mar 18 2022 16:20 utc | 2
debsisdead - the poster - left a good post on this very topic in his own artistic way... i repost it here for you and others -
"The thing which really gets me about the amerikan empire is how much like an abusive partner it behaves.
Lies, gas-lighting, psychological bullying, financial domination, this behaviour is exactly what amerika does every minute of every day that it isn't smarmily asserting that it is the nicest but most misunderstood bloke who ever walked the earth. In other words classic wife bashing behaviour.It doesn't require imagination to see what comes next, final press release outta DC - "Now see what that Slavic slut has made me do", right as Biden reaches for the nuclear trigger."
Posted by: james | Mar 18 2022 16:25 utc | 3
Former senior advisor the Secretary of Defense Col. Doug Macgregor speaks of the Russia-Ukraine war: https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2022/03/15/former-top-pentagon-advisor-col-doug-macgregor-on-russia-ukraine-war/
Posted by: Mikkael | Mar 18 2022 16:28 utc | 4
Do you think US will change its secretive modus operandi to work with China to bring peace to Ukraine? FYI, it was Russia who published its two pre-agreements to counter the "Empire of Lies".
Ukraine war: Xi Jinping calls for cooperation with Washington on ending conflict
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3171058/china-us-relations-xi-calls-cooperation-washington-ending?module=lead_hero_story&pgtype=homepage
Hua Chunying 华春莹
@SpokespersonCHN
China government official
The claim that #China is on the wrong side of history is overbearing. It is the #US that is on the wrong side of history.
7:51 PM · Mar 17, 2022·Twitter Web App
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Mar 18 2022 16:28 utc | 5
19 MAR, 03:57
A number of states would never accept "global village" of American sheriff — Lavrov
According to the Russian foreign minister, statements from Western countries that Russia allegedly suffered a defeat in the General Assembly because the majority of countries voted against its actions in Ukraine are misleading
MOSCOW, March 18. /TASS/. A number of countries, including China, India, Brazil, Mexico, would never accept living in the so-called "global village" of the United States, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said in an interview with RT on Friday.
"There are players who would never accept the global village of the American sheriff. China, India, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico - I am sure, these countries do not want to be just in a position when Uncle Same orders them something and they say: "Yes, sir," Lavrov said.
"Of course, Russia is not in the category of the countries that would be ready to do so," he added.
According to the Russian top diplomat, statements from Western countries that Russia allegedly suffered a defeat in the General Assembly because the majority of countries voted against its actions in Ukraine are misleading.
"If you take the population represented by the countries that were not voting against Russia and especially if you take the number of countries that introduced sanctions against Russia - majority of those who voted against us did so under huge pressure and blackmail, including (I know this for sure) threats to individual delegates regarding their assets in the U.S., bank accounts, children studying in universities and so on," Lavrov said.
"It is absolutely unprecedented blackmail and pressure without any scruples," he concluded.
Posted by: Kim | Mar 18 2022 16:33 utc | 6
As the US puts pressure on India to sanction Russia, India appears not to be listening.
"India’s state-run refiner, Hindustan Petroleum Corporation (HPCL), has bought two million barrels of Russian oil for loading in May, as the country’s refiners step up efforts to secure crude from Moscow at a discount, regional media reported on Thursday.
The crude was sold by European trader Vitol and is the second such deal, as Indian Oil Corporation (IOC) purchased three million barrels of the Russian Urals crude earlier this week at a discount of $20-$25 a barrel for delivery in May."
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Mar 18 2022 16:36 utc | 7
For the FT a Ukrainian soldier is an Azov soldier (see the photo for the war feed on the front page). I hope it is just stupidity of their editorial stuff. For those with subscription here's the direct link FT: Ukraine War Latest
Posted by: AmigoS | Mar 18 2022 16:38 utc | 8
Big Boys' Lobbying failed:
March 2, 2022
Exclusive: U.S. utilities push White House not to sanction Russian uranium
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/exclusive-us-utilities-push-white-house-not-sanction-russian-uranium-2022-03-02/
March 17,2022
US GOP Senators Introduce Bill to Ban Uranium Imports From Russia
https://sputniknews.com/20220318/us-gop-senators-introduce-bill-to-ban-uranium-imports-from-russia-1093981834.html
3,2,1 Higher prices ahead.. Who cares when politicos have sweet deals.
= = = = =
The West (US and Allies) replay 1930s, "Lest we forget." that certain "ethnic peoples were showered and the Japanese were rounded up and placed in camps.
So, if you have a Russian cat - because they have been sanctioned - or a Russian sounding name and are innocent. What then?
U.S. Treasury Will Pay Tipsters Who Help Lead to Seizure of Russian Assets
https://www.newsweek.com/us-treasury-will-pay-tipsters-who-help-lead-seizure-russian-assets-1688796
As part of an international task force officially announced by several countries Wednesday, the U.S. Treasury said it will establish a rewards program for people who provide information that leads to "seizure, restraint, or forfeiture of assets linked to foreign government corruption, including the Government of the Russian Federation."The announcement of the rewards program came as part of the introduction of the Russian Elites, Proxies and Oligarchs (REPO) Task Force, which comes as part of the sanctions levied against Russian businesses and individuals for its invasion of Ukraine.[.]
All these actions serve to further divide the 13% vs the 87% for decades. Sanctions in place, hard to climb off that horse. Ask Cuba, Venezuela and Iran.
We observe the new financial world order in real time.
Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 18 2022 16:38 utc | 9
That's it RT has has its licence removed completely in the UK by OFCOM a regulatory body in the UK that deals with broadcasting, OFCOM has been totally captured by the English government and is now just an extension of what the government thinks.
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Mar 18 2022 16:40 utc | 10
Former top Pentagon advisor Col. Doug Macgregor on Russia-Ukraine war
Take a listen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFngc_8RiVc
Posted by: Hannibal | Mar 18 2022 16:41 utc | 11
For the FT a Ukrainian soldier is an Azov soldier (see the photo for the war feed on the front page). I hope it is just stupidity of their editorial stuff. For those with subscription here's the direct link FT: Ukraine War Latest
Financial Times, a Japanese company, changed its Chief Editor in January, 2020. Ever since, FT has been going downhill. Nowadays, it is a propaganda outlet, overbearing, trying hard to push their opinions, instead of reporting solid news, preferable financial news. Not much financial news anymore. Very sad for a thirty years plus reader.
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Mar 18 2022 16:48 utc | 12
In regard to the rabid response of the West (sponsored by the USA and Friends) there is no way the Russian Federation did not wargame this scenario, specifically the massive economic schism. One could be forgiven for assuming that they simply decided that now is the time to go all in, and avoid the death by 1000 cuts clearly in progress. Another perspective has the Ukraine sponsored scarcity and disruption dovetailing into the Covid narrative and sabotage of same….To be fair Breton Woods has long past its shelf life and it’s clear that various financial and .gov institutions have been postponing the crash.
Posted by: Chevrus | Mar 18 2022 16:52 utc | 13
Europe will be like a Mad Max movie in six months time.
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-03-18/south-europe-fears-livestock-culls-as-ukraine-conflict-prompts-feed-shortage
South Europe Fears Livestock Culls as Ukraine Conflict Prompts Feed ShortageCarlo Vittorio Ferrari, who runs a farm holding 2,000 pigs with his brother near the town of Cremona in northern Italy, fears his fourth generation family business could be lost due to conflict in Ukraine.
The country is a major global supplier of animal feed, stocks of which are falling fast across import-reliant southern Europe.
With Hungary, Serbia and Moldova also banning exports as they safeguard their own supplies, costs for farms like Ferrari's have spiked, threatening their future. Many face culling animals if the situation doesn't improve quickly.
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/high-energy-costs-trigger-unrest-parts-europe-83528123
High energy costs are stoking unrest in parts of Europe, with Spain deploying more than 23,000 police officers amid a truckers’ strike Friday and farmers in France and Greece snarling traffic with their protests.Russia’s war in Ukraine has further pushed up costs for oil and natural gas in Europe, driving record inflation and making it ever more expensive for farmers and truckers to fuel their equipment and vehicles, afford fertilizer or keep up with other costs. In Europe, which is dependent on Russian oil and natural gas, the war worsened an energy supply crunch that has driven up costs for households and businesses for months.
A group of mostly self-employed Spanish truckers walked off the job days ago over high fuel prices and other grievances, and it's devolved into attacks as most drivers continue working. Police in patrol cars and helicopters escorted convoys of trucks along highways and held back picketers Friday, seeking to ensure products like dairy and cement keep moving as some sectors reported supply problems on the fifth day of the strike.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 18 2022 17:01 utc | 14
Putin's speech today on 8th Anniversary of Crimea's reunification with Russia.
Posted by: Circe | Mar 18 2022 17:03 utc | 15
https://www.chinatimes.com/realtimenews/20220318005163-260409?ctrack=pc_main_headl_p01&chdtv
"習近平指出，中方已經提出了關於烏克蘭人道主義局勢的六點倡議，願向烏克蘭和受影響的其他國家進一步提供人道主義援助。各方應該共同支持俄烏對話談判，談出結果、談出和平。美國和北約也應該同俄羅斯開展對話，解開烏克蘭危機的背後癥結，化解俄烏雙方的安全憂慮。"
Summary: China is providing and will provide more humanitarian assistance to Ukraine and other affected countries. US and NATO should start to talk with Russia, to resolve the root causes of the Ukraine Crises, and Ukraine and Russia safety concerns.
拜登重申：美國不尋求同中國打「新冷戰」，不尋求改變中國體制，不尋求通過強化同盟關係反對中國，不支持「台獨」，無意和中國發生衝突。美方願和中方坦誠對話，加強合作，堅持一個中國政策，有效管控好競爭和分歧，推動美中關係穩定發展。
Summary: Biden stressed that US is not seeking a new Cold War, not to change Chinese political system, not to strengthen alliances against China, not to support Taiwan Independence, not wanting to have conflicts with China. Would like .....to have manageable competition and dissension.
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Mar 18 2022 17:07 utc | 16
Peter AU1 @14--
Here inside the Empire, eggs that were once quite inexpensive consistently over that last 5+ years at about $1/doz have zoomed up in price due to a huge outbreak of avian flu that recently destroyed @5-10 million birds. Eggs and chicken meat are the cheapest form of protein available to the poor masses who will now pay 50-100% more, which will be followed by a sharp rise in the cost of chicken meat. And that's just one item out of many.
GoogleTranslate of news on Russian RT:
Russia and Ukraine at the talks brought their positions closer on such points as the neutral status of Ukraine and its non-entry into NATO, said the head of the Russian delegation, assistant to the President of Russia Vladimir Medinsky. At the same time, according to him, in the issue of demilitarization of Ukraine, Moscow and Kyiv are "somewhere halfway." He also added that it would be possible to talk about a possible meeting between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Vladimir Zelensky only after the approval of the text of the agreement between the two countries.
Posted by: JB | Mar 18 2022 17:23 utc | 19
It seems to be easy to mock the awkward language of the Russian efforts to rid Ukraine of the gangsters hired and supported by oligarchs and western forces. Reports made by Western media and comments from exert shills and hacks are familiar and trusted and accepted unthinkingly as true - no matter how many lies and broken promises have been voiced in the past. Smooth operators write the scripts that the pretty women and men read so often that the tales become bedtime stories.Compared to these manikins even politicians sound tongue-twisted and befuddled - never mind the likes of you and me. The Russians? So direct. SoNotCool.
Posted by: ThreeFeathers | Mar 18 2022 17:27 utc | 20
@karlof1 #18
The price of chicken and eggs has been elevated for at least 6 months.
Prior to this period, I would regularly see boneless, skinless chicken breast for $1.99/lb.
Now, I see supermarket ads for chicken leg meat for $1.59/lb - which before would sell for $0.69/lb. Chicken breast has not gone on sale at all for at least 6 months.
I am, however, still seeing ground beef for $1.99
At the beginning of COVID, a butcher told me that the ground beef he had put out was from much fancier cuts, ground up because of lack of demand. I wonder if that is still the case...
I also wonder what happens if fertilizer prices cause feed prices to skyrocket - which in turn likely means culling of US herds.
A short term price drop followed by a medium term sticky high price...
Posted by: c1ue | Mar 18 2022 17:28 utc | 21
Zelensky’s schlubby bunker prez in tracksuit public image is too ridiculous. So many people fall for this crap and swoon over how brave he is and how much he cares for his people, yet two weeks ago they could barely find Ukraine on a map and had no idea their new hero Zelensky even existed. Drives me nuts.
But not everyone is completely brainwashed. At a medical appointment this morning I chatted with the nurse about the Ukraine war and she started repeating the standard Putin is a madman stuff but when I gently brought up the 2003 Iraq invasion as a counterpoint and the analogy of a US reaction to hypothetical Chinese missile bases in Canada and Mexico, she was surprisingly receptive and turned out to be far more knowledgeable about what is going on than I expected.
Seems at least some people who have heterodox views on this war keep their opinions to themselves and mouth the usual cliche platitudes as cover until they are sure that speaking freely won’t jeopardize their livelihood and social status.
Posted by: Left Coast Canuck | Mar 18 2022 17:31 utc | 22
KitaySupporter @16--
Global Times has a different line, "China-Russia relations the most important strategic asset that cannot be damaged by US provocation":
"The close relationship between China and Russia has been a thorn in the US' side, especially against the backdrop of the ongoing Ukraine crisis. With the simmering of the situation, it couldn't be any clearer that Washington is eager to exploit the Russia-Ukraine conflict to drive a wedge between Beijing and Moscow.
"For one thing, senior White House officials have on multiple occasions accused China of not exerting enough pressure on Russia to stop the country's military action in Ukraine. US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said on Thursday before US President Joe Biden's virtual meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping that Washington will 'impose costs' for any support Beijing provides to Russia's actions against Ukraine. He urged Beijing to assume 'responsibility to use its influence and defend the international rules and principles that it professes to support.' For another, an increasing number of Western media reports and analyses have emerged to hype how China's ties with Russia have made China 'uncomfortable' and 'awkward' and warn that Beijing risks isolation if it doesn't distance itself from Moscow.
"NATO's eastward expansion is the root cause of Russia's anger and military operation in Ukraine. It's the US that should put out the fire it lit in Ukraine. Ridiculously, it is demanding Beijing to do this job at the cost of damaging China-Russia relations. This is unreasonable and insidious. By pushing China to denounce Russia and asking China to bear the responsibility for the fatal strategic mistake the US and NATO made in the construction of so-called European security, Washington has no intention of hiding its desire to sow discord between China and Russia.
"US State Department spokesperson Ned Price said on Monday that China could use its unique relationship to bring an end to Russia's actions against Ukraine. What nonsense. Russia is an independent major power and China has no ability to exert influence on Russia's decision on the Ukraine issue which it deems as a 'life-and-death' matter.
"If China really pressures Russia in a way that is inconsistent with the China-Russia comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination, it will only undermine the China-Russia relationship and sabotage mutual trust, which will be a huge strategic loss to both sides. This is what the US is eager and happy to see.
"Washington knows that China cannot influence Russia or force it to do anything. But it has regarded the Ukraine crisis as a good chance to tear the two countries apart. The more discord Washington could sow between China and Russia, the more it will be in line with US interests. But how can Beijing and Moscow allow such an evil trick to succeed?" [My Emphasis]
Picture Uncle Sam the bully pushing at a massive wall representing the China/Russia Partnership only to rebound from it as the wall moves forward; the bully tries to push again but is again repulsed and pushed further back. As this continues, we see an abyss enter the picture located some distance to the bully's rear that it doesn't see since it doesn't look. The Bully continues to push and retreat further to the point where we see what awaits the Bully if it continues to double-down.
The above is the best analogy I have to explain what's currently happening. Someone with CGI expertise could easily make it into a short comic that the world will appreciate.
Over at the New York Times
Yesterday, as another commenter pointed out on the last thread, it was In Some Parts of the World, the War in Ukraine Seems Justified. Today it is Why Vladimir Putin Invokes Nazis to Justify His Invasion of Ukraine. Both unfortunately behind the pay wall.
The second article does reference Statement on Ukraine by scholars of genocide, Nazism and WWII by JNS (Jewish News Syndicate), which is not behind a wall.
I found it interesting on all accounts. The second NYT article only mentions Azov once, and places them within the context of, well, freedom fighters it would seem. The JNS article has an impressive list of scholars who have attested to its contents, though I don't know much about any of them.
As I work through all this I continue to think this was a major foreign policy misstep by Russia. Again, I thought they would clean out the Donbas quietly, not go after the whole country. Still have not seen enough to reverse position on that. Looks like the Azov Battalion may only be partially wiped out at best, and that far-right reactionaries in Ukraine will be able to regroup and continue their mischief outside the country, all the while being portrayed as Ukrainian patriots. I can't see that as a positive in any way, but I'll keep digging.
In the mean time do any of the luminaries here have insight yet into how Russia might be able to off-ramp from this? I'm assuming they will want to, but I'm really fuzzy on what criteria must be met before withdrawal occurs. "Demilitarization" and "Denazification" seem overly broad goals, ones which might suggest a sustained presence needed, something which Russia has said it wishes to avoid. At least for now.
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 17:47 utc | 25
Posted by: Left Coast Canuck | Mar 18 2022 17:31 utc | 22
Interesting experience. I think many ppl keep their politics and knowledge to themselves to not antagonize family or workplace. Once you are in a "fringe" spot, life becomes difficult. Many ppl in the West see the hypocrisy: Western outcry against the invasion of Ukraine while "we" wage wars for commodities to secure our lifestyle at the expense of everybody else. These ballanced voices keep their heads down right now while the propaganda onslaught is putting pressure in the boiler.
Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Mar 18 2022 17:51 utc | 26
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 17:47 utc | 25
Time to add a new word to your vocabulary. Westplaining.
Example: Russia's off-ramp in Ukraine cannot be westplained.
Posted by: too scents | Mar 18 2022 17:52 utc | 27
Posted by: too scents | Mar 18 2022 17:52 utc | 27
Well I'm certainly open to "Eastsplaining" or whatever the opposite of "Westsplaining" may be ;)
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 17:56 utc | 28
Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 17:47 utc | 25
Russia has no interest in an 'off ramp'. US took control of Ukraine in 2014 and turned it into a attack dog specifically to attack Russia. Russia have now take control and will re pacify the place.
The US west have now sanctioned themselves into oblivion. Protests that are ow kicking off all over Europe with farmers and trucker will spread and grow as more and more feel the pinch of the own goal sanctions. Same will start occurring sooner or later in the US as sanctions start to bite there as with the rest of the vassals that are siding with the US against Russia and China.
If the west is to salvage anything rather going for a soviet style collapse, the it is the west that will have to find and off ramp.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 18 2022 18:03 utc | 29
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 17:47 utc | 25
There is no "off ramp" prepared for Russia, rather the opposite. Western military aid and promises encourage Ze to keep fighting. If the US wanted, it could have told Ze: "You are on your own, strike a deal with Putin, you wont get any military help from us." This would have given Ze the incentives to seek a negotiated peace. In short: If you give money for war, you want war.
Russia has communicated: 1. Neutrality, 2. Demilitarization, 3. Recognition of Crimea as Russian, 4. Recognition of Donbass as independent. "Denazification" is quite a broad term. Nobody has really explained what that means. It could range from recognition of Russian language and customs in Ukraine to prohibiting Bandera's all-Ukrainian nationalism in public life to all out Russian domination of Ukrainian politics.
Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Mar 18 2022 18:04 utc | 30
I read a piece from a private sector consultancy which suggested that the US (Jake) had a very bad meeting with China. Very negative, and one where it looked like the Chinese might well offer material support to the Russians.
Posted by: Simcha | Mar 18 2022 18:04 utc | 31
Intanto sugli scaffali dei magazzini alimentari italiani e francesi diventa introvabile l'olio di semi di 🌻 girasole
Posted by: Alessandro Cagliostr | Mar 18 2022 18:09 utc | 32
It seems to be easy to mock the awkward language of the Russian efforts to rid Ukraine of the gangsters hired and supported by oligarchs and western forces. [...]
The Russians? So direct. SoNotCool.
Posted by: ThreeFeathers | Mar 18 2022 17:27 utc | 20
What's awkward in it?
Denazification and demilitarization.
Anybody who wanted to has known about Banderist scum for 8 years. It was also evident that NATO, americans and canadians were all over it. If you dig a bit, you realize that NATO and FUCKING NAZI remnants have always gone hand in hand.
Current russian leadership is articulate, acknowledges historical context, and behaves in a reasonable and respectful manner.
The same cannot be said of their western counterparts. It is western values which are in question here, not russian.
Posted by: Misotheist | Mar 18 2022 18:13 utc | 33
Peter AU1 | Mar 18 2022 18:03 utc | 29 and Arne Hartmann | Mar 18 2022 18:04 utc | 30
Okay, those were helpful. So the thought then is Russia will maintain its presence in the Ukraine going forward? I don't know how they could obtain their goals without it (per Arne's list). Since maintaining a force sufficient to control the battle space implies taking full political control, is this essentially then a reemergence of the Ukraine SSR? Or is the thought the west will cave and Ukraine be left to fend for itself (per Peter's post)?
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 18:13 utc | 34
Greek farmers.
https://www.oann.com/greek-farmers-on-tractors-protest-unbearable-fuel-fertilizer-costs/
Hundreds of Greek farmers, some on tractors, protested in Athens on Friday, demanding more tax cuts and subsidies to combat high fuel and fertilizer prices which have soared since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.Farmers say the measures do not go far enough and everything has become too expensive, from fuel to animal feed.
“Our survival is really at stake this year,” said one protester, Giorgos Laoutis. “With the cost of production, electricity, agricultural supplies, fuel.”
Farmers from across Greece joined the rally. Some protesters hung black flags on shepherd’s crooks or sticks.
“The situation has become unbearable,” said another farmer, Diamanto Kritikou.
“We can’t work our fields, we can’t cultivate, we can’t put gas in our vehicles, and (we can’t buy) seeds, fertilizers… there will be a problem with food supply in the country,” she said.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 18 2022 18:14 utc | 35
TH@28
As has been repeatedly stated - and just again by Sergey Lavrov, this is not about Ukraine. This is about everything that is wrong with US-Russian relations over the past 30 years. It is a grand reset and such endeavors come with costs, in this case ones that Russia has been preparing for since 2010. For Russia to wait longer would have been a mistake, for it to move earlier also a mistake. The costs have been anticipated as well as possible and will be borne as an investment for a better future.
Posted by: the pessimist | Mar 18 2022 18:14 utc | 36
"I found it interesting on all accounts. The second NYT article only mentions Azov once, and places them within the context of, well, freedom fighters it would seem. The JNS article has an impressive list of scholars who have attested to its contents, though I don't know much about any of them." - Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 17:47 utc | 25
You are so lucky: you find only exactly what you are looking to find. Especially true with respect to the JNS article with "the impressive list of scholars."
Posted by: spudski | Mar 18 2022 18:18 utc | 37
I rather think the 'de-nazification' slogan is for domestic consumption as the defeat of Nazism to the tune of nearly 30 million dead still blazes in the heart of Russia. So yes, the political goal of the term is much harder to define than the rhetorical power it brings to the 'russian people.' imo.
Posted by: gottlieb | Mar 18 2022 18:18 utc | 38
Posted by: Alessandro Cagliostr | Mar 18 2022 18:09 utc | 32
Here it's already increased more than 50%.
Supermarket brands put notices of "only X item per client", which are illegal.
Posted by: Misotheist | Mar 18 2022 18:19 utc | 39
Posted by: the pessimist | Mar 18 2022 18:14 utc | 36
Well pessimist some of us coming late to the game have not seen all of the things repeatedly stated. There is a lot of information on this site, and it is not easy to find. So you are stating this is really about Russia throwing off the western yoke I take it? I did get a bit of that vibe as I plied through literally thousands of comments, but I did not find one which called that out as a specific strategic goal of the operation.
But I do need to go read up on Lavrov's statements. Which I will do.
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 18:20 utc | 40
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 18:13 utc | 34
Your thinking is flawed and borderline trolling, at least it doesnt take into account what neutrality means in this context. While I dont know what Russia means by "denazification", creating a Ukrainian SSR dominated by Russia runs counter to the demand of neutrality, because Russia wouldnt need neutrality, if it actually ran an Ukrainian SSR.
Do you, by chance, use straw man arguments, that you create a silly argument in order for you to easily counter it? Using a term like "Ukrainian SSR" is just nonsense.
Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Mar 18 2022 18:21 utc | 41
Posted by: spudski | Mar 18 2022 18:18 utc | 37
Actually I'm looking into all sorts of sources at this point. There has been discussion of folks using various VPNs to get to material otherwise difficult to access. I'm using machine translations for some of the Russian and Chinese sources I run across, but sometimes those translations muddle things more than they help.
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 18:23 utc | 42
Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Mar 18 2022 18:21 utc | 41
No Arnie, I don't create strawman, at least deliberately. I try to understand things, but I know I've got limited knowledge and access. You could help, if you wanted to, by explaining to me (westsplaining?) what neutrality would look like, and how it would be achieved. Because at this point I clearly don't see it.
If I'm using terms that help me to understand, like the Ukrainian SSR, they are just that. That term in particular encapsulated the idea someone would have to enforce Ukrainian neutrality, and I was assuming that would be Russia. Since I'm still not sure what exactly is going on, I'm just trying to make it make sense to me.
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 18:27 utc | 43
Alessandro is reporting that sunflower oil is NOT available.
However, g**gle translates his statement to mean the opposite: that it is available.
Posted by: Platero | Mar 18 2022 18:29 utc | 44
Freedumb fighters?
https://statig1.akamaized.net/bancodeimagens/cu/u4/n6/cuu4n6vm6upb7g1ygjin52419.jpg
They go by a lot of names. Moderate rebels, extremists, terrorists, fundamentalist.
ISIS, AQ, Nusra, Azov, Nationalists, Nazi's, Right sector, OUN... but all the same. And all only attack US targets.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 18 2022 18:29 utc | 45
Posted by: Platero | Mar 18 2022 18:29 utc | 44
Alessandro is reporting that sunflower oil is NOT available. However, g**gle translates his statement to mean the opposite: that it is available.
Yeah, running into problem quite a bit.
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 18:35 utc | 46
One of the members of the tribe is warhawking for afganistani/sirian escalation in Ukraine:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/ukraine-united-states-nato/627052/
"Putin and his subordinates are, in fact, less politicians than gangsters, and need to be treated as such. Instead of talk of off-ramps, for example, there should be promises of war-crimes trials (names included) for those who kidnap mayors, shoot at fleeing civilians, and target maternity hospitals; instead of worry about escalation, there should be promises of the eradication of the Russian army in Ukraine should it use chemical weapons. Instead of carefully titrated military aid, there should be a massive effort to arm people who know why they are fighting and are good at it.
This is all bloody and brutal stuff. But, to quote Clausewitz again, “If one side uses force without compunction, undeterred by the bloodshed it involves, while the other side refrains, the first will gain the upper hand.” We are dealing with an enemy that is vicious but weak, menacing but deeply fearful, and that is likely to crack long before our side does—if only we have the stomach for doing what needs to be done."
I'm scared at the level of self-delusion of this SAIS advisor to the us government.
Posted by: Boo | Mar 18 2022 18:37 utc | 47
Fuel, fertilizer, food. It will not be about price. It will be about having them at all. Rationing by price is the stupidest possible course. And seems to be the furthermost limit of the imagination for market zombies.
Take supply off the market when demand is inflexible. Take the market maker out of the picture when there is no alternative supply.
Has anyone paid attention to basics like reactor fuel? Not uranium, reactor fuel. How about synthetic sapphire crystal? Russia has not even begun to take the gloves off. Russia has an interest in global stability. If the West is determined to have a Great Reset with a smaller population we are certainly on that course.
Posted by: oldhippie | Mar 18 2022 18:39 utc | 48
@Tom Herrera #25
In order to credibly comment on supposed Russian failures, it is necessary to evidence of what Russia's plans were.
Do you know Russia's plans?
If so, you would be the only Western person who does.
From my view:
It really doesn't matter if Russia hoped Ukrainian forces would not fight and/or surrender, or not.
The reality is that Russia is winning in Ukraine regardless.
The Russian military is destroying a numerically superior opponent, on this opponent's home territory, and with said opponent receiving substantial and ongoing support from the outside.
The only thing we can say, and this is entirely from observations, is that Russia is not employing American "shock and awe" tactics until absolutely necessary.
Let's look at your other assertions:
You said:
Again, I thought they would clean out the Donbas quietly, not go after the whole country.
Scott Ritter has repeatedly noted that simply extending the line of confrontation, pre 2/24, to the pre-2014 Donetsk and Lugansk oblast borders, would not resolve the ongoing attacks on the LDPNR. I am 100% in agreement with this.
I believe Putin has said the same as well.
Thus it is not the least bit credible to think that Putin's invasion from Belarus, from Crimea and from the LOC in Donetsk, was predicated on just a "cleaning out of the Donbas".
You said:
In the mean time do any of the luminaries here have insight yet into how Russia might be able to off-ramp from this? I'm assuming they will want to, but I'm really fuzzy on what criteria must be met before withdrawal occurs. "Demilitarization" and "Denazification" seem overly broad goals, ones which might suggest a sustained presence needed, something which Russia has said it wishes to avoid. At least for now.
So you admit you don't know what Russia's goals are, much less Russia's plan. As such, will you now admit that you (or anyone else) cannot possibly assess Russia's performance to date as either a success or failure?
As for off-ramp: again, it depends on what Russia's goals are. I've outlined some scenarios in a previous thread. These include (as top level categories with multiple sub-options under each):
1) Ukraine a la various versions of Minsk Accords (fairly unlikely)
2) Ukraine divided (Along Dniepr, Dnieper + cut off from Coast)
3) Ukraine regime change - ranging from constitutional changes to outright puppet
4) Ukraine occupation by Russian troops (very highly unlikely)
My view is that Russia's plan, whatever it is, most likely has different actions depending on the situation on the ground and internationally.
Demilitarization is already accomplished in the sense that the Ukrainian military, the biolabs, foreign trainers, the military infrastructure and most of their gear is gone. But it could be rebuilt quickly depending on the end game without safeguards - and thus the flexibility.
DeNazification is also at least partially accomplished. The false belief that the Azov could stand up to Russian forces is gone, as is the faith in NATO equipment and training and outright support.
Not all of the Azov/Aidar/Svoboda/Pravy Sektor are "neutralized" - but again, they don't have to be depending on the various possible scenarios. What we can say is that the 12+ brigades trapped in the Donetsk cauldron are likely the best of the Ukrainian military, which Wiki says was 29 brigades to start with. And that cauldron is enclosed and shrinking.
All anyone can say for sure, right now, is that Russia, Putin and the Russian people are 100% in lockstep regarding resolving the Ukraine problem and that Russia continues to dominate the military situation and make visible progress while minimizing civilian casualties.
Posted by: c1ue | Mar 18 2022 18:39 utc | 49
Putin's speech in Munich in 2007:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ58Yv6kP44
A reflective look at this speech 15 years later:
The Georgian war, initiated by Mikhail Saakashvilli (then president of Georgia) and the Ukrainian coup of 2014 confirmed Russian beliefs about US foreign policy and its intentions toward Russia.
Posted by: the pessimist | Mar 18 2022 18:39 utc | 50
The complete absence of diplomacy attempts from the West speaks volumes. I remmember Henry Kissinger conducting what was called back then shuttle diplomacy when a war broke out. He would fly from capital to capital in order to work out a comprimise. He made many mistakes but it was an era of diplomacy back in those days.
Posted by: circumspect | Mar 18 2022 18:40 utc | 51
@Boo #47
That guy is just talking his book.
Look at his bio:
Eliot A. Cohen is a contributing writer at The Atlantic, a professor at The Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies, and the Arleigh Burke chair in strategy at CSIS. From 2007 to 2009, he was the Counselor of the Department of State
Arleigh Burke - a US destroyer class...
Posted by: c1ue | Mar 18 2022 18:42 utc | 52
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but here's what's on the Agenda for the upcoming NATO Summit.
140000 troops to Eastern Europe
Plus 1 Billion in aid to Ukraine.
Surveil, surveil, surveil every inch of terrain from East to West and North to South and destroy every depot, warehouse, hanger, airfield, fuel tanks, fuel transport; checkpoint routes for large transport vehicles...send them all sky high!
Posted by: Circe | Mar 18 2022 18:44 utc | 53
@Arne Hartmann 26
“Once you are in a "fringe" spot, life becomes difficult.“
Very true. Having the “wrong” opinion can have serious consequences these days in the “free and democratic” West.
I am heartened that there are still people who can think for themselves and resist internalizing the media’s panic of the week/month.
What I still can’t fully understand, however, is how people who once were able to think reasonably critically and have a healthy skepticism of media delivered “truths” and conventional wisdom can go in the opposite direction to become the “brainwashed” media-influenced zombies they once decried.
This seems very regressive. I thought people normally go from being thoughtless and having no or false knowledge to learning how to think and becoming better able to tell the difference between opinions, facts and truths.
Posted by: Left Coast Canuck | Mar 18 2022 18:46 utc | 54
Hopefully his input is disregarded by the cooler heads in the pentagon. Although what he outlines as a strategy is a heavier repeat of Afganistan and at the moment seems to be the most likely path US will take in 2nd phase. These ppl have not learned anything.
Posted by: Boo | Mar 18 2022 18:47 utc | 55
Posted by: c1ue | Mar 18 2022 18:42 utc | 52
Oops, my reply was to your post c1ue.
Posted by: Boo | Mar 18 2022 18:48 utc | 56
Posted by: c1ue | Mar 18 2022 18:39 utc | 49
That was a helpful summary c1ue, thank you. If I ever said I thought I understood the Russian plan I don't recall it, but you're correct in that I'm making certain assumptions based on my own experiences. I haven't any real idea of what the Russian plan may be, and from your post it seems you feel you do not know of it either.
I can't put the pieces together. I don't know how you can say Russia is winning in this context, but that's just my perspective of course. I'm listening to yours and everyone else's. Some have now said, since my post, that there is no off-ramp while others have offered their thoughts on how an off-ramp might occur, including your four points. I personally don't know which outcome I think most likely at this point, but that's because I don't have anywhere near enough data.
I generally like Scott Ritter's analysis, but it doesn't mean I'm going to always agree with him. Which I don't, in his Donbas analysis, but he's obviously way above my pay grade and much more likely to be right than I am. I'm just a noisy serf.
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 18:51 utc | 57
La mia modesta impressione è che il commentatore Tom Herrera sia un infiltrato,
Posted by: Alessandro Cagliostr | Mar 18 2022 18:51 utc | 58
@54 Left Coast Canuck
This seems very regressive. I thought people normally go from being thoughtless and having no or false knowledge to learning how to think and becoming better able to tell the difference between opinions, facts and truths.
Basic propaganda / fearmongering / herd mentality, same as it ever was. Only made easier, from so many people in a semi-exhausted state of fear after 2 years of Covid.
Posted by: ptb | Mar 18 2022 18:52 utc | 59
Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 18:13 utc | 34
As to how Russia finalizes things in Ukraine at this point is I think speculation. I do think Will have a number of options preplanned depending on how the situation evolves. At the moment it seems mainly about freeing the ethnic Russians with as little civilian casualties as possible and convincing as many of the regular army as possible to surrender or put down their weapons and go home.
Denazifying is already under way in the regions under their control mayors and other officials being arrested.
I would guess that what we are seeing now is the first stage - destroying the extremist volunteer battalions that are basically branches or descendants of the OUN, and freeing all the predominantly ethnic Russian areas. That is roughly all the area east of the Dnieper, and around the Black Sea coast to Odessa.
Among those tat will be on Russia's wanted list are many officials - SBU, Interior ministry ect.
By the time Russia has finished freeing the ethnic Russians areas, the majority of the rank and file extremists will be dead or in captivity and the regular military will be disbanded or destroyed.
I think Russia has the geo-political elbow room to take its time and do things right.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 18 2022 18:52 utc | 60
Mod russis telegram channel
▫️"Today we have every reason to publicly announce some facts of the current tragedy in Mariupol.
▫️According to radio intercepts, it has been reliably established that nationalists in the city are conducting intensive negotiations with Kiev to unblock Mariupol and send them support, since they understand that without strengthening they are not able to fulfill their tasks.
▫️Over the past three days, the intensity of negotiations has increased significantly, while negotiations on both sides are taking place in extremely rough tones. On the one hand, the NeoNazis in Mariupol feel the hopelessness of the current situation, and on the other, Kiev understands the impossibility of providing any assistance. In addition, officials of Kiev are voicing rhetoric that the militants in the besieged city should become an example of perseverance, sacrifice themselves for a common victory and they will be given the status of "martyrs of Mariupol".
Posted by: Virgile | Mar 18 2022 18:53 utc | 61
The US and its allies rescued Nazis from the endangered species list.
I live among Ukrainian exiles and, until about ten years ago they kept very quiet about the dirty secret of the OUN and WWII. The old men were dying slowly, the guy who had been an exemplary citizen for years and described his origins as Austrian, joined the Legion and, in all the years I knew him, only talked once of his service in the Galician Division of the SS, the lucky escape south through Croatia (and that's another story) and waiting while the Pope, Field Marshal Alexander and the partisans arranged shipping them to Canada.
Talking to those people and their sons about "the war" was something best avoided..
But now they have been empowered again- after all the SS fought Russians and specialised in killing communists. And now they are doing the same thing again on home turf.
I'm very optimistic: all the Russians have to do is to install a better government than the succession of thieves and human traffickers who have been looting one of the richest countries on earth for the past 30 years. It won't be difficult especially as they will be assisted by thousands of Ukrainians driven into exile or reduced to silence and solitude by the death squads that have been targeting Moskals and Reds- under the expert direction of Canadian and US veterans (Torture R Us) of Afghanistan and Libya. After that the sanity will reproduce itself.
The support for the current version of Bandera nationalism is very local and very limited and almost entirely subsidised by outsiders doing Imperialism's dirty work. Once it has been established that Ukraine is not going to be the an Eastern Front Theme Park but a place where highly talented, hardworking and independent minded people make a decent living in the natural bazaar between Europe, Asia and Africa, a million miles from America, the demand for 5th columnists, sharing fond memories of the Fuhrer, will disappear. Maybe Australia will welcome them.
Posted by: bevin | Mar 18 2022 18:53 utc | 62
I literally laughed out loud when I saw this.
https://www.rt.com/russia/552233-ukraines-president-nobel-peace-prize/
Posted by: MarkU | Mar 18 2022 18:57 utc | 63
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 18:27 utc | 43
My last comment:
Bandera's All-Ukrainian nationalism originating in Western Ukraine means that only pure Ukrainains can live in Ukraine. If you identify as someone else, you dont belong to the purified Ukraine people, the real heirs of the Kievan Rus. Jews and Poles fell victim to that ideology during WW2, because they identified as Poles and Jews, not Ukrainians. But this ideology didnt vanish after WW2. It stayed in Western Ukraine (USSR tried to eraze and suppress it) or it fled to US and Canada.
This nationalism provided the street muscle for the US to stage the Maidan coup in 2014 and in an attempt to ukrainize Eastern Ukraine, where most ppl identiefied as Russians, it attacked Donbass and Crimea. Turchinov and Avakov helped this idelogy to gain access to public life and fester at all levers of power. Russia took Crimea out. It made sure those Russians living there could freely live their "Russianess" within Russia and provided the Russians in Donbass with the means to fight back. Other Oblasts with a Russian majority did not revolt, but were confronted with being forced to fit into the All-Ukrainian ideology, eg a language law that banned Russians from speaking Russian or children learning at school that Bandera was a hero who fought against evil Russians for the freedom of Ukraine.
I think that is what Putin means by "denazification": He sees the Russians in Ukraine as belonging to the Ruskii mir, the Russian world. He sees them as being turned away or even against Russia with each passing year. He wants to halt and reverse that. Is an invasion the right choice? Not for me, but I am not him. However, I can understand his reasoning.
Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Mar 18 2022 19:00 utc | 64
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 18 2022 18:52 utc | 60
Thanks Peter for your summary. As you say, we're all speculating, but you make cogent points that I have appreciated reading.
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 19:04 utc | 65
Posted by: Platero | Mar 18 2022 18:29 utc | 44
Not true from here in the US. Which G**gle translate domain are you using? Here's what it returned for me:
Meanwhile, on the shelves of Italian and French food warehouses, sunflower seed oil is nowhere to be found (not followed by sunflower emoji from Alessandro's original post in the translate window [obviously])*emphasis mine
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Mar 18 2022 19:06 utc | 66
Endgame in Ukraine comes into view:
1. Russian forces will sweep cities that will later constitute part of the independent republics. Mariupol, being within Donetsk oblast, and Severodonetsk, inside Luhansk, will be stormed.
2. Cities outside will be sieged but not taken. The objective is to negotiate surrender. Once Ukraine's eastern armies are completely surrounded, it will become politically feasible for Zelenskiy/NATO to concede defeat and accept neutrality, demilitarization, and the loss of the southeastern oblasts along the Sea of Azov. Odessa will stay with Ukraine.
Things should get clearer by beginning of April.
Posted by: s | Mar 18 2022 19:06 utc | 67
final press release outta DC - "Now see what that Slavic slut has made me do", right as Biden reaches for the nuclear trigger."
Posted by: james | Mar 18 2022 16:25 utc | 3
Well, before nukes have their word you would see another release, from Kiev:
@DC No, Russia is not slu Slavic! I am!!!
Posted by: Arioch | Mar 18 2022 19:08 utc | 68
"...What I still can’t fully understand, however, is how people who once were able to think reasonably critically and have a healthy skepticism of media delivered “truths” and conventional wisdom can go in the opposite direction to become the “brainwashed” media-influenced zombies they once decried."
LeftCoast Canuck
Think of all the people who could reasonably conclude that opening their mouths could cost them their livelihoods. Do you think the School Boards would not fire teachers speaking in public unfashionably?
And what about the millions working in retail and other private businesses?
The Unions no longer protect such people.
And then there are those who, not without reason, fear that CSIS or the Mounties probably have files on people who post at forums like this. And maybe, at tax time, such miscreants could find their filings reviewed with unusual care.
And what about those who, even if they don't work for the government, have kids who do..?
The velvet glove of the propagandist encase an iron hand.
Posted by: bevin | Mar 18 2022 19:09 utc | 69
Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Mar 18 2022 19:00 utc | 64
Well, I'm kind of hoping it is not your final comment, but I do appreciate it.
One of the things that seems tied in to all of this is the concept that Nazi ideology, and original Nazis themselves, survived the Second World War. I have greater knowledge of the Ratlines from Germany to Argentina and other areas than I do of what happened in the are we are referring to as Ukraine. I personally think one of the worst of the bunch, Martin Bormann, made it to Argentina and, along with a host of others, perpetuated the nightmare there, in Chile, and in other areas. I found Paul Manning's Nazi in Exile to be well written and researched, and there is a significant body of material available in English on the Ratlines, Operation Paperclip, etc.
You're filling in details I did not have on the current context, but it all seems to be part of a larger picture of Nazi survival and continued malfeasance.
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 19:13 utc | 70
s in @67
Those achievements sound very minimal. Putin did not have to fight a war across the entire country to reach them. NATO won't see just this as a "defeat".
Posted by: Inkan1969 | Mar 18 2022 19:13 utc | 71
MarkU.
With regards to the Nobel Peace Prize, I thought satire died when Kissinger and Obama both received it, if Zelensky gets it, the little credibility on Noble Peace Prizes that they have left will evaporate.
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Mar 18 2022 19:15 utc | 72
Posted by: bevin | Mar 18 2022 19:09 utc | 69
I've already seen a case reported online of a teacher who was fired for teaching his class both sides of the war instead of only the approved version.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Mar 18 2022 19:16 utc | 73
Summary: Biden stressed that US is not seeking a new Cold War, not to change Chinese political system, not to strengthen alliances against China, not to support Taiwan Independence, not wanting to have conflicts with China. Would like .....to have manageable competition and dissension.
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Mar 18 2022 17:07 utc | 16
WTF? Did he even say that with a straight face? US actions is the definition of opposite in all these regards.
Props to Xi and the team for not straight up burst out laughing when the old tard sprouted this out.
Posted by: A.L. | Mar 18 2022 19:20 utc | 74
Re. denazification
It’s worth keeping in mind that every country, government and prominent organization uses propaganda to shape and influence opinions. This is just how the world works. A term like “denazification” is a propaganda term whether you agree with what it implies or not.
It’s silly to assume that only the side one does not like makes use of propaganda techniques. During wartime propaganda is as ubiquitous as weapons and soldiers.
It’s also important to note that propaganda is not synonymous with “fake news” or “lies”. The most effective propaganda is subtle and does not tell outright falsehoods.
There will always be those who uncritically accept everything their side says as divine truth but there is nothing you can do about that. It’s a coping mechanism, a safety blanket to provide comfort in a chaotic and uncertain world.
Posted by: Left Coast Canuck | Mar 18 2022 19:21 utc | 75
The Wests Russian "Cancel" culture continues, and if you ask me it beginning to look very childish.
"Legendary cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin has been caught up in the global push to punish all things Russian amid the Ukraine crisis, despite having died more than half a century ago.
A major US space industry conference has censored Gagarin’s name, essentially canceling the first human to travel into outer space. The Space Foundation, a Colorado-based not-for-profit group led largely by aerospace industry executives, altered the agenda for its upcoming Space Symposium in April, renaming a fundraising party that used to be titled “Yuri’s Night.”
The group noted that “in light of current world events,” the fundraiser had been renamed “A Celebration of Space: Discover What’s Next.” "
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Mar 18 2022 19:23 utc | 76
bevin @62--
Install better government.
In the aftermath of the failed Kazakh Color Revolution, there was a CSTO conference that looked into the event where Lukashenko made the key observation--it was the Inside issues that allowed the Outside agitation a place to develop and exploit. Inside issues being socio-economic and their political underpinnings. When you look into the Ukrainian context, that's also very much the case as noted by Putin and other historians. As Rome learned--keep the people fat, productively entertained and happy, and you'll have no revolts. The reason for the USSR's implosion and Ukraine's is essentially the same, and the same could be said about numerous other nations whose governments were toppled by coups. Essentially, you must corrupt the polity to keep your political position. Putin is a prime example of that as are the Chinese. The Soviet Nomenklatura and the Tsar's before them provide the opposite example. Of course, the best known is that of the French nobility prior to 1789--Let them eat cake!
And so the mass expulsions of Russian diplomats begins, hopefully Russia will reply in kind.
"Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia announced on Friday that they had decided to expel a number of Russian diplomats from their respective missions in the four EU countries. Russia said the move would not go unanswered."
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Mar 18 2022 19:28 utc | 78
Left Coast Canuck at @54
What I still can’t fully understand, however, is how people who once were able to think reasonably critically and have a healthy skepticism of media delivered “truths” and conventional wisdom can go in the opposite direction to become the “brainwashed” media-influenced zombies they once decried.
But what if those people are still thinking critically with healthy skepticism, and you can't accept the anti-war conclusions they come up with to the point that you have to brand them "brainwashed zombies" to explain their conclusions?
bevin at @69
Think of all the people who could reasonably conclude that opening their mouths could cost them their livelihoods.
In places like this the BBC is arguing that Russian public sector workers are in the situation you described. A claim that they were worried that not cooperating with the rally would cost them their livelihoods, and they were told what to say. That's it's a Putin velvet glove that leaves people "forced to attend the rally.
Posted by: Inkan1969 | Mar 18 2022 19:30 utc | 79
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 19:13 utc | 70
Tom,
You're being intentionally obtuse and disingenuous. Back in 2015, congressman John Conyers called the azov batallion neonazis and Congress explicitly forbade any financial and military help to the Azov batallion. I would not trust the judgement of JNS and Jew York times who are of the same tribe as Zelensky and are clearly protecting his behind.
Posted by: Boo | Mar 18 2022 19:32 utc | 80
@bevin 60
I don’t mean hiding one’s views or pretending to go along with the crowd in order to preserve one’s freedom or social status.
I mean people who go from critically thinking about media influence and propaganda to genuinely buying into the very same prevailing myths and conventional wisdom they used to see through and challenge.
Posted by: Left Coast Canuck | Mar 18 2022 19:33 utc | 81
And with the capture of the biolabs in Ukraine by Russian forces and the evidence found in them that the US was experimenting in infecting migrating birds amongst dabbling in deadly pathogens as well. This from Lavrov has a ring of truth about it.
"Russia suspects Pentagon-funded bioresearch laboratories in foreign nations, including those in Ukraine, may pose a threat because of the secrecy surrounding their work, Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told RT. Washington apparently didn’t want to risk exposing its own people to the pathogenic threat, he suggested.
“The Americans some years ago decided that it was too dangerous to do [such research] on their own soil. So, they moved all these threatening and dangerous activities to other countries,” Lavrov claimed.
“More and more they concentrate their research and experiments around the borders of the Russian Federation and China,” "
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Mar 18 2022 19:33 utc | 82
Th head of the Empire of Lies has just been caught out on a whopper, saying one thing in the media but doing another.
"The US has been vocal about restricting Russian oil imports, but sources say an actual ban is unlikely as it would further propel gasoline prices, which are already record high.
On March 8, President Joe Biden announced his administration was banning Russian oil, natural gas and coal imports to the US as part of a sanctions package in response to Russia’s military operation in Ukraine. Two days later, the House of Representatives passed a bill to ban Russian energy imports. The media, which speculated how long it would take for sanctions to turn toward energy carriers, quickly picked up the news, with some Western experts saying the US move could be followed by other countries.
However, according to CNN, US Senate sources are now saying it’s unlikely their chamber will move on the bill to turn it into law. The sources explain that the move by the Senate is considered unnecessary after the president took executive action to ban the imports. Also, according to Senator Joe Manchin, who chairs the Senate Energy Committee, the House bill is weaker than Biden’s executive action, so the Senate is reluctant to move on the measure."
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Mar 18 2022 19:38 utc | 83
@ Republicofscotland | Mar 18 2022 19:28 utc | 78 with the report about countries kicking out Russian diplomats
I wonder what they will do when the China/Russia axis forms more fully. Are they going to kick out the diplomats from China also....cutting off one's nose to spite one's face comes to mind
It will be interesting to see the follow on to today's meeting between Xi and Biden. All the PR before hand said it was going to be all about Russia support and initial reports of the meeting don't include any mention of Russia or Ukraine.
China knows that Russia is taking the lead on the military challenge to empire but, understand clearly, China is supportive of what Russia is doing in Ukraine to establish regional security from empire. The rumblings we are reading about a new Reserve Currency have China at the core but Russia's oil, IMO, will be part of the commodity side of the alternative money definition.....it won't be just gold folks because gold is not close enough to FOOD, but oil is.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 18 2022 19:40 utc | 84
Posted by: Boo | Mar 18 2022 19:32 utc | 80
Hallo Boo. I think you were referencing a post higher up. In that one I was just pointing out, or had intended to point out, that NYT had taken a brief approach at a broader view, then the very next day reversed course. The link to the JNS was to point out their perspective. I didn't make any judgement on it, as I recall.
I really am trying to figure this out.
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 19:44 utc | 85
"interesting experience. I think many ppl keep their politics and knowledge to themselves to not antagonize family or workplace. Once you are in a "fringe" spot, life becomes difficult. "
Definitely true for me. I have to keep my thoughts to myself.
Posted by: Simcha | Mar 18 2022 19:45 utc | 86
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 19:13 utc | 70
Dont get me wrong the majority of Ukrainians - except maybe in the West- do not subscribe to that kind of All-Ukrainian nationalism. However, since these nationalists provided the street muscle at the Maidan place in 2014, they were able to infiltrate the Ukrainian security apparatus. Especially Turchinov and Avakov - strangely Ukrainian Russian speakers - were key to giving them access to the levers of power and public life.
This is the muscle that Zelensky is facing. I dont think Zelensky is anywhere close to being a hardcore ideologue. But he has no wiggle room either and even succumbed to their demands: He banned TV stations that were seen as pro Russian (one of the stationed belonged to Putin's billionaire buddy Medvedchuk, who was leading the polls against Zelensky, so he is no saint either).
I see it as this: Putin thinks that the US has been using the nationalist muscle within the security apparatus since 2014 to control Ukrainian politics. If Russia can take them out (denazification), US loses control over Ukraine, which would then enable Ukraine to circle back to Russia. However, maybe its just me, but if you want ppl to be closer to you, you dont attack them. In turn, letting history go its way, would not have helped either.
Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Mar 18 2022 19:46 utc | 87
Left Coast Canuck@81
I guess I'm just cynical but my experience is that most people talk a good fight when it comes to critical thought- they learn to believe, very sincerely, what it profits them to believe. Or, what it will not get them into trouble believing.
For example: is there a person on earth who having the basic facts in front of him-as he does, because they are difficult to avoid seeing- does not know that the State of Israel, as a state for one religious denomination, ought not to be tolerated, so evident are the crimes its partisans commit daily?
Cowardice and conformity, the urge to keep one's head beneath the parapet, are the key shapers of public opinion.
Posted by: bevin | Mar 18 2022 19:49 utc | 88
@Virgile | 61
"In addition, officials of Kiev are voicing rhetoric that the militants in the besieged city should become an example of perseverance, sacrifice themselves for a common victory and they will be given the status of "martyrs of Mariupol"."
If that is true, then the negotiations going on in Belarus are just a device used by Zelenskyy to buy time while NATO and US are deploying devices along the borders.
So my question is: How can Russia have any expectation that the current government will implement any accord agreed on at the current talks in Belarus? It seems to me neither Zelenskyy nor the US can be trusted. What do you think?
Posted by: Richard L | Mar 18 2022 19:50 utc | 89
"..maybe its just me, but if you want ppl to be closer to you, you dont attack them."
But you sure as hell don't allow them to attack you, or your people, whenever and as often as the sadistic fancy takes them.
Let's keep this "invasion" in context.
Posted by: bevin | Mar 18 2022 19:53 utc | 90
Tom Herrera @ 34 and elsewhere:
To understand what Russia means by "denazifying" Ukraine, you would need to know what has been going on in Ukraine as experienced by the public, particularly by families with children at school and college, and in public broadcasting and intellectual life, since 2014 at least if not before.
My understanding, limited as it is, is that all languages other than Ukrainian have been outlawed in public broadcasting and publishing, and in schools and other educational institutions. The language laws discriminate against Hungarians in far-western Ukraine, against Greeks in Mariupol and other ethnic minorities in Ukraine, not just Russian-language speakers.
I understand history and other textbooks for schoolchildren in Ukraine have been rewritten to portray Ukraine as a racially pure and superior nation of Aryans and Russia as a nation of mixed-breed Finnic / Mongol / Slav sub-humans. Academia in Ukraine seems obsessed with racial purity and advocating racial hygiene policies. The obsession can go to extremes as in the example of Irina Farion, a public figure in Ukraine who periodically raises alarm about children having Russian rather than Ukrainian names or some other petty language issue.
With this level of brainwashing going on, one can appreciate that in a few years' time the social experiment being inflicted on the public in Ukraine and their children in particular could lead to a dangerous and unstable situation not only for Russia with a racist and hostile neighbour but also for Poland and other neighbouring countries. With Ukraine descending into poverty at the same time, and the country dominated by foreign puppet-masters intent on its resources, a scenario in which Ukraine becomes a transit for smuggling weapons, terrorists, drugs and other dangerous and illicit trade including biological and chemical weapons into its neighbours becomes more than possible.
Posted by: Jen | Mar 18 2022 20:02 utc | 92
Let Ukraine take Russia down.
US and NATO should let them do it alone as an example to the world to show how weak Russia truly is.
Then the West should treat China in the same manner. The stategy has been cast.
Posted by: Steve K | Mar 18 2022 20:03 utc | 93
Re: "Ukrainian SSR"
If only...
Far more likely joining Donetsk and Lugansk we'll see unfurled the flags of a Federation of People's Republics
Whether they drive the formation of a Ukrainian SSR 2.0, a Novorossiyan SSR or Federative People's Republic, or some other manifestation of their sovereignty, is up to them when and as they determine.
Posted by: Vintage Red | Mar 18 2022 20:03 utc | 94
Richard L | Mar 18 2022 19:50 utc | 89
Putin uses terms like drug addict to describe Zelensky. The Russians can use these talks same as the Americans do. For the Russians its about corridors for getting civilians out. The Americans use the talks for stalling. There is no future for a drug addict in the future Ukraine admin. He'll probably end on the scrapheap of used US tools snorting coke.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 18 2022 20:09 utc | 95
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 19:44 utc | 85
Apologies, linked the wrong post. Btw, somebody already posted, and I'm reposting here, a study on the Azov battalion from Stanford university:
https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/azov-battalion#highlight_text_33841
It walks and quacks like a duck...
Posted by: Boo | Mar 18 2022 20:15 utc | 97
Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Mar 18 2022 19:46 utc | 87
I see it as this: Putin thinks that the US has been using the nationalist muscle within the security apparatus since 2014 to control Ukrainian politics. If Russia can take them out (denazification), US loses control over Ukraine, which would then enable Ukraine to circle back to Russia. However, maybe its just me, but if you want ppl to be closer to you, you dont attack them. In turn, letting history go its way, would not have helped either.
I think I'm kind of picking up on your vibe here, and I ain't so sure I'm all that far from it at this point. The situation seems to have us all in a bit of a Catch 22. I'm primarily interested in how to de-escalate this, because it just seems so insanely dangerous. I certainly don't have a problem with a multi-polar world myself, but this event seems to be driving us away from peaceful coexistence. Perhaps it will be a complete remake of the global chessboard, but at this point it appears to me it is more scattering the pieces haphazardly than taking a disciplined approach.
I do think I understand more of the Russian perspective now than I did before I started posting here. If that's worth anything.
Posted by: Tom Herrera | Mar 18 2022 20:16 utc | 98
Some next-level trolling going on here....
Posted by: A.L. | Mar 18 2022 19:58 utc
Yes, the pros have been wheeled out.
Posted by: Herman | Mar 18 2022 20:26 utc | 99
arioch - s - arne hartmann - peter au - bevin - karlof1 - and many others.... thanks for these posts today...
marku - you know the nobel peace prize for zelensky is coming... that is a given!!! right is right! doesn't matter if it is far right either, lol....
i heard on cbc radio this morning canuck Foreign Affairs Minister Melanie Joly saying about denazification - how could this be when zelensky is a jew???
really deep, deep thinkers we have here in canada.... good thing i use cbc to get informed like this... i would have missed it until they give zelensky the peace prize!
Posted by: james | Mar 18 2022 20:28 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
John Helmer: “Zelensky Himself Is Now in Polish Hands;” March 15 Summit with Polish, Czech, and Slovenian Prime Ministers in Przemysl, Poland, Not Kiev
Posted on March 17, 2022 by Yves Smith
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2022/03/john-helmer-zelensky-himself-is-now-in-polish-hands-march-15-summit-with-polish-czech-and-slovenian-prime-ministers-in-przemysl-poland-not-kiev.html
Posted by: kitaySupporter | Mar 18 2022 16:19 utc | 1