Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
January 12, 2022

With No Progress In Talks Russia Will Have To React

Monday's negotiations over Russian security demands between the U.S. and Russia were, as predicted, a failure.

Russia's core demand, to end the NATO drive to its borders by excluding membership for the Ukraine and Georgia, was rejected. A for once realistic NYT piece did not even try to hide the disaster:

In Talks on Ukraine, U.S. and Russia Deadlock Over NATO Expansion

Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei A. Ryabkov, Russia’s lead negotiator, insisted after the meeting that it was “absolutely mandatory” that Ukraine “never, never, ever” become a NATO member.

His American counterpart, Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman, reiterated that the United States could never make such a pledge because “we will not allow anyone to slam closed NATO’s open door policy,” and she said that the United States and its allies would not stand by if Russia sought to change international borders “by force."

Today's talk between all NATO members and Russia in Brussels had similar results. Russia's core requests were rejected and a bunch of stuff with which NATO would like to restrict Russian advantages was thrown up to divert the attention from the core issues.

As NATO's Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg summarized it:

Today Russia raised the proposals that they published in December, aimed at addressing their security concerns.

These include demands to stop admitting any new members to NATO. And to withdraw forces from eastern Allies.

Allies on their side reaffirmed NATO’s Open Door policy. And the right for each nation to choose its own security arrangements.

Okay then. Russia will certainly choose its own security arrangements. And NATO will not like to see them.

The NATO wishlist for future talk includes these items:

Allies would like to discuss concrete ways to increase the transparency of military exercises, to prevent dangerous military incidents, and reduce space and cyber threats.

Allies have also offered to look at arms control, disarmament and non-proliferation. Including to address reciprocal limitations on missiles, and to address nuclear policies.

On lines of communications, NATO Allies are interested in looking at ways to improve civil and military communications channels, and the possibility of re-establishing our respective offices in Moscow and Brussels.

None of those have any priority for Russia and, as it will surely point out, it was NATO which in October initiated the breaking off of civil and military communications channels by expelling 8 members of Russia's NATO mission in Brussels

The alliance has also halved the size of the Russian mission to NATO, headquartered in Brussels, from twenty to ten accredited positions -- the eight expelled Russian officials plus two other positions that will now be abolished.

Russia reacted to that outrageous behavior by closing its outpost in Brussels.

After the meeting today Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman added a new U.S. demand to her list:

Sherman, the number two State Department official who is leading the U.S. delegation in separate meetings in Europe this week, said the NATO-Russia meeting ended with "a sober challenge" for Russia "to de escalate tensions, choose the path of diplomacy, to continue to engage in honest and reciprocal dialogue so that together we can identify solutions that enhance the security of all."

The deputy secretary said that the Russian delegation did not commit, nor reject, NATO offers for follow-up discussions. The delegation further made no commitment to de-escalate, Sherman said, but added that they did not reject de-escalation.

"Russia's actions have caused this crisis and it is on Russia to de-escalate tensions and give diplomacy the chance to succeed... There was no commitment to de-escalate. Nor was there a statement that there would not be."

There is nothing to de-escalate. A number of Russian troops stationed within Russia are training to guard Russian borders. They have always done so and will continue to do that. It is the U.S., not Russia, which is exaggerating their number, today with 'additional helicopters' which no one has seen:

While troop movements have slowed, there are still 100,000 military personnel near the border and now the Russians have positioned additional attack aircraft there, American officials said. Attack and transport helicopters, along with ground attack fighter jets, would be a critical Russian advantage, should Mr. Putin decide to invade Ukraine.

Alexander Mercouris points out (vid) that the U.S. started the current affair when it, in March 2021, pushed the Ukraine to restart a war against it rebellious eastern Donbas provinces. Russia responded by quickly building up and showing off a force large enough to destroy the Ukrainian army.

That calmed down the Ukrainian issue for a while but the U.S. and NATO continued to pressure Russia with bomber flights near Russia's borders and warships in the Black Sea. What did they expect but a Russian response?

There is nothing the U.S. can do about troop positioning within Russia. Exaggerating their numbers only builds more pressure. The constant false lamenting about 'Russian military build-ups' don't help to calm things down.

The 'de-escalation' has to happen on the U.S. side. Otherwise it will be Russia which has to escalate. That is the warning Russia's President Vladimir Putin has given to U.S. President Joe Biden. But it does not seem that the U.S. has come to understand that.

The talks will fail as the 'western' side is rejecting the main requests Russia has. The promised 'military-technical measures' will be implemented in Europe, Asia and probably also in Latin America. Given that Russia has throughout the last decade presented a number of revolutionary weapon designs we can expect some new surprises which the U.S. will be unable to match.

Fact is that Russia is capable to defend itself and its allies from military attacks and U.S. instigated color revolution attempts like in Belarus and Kazakhstan.

That the U.S. does not like that is not Russia's problem.

Posted by b on January 12, 2022 at 17:52 UTC | Permalink

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Fact is that Russia is capable to defend itself and its allies from military attacks and U.S. instigated color revolution attempts like in Belarus and Kazakhstan.

Posted by b on January 12, 2022 at 17:52 UTC | Permalink

What Russia is forced to do is to demonstrate military action, it must be brutal (not necessarily involving killing, show of overwhelming strength might suffice), and it must target US homeland (job #1). It also must destroy NATO by proving it is useless, paper tiger and that it's members are not protected (job #2).

Posted by: Abe | Jan 12 2022 19:46 utc | 35

On one hand, Russia escalating by threatening the security of the entire European continent as they profess their backs are to the wall and they have no room to retreat, and, on another hand NATO is per b and others a wimpy target that will be destroyed by Russa (as is).

So why exactly is Russia insecure?

Without any of the baggage of Nazi Germany, Russia's recent actions very much remind of pre-WWII Germany, and not Bay of Pigs.

Hitler, just like Putin, was a member of the security state (first army then secret police) that turned around a defeated former great power from humiliating circumstances back to heavy player. Both are nationalists. Both voice a political nationalist contention that the former great power got a bad deal in the treaties after losses in WW I and Cold War respectively. Both are making claims to "historic" national lands. Both have native ethnics spread in the neighborhood. Both are insisting on officially diving up the world. (Sure, Anglos then and now were against that only because they want it all. They are Anglos not angels.)

Now, I agree that the Western pointy heads are apparently disbelieving in the seriousness of Russia's ultimatum. I also agree that Russians are right in not wanting MAD defeating first strike capabilities targeting them.

But here is the rub. If Russians were really angels, they would know that very soon the same too quick to respond to MAD defeating threats could come straight from US mainland. So threatening WW III over Poland et al hosting missiles is not responsible. Because this thing can actually spin out of control.

And for what reason? Is NATO a threat to Russia? No, because Russia enjoys conventional military advantage. Is NATO a serious fighting force? No, it is a joke of an outfit suffering defeat after defeat most recently in M.E. Is Russia seriously worried about a MAD defeating threat from near lands? Per what was noted above (regarding ultimate irrelevance of distance) the only 'Angelic' demand worthy of ultimatum would be to demand Total Nuclear Disarmament by all parties.

But none of the Big Five want to give up their nukes.

Posted by: actually | Jan 12 2022 22:29 utc | 101

Brought to You by Caucaus-Based Khazari-Ashkenazi Tribals TwinkBlinken, Nudelman-Khagan+Husband, Zelensky the Clown, and Burisma-Biden.

Since so many ChickenHawk Tribals continue their Ethnic Wars against Russia, RUS may be prudent in adding ISR to the "Greater NATO" Association along with UKR and GEO.

Posted by: IronForge | Jan 12 2022 22:30 utc | 102

Pepe Escobar's article in The Cradle provides additional coloration to the Big Picture and the players involved. It serves to remind that the actions are global in scope. Tokayev seems like a player to watch given his background. His immediate request to become linked to Russia via the Union State mechanism gives me an idea of the composition of Russia's future informal empire, a structure that will be nothing like the USSR and far more powerful.

The West has itself to blame as it certainly has gone well out-of-its-way to make Russia into a longstanding enemy when there was no need to so. Now it has the confrontation it's craved but finds itself no longer up to the task and incapable of admitting that truth.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 12 2022 22:32 utc | 103

The US is using their garbage games - the concept of 'escalate to de-escalate' as a negotiating tactic. In play since Trump at least.

What a waste of time.

Kabuki.A device, Stupid.

The choice is simple:
v"many countries have joined the alliance, and their territory is being openly used to project power against Russia from various geographic locations and into its strategic interior," he said.

"This seriously worsens our security and creates unacceptable risks for our security which we will confront," Grushko added. Moscow, he said, will have "no choice" but to implement a policy of 'counter-containment' and 'counter-intimidation' "if we fail to reverse the current, very dangerous course of events.""

These 2 terms are pregnant with meaning. Many tools are available. NONE include military conflict, in spite of the wild eyed speculations we see in media.

Counter intimidation is hypersonic missiles place time-equidistant to US threats to Moscow. But, in the Russian case, their hypersonic missiles cannot be shot down.

Ditto Europe.

Human error makes such deployments dangerous.

Don't do it.

Let's talk, and eliminate this danger.

But don't bother coming with a 'we win, you lose' attitude. Because you have, by the lawsw of physics already lost.

We are just not rubbing your nose in it.


Posted by: powerandpeople | Jan 12 2022 22:36 utc | 104

Tom_Q_Collins | Jan 12 2022 20:17 utc | 48

karlof1 | Jan 12 2022 22:01 utc | 91

From Counterpunch

At the very time that the United States, polarized around the issues of democracy vs. autocracy, is facing a serious domestic crisis,

I suggest the focus of this discussion would profit by addressing what Russia can/will do to enhance the present US serious domestic crisis,

Posted by: pogohere | Jan 12 2022 22:39 utc | 105

Here is an Asian perspective on this Russo-Euro-Empire tangle of late. Asian analysts see that Russia is sitting pretty, Euro is at a crossroad of having to decide whether to blindly follow the Empire to oblivion or to seek compromise with Russia, and Ukraine is out in the cold. And the Empire? The Empire is at loss of what next to do. They still talk tough (they don't how to talk otherwise), but they are seeing cracks at the foundation of their Dollar Hegemony, and they are seeing their work productivities tanking. They are, when alone, pulling their hair and calming their nerve.

Now that both talks with Empire and NATO came to dead ends, each parties rejecting the others' wimps and wishes, Russia is now free to execute what it wanted in the first place--take measures that it deems necessary to secure Russia, under the new geopolitical dynamics of the west having been foretold, have had discussions and dialogues, and have agreed to each persue their own courses of actions. NATO expansion to new Russian borders? Russia is free to take out new NATO military installments there, as both sides understand that's what the failed talks point to. Empire/EU using financial sanctions and economic punishments? Russia will flash its middle finger and apply its own counter measures: supply natural gas via Turkish Stream 1 & 2 (#2 being the one through the Balkans) to nations under long term contracts and freeze northern Europe during the coming harsh winter. We'll see gas prices in North Europe 6 to 10 times those of Balkan and South Europe. Romania is in a bind: follow the Empire in taking an anti-Russo stance, or cower to economic reality and quietly snuggle towards Mother Russia. It appears the Old Yugoslavia is seeing the sparks of revival.

Ukraine is asking Germany to compensate them as Germans compensated Israel, claiming the Germans having done the same damages in Ukraine as they did to the Jews. That argument is mocked to high heavens, as they were told that it was Russia who rescued and salvaged them from their total destruction at German hands, now they want Germany to help them destroy Russia? Asians hear the LOLs all the ways across the Indian and Pacific oceans.

Russia is now at ease, and peace. It can just carry on according to its own wimps. Its economy is pretty much independent of the west. They don't need SWIFT, nor anything EU manufactured that they themselves or China cannot make. With trade with China increasing at double digits for as far as one can see, they can be assured of 4%-5% GDP growth. It's the west that needs the east right now and has been for at least the past 5 years. Each passing year from now on they can just sit back, munch popcorns and watch inflation ravaging their enemies, political chaos inducing their enemies to make political mistakes one after other, and once a while flex their muscle to nip any development militarily that poses (in Russia's opinion, btw) a threat to its security, as by now bothside understand that's gonna be the case.

Meanwhile, the Beijing Winter Olympic is only three weeks away. We all heard that it's gonna be a great one. Russia is content to sit back and enjoy that event, deservedly so.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jan 12 2022 22:41 utc | 106

@100 "And for what reason? Is NATO a threat to Russia?"

It wasn't a serious threat until the Maidan coup. It's all about NATO expansion into Ukraine and especially their plans for Crimea. That was a step too far for Putin. And there are still people in the West hoping to get their hands on Crimea.

Posted by: dh | Jan 12 2022 22:42 utc | 107

Jacob's Ladder #52

Russia will have to do something pretty spectacular to make NATO pull back to its old borders or keep quiet take the punishment that the West has in store for it.

The East has many spectacular scenarios, some immediate and kinetic and some more permanent and dramatic. Take neutering the NED as an immediate declaration of a terrorist organisation. If that is one outcome from the Ukraine and now Kazakhstan events it will be a deep and painful result.

IMO it is a high probability. If NED and numerous NGO's that are utilised as entry points to set up terrorist covers becomes an accepted understanding among many nations then the west is severely constrained. Its freedom to infiltrate, organise and undermine is disrupted. I can see a plethora of nations that will be highly appreciative of a well designed strategy to shackle these NGO's to their professed objectives or gtfo.

There are plenty of kinetic opportunities well outside of Ukraine. As I see it the west is desperately trying to focus Russia on the Ukraine target ie: anything to destroy the UN based Minsk agreement. So why would you focus there when Ukraine government is hemorrhaging $$$ and so many other rich targets well away from that front line are available and present options that are severely disruptive of the wests tactics in much more strategic locations.

Because of the USA's belligerent interference throughout the planet there is an opportunity in almost every nation. Likely more than one.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 12 2022 22:46 utc | 108

Dear Uncle @ 107

Indeed, it's a smorgasbord of options. What I meant was - something that cannot be denied and passed over as an accident etc. that simultaneously convinces the West of the need to pack their stuff and go home without endangering Russia's survival. It's a tall order - as someone else noted earlier.

Posted by: Jacob's Ladder | Jan 12 2022 22:55 utc | 109

John Cleary @97--

That nations have a sovereign right to their own path, which is what the UN Charter declares but the Outlaw US Empire has inhibited/prevented since 1945.

actually @100--

It's really very simple. Russia is still a developing nation and requires peace for its development plans. Russia is also still demographically recovering from an utterly devastating 20th Century--Russia ought to have a population close to 300 million but has only half that due to the tragedies of the previous century. Furthermore, Russia has excellent historical evidence that the West is not to be trusted, and its demographic crisis is a direct result of the West's actions. Russia's been the target of a campaign designed to turn Russianness into the equivalent of being subhuman: England began the Russophobia march 170+ years ago, less than 40 years after Napoleon almost captured Moscow; that was followed by the Kaiser who saw the coming First World War as a war between the Slavs and Teutons for European dominance; then we had Hitler and his plans for complete extermination of all Russians--a person whose minions are now being upgraded to Heros by the Outlaw US Empire. The Outlaw US Empire has never obeyed the UN Charter it was responsible for creating, continuously violating it AND its own Constitution since October 22, 1945. Given what the Empire did after WW2 ended to prolong Naziism and its behavior ever since, what reasons do the Russians have for placing any trust in what the Outlaw US Empire's representatives say? And to make any comparison between Hitler and Putin is utterly immoral and just plain sick.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 12 2022 22:56 utc | 110

WJ #93

This seems like a significant exaggeration, but I am no expert. Anybody have a sense of what the real electronic warfare capacities of Russia are and whether Russia really could effectively shut down electronic communication over some section of Europe?

Why Europe?

To set off extreme fear and loathing just block military radio coms in Lebanon and Palestine. You will hear the bleating wailing screeching from the illegal occupier of Palestine echoing around the planet for a decade. It will be deafening in the USA Capitol Building.

Small is beautiful.

WJ #95 Has the whiff of more Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine propaganda about it.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 12 2022 23:02 utc | 111

karlof1 @ 109

I shouldn't be throwing out comments like confetti but thank you for that summary - true and poignant.

Posted by: Jacob's Ladder | Jan 12 2022 23:02 utc | 112

Oriental Voice @105--

A friendly tip on your word usage. Wimp is not the word you want to use; whim is the proper choice.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 12 2022 23:10 utc | 113

Professor Adam Tooze is known as an informed dispassionate and even-handed economist. Read his Substack below, for there is not a dull word in it.

Note that the West doesn't have any really good options here. Sanctions are likely to be ineffective, both because the West needs Russian petroleum and because Russia has largely de-dollarized and sits on massive and growing cash and gold reserves. At the same time, Ukraine is a kakistocracy by any reasonable definition, and without constant infusions to the tune of billions of dollars both from the IMF and from gas transit revenues from Russia, it would be in more pathetic shape than it already is. (And no, don't blame the war. Ukraine was a kleptocracy long before 2014, although the leadership since that time has been more corrupt and thievish than even Ukraine pre-2014 was used to.)

Even if a NATO military action could be won on behalf of the Ukrainian nationalists (and every wargame suggests that it can't), there is no such scenario that doesn't end in WWIII. So who here is ready to take a nuke on behalf the Nazis of Lvov?

At the same time, even though he has no good cards to play, Biden cannot be seen to climb down. In part this is because America is a declining power and therefore it cannot let its vassals start to get ideas. But the real problem is the fundamentally Third World nature of contemporary USA-ian politics.

If you have ever spent more than a few hours living in a Third World country and you were sort of paying attention during this time, you will note that politics in such a country is a zero-sum game. Anything that helps your opponents hurts you, and anything that helps you hurts your opponents. So even a policy that benefits the country as a whole must be bitterly be opposed, if your opponents are for it or it also benefits them. (War and the military seem to be the exception in the United States. Wars that in no way benefit the country enjoy unswerving bipartisan support, rising even to the status of sacred cows that must never be questioned.)

This means that if Biden calls for anything less than Total Victory, his opponents on Team R will pounce, calling for the fainting couch and rending their garments most piteously while wailing something about "appeasement", and insisting that Trump is the reincarnation of Winston Churchill who would have pushed The Button sooner and better. It doesn't help that Team D was doing the same thing to Trump a year or so ago, pushing wackadoodle conspiracy theories that were contradicted by all available facts and just about everything that the Trump maladministration did. So for Team R, the opportunity to call the other guy an appeaser and weakling acting on behalf of foreign powers is especially sweet.

Posted by: Feral Finster | Jan 12 2022 23:18 utc | 114

As some newcomers here are posting negative comments regarding President Kennedy's handling of the Cuban missiles crisis, I would refer them to a Saker post from Nov. 22,2021 - "In Memory of JFK: The First U.S. President to be Declared a Terrorist and Threat to National Security" by Cynthia Chung. It's a worthy essay in its entirety, but I will just quote the pertinent paragraphs:

...On June 28th, 1961, Kennedy wrote NSAM #55. This document changed the responsibility of defense during the Cold War from the CIA to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and would have (if seen through) drastically changed the course of the war in Vietnam. It would also have effectively removed the CIA from Cold War military operations and limited the CIA to its sole lawful responsibility, the collecting and coordination of intelligence.

By Oct 11th, 1963, NSAM #263, closely overseen by Kennedy[14], was released and outlined a policy decision “to withdraw 1,000 military personnel [from Vietnam] by the end of 1963” and further stated that “It should be possible to withdraw the bulk of U.S. personnel by 1965.” The Armed Forces newspaper Stars and Stripes had the headline U.S. TROOPS SEEN OUT OF VIET BY ’65...

Posted by: juliania | Jan 12 2022 23:19 utc | 115

karlof1 @112:


Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jan 12 2022 23:26 utc | 117

Finian Cunningham considers the circumstance here.

"The Western empire-builders are weakened and exposed in the eyes of their own populations and thus are disarmed politically to pursue confrontation. "

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 12 2022 23:26 utc | 118

Aah, thank you k. They just cannot help grandstanding can they?

Posted by: actually | Jan 12 2022 22:29 utc | 100

I am perplexed by your post. It reveals you to be something of a wordsmith, a sophisticated and skilled composer.

Yet you cannot see that by placing modern missile facilities just what, three hundred miles from the Kremlin, the United States is a direct threat to Russian sovereignty.

We Anglophones call this "Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining."

There is a reason the Cuban crisis has been cited here more than once as a precedent. On that occasion the Soviet Union sought to place modern missile facilities in Cuba. What followed is what is known as a "crisis".

For some reason the United States became upset at this Soviet intention to place modern missile facilities ONE THOUSAND MILES from the White House.

So I ask you in return.."So why exactly was the United States insecure?" Please explain.


Both voice a political nationalist contention that the former great power got a bad deal in the treaties after losses in WW I and Cold War respectively. Both are making claims to "historic" national lands.

These calumnies amongst your legions, are actually funny in a perverse sense.

You lot are absolutely desperate for Russia to invade, aren't you?
You desperately want to see yourselves as the good guys, don't you?
You desperately want to be the smart guy in the room, don't you?

Shame for you that VVP has had your number for a long time.

Posted by: John Cleary | Jan 12 2022 23:30 utc | 119

juliania #113

Thank you. Sad. So I guess if the CIA were to receive blow after blow after screwing up in Kazakhstan that would be a good beginning to the new year. I would like to see that.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 12 2022 23:33 utc | 120

According to Nestor Shufrich of Ukraine, Washington and Moskow have reached understanding that Ukraine "In principle, we understand that … first: Ukraine will never be a member of NATO, never at all.”

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jan 12 2022 23:35 utc | 121

An aspect that I don't see in this discussion is the economic one. NATO is a cash cow for the US (and other European arms suppliers). NATO expansion, or even 'partnership', increases the potential sales. For this to work politically there must be a credible enemy so that the subject populations will buy the argument that diverting needed funds to military expenditures is reasonable. I believe the Baltics are meeting the 2% goal (unlike Germany, etc who realize what a waste this is). So there are direct purchases of arms - often supported by funds from abroad - plus the economic benefit of hosting NATO troops/bases, etc, etc. Then there is the geopolitics of economic relations. Russia would like to trade with Europe - energy of course, but many other things as well. This is logistically easy and natural. The US policy toward both Russia and China is to hem in and hamper in any way possible trade, economic advancement, and technological advancement. Russian trade with Europe? Bad! The sanctions policy has been fairly effective in this regard (limiting trade with Europe). The series of 'happenings' (downing of MH17, various 'poisonings', etc) has made this effort politically palatable in Europe - despite the fact that it goes directly against their self interest. Some of the stipulations of the EU association agreement with Ukraine made trade with Russia difficult or unfavorable for Russia, and after the coup trade with Russia crashed. The idea was to harm Russia, not to help Ukraine in any way.

Being wedded to such policies essentially rules out treating Russia as non-threatening and a potential partner in anything of economic importance.

I think Russia still hopes that enough European politicians, understanding how stupid this all is, will raise effective objections and initiate a change of course. It is very economically damaging for Europe as a whole to treat Russia (or China for that matter) as an enemy. Perhaps Russia hopes that by precipitating a crisis they can let in a little light, and if they cannot then they are prepared to make the situation more painful for Europe.

Posted by: the pessimist | Jan 12 2022 23:42 utc | 122

>>>>>: Jacob's Ladder | Jan 12 2022 21:26 utc | 76

JFK was also responsible for the use of Agent Orange as a herbicide in Vietnam at the request of President Ngo Dinh Diem of South Vietnam where it was frequently used to destroy food crops to starve the Vietnamese out of the country side.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Jan 12 2022 23:52 utc | 123

China is following this Ukraine thing with Taiwan in mind, considering that the US has expressed "ironclad support" for both Ukraine & Taiwan. And what China is seeing is that if Russia invades Ukraine the "ironclad support" is only sanctions! . . .And Taiwan isn't even a country! . . . Thank you! (hsieh-hsieh in Chinese)

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 13 2022 0:11 utc | 124

There are suggestions that Putin will undertake some military action to stick it to Washington. I think it's already been taken and it was the recent foray into Kazakhstan. Could any country in NATO including the United States respond as comprehensively and quickly. Nah, so Putin has demonstrated to NATO what Russia is capable of, in and out in a few days, no quagmire possible.

Ukraine decides to increase the pressure on Putin by attacking DPR and LPR, Russia drops paratroopers to buttress DPR and LPR forces while main force moves by road to Donetsk and Luhansk, meanwhile battle hardened Russian air force destroys Ukrainian military resources. By the time Washington gets round to more sanctions, Russian forces are back at base in Russia.

BTW, could/would Ukraine resist? Artyom Lukin doesn't think so.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Jan 13 2022 0:12 utc | 125

Jack Kennedy in a June 1963 speech at American University proposed a whole new reset with the USSR, and paid the ultimate price for it at Dealey Plaza later that year.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 13 2022 0:21 utc | 126

re: Jacob's Ladder @96

I won't go on more about JFK after this post, but I will provide a quote from him that does address the issue of nuclear war between the US and Russia.

First, however, I take issue with your statement regarding his order to pull the troops from Vietnam: "I haven't seen a great deal about this in the literature (not that I'm an expert) and most historians seem to discount it." Sorry, that doesn't negate the fact that JFK signed off on this on Oct 5, 1963 and the White House issued the order on Oct. 11 (NSAM 263). The Cuban Missile Crisis had a profound effect on JFK and he clearly changed his views on many things during the last year of his life. Listen to the Commencement Address he gave on June 3, 1963 at American University He stated:

"I have, therefore, chosen this time and this place to discuss a topic on which ignorance too often abounds and the truth is too rarely perceived--yet it is the most important topic on earth: world peace.

What kind of peace do I mean? What kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world by American weapons of war. Not the peace of the grave or the security of the slave. I am talking about genuine peace, the kind of peace that makes life on earth worth living, the kind that enables men and nations to grow and to hope and to build a better life for their children--not merely peace for Americans but peace for all men and women--not merely peace in our time but peace for all time.

I speak of peace because of the new face of war. Total war makes no sense in an age when great powers can maintain large and relatively invulnerable nuclear forces and refuse to surrender without resort to those forces. It makes no sense in an age when a single nuclear weapon contains almost ten times the explosive force delivered by all the allied air forces in the Second World War. It makes no sense in an age when the deadly poisons produced by a nuclear exchange would be carried by wind and water and soil and seed to the far corners of the globe and to generations yet unborn. . .

Today, should total war ever break out again--no matter how--our two countries would become the primary targets. It is an ironic but accurate fact that the two strongest powers are the two in the most danger of devastation. All we have built, all we have worked for, would be destroyed in the first 24 hours.

To make clear our good faith and solemn convictions on the matter, I now declare that the United States does not propose to conduct nuclear tests in the atmosphere so long as other states do not do so. We will not be the first to resume. Such a declaration is no substitute for a formal binding treaty, but I hope it will help us achieve one. Nor would such a treaty be a substitute for disarmament, but I hope it will help us achieve it.."

His call for disarmament wasn't exactly well received by the Joint Chiefs et al . . .

Posted by: Steven Starr | Jan 13 2022 0:37 utc | 127

ome people keep trying to convince me - a newcomer - that Kennedy was going to withdraw US troops from Vietnam. This is not a topic that interests me a great deal. It is clear that he a) allowed the Bay of Pigs to proceed, b) formed the Green Berets (many being Eastern European Nazis) c) formed the reactionary Catholic Vietnam lobby, d) hugely increased the US meddling in Vietnam, e) almost started WWIII and the list goes on.

I don't have anything against Kennedy - Johnson was as bad but to laud this son of a Nazi supporter who made his name in Boston with his bloodcurdling threats against the Russians and communists in the name of his faith is over the top. He was partly responsible for making Diem a PM which resulted in a literal mini-genocide of the Buddhists and political opponents. It is here that Kennedy found himself between a rock and the hard place. He wanted Diem to stay in power and wanted to help him but the Republican (Protestant) side wanted the brothers out. He could have wanted to pull out a 1000 men for a dozen reasons - false reporting from Vietnam, to spite Cabot Lodge and the anti-Diem crowd, to replace them by a different contingent. Again, this pales in comparison with the 20-fold increase in fighting forces - it is a crucial upscaling. Johnson just had to do the same starting from Kennedy's end number to arrive at 400000 men in the same amount of time.

The removal of the CIA is interesting but the consequence was "search and destroy", "kill zones" and body counts throughout 1966 and 1967 - Julian Ewell, kill anything that moves strategy that caused untold suffering for the Vietnamese. CIA was brought back in 1967 to administer the Phoenix Program under Robert Komer and William Colby. Although disgustingly cruel, it was precision surgery compared with Westmoreland's fiery orgies of destruction.

So, I am not sure what any of this shows except a very keen intent to portray Kennedy as a peace-loving liberal, almost a left-winger. He wasn't, nor was he that special. The kerfuffle speaks more of a need of some decent Americans to have someone to cleave to - I would go for Roosevelt and Henry Wallace but they were too "nice" and almost traitorous in their high regard for the USSR. Not our JFK.

Posted by: Jacob's Ladder | Jan 13 2022 0:47 utc | 128

@88 Steven Starr

Adding to the list of reason for why the deep state killed JFK...The Bay of Pigs...that operation was supposed to have an "umbrella" of support provided by US military aviation and fire support from the Navy. JFK cancelled those elements of the operation leading the Bay of Pigs operation to wither on the vine...JFK's decision doomed the operation to failure, wiping out a powerful US covert asset in the process.

Searching "Bay of Pigs Umbrella Man" brings up some interesting results, and IMO solves the assassination riddle.

Posted by: Haassaan | Jan 13 2022 0:48 utc | 129

The pukes running the Empire...

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 12 2022 22:01 utc | 91

That's totally unfair - to emesis.

Posted by: farm ecologist | Jan 13 2022 0:51 utc | 130

Following its parent Empire's example, the Outlaw US Empire has made Russia into an enemy as the Empire continues its attempt to establish Full Spectrum Dominance over the planet and its people. Rightfully, Russia and China see that policy as beyond foolhardy, calling it delusional. Those fronting for those behind the curtain actually controlling the Empire are utterly worthless as they have no agency to do anything. This Russia knows. Apparently, the Kazakh trap wasn't enough to scare those faceless entities into altering their policy, so some other demonstration will be required. There remains one more meeting, the OSCE in Vienna tomorrow, but nothing will change there either, but Russia must go through the formality for it's a law-abiding nation, unlike its foes. Putin and other Russian diplomats have stated some sort of military technical action will occur if the talks end with an impasse as seems to be the case. Note that the Kazakh Trap wasn't said to be that demonstration, so one will occur at some point. Recall that Russia has already notified the world that such an event will happen, so we shouldn't expect any additional warning. The logical discourse we've performed points to the need for the demonstration to take place within the Outlaw US Empire's homeland, so we should anticipate that. All that remains is when. Putin will inform his public about the negative outcome and may provide a clue as to what will happen next. So, we wait and await. I do hope those faceless pukes at least love their children. Then we stand a chance of avoiding the worst possible outcome.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 13 2022 0:52 utc | 131

The US thinking tends to run along lines of what actions Russia might take that would not be too bad for the West, things the West could handle without anything changing its positions in any fundamental ways.

Meanwhile, Russia is likely to be asking the opposite question, what can it comfortably do that the West cannot handle, that would force fundamental changes in the situation at minimum cost to Russia.

The decision makers are inhabiting different worlds, asking entirely different questions. That is extremely dangerous.

Posted by: Mark Thomason | Jan 13 2022 0:53 utc | 132

Dear Steven @ 125

Thanks - I think we should end the discussion here. Kennedy was a controversial character who combined a rabid vendetta against Castro with peace feelers to the Soviets, increase in Vietnam commitment with phrases a la "Russians love their children too. Nobody has ever brought the world closer to a World War than Kennedy - is this in dispute?

Again, nothing in particular against him and yes, there were dark characters in play who wanted him dead - but the proof is in the Lyndon who simply continued his policies and (by contrast) delivered on some social promises.

I don't wish to derail the main thread. Thanks.

Posted by: Jacob's Ladder | Jan 13 2022 0:55 utc | 133

@123 One of the commenters on that article mentioned keyboard warriors (we have a few here too). If, big if, Russia does decide to get physical with Ukraine it will all be over very fast. Asov Battalion might put up a bit of a fight but if they're smart they'll just surrender.

Posted by: dh | Jan 13 2022 0:58 utc | 134

Dear Ghost Ship @ 121

Yes, I forgot Agent Orange (and God knows what else). Let's just say that JFK was a volatile personality and even if he harboured some peaceful instincts his first task as a Catholic was to demonstrate to the country that he is hard not only on words, but actions too. No doubt he felt bad about some stuff he'd done - but so did LBJ.

Posted by: Jacob's Ladder | Jan 13 2022 1:03 utc | 135

Dear Don Bacon @ 124

JFK's proposal for a reset is interesting and shouldn't be dismissed. It could testify to his gradual disenchantment with the Cold War milieu (McCarthyism) in which he cut his political teeth. It is also nice to think that a US president is capable of such grand gestures. Personally, I am sceptical but not too sceptical not to give it a benefit of a doubt.

Posted by: Jacob's Ladder | Jan 13 2022 1:08 utc | 136

Here, in great detail, are the sanctions USA proposes to impose on Russia if it 'invades' Ukraine:

.pdf file, the proposed Mendez bill:


IN GENERAL.—The President shall determinet, at such times as are required under subsection (b), whether—
(1) the Government of the Russian Federation,including through any of its proxies, is engaged in or knowingly supporting a significant escalation in hostilities or hostile action in or against Ukraine, compared to the level of hostilities or hostile action in or against Ukraine prior to December 1, 2021;
(2) if so, whether such escalation has the aim or effect of undermining, overthrowing, or dismantling the Government of Ukraine, occupying the territory of Ukraine, or interfering with the sovereignty or territorial integrity of Ukraine.

if the President makes a positive assessment the section on sanctions comes into play, which is a really comprehensive shut down of all financial messaging involving banks and designated businesses in Russia. It includes second and third parties.

Further, it provides for the withdrawal of all diplomatic VISAs for designated persons and government officials and businessmen US doesn't like, except for VISA to attend the UN. In other words, ending diplomatic relations (so-called) with Russia.

In effect, this is very similar to US efforts on overthrowing the government of Venezuela and Iran.

Presumably this is the genius 'masterplan' to overthrow the Russian Government, which is, of course, defined under International Law as an act of aggression.

Let us hope it is bluff and bluster (which seems likely, at this point).

Russia is a major power, and if the USA wants to destroy the US dollar, let it.As the Russian President observed, it "would be a colossal mistake".

However, the Russian military doctrine has room for a military response to an act that aims to destroy the existence of the Russian state.

Posted by: powerandpeople | Jan 13 2022 1:18 utc | 137

Jacob's Ladder @126--

The regard FDR and Henry Wallace had for the USSR was not even close to being traitorous. They were far more patriotic and loyal Americans compared to anything that's come leadership-wise since 1945--they actually cared about people like you and me instead of corporate profits.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 13 2022 1:19 utc | 138

Karlof1 @ 91 said;

"IMO, one thing is certain: The pukes running the Empire must be given a genuine scare to get them to change policy. That continues the reasoning behind only talking to the Top Dog as there's no use in dealing with the rest of the litter."

True, but then, I've always believed that the U$A's random shooters have always targeted the wrong people.

I suspect that nothing will disturb the world order as it's now constructed. The global alliance of Oligarchs will see to that.

Let the Kabuki continue, while our rulers get wealthier .....

Posted by: vetinLA | Jan 13 2022 1:22 utc | 139

Dear karlof1 @ 136

Indeed, you are absolutely right and I was being sarcastic because as soon as Roosevelt died (some say was killed), the USA started turning into the Fourth Reich.
Henry Wallace was influenced by the Russian mystic Nicholas Roerich and his popularity (especially in South America) insured his loss of the Democratic nomination in 1944 (engineered by three Irish Democrats).

For me, these two great men represented the best of America and their loss, as we can see could (and will) never be replaced.

Thank you.

Posted by: Jacob's Ladder | Jan 13 2022 1:38 utc | 140

^^^ NATO is a threat to the entire human population. If you don't understand that creating a lot of trigger-happy people and having them programmed to HATE isn't a recipe for disaster then I don't know what to tell you. There are many "leaders" who would be either bumped off (unfortunate accident - even the US has killed one of its own sitting presidents) or pushed to the side to make room for a Dr. Strangelove. Things hold together until they don't. Unlike points in time up till now, a mistake can turn global and mess up the human race perhaps permanently.

Posted by: Seer | Jan 13 2022 1:59 utc | 141

Sorry, my post was meant to address @100.

Posted by: Seer | Jan 13 2022 2:02 utc | 142

@60 Seer | Jan 12 2022 20:57 utc

Re: Col. Doug MacGregor

ex-Pentagon advisor, Col. Doug MacGregor, makes a whole lot of sense to me. An unusual pleasure to hear these words coming from a real American mouth. However, as he mentioned at one point, his was/is a minority voice. Interesting analysis of Trump policy failures as well.

His view that Russian action will begin around end-Jan early Feb is on the mark, imo. Most likely surgically accurate to offending infrastruture on the ground (Romania, Ukraine, etc).

If it comes to troop engagements then the logical conclusion is well explained by MacGregor -- the incorporation of the Russian speaking Ukraine east of the Dnieper River. West of that river was always a Catholic (not Orthodox) and an eastern province of old Polish/Austrian empires. Makes sense -- but as he points out, the tone in DC is emotional, not rational.

I'm sure (almost) everyone will give a quiet sigh of relief that the Russians will have finally stood up and acknowledged their phantom limb and Jungian shadow in the 'borderlands' and reset the European map back to some historically culturally-sensible boundaries.

Get ya popcorn ready.

Thanks for the link.

Posted by: imo | Jan 13 2022 2:09 utc | 143

This is greatly disturbing.

Obviously, no one in the United States "government" has read history. Because if they had, they would realize that they are following the exact same actions as other failed, doomed and obliterated nations. For instance; Nishapur.

It's true that the Mongols razed Nishapur down to the ground, and before that it was a big city. The Mongols razed down other big cities too, such as Samarkand, Herat, Bukhara etc. but they all were rebuilt under Mongol rule in a short time, only Nishapur never saw its former glory again, which allows us to make assumptions on level of destruction in Nishapur.

Razing down entire cities was a Mongol psychological warfare tactic, as mentioned above:

"If you surrender with your own consent, you will live your lives as free citizens of the Mongol Empire and we'll protect you as long as you keep paying your taxes. If you don't, then we'll butcher you and everyone you know, take your women and children as slaves, and burn your city down to ground".

Previous Turkic-Mongolic steppe empires/states also followed this rule (a sieging army asks the besieged to surrender three times.

If the besieged refuses, then in case of a victory, lives and property of the besieged is at sieging army's disposal, which means a sack of the city), however none of them used it as effectively as Mongols as a "siege instrument". Anyway, Nishapur was one of those first cities which refused to surrender.

While things have changed in the years since, one thing remains the same; arrogance. It is an undeniable belief that your army of 20,000 shining knights in armor can defeat 2 million ferocious battle trained Huns.

When Genghis Khan approached a city, he offered peace first. If rejected, he seized the city and erased it and the people from history.

That's what is going on RIGHT NOW.

Oh, we can parse weapons systems. We can discuss number of nuclear weapons. We can talk about 800 military bases around the world and all that. But there's something very strategically different about TODAY. China and Russia are working together. They have been able to uncloak the stealth American nuclear boomer submarines, stealth aircraft, and systems. They are able to disable all communication and targeting abilities, and they have weapons that can reduce the pitiful remains of the collapsed Collective West into rubble.

They do not want to do it.

But Jeeze-Louise, they will do so if nuclear weapons are ringing Asia. This is absolutely unacceptable.

As I said, this is frightening.

Posted by: Rufus Arrr | Jan 13 2022 2:32 utc | 144

Let me for the nth time repeat that none of this would have happened if Russia had gone into Ukranazistan in 2014, destroyed the Ukranazi coup regime, reinstalled, and withdrawn with the clear statement that if there were any more Maidans Russia would be back and this time to stay. I have said this over and over, been called a troll and worse, and that made no difference to the core fact: today's situation is a direct result of the biggest foreign policy blunder in post Soviet Russian history, bar none, and the fault lies squarely with the Greatest Geopolitical Grandmaster Genius the Galaxy Has Ever Seen, Vladimir Putin.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jan 13 2022 2:34 utc | 145

Reinstalled Yanukovych *

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jan 13 2022 2:34 utc | 146


You said...

The USA and NATO agreed to talks for one reason: The didn`t wanted to deliberately humiliate Russia.

They offered mutual de-escalation and arms-control. That would habe been the chance for Putin to publicly say: "See, I´m the greatest Russian statesman since Peter the Great! The maximalist demands were never meant to be taken litterally but just part of my brilliant negotiation strategy. What I achieved for Russia is de-escalation and arms-control, what I wanted to get all along. Mission accomplished!"

Instead now Russia will get nothing at all and the Russian ultimatum will be exposed for what it just had been all along: a bag of hot air.

Oh, I disagree.

In history, when Ginghis Khan would approach a nation; a walled city, they would offer them terms.

[1] First terms. The "White Tents". People can leave the city, and enter the white tents. They then can be citizenry of the Great Khan, and live as citizens.

However, if they refused, then they are asked again.

[2] Second terms. The "Red tents" are put up. Women and children (and most pets) were spared. All men and males over a certain age were killed.

If they still refused...

[3] Third terms. Black tents. All are killed. The city is destroyed. All records are destroyed. And in some cases rivers are diverted to flood the valley so that all histories of the city are obliterated.

No. What just happened is the First Terms. The United States and the Collective West are far too ignorant and stupid to see things as they are. They see things as they want them to be.

Second terms might be economic, or trade, or energy. But there will be second terms.

Let's all pray that third terms never materialize.

Don't believe me? Watch... Prove me wrong.

Posted by: Rufus Arrr | Jan 13 2022 2:43 utc | 147

Biswapriya Purkayast 143

You are fixated on Ukraine like the media prefers you to be and forget about Poland. Should Russia have invaded Poland in 2014 as well? But then there would have been a lot of other things to do in 2014 to create the buffer zone. Now Russia is far stronger and US is weaker.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2022 2:49 utc | 148

@119 Oriental Voice

The person quoted in the article is articulating some entirely reasonable fears within Ukraine government -- that some European NATO members see additional member countries as a source of trouble.
That's perfectly reasonable, considering the shameless kleptocrat oligarchs, nationalists, and history of in effect sabotaging what used to be an energy discount in relation to East Asia (that particular sabotage done with the gleeful encouragement of the US gov going to bat for domestic energy industry).

Last but not least, for Western Europeans, an Article V obligation to defend Ukraine becomes a hazard in light of increasingly frustrated efforts by US to hang on to global hegemony.

As is being pointed out now, a much more likely role for Ukraine, is as a NATO "partner". Meaning a sacrificial military function, maybe host an air base or missile base, but no Article V protection. This means no path any time soon for a level of EU integration provides an escape from IMF-enforced austerity, or screwage by kleptocrat oligarchs, or nationalists bankrolled by anyone willing to make a modest investment in some regional chaos.

Posted by: ptb | Jan 13 2022 2:56 utc | 149

@145 Genghiz Khan was certainly ruthless but it's not quite accurate to compare him to Putin. In fact the Kievan Russ suffered enormously under the Mongol yoke and it wasn't until Prince Dmitri defeated Mamai at the battle of Kulikovo Pole in 1380 that they finally shook it off. Western Europe should be grateful.

Posted by: dh | Jan 13 2022 3:09 utc | 150

Posted by: powerandpeople | Jan 13 2022 1:18 utc | 135

Menendez bill is a blueprint for WWIII, hopefully non-nuclear.

First, it commits to policy of admitting Ukraine to "stronger and more unified (??) NATO", and to accelerate the provision of arms and training to Ukrainian military, hence closing Russian red lines. Russia would probably enter Ukraine before the first batch of this accelerated program arrives, or earlier if hotheads among forces masses by Ukraine in and near trench lines of Donbass would engage in attacks or shelling.

Second, according to this bill, this would trigger sanctions making the trade of Russia with the West impractical. That would force Russia to conclude military cooperation with Iran and threaten to close Hormuz until all unjust sanctions (i.e. those not approved by UN) are dropped, and with no relief on that, indeed make such closure affecting all cargoes going to countries cooperating with American sanctions. At that point, countries interested in importing oil, natural gas, nitrogen fertilizers etc. would have to declare if they cooperate with those sanctions or not.

I mean, either the sanctions spelled out with somewhat obscure references to other acts, presumably like those that govern sanctions on Syria and Venezuela, are as harsh as the latter, or otherwise "sufficiently harsh", international trade will degenerate into exchange of blackmails and piracy (taking others' property by executive decree). 2022 is a year that starts with shortages of many raw materials, first, energy, second, metals, and coming soon, food (energy prices and calamities in USA knocked out a big part of fertilizers production, the only stock of fertilizers that has no overt claimers are Russian fertilizers probably promised to India. And now imagine that Russia controls Ukrainian agricultural exports too.

EU would survive OK, reducing heating to minimum and switching to vegetarian diet, but in countries like Egypt, joining sanctions would lead to food riots. Thermophiliacs and carnivores of Europe may revolt too.


I want to stress that this is a CONDITIONAL scenario. Cooler heads in Washington already lament that sanctions being assembled have huge blowback, most direct in Europe. As USA tries to bludgeon Russia, Iran and China to submission in the same time, and it is a year of commodity shortage that makes Russia stronger, and Russia + Iran becoming an invincible superpower if they unite for the occasion, it just makes too much sense for the countries on the receiving end of American blackmails to unite and retaliate.

That said, some lecturing will come first. On the other hand, this would be handled by numerous sections of Menendez bill that proclaim information warfare. Any mention of Russian demands or warning will be verboten (as Russian disinformation, or just put under the curse of silence).

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jan 13 2022 3:14 utc | 151

@143 Biswapriya Purkayast

That's an easy position to defend in hindsight, but among other things, the capitalist / oligarch interests who control things, on all the respective sides, weren't willing to take what they saw as a risk to business. NS1 was just completed in 2012, for instance. The anti-hegemonic alliance between Russia and China was not yet cemented by the genius of the Trump administration. And main powers in East Ukraine (nothing to do with Kiev) also didn't seem too keen on rearranging the map. Ever wonder why the coastal part of Donetsk never changed hands, for instance? It could have been done effortlessly otherwise.

Anyway, should the unfortunate event happen, of repeating 2014, there are fewer economic levers pointing to restraint. They'll probably try stringing out the false promise of NS2, but that's about it.

Posted by: ptb | Jan 13 2022 3:22 utc | 152

Clarifying my @135,

When I said the Russian military doctrine has room for response to "an act that aims to destroy the existence of the Russian State" I was referring to a military act, whether conventional or nuclear, not sanctions!

"I should note that our military doctrine says Russia reserves the right to use nuclear weapons solely in response to a nuclear attack, or an attack with other weapons of mass destruction against the country or its allies, or an act of aggression against us with the use of conventional weapons that threaten the very existence of the state. This all is very clear and specific."
- Vadimir Putin 1 March 2018/BLOCKQUOTE>

Posted by: powerandpeople | Jan 13 2022 3:42 utc | 153

re: the crook Senator Bob Menendez:
from wiki:

In April 2018, the United States Senate Select Committee on Ethics "severely admonished" Menendez in a letter,[188][189] writing:
The Committee has found that over a six-year period you knowingly and repeatedly accepted gifts of significant value from Dr. Melgen without obtaining required Committee approval, and that you failed to publicly disclose certain gifts as required by Senate Rule and federal law. Additionally, while accepting these gifts, you used your position as a Member of the Senate to advance Dr. Melgen’s personal and business interests. The Committee has determined that this conduct violated Senate Rules, federal law, and applicable standards of conduct. Accordingly, the Committee issues you this Public Letter of Admonition, and also directs you to repay the fair market value of all impermissible gifts not already repaid.[190]
Melgen also donated a substantial amount of money to Menendez's political campaigns, and prosecutors claim that $750,000 of those contributions were tied to personal benefits Menendez accepted. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 13 2022 3:44 utc | 154

re: Don Bacon | Jan 13 2022 3:44 utc | 152

The scum of the Earth seem to come out of New Jersey . . . Fauci, Biden, Menendez etc etc

Posted by: Steven Starr | Jan 13 2022 3:47 utc | 155

@ BP 143
Let me for the nth time repeat that none of this would have happened if Russia. . .
You are assuming that this will turn out badly for Russia, an assumption that you must admit could be false.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 13 2022 3:51 utc | 156

@ SS
The scum of the Earth seem to come out of New Jersey . . . Fauci, Biden, Menendez etc etc
Actually Biden is from PA then Delaware, and Fauci from NYC.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 13 2022 3:57 utc | 157

Here's a map of Ukraine showing only a very small part of mainland Ukraine (Russia already has Crimea) where Russian is the majority language. So Russia incorporating this small section of Ukraine, if that's what it does, wouldn't be a huge event.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 13 2022 4:13 utc | 158

re: Don Bacon | Jan 13 2022 3:57 utc | 155

mea culpa lol

Posted by: Steven Starr | Jan 13 2022 4:29 utc | 159

Don Bacon 156

Best to get a language map from 2014 or prior. You will see a massive difference. On my old computer I had a language map that I saved at the time of the MH17 shootdown.
Ukraine as such was only spoken in a tiny province, a larger area was pigeon Russian and then there was the Hungarian, Pole ect ethnic areas. Red for Russian covered all the eastern area and Crimea.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2022 4:36 utc | 160

@ Peter AU1 158
Anyhow, big or small, a Russian grab for Donbas would be (1) logical and (2) explain why Russia isn't making an issue of UN2202(2015) local determination.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 13 2022 4:44 utc | 161

I think it will be in syria, where the usa can’t claim article 5, since they are invaders. This allows russ to take off the gloves, and do something serious. I dont think it will involve usa deaths in purpose, but will allow for collateral . The hit will be to usa technology…air defence, aircraft in the air or on the ground. The shock will be how they penetrated usa tactical defences.

Posted by: James joseph | Jan 13 2022 4:55 utc | 162

@Don Bacon #156

That’s a bogus map based on bogus data. For example, even now, in 2022, most Kiev residents speak Russian.

Posted by: S | Jan 13 2022 4:57 utc | 163

@ James joseph | Jan 13 2022 4:55 utc | 160 with the salient scenario.

Nicely portrayed and where do I buy tickets?....grin

If they really can knock out/control/overdrive empire communication over a broad area and still maintain their own, that would be a significant event with enough duration for panic to set in but not long enough to set off the nukes...grin....I want to be a producer in this Wag the Dog shit show..../s

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jan 13 2022 5:29 utc | 164

"We will not allow anyone to slam closed NATO’s open door policy,” ... NATO is just a homeless shelter!

Posted by: Russell Stephens | Jan 13 2022 5:58 utc | 165

“What we have here Luke, is a failure of communication “

That is the line being put about by the Blinkered - State Department and its masters of the cfr and Chatham House in London , these great criminal masterminds that have long fancied themselves as having been the writers of History for ever... The story about the Anglo frontman Rhodes, always glosses over who exactly were his backers? How that poor son of not otherwise connected family, became such a great Imperialist of Africa. The dots go back to Cecil of the EIC and in between - the American States, Napoleon, ‘Wellington’...

But this isn’t the place to illustrate that rich and not so hidden history - the Owners of the World are PROUD and IMPLACABLE and HUBRIS is their name! ‘Meet Nemesis you entitled fuckers!’ Is where we are at.

The theatrical response by the frontmen and women of the disheveled imperial Caesars to the ultimatums was expected. The saving of face it offers by that supposed ‘standing up’ to the East/SCO was the sugar that would help the reality pill go down - “look we won, we stood upto their demands and we WON - but to be magnanimous we will teach Russian and Chinese throughout the ‘West’ to show how kind we are. “

The lines are clearly laid out. They have been crossed none stop trying to elicit a violent response. It’s like a great fighter allowing themselves to take many a body blow.

Shooting down Russian planes and not getting swift retribution is not what was expected. Oh oh.

The war gaming is long done.
The dice have been rolled.
What we are witnessing is the story being played out with NO CHOICE - resistance is futile. Whatever the nato proxies try and stir up - there is no appetite for the usual sacrificial imperialist salt of the earth types to actually march into a war against Russia - the Peoples know that Russians have never had intentions to do to Europe what the European Imperialists have been dreaming and trying to to Russia and Central Asia and the World island for centuries. As they did to the America’s, Asia and Africa.

What will happen sooner rather than later is the full TURNING of the tables.

When the WEST suddenly are the recipient of SANCTIONS by the EAST; when the frontmen and their overlords are NAMED and are put out as the Most Wanted. When their assets are sequestered! When their travel freely around the world is curtailed including their families.
And if they really really really want to be forced to physically be moved - there are weapons that will make their Super yachts disappear mysteriously; their mansions and bunkers deep inside their mega estates suddenly collapse - all out of sight of the general public.
Their PMC’s will suddenly be incinerated in all these spots where there supposed to be no western troops; no stories will come out ; Erik Prince will be wiped from memory and so will 10,000 head choppers - who have to be obliterated because they have been too deeply indoctrinated to ever be re-educated. The Nato powers who fostered them will be forced to do it themselves because the Russians and Chinese don’t want to clear that mess up and be turned into mass murderers.

I speculate that the dismemberment of Ukraine as long planned and acted upon by the Hegemony will be allowed by the SCO. Poland will get their piece. Russian regions will join Russia officially and the new border drawn there.
I also expect Turkey to remove itself from Nato and try and atone for its hand in the proxy wars of the last 20 years because they really believed they would be allowed to join the EU officially.
This will lead to the EU to tell the Yankees to Go Home and stop paying the MIC a two percent skim off the GNI’s of the unwilling military partnership that has seen the end of many a ‘defence’ local companies for useless over priced Yankee tat.
The MIC has already planned for this by leeching themselves into the ‘space race’ and Artemis and GND cover grab for the remaining world resources - all of which is going to fail to deliver any success because that would actually require the investment of that stream of $ billions & trillions they have planned to simply picket for the rest of this century.

And why bother when they can let the Chinese build it as usual, than rent it from them or hope to grab it in future decades - because that’s how they have done it forever.

So all of the current pantomime is not about communicating with us, serfs of the West - it is about the rising billions across the world who can no longer be subdued en masse.
Guess who is winning that war!

So just as Luke mockingly echoed back that opening line above, to that prison slave master governors the Russian/Chinese are showing the RoW - victims of Imperial designs, pillage, murder have done so in clearly PLAIN ENGLISH for not just many months but over the last decade - the prison is a failure and can not stop humanity from escaping the clutches of the decrepit and dead as a dodo Old Empire.

Communicate that!

Posted by: D.G. | Jan 13 2022 6:18 utc | 166

@uncle tungsten | Jan 12 2022 22:46 utc | 107

There are plenty of kinetic opportunities well outside of Ukraine. As I see it the west is desperately trying to focus Russia on the Ukraine target ie: anything to destroy the UN based Minsk agreement. So why would you focus there when Ukraine government is hemorrhaging $$$ and so many other rich targets well away from that front line are available and present options that are severely disruptive of the wests tactics in much more strategic locations.
That is a very good point, thank you.

Why should Russia escalate in their own back yard? Clearly they will not do that, so if something happens in Ukraine it will be started by the west. I agree with those (karlof1) who say the pressure must ultimately be increased on the US homeland itself, even if there are options elsewhere (Syria) that leave room for further pressure increase later.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 13 2022 6:39 utc | 167

Russia has announced it`s reaction:

"Grushko also alleged that the bloc is responsible for ending any and all cooperation with Russia on key common security issues such as the fight against terrorism, drug trafficking and piracy."

In other words: Russia will keep on trafficking headchoppers to Europe and will intensify it`s cyber warfare against the West. In addition Russia is going to engage into drug trafficking, probably through it`s Belarusian proxy. (Lukashenko has been floating this idea for a long time and the production and trafficking of narcotics is already the main economic activity of Syria.)

Posted by: m | Jan 13 2022 7:04 utc | 168

While I think there are plenty of serious non-kinetic escalation opportunities in the cyber and space domains, Russia has rolled new-technology tu-160 off the assembly line.

Posted by: too scents | Jan 13 2022 7:47 utc | 169

m #166

Sounds like you just got a pay rise. Or was the deal cash and one captagon a week?
Looks its payday mate.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 13 2022 8:08 utc | 170

m | 166

Russia will keep on trafficking headchoppers to Europe

Well, if those headchoppers are from Kazakhstan, that would mostly be a case of "Return to Sender".

Posted by: Kukulkan | Jan 13 2022 8:13 utc | 171

Norwegian #165

I agree with those (karlof1) who say the pressure must ultimately be increased on the US homeland itself, even if there are options elsewhere (Syria) that leave room for further pressure increase later.

I agree with that but US homeland is a flexible and scattered concept. That is why I think Hawaii or Occupied Palestine are possible. I can see the cat playing tirelessly with the freakout hysterics in the promised land just by testing or using tech jamming gear under the guise of an Idlib cleanout. Can you imaging the Karens in Kentucky wailing if they could not protect their ziocousins. The tub thumping evangelists in Utah would amplify the Karens in every church and street corner and televised revival.

The could be a Dr Hunter S Thompson rerun.

On a serious note I somehow doubt anything risky with manned vessels would be attempted. Drone subs for sure and maybe equipped with comms blackout devices. That would be a hoot.

Equally there are a number of South American nations that would love to host Russian or Kazakhstan workshop on NGO tracking, infiltrating and sterilising. I would love to see a published identikit of every USA and UK, NGO terrorist organiser in Kazakhstan.

Even if the conclusion of this entire non event comes to the Russians standing tall and saying gtfo of here, it will be worth it. The Iraqis are in the process of enforcing their gtfo demand.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 13 2022 8:25 utc | 172

Wow for this official Chinese article:

''The US knows this well. And it has been constantly stirring up unrest in neighbors of other big countries, while keeping stable the environment surrounding itself. ''

Posted by: Nick | Jan 13 2022 8:52 utc | 173

Wendy Sherman said, "Every country has sovereign right to choose its own path."

Sounds like she follows the "My-Body-My-Choice" school of international diplomacy. But while she claims freedom of choice for her friends, she avers that Russia is not free to choose how to do military exercises inside Russian borders. Looks like US leadership is stuffed full of clowns. LOL

But in all seriousness, the Russians are patiently humouring these 3 meetings just so they can say that at least they tried to talk sense into the US leadership. That is a carefully chosen position, not only in equity and justice, but in future relations with the other 7 billion people on Earth.

My guess is that the next moves will likely be NON-kinetic, and will include placing missiles within 5 minutes of Washington, the Pentagon, US war-making operations / command centres.

I further guess that the placements will NOT be Cuba or Venezuela (Russia is not the sort of nation that endangers others), but will be in the Atlantic and in the Artic.

If I am a betting man, I will favour the Artic, where Russia is supreme, and the US is just blowing bubbles.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Jan 13 2022 10:45 utc | 174

Russia is kinda stupid - as soon as Sherman got thru with the typical US BS, Russia should nailed her to the wall for Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela and all the others . And then they could have continued on with their agenda. If there is a next meetin , Russia needs to send someone that can deal with these Junk Yard Dogs from the West. Diplomacy is out of the question unless you have a representative that can kick some ass and flush out out the Liars, Thieves and Murderers. My 2 Rubles anyways.Spacibo MoA

Posted by: GMC | Jan 13 2022 11:45 utc | 175

"Deputy Foreign Minister of the Russian Federation Ryabkov on the possibility of deploying the military infrastructure of the Russian Federation in Cuba and Venezuela: I do not want to confirm or exclude anything"

Posted by: mikhas | Jan 13 2022 11:52 utc | 176

RE: Posted by b on January 12, 2022 at 17:52 UTC | Permalink

“With No Progress In Talks Russia Will Have To React”

That is the view of some of the opponents predicated on their “interpretation/attempted translation” of a notice of intent as a series of ultimata, and hopes based frustration and increasing being pissedness that they have been played again, and your notion that you understand the purposes of The Russian Federation in issuing a notice of intent and then meeting with their opponents.

Posted by: NotEuclid | Jan 13 2022 11:58 utc | 177

@135 Sanctions are suicidal for the US. We can start with something like 10-15% of US oil imports are from Russia. There is no spare global capacity since the US has already sanctioned two countries that could make up the difference in Iran and Venezuela. Taking a tenth of US oil off the market causes a huge spike in gas prices. This will then play all sorts of havoc on a rapidly inflating economy that is functionally in the tank already.

Sanctions are suicidal for the EU as they take all Russian gas off the table. Europeans freezes and their industries grind to a halt.

The second and third parties clause necessarily means Chinese companies would be sanctioned for trading with Russia. This ends all supply chains to the US and the EU. Total, complete collapse of every last country. Game over.

Then the only choice left is going to total global war or face the wrath of freezing and starving masses. Trying to shut Russia out of global trade is a literal suicide pact and completely, totally insane. That anyone is contemplating it is a sign of the level of delusion in the West. It is beyond me how this is talked about seriously and assumed to a legitimate response. These US Congress critters are literally telling me that they would rather end the world than continue to live in a world where the US isn't the unquestioned #1 nation.

That all said, I could totally see a cynical scenario wherein the US sanctions everything Russian except things critical for US infrastructure like oil. The could make a big public show about how tough they are sanctioning a bunch of things the US doesn't import or deal with anyway and then quietly continue to import oil. I suppose this level of cynicism is as likely as them being suicidal.

Posted by: Krungle | Jan 13 2022 11:58 utc | 178

Posted by: actually | Jan 12 2022 22:29 utc | 100

“But none of the Big Five want to give up their nukes. “

They were attempting to acknowledge something that was established and agreed privately by 1984, that nuclear weapons offensively are weapons of defence, but primarily weapons of blackmail facilitated by the belief of others that they are weapons of attack not restricted to defence.

Whether that will be the case de facto is another question, but like your question not one that they chose to address informed by the it's only words/shit's only turds observation.

Posted by: NotEuclid | Jan 13 2022 12:10 utc | 179

If the response needs to be kinetic I agree with others that Syria is the place. Given the history it would be quite appropo to drop the next attempted Israeli sortie. Then, they could light up the radar lock indicators on all aircraft in EU near their border. Other than the aircraft operators the world would cheer.

Posted by: Ralph Conner | Jan 13 2022 12:18 utc | 180

Ryabkov saw no reason for imminent new negotiations with the United States on security guarantees

I guess all there is left is "technical-military" measures. We'll find out soon enough.

Tonight interview with Lavrov on Rus. Channel 1, 22:30 Moscow time. As small preview Lavrov confirms that Russian will not cut gas to Europe and act as shamefully as Kiev did with Crimea blocking water.

Posted by: Paco | Jan 13 2022 12:23 utc | 181

Thanks Karloff and others on slapping down the lies about JFK, CMC, Vietnam and the arseholes of the praetorian mercenaries CIA - who not only oversaw the foreign policy of the US but crossed the rubicon with the public assassination of its elected president and took over the internal government of the US.
JFK was going to stroll to a great second term.
When that became a certainty- not only the conspiracy hit the Conspiracy Theory concept was deployed to both advertise and cover up that public execution - fully preserved on film to encourage les autres as Napoleon had it.

For what it’s worth - I don’t think the true ‘Greek’ tragedy of the dead Kennedy’s has been fully revealed yet. There are these still secret documents.

My money has long been on the ex Ambassador to Court of St James who was part of the US Nazi builders Imperialist crowd - the old bastard, their father, Joe himself who allowed the triggers to be pulled on both his younger sons. JFK was never supposed to be potus that role was for the elder son Jack - that’s what was promised to Joe as his Seat at the Table for his efforts in prewar build up on behalf of his masters. When Jack died prematurely - JFK was encouraged by his mad bad dad to take the ticket instead - knowing that the votes would be delivered as agreed in Chicago. The mad father thought the replacement son would be just as easy a puppet as his eldest was primed to be. RFK was a bit too young at the time although being groomed IMO future positions. Fortunately for the World the now eldest son who had become independent of thought because of war service saw the long imperial game that he was involved in and understood the nature of not only the uranium bomb but the Hydrogen and the filthy plutonium ones. The mostly demented generals , MIC and rapturists never really understood till later that MAD was already in place by the mid 50’s - chance of rolling into and over Russia was gone , again, militarily for the remainder of that century.

JFK had a young Galbraith, doing the assessment of the Indo China trap that was laid by the Ancient Imperialists who decided to sacrifice the French oversight and let the US ‘come to the rescue’ story ride again - even against the clear death of that dream in Korea by the new Chinese. The Dulles boys were spreading their wings as they did their Imperial duty and feeding lies to JFK daily. Galbraith told him the truth and how Dulles’s praetorians were dressing up in GI uniforms and deploying US logistics were running an army within the army. These were the ‘troops’ building up in IndoChina and working the Golden Triangle. For that centuries Opium war...

It will eventually be writ large - a Shakespearean tragedy will be performed - the Father who saw his 3 eldest sons in the grave, two by his own hand because they wouldn’t deliver his promise to the Ancients that he was a toerag for. Unlike other scions of other such servants of the mamon high temple and its Bloofmd Royals. The Bushes and Clinton’s - and others. The only Americans who still hilariously believe they are ‘republicans’ are the dumb rednecks and daily flag worshippers who fail to realise that the new royals were installed on that continent just as the ‘old’ European Royal houses had been installed over the centuries .

That old world order is finally resisted and all it is left with now is the big bad wolfs huffing and puffing promising to blow down all our houses which they believe are made of straw - but the Russians/Chinese have built with sturdier materials!

Just what are we going to do with the defeated tribe? Maybe transport them? Build a big wall around them so they feel they alone live in the world? Let them die out naturally over a generation or two whilst making sure any babies are removed to the real world... it’s more than what they have engineered for most of humanity over the centuries.

Right. Back to Doom Watching! Thanks for listening bar flies

Posted by: D.G. | Jan 13 2022 12:32 utc | 182

@174 mikhas Yep. I have been pointing out to anyone who is paying attention that this is the obvious logical move for the Russians to take.

Indeed, it is so obvious that even the most cursory of game-planning should have highlighted it.

Yet, apparently, nobody in Washington has contemplated it.
Which shows that nobody in "the West" understands game-theory.

A link to the quote is here:

The Russians ARE going to do this. Bet on it. Policy-wise it ticks all their boxes, and if the Americans howl - and they will, and loudly - then the Russians get a twofer: not only are the Americans exposed as amateurs, but by their very own words are also exposed as rank hypocrites.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Jan 13 2022 12:40 utc | 183

@Yeah, Right 181, @mikhas 174

Thanks for the link. I agree this would be a good first step. At the same time, I am pretty sure it will not be enough, and more steps will be necessary.

Why? Do we think the US gives to sh1ts about being exposed as amateurs or hypocrites? I think not.

Asymmetry is all very well, but Russia has enemy troops on its borders. Those threats will have to be neutralized also.

Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 13 2022 12:55 utc | 184

Maybe a US aircraft carrier will run aground, or collide with some other Navy vessel. Minimal casualties. Very visible to the public. Extremely embarrasing. Totally deniable.

Posted by: littlereddot | Jan 13 2022 12:57 utc | 185

The can of worms is exploding as we speak !

Craig Murray -

False flag terror attacks, agent provocateur operations. These are regular, everyday tools of security services everywhere.
As I have been trying patiently to explain to people these last eighteen years, since leaving the diplomatic service.

Quote Tweet
Josep Lluís Alay
· 11 Jan
Spanish former police chief admits that the Spanish secret services (CNI) were behind the jihadist attacks in Barcelona, August 2017. Their intention was ‘to scare Catalonia just before the independence referendum.’
16 people from various nationalities were killed.

There are assymetric and then there are full spectrum tactics - it seems the gears have been shifted.
What other great false flag crimes will spill daily now as the deadline approaches?
Technical Measures??

Posted by: D.G. | Jan 13 2022 13:02 utc | 186

anybody know much about the retired boxer turned Ukrainian politician, Vitali Klitschko? there is a fawning article about him by a guy who I suspect is an Atlantic Council/Integrity Initiative shill, which I suspect is another hit piece on Russia, but before I debate it--what are Klitschko's politics?

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jan 13 2022 14:15 utc | 187

@ DG JFK's second term was going to be Obama's second term. I would be surprised if Karlof1 supported that warmonger, but people have surprised me before.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jan 13 2022 14:17 utc | 188

just reading a smattering of posts on JFK "JFK proposed this" "JFK proposed that". yeah Obama had a lot of nice rhetoric, too. it was all bullshit. some people need heroes, if I wanted one I would nominate somebody like Henry Wallace. some people venerate the warmongers like Reagan, Bush2, Trump, Biden. I look at what they do, not what they say. Biden no doubt has said many fine things, depending on his script for the day, about the need to revamp the healthcare system in the US. all president's lie, some more than others. the ones that lie us into war or near nuclear holocausts are the worst.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jan 13 2022 14:24 utc | 189

Biden is taking the JFK road, the veneration for people like JFK makes his job in fomenting tensions a little bit easier. just like failing to prosecute Bush or Obama did.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jan 13 2022 14:26 utc | 190

@187 Don't know what he is doing these days but somebody thought it was a good idea to pose him with Joshua Wong and the White Helmets guy.

Posted by: dh | Jan 13 2022 14:51 utc | 191

@ 189

Thank you. If I had a bit of time, I'd write a paean to Henry Wallace, the greatest American president that could have been had he not been "neutralised" by the Russophobic Cold War "Democrats" (not to use another word).

Posted by: Jacob's Ladder | Jan 13 2022 14:54 utc | 192

@pretzelattack 187

This was in 2019: Ukraine court nullifies naming of streets for Nazi collaborators

But Kiev's mayor disagrees:

Mayor Vitaly Klitschko on Wednesday wrote on Facebook that the municipality will appeal the ruling, the Regnum news agency reported

Seems once a nazi, always a nazi.

Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 13 2022 15:16 utc | 193

@ 10

As to access to space, the US is downgrading its facilities in the name of privatization. Commercial systems will be designed for maximum profit rather than minimal utility, in the vein of defense contractors. So that's another trend line not necessarily in the Empire's favor.

Posted by: jhill | Jan 13 2022 15:38 utc | 194

@Don Bacon. I lived in Ukraine for many years. I never needed Ukrainian, except to read statute books. I used Russian on a daily basis, even in Lvov. Lots of Ukrainians cannot formulate a sentence in Ukrainian. I suppose there must be some Galician hillbillies that cannot do so in Russian, but I have never met one.

Posted by: Feral Finster | Jan 13 2022 15:52 utc | 195

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jan 13 2022 14:15 utc | 187

Not that I know a lot about the ex-boxer save for his goofy ways that have made a lot of people laugh, nothing strange considering the risks for the brain of his former profession. He was the EU hand picked guy, but since Vicky said what she said about the EU Klichko was given Kiev's mayorship while "Yats" as Vicky called Yatsenyuk -or Yaitsanyukh the scrotum smeller in informal Russian- became the big boss.

Curiously, you're using the German transliteration for his family name, a straight transliteration from Russian would be Klichko.

Posted by: Paco | Jan 13 2022 16:07 utc | 196

All those who talk about Russia using Cuba and Venezuela as launch path of the new rockets. Are not forgueting the Cubans and Venezuelans?

Posted by: Pablo D Rodriguez | Jan 13 2022 16:47 utc | 197

James joseph | Jan 13 2022 4:55 utc | 162
The shock you describe in Syria could be tactical and might well include:

- a countrywide US no fly zone,
- stopping the oil flow east by the US,
- preventing US resupply by road from Iraq so effectively, with the no fly zone, cutting them off,
- more SAMs for the SyAF,
- supporting the pursuit of attacking IAF aircraft over Lebanon and the Med

and finally but less lightly roll back the Turks in Idlib etc, after all they are still in NATO.

Imagine the howling in DC if their forces are stranded in Syria and effectively forced out, tail between legs by the Russians.

Posted by: JohninMK | Jan 13 2022 17:30 utc | 198

Iran has some suggestions

"The winning animation from the people in the "Hero" contest conducted by
@khamenei_ir on the topic of revenge on Trump, Pompeo and the murderers of Gen Qaseem Soleimani."


Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 13 2022 17:54 utc | 199

pretzelattack @188--

I stopped voting for D-Party POTUS candidates in 1992 when I voted for Perot. I worked for Nader in 2000. In November 1963, I had just turned 8 and was in second grade. In 1968, I passed out flyers for RFK's campaign and watched him die on live TV; I also saw Ruby kill Oswald. Those events are mostly responsible for my becoming an historian. In 8th grade, I read the Warran Commission Report; as an expert marksman at that time, I knew the Magic Bullet explanation was a lie, which made me question the explanations for RFK's murder. Growing up, there was no political indoctrination in my household; honest inquiry that held Truth as the highest value was stressed. In California, we watched Watts burn first, then most of the nation explode in 1968. The Police Riot in Chicago was very instructive. There was no political discussion about any of those events at home or at relative's, nor did I ask any questions. I just absorbed. Obama I saw as a charlatan, then a criminal far worse than Nixon. By 2001, I had the equivalent of a PhD in US History, a Minor in Economics, a Minor in Anthropology, a Minor in Geology, and an endorsement to teach English as a Second Language, and I chose to teach at the Community College I attended. During my studies, I'd discovered the National Security Archive at George Washington University and read and printed out all the documentation it had on Operation Northwoods; so, I well knew the template for 911 before it occurred. My students got to read those plans, and I linked them to the already well-known terrorist activities of US-sponsored Death Squads and to the domestic deaths caused by US Militarism as detailed in Killing Our Own.

So, there's some of my bio to give you an idea of my viewpoint. As for JFK, as I wrote above, we'll never know what he might have done since he wasn't allowed to proceed. We can guess based on his last behavioral direction, but that's not the same as knowing. IMO, it will forever remain a mystery.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 13 2022 17:59 utc | 200

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