British Government Laundered Fake U.S. 'Intelligence' On Ukraine
Washington Post via MSN - January 23 2022
U.K. accuses Russia of scheming to install a pro-Kremlin government in Ukraine
by Paul Sonne, John Hudson, Shane Harris
The British government on Saturday accused Russia of organizing a plot to install a pro-Moscow government in Ukraine, as the Kremlin masses troops and materiel near the Ukrainian border in what Western officials fear is an impending military assault on the neighboring nation.The U.K. Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office gave relatively little information about the intelligence unveiled Saturday other than to say that the Russian government was considering trying to make a Russia-leaning former member of Ukraine’s parliament, Yevhen Murayev, the country’s new leader.
“The information being released today shines a light on the extent of Russian activity designed to subvert Ukraine, and is an insight into Kremlin thinking,” U.K. Foreign Secretary Liz Truss said in a statement, calling on Russia to de-escalate and pursue a path of diplomacy.
“As the U.K. and our partners have said repeatedly, any Russian military incursion into Ukraine would be a massive strategic mistake with severe costs,” Truss said.
British authorities also said they had information showing how Russia’s intelligence services maintain links with numerous former Ukrainian politicians. Some of those former Ukrainian politicians are in contact with Russian intelligence officers planning the attack on Ukraine, the British government said.
Washington Post via MSN - January 29 2022
U.S. and allies debate the intelligence on how quickly Putin will order an invasion of Ukraine — or whether he will at all
by Shane Harris, John Hudson, Ellen Nakashima
Last week, British Foreign Secretary Liz Truss publicly accused Russia of organizing a plot to install a pro-Moscow government led by a former member of Ukraine’s parliament.The intelligence underlying that revelation, which also linked some former Ukrainian politicians to Russian intelligence officers involved in planning for an attack on Ukraine, was collected and declassified by the United States, according to multiple people familiar with the matter. The Biden administration asked the British government, which vetted the intelligence and was confident in its accuracy, to publicly expose the Russian plotting, the people said.
U.S. intelligence has assessed that Putin has underestimated how costly an invasion could be in Russian lives lost and in the devastating effects of sanctions on Russia’s economy, according to officials familiar with the information.
Intelligence analysts also have concluded that Putin is being misinformed by his own circle of advisers, who appear unwilling to confront him with the full consequences of military action.
Not only came the fake 'intelligence' from the U.S. instead of the UK, it was also totally sucked from a thumb. As is the alleged 'intelligence assessment' about a misinformed Putin.
If you want to know how an 'invasion' of Ukraine by Russia would look like read
Ukraine and Russian escalation dominance: A Fiction
at the Saker's site. Yes, it is a fiction. The 'rules of targeting' by Russia would realistically be less harsh than NATO's. But the time frame of a some five days long war, mostly by stand-off missiles, seems quite realistic to me.
Oh, by the way, for me as a German the best paragraph in the later WaPo piece is this one:
For its part, Germany also remains skeptical of an imminent Russian invasion. At this stage, Berlin sees no indication that Russia will move into Ukraine immediately, a senior German official said. Evidence that Moscow plans to act quickly may exist, but if the United States possesses it, it hasn’t shared it with the Germans, the official added.
U.S. 'intelligence'.
What a joke.
Posted by b on January 30, 2022 at 8:19 UTC | Permalink
next page »Thank you b for calling out the BS. Please don't be shy to include more of your opinions of the situation and thinking in Germany vis a vis the fake Ukrainian crisis.
On the subject of a coup in Ukraine: just because the intelligence provided by UKUS regarding the plot to change government there is BS does not mean that something like it couls not happen.
It would surely be a master judo counter move if Ze was made to ask Russians for help to stabilize the country.
However likely or not we think this is, it is NOT impossible.
Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 8:56 utc | 2
Ok, let's assume that the evil Ruskie "regime change plot" is real.
So what? The West did literally the same in the same country 8 years ago. Where's the problem?
Posted by: Midville | Jan 30 2022 9:12 utc | 3
Russiagate also started with warnings by British spooks in 2015, even before Steele started his dodgy dossier. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/13/british-spies-first-to-spot-trump-team-links-russia
German governments also play their part in whipping up anti-Russian hysteria but - unlike the Brits - there's a limit to how far they'll go.
Posted by: Brendan | Jan 30 2022 9:13 utc | 4
AngloMurican ZioMasons. Scheming Hand in Hand with Jewish Tribals, and Roman Catholics.
The World is not enough for them.
Posted by: IronForge | Jan 30 2022 9:18 utc | 5
So yea how about that glorious Canadian convoy?? Anyone still got a pulse and value people power up in here?
Posted by: Jezabeel | Jan 30 2022 9:54 utc | 6
It is not merely coincidence that Hollywood entertainment panders to comic book reality and attention spans have been whittled down to 140 characters or less.
Posted by: too scents | Jan 30 2022 9:57 utc | 7
@Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 8:56 utc | 2
It would surely be a master judo counter move if Ze was made to ask Russians for help to stabilize the country.One might even consider the 17 'intelligence' agencies spend their days reading MOA and came up with the idea that Russia is "organizing a plot to install a pro-Moscow government in Ukraine" that way. LOL
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 30 2022 10:11 utc | 8
@Jezabeel | Jan 30 2022 9:54 utc | 6
It is summed up in this image, but even more so in this video.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 30 2022 10:20 utc | 9
News that UK Foreign Secretary Liz Truss has been loudly promoting the narrative of an imminent Russian invasion of Ukraine around the world - she recently visited Australia on a private jet flight with UK Defence Secretary Ben Wallace and gave a speech at the neocon thinktank The Lowy Institute - is itself of interest as Truss has long had ambitions of being British Prime Minister (at least until BoJo the Klown became PM) herself. She has been fingered as having attended BoJo's lockdown parties (how many she is supposed to have attended, I do not know) which, if true, would be consistent with her character as a party girl fond of using taxpayer money to host lavish lunches with expensive booze at expensive private clubs.
Posted by: Jen | Jan 30 2022 10:33 utc | 10
A quote from Napoleon Bonapart :
In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.
Lizz Truss is the perfect example as are the “ intelligence “ agencies of the U.S.A. who pay the U.K. to gather information from them. The fact that the U.K. ‘ elites ‘ have a centuries old pathalogical bias/racism/bigotry against Russia doesn’t seem to stop them panting to made to look the fools they are.
Posted by: Beibdnn. | Jan 30 2022 10:34 utc | 11
"Intelligence analysts also have concluded that Putin is being misinformed by his own circle of advisers, who appear unwilling to confront him with the full consequences of military action."
Poor Vladimir Vladimirovich. Surrounded by lackeys that misinform the poor soul. Almost like what happens to his US counterpart. Imagine misinforming a former KGB officer. Quite a feat of those nasty advisors.
Posted by: Peter M | Jan 30 2022 10:44 utc | 12
The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from AfricaGW Bush State of the Union January 28, 2003
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Dossier
Posted by: John Cleary | Jan 30 2022 10:54 utc | 13
@John Cleary 13
Thank you for that quote. It is important not to forget how we get the same shit on different days. It is important to remember the 'real' (originally intended) meaning of certain words. In particular we should notice what the British government has done: it has 'learned'. Has it really? What has it learned if we now know it was a lie.
Same thing with the Russian invasion. Western governments are 'learning' (from the CIA and MI6) that the invasion is now, now and still now. But since we know there is no actual learning involved (it was a lie) we have to now assume all is lies: Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.
As ever greater protests are showing (in Canada and Europe) the people's minds have been saturated with fake news and outright lies. Distractions are not working anymore. The narratives (COVID, Ukraine invasion) have hit a reality wall because they are no longer limited to a few talking heads in the news. People's livelihoods are impacted directly. No amount of spin in going to convince you that you have bread on your table, if there is no bread on the table.
Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 11:34 utc | 14
Boris Johnson is about to be kicked out of office, quick send troops to Ukraine. Obviously none of his kids will be going.
Posted by: RZ | Jan 30 2022 11:47 utc | 15
@Norwegian 9
Thank you for those links. I am listening to Alexander Mercuris and Alex Christoforou recent live chat 'Reality-Canada trucker convoy v Fiction-Russia invasion of Ukraine' (https://theduran.locals.com/) and one commenter made an absolutely spot on suggestion: he said that the Canadian truckers and their fellow protesters should wear Yellow Vests (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_protests).
I agree.
Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 11:52 utc | 16
Yes indeed Bernhard. Remember, though, the proper pronunciation of the phrase "British Intelligence" requires a bit of gesture. The instructions are: While beginning to chuckle so hard that your eyes nearly squint into slits, you must simultaneously wet the tip of one of your pinkie fingers with your tongue and, with an effeminate mien, use the wet finger to smooth one eyebrow, then the other, wetting the pinkie as necessary, while pretending to hold a lady's miniature cosmetic-kit mirror with which to ascertain if your eyebrows are sufficiently smoothed and groomed with saliva. While chuckling and doing all this you must say, while visibly suppressing a belly laugh: Ah, yes, ... British Intelligence tells us .. ."
Posted by: Not Moriarty | Jan 30 2022 12:09 utc | 17
@Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 11:52 utc | 16
With or without using yellow vests, the protests in Canada seem to be of such great magnitude that they cannot be ignored. In fact I think it is a good idea to show that it is not a "fringe group" that wear yellow vests this time, it really seems to be a protest of ordinary people from all walks of life calling for unity in the country, rejecting tyranny.
In one of the videos (there are many now) I saw a massive banner on a bridge "Trudeau Must Go", which seems like a suitable message in light of the relentless "Assad Must Go" campaign he has been part of.
I agree Alexander Mercuris and Alex Christoforou provide unique information, the coverage of Ukraine included. Mercouris sometimes point to the fact that the focus on Ukraine is a western distraction from the main issue: Russias legitimate demands for security guarantees.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 30 2022 12:28 utc | 18
There is a posting up by Joe Lauria at Consortium News that says similar and ends with
"
The United States and Britain are trying to save a nation that says it does not need saving at the moment. And it is only Washington and London that have fully spun this story of war and are ready to bully anyone of consequence who challenges it.
"
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jan 30 2022 12:43 utc | 19
@ Jezabeel 6, Norwegian 9, Idiocrates 16
I see the truckers being used as pawns by political operatives looking to get around election financing laws (just like the Ukraine is being used to achieve goals that are not in the Ukrainians interests).
If the shelves at grocery stores become bare, they will make more enemies than allies. If it is a genuine protest, it needs to be linked to the general class struggle for a better world. The only stated goals I have read are to stop the vaccine mandates and to get rid of Trudeau. As to the former, Canadian truckers will not convince the Biden to end the mandates. As to the latter, replacing one inept/corrupt politician (e.g. Trudeau) with another (e.g. other federal party leaders) will not change the system.
Les Gilets jaunes (Yellow Vests) in France are a wide spectrum protest, a class struggle, against neoliberalism while Yellow Vests Canada is a Conservative-based (capital C Conservatives) protest against the Liberal Party/Justin Trudeau. I have not seen any efforts by the Canadian version to link up with other allies fighting against an unjust system.
To bring it back to the topic at hand, I saw the photos of everyone in Ottawa and it reminded me of the Maiden. It even included some dude waving a swastika flag (maybe Chrystia Freeland gave it to him!!!). All Canadian parties and media, including alternative media, are reading the same teleprompter concerning the threat of Russian invasion. I guess the only difference is that our pot is green instead of black.
"I got my truck and I don't give a fuck and I'm off to the [capital]"
Posted by: HCNorth | Jan 30 2022 12:50 utc | 20
@HCNorth | Jan 30 2022 12:50 utc | 20
To bring it back to the topic at hand, I saw the photos of everyone in Ottawa and it reminded me of the Maiden.I disagree with you on this an the other things you say. I was also reminded of something when I saw the photos and videos from Ottawa, it was Bucuresti 1989.
With the interference of Canada in Ukraine, these topics are related.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 30 2022 12:58 utc | 21
@Norwegian 18
the focus on Ukraine is a western distraction from the main issue: Russias legitimate demands for security guarantees
I agree, but it has another, perhaps even more important use as a distraction: it is to distract Western populations from the very reality represented by the Trucker Convoy and Yellow Vest protests.
Furthermore, I think that the COVID distraction/narrative, also serves this purpose: preemptive strike against nations and peoples before the financial, idealogical and military systems they aim to prop up hit the wall.
Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 13:01 utc | 22
@Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 13:01 utc | 22
Yes, I agree with that aspect also. There is now a big demonstration in Brussels (Live on YouTube).
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 30 2022 13:10 utc | 23
I see the truckers being used as pawns by political operatives looking to get around election financing laws (just like the Ukraine is being used to achieve goals that are not in the Ukrainians interests).If the shelves at grocery stores become bare, they will make more enemies than allies. If it is a genuine protest, it needs to be linked to the general class struggle for a better world.
It is hard to argue with the first statement - the elites (Trudeau etc) will undoubtably pitch one group of the people (Truckers) against another (office workers). That is a tactic used through history (divide and conquer).
The way to fight this is join these disparate groups in common cause. For that to work you have to ignore fake news and the torrent of lies.
That is why I liked the suggestion that Trucker protesters wear Yelow Vests. Even though details of grievances are different, the underlying principles and causes are common.
Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 13:11 utc | 24
Truss is quite an interesting character.
Her parents are dedicated socialists, and she has rebelled. When she first stood for election her father refused to have anything to do with it. He mother, well her mother did what mothers do, and supported her and campaigned..
But coming from that background she feels she has to prove herself a good Tory, that she can be just as mean as any born-to-the-manor type.
So don't expect any common sense at all.
Posted by: John Cleary | Jan 30 2022 13:12 utc | 25
Yes it would appear that the US and the UK are the two countries pushing for war with Russia, via Ukraine, the rest including the Ukrainian president Zelensky are hoping it doesn't come to that. The MSM in the UK is still pushing the Russians are ready to invade Ukraine trope.
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jan 30 2022 13:16 utc | 26
@ Idiocrates 24
I agree with you concerning the common cause but what is the common cause of the protestors? Most Canadians agree with the mask and vaccine mandates so this is not the common cause. I have spoken to people about this locally (Northern Ontario) and no one has said anything beyond the mandates or removing Trudeau (but not Ford who is responsible for the mask and vaccine mandates in Ontario). Changing the captain without plotting a new course will still sink the ship.
As for the Yellow Vest, that movement was hijacked in Canada by Conservatives. I would whole-heartedly support a protest movement that is genuinely fighting against the rentiers and their enablers but I do not see the current protests as being this movement.
Posted by: HCNorth | Jan 30 2022 13:47 utc | 27
@Posted by: Brendan | Jan 30 2022 9:13 utc | 4
Yes, it's Russiagate redux.
How many times can people fall for the same joke?
Here is the very latest "joke", but, alas, it is no joke:
CBC suggests Russia is behind the truckers protests.
https://twitter.com/WeAreCanProud/status/1487459774363054080
Posted by: librul | Jan 30 2022 13:49 utc | 28
Trudeau and his family are said to be hiding in an undisclosed location.
Posted by: Lysias | Jan 30 2022 13:51 utc | 29
@HCNorth 27
I agree with you concerning the common cause but what is the common cause of the protestors? Most Canadians agree with the mask and vaccine mandates so this is not the common cause.
I don't have an answer to your question. I am not in Canada and I do not believe what the MSM tell me. However, your statement is in danger of being a generalization based on no data i.e. its just your point of view. It is obvisous 'most Canadians' do not agree with the COVID narrative (masks, mandates etc) and the proof of that is, among other things, the very Trucker Convoy we are disussing.
What are you trying to say really? Are you tell us that black is white?
Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 13:52 utc | 30
@Lysias | Jan 30 2022 13:51 utc | 29
Trudeau and his family are said to be hiding in an undisclosed location.When you acquire COWARD-19 all you can do is hide.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 30 2022 13:56 utc | 31
Posted by: John Cleary | Jan 30 2022 10:54 utc | 13
My intuitive sense post 9/11 was that some entity behind the scenes was giving America enough rope to hang itself. A major concern in Europe in late 90s was the "American Hyperpower". Hyperpower was a word used by the French to distinguish it from a "Superpower". A Hyperpower was publicly deemed as a concern, although the message was couched in terms of "cultural influence".
It is taken for granted that the Crown and their colony Israel are faithful subordinates of Americans but everything in the respective histories of the parties involved would indicate otherwise (if only potentially) for sober minded (which did not include giddy Americans cum Imperial grandees post WWII).
UK appears the poodle that leads its "master", the one that makes public noises that "master" has to deal with, the one that always (always) is the vanguard of world affecting matters. Heck, didn't the Covid 19 non-peer reviewed papers all come from UK?
The dynamics of the competition between Finance and Energy have hugely influenced if not defined the world history.
"Who runs barter town?" The Energy guy with a captive Golem, or the Finance Queen with her entrenched servants throughout the world?
Who actually wants the US out of the game?
Posted by: naturalized | Jan 30 2022 14:14 utc | 32
@librul 28
CBC suggests Russia is behind the truckers protests
It is ridiculous. I am now starting to think that 'Blame Russia, Russia, Russia for everything' mantra is going to become the undoing of these narratives (COVID, Ukraine invasion and others). These people (who repeat it ad infinitum) and their controllers seem to have nothing else. I think that the population has reached a certain saturation point, repeating these lies is having diminishing returns. Soon enough it will have an effect opposite to the intended one.
One other aspect of this is: if the Russians are so powerful, meddling with everything, then how could sending 400 troops to Ukraine have any effect? Clearly this does not add up. I think the controllers at Davos and Wall Street are running out of ideas. This however makes them dangerous because they may do something stupid (think false flag) to make their fantasy a reality.
Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 14:23 utc | 33
@naturalized 32
I think you're onto something. I recently read (or listened to the audiobook version of) Tragedy and Hope 101. It lays out the evidence for the existance of what is called 'The Network' (for lack of a better term) which has its roots in Rhodes' and Milner's activities. The network was intimately involved in the creation of the Fed.
The reason I mention this in the context of your comment is that it is starting to look that their is trouble at the top. The network is not a homogeneous entity and just like cracks and divisions are appearing within NATO, there is growing discord among the factions of the big controllers: Davos on the one side and the Atlanticists on the other.
An interesting perspective on this is presented in the post and podcast at Tom Luongo's blog: https://tomluongo.me/2022/01/25/whos-afraid-of-jerome-powell
His podcast talk with Alex Kreiner is linked at the bottom of the post. Alex Kreiner's blog has an interesting series of articles on WWI and WWII and the controllers (The Network) on his blog: https://thenakedhedgie.com/2021/12/19/the-three-block-global-agenda-today-and-the-role-of-finance-part-3-of-3/
Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 14:38 utc | 34
Bill Browder doing the rounds on British Sunday Talk Shows ... the legislation on choking sanctions has been written and will be presented this week.
Neocons on the Thames - by Colman in 2005
Khodorkovsky - The Interpreter - Henry Jackson Society
It's curious how the Western's narrative over this matter has become so shambolic and yet they press on. I think some back-room deal is going on between Russia and Ukraine out of the sight of the Nazis and the Natostans. Both Ukraine and Russia seem relaxed compare to the Western and NATO war-mongers.
Posted by: Steve | Jan 30 2022 14:41 utc | 36
. . .from Reuters
Ukrainian politician mocks 'stupid' UK claims
KYIV, Jan 23 (Reuters) - Former Ukrainian lawmaker Yevhen Murayev derided British allegations that he could be installed as leader of a Kremlin puppet government in Kyiv, and told Reuters in an interview that he was considering legal action.
Britain's foreign ministry said on Sunday that Moscow was considering Murayev as a potential candidate to lead Ukraine if Russia launched an invasion, and said Russian intelligence officers were in contact with several other former Ukrainian politicians about planning an attack.
Russia blasted the allegations as "disinformation" while a Ukrainian official said it should be looked at seriously.
"This morning I already read in all the news publications this conspiracy theory: absolutely unproven, absolutely unfounded," Murayev said on a video call.
He denied having any contact with Russian intelligence officers and dismissed the idea that he could be in league with the Kremlin as "stupid", given he was placed under Russian sanctions in 2018. . .here
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 30 2022 14:50 utc | 37
@Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 14:23 utc | 33
"then how could sending 400 troops to Ukraine have any effect?"
It is theater.
Certainly there must be some endgame in mind, but wtf.
Reminds me of the Skripal show.
Belgium expelled **one** Russian diplomat.
This is over an incident that was purported to be about Russia sending agents to Britain
armed with enough bioweapon to kill 10,000 people or more.
If that is what it was actually and truly about the reaction would have been far, far greater.
**They showed their hand and told us what they really believed.**
Denmark expelled two diplomats.
The NYT praised Gina Haspel because she, as reported by the NYT, showed Donald Trump
pictures of hospitalized children and dead ducks.
"Dead ducks!!" Trump expelled 60 diplomats.
The UK expelled 23 diplomats.
"Russia agents come to Britain armed with enough bioweapon to kill 10,000 people or more."
France and Germany matched each others enthusiasm for the hoax by expelling 4 diplomats each.
Posted by: librul | Jan 30 2022 14:53 utc | 38
@ Jen 10
The Truss private jet flight link 404's, but there is this from Bloomberg:
Liz Truss Defends Chartered Australia Flight Which Reportedly Cost £500,000 . .Critics said the move was a “grotesque misuse” of public money. . .here
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 30 2022 15:01 utc | 39
Liz Truss in her speech to the US-friendly Lowy Institute in Oz:
"The Kremlin hasn’t learned the lessons of history. They dream of recreating the Soviet Union, or a kind of ‘Greater Russia’ carving up territory based on ethnicity, and language. They claim they want stability, while they work to threaten and destabilise others. We know what lies down that path, and the terrible toll in lives lost and human suffering it brings. That’s why we urge President Putin to desist and step back from Ukraine before he makes a massive strategic mistake." . .here
Which is to be expected from an incompetent foreign minister, who arrived recently after her stint as Minister for Women and Equalities.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 30 2022 15:12 utc | 40
@ Idiocrates 30
Support for vaccine mandates: https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/majority-of-canadians-support-vaccination-mandates
Support for mask mandates: https://globalnews.ca/news/7206572/coronavirus-mandatory-masks-poll-covid-19/amp/
These are the opinions of Canadians and not my own anecdotal evidence.
And, I never mentioned to COVID narrative but only the two specific items above.
What are you really trying to say
Please reread my previous comment concerning the class struggle. Without that linkage, it is just identity politics (focus on a single issue instead of systemic change).
Posted by: HCNorth | Jan 30 2022 15:46 utc | 41
News report: Boris Johnson warns Russia invasion of Ukraine would be ‘bloody business’
and so on cue. . .from Reuters
Russian buildup at Ukraine border includes blood for wounded, U.S. officials say
WASHINGTON/MOSCOW, Jan 28 (Reuters) - A Russian troop buildup along its border with Ukraine includes supplies of blood for the wounded, three U.S. officials told Reuters, a detail reinforcing U.S. comments that Russia "clearly" now has the capability to move on its neighbour.
The disclosure by the officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, adds to growing U.S. concern that Russia could be preparing for a new invasion of Ukraine as it has amassed more than 100,000 troops near its borders. . .here
and CNN
One of the officials who spoke with CNN cautioned that the presence of Russian blood supplies near the Ukrainian border is not an absolute indicator of an invasion. Instead, it is one element among many the US is monitoring as the build-up of Russian forces steadily proceeds. . .here
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 30 2022 15:50 utc | 42
From the people who gave us Saddam's weapons of mass destruction dossier.
Would anyone expect anything else different.
Including the media reporting everything as verified fact's.
Posted by: Jpc | Jan 30 2022 16:49 utc | 43
Shame on SNL for not taking the Ukraine situation seriously.
I particularly liked "Man if Germany doesn't want war you know we're in trouble." and "Neil Young to remove songs from Spotify unless Ukraine surrenders."
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/30/media/snl-cold-open-biden-ukraine-russia/index.html
Posted by: dh | Jan 30 2022 16:54 utc | 44
@ HCNorth 27 & 41
“Most Canadians agree with the mask and vaccine mandates so this is not the common cause. “
Bullshit. Canadian sheeple have been coerced by Castro jr.
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 30 2022 17:05 utc | 45
. . .deja vu involving Reuters. . .
Historical documents released by the Foreign Office shed new light on how a secretive team of British civil servants tried to influence the international media during the Cold War.
In one intriguing episode the UK government in the late 1960s persuaded the British-based news agency Reuters to set up a reporting service in the Middle East, funding it surreptitiously via the BBC.
This was contrived by the Information Research Department (IRD), a shadowy section created within the Foreign Office in 1948 to fight the propaganda battle with the Soviet Union. It covertly produced anti-communist material.
In 1969, Reuters agreed to establish a new office in the politically-volatile Middle East, at the secret request of the IRD. It would provide news copy in English and Arabic about local and world events, for reuse by newspapers and broadcasters in the region. . .here
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 30 2022 17:17 utc | 46
Reading Saker’s blog is fun in that it is great alternate reality fiction. Russia has a very strong military that has surpassed American capabilities in important areas, a feat which is amazing given the disparity in defense spending. But Putin and the Russian leadership do not have a “Will to Power” to use that military in the ways that Saker and hotheads on Russian TV news panels suggest.
Putin only makes fast, unexpected, big moves when his back is against the wall (like the imminent threat of losing the venerable Russian base at Sevastopol in 2014, or losing Russia’s only Middle Eastern client in Syria in 2015). Otherwise Putin is consistently measured, slow, reactive rather than escalatory.
I think the Russian ultimatums were either the unexpected trick themselves, to get America talking about “secondary” issues like missile placements which it refused to discuss in the recent past, or they could have been real ultimatums expected to be rejected, but with the counter escalatory moves being global (ie not in Europe), numerous and each relatively small, to prevent a break with the European market which Russia desperately needs as a counter balance to over reliance on China.
I’m thinking things like smallish military and economic agreements with Cuba and/or Venezuela (but nothing so provocative as placing hypersonic missiles), large arms sales to Iran (but not of the best, most threatening kit), quiet escalation in Syria against Turkey, Israel and the USA, a SWIFT alternative with China (but definitely no mutual defense treaty), and with Iran, Venezuela, and CIS states later invited to join, further Wagner moves in Africa, maybe elsewhere like Latin America and Myanmar, much more LNG (liquified natural gas) export capacity for Asia. Each of these moves will seem minor and even a kind of capitulation (given Russian escalatory capacity) when announced, but they will, when taken together, be very significant over the timeframe of half a decade.
Posted by: Sean | Jan 30 2022 17:17 utc | 47
@ Sun Tzu 45
Please provide evidence that it is bullshit.
Also, you are confusing communism with fascism. The one-party duopoly (Liberals and Conservatives in Canada) have the rentiers as their (pay)masters instead of the working class. Castro would never have gone along with the 'Russia will invade the Ukraine' narrative.
Posted by: HCNorth | Jan 30 2022 17:27 utc | 48
Posted by: Sean | Jan 30 2022 17:17 utc | 47
I think the basic idea is to force public debate; the best answer, and likely to be very effective given the many contradictions, falsities, and follies of the Western Media Narrative.
Lavrov gets his day in the sun.
Posted by: Bemildred | Jan 30 2022 17:33 utc | 49
@ Sean 47
“ quiet escalation in Syria against Turkey, Israel and the USA,”
The 6 Russian landing warships may go on to the Black Sea after dropping off some useful cargo in Tartus. I speculate that no one is expecting Bal / Bastion coastal defence launchers with anti ship Onyx. These systems will keep an eye on Aircraft carrier groups operating in Eastern Mediterranean.
https://www.businessinsider.com/base-in-syria-helps-russia-expand-presence-in-mediterranean-2019-9
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 30 2022 17:34 utc | 50
Posted by: Sean | Jan 30 2022 17:17 utc | 47
Agree with your assessment of Putin, conservative in the best sense. A minimalist, I have called him. Like any good chess player, he conserves his resources.
Posted by: Bemildred | Jan 30 2022 17:36 utc | 51
The Biden administration asked the British government ...
This is a standard ploy in regime change and warmongering propaganda. It would look suspicious if all the BS came from the same orifice, so they use other governments, think-tanks, etc.
Posted by: Keith McClary | Jan 30 2022 17:36 utc | 52
@50 Did they actually say "...Assad's government.."? Must be a typo.
Posted by: dh | Jan 30 2022 17:41 utc | 53
This is the crap media distortion going on in Ireland.
Courtesy of CNN!
https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/local-news/watch-cork-fishermen-appear-live-22920658
Posted by: Jpc | Jan 30 2022 17:50 utc | 54
@ HCNorth 48
With respect to your “majority of Canadians…..blah blah” you show your evidence first. The truckers in Ottawa are showing their evidence. I support them too as many other Canadians do. There are many of us who won’t take the experimental kill shot.
Show me any evidence that I am confusing communism with fascism which I didn’t mention even once. Castro jr is a totalitarian dictator like his biological father. Ford will have to make adjustments as he is coming under heavy pressure from businesses.
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 30 2022 18:01 utc | 55
https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/local-news/watch-cork-fishermen-appear-live-22920658
Posted by: Jpc | Jan 30 2022 17:50 utc | 54
Irish fishermen appear live, but in actuality they are puppets operated by Russians. After they visited Russian embassy, they form a 5-th column in Cork.
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jan 30 2022 18:26 utc | 56
@HCNorth 41
I would not believe a single poll from ipsos until they officially deny what their data implies (its sarcasm). In other words they are paid for. Take a look at the board of directors, especially the CEO Ben Page (https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/ben-page-chief-executive-ipsos-mori) who is connected to Shell, BAE systems, Sky TV and IBM. Wow, these are honest to god warmongers and fake news artists, who I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire. Belief is a beautiful thing my friend, but it is not evidence.
Your second linked article describes claims by a company called Narrative Research. Looking at the CEO Margaret Brigley's LinkedIn page I see another shill: government work, communications and a banker. Not someone I will believe has the wellfare of Canadians at heart, certainly not after reading their (NR) mission statement:
We generate meaningful and decision-ready information by analyzing what people think, say and do. We talk to people and help our clients make optimal decisions.
I've had enough of this BS...
Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 18:41 utc | 57
@librul 38
The NYT praised Gina Haspel because she, as reported by the NYT, showed Donald Trump
pictures of hospitalized children and dead ducks.
"Dead ducks!!" Trump expelled 60 diplomats.
That's precious, I hadn't heared that one before. The end game is kind of obvious: global dominance. The means: destroy all sovereignty in nations, by war preferably (lets you and him fight). The strategy: put little and useful idiots (Merkels, Trudeaus, Bettels, Arderns etc) in power who will do the controller's bidding. Who are the controllers? Well, that's also easy...just follow the money :-)
Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 19:08 utc | 58
@ Sun Tzu 55, Idiocrates 57
The two of you are stuck in the weeds of the minutiae of my post(s) instead of dealing with the main point: how is this protest linked to the general class struggle for systemic change? Until either of you respond to this, it will just be a back and forth that accomplishes nothing.
Posted by: HCNorth | Jan 30 2022 19:22 utc | 59
Trudeau and his family are said to be hiding in an undisclosed location.When you acquire COWARD-19 all you can do is hide.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 30 2022 13:56 utc | 31
TRUCK Trudeau!
Posted by: Sushi | Jan 30 2022 19:26 utc | 60
Bullshit. Canadian sheeple have been coerced by Castro jr.
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 30 2022 17:05 utc | 45
Agree.
There has been zero expression of alternate opinion, zero coverage of VAERS effects, zero coverage of the fact the VAX does not prevent transmission or infection, zero coverage of the UK terminating mask and VAX mandates, zero coverage of Israel and its increased hospitalization rates despite a high percentage of vaccination, zero coverage of the experience of Gaza Strip or Sweden, zero coverage of the evidence the VAX impairs normal immune system function, zero coverage of the potential lifetime VAX effects, zero coverage of the suppression of competing medical science, zero coverage of the fact that Trudeau's actions infringe the constitutional rights of Canadians.
Canada is a state of zero. The Truck Trudeau convoy is a positive response.
Posted by: Sushi | Jan 30 2022 19:58 utc | 61
Regarding the trucker protests in Canada (the Freedom Rally, which is actually a Free-dumb Rally), even if the Canadian government withdrew border restrictions for unvaccinated truckers, the US will not allow unvaccinated foreign truckers to cross the border anyway.
90% of Canadians (and truckers) are vaccinated. Meanwhile, what's happening in this protest (which is really only a few thousand people) is that Nazi and Confederate flags are flying all over the place, people are pissing and shitting out on the streets and alleys, homeless shelters get robbed of food, statues of actual real heroes get desecrated and tombs to the unknown soldier get parked on and danced on. $6 million has been raised on Go Fund Me to support these whackos, and they are getting support from the far-right groups. This has nothing to do with Putin or protest groups like the Yellow Vests, but someone is trying to stir things up, the question is who.
Posted by: Victor | Jan 30 2022 20:09 utc | 62
@ HCNorth 59
Truckers and non truckers in cities across Canada join in with one loud & clear message: Freedom from mandates and from government overreach.
https://youtu.be/N23pYH18xGs
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 30 2022 20:10 utc | 63
@HCNorth 59
The two of you are stuck in the weeds of the minutiae of my post(s) instead of dealing with the main point: how is this protest linked to the general class struggle for systemic change?
It was you who posted the 'evidence' that Canadians support the COVID narrative and it doesn't hold water. You can't have it both ways. Either your assumptions make sense and then we can discuss implications or they don't.
I am not sure if I see class struggle, I'm not in Canada.
To try answer to you question as best I can: the current protests are correct to establish a target that most agree on ie enough of COVID lies and Trudeau must go.
These are the necessary steps on the path to more systemic change. They are not sufficient. Whoever replaces the COWARD-19 Trudeau will have a shot at making some needed changes. Obviously, another shill is likely to replace him. Rinse and repeat.
...But you gotta start somewhere. If Canadians roll over and give up now, the road to change will be that much longer and bloodier.
Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 20:17 utc | 64
@ Sushi 61
That is exactly right plus the experimental gene therapy doesn’t work.
@ Victor 62
Are you regurgitating official propaganda? Where do you get the figure of 90% vaccinated? At most, there are 70-75% truckers and non truckers that are double vaccinated. But even this figure is in question because they have changed the definition. But if you don’t get a booster jab you are classified as unvaccinated.
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 30 2022 20:21 utc | 65
@ Victor 62
A few thousand protesters? Are you kidding yourself? An Ottawa police spokeswoman estimated the protest size as comparable to the crowds attending the annual Canada Day celebration on Parliament Hill (in spite of the -23°C reading on the thermometer). Moreover, if it was like you stated, a few thousand individuals, why was police brought from as far as Toronto and many other cities for crowd control?
With respect to your cowardly attempt to paint these patriotic Truckers with the Nazi flag, may I remind you that PM Castro jr supports the Nazis of the Stepan Bandera kind with snipers and trainers. How hypocritical of you!
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 30 2022 20:37 utc | 66
Sun Tzu @65
If you have evidence of different statistics, then please provide them. Otherwise you are just pushing conspiracy bs. 85-90% vaccinated are the official numbers and I have no reason to doubt it because that is similar to the proportion of people who I personally know who are vaccinated versus those who are not. Even if it's 75%, it still shows that the majority of Canadians support vaccination.
Posted by: Victor | Jan 30 2022 20:41 utc | 67
@Victor 67
“it still shows that the majority of Canadians support vaccination.”
Incorrect, it shows that many Canadians have been coerced to become human guinea pigs.
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 30 2022 20:48 utc | 68
@ Victor | Jan 30 2022 20:09 utc | 62 who wrote
"
what's happening in this protest (which is really only a few thousand people) is that Nazi and Confederate flags are flying all over the place, people are pissing and shitting out on the streets and alleys, homeless shelters get robbed of food, statues of actual real heroes get desecrated and tombs to the unknown soldier get parked on and danced on. $6 million has been raised on Go Fund Me to support these whackos, and they are getting support from the far-right groups. This has nothing to do with Putin or protest groups like the Yellow Vests, but someone is trying to stir things up, the question is who.
"
To start with you didn't put a question mark at the end so is all your comment rhetorical?
Your claim of only a few thousand people is proven to be wrong by the Canadien police themselves. Before Trudeau skipped out, the report was that there was only a couple of thousand truckers but I think the current report is in the 40-50K range.
What constitutes a proper complaint against government overreach? Your calling all who participate whacko's does not build your case.
Are you a drive by troll or do you have some substance to add to the MoA conversation?
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jan 30 2022 20:51 utc | 69
@Sun Tzu 66
Agreed. From what I saw in vids from Canada it looks like a cross section of society. That is encouraging. Painting the protesters as nazis or commies is exactly what COWARD-19 Trudeau wants, he called them the fringe.
@HCNorth 59
There is no more class struggle. They won. While you worked your ass off they milked it. Now the stakes are much higher. They will not hesitate to cull all of us useless eaters. The ones left behind will own 'NOTHING and be happy'.
It is important to realize that 'they' are not even hiding their plans, just listen to Klaus Schwab. He brags about having all these young leaders in play, doing his work. They are so arrogant that they are actually telling it to our faces: we are doing it and you (us) can't stop us.
We'll see...but in the meantime ich bin ein trucker!
Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 20:54 utc | 70
I saved links to comments from a certain barfly @lizard from last year's posts on covid. B was claiming that COVID was zoonotic in origin (i wonder what the thinking is now :-)
I remembered it coz it seemed OTT at the time, but now...I see he was right to call what is coming down the track a culling:
Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 21:09 utc | 71
Sun Tzu @ 66
I have been to Ottawa and to Parliament Hill many times and after looking at the arial photos I can tell you with certainty there are less than 5000 people protesting.
psychohistorian @ 69
Perhaps if you actually bothered to read what I wrote rather than acting like you are b's comment gate keeper and punctuation checker, you would have noticed that I mentioned nazi flags flying and war memorials being desecrated. If you are ok with that type of thing, then there is nothing more to be said.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/live-updates-day-2-of-trucker-protest-in-ottawa-1.5760432
Posted by: Victor | Jan 30 2022 21:28 utc | 72
Librul 38
Idiocrates 58
For all matters skripal visit johnhelmer.net
Not only were Gina Haspels dead ducks not connected to the skripals
(She lied and the pic was just a pic).
The question should have been…. If the bread fed to the ducks was toxic novichok, how were the children not affected?
Helmer continues to report the shenanigans around the inquest into alleged novichock death of Dawn Sturgess.
Mi6 is hoping enough time and enough subterfuge and the skripal novichok nonsense will be forever memory holed.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jan 30 2022 21:32 utc | 73
@ Victor 67
“ If you have evidence of different statistics, then please provide them. Otherwise you are just pushing conspiracy bs. 85-90% vaccinated are the official numbers and I have no reason to doubt it because that is similar to the proportion of people who I personally know who are vaccinated versus those who are not”
How about official figures from Health Canada?
https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccination-coverage/
Key updates This report was last updated on January 28, 2022 with data up to and including January 22, 2022.
Received at least 1 dose
Total population
83.75% (32,031,023)
5 years and older
88.08% (32,026,580)
5 to 11 years
53.17% (1,530,611)
Fully vaccinated
Total population
77.94% (29,806,915)
5 years and older
81.97% (29,804,959)
5 to 11 years
8.64% (248,643)
Fully vaccinated with an additional dose*
Total population
37.31% (10,863,502)
18 years and older
45.99% (10,842,902)
* Additional dose data for Quebec and Newfoundland and Labrador are not yet available.
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 30 2022 21:35 utc | 74
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 30 2022 20:48 utc | 68, etc.
Posted by: Idiocrates | Jan 30 2022 18:41 utc | 57, etc.
I don't know where you two are getting your "information", but consider this. In the federal election last September, there was one party that campaigned heavily on an anti-vax/anti-mask platform, the Peoples Party of Canada. They received slightly under 5% of the popular vote.
Now I suppose you're going to claim that PPC actually got ten times that many votes, but most of these were "not counted". Or maybe instead you could just admit that you don't have any idea what you're talking about...
Posted by: farm ecologist | Jan 30 2022 21:35 utc | 75
victor 72
I clicked on your link and get this.
"OTTAWA -- One day after thousands of truckers and supporters descended on Parliament Hill to protest vaccine mandates and other COVID-19 restrictions, many are returning on Sunday for a second rally."
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 30 2022 21:49 utc | 76
@ Sun Tzu 63
Freedom from mandates and government overreach will not bring about systemic change. It will simply rearrange the deck chairs on the sinking ship. I may be wrong, if so, please provide examples of how this will bring about systemic change? Or examples of how the protestors are linking their demands with others struggling for a better system.
@ Idiocrates 64
Let me give you a quick Canadian civics lesson: the provinces are responsible for health care in Canada; therefore, it would be Doug Ford's Progressive Conservatives who would be responsible for removing the mask and vaccine mandates in Ontario. Trudeau is only responsible for the cross-border mandate and it is done in conjunction with the American Government; therefore, getting the Canadian Government (Trudeau) to change policy will accomplish nothing unless the American Government also follows suit.
@ Idiocrates 70
As previously mentioned, if it is not a broad-based, class struggle, it will not change anything. I do not believe that the protestors are Nazis and even joked that it was probably Chrystia Freeland that gave out the flag(s). You continue to mention that the goal of the protest is to get rid of the mask and vaccine mandates but fail to note how this will change anything, how this will derail Klaus Schwab's plan. As you mentioned your ignorance of the Canadian situation, here is another lesson: Both sides of the one-party duopoly are in on his plan in Canada. The Liberals/Conservatives in Canada are like the Democrats/Republicans in the USA.
I want to see change and I know that Trudeau is a buffoon but I have not read/seen anything to convince me that this is not just another form of identity politics.
Posted by: HCNorth | Jan 30 2022 21:53 utc | 77
@ farm ecologist 75
“I don't know where you two are getting your "information"
I am sorry that you must be the only Canadian that doesn’t know what Health Canada is. Let me share the link again in case you missed it the first time
https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccination-coverage/
It says:
Fully vaccinated
Total population
77.94% (29,806,915)
Your partner, Victor, claimed it was 95% then retreated to 85-90% and like you called me out as Conspiracy theorist bs…
I stated that at most there are 70-75% and that is in question bc the next vax mandate may redefined fully vaccinated to include the third dose
Fully vaccinated with an additional dose*
Total population
37.31% (10,863,502)
Where are you getting your “information?”
With regards to the PPC, they never had a chance bc they can compete with the kind of fund raising & media exposure that Tories and Liberals can. However, you could say that the Conservatives lost bc they didn’t adopt the anti mandate platform they should.
O’Toole is paying attention and Ford will have to make a u turn.
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 30 2022 22:02 utc | 78
@ Victor 72
“I have been to Ottawa and to Parliament Hill many times and after looking at the arial photos I can tell you with certainty there are less than 5000 people protesting.”
And so have I, several times for Canada Day and to skate in the Rideau in winter. But, forgive me if I trust the police estimates (40-50k) more than your personal opinion which is ten times less. May I remind you that you have been wrong before with your % of fully vaccinated based on your empirical observation with friends and family? May I remind you of trying to smear the protest with Nazi accusations when PM Castro jr supports the real Nazis in Ukraine with snipers and trainers? Your credibility in this matter is non existent.
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 30 2022 22:14 utc | 79
Sun Tzu, you are twisting things...I never claimed 95% first but rather 90%(which is what the statistic for truckers) and I never claimed "fully" vaccinated ("If you have evidence of different statistics, then please provide them. Otherwise you are just pushing conspiracy bs. 85-90% vaccinated are the official numbers.") Oh my, so far off the official 84% one dose and 78% fully vaccinated. And 40-50 thousand crowds? Look at the picture in the article I posted...a few hundred people around the eternal flame and some people on the street. 50 thousand would fill the front lawn, especially since it's half blocked off for construction. But don't believe your lying eyes.
And I'm not smearing the protest with Nazi accusations because there are pictures and media accounts of this. Nazi flags flying at Canadian protests are just as wrong as Nazi flags flying in Ukraine. Again, don't believe your lying eyes...
Posted by: Victor | Jan 30 2022 22:48 utc | 80
@ Victor 80
Oh plz! You know the trucker mandate is for them to get fully vaxxed not half vaxxed otherwise they have to quarantine……so, no! You are twisting things but you were caught in your exaggerations and bullshit.
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 30 2022 23:05 utc | 81
“nothing is off the table.”
‘When asked whether the potential changes could allow British authorities to seize property from Russian nationals, Truss said that “nothing is off the table.” ‘
https://www.rt.com/russia/547781-uk-london-oligarch-property/
‘ “I want to be very clear: Nothing is off the table, everything is on the table,” von der Leyen said when asked directly if the EU would make sure the energy system is stopped from ever being used. She repeated the same line when also asked about SWIFT.’
https://www.rt.com/russia/547640-disconnected-swift-nordstream2-eurocrat/
Here we go again with another sound bite.
Posted by: D.G. | Jan 30 2022 23:07 utc | 82
D.G. Here we go again with another sound bite.
Nah, just another handful of shit is about to thrown at the fan. Just give it the 1-2-3 or whatever count. Anglosphere is cooking up sanctions and all Russian federation warships have left port. The mighty brit aircraft carrier has also left port to do battle with the evil ruskies. 2022 will be an interesting year
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 30 2022 23:31 utc | 83
Sun Tzu @ 81
What part of US regulations mandating that "only fully vaccinated" Canadian truckers will be allowed to cross into the US do you not understand? But go ahead and continue twisting words and supporting the Free-dumb Nazis in Canada.
Posted by: Victor | Jan 30 2022 23:34 utc | 84
@ DG 82
“nothing is off the table.”. .another sound bite
Yes, but we might welcome this change from Obama who repeatedly said, about various situations (including Ukraine), that 'Everything is on the Table.' He especially liked to repeat that nonsense about Iran. . .here. .The table rules!
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 30 2022 23:39 utc | 85
Victor claims: "....there are pictures and media accounts of this. Nazi flags flying at Canadian protests..."
Yes, there are millions of media accounts of this. As for pictures, after scouring the internet, it appears there is exactly ONE such picture. It is a close-up of flags, one of which is WWII era Nazi. There is nothing to tie the photo to the truckers protest, except: there is also a Canadian flag and there are a few people dressed as truckers passing behind the flags.(Wearing ski masks). There is also snow.
Posted by: Platero | Jan 30 2022 23:45 utc | 86
@ Victor 84
“What part of US regulations mandating that "only fully vaccinated" Canadian truckers will be allowed to cross into the US do you not understand?“
My mistake, I didn’t know the trucker protest against Canadian mandates was happening in the White House in D.C……I thought it was at Parliament Hill, Ottawa. /s
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 30 2022 23:53 utc | 87
Posted by: HCNorth | Jan 30 2022 15:46 utc | 41
I live in Ontario. The Ipsos poll you cite is dated August 19, 2021. The general context was that the covid cases were decreasing, most of us were double-vaxed by the end of July and we felt relieved in August. Notice how they talk of “post-Covid” world in the article. The view at the time was that you get a double dose and bingo! - all done for the rest of our lives. No more worries, we get our lives back now. 91% eligible Ontario population is vaxed (85% overall, after adding the ineligible)
But the sentiment is very different now from what it was in August. We have a huge Omicron wave and a huge pressure the get a booster. Research shows that the booster wanes from 75% to 30-50% efficacy after 10 weeks. There are far less takers than in the initial vax campaign (about are 48-50% jabbed with a 3rd dose so far).
For example Steven Del Duca (our provincial Liberal Party leader) proposed that a 3rd jab be added to the vax-pass; with 2 jabs you are no longer considered vaxed. On top of being denied access to restaurants and other entertainment, he proposed one be denied buying alcohol and marijuana.
Some of un-vaxed people already lost their job in November. Politicians now consider increasing the pool of “unvaxed” from 10% to 50%, just by adding 3rd dose in the pass. Who is to say that in 3 months from now they won’t add the 4th dose to the vax-pass? The 8th dose next year?
There is a point when one has to stop conflating vax-antivax debate with mandate/anti-mandate debate. Yes, probably 10% of population is and will be anti-vax; the vast majority is/was pro-vax. Government needs to accept that a fringe minority will never get vaxed and put up with it, instead of trying to persecute these people. If you are an anti-vaxer who wants to move out of Canada, and live in a country which does not mandate vaccines, you cannot because the un-vaxed is denied boarding a plane.
The public opinion surely shifted about the mandates; the govs refuses to acknowledge it and refuses to frame it in the terms that the population views it.
Here it is: this vaccine is not like your polio vaccine, which you took in childhood and are done for the rest of your life.
It looks more and more like a mandatory vaccine SUBSCRIPTION to be allowed to get going with your life and job (hopefully) for the next 3 – 6 months. Never before has this happened! Yes, we have an annual flu shot, but one doesn’t lose his job and his rights to free movement for skipping it. Let’s call a spade a spade: vaccine pass is vaccine apartheid.
If you keep conflating anti-vax with anti-mandate, be prepared to see this “fringe minority with unacceptable views” growing. People innately hate being coerced into medical procedures. After a while they stop conflating these two: most will probably remain pro-vax but anti-mandate.
Posted by: hairy | Jan 31 2022 0:09 utc | 88
@hairy 88
“91% eligible Ontario population is vaxed (85% overall, after adding the ineligible)”
Not according to Health Canada
“The cumulative percent of people fully vaccinated with a COVID-19 vaccine in Ontario was 78.03% as of January 22, 2022.”
“Yes, probably 10% of population is and will be anti-vax;”
More likely ~22% are anti-vax
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 31 2022 0:34 utc | 89
Sun Tzu @ 87
You are either too thick to understand that even if Canada had no cross border regulations, unvaccinated truckers would still not be allowed to cross the border because of US regulations; or you are a supporter of right wing troublemakers that include racists and nazis. Take your pick.
Posted by: Victor | Jan 31 2022 0:37 utc | 90
One can tell that when someone starts hurling ad hominem it is a sure sign that they have lost it and are angry.
The Canadian Covid mandates and the government overreach has to end. Enough said.
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 31 2022 0:46 utc | 91
Sun Tzu @ 91
You mean like one of your first responses to me?
"With respect to your cowardly attempt to paint these patriotic Truckers with the Nazi flag, may I remind you that PM Castro jr..."
So obviously you're thick...but you still might be a nazi apologist. And with that this conversation is over.
Posted by: Victor | Jan 31 2022 0:53 utc | 92
Is it alright if I post something about the Ukraine?
No?
OK.
I'll go over to the open thread then.
Posted by: John Cleary | Jan 31 2022 1:20 utc | 96
Posted by: Victor | Jan 30 2022 20:41 utc | 67
Even if it's 75%, it still shows that the majority of Canadians support vaccination.
The majority of Canadians had no choice. They were lied to by the state (Get VAXed or die), they were lied to by the state (VAX will stop infection and transmission), they were forced by the state against their will (No VAX no travel, no shopping, no internal passport), they were denied the provisions found in Section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I could go on but b prefers short comments.
Please rebut the following data from the UK which strongly suggests the VAX promotes infection and subsequent hospitalization.
https://dailysceptic.org/2022/01/29/vaccine-effectiveness-against-death-falls-to-zero-or-below-ukhsa-data-suggest/
Posted by: Sushi | Jan 31 2022 2:35 utc | 97
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 30 2022 22:02 utc | 78
Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jan 31 2022 0:34 utc | 89
Ok Sun Tzu! You posted from this source:
https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccination-coverage/
I got my numbers from the local TV news: CP24 and CityLine. If they lie, I just shared their lie, sorry! So, for the purpose of having a dialog, let’s go with your numbers. Not trying to prove at all that my numbers are right; they are inconsequential for the point I want to make. Counter-productive to enter a dispute about the % vaxed, because even if 22% are unvaxed, it still means that a vast majority is vaxed, no?
Perhaps, in order for you to notice the meat of my comment (that overall people hate being coerced and blackmailed into vaxing) you and I need the % of vaxed on their own accord, before the vax-passes was introduced in the fall. I don’t have this number. I am one of those vaxed on my own accord, before any mandates were introduced. And I never agreed that the government is entitled to mandate anyone’s vaxing.
We have various laws that mandate public behaviour; however there is a huge difference between one being mandated to NOT imbibe alcohol before driving a car, or not use impairing drugs during working hours; versus a law mandating a vax to be allowed to work, have fun or travel. One is coercing you to NOT ingest. The other coerces you to ingest. That is the only point I tried to make, in response to HCNorth | Jan 30 2022 15:46 utc | 41, where complains he cannot understand what do these protesters aim.
Posted by: hairy | Jan 31 2022 2:41 utc | 98
Am I witnessing the death of a blog, with all this OT crap?? . . I hope not.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 31 2022 3:16 utc | 99
Don Bacon | 99
Am I witnessing the death of a blog, with all this OT crap?? . . I hope not.
Enjoy it while it lasts. I expect b will come along directly and clear most of the off-topic Covid stuff out, throwing the comment numbering off. It's what he's done in previous threads and I don't expect this particular exchange is going to convince him to change that policy.
Posted by: Kukulkan | Jan 31 2022 3:33 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
Even these morons should be dimly aware that if Putin wanted to install a "Pro Russian president" in Kiev, all he'd have to do is just go on as he is now, and Zelensky would - in fact already is - be labelled a "Russian stooge".
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jan 30 2022 8:45 utc | 1