Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
January 03, 2022

Shall We Drop Calls Or Airplanes? - Airlines And Wireless Companies Fight Over 5G Activation

Over the weekend several thousand flights in the U.S. were canceled:

The holiday travel nightmare worsened on New Year's Day with more than 1,700 flights already cancelled for Sunday after more than 2,700 flights were cancelled Saturday due to poor weather conditions and the impacts of the Omicron variant of COVID-19.

The total number of cancelled flights since Christmas Eve now totals more than 14,000 - leaving thousands of Americans stranded over the holiday season.

Sunday's travel chaos stems from key airline hubs including Chicago and Denver, as well as certain airlines which have been left with staff shortages due to COVID.

In an effort to combat the travel disruptions, airlines say they are taking steps to reduce cancellations.

United has offered to pay pilots three times or more of their usual wages for picking up open flights through mid-January. Southwest and others have also raised premium pay for some workers.

Many more flights may get canceled after January 5. It will have nothing to do with Covid though, or with bad weather. It will rather be because of a fight between two U.S. government agencies and the client industries they serve.

Two years agon the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) auctioned off radio frequencies between 3.7 to 3.98 gigahertz for the use in 5G networks. Major telecoms paid a total of $78 billion to get access to these. They will start using them on January 5.

This is of serious concern for the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). Radar or radio altimeters in airplanes use frequencies between 4.2 and 4.4 gigahertz to determine the level of a plane above the ground. While they try to filter out neighboring frequencies to some degree they can be overwhelmed with false signals if these come at high power or were scatter around their frequencies through reflections.


Source: RTCA - bigger

The data from the altimeters is used in many automated alarms and systems especially in those that allow an airplane to operate in limited visual conditions during start and landing.


Source: FAA - bigger

The Aerospace Vehicle Systems Institute (AVSI) and the Radio Technical Commission for Aeronautics (RTCA) did independent evaluations and found that 5G base stations on the ground as well as 5G phones on a plane operating in the new frequencies may well overwhelm the radio altimeter filters and may lead to their misreporting of the distance to the ground.

When that happens the results can be deadly:

Turkish Airlines Flight 1951 was a passenger flight that crashed during landing at Amsterdam Schiphol Airport, the Netherlands, on 25 February 2009, resulting in the deaths of nine passengers and crew, including all three pilots.
...
The crash was caused primarily by the aircraft's automated reaction, which was triggered by a faulty radio altimeter. This caused the autothrottle to decrease the engine power to idle during approach. The crew noticed this too late to take appropriate action to increase the thrust and recover the aircraft before it stalled and crashed.

Aircraft builders like Airbus and Boeing and altimeter producers like Garmin have asked the FCC to limit the use on the 5G frequencies near to the altimeter frequency ranges.

The FCC said no:

Aviation industry concerns were detailed by AVSI in an October 2019 study. Garmin cited AVSI's research in an FCC filing this week, saying it showed altimeters "subjected to simulated 5G interference sources" output misleading data on a plane's height above the ground, and this incorrect data "would not be able to be detected by downstream safety-critical systems that enable safe operation of aircraft in all weather conditions."

The FCC found that AVSI's report "does not demonstrate that harmful interference would likely result under reasonable scenarios (or even reasonably 'foreseeable' scenarios to use the parlance of AVSI)."

For the FCC to do something one must prove that something harmful is likely to happen under reasonable scenarios.

That is a good approach when the potential harm is a dropped phone call.

But it is a bad approach when a potential harm is a dropped passenger airplane.

Dropped airplanes are what the FAA is concerned about.

To get something FAA certified ones must prove that any malfunction and the related harm is extremely unlikely to appear.

Or as the FAA writes in a recent Airworthiness Directive:

The FAA determined that, at this time, no information has been presented that shows radio altimeters are not susceptible to interference caused by C-Band emissions permitted in the United States.

The FCC and FAA approaches to potential harm are extremely different. The FCC says "show me that it happens" while the FAA says "show me that it can not happen."

Telecommunication lobbyists are engaged on the FCC side. The do not see the risk to the aviation industry. I find them to be quite dishonest:

Based on the modeling assumptions RTCA and AVSI are using, other systems, even in the absence of 5G, would be interfering with altimeters today. For example, Navy radar, such as the AN/SPN-43 radar, operates in mid-band frequencies at extremely high power with ground transmitters pointing at aircraft in geographical areas where U.S. planes operate. Such potential interference, however, has not been a problem in the real world.

The AN/SPN-43 is an S-band radar that operates between 3.5 and 3.7 gigahertz. That is much further away from the altimeter frequencies than the new 5G frequencies. There are also only few big ships with AN/SPN-43 radars around while there will be hundreds of powerful 5G base stations together with ten thousands of phones around airports and other densely populated areas. Will they and their beam steering antennas all work properly and keep to the right frequencies?

The FAA and the airline industry are unwilling to find out the hard way:

On December 23, 2021, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issued Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin (SAIB) AIR-21-18, alerting operators to the potential for severe restrictions in flight operations to ensure safety.

On December 7, 2021, the FAA issued a statement on 5G that includes an Airworthiness Directive (AD) intended to cover all transport category aircraft. The AD requires the following Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) revision that prohibits the following operations in the presence of possible 5G interference:

Figure 1 to paragraph (g)—AFM Revision     (Required by AD 2021-23-12)

Radio Altimeter Flight Restrictions 

When operating in U.S. airspace, the following operations requiring radio altimeter are prohibited in the presence of 5G C-Band wireless broadband interference as identified by NOTAM (NOTAMs will be issued to state the specific airports where the radio altimeter is unreliable due to the presence of 5G C-Band wireless broadband interference): 

  • Instrument Landing System (ILS) Instrument Approach Procedures (IAP) SA CAT I, SA CAT II, CAT II, and CAT III 
  • Required Navigation Performance (RNP) Procedures with Authorization Required (AR), RNP AR IAP 
  • Automatic Landing operations 
  • Manual Flight Control Guidance System operations to landing/head-up display (HUD) to touchdown operation 
  • Use of Enhanced Flight Vision System (EFVS) to touchdown under 14 CFR 91.176(a)

It is further anticipated that, depending on the aircraft, the FAA may restrict the use of other aircraft systems as well with additional ADs. The limitations imposed by the ADs protect operations by preventing the most critical hazards from occurring in the case of radar altimeter interference.

Since radar altimeter interference is location-specific, the AD restrictions will be “activated” by NOTAMs issued for specific geographic locations and times.

The FAA issued Safety Alert for Operators 21007 on 12/23/2021, which describes some of the other aircraft systems which may be affected by C-Band 5G interference on radar altimeters, and also contains examples of 5G interference NOTAMs.

Starting January 5 2022 the telecommunication providers will activate the new frequencies on their 5G base stations in 45 major cities. If there is even the slightest hint that these may interfere, as is expected, with any radio altimeter the FAA will block any night or restricted visibility traffic to and from the related airport.

Aviation lobbyists point to the potential harm:

For instance, if you are traveling I-495 across the American Legion Bridge between Virginia and Maryland, a large cellular tower can be seen within a few hundred yards of the river.

When the river is visible, it is the preferred flight path to Reagan National Airport, and is also favored by rotorcraft including the president’s helicopter.

When the river is not visible, like at night or in a rainstorm, pilots still use the same path to the airport but must rely on their radio altimeters to maintain proper altitude.

Hundreds of commercial flights fly over that cellular tower during a typical week, but if it starts generating the power output planned for 5G signals, the airworthiness directive would kick in, severely restricting pilot options.

Planes might need to divert to other airports, however all of the nearby options have their own potential 5G problems, so there could be some lengthy detours for passengers.

If any major hub is affected the chaos will be gigantic with thousands of flights getting canceled each day. The airlines would lose billions.

But the concern is valid not only around airports. Emergency helicopters land about everywhere and also use radio altimeters.

Over the last weekend U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg and Federal Aviation Administration chief Steve Dickson had asked the telecommunication providers  to delay all 5G activations on the new frequencies. They were rebuffed:

U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg and Federal Aviation Administration chief Steve Dickson had asked AT&T CEO John Stankey and Verizon CEO Hans Vestberg late Friday for a commercial deployment delay of no more than two weeks.

The wireless companies in a joint letter on Sunday said they would not deploy 5G around airports for six months but rejected any broader limitation on using C-Band spectrum. They said the Transportation Department proposal would be "an irresponsible abdication of the operating control required to deploy world-class and globally competitive communications networks."

The telcos point to France where 5G is restricted only around airports but not anywhere else. But 5G in France uses different frequencies and less powerful transmitters. Canada, which uses the same frequencies as the U.S., has restricted their use around airports.

When two big industries and their supporting government agencies collide with the potential of billions of losses on either side the fighting will get bitter.

The airlines now threaten to go to the courts to get an injunction against the use of the new frequencies.

I for one wish them good luck.

Posted by b on January 3, 2022 at 17:54 UTC | Permalink

Comments

Can the sickness of profit over human life get any clearer?

Thanks for the posting b
I am glad I am no longer a road warrior airline commuter like I was for a while.

Just because the UNSC put out a document saying that we won't kill each other for profit with nukes, it doesn't say we won't try to kill humanity in other ways if it is in the way of profit.

Why can't humanity argue/discuss/negotiate about what is the correct way to do something w/o profit being the number one priority by one or more sides at the table?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jan 3 2022 18:18 utc | 1

Maybe they're onto something?

wintereoak 5g

I find 5g to be a strange and frightening thing. But most new things scare me. I will be interested to see how it all works itself through the courts as b says.

2022 looks depressing. Yay.


Posted by: lex talionis | Jan 3 2022 18:18 utc | 2

crazy stuff.... thanks for the overview.... i hope they can work it out... seems like canada has found a simple solution.. will that be good enough?

Posted by: james | Jan 3 2022 18:18 utc | 3

Curious, one of the first places in the world to go full 5G (which totally look like Borg technology) is Daxing Airport back in 2019 which now services 20 million flights annually; if 5G really significantly disrupts air traffic, we would surely have noticed by now.

Posted by: Sid Victor Cattoni | Jan 3 2022 18:18 utc | 4

ditto @ 1 psychohistorians over riding concern.. the obsession with money and profit has to be taken down... it can't happen soon enough..

Posted by: james | Jan 3 2022 18:20 utc | 5

China has the most extensive 5G apparatus globally, so it would be logical to look at how it's dealt with this issue. To my knowledge, there's been no cut backs in airline services anywhere within China, nor have I read anything about this issue until now. However, it's easy to see how China's governing process would eliminate this sort of bureaucratic danger.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 3 2022 18:41 utc | 6

5G have been running in my neck of the woods (Hong Kong) for years and in China for even longer.

The only thing that seems to be freely falling from the sky have been bullshit from the politicians, MSM and utter dumbasses and flat earthers. We'll look back and see it as GSM/4G redux.

That said I wouldn't want to live next to a cell tower or hi power transmitter (of any sort).

Here my bullshit detector is going off the charts. Something else is going on and FAA is the waterboy.

FAA's "gold standard" is "somewhat tarnished" in its totally incompetent and compromised 737MAX episode. So excuse me if I'm not buying it.

More likely its something to do with the NSA's capacity in snooping and processing isn't yet ready for the magnitudal change in data transfer speeds. May be the back door hasn't been worked out yet, if the Israelis haven't came up with newer stingrays cell simulators to put around embassies... LoL

Chinese life expectancy just overtook US. May be 5G is good for health! /sarc

Posted by: A.L. | Jan 3 2022 18:45 utc | 7

This is of course one of those scenarios where a plane load of folk needs to die in a crash before anything meaningful is done, and even then it will only be completed under duress, its all too familiar, a child or adult has to die before traffic lights or traffic calming measures are put in place in an area where its been pointed out that an accident or fatality is likely to occur if nothing is put in place.

Why can't common sense just prevail, its as if the attitude is so what if planes crash due to this, we've made a bundle of cash selling the frequencies and that's all that matters.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jan 3 2022 18:47 utc | 8

Actually, the C band frequency range to be used for 5G in the US for 2022 is between 3.7 and 3.8 GHz, the same as used in France by Orange. In Japan, where up to 4.1 GHz has been used by 5G for over a year by Docomo, no issues have been reported.

As a matter of fact, neither Boeing nor Airbus have recommended grounding their aircraft in over 60 countries where 5G uses the C band. The FAA has not lifted the approval of flights between these countries and US either.

Rather, the only difference in the US is that there is a billionaire fund allocated to compensate satellite companies to relocate to another frequency band. This is probably why airplane makers and carriers are mum in the rest of the world, but noisy in the US.

Posted by: Augustine | Jan 3 2022 18:51 utc | 9

Also, the second last picture of the article shows the receive mask (or bandpass filter)...

I confess i didn't research this, it's late and its almost bedtime for me. So my comment below is purely from the article's contents.

Firstly its not to scale and can be easily misrepresented to mislead. Where's the actual output numbers on the vertical scale? -3dB guard band of 500MHz either side? Sheesh...

Secondly, the roll-off is, by today's standards, a lazy and wasteful implementation likely the result of legacy at a time when the only use of this spectrum were military and aviation. If this was a radio you'd be hearing EVERY station at the same time and then some.

If they are really concerned then it's easier and more optimal to insist on upgrading older altmeters as there are a lot less of them than people who will benefit from 5G. That is how progress is made.

Posted by: A.L. | Jan 3 2022 19:09 utc | 10

Augustine @ 9

Didn't know that. Thanks! May be you're onto something...

Posted by: A.L. | Jan 3 2022 19:10 utc | 11

Give me a freakin' break B. Your telling me the airlines never heard of 5G before last month!? No one ever thought to check with airlines, aircraft equipment manufacturers, the FAA regarding 5G?!

These same planes fly in countries with active 5G. What is different about USA?

I thought the reason for the airline staff shortages were because of walkouts due to the poison mandate. Now referred to as "Omnicron related" reason to hide the truth.

At the HIGHEST allowable power lever 5-G waves inhibit oxygen uptake of red blood cells, just as the mNRA also inhibit oxygen uptake (through a different mechanism). Together will allow quite a handy one-two punch (without) fingerprints as folks weaken, collapse and die due to lack of oxygen.

About one month ago, the USA activation of 5G was delayed for one month due to the ridiculous excuse that airlines were caught off-guard by 5G. What a laugh.

Posted by: Ripplewiggler | Jan 3 2022 19:52 utc | 12

But, but, but, 5G!!!

A civilization is only worth as much as its advancement in frivolous technology!

I am reminded of some posters of yore whose leitmotif was to let us all know in every one of their posts how China was already onto 6G. You could detect their sexual excitement over describing their new Huawei phones.

My point is not to discredit China or any other country that may or may not have superior technology. Rather, it is to point out the well-known fact that the Ancient Greeks were yet still more advanced then us, albeit where it matters, in spirit.

It seems that technology unmoored from spirit has little other purpose than to baffle the eldery and enslave the unwitting young.

I wake up every day and wonder what type of filter instagram has added to make my dog look like drag queen with fireworks popping in the background! (when I am able to wrestle him still and hold my phone up to his wet, black nose)

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jan 3 2022 20:05 utc | 13

"For the FCC to do something one must prove that something harmful is likely to happen under reasonable scenarios.

"The FAA determined that, at this time, no information has been presented that shows radio altimeters are not susceptible to interference caused by C-Band emissions permitted in the United States.

"The FCC and FAA approaches to potential harm are extremely different. The FCC says "show me that it happens" while the FAA says 'show me that it can not happen'."

I hold a General Class amateur radio operator's (Ham) license. All us hams are absolutely forbidden by the FCC to allow our equipment to interfere in any way in our neighbors' radio or TV reception. If we should do so, and if we persist in doing so, we can be heavily fined and/or lose our licenses.

Apparently, moderate to heavy falling aluminum is less serious than wavy lines appearing on "The Price is Right."

Posted by: AntiSpin | Jan 3 2022 20:07 utc | 14

Altimeter, Conspiracy and Fairy Tales...
Turkish Airlines Flight 1951 is just another B737 story.... Don't need to dig to much, just Wkped


On board were 128 passengers and seven crew members. The airplane crashed less than a [1]mile of the runway and broke into three pieces on impact, cockpit nearly intact . The wreckage did not catch fire.126 survivors and 9 fatalities.
Unfortunately [statistical discrepancy] the 3 [!..?] pilots are among the 9 victims.

The bodies of the three cockpit crew members were the last to be removed from the plane, around 20:00 that evening, because the cockpit had to be examined before it could be cut open to get to these crew members.Also, some of the survivors say that at least one of the pilots was alive after the crash.

Rescuers took 20 to 30 minutes to arrive at the site after the crash . Just ONE Mile to Schiphol.....


Following media speculation, a spokesperson for the prosecutor's office in Haarlem confirmed in April 2009 to Agence France-Presse that instructions were given following the crash to remove four Boeing laptops from the wreckage, and that the laptops were handed over to the US embassy in The Hague.
According to Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf, the Boeing employees on board were in possession of confidential military information.
Turkish media outlets Radikal and Sözcü also reported that the Boeing employees on board were in possession of confidential military information, and that the rescue response was delayed because American officials had specifically requested from Dutch authorities that no one was to approach the wreckage until after the confidential information was retrieved.

Posted by: MineHop | Jan 3 2022 20:12 utc | 15

The remedy is simple.

FAA and FCC "regulators" issue Emergency Use Authorization [EUAs] to do whatever they damn please and ordinary people be damned.

EUAs can only be used if there is no treatment available? Then ban hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin, etc! Easy peasy.

Oh...wait...that's not FAA or FCC. It's a different problem.

So, use a faux-fight between FAA and FCC to cover-up the secret, real problem...whatever that is. Use distraction to mis-direct ordinary people's attention.

Posted by: chu teh | Jan 3 2022 20:12 utc | 16

NemesisCalling @ 13

To countries that didn't have a developed copper network, this "frivolous" technology enabled billions to leap frog pass the copper age and queues at the village store to use their phone at exorbitant prices.

Freed from the tyranny of distance, families can now stay in touch. Kids can study things beyond what is offered in the local schools. Doctors can treat patients remotely.....

It's not all porn and instagram. Once in a while it helps to stand back a little bit and take in a wider view, it's not always about the 1st world and its problems.

Posted by: A.L. | Jan 3 2022 20:20 utc | 17

@17 A.L.

Read between the lines. Technology solves a lot of municipal problems, correct.

But there is a double-side to it. If the incessant pursuit of technology is not tempered with the why question then you land exactly where we are today: vaccine passports, threat of nuclear extinction, porn addiction, obesity rates, and, instead of caring doctors who have tough conversations with their patients about lifestyle choices, you get, "here's a prescription. See ya in a month."

Spirit is a real thing. But it can be obscured by the gleam of technology's mirage.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jan 3 2022 20:27 utc | 18

Yep, like guns kill people, people don't kill people. Got it.

May be the spirit as you say, should be people taking responsibility. Just because it's cheap it doesn't mean eating every twinky on the shelf. Stop labeling every vice as a medical condition when it's the spirit that's needs sorting out.

There are people who explore new frontiers and there are people who would rathar implore with their spirituality. They might disagree at times but neither are wrong in their frame of reference. History will tell.

Btw how did the Greeks do? /sarc :)

Posted by: A.L. | Jan 3 2022 20:54 utc | 19

ditto @ 1 psychohistorians over riding concern.. the obsession with money and profit has to be taken down... it can't happen soon enough..

Posted by: james | Jan 3 2022 18:20 utc | 5

Unfortunately the obsession with wealth and prestige will remain a fundamental mode of the human condition. It is up to the people to take back their governments from the corporate lobbyists and thereby de-elevate the profit motive from its position of primacy in all matters and regulate it. It won't be easy; there's lots of money on the line. Do the people have an appetite, or perhaps more importantly the time available to invest in such endeavors? With prices of everything rising beyond ridiculous levels (in USA avg. new car price =$46K, avg. used car price =$29K(!)) more and more people will be too busy trying to put food on the table and pay the electricity bill and less able to devote to political activism or even political knowledge.

If I know the captured US government like I think I do, it's going to take a plane crash - or - a VERY close call for them to listen to one of the few branches that is actually concerned about safety.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jan 3 2022 21:00 utc | 20

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jan 3 2022 20:05 utc | 13

Largely agree with you there. These new fangled mobile technologies are more often than not simply a revised version of the previous models/TxRx methods accompanied by an ad campaign and a new form factor. In cases like 5G+ it's so that people can watch 8K video on their friggin' phones; what other use for it is there?

We're filling up the landfills, putting toxic plastics into the oceans (and dumping them on China) and a lot of it comes from the electronics industry and their planned obsolescence programs where you "need" a new iPhone every year (and there are creditors willing to help!).

I know I've strayed from your original message, but I think it's all interrelated and part of the profit-as-the-highest-virtue or growth-for-growth's-sake mentalities (and mental illnesses) that are perpetrated on the masses by the corporation-captured government and equally often by the corporations themselves, directly.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jan 3 2022 21:12 utc | 21

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 3 2022 18:41 utc | 6

China uses mostly lower and mid-range bands, which would not affect the frequencies the aircraft instruments use.

Posted by: One Too Many | Jan 3 2022 21:31 utc | 22

Nothing ever is done until the horse is out of the barn.

Remember a parent complaining one time at a town meeting that a particular
intersection was dangerous and needed traffic lights. The parent complained
that the school bus stop for his kid and many others was right there at the
dangerous intersection. The parent had been told by City Hall that we haven't
had any deaths at that intersection yet, so that equals safe.

Nothing ever is done until the horse is out of the barn.

Posted by: librul | Jan 3 2022 21:36 utc | 23

This is frightening stuff. I would like to see Australia's multi talented Dick Smith's take on this important issue.https://dicksmithaviation.com.au

Dick Smith is never afraid to take on authorities or vested interests including Australia's Civil Aviation Authority and Multi National conglomerates and back his fight with his own money.

Where is Gordog ?

I'm glad librul is still at the bar.

Posted by: Paul | Jan 3 2022 21:55 utc | 24

@ Tom_Q_Collins | Jan 3 2022 21:12 utc | 21
" that are perpetrated on the masses by the corporation-captured government and equally often by the corporations themselves, directly."

Your're missing the forest for the trees. 5-G and above is required for IoT, including our fancy new 'brain chip' that the WEF is prattling on about in their "Great Reset" into transhumanism.

These technological mind and machine controlling methods are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. Many (human) citizens are fighting back by destroying the infrastructure, (towers, transmitters).

Elon Musk's low orbit satellites are out of reach.

Posted by: Ripplewiggler | Jan 3 2022 23:00 utc | 25

@ Tom_Q_Collins | Jan 3 2022 21:00 utc | 20... thanks tom.. i know this is going to be an uphill battle and will take time... but addressing the number one problem is still a good idea.. cheers james

Posted by: james | Jan 3 2022 23:20 utc | 26

Sorry Sid Victor Cattoni the Chinese airport refers to the 20 million as "trips" which equates to individuals traveling. Twenty million flights annually is equivalent to 54794.5 flights per day, or 2283 flights per hour, or 38 flights per minute. Not possible.

Posted by: arrow | Jan 4 2022 0:32 utc | 27

Color me a cynic, but 5G is just going to super-charge people's cell phone based time wasting activities.

Posted by: ian | Jan 4 2022 0:59 utc | 28

I'm with A.L. on this one.   This pissing contest isn't just between the two federal regulatory agencies.   The FAA knew a long time ago about this and now they're raising a stink about it?   These agencies are just waterboys for their benefactors (i.e. industries).   It's clear who's backing the FCC but I wonder who's backing the FAA in this fight.

If past behavior is anything to go by, nothing will be done about it until significant number of people are negatively affected.

Posted by: Ian2 | Jan 4 2022 1:33 utc | 29


Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 3 2022 18:41 utc | 6
China has the most extensive 5G apparatus globally, so it would be logical to look at how it's dealt with this issue. To my knowledge, there's been no cut backs in airline services anywhere within China

China uses 5G equipment from Huawei.
The US has banned equipment known not to interfere with airline altimeters.

Posted by: Sushi | Jan 4 2022 1:56 utc | 30

@28 ian

that's what pays for it initially... but the dream is IOT. Alexa in every cobblestone! Every carton of eggs! Every fiber of every toilet brush!

Optimizing your profile and generating 100x the value of a 4G customer!!!

Posted by: ptb | Jan 4 2022 2:39 utc | 31

The Turkish Airlines crash reminds me of the 737MAX MCAS debacle. There is an episode of Mayday/Air Crash Investigation about it (S10E6 'Who's in Control?') if anyone has streaming access to the series, used to be available on YouTube but either geoblocked where I am or scrubbed for copyright. If I remember correctly the radio altimeter was faulty for the whole flight, the last crew had noted the problem and informed the flight crew. The autothrottle function to reduce engine power to idle during the landing flare was fed by a single source (the radio altimeter) and was not 'smart' enough to detect that the radio altimeter reading contradicted the other instruments and had read -10 feet throughout the flight. Of course the blame was put on the pilots (the 1st Officer was in training and being observed by an instructor, hence 3 pilots).

Posted by: S.P. Korolev | Jan 4 2022 2:48 utc | 32

How has China solved that problem?

Posted by: m | Jan 4 2022 4:49 utc | 33

Posted by: m | Jan 4 2022 4:49 utc | 33

By not deploying 5G on frequency bands that risk impeding on domestic civilian or military aircraft communications/telemetry frequencies. Indeed years ago as 5G deployment was in its initial ramp up, I recall articles already calling this out as a practical competitive disadvantage for a US 5G rollout versus a Chinese one; that 5G in the US would have to contend with a frequency band “marketplace” already largely reserved by existing system-critical stakeholders. It appears those practical complications are now unfolding.

Posted by: J D | Jan 4 2022 5:12 utc | 34

"United has offered to pay pilots three times or more of their usual wages for picking up open flights through mid-January."

Looks like job-sharing is a lucrative strategy!

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Jan 4 2022 5:47 utc | 35

"Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro was taken to the hospital early Monday morning for treatment of a suspected intestinal obstruction."

Can't we just say he is full of s**t?

Posted by: digital dinosaur | Jan 4 2022 6:04 utc | 36

@Ripplewiggler | Jan 3 2022 23:00 utc | 25

Quite so. The need for surveillance by TPTB makes 5G trump aviation safety issues (whether real or imaginary).

Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 4 2022 6:44 utc | 37

Interesting commentary - 2022/24 should be an exciting ride for the planet, not just the USA.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/56957.htm

Posted by: digital dinosaur | Jan 4 2022 6:49 utc | 38

Right! Got it!: Dont fly, it is potentially very bad for your health, if things go bad it is usually very, very bad.
If you are in no hurry why not walk instead?
Think of all the overweight you will shed and with no carbon footprint (unless you step in wet tar). Or try a bicycle....

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Jan 4 2022 6:57 utc | 39

When your barometric, GPS and radio altimeters disagree blame 5G, for reasons.

GPS only IFR approaches have been certified for over 15 years.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/library/documents/2006/Oct/9082/GPS%20Approach%20Minima%20JulAug06.pdf

Posted by: too scents | Jan 4 2022 7:42 utc | 40

AT&T and Verizon reversed course on Monday night, announcing that they agreed to the request for a two-week delay of their 5G rollouts on C-Band frequencies, according to reports from several news organizations. "At Secretary [of Transportation Pete] Buttigieg's request, we have voluntarily agreed to one additional two-week delay of our deployment of C-Band 5G services,"

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/01/at-airlines-threaten-mass-flight-cancelations/

Posted by: ericm | Jan 4 2022 8:20 utc | 41

Ripplewiggler | Jan 3 2022 23:00 utc | 25

"Your're missing the forest for the trees. 5-G and above is required for IoT, including our fancy new 'brain chip' that the WEF is prattling on about in their "Great Reset" into transhumanism."

Question from the dull end of the class, How are 5-6 G related to the brain chip (APE chip), except for speed?

Just a simple pointer in the right direction, please, for me to catch up.
Or do you mean that all those "towers" will enable direct control over more concentrated areas of the population, in which case wouldn't 4G be enough?
*

Although I agree with your second point; "These technological mind and machine controlling methods are a means to an end, not an end in themselves"

Posted by: Stonebird | Jan 4 2022 9:43 utc | 42

sorry to see vk was banned.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jan 4 2022 10:32 utc | 43

Why would anyone want to be on a flight in or to the US f North A anyhow?
The immigration procedures and the frisking and searching of passangers are so demeaning to anyone (including native North Americans of Christian and Jewish extraction and not only Muslims or Scandinavians). So nobody would want to enter the US of North A or go on internal flights in that dictatorship-ridden Union except when in dire need. Otherwise: Keep out for the dire straits of North America!

Posted by: Theo Oros אש תיצפ | Jan 4 2022 12:44 utc | 44

Why would anyone want to be on a flight in or to the US f North A anyhow?
The immigration procedures and the frisking and searching of passangers are so demeaning to anyone (including native North Americans of Christian and Jewish extraction and not only Muslims or Scandinavians). So nobody would want to enter the US of North A or go on internal flights in that dictatorship-ridden Union except when in dire need. Otherwise: Keep out for the dire straits of North America!

Posted by: Theo Oros אש תיצפ | Jan 4 2022 12:44 utc | 44

Yes, I live here, and I stopped flying 20 years ago because they made it such an expensively hellish experience. Can't say I miss it. Given all the whining about climate change, you would think they would be willing to do something about the airlines and their carbon footprint too. But political sacred cows like air travel and the Pentagon must not be touched.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jan 4 2022 13:02 utc | 45

Why don't the North American travelling public do like the Mainland Chinese travellers do nowadays: Switch over from air travel to the more comfortable and often faster high speed railroad services that connect all major cities? (/sarcasm)

Posted by: Theo Oros אש תיצפ | Jan 4 2022 13:06 utc | 46

5G has a much shorter range than 3G/4G and is therefore less useful in countries without dense transmission infrastructure, the reason it is being marketed so aggressively is to enable high bandwidth communication and triangulation for military communications. It has potential value to advertisers for push advertising for local businesses given they already have your profile through Google etc. Marketing it to the plebs is a way to socialise the cost of infrastructure for military and intelligence use.

Posted by: Dadda | Jan 4 2022 13:18 utc | 47

@ S.P. Korolev | Jan 4 2022 2:48 utc | 32

Three pilots, once of them instructor. So much errors . 4 mysterious computer.....
???
Yes, all is about an altimeter. Or any "5g" interference....

Just a look on my #15 post.

Posted by: MineHop | Jan 4 2022 14:29 utc | 48

I think that this has less to do with 5G and more with control and NWO Covid. Let's remember that the Airlines have been given Billions of dollars to do what the USG and their masters, want them to do.

The US Pilots association states that it has lost 120 younger pilots this last year to deaths, whereas usually only 2 or 3 die naturally a year - Hello! So Yep there is a lot more to this story - and I flew planes in Ak. for over 20 yrs and understand the medical rules. Thanks

Posted by: GMC | Jan 4 2022 16:25 utc | 49

In the fight of primacy between Hwawei and Qualcomm, one of the issues was spectrum. China's choice was mostly around mid-bands while the us preferred higher frequency because its mid bands are already cluttered with existing usages. But the standard eventually went Huawei's way. US airlines had fight for other spectrum in the rule making process, but lost it to the carriers. So now they're making noises in the media trying to sway the rules back in their favor.

As for the applications of 5G, mostly it should be around internet-of-things,i.e. how machines interacts with each other rather than between internet and people. Huawei just recently won a major contract in Russia to modernize its mines with 5G. China's ambitious plan to go EV and autonomous driving also relies on how these cars tap into the 5G network.

Posted by: cindy6 | Jan 4 2022 16:59 utc | 50

C-Band (for terrestrial Wireless 3.7-3.98 GHz) is only used in North America. China isn't using it.

Posted by: Engineer | Jan 4 2022 17:04 utc | 51

C-Band (for terrestrial Wireless 3.7-3.98 GHz) is only used in North America. China isn't using it.

Posted by: Engineer | Jan 4 2022 17:04 utc | 51

===

Indeed. C-Band is considered 'low-band'.

https://www.everythingrf.com/community/5g-frequency-spectrum-in-china

Posted by: too scents | Jan 4 2022 17:16 utc | 52

more about the 5G allocated spectrum.

https://www.itu.int/hub/2020/01/wrc-19-identifies-additional-frequency-bands-for-5g/

Posted by: too scents | Jan 4 2022 17:24 utc | 53

offtopic, energy, asia: Indonesia temporarily bans coal export (!!)
https://thediplomat.com/2022/01/indonesia-bans-coal-exports-to-head-off-blackouts/

Posted by: ptb | Jan 4 2022 17:36 utc | 54

A question for all. Is the shift in stance by Scholz, which has been reported in the German press, evidence that the Biden administration has blinked? Is it to be presented as German cowardice rather than the Biden administration backing down?

"Reset"?

https://www.voanews.com/a/smaller-european-nations-uneasy-as-germany-scholz-plans-to-meet-putin/6379981.html

Posted by: Harry | Jan 4 2022 17:51 utc | 55

I remember about ten years ago a satellite phone startup wanted to buy frequency is the guard bands of the GPS system. They'd bought enough Congress to get their plans moving forward, when the military stepped in and requested an independent lab do the testing on it. They found it was interfering in the GPS, but only a little interference. The startup disappearing into bankruptcy soon after.

I'd assume the telecoms are promising filters and other measures to take care of a little interference.

Posted by: jhill | Jan 4 2022 18:01 utc | 56

I once read an interesting blog article about the military implications of 5g networks. Unfortunately the original page appears to be down but the article is available on archive:

The Stealthy Emperor With No Clothes

The author is an engineer of Soviet / East bloc background.

If he is correct, then the US' flapping panic about 5g might be more to do with their beloved F-35s being compromised than anything else.

Posted by: Unknown31 | Jan 4 2022 20:12 utc | 57

>staff shortages due to COVID.

staff shortages due to COVID *mandates*.


Dive deeper, B. This is not a matter of opinion but of unreported (if not suppressed) fact.

Posted by: Mike K. | Jan 4 2022 23:24 utc | 58

@Unknown31(57): Not only stealth issues. Maybe some more:
https://www.rt.com/russia/514934-nato-complain-5g-military-aviation/

Posted by: Wole | Jan 4 2022 23:35 utc | 59

I wonder how much danger there really is -
The cell sites in this band would use cavity filters (very high Q) which should pretty much eliminate out of band emissions. The airplane and cell site antennas are pointed in orthogonal directions, and the transmit power is at most 120W.

Posted by: ian | Jan 5 2022 1:40 utc | 60

Turkish Airlines Flight 1951
As a commercial airline pilot, I have always been taught that before any kind of approach, all instruments, primary, secondary and back-up, were always checked against each other in order to evaluate what kind of an approach would be shot.
In Flight 1951, the primary radar altimeter showed (-8) the entire flight, which would tend to demand an approach without the radar altimeter, much less the autopilot.

Posted by: Bardi | Jan 5 2022 2:48 utc | 61

The cell sites in this band would use cavity filters (very high Q) which should pretty much eliminate out of band emissions.

Likely correct. The problem according to the article is that legacy radar RECEIVERS do not have serious preselector filters and thus risk being overwhelmed by adjacent 5G signals (i.e. legitimate 5G signals themselves, not the accompanying "spurious" emissions which are always generated to some extent).

Posted by: Condor | Jan 5 2022 21:19 utc | 62

Blancolirio,a 777 pilot has a nice post about this.

Posted by: casey | Jan 6 2022 23:59 utc | 63

Well - after becoming too scared to read b’s week in review (as mentioned in my Slow Day comment @217), I am now becoming too scared to keep watching the “feel-good” stories featured in The Moment on CBC’s The National.

Man builds, like DIY’s, a flight simulator in his backyard in Alberta

https://twitter.com/CBCTheNational/status/1479451768492855300?s=20

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Jan 7 2022 14:52 utc | 64

Okay, now do the same question concerning 5G and health issues. The correct approach would be "show me that there are no adverse and/or cumulative longterm affects of 5G radiation to the health of humans, animals and plant life."
The actual approach is "people do not drop dead on the spot when this stuff gets activated, so let's get it over with. As for animals and plants, we don't even bother."
Most people conveniently turn a blind eye, as in 'Progress now, worry later'.

Posted by: Matthias | Jan 10 2022 10:24 utc | 65

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