What Russia Says About Its Not-An-Ultimatum Demands To The U.S. And NATO

December 22, 2021

Russia has detailed its security demands to the U.S. and NATO in form of two draft treaties.

Besides yours truly many knowledgeable bloggers and publicists have also written about the issue:

M. K. Bhadrakumar – Spectre of war is haunting Europe
Andrei Raevsky (aka The Saker) – Russia’s ultimatum to the West (IMPORTANT UPDATE)
Andrei Martyanov – People Asked, I Respond. On the Run.
Gilbert Doctorow at Antiwar – A Surprise Russian Ultimatum: New Draft Treaties To Roll Back NATO
Patrick J. Buchanan at Antiwar – What To Do About That Russian Ultimatum
Gerard Toat in the Irish Times – Delusion on all sides has paved way for Russia-Nato standoff
Andrei Raevsky again – What could happen next if the USA rejects the Russian ultimatum?
Patrick Armstrong – WE’VE SEEN THE ULTIMATUM, WHAT IS THE “OR ELSE”?

Andrei Martyanov also explains the timing. Russia is technologically and militarily in a strong position and currently can survive a break with the 'western' world without too much trouble. The U.S. is in disarray and NATO not ready to fight. It is simply the right moment.

To add to his short video I will also note that it is winter and that Europe depends on Russian gas. Gazprom is no longer offering gas at European spot markets but only delivering in previously agreed quantities to long term contract partners. This puts pressure on German regulators to finally sign off on Nord Stream II which the U.S. and Ukraine want to prevent by all means. Russia does not need that pipeline but Germany does.

The timing thereby guarantees that the issues Russia has noted will get the appropriate attention in all of Europe.

Some 'western experts' like the anti-Russian Dimitri Alperovitch believe that Russia will wage war on Ukraine no matter what but especially if the U.S. and NATO reject the treaties.

I believe that to be false. If something has to be done about Ukraine, which is currently not the case, it will be a Gulf War 1 style war that will destroy its armed forces but not invade the country. It is not worth the effort.

Andrei Martyanov lists a number of impressive weapons systems Russia could set up on its ground or around the world and sell to "more than allies" China, India and other customers. The U.S. forces would thereby come under severe threats in several theaters.

I believe that Russia has also a number of impressive new arms and systems that it has not unveiled yet. Those too can be station in many places and can also get sold to its allies. Those who threaten Russia will come under at least equally strong threats in their offices and homes.

Raevsky and Armstrong present more options in their last pieces listed above.

Meanwhile Russia has increased the pressure on the issue. Throughout the last days everyone of higher rank relevant to foreign policy and defense has held some talk on the issue. All of them were translated to English. This will supposedly help to get the attention the Russian steps deserve.

When Russia talks one should listen. Here are therefore the relevant excerpts from all these interviews and speeches.

On December 18 in an long interview with Interfax Deputy Foreign Minister Sergey Ryabkov, the point man for the treaties, explained the reasoning behind the demands:

The security situation in Europe, the Euro-Atlantic region and Eurasia has indeed greatly deteriorated recently. This has happened because of a series of concerted actions by the United States and its NATO allies, which, generally speaking, can be described as an attempt to undermine Russia’s security and to create a hostile environment around us. We cannot accept this.

Ukraine is in the focus of this policy. Ukraine’s decisions are not independent but are subject to change in the situation. When the West provides unconditional and unqualified support to Ukraine, certain quarters in Kiev play up to the worst Western objectives and formulas. And the possibility of Ukraine eventually joining NATO, which some Ukrainian officials keep talking about, is categorically unacceptable to us. We will do our best to prevent this.

Ryabkov rejects to call the draft treaties an 'ultimatum' and he leaves open what Russia would do if the U.S. and its European proxies fail to react positively to Russia's concerns:

Question: But if, say, they reject our proposal, will that untie our hands?

Sergey Ryabkov: We will use the appropriate methods and approaches we need to ensure our security. We do not want a conflict and we would like to come to terms on a reasonable foundation. …

On December 18 Ryabkov's colleague Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko gave an interview to the Solovyov Live YouTube channel. TASS reported on it:

Russia will engage in creating counter threats if NATO turns down the Russian proposals for security guarantees, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko said on Solovyov Live YouTube channel on Saturday.

"We are making clear that we are ready to talk about switching over from a military or a military-technical scenario to a political process" that will strengthen the security of all countries in the area of the OCSE, Euro-Atlantic and Eurasia, he said. "If that doesn’t work out, we signaled to them (NATO-TASS) that will also move over to creating counter threats, but it will then be too late to ask us why we made these decisions and why we deployed these systems."

On December 20 Grushko also gave an interview to Rossiyskaya Gazeta. He is asked what Russia would do if no agreement is found:´

Question: Mr Grushko, discussions of the action plan regarding NATO’s expansion, which Russia has proposed to Washington, are ongoing. You have mentioned a “military-technical alternative,” if NATO rejects Moscow’s proposals. What do you have in mind?

Alexander Grushko: If our concerns are disregarded and NATO countries are not ready to show military restraint, we will have to use the response instruments at our disposal. There is no other option. If the other side decides to project, let alone use force, that is, if it applies its defence capability as a means of economic or political pressure, this will be unacceptable to Russia, and we will find methods to neutralise these threats.

Question: What methods could this be?

Alexander Grushko: For example, if strike systems capable of reaching our command centres within a matter of minutes are deployed in the territory of NATO countries, we will have to create an appropriate situation for them.

The flight time of a hypersonic missile fired from a Russian submarine stationed near the U.S. east coast (or from Cuba?) to Washington DC is impressively short.

Then Ryabkov talked with TASS:

Russia is ready for a military response if NATO keeps ignoring Moscow’s security concerns, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergey Ryabkov said on Monday.

"I said that we would find forms to respond, including by military and military-technical means [if NATO ignores Moscow’s concerns again]," the high-ranking Russian diplomat told TASS.

"I reaffirm this. We will have to balance the activities that are of concern to us, because they increase the risks, with our countermeasures," Ryabkov said.

Yesterday Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov gave a long interview to a number of RT correspondents. A transcript is not yet available but the English language video is here. During the first few minutes Lavrov rips NATO General Secretary Jens Stoltenberg a new one.

Also on December 21 President Vladimir Putin gave a speech at the annual expanded meeting of the Defense Ministry Board at the National Defense Control Centre. The part where he talks about defense modernization he mentions this:

We continued to actively develop cutting-edge weapons systems. Some of them, namely the Avangard and Kinzhal systems, have been put on combat duty.

Later on he demurs about U.S. weapons systems in Poland and Romania:

The Mk 41 launchers, which are located in Romania and are to be deployed in Poland, are adapted for launching the Tomahawk strike missiles. If this infrastructure continues to move forward, and if US and NATO missile systems are deployed in Ukraine, their flight time to Moscow will be only 7–10 minutes, or even five minutes for hypersonic systems. This is a huge challenge for us, for our security.

Putin explains how the draft treaties grew out of his virtual summit with Biden. He goes on:

[W]e need at least something, at least a legally binding agreement rather than just verbal assurances. We know the worth of such verbal assurances, fine words and promises. Take the recent past, in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when we were told that our concerns about NATO’s potential expansion eastwards were absolutely groundless. And then we saw five waves of the bloc’s eastward expansion. Do you remember how it happened? All of you are adults. It happened at a time when Russia’s relations with the United States and main member states of NATO were cloudless, if not completely allied.

I have already said this in public and will remind you of this again: American specialists were permanently present at the nuclear arms facilities of the Russian Federation. They went to their office there every day, had desks and an American flag. Wasn’t this enough? What else is required? US advisors worked in the Russian Government, career CIA officers gave their advice. What else did they want? What was the point of supporting separatism in the North Caucasus, with the help of even ISIS – well, if not ISIS, there were other terrorist groups. They obviously supported terrorists. What for? What was the point of expanding NATO and withdrawing from the ABM Treaty?

They are to blame for what is happening in Europe now, for the escalation of tensions there. …

As to how Russia will fix that:

Naturally, as I have already noted, if our Western colleagues continue their obviously aggressive line, we will take appropriate military-technical reciprocal measures and will have a tough response to their unfriendly steps. And, I would like to stress that we are fully entitled to these actions that are designed to ensure Russia’s security and independence.

He later adds:

Given the complicated international situation, it is necessary to develop military and military-technical cooperation with states that are members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation and the Collective Security Treaty Organisation and to pay special attention to strengthening the defence capability of the Russia-Belarus Union State.

Putin's speech is followed by one by Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu. He explains the military situation from the Russian perspective. NATO and the U.S. are doing all they can encroach on Russia. Of the Ukraine he especially notes:

The military development of Ukraine’s territory by NATO countries is underway. The situation is being further aggravated by the deliveries of US and allied helicopters, unmanned combat aerial vehicles and guided anti-tank missiles. The presence of over 120 members of US private military companies in Avdeyevka and Priazovskoye, Donetsk Region, has been proved reliably.

They are setting up firing positions in residential houses and social facilities and are preparing the Ukrainian special operations forces and far-right armed groups for active hostilities. Unidentified chemical warfare agents have been delivered to Avdeyevka and Krasny Liman for the purpose of provocations. The Ukrainian military keep up the shelling of civilian neighbourhoods in Donbass and the positions of the people’s militias of the Lugansk and Donetsk republics to provoke a response.

Shoigu details the exceptional amount of modern weapons the armed forces have received and concludes:

Comrade Supreme Commander-in-Chief,

All the tasks assigned to the Armed Forces for 2021 have been accomplished. The Armed Forces’ combat capability has grown by 12.8 percent; the prescribed level of national defence capability has been ensured. The implementation of all signed contracts has ensured the delivery of over 5,000 main armament models. The rearmament of the Army and the Navy and regular servicing have made it possible to maintain military equipment in good condition at the level of 95 percent.
…
Russian society has a high regard for the Defence Ministry’s activities. Over 90 percent of Russian citizens are confident that the Armed Forces are capable of defending the country, and 88 percent are proud of the Army and Navy.
…
In accordance with your instruction, we will continue to ensure the sustainable development of the Armed Forces and to enhance their combat capabilities throughout 2022. We will discuss the results of our activities in great detail at our limited-attendance meeting.

Then Putin is back on with a more informal talk. He also rejects to call the draft treaty an 'ultimatum'. He bemoans the illegality of U.S. action:

As a reminder: everything that our partners – let us call them that – the United States has been doing in previous years, supposedly ensuring its interests and security thousands of kilometres away from their national territory – they have been doing these tough things, the boldest things, without UN Security Council authorisation.

He notes that sometime in the future the U.S. will also have hypersonic weapons like the ones Russia currently has or is fielding. It could station those in the Ukraine and directly threaten Moscow. Then comes the important part:

Armed conflicts and bloodshed are absolutely not our choice. We do not want to see events go that way. We want to use political and diplomatic means to resolve problems but we want to at least have clearly formulated legal guarantees. This is what our proposals are all about. We set them down on paper and sent them to Brussels and Washington, and we hope to receive a clear and comprehensive response to these proposals.

There are certain signals that our partners appear to be willing to work on that. However, there is also a danger that they will attempt to drown our proposals in words, or in a swamp, in order to take advantage of this pause and do whatever they want to do.

To make it clear to everyone: we are aware of this, and this turn of events, these developments, will not work for us. We look forward to constructive and meaningful talks with a visible outcome – and within a definite timeframe – that would ensure equal security for all.

This is what we will strive to achieve, but we can do so only if the Armed Forces are developing properly.

Posted by b on December 22, 2021 at 19:19 UTC | Permalink

Comments

Posted by: Skiffer | Dec 23 2021 20:35 utc | 99

…
I would instead expect Russia to counter by establishing a comparable irritant in proximity to the US mainland that would be impossible for the Americans to ignore, something that would force them to re-evaluate the strategic cost of maintaining said missile defense systems in Eastern Europe.

Could you be more specific? I’m not seeing too many options here. Let’s see, someplace roughly 500km away from the nation’s capital… hmm
I know, how about Southern Ontario? I checked the numbers and those new frigates can make it up the St. Lawrence Seaway no problemo, so I guess it’s a done deal?

Posted by: robin | Dec 23 2021 21:55 utc | 101

On Dec 22 2021 22:06 utc | 34, I wrote: The signing ceremony can be broadcast to the world; the US would pay a heavy price if it reneged on the treaty.
Then on Dec 23 2021 16:34 utc | 86 pachinko asked: What price would the US have to pay?
The US would pay a heavy price for reneging on a treaty with the Russians, especially if the treaty was signed in view of all the world. The price would be a political one. When Trump tore up the JCPOA, the world probably wrote that off as the action of an impulsive and erratic Republican. Now if a Democratic president, Biden, reneges on a treaty, there would be no doubt: there are no resposible people left in the American government.
This would have serious consequences for the US. The vassals in Europe would question whether they could trust the Yanks to back them up. And no country or region anywhere in the world would join the US’s side versus Russia and China. Why would they do such a risky thing if they can’t trust America to keep its word? So the US would become largely irrelevant. That would be a heavy price.
But NOT signing a peace treaty with Russia would also cost the US dearly, for it would be forced to maintain its aggressive global military posture as a counter to Russia. But the sudden withdrawal from Afghanistan indicates quite strongly that America’s knees are about to buckle from the weight of its full spectrum dominance. And there’s the daunting cost of the approaching fight with China. The Americans desperately need some relief, which a treaty with Russia would provide.
(Yes, facing off against the US is expensive for the Russians too. But they probably feel that they have no choice. At least defense, their job, is a lot cheaper than offense, the US’s job. With economic support from China, the Russians can keep it up indefinitely.)
So there you have it: Putin has maneuvered the Americans into zugswang.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 23 2021 22:53 utc | 102

Posted by: tucenz | Dec 22 2021 20:23 utc | 7
thank you tucenz!

Posted by: migueljose | Dec 23 2021 23:24 utc | 103

Just did a google news search using russia’s proposals as the search term to see what’s been published and by which organizations and was somewhat surprised to see mostly a whole bunch on nothing from the myriad of US-based sites: the hundreds of newspapers and magazines were mostly silent. Oh, I did see several lies published as truths, like ABC’s “State ordered killing in Germany” and crap about what’s really going on with the Yamal pipeline. I was again reminded why I stopped reading such trash.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 24 2021 1:21 utc | 104

@ karlof1 | Dec 24 2021 1:21 utc | 104 with the answer to the question in my comment about how the MSM is going to handle the Russian security proposals
Crickets huh? Not surprised but they may be trying to get a crafted response together. That said, I expect that the resources needed to respond to this international pressure don’t have time to move forward stupid things related to Taiwan or Iran and while there is built in momentum, now there is visible push back and it has to be changing/challenging the global scheme of things….what if China were to get so demanding about Taiwan?
Thanks for all your contributions at the MoA bar and the best of the holidays to you.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 24 2021 1:40 utc | 105

RE: Posted by: laodan | Dec 23 2021 14:16 utc | 83 For New Years
VIA
RE: NotEuclid on December 23, 2021 · at 5:23 am EST/EDT
“Analysts and strategists adopt different roles.”
““Facility is often a facilitator of bias.”
In non-professional circles this is often rendered as “Hammers often see nails” which others suffix with “as a function of their design”.
“Talking about hazy options that a strategist will take doesn’t help.”
You are mistaken – speculation increases the noise to signal ratio increasing doubt in those whose (lack of) facility encourages them to interpret notices of intents with “ultimata” facilitating another iteration of reliance on belief.”
The lack of facility is not restricted to the audiences, but includes the “analysts” and “moderators” and those who believe that “stolen” apples taste sweeter predicated upon “We the people hold these truths to be self-evident” derivatives, including “Everyone is entitled to their own opinion (apple)” since “We the people….” leads some to imagine that they should know and rely on beliefs, instead of realising that they don’t know, nor likely can they know – that being a very prevalent immersive myth/process in “representative democracy/virtual reality” to facilitate “representative democracy/virtual reality”.
That is one of the primary purposes of blogs and bloggers mostly facilitated by default instead of design, in emulation of Mr. Rove’s assertion that:
We are an Empire
We create our own reality to which others react
Whilst they are react
We create another reality to which they react.
whilst some remember Mr. Gogol’s observation that the King of Spain has a wart on his nose and over-indulged dogs write letters.

Posted by: NotEuclid | Dec 24 2021 11:06 utc | 106

Both new german chancelloor and new german foreign minister agree on that the NSII pipeline only will start pumping when all the requirements by EU legsilation are fulfilled.
https://www.rt.com/russia/544201-germany-plan-nord-stream/
I do not know the EU legislation in this regard, but as a European taxpayer, I wonder, why the current energetic situation of the Eurozone is not deeemd an emergency in the worst of the winter, so as to accelerate and even chnage legislation, as it was done with the “vaccines” so that to avoid, first scarcity of gas, and second that the gas escalates to estratospheric prices.
In the aritcle pposte above, ity is said that the fullfillement of legal requirements will take no less that the first half of the next year…
Meanwhile dozens of tankers full with expensive LNG from the USA are crossing right now the Atlantic to cover for the gas escarcity…probably orquestated through shenanigans by US actors in the north of Africa, where the Magreb-Europe pipeline was recently closed by the rifirafe between Algeria and Morocco, both actors managed, one way or the other, by the US DoS or BlackRock through its participation in other competing pipelines, by the US.
That this is not deemed an emergency, and that of the pandemic is, and that both considerations are, curiously, fullfilling the US corporations pockets so that to allow the US to navigate its financial about to explode bubble on the backs of European taxpayers, is an understatement.
That Germany, and with it the EU, is a de facto colony, or satrapy, of the US, paying unending tribute for go to know what, is a fact.
That this political class, sold to the US interests in detriment of those of the EU taxpayers, must be ousted as as soon as possible before they squeeze the citizenry to the bones, is an understatement too…
Putin should had clarified this state of affairs when he had the opportinity, yesterday at his presser…
A lost one.

Posted by: Black bread | Dec 24 2021 12:04 utc | 107

As I see it, the US creates the problem, and then it offers the always expensive solution.
It is the US the highly likley in the origin of the SarsCov2, then it is the US who offers the already proved uneffective but clearly highly damaging vaccines, whose prices are subject to especulation as was signed in the contracts with the Eu and other SouthAmerican countries, and eventghough not solving any peroblem with the pandemic, already escalating to triple the initial price, not forgetting the research was financed with public, that is taxpayers money, funds.
It is the US who is creating the especulative supply scarcity by blockade of ports nad supply lines from months ago, plus adding the especulation by blockading of alternative pipelines in which they do not have participation so that to mon opolize the market with its expensive LNG which before these shenanigans was deemed a bad business because of ruining, by its price who had no place in the market.
That not only Russia, but the whole European citizenry, is under attack by the US since at least two years ago with the goal of navigating its last financial crisis, is a fact, and that we, Europeans, will never win this war until we awake to the acknowledgement of who is the enemy here and fight it, is another understatement.
Or we oust this comprador political class sold to foreign interests, of we perish, or, in the best case, become slaves for generations to pay for the accumulated debt originated in all these shenanigans.
We are being submitted to the same shock doctrine the USSR was, with the same outcomes in the waiting, 12 million Soviet citizens died at that time…
Awake Europe and defend yourself!
Russia is not attacking you, look in the opposite direction….

Posted by: Black bread | Dec 24 2021 12:23 utc | 108

Another problem created by the US in Europe is that of Ukraine, as it was the US who orchestrated the coup which ousted the legitimate, although imperfect ( well, compared to our elites in the EU one would say Yanukovich still tried to balance the interests of the Ukraine to keep them amongst two marauding sharks, the US and the EU ) government, to put in its place a bloodthirsty nazi junta, to then postpone the solution, clearly in its hands, so that to create a supurating abcess in the heart of Europe which this way can obstruct the development of both, Russia and Europe, the same shenanigan which they used before WWII….by previously sowing divide in certain European countries by supporting fascism there…

Posted by: Black bread | Dec 24 2021 12:33 utc | 109

In response to robin@101,
No, I’m afraid not. It really depends on what the US considers an unacceptable security threat. It could be something that they’ve been candid about in talks with the Russians in the past and gotten certain guarantees about, or it could be something out of left field. We’ll just have to wait and see how the situation develops in order to find out.

Posted by: Skiffer | Dec 24 2021 12:58 utc | 110

@ Gerard Toat in the Irish Times
I’ve read the article, which is more-less acceptable, meaning we can argue about this and that, but generally it is ok. Alas, Knights of the Comments !!! They are sooooo amusing. Probably after they got their full time education at MSM universities, they are 100% ready (or, are they?) to go an kick assess of those Asiatic Russkie Hordes.
Unfortunately, I am not ready to pay 3 EUR per week to be allowed to post any kind of comment (and become a part of Knighthood), for such info hub as the Irish Times representing. It is not worth a penny (per millennium, at least).
Instead, I’m calling all Knights of the Comments (whoever they are, ukro bots, “highly educated” irish or else people) of the Irish Times to join together under the banner of NDWI (do not know what it means?, oh my, educate, or inform, yourself first, not sure google will help) slogan and go to Eastern Front to finally resolve the issue of above mentioned Hordes. Are you ready to join me? Anybody?
Well, I know a little bit about of irish people since early 70-ties. They were REALLY friendly and simple. There were no ways you can not love them. Playing their fiddles, singing their popular songs on the ferry between Dún Laoghaire and Holyhead (in Wales, am I right?). Going to british cities, or further to continental europe, or wherever, looking for work.
In Dublin pubs, Irish people were paying drinks to EVERYONE who are not british. They had national proud in their blood. They knew (I hope they still know) there is the last british colony in the world on their land.
But, times are changing, and irish people feel they are now highly above those Asiatic Russkie Hordes (of definitely yellow colour, I guess) in every kind of civilised manners, and therefore, they are blessed by God to have to teach, learn, do whatever they want to those Asiatic Russkie Hordes.
I appreciate attitude of irish people (not all of them, c’mon), and again, I’m calling them to unite against those Asiatic Russkie Hordes and join me under the banner of NDWI. We shall prevail (at least in Northern Ireland, if our owners allow us to).
Merry Chrismas to all.

Posted by: mal’k, mal’k, na g.. | Dec 24 2021 15:58 utc | 111

@Skiffer, #110:
You’re not keeping up with MSM news (or garbage, as you please), the US has made it perfectly clear what it considers as an unacceptable threat. It is Chinese eating more pork these days.
This pork eating trend of China’s must be brought to a stop, even if it meant our blue globe goes up in smoke.
Merry Christmas everyone. Skip the ham this year at Christmas dinner. Eat what our MSM dishes out instead.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Dec 24 2021 18:48 utc | 112

psychohistorian @105–
Thanks for your reply!! Yes, I agree the Master Narrative has been badly punctured, and the realization that the Outlaw US Empire is the actor with diminished capabilities has hit the String Pullers upside the head like an ice ball, not a soft snowball. January 2 in Geneva is the time and place for the talks to commence that I’ve seen advanced by Russian sources.
Try to enjoy the snow and cold weather coming our way next week The wife’s got the entire week off, so we’ll just shelter in place and watch snow flakes amongst the breakers on the ocean. Have an eggnog and enjoy the holiday week!!

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 24 2021 19:00 utc | 113

Now if a Democratic president, Biden, reneges on a treaty, there would be no doubt: there are no resposible people left in the American government.
This would have serious consequences for the US. The vassals in Europe would question whether they could trust the Yanks to back them up.
Posted by: Cyril | Dec 23 2021 22:53 utc | 102
This is what I was thinking five years ago. But you cannot enter the same river twice. By now, it is a question that I cannot answer: are there ANY responsible people left in NATO (and allied) countries among those that have any chances to be included in a national government. Would any responsible individuals got into such a position, say, in Montenegro, Belgium, or even Italy, they would be quickly tamed by a combination of bribes and intimidation. But in major countries, UK, France, Germany, it is hard to see anyone.
Multiparty system offer a chance for a party led by people with some brain cells intact. But they must form coalitions with human equivalent of tunicates. Tunicates are a sister clade of vertebrate in which central nerve system appears during the embryonic development and subsequently disappears. In some ecological niches, like sitting immobile on ocean bottom and filtering water, or Western politics and journalism, functional brains are de-selected by evolution.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Dec 24 2021 19:24 utc | 114

“Ukraine proposes peace plan for Donbass” is yet another attempt to skirt the UNSCR Minsk-2 treaty. Russia has stated there will be NO further Normandy Format talks until Kiev fulfills Minsk, yet what do we read:
“The steps were announced by President Volodymyr Zelensky and his senior adviser, Andrey Yermak, at a conference of Ukrainian ambassadors on Tuesday. According to Zelensky, the propositions can be implemented by the parties in the Normandy Format talks – Berlin, Moscow, Kiev and Paris – and also Washington.”
Unfortunately, the fact I relate isn’t mentioned in the article. Clearly, Zelensky is a human watermelon unable to hear anything aside from his own thoughts. The proposal will go nowhere like those that came before.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 24 2021 19:32 utc | 115

Clearly, Zelensky is a human watermelon …
Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 24 2021 19:32 utc | 115
I offered more accurate description of the condition of Zelikovsky and the bulk of Western elite. Tunicates, a subphylum sister to Vertebrate is a better analogy. An individual starts with a quasi-brain, but after completing its development, it turns into a hollow cavity lined with few remaining neurons. Thus it can still respond to stimuli using neurons, hence faster than plants.
For some reasons, early biologists had serious doubts if tunicates, and individuals analogous to Zelikovsky belong to Animalia, but they do. The intelligence level can be compared to clams (although some exhibit no ability to clam up).

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Dec 24 2021 20:39 utc | 116

RE: Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 24 2021 19:32 utc | 115
VIA
“That’s where this trouble started:”
No this trouble started from at least The Treaty of Versailles in 1919 and the use of ethnic nationalism in attempt to divide and rule, although Mr. Suslov chose 1922 “after” the Russian Civil War, the creation of the Soviet Union, and the Hoover programmes of famine relief, but some others would suggest 1619 with the foundation of Jamestown.
There is a saying in certain fora in the Russian Federation that when trouble happens the Germans try to find a solution whilst the Anglo-Saxons try to find someone to blame, this not being prevalent in the Soviet Union since they also followed this practice – enemies-of-the-peopleness refers – trying to establish where this trouble started often was often pursued to establish enemies-of-the-peopleness- a practice not restricted to The Soviet Union, in attempts to deflect focus on finding a solution whilst appearing to be making efforts to find the solution – Mr. Stalin’s observation of no man-no problem refers.
Mr. Marx makes this point in his theses on Feuerbach which I paraphrase – Philiosophers here to fore have merely described the world – the purpose is to change it.
Component parts of the reasons why the Soviet Union is subject to an ongoing process of transcendence by the Russian Federation is that as part of the attempted reform of the Soviet Union by perestroika first and glasnot later routes by useful fools, the acceptance of verbal and written “assurances” of opponents were held to be “sufficient” and perceived as necessary to facilitate reform, and that others had been preparing since 1969 for just such an “eventuality”, increasing the understanding of increasing sum of some that The Soviet Union was unsustainable facilitating its implosion.
The ongoing attempted colour revolutions by the coercive social relations self-misreprested as “The United States of America” in the former Soviet Union accelerated the ongoing transcendence of The Soviet Union by the Russian Federation and the ongoing transcendence of “The United States of America” by the Russian Federation and others with whom they are federated in a different form than “The United States of America” are federated, with the complicity of “The United States of America” – hence one of the reasons for the usage of “partners” by some to describe “The United States of America” – although thanking them for their service was deemed to be culturally offensive, and best left undone.
To return to Mr. Suslov.
Some perceived the rhyming of Mr. Hoover’s efforts in 1922 with a self-perceived princess who sold the party line on PBS re “Ukraine” yesterday, and dispensed plain bulkas, but forgot the salt and something to drink, to lesser beings in Independence Square half-way up Kreshatik on the left on the way to Podil in 2014, whilst an increasing sum of some implemented strategies in the understanding that the purpose was/is to change it (laterally) -(not emulate it).

Posted by: NotEuclid | Dec 25 2021 11:41 utc | 117

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 24 2021 19:32 utc | 115
“The proposal will go nowhere like those that came before.”
“I might be wrong here “
“Why? “
In interactions omniscience is never an option and consequently absolutes are never an option except as a construct of self-delusion upon which to rely, facilitated by misguided notions that we the people can know.
Consequently you are always deluded in some degree and you are not alone in self-delusion.
Hence why blogs are modes of increasing the noise to signal ratio, whilst facilitating chasing after holograms/moonbeams of your own “perception/projection” as Mr. Rove observed even if “Empire” is “edited out”.
Hence the edited version reads;
We are
We interact to create reality to which others react
Whilst others are reacting, we interact to create reality
To which others react.
and hence the the proposal has already gone somewhere through various portals.

Posted by: NotEuclid | Dec 27 2021 13:17 utc | 118

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