Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 30, 2021
Talks Between Putin And Biden Continue

Later today U.S. President Joe Biden and Russia's President Vladimir Putin will have another video call. The Russian side had requested the call. Putin obviously wants to keep the pressure on the U.S. to agree on the two draft treaties Russia had offered.

He is helped in that by China who's Foreign Minister Wang Yi again emphasized Russian-Chinese cooperation:

On global governance, China and Russia have demonstrated our sense of responsibility. The two countries firmly upheld the UN-centered international system and the international order underpinned by international law. We jointly opposed interference in other countries’ internal affairs, unilateral sanctions and long-arm jurisdiction. Our efforts have helped build a bulwark supporting the practice of true multilateralism and upholding international equity and justice, showing the world how major countries should behave.

We are convinced that as long as China and Russia, as two major countries, stand together shoulder to shoulder and deepen coordination hand in hand, the international order will not fall into disarray, justice in the world will not collapse, and hegemonism will not win.

A preview of the video call from Russia, by Valdai International Discussion Club Research Director Fyodor Lukyanov, is positive:

"High-level impetus is needed ahead of the diplomatic negotiations. In fact, at this time, diplomacy fully depends on efforts at the top level. In the past, diplomats used to prepare an agenda, and then heads of state held meetings but now it’s vice versa: first heads of state reach some agreements and then diplomats make preparations," he pointed out.

According to the expert, since the United States did not reject Russia’s proposals on security guarantees right away, it means that Washington is willing to give a number of concessions. "Clearly, there is an array of positions that are unacceptable and will not be accepted, but this is what talks are for, they are meant to discuss the entire range of things and figure out where the parties can agree," the analyst went on to say.

According to him, the United States cannot accept all of Russia’s proposals because it’s not appropriate for Biden "to engage in a conversation only on the Russian set of proposals." "He needs to make some proposals on his own part, and then negotiating skills will be what matters," Lukyanov emphasized.

I agree that it the U.S. will make a few offers but it is unlikely that the U.S. will agree to the Russia's core demands as it would end its plans to surround Russia to eventual disable it as a competing super power. The U.S. will try to stretch out the talks and will come up with its own mishmash of proposals for solely that purpose.

Putin's call is likely designed to prevent that. Russia had set a rather strict time limit of a few weeks. Putin will emphasize that. It is also possible that Putin will hint at some of the 'military technical measures' which Russia had said it would implement should the U.S. not agree to the necessary measures that enhance Russia's security.

Russia's most important request is to end NATO expansion. The U.S. will have to accept that in some formal way to prevent an escalation. I doubt that it will do so right away.

To set a frame for the talks there was some recent unofficial bluffing from the Russian side:

Russia’s new S-550 air defense system, said to be capable of hitting high-altitude spacecraft and missiles, including hypersonic types, has passed trials and is already in service, TASS has reported.

The Moscow news agency quoted a source, which it said is close to the Defense Ministry, who described the S-550 as “an absolutely new mobile strategic missile defense system, which is unparalleled anywhere in the world and capable of striking spacecraft, warheads of intercontinental ballistic missiles and hypersonic targets.”

“The S-550 air defense system has successfully completed state trials. Its first brigade has already been placed on combat duty,” they continued.

That is obviously nonsense. The beginning of the development of the S-550 was only announced in mid November:

Russia is developing an advanced, never-before-seen S-550 missile system, the Defense Ministry announced Tuesday.

Reports suggested the model is a revival of a late Soviet project shuttered in a deal with the United States.

Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said the orders came from President Vladimir Putin at a recent meeting with military top brass.

Even Russia can not develop, test, produce and field a new air and space defense missile in just 6 weeks. The TASS piece is bollocks.

Russia has live tested the S-500 missile in July and reportedly fielded a limited number of those. A S-550 fielding is years out.

The U.S. is bluffing too:

A US Air Force E-8C Joint STARS battle management plane has made its maiden flight over eastern Ukraine for a reconnaissance mission to gather information about the situation on the ground, an American official has revealed.

Speaking to CNN on Wednesday, US European Command spokesman Lt. Cmdr. Russ Wolfkiel explained that the aircraft flew on Monday with permission from Ukrainian authorities and did not cross the border of the Donetsk (DPR) and Luhansk People’s Republics (LPR), which are currently run as unrecognized states by separatists demanding independence from Kiev. The frontier area is the site of a war between the forces and the Ukrainian military.

Wolfkiel did not reveal the aircraft’s exact route or its scouting information but told CNN that the Pentagon “routinely operates aircraft in the Black Sea region.”

The operational range of the Russian S-400 air defense missile is 400km. The U.S. plane will likely have stayed far away from the Russian and Belorussian border to keep out of their reach.

Talks between Russia and the U.S. will begin on January 10 on the level of Deputy Foreign Ministers. Talks with NATO and with the OSCE will follow a few days later.

So far U.S. foreign policy under Joe Biden has been a continuation of the policies pursued under Trump:

If the Biden administration’s second year is going to be more successful than its first, it will need to take more risks and accept more short-term criticism to advance U.S. interests abroad. Engaging with Russia to defuse the crisis over Ukraine will be controversial in Washington and in some allied capitals, but it is necessary to reduce tensions and avoid worse outcomes.

What the Biden administration must not do is simply maintain Trump-era policies for the next three years because they are afraid of the political backlash from hawks that are going to attack them in the harshest terms no matter what they do.

The U.S. policy of putting out sanctions left and right has continued under Biden.

I doubt that he and the people behind him have the will and the energy to change course. They would have to fight with Congress to get to an agreement with Russia. I therefore expect only little results from the upcoming talks.

The U.S. position will only change if and when Russia makes some really obvious moves and puts Washington DC under an imminent threat. A few hypersonic set up in central or south America should do.

Comments

https://www.naval-technology.com/news/us-navy-commissions-nsf-redzikowo-in-poland/

The US Navy commissioned its new shore installation, Naval Support Facility (NSF) Redzikowo, Poland, on 3 September.
The ceremony marked the turnover of the support facilities to the US Navy from the US Army Corps of Engineers.
In 2016, NSF Redzikowo was established as the first US installation in Poland.
Redzikowo will become the second operational site for the Aegis Ashore Missile Defense System (AAMDS), which is part of the contribution of the US to Nato ballistic missile defence.
The Redzikowo AAMDS base is under construction and is expected to begin operations before 2022.

These bases are equally capable of launching nuclear armed cruise missiles. The base in Poland is only a few minutes flight time from Kaliningrad. Having those shut down will be a non negotiable part of Russia’s demands. Russian leadership have not publicly mentioned a word about this base in the recent demands which allows US to quietly shut it down while blustering to their domestic audience about Ukraine.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 31 2021 20:24 utc | 101

@soudski, #96:
I recalled a few weeks back when the west was bitching about Russian troop buildup at the border, one accusation was that Russia jam Ukrainian electronic communications. I equate Ukrainian communication to NATO communication, because the elite units facing the Donesked frontline were mercenaries with state of the art hardware. Yeah, I’d say 3-1/2 years later Russia can still jam Uncle Sam’s in electronic warfare. But this is just my amateurish guess.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Dec 31 2021 20:27 utc | 102

psychohistorian 100
I think there are big risks in what Russia is doing as they are dealing with crazies, but even larger risk for them if they don’t act now. This is the big facing down I have thought for some time would occurr. If it works out it will be a happy new year for me. Something I have wanted to see for a long time.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 31 2021 20:30 utc | 103

It’s very good to read Peter AU1 again, and many thanks for the reminder you posted of Putin’s promise to target Western elite hiding places and C&C structures in any initial hypersonic volley.
William Gruff provides an excellent outline of a point I’ve made since 2016 about the utter lack of a proper industrial base from which to prosecute war–weaponized money can easily be defeated.
Finally there’s the requirement to look at Russia/China as a team in this situation as it’s been clearly stated that the Outlaw US Empire brought this whole situation to their joint “doorsteps” and must now carry it off or face the repercussions the Empire will have brought onto itself–It will be the USA’s fault for incurring the damage it suffers due to not listening and acting to remove its threats. AND it will be the EU’s fault for subordinating itself to the whims of an Outlaw Empire.
As I wrote a few days ago, the cards lay on the table and it’s time to reveal the remaining hole card to see if Russia has more than two pair or the Outlaw US Empire filled its straight, or if the Empire will overturn the table and draw its 6-gun knowing it’s lost. A hint: Russia’s hole card contains the copyright for the deck being used and it also says Made in China.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 31 2021 20:49 utc | 104

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 31 2021 19:48 utc | 98

…If US does not pull back, Russian missiles will be set up equal flight time distance from US political and military command centers. Putin understands the danger of the situation but the American crazies do not.

Do you have any specific location in mind? That is, someplace on land rather than somewhere off the coast as they have had the ability to do since the early 60s?

Posted by: robin | Dec 31 2021 21:21 utc | 105

karlof1
Some time back we had a bit of a conversation about Putin – His empathy towards all people as well as to me his ability to be utterly ruthless when it comes to the protection of the Russian federation. With this I am reminded of the sword of Damocles. If the US does not pull back in Europe, all its political and military leadership will be sitting in Damocles throne, a horses hair away from destruction at all times.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 31 2021 21:25 utc | 106

Oriental Voice @102
Thank you.

Posted by: spudski | Dec 31 2021 21:30 utc | 107

robin
Venezuela came under US attack and Russian specialists flew over to ensure its security and take down US covert attacks, both cyber and mercenary infiltrators. Cuba came under renewed US attack under the Trump admin and Biden has not changed that.
I have seen nothing to indicate how Russia will set up its reciprocal response but land based component would make the threat look more permanent. I guess we will get to see when/if US does not decommission its systems in Europe.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 31 2021 21:40 utc | 108

karlof1 104
China may well make a move at a time and place of its Choosing. Like Russia, it will also need security guarantees.
Until know we’ve seen Russia make blocking moves in Ukraine and Syria but this may be the beginning of rolling back the US.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 31 2021 22:29 utc | 109

Oriental Voice @94
Absolutely. Reindustrialization is such a huge change for America that few can even visualize what it really means.
“A tax break here, a government contract there, and ‘Boom!!”, happy days are here again!”
Not that easy. Can anyone who has worked with American kids (and they stay kids these days well into what used to be adulthood… 30s and 40s) imagine them in a factory making Thunderbirds, for example? Has there even been an American pop song celebrating the working class this decade millennium? All today’s kids can imagine for themselves is being executives, hiphop stars, or racial equity and inclusion managers. You cannot rebuild a country with material like that. If America is to be rebuilt then the people who will do the rebuilding have not been born yet.

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 31 2021 22:53 utc | 110

Peter AU1 @109–
I’ve been doing my utmost to closely watch moves by both China and Russia to see how much common ground they share. IMO, the initiative now rests with them as the Outlaw US Empire has created its own massive dose of domestic chaos that IMO will worsen as the political system is now broken, thus the chaos. As Gruff and others note, the Empire has lost its ability to maintain its primacy, and it’s currently in no condition to regain it in the short-term–one presidential term–and perhaps not for several generations as I’ve opined. I could be wrong of course, but my sense is the current behind-the-scenes-crew isn’t willing to upset the table and will concede while being content to play with their hundreds of billions.
IMO, the time for opining has expired and all we can do now is wait and observe the next move before we can continue to opine. My focus is on our domestic situation as Jan 6 precedes the next round of talks, and numerous points were raised by Crooke in his latest essay that require attention. But at the moment New Years is at hand and that project will need to wait until the 2nd.
Try to enjoy the end of 2021. I know I’ll be glad to see it expire, but also know 2022 will hold its own surprises.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 31 2021 22:58 utc | 111

dp @95: “Just look how the USA during the height of the pandemic last year could even make masks.”
Tell me about it! America doesn’t even have to make anything, just get stuff from the freighters to the Walmart shelves, but supply chains still fall to pieces at the slightest push.

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 31 2021 23:11 utc | 112

karlof1
At the moment it looks as though Russia and China will quietly back each others moves, though perhaps there will be more Russian visibility in China’s moves as Russia has the better deterrent capability.
In my part of the world, the tail end of 2021 was last seen heading towards Africa about ten and a half hours ago. Hopefully this year we will see US power beginning to be rolled back without a major conflict breaking out.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 31 2021 23:31 utc | 113

karlof, quite some time back we had a bit of a conversation about Putin, both his empathy for people and what I believe is his ability to be completely ruthless when it comes to the protection of the Russian federation. There has been much speculation of what Russia may do in respect its security demands and all involve destruction of the cannon fodder, but going by what I have posted, Russia will be going for the head of the snake. Rather than the cannon fodder, it is those who have led the world to this point that will come under the constant threat of very short notice destruction. Very much a Damocles sword hanging over their heads.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 31 2021 23:42 utc | 114

@101 Peter AU1 said:

These bases are equally capable of launching nuclear armed cruise missiles. The base in Poland is only a few minutes flight time from Kaliningrad. Having those shut down will be a non negotiable part of Russia’s demands. Russian leadership have not publicly mentioned a word about this base in the recent demands which allows US to quietly shut it down while blustering to their domestic audience about Ukraine.

That was well worth repeating. Excellent to see you here, and thank you for the link to the source and that observation.
The red line, then, was already crossed, and Russia is insisting that the US walk back across it.
That sharpens our view greatly. Many thanks again!

Posted by: Grieved | Jan 1 2022 0:52 utc | 115

Much as LBJ couldn’t “lose” Vietnam, it looks like Biden can’t “lose” Eastern Ukraine, or any part of 1991 Ukraine, to US protectorization.
Putin’s primary goal is to block NATO expansion. Even annexing Donbass doesn’t fully do that.
Thus, the lose-lose option is annexation of Donbass by Russia. Neither Russia nor USA wants that. West Ukraine could become a NATO state, as the west wants, but not all of 1991 Ukraine.
How would a referendum in Donbass go?
IMO, this would merely be a restoration of the pre-Stalin borders of Ukraine. I’d hate to see things go this way, but it was US that has been pushing the ethnic card from the beginning, and elsewhere, and following 2014 this is the logical conclusion.

Posted by: Charles Peter Peters | Jan 1 2022 2:00 utc | 116

Posted by: Grieved | Jan 1 2022 0:52 utc | 115:
The red line, then, was already crossed, and Russia is insisting that the US walk back across it.
Poland, Hungary, and Czech were the first NATO expansion, in 1999. Putin’s demand is to roll NATO back to before that date. Yes, Russia is insisting NATO walk all the way back.
I think compromise may be worked out, such as no more NATO expansions period, while those that joined from 1999 onwards be restricted in military base deployment short of strategic/tactical nuclear weaponry capability. I think Putin may even be amenable to accept Ukraine/Georgia/Moldova membership in NATO if NATO pledge to render them teethless. They can talk ugly all they want, but they must not be capable of posing threat. If the demand isn’t met, then Russia is on record of saying they would wipe out what they perceive to be lethal threat as appropriate.
This would be viewed as a reasonable position by most people of the world.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jan 1 2022 4:49 utc | 117

Putin speaking to the Russian military and obviously the world at the military control center with generals either side. I have not seen this before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yA0Y6CpYcI
Apart from the US missile bases in Poland and Romania, I had wondered if Russian intel had solid information US had made the decision to base missiles in Ukraine. Putin speaks on missiles in Ukraine, but in this case it is about US hypersonic missiles rather than Tomahawks.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 1 2022 5:17 utc | 118

In 118, that should have been uniformed defense minister one side and general on the other.
Russia also test fired a salvo of hypersonic missiles a day or two back. We have moved back in time from Orwell’s 1984 to Cuban missile crisis 1962.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 1 2022 5:40 utc | 119

What are you lot on about? Americans and nay toe can flatten Russ air defenses quite easily with f35, decoys then a flood of harm and tomahawks, not to mention the amount of aircraft and drones NATO can field against Russ quite readily. As for industry, do you really think the us doesn’t currently produce any weaponry? Not UK, Sweden, Germany, France etc etc. You commit to wunderwaffen but forget the Americans et al will also have these and more classified systems yet to be revealed, I’m sorry but in a protracted conflict Russia would fair poorly, which is why they have encoded right to go nuclear if existence of state threatened, they know they can inflict significant losses on and attacker, but their defenses wouldn’t be enough over time, likely relying on which way China might sway for survival.

Posted by: The idiot | Jan 1 2022 13:17 utc | 120

hmmm….if the negotiations were shown live on tv or full recordings released afterwards…..could be interesting?

Posted by: Jo | Jan 1 2022 13:46 utc | 121

Is the Russian s-300 domestic use system better then the s-400 export version? Is the domestic s-400 better then the s-500 export version ? I’m confused on the operational differences.
Posted by: The Watcher | Dec 31 2021 16:01 utc | 80
I’m not surprised with your confusion. The S-300/350/400/500 systems that we know exist are all part of a family of products that include, amongst other elements, Transporter Erectors, various radars, many SAM versions, control units, etc. In the Russian way, all these elements have been, often individually, subject to continuing upgrade and improvement. Sometimes when the change is big enough a new number is warranted, like 400 or 500, or if less a new suffix, like 300PMU. Often its just upgraded od changed specification missiles.
The result is that it is very difficult to do performance comparisons vis a vis different systems especially as the Russians don’t exactly encourage it.

Posted by: JohninMK | Jan 1 2022 17:03 utc | 122

Posted by: The idiot | Jan 1 2022 13:17 utc | 120
Could I respectfully suggest that you do a bit of homework on the current capabilities of the Russian military? Given your comments the results will shock you following an examination of their air defence systems, both SAMs and aircraft.
The manufacturing capabilities would be pretty much irrelevant in a peer to peer war. It will be fought with what was in position when it started, mainly due to the lack of ports, airfields and other infrastructure still usable after a couple of days of the start of hostilities.
It is highly unlikely that any war would be protracted and there is a strong possibility that the rapid advance west of the Russian Army, see para 1 above, would cause it to be the US that went nuke first.

Posted by: JohninMK | Jan 1 2022 17:20 utc | 123

I am reading a ZH posting reporting that Russia test-fired around 10 new Tsirkon (Zircon) hypersonic cruise missiles from a frigate and two more from a submarine yesterday (somewhere)…grin
At the end of the posting there was the following quotes from Lavrov

On the Ukraine crisis, Russian FM Sergey Lavrov aid in his latest comments, “If a constructive response does not follow within a reasonable time and the West continues its aggressive line, then Russia will be forced to take all necessary measures to ensure a strategic balance and eliminate unacceptable threats to our security.”
“Our proposals are aimed at creating and legalising a new system of agreements based on the principle of the indivisibility of security and abandonment of attempts to achieve military superiority, which was approved unanimously by the leaders of all Euro-Atlantic states in the 1990s. I would like to emphasise that what we need is legally binding guarantees since our Western colleagues systematically fail to fulfill political obligations, not to mention voiced assurances and promises given to Soviet and Russian leaders”, Lavrov said.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jan 1 2022 17:55 utc | 124

Already done, Western forces would seek to overwhelm the AD so it couldn’t reply, this might be done with drones for example, take out the radar of s400, 500, 50000, whatever and it’s useless. Western militaries have stealth technology to reduce the firing distance so there’s far less time for radar or patrol aircraft to pick them up, they have drones for decoy and anti radar missiles that power off when detected and parachute before reactivating and firing again mid flight – they’ve been working on this kind of thing a long time, see f35, swarm tactics, rafale jamming etc, it’s not only Russia that develops high end weaponry. As for the ports and manufacturing etc, let’s just say there are many more in NATO and many more weapons developing and producing countries, sure it’s incredible what the USSR and more recently Russia were able to create, but that doesn’t mean that all the rest are completely useless, look at what the French jets achieved in Libya, undetected, what the Israelis continue to do in Syria, Lebanon, seemingly wherever they want and what the combined forces of NATO could do if brought into effect, just Turkey alone might prove a handful but then you have all the rest to consider, I think there’s a bit of bloodlust here, seeking vengeance, but it’s petty, you’re underestimating the larger picture, I think the Russ position is only for negotiating, just threat of force and demonstration, I doubt they want war but perhaps they’ll feel forced to act, however I also don’t think the Russians would want to use nuclear arms, they never have.

Posted by: The idiot | Jan 1 2022 18:28 utc | 125

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jan 1 2022 4:49 utc | 117

If the demand isn’t met, then Russia is on record of saying they would wipe out what they perceive to be lethal threat as appropriate.
This would be viewed as a reasonable position by most people of the world.

I very much doubt that a Russian out of the blue attack on Western sites would be perceived as appropriate by anyone. Because this is what we are talking about here if I’m reading these comments right.
Notwithstanding the implications of first strike in the context of mutually assured destruction, on the subject of image management, the West still holds the upper hand. Western marketers can successfully put a negative spin on just about anything and even purely defensive actions are perceived negatively.

Posted by: Charles Peter Peters | Jan 1 2022 2:00 utc | 116

Thus, the lose-lose option is annexation of Donbass by Russia. Neither Russia nor USA wants that. West Ukraine could become a NATO state, as the west wants, but not all of 1991 Ukraine.

Why do you think the US wouldn’t want Russia to invade Eastern Ukraine? Whatever loss that part of the world may represent to the West, a formal annexation wouldn’t change the picture from what it is today. On the other hand, an invasion and occupation would be a terrific narrative gain for the US. It would help establish an anti Russian consensus and make it easier to pressure 3rd parties into reducing ties with the East.
I predict the “with us or against us” meme will be making a strong comeback in the coming years.

Posted by: robin | Jan 1 2022 19:00 utc | 126

@robin, #126:
It’s not out of the blue. Russia has said that if the west doesn’t come up with acceptable counter proposals, by January of 2022, Russia will follow what it considers necessary. It could be surprise attacks any time from 2022 to whenever, or it could be deployment of certain weaponry that chill the spine of EU/NATO/Empire, or it could be anything that you as yet don’t have the imagination to conceive. In spirit, this stance is the same what JFK took. I for one think it reasonable.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jan 1 2022 19:45 utc | 127

CPP 116, I concur with your bleak prognostication, however, the problem lies with Odessa, it is majority Russian.
Although the Kievians have been doing their darnest to accomplish a genocidal cleanse of the area, one presumes with the advice of our dynamic DC duo of Kagan & Nuland, much butchery has yet to be done. The problem is, there are an awful lot of Ethnic Russians to slaughter and while the Kievians may act like Brownshirts, really they’re wannabees, they lack the industrial efficiency of the Germans.
So, if Russia goes all in and reunites the willing, Russian portion of Ukraine, say to the Dnieper River. Russia is left with a conundrum, it has a significant human interest in the well being of the oppressed Russians in Odessa. A majority of those Russians will certainly meet the same fate as Kievians forefathers visited upon the Ukrainian Jews [1941-44]. As I noted above, the genocidal maniacs in DC, such as Kagan & Nuland have prioritized that section of coastline, they plan on berthing an anti-Russian US fleet there.
As a side note, the CCCP must be wetting their pants with glee, knowing that the USA would willfully entrap entire fleet so far away from Taiwan. One would, quite reasonably assume that much, if not all, of the US political class was in the employ of the Chinese Communist Party; how else could one ever explain the stupidity of such a deployment? How such a fleet could ever support a war in the Western Pacific in a timely manner, if at all, beggars the imagination but, such is the time we live in. An empire is being traded away so that preening megalomaniacs can fawn over themselves.
The Odessa area is the real sticking point in making a clean break-up of Ukraine. Obama, a 3LA cutout if there ever was one, gleefully created a WW III tripwire in Ukraine for his successors. Politically, no matter how wise and moral a future President may be, the pressure to retain an empire’s stolen asset is enormous. Though Odessa is truly worthless in a real war of NATIONAL INTEREST, in peacetime/limited-war, the preening megalomaniacs of DC would make the loss of such a base an impeachable offense and God help the flag officer who points out to DCs self-serving dolts the role that logistics plays in military affairs.
As I have said before in jest, would that the Russians surgically decapitate the leadership in DC, the American populace would owe them a Medical fee for the excisement of a cancer from our body politic.

Posted by: S Brennan | Jan 1 2022 20:13 utc | 128

@Posted by: The idiot | Jan 1 2022 13:17 utc | 120
Such an apt handle! Stealth technology is not the equivalent of a “cloaking” device, it makes the plane appear smaller but not invisible. Also, longer wavelength systems can be used to spot such aircraft but with less precision. Another possibility is to separate the radar transmitters and receivers, so that the misdirected radar waves (by the stealth technology) have a better chance of being detected. Every military technology in history has been met with a counter-measure, stealth is no exception. Lets remember that during the 1990s Yugoslavian war stealth planes (F117) were hit by what were considered obsolete ground to air missile batteries. HARM is quite easy to defeat if you have the capability to produce lots of fake radar stations, also the Russians seem to be very good at jamming. Tomahawks are subsonic systems that the Russians in Syria have displayed a penchant for shooting down / jamming, and the launch platforms would then be easily targeted.
In the past few decades the US has never fought a technology advanced enemy with a strong military industrial base – Russia and China (and to some extent Iran) would be such enemies. In every war game with China the US loses, it seems the US military is a lot more understanding of the limitations of its military technology than you are.
Russia/China will be fighting around their own borders with compact supply lines, the US will be fighting over an ocean with very long and easily interdicted supply lines (something Napoleon and Hitler learnt in Russia!). Also, the US bases (Korea, Japan, Baltic States, Ukraine, Poland, Germany etc.) in the area would be a smouldering wreck within the first few hours of combat, leaving just a navy that would not be able to get anywhere near the Chinese coasts.
JohninMK is correct, the war would be fought with what is in place as resupply would be next to impossible given current missile and submarine capabilities – during the times of the Cold War the US understood that the only way to stop the Soviet army would be going nuclear. They are in the same place now.
“Specifically, a simulated adversary that has studied the American way of war for decades managed to run rings around U.S. forces, defeating them decisively. “They knew exactly what we’re going to do before we did it,” Gen. John Hyten, Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, revealed at an industry event.
While Hyten did not disclose the name of the wargame (it’s classifed), he did say that one of the exercises focused exclusively on a brawl between U.S. and Chinese forces fighting over Taiwan—a scenario that seems increasingly likely.”
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a37158827/us-military-failed-miserably-in-taiwan-invasion-wargame/

Posted by: Roger | Jan 1 2022 20:15 utc | 129

@Posted by: S Brennan | Jan 1 2022 20:13 utc | 128
The Russians would need to take the whole Black Sea coastal area, linking up with Moldavia. That then just leaves a rump UkroNazi state with very little resources apart from agriculture. It also puts Russia right next to Romania. Shame that this would still not link up with Hungary, which would provide a land wedge through the Balkans with Serbia. Yeltsin and Gorbachev really did do a good job of crippling the ex Soviet Union without a shot being fired (excluding the NATO aggression against Yugoslavia).

Posted by: Roger | Jan 1 2022 20:23 utc | 130

Below is a ZH link showing the geo-political pot stirring going on
Turkey Tells Russia To Drop “One-Sided” & “Maximalist” NATO Demands
Erdogan is wanting to keep selling drones to Ukraine…..

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jan 1 2022 21:12 utc | 131

Many of the “solutions” proposed here have come down to “I have a bigger boom, boom than you”. Leaving out any sort of modern asysmetric warfare, and coordinated PR. For once Russia has created an unsure situation for the West.
There is another “mini” scenario possible, which could leave Russia as the “defender” with right on it’s side in the minds of the Eurasians (including the EU peninsula). To a certain extent this is also dependent on the weather and the timing to be a sucess.
**
“Donbas” declares that the Minsk proposal is going nowhere after 8 years of fighting, and that the numbers of dead from Ukrainian troops and mercenaries mean that they could no longer be part of Ukraine itself. Discrimination against them makes such a solution nul and void. So they decide they should seceede from Ukraine, and hold a referendum. After which they call on Russia to protect them while they apply for integration into Russia itself. (à la Crimea).
What happens? Zelensky cracks up. Not difficult as he is already taking some sort of crack. Would he try to send in troops, or might NATO do it for him?. Either way the NatoZelees’s would be the aggressor, and the Donbas the victims in the public eye. This is the Key as Zelensky can either do or don’t. If he does he might lose more than just the area around Donbas.
Note that the “front” lines are already delimited and fortified. No extension is proposed, and then, if the Russians decide to “help”….. All is in place, from newly created means to get a Russian Passport (Some 600’000 have already been issued?), salaries have been equalized, and all that would be necessary is an air defensive cover and some close support around the perimeter. Send in “trainers” as the US does. (I presume that there are snipers both Russian and NATO in operation already. Snipers being the only way to carry on fighting without risking too many air attacks, – a lesson learnt from Syria and Idlib).
This does not lead automatically to heavy fighting. “Sanctions”, which in any case are being increased at regular intervals on Russia without any provocations, will continue. NS2 is there for any later peace settlement.
It does NOT lead to a cleaning up of Ukraine, but at this point it is NATO that is the Russia’s chief worry. The unstable Nzi amateur mercenaries that are now living in trenches around Donbas, would then be facing directly a superior force.
**
Timing. Early or mid February seems about right, as it is still cold and the ground mi-useable.
***
However, this would only be a local answer to a local problem. The major demands of Russia will still have to be met, once Donbas is out of the way.
***
I think Putin and Shoigu will also pull something else out of a hat. That will be coordinated with the problems the US will face in Iraq and Syria, where they are coming under increasing resistance from the inhabitants. (Already visible, with three attacks earlier, this time using RPG’s)
***
PS. the Israeli air attack on Latakia was visibly to draw out Russian Radar defenses. That they did not react is, either they didn’t work, or they are keeping secret a newer type of radar/defensive system.

Posted by: Stonebird | Jan 1 2022 21:49 utc | 132

@131 Erdogan should spend more time in the Buyuk Carsi. Deals are always struck by asking more than one expects to get.

Posted by: dh | Jan 1 2022 22:04 utc | 133

@Posted by: psychohistorian | Jan 1 2022 21:12 utc | 131
Perhaps Erdogan wants the Ottoman Ukraine back! The guy does not know when to STFU, his economy is imploding and he needs to choose which side he is going to. At exactly that point he slaps Putin in the face. Elections in Turkey in 2023 …

Posted by: Roger | Jan 1 2022 22:15 utc | 134

Bhadrakumar analyses the U.S. “Beltway” positions after Thursday call:
“The think tankers in Washington are pouring over Russia’s options in binary terms — an outright invasion of Ukraine or a limited incursion plus deployment of Russian troops to Donbas.”
https://www.indianpunchline.com/us-shows-the-exit-ramp-to-russia/
i.e. the Minsk accords do not exist to the Americans, the narrative framing and negotiating positions are based on anticipated “Russian aggression”. The purported aggression extends to the demands over regional security, by which the Americans initial negotiating position will reject. Unnamed U.S. spokesperson – “our position is very clear that these (NATO membership) are decisions to be made by sovereign countries, obviously in consultation with the Alliance, and not for others to determine.”
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2021/12/30/background-press-call-on-president-bidens-call-with-president-putin-of-the-russian-federation/
The backgrounder states that Biden’s positions are coming in the main from Blinken and Sullivan.

Posted by: jayc | Jan 1 2022 23:53 utc | 135

The idiot @120
You have a point, and I am not talking about the one on the top of your head. Should all the you’re a peein` bearded ladies and vagina boys start shambling eastward in a mad bum rush like some sort of grotesque Special Olympics marathon, then the Russians will certainly have a problem on their hands. The sheer number of degenerate freaks from western Europe would hit Russia’s borders like a California sewage leak. There’d be no stopping it. You wouldn’t even need the tsunami of lard from the US to overwhelm Russia’s resistance to nausea in that scenario. That is why I specified Russia vs the US.
It is important that I repeat, though: Major wars don’t end with the weapons that they start with. Russia can shoot down F-35s faster than the US can make them, and that is why the US will lose.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 2 2022 0:22 utc | 136

@135 “…these (NATO membership) are decisions to be made by sovereign countries….”
and which courageous sovereign country will be the first to say no thanks to US/NATO?

Posted by: dh | Jan 2 2022 0:30 utc | 137

@137 Apologies to Switzerland, Austria, Sweden and Finland Who seem to get along OK without NATO’s warm embrace.

Posted by: dh | Jan 2 2022 0:39 utc | 138

well they gave themselves the right name, lol… have to give them credit for that much!

Posted by: james | Jan 2 2022 2:17 utc | 139

Russia blocked US moves into Ukraine to an extent, but US have since set up Ukraine as another Afghanistan, a trap they want to draw Russia into. With US moving missiles into Europe, then pulling out of most treaties, we are back to the point in time that US placed nuke missiles in Turkey pointed at the Soviet Union. US will field hypersonic missiles in the not too distant future and they may well use the same canister/launcher as the Tomahawks and ABM missiles.
To get the US missiles out of turkey, the soviet union placed missiles in Cuba rather than start a war. The Yank hierarchy must not like having a gun against their head as they pulled their missiles out of Turkey.
According to smoothie it was Soviet advances in missile tech that brought about the various treaties. Russia wants to get back to that stable situation, no missiles on each others doorstep and agreements that limit other things to create strategic balance.
Putin has mentioned that threats will be reciprocal and decision making and command centers in the US will be targeted from equal flying time distances. Whatever happens won’t be a copy of the past as Putin is an original thinker, but it will be aimed at getting back to the pre 2002 ABM treaty strategic balance.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 2 2022 2:31 utc | 140

@William Gruff
F35’s are so expensive that the US has only about 300 of them. Combined with the in air / maintenance time ratio (about 1 to 5 or higher in peacetime) it will not take long to remove them from the air – including removing their landing sites.

Posted by: Roger | Jan 2 2022 4:26 utc | 141

Below is a ZH link that has a good map showing the year wise expansion of NATO
“Imperialist Russia?” Four Western Provocations That Led To The Current US-Russia Crisis
ZH has its limitations but at least it isn’t Reuters

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jan 2 2022 5:46 utc | 142

It took us longer, it took Russia almost 15 years to learn how to cope and stand up against the empire of world chaos. But in China s turn it’s arriving fast and solid, the empire will fall to its knees sooner than we had anticipated. Learning fast including the sensitive area of soft power as we see from the chancellor, from the prompt press reactions, from the very area of outer Space saga and public image of chinese austronauts.

Posted by: augusto | Jan 2 2022 12:11 utc | 143

Macron is now president of the European Union for six months,could not wait to replace the french flag with the european flag on the Arc de Triomphe,where lies the unknown soldier.
Much less reported is the fact that France is now commanding the 40000 soldiers of the Rapid European Intervention Batallion for the whole of the year 2022,making it quite sure that russian bombs will fall on France in case of military action of this elite army.
The EU has no army,but the treaty of Maastricht donates its defense to NATO,even though not all its members are in it.
All this and more fits well in with the overall destruction that Macron brought already on France,its reputation,its culture and its people,who are mostly asleep,if not hypnotized.
Very few know that it is the neoliberal Cabinet McKinsey that leads the way in the covid scheme in France,costing over a billion a year,one of its members being the son of the president of the Constitutional Court.Likewise its McKinsey making the rules in Germany,one of its members being David von der Leyen,son of Ursula von der Leichen.In other european countries the same configuration plays out.
Macron just decorated Agnès Buzyn with the the Legion d’Honneur,in a unmasked ceremony.She was the health minister that took out hydroxychloroquine out of the market just two weeks into 2020,as well as some other anti-viral and anti-parasite products.Her husband Yves Levy was the guy that put up the Wuhan P4 laboratory.It’s such a small world of criminal aristocrats,but they decide everything,and the people just execute.From now on it’s mask obligation in the streets of Paris (but inside the bistro you can take it off to drink unless you are standing upright,in which case it is prohibited to the barkeeper to serve you.)Mask obligation for children in class from 6 yo on.Forbidden to eat or drink something in the train.This is so crazy and utterly dictatoresque,I can’t find the words to express my discomfort.

Posted by: jonas | Jan 2 2022 12:38 utc | 144

Putin has mentioned that threats will be reciprocal and decision making and command centers in the US will be targeted from equal flying time distances.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 2 2022 2:31 utc | 140

This is untrue and potentially dangerous.
Here is what Putin actually said:

I am saying this directly and openly now, so that no one can blame us later, so that it will be clear to everyone in advance what is being said here. Russia will be forced to create and deploy weapons that can be used not only in the areas we are directly threatened from, but also in areas that contain decision-making centres for the missile systems threatening us.
What is important in this regard? There is some new information. These weapons will fully correspond to the threats directed against Russia in their technical specifications, including flight times to these decision-making centres.
We know how to do this and will implement these plans immediately, as soon as the threats to us become real. I do not think we need any further, irresponsible exacerbation of the current international situation. We do not want this.

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/59863
You see? The British understand this.

Sergey Lavrov: Yes. Vladimir Zelensky acts recklessly quite often. They are afraid of this recklessness because simple foolishness (which the Western media are increasingly pointing out) may start a conflict that nobody needs.
Vladimir Solovyov: The UK said honestly that if anything starts in Ukraine they will leave immediately.
Sergey Lavrov: Evacuation. What else are the armed forces for?
Vladimir Solovyov: They will leave fast.

Posted by: John Cleary | Jan 2 2022 13:18 utc | 145

The fundamental problem that no negotiations will ever resolve is that America is a sociopathic empire and people, who possess a fanatical belief that they have a God-given right to rule the world … under the pretext of defending America’s Goebbelsian version of “freedom and democracy.”
Manifest Destiny is fundamental to the political and cultural DNA of the American Empire.
As such, any agreement that America makes is merely an empty promise that will be violated when the opportunity arises in order to fulfill American’s ambitions for full spectrum dominance of the planet.
This is why America repeatedly wages its multiple wars of aggression against nations like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Serbia, Syria, and elsewhere–slaughtering over a million people as a result–and most political “opposition’ that you hear from the Americans is a pathetic Pity Party about the cost in blood, treasure, and power … for themselves.
Indeed, the primary “dissent” from Americans is only a debate about *tactics* to achieve the agreed upon goal of maintaining and expanding the American Evil Empire against all its enemies, firstly Russia and China and then Iran.
In the USA, there are Red State war criminals like Donald Trump and all his political followers. And there are Blue State war criminals like Joe Biden and all his political followers. But they are all criminals just the same.
American elites are certainly sociopaths–but they are only a reflection of sociopathic Americans themselves, who support, campaign for, or elect these leaders in the first place.
Every nation deserves the regime and rulers that they have.
As such, America deserves to reap at home all the wars that it has inflicted upon the world.
That is likely what will be America’s final “manifest destiny.”

Posted by: ak74 | Jan 3 2022 3:46 utc | 146

RE: Posted by b on December 30, 2021 at 17:27 UTC | Permalink
“Putin obviously wants to keep the pressure on the U.S. to..”
As illustrated above, we-the-people-hold-these-truths-to-be-self-evidentness is not only popular, but useful.

Posted by: NotEuclid | Jan 7 2022 13:14 utc | 147

RE: Posted by: ak74 | Jan 3 2022 3:46 utc | 146
“As such, any agreement that America makes is merely an empty promise that will be violated when the opportunity arises in order to fulfill American’s ambitions for full spectrum dominance of the planet.”
Perhaps two comments placed elsewhere will add to “discovery”.
““…. an essentially free hand to make war around the world. “
War is not restricted to things that go bang, but includes things that go bang.
War is a type of coercive interaction in which the coercive social relations self-misrepresented as “The United States of America” has been engaged both externally and internally even before their self-misrepresented “official inception” in 1776.
Since war is an interaction it is not possible for one interlocutor to assign itself a free hand – except in their beliefs and hopes – since the counter-party will react in differing forms over time as functions of facility, including opportunities afforded by the coercive social relation self-misrepresented as “The United States of America”.
Consequently “the proliferation of U.S. military targets since U.S. Congress gave ….”
a proliferation of others the motivation and opportunities to engage in wars not limited to things that go bang, in order to transcend “The United States of America” rendering “The United States of America” more dis-united both externally and internally. “
plus
“That is one of the prime purposes of the media – every page a sports page.
As in “the Cold War” which was never cold, “The Soviet Union” and “The United States of America” required one another for their mutual sustainability as Mr. Kennan eventually perceived – Mr. Orwell’s Eurasia and Oceania in 1984 refers.
The dances of “coercive relations of representative/virtual socialism” v “coercive relations of representative/virtual democracy” – in lateral process of transcendence through the receding half-lives of “The Soviet Union” and “The United States of America” via various vectors at varying velocities.
Many of the “current problems” are functions of the acceleration of this process from 1943 onwards, through which “the West” sawed the branch upon which they were sitting and announced “We won the cold war”.”
Not all assign the same significance to others that others seek to assign to themselves.
When the coercive social relations self-misrepresented as “The United States of America” ‘s representatives announced the end of history and the search for full spectrum dominance in interaction with others, some in a far away land of which “The United States of America” apparently knew little or nothing, celebrated by sending out for blinis to take with afternoon tea.
““As such, any agreement that America makes is merely an empty promise that will be violated when the opportunity arises in order to fulfill American’s ambitions for full spectrum dominance of the planet.”
Some who took afternoon tea with blinis in the early 1990’s, had delivered similar advice to the Politburo in 1969 which the Politburo chose to ignore on the understanding that “The Soviet Union” and “The United States of America” required one another for their mutual sustainability, opting instead to explore detente on the bases of spheres of influence, facilitating their complicity in the subsequent alchemy of gold into paper and consequences contingent there upon.
Others whose advice was ignored in 1969 who understood that “The Soviet Union” was unsustainable for even more various reasons, progressively affected alternative arrangements of “How to drown a drowning man with the minimum of blowback ?”

Posted by: NotEuclid | Jan 7 2022 14:00 utc | 148

Talks resume on Monday. Some US hints of compromise and the usual sanctions threats if Russia invades Ukraine.
“… the administration would be open to discussions with Russia on curtailing possible future deployments of offensive missiles in Ukraine and putting limits on U.S. and NATO military exercises in Eastern Europe.”
https://ca.yahoo.com/news/us-open-limiting-military-exercises-193528798.html

Posted by: dh | Jan 9 2022 0:27 utc | 149