Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 17, 2021
Omicron Update

Three weeks ago the world found out that there was a new variant of the SARS-CoV-2 virus which had lots of mutation. The variant, named  Omicron by the World Health Organization, seemed to spread way faster than any previously known ones.

Little else was known about Omicron at that time:

There are many open question about the new variant of concern:

  • How fast does this variant really spread?
  • Is it more infectious?
  • Does it cause a more severe illness?
  • Is it more deadly?
  • How well do the vaccines hold up against it?

From the current data none of those questions can yet be answered. It will take two to four weeks to find out.

Some of those questions can by now be answered. Others are still open as there seems to be contradicting evidence for either side.

  • How fast does this variant really spread?

Very fast. Britain has seen a doubling of new Omicron cases every 2.5 days. In London Omicron is now the dominant variant. New York City sees a rapid rise of positive Coviod-19 tests:

New York City’s Covid-19 positivity rate doubled in just three days as the city battles a virus surge ahead of the holidays, Dr. Jay Varma, a top health advisor to Mayor Bill de Blasio, tweeted Thursday.

From Dec. 9 to Dec. 12, the percentage of positive tests in the city spiked from 3.9% to 7.8%. “This is #SARSCoV2 evading both vaccine & virus induced immunity against infection unlike any variant before,” Varma added.

In Denmark, which has an excellent surveillance system, the Omicron variant already made up 34% of all Covid-19 cases on December 14. The number will be much higher today. The vaccination rate in Denmark is over 90%. Denmark also sees a silent community spread and has had super spreading events with large numbers of infected people.

  • Is it more infectious?

It is obvious by now that the current vaccines do not protect one from becoming infected with Omicron.

On November 26 some 111 participants took part in a Christmas party in Oslo, Norway. All were vaccinated. The invent was indoor and no masks were worn. 80 participants were diagnosed as infected with SARS-CoV-2. Over 70% of those cases reported several Covid symptoms. Only one case was completely asymptomatic.

Compared to all other variants Omicron is definitely more transmissible and infectious. It is therefore even more important to keep ourselves protected by non-pharmaceutical measures, i.e. masks and good ventilation, as much as possible.

  • Does it cause a more severe illness?

We still do not know for sure.

The news from South Africa, where the Omicron variant was found first, is uplifting:

South Africa delivered some positive news on the omicron coronavirus variant on Friday, reporting a much lower rate of hospital admissions and signs that the wave of infections may be peaking.

Only 1.7% of identified Covid-19 cases were admitted to hospital in the second week of infections in the fourth wave, compared with 19% in the same week of the third delta-driven wave, South African Health Minister Joe Phaahla said at a press conference.

Health officials presented evidence that the strain may be milder, and that infections may already be peaking in the country’s most populous province, Gauteng.

Still, new cases in that week of the current wave were more than 20,000 a day, compared with 4,400 in the same week of the third wave. That’s further evidence of omicron’s rapid transmissibility, which a number of other countries, such as the U.K., are also now experiencing.

Here is more detailed data from South Africa. The hospitalization rate is much lower than in earlier waves. Hospital stay time is also significant reduced.

Absolute Covid-19 death in South Africa have not increased despite a huge wave of Omicron cases.

However, death through Covid-19 is usually only three to four weeks after the onset of symptoms. The number of death in South Africa could still go up. One has also to consider that the season in South Africa is currently summer while the northern countries are now in winter times during which respiratory illnesses usually hit harder. South Africa had also had a high rate of immunity through prior infections and it has a relative young population.

Contrast South Africa with a modeling study by the Imperial College in London which found that Omicron could be just as severe as the Delta variant which had caused the previous wave. 'Could' is the operative word here. Modeling must be based on data and we have too little yet to make really good predictions.

Side note:

A university in Hong Kong has made experiments with Omicron in cells from the upper bronchia and in cells deeper within the lungs. The researchers found that Omicron infects and reproduces in upper bronchia cells much better than earlier variants while it infects less cells than other variants more deep within the lungs. (The paper on the study is not out yet and I have only heard a discussion of the preliminary report on a German public radio podcast today.)

If the findings from Hong Kong turn out to be true they could explain the higher transmissibility of Omicron as well as the lower death rate.

Covid-19 caused by non-Omicron variants starts with the replication of viruses in the upper respiratory tract. About a week after first symptoms the virus wanders down into the lower respiratory tract and into the lungs. This is when hospitalization is usually necessary as oxygen shortages will follow and the immune system will start to go berserk and attack the body itself.

A higher growth of Omicron in the upper part of the bronchia would explain the higher transmissibility of Omicron as more virus could be emitted through breathing and speaking. A lower growth in the lower parts of the respiratory system would explain the lower number of hospital admittances in South Africa.

The evolutionary explanation for the above would be a typical optimization of the virus variant for total distribution. More transmissibility helps with that while killing the host does not.

Please take this side note with a large pinch of salt as no extensive paper from Hong Kong has yet been peer reviewed of published. While it is a possible explanation for what can be seen in the data from South Africa other effects could play more significant roles.

  • Is it more deadly?

So far the answer for Omicron infections seems to be no. But that does not mean that there will be less death.

The Omicron infection wave will try to drown all of us. The numbers in the U.S. easily could go up to a million new infections per day. It will be impossible to get PCR test results as the number of new cases will exceed all testing capacities.

If there is a 2% hospitalization rate like in South Africa that would mean 20,000 new hospital admittances per day in the U.S. With a high number of cases all health care systems will get swamped with serious cases even if the rate of hospitalization per case is low. Emergency services for other illnesses will be restricted and such restrictions mean triage and a higher number of all causes death than usual.

  • How well do the vaccines hold up against it?

The vaccines do not protect against an infection with Omicron. From the perspective of transmissibility we are all not vaccinated. But the vaccinations still help.

The vaccines used in the 'west' were all based on the spike protein of the original Wuhan variant. The various antibodies the immune system has build against the spike proteins cover specific small regions of it. Many of these epitomes have changed with Omicron which has had 30 mutations within the RNA part of its genome that defines the spike protein. Some spike regions that could be attacked by antibodies against the original spike protein will no longer exist. New ones will have formed. That is why most monoclonal antibodies that have worked as therapy against the original spike will not help against Omicron.

However some of the various antibodies that were formed during vaccination will still be able to do their job. There are also the B-memory cells which have built those  antibodies against the vaccine spike and which still exist in our bodies. B-memory cells 'ripen' over time and can then create more variants of antibodies as they did when they were first activated. There are also memory T-cells created against the vaccine spike which tend to attack on a wider range than antibodies and which do not care much about tiny mutations.

Even without a booster vaccine the first two shots have prepared the body for fighting the virus and will likely prevent a severe case of Omicron Covid-19 illness.

But any Convid-19 infection, even when 'mild', is still causing some violent symptoms and is putting the body through very high stress. Covid-19 is not a flu or a simple influenza. It is way worse. There is also long Covid which effects some 10% of all who had a Covid infection. It still causes serious symptoms up to a year after the infection and we have no therapy against it.

My advice to everyone is therefore to avoid an infection as much as possible. Mask up whenever you enter public transport or a building other than your home. Avoid being in crowds. Always seek good ventilation.

This too shall pass.

New vaccines will become available. Better therapies will be found. More people will be immunized.

The waves of Covid infections that come after this one will likely have lower peaks and look more like a typical seasonal influenza wave. Some people will still die from Covid just as people die each year from influenza. Covid is on its way to become a normal disease.

We will all have to get used to it.


Note:

I will police the comments in this thread. Any hyping of unproven medications and other not science based speculations will be removed and might get you banned.

Comments

In belgium they cant travel abroad without mandatory test upon arrival even if vaccinated or cured from covid. Check google belgium plf.
Collective punishment for the sake of protecting the wealthy local expats/eurocrats.

Posted by: Julie | Dec 18 2021 16:22 utc | 101

The Strategic Advisory Group of ‘Experts’ (SAGE) calls the shots now:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018825067/prof-peter-mcintyre-refocusing-covid-19-vaccine-strategies
Who can argue with a WHO ‘expert’ ?

Posted by: Paul | Dec 18 2021 16:25 utc | 102

a voice crying in the wilderness, not the only one fortunately, is b.
it’s depressing to read the comments. everyone’s an expert, the plain experience of China means nothing, so much more fun to argue about the great reset and FEMA camps, when if a person knew the slightest thing about capitalism, they would know the goal of capitalist gov’ts (incl Russia) has always been and always will be to do as little as possible about any problem that interrupts the system.
there is no plan other than that. the USG is too lazy to set up FEMA camps for the unvaxxed.
but people are at war with each other. they gloat that their neighbors are going to die b/c of how dumb they were b/c they did (or did not) get vaxxed. there is no “public” in health to the capitalist swine whose success requires someone else or that person’s kid or dad to die, just so the little piggy can snort and grunt about being “right”.
thank god for global warming cuz this shit’s not gonna last.

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Dec 18 2021 16:31 utc | 103

@rjb1.5 | Dec 18 2021 16:31 utc | 106

the USG is too lazy to set up FEMA camps for the unvaxxed.

Oh, so that isn’t a conspiracy theory anymore?

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 18 2021 16:38 utc | 104

it’s too bad the vaccines don’t go all NRA on the virus. why can’t life be like it is when i’m pulling the trigger at the gun range or wasting bobcats with my assault rifles?
i’m a go sit in my pickup truck and rev my engine louder and louder cuz that makes everything all right.
how dare those nancy boys in the NFL succumb to a fake virus? the antichrist must be upon us! thank God one person, our lawful president, is telling the truth – about the Jews. i feel better already.

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Dec 18 2021 16:44 utc | 105

there is no plan other than that. the USG is too lazy to set up FEMA camps for the unvaxxed.
Posted by: rjb1.5 | Dec 18 2021 16:31 utc | 106
Seriously, easier said than done. For example, I am a dutiful vaccinated legal resident, but I have no PROOF of my exemplary record, except a card with three stickers and dates, and a place in which I can ink my name. The stickers do not seem very “secure”.
In other words, what we have here is good for keeping track, which is good, and for begging some authorities for documents that may be needed for international travel. I guess USA could copy legal solutions from feudal Poland. If you want to prove something, there is a prescribed number and feudal status of persons who would swear to God on your behalf. For example, marital virtue of a Queen was proven by oaths of 10 knights and 10 noble matrons. I guess a commoner and commoner matron should suffice to attest the vaccination status of a commoner with appropriate oaths. It could be efficiently organized…

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Dec 18 2021 16:51 utc | 106

Norwegian | Dec 18 2021 16:38 utc | 107
it’s only what it’s ever been: bullshit.
they gonna do something different with corona patients than with the victims of hurricanes and wildfires?
if the USG gave a shit about the virus, why hasn’t hospital staffing been improved? b/c what matters is the market, not public health. there’s no money in it in improving public health.
much cheaper to let people die than to build FEMA camps. because that only requires society to do what it’s been doing: not a goddam thing.

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Dec 18 2021 16:51 utc | 107

A source would be good for that claim that 10% of cases end up with long covid. I wonder what the definition of that is.

Posted by: Dave | Dec 18 2021 16:54 utc | 108

The shots do not prevent infection, they reduce death in the old and infirm. Fine, but I do not trust the corporatochracy to give a shyte about us.
Forcing 5 year olds to be injected when they are not in any danger what-so-ever is not about saving lives.
Claimed eugenecists are a party to its development.
Billionaires are buying the world and it seems to be happening all at once.
Of course something is afoot
The pharma-suits refuse to release the information about development and release of this gene therapy until 2077… that alone is enough to shy me off any ‘vaccine’ being forced upon the world.
I have heard a shit-load of lies and misinformation from experts and elected officials.
The censorship of information that goes against the narrative is burried and ridiculed by the powers even when they are proven wrong.
Today they announced it was airborne… seriously? that is OLD information. The ‘science’ is behind public knowledge.
Up til now we had a place to gather and openly discuss.
at your discretion b I post this littly ditty I wrote
Divided We Fall
Don’t hide amongst the Heard
Don’t look the other way
and don’t believe a single word
of what they have to say
You better speak out while you can
better formulate a plan
Cuz this may be your final chance
to stand against The Man
They are silencing our voice
they control our every move
So much fuckery is happening
but there’s nothing we can prove
We can feel the velvet chains
grow shorter every day
and as of late they take less pains
to hide their power play
We must put antipathy aside
if we hope to change the course
we must cross the great divide
and join each other as one force
It’s time to oppose
those upon the throne
and take away their power
because they wish to own
the souls of those who meekly stand
divided and alone
Won’t you stand with me Brother
Won’t you join me in the Fight
Shoulder to shoulder
It’s time to set things right
Together we can do it
Together we are strong
Together we will shift the tide
The Battle has begun.

Posted by: ld | Dec 18 2021 16:57 utc | 109

Piotr Berman | Dec 18 2021 16:51 utc | 109
public health measures = communism. Biden, Trump, Pelosi, McConnell, the Sulzbergers, CNN, econ-Messiah Musk, health Messiah Bill Gates, etc., etc., aka “the ruling class,” they all agree on that.
people who life off the stock market are having a gay old time. the economic ruination of the West’s policies has zero impact on the people making those policies. so let’s all please stop bitching about how the virus has ruined our horrible work lives. it wasn’t the virus. and what kind of a slave wants to go back to work for Taco Bell and Target?

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Dec 18 2021 17:02 utc | 110

teachers and educational staff are, rightly, fleeing the profession b/c the US cares so much about its kids.
we’ve built a system that can’t reproduce itself. the people who benefit from it could care less.
—-
one of the many problems w/the latest star wars trilogy is: where did the First Order come from? they got their money from Big Pharma, that’s where.
and the Resistance is the anti-vaxxers. Join the Rebellion today! free hydrochloroquinine when you sign up!

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Dec 18 2021 17:08 utc | 111

London Freedom Rally (live)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX0Z1w2qukE

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 18 2021 17:09 utc | 112

Norwegian | Dec 18 2021 17:09 utc | 116
needs more motorcycles, guns and confederate flags.
oh, and uh, some people.

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Dec 18 2021 17:32 utc | 113

@117 ….and a few dumpster fires….

Posted by: dh | Dec 18 2021 17:42 utc | 114

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Dec 18 2021 13:45 utc | 97
I think the anecdote was more along the lines of armor being implemented not where statistics can be collected about bullet hits precisely because those were found on surviving planes. Armor should be placed where we don’t find bullet hits.
Details on that story towards the end of this article under “A guide on how to protect WWII bomber planes”

Posted by: GN | Dec 18 2021 17:55 utc | 115

@rjb1.5
re: FEMA camps for unvaxxed
You must mean camps for anyone who has been infected or contact traced. Because vaccinated people still get infected and still infect others. Keep it accurate.
Now I don’t particularly want to have that discussion, but I’m sure you’ll find others here happy to debate it with you.

Posted by: ptb | Dec 18 2021 18:08 utc | 116

Omicron-> Lung cell infectivity reduced, consistent with Hong Kong findings:
HKUMed finds Omicron SARS-CoV-2 can infect faster and better than Delta in human bronchus but with less severe infection in lung
Which, added to immunity wall of vaccination, would help reduce potential of Covid pneumonia 👍 Text

This is definitely good news, bronchitis is not as serious as pneumonia.
But it is not a joke neither, especially for smokers, people with asthma etc.

Posted by: hopehely | Dec 18 2021 18:11 utc | 117

@nurse.comic | Dec 17 2021 19:39 utc | 4
I cannot fathom those who dismiss this novel virus/vaccines as some kind of plot. Medical staff around the country are exhausted and burnt out and wondering how so many people can get so twisted up in their ideas of rights/responsibilities.
Most Americans are dimly aware that their country royally bungled its response to Covid-19. So they are in the first of the five stages of grief: denial. The grief is not only for themselves or their loved ones, but for the country as well. They can see that nearly all its institutions are rotting, even the fundamental ones such as medical care; the great America is no more. So some people just deny, deny.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 18 2021 18:15 utc | 118

@c1ue | Dec 17 2021 22:11 utc | 30
It is far from clear the vaccines protect anyone from getting COVID infections of any variation.
Vaccines never protect anyone from infection; a vaccine just trains your body to fight a specific virus if it bites you. So the virus has less time to multiply inside your body, and you are much less likely to die from the pathogen. This is what we are seeing.
Which is why I will be observing the deaths vs. infections number. So far in 2021, the vaccinations have not had any visible effect on the deaths vs. infections ratio. I’m not saying zero – I am, however, saying it is nowhere near “65% or 95%” efficacy.
I have no idea what you mean by “95% efficacy”. We do however have real data that vaccinated people are three to five times less likely to die from Covid-19 than unvaccinated.
At least you aren’t peddling a fake graph any more that purports to “prove” that up to twice as many people in the US have died from Covid-19 this year than last year. Both Johns Hopkins and www dot Worldometers dot info/coronavirus/country/us/ flatly contradict the graph.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 18 2021 18:21 utc | 119

@DanieleB (50) “As a conclusion, if the goal was to prevent the death of ill and old people, it would have been wise to vax only these with serious illness and old.”
I would remind you that when the current Covid vaccines were developed in late 2020, they were effective in preventing infection with the original Wuhan strain. Unfortunately, they are much less effective in preventing infection with the Delta strain and presumably the Omicron strain. As to only the elderly and persons with certain underlying conditions being the only ones at risk of dying from Covid-19, that is untrue. Many younger and healthy people have died as well, though at a lower rate than the former group.
More importantly, the failure to vaccinate a very high percentage of people who live in poor countries is what leads to the evolution of new and more infectious strains of the Covid viruses, such as Delta and Omicron. Such unvaccinated populations are like a fertile field waiting for seeds to land, take root and evolve. The key is to vaccinate them with vaccines that will lower drastically the number of infected individuals. We have a lot of catching up to do.

Posted by: Rob | Dec 18 2021 18:22 utc | 120

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Dec 18 2021 16:51 utc | 109

I guess USA could copy legal solutions from feudal Poland. If you want to prove something, there is a prescribed number and feudal status of persons who would swear to God on your behalf.

You needed that in Canada to get passport still in early 2000s. They got rid of that meanwhile I think but I am not sure.

Posted by: hopehely | Dec 18 2021 18:26 utc | 121

Posted by: ptb | Dec 18 2021 18:08 utc | 120

Because vaccinated people still get infected and still infect others.

Well if those others are vaccinated too, it should not be a problem. In fact, it will make them even stronger.

Posted by: hopehely | Dec 18 2021 18:42 utc | 122

Re. Confirmation of the Hong Kong research!
Posted by: b | Dec 18 2021 8:19 utc | 74
The new data show much lower experiment-to-experiment variability and thus are more convincing than the HK lab’s. The Gupta Lab also report that Omicron was poorly neutralised after two doses of mRNA or Ad vectored vaccine compared to Delta, but that the third dose (mRNA vaccine) rescued this at an early time point.
Their tentative conclusion:
In summary this work suggests that Omicron does appear to have become more immune evasive, but that properties associated with disease progression *may* be attenuated to some extent. The significant growth of Omicron nevertheless represents a major public health challenge.
In other words, it could be worse, but it would be premature at this point to let our guard down.

Posted by: farm ecologist | Dec 18 2021 18:43 utc | 123

@ Activist Potato | Dec 18 2021 8:27 utc | 75 quote : “Is everyone supposed to just accept that the authorities know what they are doing when almost everything they have said to date about the importance of vaccination has proven to be false?”
The vaccines were originally sold as offering “immunity” and a return to “normal.” Then they were merely offering “added protection” and a “reduction of symptoms.” Now, apparently, they simply reduce the chance of hospitalization. How they know any of this in a rapidly evolving landscape is unclear. But, in any case, aren’t all of these supposed benefits of the COVID “vaccine” what the traditional flu shot was supposed to offer against the flu? Flu shots were never mandated universally to my knowledge.
There is no vaccinating our way out of this pandemic. The only answer is – as ALWAYS- herd immunity, universal precautions and preventable alternate measures (I refuse to name them for fear of being banned). The fact that MOA continues to align itself with the dystopian measures to deal with an over-hyped health emergency is, to me, a sad occurrence.”
you say a lot of things that many here at moa are in fact in agreement with… so, i am not convinced of your last statement of ”fact” on MOA… but in answer to your first question, i think the answer is obviously no… people do need to question authorities and question the validity of this changing circus of dynamics..
my own feeling, and i have no way of confirming this, is that the angst and fear around this is going to fade in 2022.. i could be wrong, but i think many more people question what is happening here that the media might be letting on.. we’ll see.. thanks for your comment activist potato..
@ pscyhohistorian… are you still recommending that book? you’ve certainly quoted from it a number of times! as i said.. my friend has a copy and has agreed to lend it to me… i am just finishing up a book that mattais desmet recommended – eichmann in jerusalem by hannah arendt… fascinating book that gives a concrete example of totalitarianism as witnessed in myriad ways in her book…

Posted by: james | Dec 18 2021 18:43 utc | 124

South Africa’s hospitalization rate plunges amid Omicron wave
https://www.rt.com/news/543477-south-africa-covid19-omicron-strain/
Russia’s Sputnik V ‘Highly Effective’ Against Omicron – Real Study
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2021/12/18/russias-sputnik-v-highly-effective-against-omicron-real-study/

Posted by: Olivier | Dec 18 2021 19:05 utc | 125

@ james | Dec 18 2021 18:43 utc | 129 who asked about the value of reading The Dawn of Everything – A New History of Humanity by David Graeber and David Wengrow
To me, reading history of humanity only takes you so far and then it is helpful to look at what anthropologists continue to find about our “pre-history”.
The perspective of how humanity works in relation to this Covid bio-terrorism is valuable to speculate about within the context of social organizations/power/control
Like I wrote in my comment, I think that Covid is evolving in a way that is making control of information very difficult and if violence is controlled, things may change in our world and I would like to see that.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 18 2021 19:08 utc | 126

Vax efficacy is a demographic one. Most who would suffer greatly are, sadly gone. Now we have otherwise healthy people becoming infected and suffering less because of their general well being, age and lack of comorbidities. This isn’t a case of Vaxes working and creating less suffering. Its a demographic issue not a Vax efficacy one. This is clearly the case when less than 3% of infected suffer anything beyond a bad flu. This is my opinion based on observation taken in real time over the past 2 years.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Dec 18 2021 19:56 utc | 127

ptb | Dec 18 2021 18:08 utc | 117
The US would have to outsource the production of FEMA death camps, showers and ovens. maybe China, with the experience from its Wigger problem, can help?
if USG expects them to work, that is. unlike, say, most of what is in the DOD budget.
so yeah i call BS on the FEMA camps. something tells me there’d be more escape from such camps than from any Wuhan lab.

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Dec 18 2021 20:35 utc | 128

Tannenhouser @128 (among others) Thank you for that dose of objectivity. It’s comforting to know that reason and nuance are not entirely extinct.

Posted by: robjira | Dec 18 2021 21:04 utc | 129

Posted by: David G Horsman | Dec 18 2021 21:14 utc | 134

As a strong advocate for ivermectin I am keenly interested in studies that would demonstrate this. I don’t want to be wrong for many reasons.

No need to advocate unproven treatments when the real drug is available.

Posted by: hopehely | Dec 18 2021 21:32 utc | 130

DGH @134. I believe Hydroclorinique (sp) is useful as well. Any country that uses this drug banally for malaria relief seems to be weathering the storm well, Incidentally it is my belief that this is why The Sherman’s were murdered.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Dec 18 2021 21:33 utc | 131

What laws authorize such trials??
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/17/health/pfizer-vaccine-children/index.html

Posted by: Julie | Dec 18 2021 21:46 utc | 132

I don’t know if b will read this, but I would have one question.
Can you state, b, the precise and objective criteria according to which you consider a medication proven ?

Posted by: Micron | Dec 18 2021 21:53 utc | 133

@ psychohistorian | Dec 18 2021 19:08 utc | 127.. thanks.. i hope you are correct in your speculation..
@ hopehely | Dec 18 2021 21:32 utc | 135… my impression – and i could be wrong – Molnupiravir is just a repurposed ivermectin, but with a much higher price tag.. of course merck who had the patent on ivermectin originally, would be happy to change the name and repackage it in an expensive outfit.
” U.S. Department of Health and Human Services committed to buy US$1.2 billion worth of molnupiravir (approximately 1.7 million courses) ”
i’m not good at quick math.. what is that? 100$ a pop approx?
my understanding is there is no money to be made in getting the FDA to approve ivermectin for use with covid.. everything revolves around money it seems..

Posted by: james | Dec 18 2021 22:10 utc | 134

addedum – that is only if merck receives an emergency use authorization (EUA) or approval from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA).[21][22][23]

Posted by: james | Dec 18 2021 22:12 utc | 135

Psycho @127. Dark age V.2

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Dec 18 2021 22:25 utc | 136

hopehely @135
The drug you reference is molnupiravir. It is correct that this drug does inhibit coronovirus replication. The reason it is not yet approved is that it is a powerful mutagen for replicating RNA viruses. There is an ongoing discussion going on right now whether or not it might be mutagenic towards replicating DNA organisms, e.g. homo sapiens.

Posted by: Toivos | Dec 19 2021 0:34 utc | 137

The imposed corporate/state Empire superstructure (NAFTA, EU, etc.) that dismantled western democracy has one fatal flaw. It is designed to make money by destroying things – “The Shock Doctrine” – not making goods. This was transferred to China. Its primary belief is that there is no such thing as society. Enriching connected individuals at the expense of all others is an entitlement.
The coronavirus death rate is near zero in China, Japan, and Taiwan for one simple reason – they still have functional governments. The multinational Western Empire is dead. The Anglo-American Alliance is so dysfunctional that both of its political leaders, Donald Trump and Boris Johnson, caught COVID. The Biden Administration is even less effective than the “warp speed” Trump Administration.
At present, the mutating RNA coronavirus alone will determine the fate of the peoples of North America and Europe. The only alternative is to declare national emergencies, close the borders, re-institute working public health systems, care for the ill, and eradicate the virus, state by state.

Posted by: VietnamVet | Dec 19 2021 1:57 utc | 138

Since many on a covid thread likes to throw at each other his best graph and stat of “real data”, i’d like to add (again) mine to the mess :
https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/
EuroMOMO is the offical european mortality monitor for Western Europe + Israel. It is weekly updated and public. It is serious and it shows total excess mortality only.
General trend for 2020/21 wasn’t good of course, and clearly shows the covid peaks in general and per country, but what is very unusual is the trend for the 15-44 age group, the “young and healthy” group, that is steadely rising ( scroll to it ), as stated in the last bulletin:
“This week’s overall pooled EuroMOMO estimates of all-cause mortality for the participating European countries show an elevated level of excess mortality. This falls in line with the continued excess mortality at low level in the European pooled estimates over the past few months, affecting all age groups from 15 years and above”
As we know that there is no COVID excess mortality for that age group, one can wonder what is causing this trend ?
EuroMoMO doesn’t answer, but will remains an usefull tool to monitor , live, the mortality in 2022.
I tried to find an equivalent monitor group for fertility/natality with no success. All we know is that natality is in free fall in europe due to “not in the mood for love” lockdown issues as adverse event :
https://www.ft.com/content/bc825399-345c-47b8-82e7-6473a1c9a861
That was last year, ok , but what now ?

Posted by: malamatias | Dec 19 2021 2:42 utc | 139

Rob @121: “…Such unvaccinated populations are like a fertile field waiting for seeds to land..” That is one way to look at things, and those who look at ‘things’ that way are so sure they are correct.
What if they are wrong? What if those unvaccinated are like natures own repository of innate defenses, not yet contaminated by years of overmedication?
I think this hypothesis is just as robust as the one you pose, if not more so. Here is a phraseology I copied from I forget where, a mantra to follow:

“If a particular life-solution requires the constant input of technological correction, there is good reason to suspect that “nature” is being seen as a problem rather than received as a gift.”

Humankind suffers from over-reliance on medicines, and moreover from over-reliance on the latest scientific discoveries in that field which have not been properly tested. We need to have more faith and more respect in our bodies’ innate functions which even today are not fully understood.

Posted by: juliania | Dec 19 2021 4:37 utc | 140

@141 juliania
We used to live in an environment that everyone called “Nature”. Now we live in an environment that everyone calls “the economy”.
And even if this hell we now live in was caused by a fabricated thing, it still is a thing of nature. And the remedies you speak of will still pertain, and obtain, and prevail.
Greetings, by the way, to you and to all the animate living spirit gathered around you 🙂

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 19 2021 5:31 utc | 141

juliania | Dec 19 2021 4:37 utc | 141
That’s beautiful my dear Juliana. And so are you!
Thanks for making my day. ‘Armed’ with that I can go on my daily walk
through the woods and not be afraid of meeting my neighbor again who
yesterday grilled me about my vax status.
Maybe I’m too sensitive given all the pressure to get vaxxed but I
think asking someone about it is the ‘New Rude’.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Dec 19 2021 5:35 utc | 142

@David G Horsman | Dec 18 2021 22:46 utc | 144
More ICU units, hospitals and the training of new professionals adequately compensated.
The US is already spending more per capita on its health care than any other country — and getting worse results on Covid. Spending (printed) dollars is thus not the answer. If more money won’t do, then if you want a good chance to defeat the virus the only other alternative is better organization.
(Some people refuse to do anything, hoping for the virus to go away by itself. That may work. But what if it doesn’t work? The point is to use solutions with as high a probability of success as we can manage, not to count on winning the lottery.)
Organization is what the US lacks. Some people think the necessary teamwork is “authoritarian”, but all that’s needed is the minimal organization of a kindergarten — and the necessary cooperation period would be a lot briefer than a kindergarten class.
Many people dimly see that the minimal necessary organization is beyond the US these days, though at one time it was not. The slow decline and the impending death of a once-great country is causing many of its citizens to start the first of the five stages of grief: denial.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 19 2021 5:45 utc | 143

@ juliania | Dec 19 2021 4:37 utc | 141.. nice post – sentiment and commentary.. thank you.

Posted by: james | Dec 19 2021 5:58 utc | 144

@67 b
Yes, I understand, and I agree with your position as you restate it here. I knew this, but simply didn’t think of this when I wrote my comment. Thank you for reminding me of this aspect of public discourse.
And this, I think, is precisely why we discuss things, so that we can be the memory for others.
I have so much more I would like to say, but I think I’ll cut it short for the moment and say thank you for the space to say the things that you don’t allow, but which we have managed to discuss and agree on anyway.
I truly hope you can share in the benefits that flow from the discussions we have had here, that you cannot agree with, but that you have allowed to happen.
I wish you well, and with much gratitude.

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 19 2021 6:17 utc | 145

thank you for your continued rationality about covid and the vaccine. I cannot fathom those who dismiss this novel virus/vaccines as some kind of plot. Medical staff around the country are exhausted and burnt out and wondering how so many people can get so twisted up in their ideas of rights/responsibilities. The shortage of nurses is severe and getting worse. Wait times at urgent care centers are very long, expect them to get even longer. Don’t get sick people. Don’t have an accident. And,again, if you get covid and have refused vaccination, stay home.
Posted by: nurse.comic | Dec 17 2021 19:39 utc | 4

You are forcing a situation where people are going to have to stop you by force. Consider your actions, you are in danger.

Posted by: A. Warner | Dec 19 2021 6:17 utc | 146

Sorry to see that Rob’s vax propaganda is published unhindered while my rebuttals are censored.
Here two studies that show that the virus adapts itself to the vaccines. So the more people got the jab the more virus that can infect the vaccinated vulnerable will be around.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.19.21262139v1.full
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3897733

Posted by: Wim | Dec 19 2021 6:23 utc | 147

“If a particular life-solution requires the constant input of technological correction, there is good reason to suspect that “nature” is being seen as a problem rather than received as a gift.”
wonderful sentiment
not universally or always literally applicable, organ transplants come to mind, but it puts in to words a feeling shared by many!
would also note that the culling by b appears to be being applied to ‘both sides’ which is heartening

Posted by: Rae | Dec 19 2021 6:52 utc | 148

@juliania
Here is a phraseology I copied from I forget where, a mantra to follow:
“If a particular life-solution requires the constant input of technological correction, there is good reason to suspect that “nature” is being seen as a problem rather than received as a gift.”
Humankind suffers from over-reliance on medicines, and moreover from over-reliance on the latest scientific discoveries in that field which have not been properly tested. We need to have more faith and more respect in our bodies’ innate functions which even today are not fully understood.

Nice sentiment.
Now consider that global life expectation at birth has gone up from some 30 years a century back to some 75+ years now. Same goes for infant mortality which was at 10% not so long ago and is now much lower.
If that is ‘suffering” from “over-reliance on medicines, and moreover from over-reliance on the latest scientific discoveries” please give me more of it.

Posted by: b | Dec 19 2021 7:10 utc | 149

Posted by: b | Dec 19 2021 7:10 utc | 150
Point taken b, but Juliana’s point was ‘over-reliance’. Reliance on medicine and the latest scientific discoveries may indeed be advantageous, while at the same time an over-reliance on some things (ahem, vaccines) may not.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Dec 19 2021 7:40 utc | 150

@waynorinorway | Dec 19 2021 7:40 utc | 151
Point taken b, but Juliana’s point was ‘over-reliance’. Reliance on medicine and the latest scientific discoveries may indeed be advantageous, while at the same time an over-reliance on some things (ahem, vaccines) may not.
Perhaps, but what are the odds? When you advocate a course of action or inaction, you are making a bet — on your life, and on the lives of perhaps billions of people. So why not at least attempt to estimate the odds?

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 19 2021 8:06 utc | 151

@Cyril | Dec 19 2021 8:06 utc | 152
So what are you trying to say? I find your argument hard to follow, and I’m not going to go through
all the previous threads to find out exactly what your position on anything, including Covid, is.
If you can’t express yourself better I’m not interested.
“Perhaps, but what are the odds.”
Perhaps what? Odds of what?
I advocate for myself, not anyone else. And I’m certainly not affecting billions of people.
What I don’t want is for someone else to tell me how to manage my health.
“So why not at least attempt to estimate the odds?”
What the heck does that mean?

Posted by: waynorinorway | Dec 19 2021 9:52 utc | 152

B @ 150:
Life expectancies around the world before the 20th century were low in part because of high infant mortality rates (which skew the distribution of numbers of deaths towards the early childhood years and lower average life-spans) and women dying in childbirth (itself another factor pulling numbers of deaths and average life-spans downwards), and avoidable diseases taking out large numbers of people during childhood.
The high infant mortality rates and the risk to women of dying in labour could have had many causes, not all of them arising from the birth process itself: cultural factors affecting the health of the mother often came into play. In many societies where boys were favoured over girls, girls might have received inadequate nutrition throughout childhood and into their adolescent years. They might have been married off at young ages and made pregnant while still in their teenage years, not fully grown and developed and with undernourished bodies. Childbirth would have been extremely risky for them and the baby likely to die as well.
If by miracle the baby survived, various childhood diseases typical of overcrowded urban societies with poor sanitation, lack of knowledge about proper nutrition, hygiene and even basic medical care were additional obstacles on the path to adulthood – not to mention perhaps working in coal mines, Industrial Revolution-era textile factories or other industrial environments exploiting child labour, in the days before people formed trade unions to represent and fight for their rights as workers.
So even low life expectancies in most countries before the 20th century were not necessarily “natural”, in the sense that they were typical of human societies regardless of those societies’ organisation and main economic activities.

Posted by: Jen | Dec 19 2021 10:15 utc | 153

Nice sentiment.
Now consider that global life expectation at birth has gone up from some 30 years a century back to some 75+ years now. Same goes for infant mortality which was at 10% not so long ago and is now much lower

For starters, the major contributing factors for increased life expectancy over the last century are largely non-medical, i.e. hand-washing, inside plumbing, and improved diet, or in short, education. Also, there are indications that longevity is reversing, certainly the birthrate is in decline…here in Italy it’s gone negative.
Don’t get me started on mental health.
If that is ‘suffering” from “over-reliance on medicines, and moreover from over-reliance on the latest scientific discoveries” please give me more of it
Well, don’t fret, global Pharma profits show no sign of declining.

Posted by: john | Dec 19 2021 11:07 utc | 154

Eye opening indeed
“ The latest Sage papers have been published, envisaging anything from 200 to 6,000 deaths a day from Omicron depending on how many more restrictions we’ll get — up to and very much including another lockdown. Earlier today I had an unexpected chance to ask questions of Graham Medley, the chair of the Sage modelling committee.
He’s a professor at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) which last weekend published a study on Omicron with very gloomy scenarios and making the case for more restrictions. But JP Morgan had a close look at this study and spotted something big: all the way through, LSHTM assumes that the Omicron variant is just as deadly as Delta. ‘But evidence from South Africa suggests that Omicron infections are milder,’ JP Morgan pointed out in a note to clients. Adjust for this, it found, and the picture changes dramatically:

Bed occupancy by Covid-19 patients at the end of January would be 33% of the peak seen in January 2021. This would be manageable without further restrictions.
So JP Morgan had shown that, if you tweak one assumption (on severity) then — suddenly — no need for lockdown.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/my-twitter-conversation-with-the-chairman-of-the-sage-covid-modelling-committee

Posted by: DG | Dec 19 2021 14:02 utc | 155

@Toivos #59
Let’s examine your statement:
1) If death rates are only 4 times lower – clearly 13 times less likely to die if vaccinated (As Rob was touting) is false. Period.
2) The death rates in 2020 vs 2021 are likely overstated. Do you really think testing was anywhere near as common in 2020 vs 2021?
I categorically state that 2020 infection rates were understated due to lack of testing.
3) The death rates in 2021 should normally decline vs. 2020 as both people already dead (i.e. highly vulnerable due to comorbidities) as well as people who contracted COVID and recovered (asymptomatic or not) would reduce the percent of population that is vulnerable to either infection or death.
Note I am not saying that the vaccines do nothing. I’m still hoping that there is actual benefit, however it is 100% clear that the benefit is nowhere close to what the numbskulls in the CDC or whoever trumpet, given the top level death numbers.
The details:
Every single one of the variability in the 3 factors above point to the 2020 death rates being overstated vs. 2021 – how much, impossible to say at the moment but we can make some estimates.
Regarding Point 2: All manner of early data showed that 40% of people who got original COVID are asymptomatic.
As for point 3: something like 20 million people in the US got COVID in 2020 (by official stats). That’s 6% of the population – so 2021 numbers should be discounted by 6% to reflect natural immunity. Note this is not double counting the undertesting from point 1 – this point addresses total vulnerable population while point 2 addresses what the equivalent death rates should be for 2020 vs. 2021.
Taking these possibilities into account:
If the undertesting missed 20% to 40% of actual COVID in 2020 vs 2021 (point 2), then the death rates in 2020 vs. 2021 would be 3.33 to 2.85 times that of 2021.
Then applying the 6% additional smaller population effect – 3.13 to 2.67 times deaths of 2020 vs. 2021.
Note that even assuming your (4 times less likely) business is accurate, the actual effect is significantly degraded but still good.
Great! Vaccines are great!
Except…
28 million COVID infections in 2021 vs 20 million COVID infections in 2020.
Compared to CDC mortality data showing 377K or so COVID deaths in 2020 vs. 805K (and counting) COVID deaths overall so far (805K – 377K = 428K COVID deaths in 2021 to date).
377K/20M = 0.0188
(805K-377K)/28M = 0.0152
The difference between the 2 numbers is less than 20% – and we already know the 2020 COVID infection numbers are almost certainly understated.
Reconcile the discrepancy between the <20% difference in overall death rates (which is likely even less) vs. the "4 times less likely" or "13 times less likely".
Note this doesn't take into account points 2) and 3) above: If the actual COVID infection numbers in 2020 were understated by 20% - the entire difference disappears. If the actual COVID numbers were understated by more than 20% - 2021 had WORSE death rate. <--- this is why I am starting to wonder about just how effective the vax really is. Personally, I never believe what hacks say - the base numbers show a huge disparity vs. what the vax communicators are blathering. We'll see in this coming "omicron" spike - but note that they're already backpedaling on vax efficacy vs. omicron. So if the death rate continues to not significantly fall (significantly = 10x reduction to seasonal flu levels), well, clearly they're going to now blame people for not quickly getting 3rd or 4th booster shots fast enough. And we'll see another variant next year - I'll bet money on it. Last note: while I have discounted the antivaxxer notes about how flu deaths have vanished - at this point, with no lockdowns, this oddity is becoming a lot more interesting as well. net net: the pronouncements of the vax efficacy are not being matched in reality.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 19 2021 15:56 utc | 156

@Cyril #119
You have zero credibility, and your latest blathering only reinforces it.
There are sterilizing vaccines –
As for the “3 to 5 times”, or “4 times lower”, or “13 times lower” – the real world numbers don’t reflect any of these.
Please return to your regularly scheduled mindless MSM programming.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 19 2021 15:59 utc | 157

@jo6pac #2
The majority of the mask belief was built on the early Asian (South Korea, Japan and Singapore in particular) better COVID outcomes.
But South Korea is experiencing multiple waves of COVID, as is Singapore albeit to a much lesser extent. Did they stop wearing masks?
Japan has locked down totally to outsiders traveling in so is an exception.
Given this, I’d say that the real world numbers are still not showing significant differences to prove that masks do anything measurable.
For example:
We can say 100% that people wear more masks now than they did in January to April 2020. Less clear for the period of May 2020 – August 2020 vs. now.
We can also say that COVID infection rates are not visibly different between 2020 vs. 2021: 20M COVID in 2020 (likely understated) vs. 28 million COVID in 2021.
So are masks REALLY helping?
I still mask up primarily because it is a very low cost/impact thing to do, but the reality is that mask effectiveness is clearly not very high.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 19 2021 16:06 utc | 158

Interesting statistical analysis by a British professor of statistics and principal of a successful risk assessment company: https://youtu.be/6umArFc-fdc

Posted by: RJB | Dec 19 2021 16:37 utc | 159

Posted by: Rob | Dec 17 2021 23:03 utc | 38
Those unvaccinated people who died might have gotten one or two shots but their status is still unvaccinated.

Posted by: RJB | Dec 19 2021 17:00 utc | 160

@waynorinorway | Dec 19 2021 9:52 utc | 153
So what are you trying to say? I find your argument hard to follow, and I’m not going to go through
all the previous threads to find out exactly what your position on anything, including Covid, is.
If you can’t express yourself better I’m not interested.

In other words, you’re too lazy to catch up on the conversation. You want me to do the work to bring you up to date. Your cluelessness doesn’t prevent you from jumping on the sofa and declaring your opinion loudly.
I advocate for myself, not anyone else. And I’m certainly not affecting billions of people.
You have no choice about affecting possibly billions of people: Covid-19 is infectious. So whatever course of action or inaction you propose, if implemented, will have ramifications far beyond yourself. At least have the courtesy to explain why your chosen path is wiser, why it is better for the world than any other — in other words, at least attempt to estimate the odds of success, and the number of people who might die because of you.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 19 2021 18:05 utc | 161

@c1ue | Dec 19 2021 15:59 utc | 158
You have zero credibility, and your latest blathering only reinforces it.
This from someone who tried to peddle a fake graph.
I proved it was fake, but that embarrassment is apparently not deterring you.
[More random blather, ignored.]
I have no intention of wasting time in the rotting, stinking room inside your head.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 19 2021 18:19 utc | 162

Re the “pandemic”
In Australia there is no observable pandemic where people are dropping dead and creating excess mortality. Nationally we have not even reached the mortality of a regular flu season. I found this information on Aus government websites.
Not that our government wants to make it easy to find stats, all the state covid sites are blatantly skewed to testing or “case” numbers and Vaccine targets. Deaths per week are published but not co-morbidities and there are no running totals on deaths or hospitalisations that are easy to find.
I’m not here to argue that some countries have had a bad run with the virus, however there ane many countries in the world who have not. We have high vaccination rates here well over 80% yet more deaths (still not many BTW) , more restrictions , more insanity than last year.
Its very difficult to find anyone that knows anyone who has actually died of covid. I do know people who have had vaccine related injury, but not many.
All in all I think that science is letting us all down badly. If observation is the basis of scientific enquiry, then why have scientists devoted zero time in Australia to even theorising why we don’t have a pandemic here. (except the pandemic of testing and vaccinating)
In my state we have had 7 deaths from covid since it started. Yet the push for 100% vaccination rate is just as intense as if we are a Northern hemisphere country with thousands of excess deaths. The politicians are insisting its because we vaccinate. But this does not explain the increase of deaths this year, especially if Delta has been the most deadly of the strains. If that is true then the most deaths should have been at the beginning.
One of the most frustrating aspects to being asked to “trust the science” is that I need to give up my own powers of observation and common sense to do so. Testing creates “cases” but cases rarely get sick (in this country) not to mention even end up in hospital. Testing positive creates “hot spots” which then results in lockdowns and restrictions, regardless of whether anyone in that hot spot ever becomes ill.
What this amounts to is that we are being forced to believe in an illness that 99% of the time (in Australia) can’t be experienced or felt but must be “tested” for and that we are a danger to others and ourselves because we could at any time whether vaccinated or unvaccinated be carrying this unseen seen and unfelt disease and transmitting it to others.
How similar to pre-crime is this scenario becoming? The common sense and observations of the population are constantly doubted and denied in our current scenario.
I am not speaking about or speculating on the pandemic in other countries, however there are enough countries in the world with very low infection rates like Australia to at least call into question if this is a real pandemic or more of a bad seasonal flu like virus that is worse in overcrowded, cold locations and climates, potentially with poor air quality and in particular in populations that have co-morbidities and generally poor health outcomes, not from poverty but from the western diet and lifestyle.
These are my observations, i’m not ramming them down anyone’s throat, just putting them out there for consideration.
I have had two horrific rhinovirus infections in the past few years, worse than any flu ever, one landed me in intensive care with severe pneumonia. Since I’ve nearly died of flu I am less afraid of covid. That might seem weird to others, but that’s how I feel.
I isolate and distance etc etc to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but after doing all of this for nearly two years I am absolutely convinced there are many many things far worse than covid. I’m not talking about masking, I’m saying that other diseases and essential surgeries are being ignored while our Aussie covid wards are empty, unemployment is high , housing prices are astronomical, the gap between rich and poor is growing by the day, mental health issues are soaring.
These are issues that should be considered by intelligent people rather than being silenced with weaponised and unscientific accusations such as “anti vaxxer” or “Covid Denier”

Posted by: K | Dec 19 2021 19:36 utc | 163

Sooooo… what are the odds?
What are the odds that I will get the virus, if I care to protect myself?
What are the odds if I am in good health and if I get the virus, that I will have symptoms?
What are the odds if I have symptoms, that it will be anything more serious than a cold?
What are the odds if it is more serious than a cold, that I will be hospitalised?
What are the odds if I am hospitalised, that I will die?
Now.
What are the odds if I get a mRNA injection, that I will suffer from (you choose): a stroke, a clot, a heart attack, a pericardite, a myocardite, a disorganisation of the immune system (list not closed)?
What are the odds if I get a problem caused by the injection, that I will be compensated by the labs or/and by the politicians who blackmail people to get the injection?
About the last one I know the odds: zero for me, all for the labs and politicians.
Soooooo… who is responsible?

Posted by: Olivier | Dec 19 2021 20:34 utc | 164

The most stupid product made to fight a virus is a product targeting only one protein of the virus. We see the results. A complete failure. By natural selection the virus will find a way to avoid the single antibody made by the product.
But at the same time it is very good for the labs profits and for the politicians who want to control the society.

Posted by: Olivier | Dec 19 2021 20:46 utc | 165

@Cyril #163
You didn’t prove shit.
The reality is exactly as the graph showed: there are more deaths in 2021 than 2020.
Your inability to understand the actual raw data is your own stupidity, not mine.
That’s what happens when you outsource your brain activity to mainstream media idiots.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 19 2021 21:36 utc | 166

@Cyril #162
My chosen course of action to to have many different representatives of society discuss the situation and arrive at a solution which at least most of those segments can agree on.
The present idiotic “health expert” strategy has obviously failed because those experts don’t actually understand the economy, they don’t understand the trade offs and buy in necessary to impose society wide restrictions, don’t understand risk trade offs and don’t have credibility period given their frequently contradictory positions.
I’ve posted editorials by medical doctors – ones which are pro vax but understand how and why the present strategies have fueled dissent, not quelled it.
Equally, if said experts had produced positive results, then their credibility would have been bolstered. Instead, they have been consistently wrong every step of the way: qualitatively, quantitatively, democratically, pretty much any way you can look at it.
That’s my view of how things “should” have been done, and my view on how things boils be done going forward.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 19 2021 21:42 utc | 167

@Olivier | Dec 19 2021 20:34 utc | 165
What are the odds that I will get the virus, if I care to protect myself?
Your odds of getting Covid-19 will be very good, if the “herd immunity” nutcases get their way, the world lets the virus rip, and the death rate goes exponential. The rates are currently low because the world is fighting the coronavirus. Covid-19 may evolve to be less troublesome, but it could get worse — far worse. I don’t want to find out the hard way.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 19 2021 22:57 utc | 168

in response to c1ue at 157
Your long babble here does not refute the main point I criticized about your original foolish comment. You asserted as if it was highly significant that there were more deaths due to covid 19 in 2021 compared to 2020. First if you are willing to go back and look at the data (recorded worldometers.info/coronovirus) you would see that in the first month of that year there were basically no covid 19 cases in the first six weeks of that year and then took about 4 months to increase to the level seen in 2021. Of course there would be more deaths in 2021.
If you can’t comprehend that simple point then you are either dishonest or stupid. That is why I focused on rate, not absolute numbers.

Posted by: Toivos | Dec 20 2021 0:10 utc | 169

‘Bad’ news for b from Denmark: jamba juice (vaccines) are so scientific they don’t really work ahem anymore. Yes, someone will no doubt point out the tired BS that jamba juice gives you protection because WHO says so, but good luck with kidding yourself:
https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/stunning-covid-data-from-denmark
Most new Covid cases in Denmark occur in people who are vaccinated or boosted – and that is true for both Omicron and earlier variants. More than 76 percent of non-Omicron Covid infections in Denmark are in vaccinated people, along with about 90 percent of Omicron infections.
Overall, though, the figures out of Denmark largely back those from South Africa – and make clear that the reason that Europe has seen a massive rise in cases and hospitalizations this fall has nothing to do with Omicron and everything to do with vaccine failure.

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 20 2021 7:45 utc | 170

@Toivos #170
Your time basis point is valid, but irrelevant given that we’re looking at DEATH RATES not DEATHS PER MONTH OR YEAR.
As you are apparently statistically handicapped, I will reiterate: the “DEATH RATE IN 2020” was 377K for 20M infected; the “DEATH RATE IN 2021” is (805K-377K=428K) vs. 28M infected.
The overall difference in “DEATHS PER XXX INFECTIONS” is less than 20%, and is likely even less than that given the relative lack of testing in 2020.
It is also clear that you didn’t read even half of what I wrote since I note other factors which should lead to lower death and infection rates in 2021 vs. 2020, regardless of vaccine efficacy.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 20 2021 16:07 utc | 171

From the noted right wing rag, Naked Capitalism /sarc
Omicron undermines scapegoating the unvaxxed

Despite promising that the new Administration represented “adults in the room” and would “follow the science”, in practice they’ve squandered a year and fallen back on HR-style scolding in lieu of policy. Rochelle Walensky has been a complete train wreck at the CDC, failing to address the agency’s poor performance at data gathering and not bothering to build bridges to state public health agencies, who constitutionally are the lead actors. Our IM Doc has excoriated the CDC for failing at another core mission, keeping practitioners abreast on treatments and evolving/emerging symptoms.

And the Administration’s vax only approach, and its corollary of blaming everything bad on the unvaxxed, is going to wear thin as more and more of the vaxxed and boosted like Elizabeth Warren get Omicron.

And as more and more of the vaccinated and boosted fall ill, the Administration is set to lose credit for having oversold the vaccines. Do not forget that in popularity polls, the subcategory in which Biden has gotten the best marks is managing Covid. What happens when that starts to erode?

By contrast, IM Doc, who is in a hospital system that is already stressed by Covid, mainly due to staff-burnout-generated attrition, reports that cases requiring hospital attention (which included outpatient, they monitor patients at home more aggressively than the overwhelming majority of practices) are proportional to vaccination levels in the community:
How have things changed? – Way way more vaccinated and boostered patients are now becoming positive. Many of them quite ill. Indeed, as OUTPATIENTS, I would say our vaccinated ill is basically on par with the vaccinated population at large. The same is true of the boosters. So, basically, just like Denmark, we seem to be at complete par. Ergo, the vaccines are basically worthless for transmission of the virus. So far, it remains about 60-40 unvaccinated-vaccinated in the hospital. However, the vaccinated are becoming more and more ill.
IM Doc is hardly alone in that view. GM says that Florian Krammer is a really serious scientist, not a random doomer

Yet we see, as we also warned, despite the fact that it was evident the vaccines would not confer durable immunity, that they would not halt transmission, and that starting in December 2020, experts started seeing mutations that could affect disease behavior, the officialdom is also attempting the intelligence-insulting “Whocoulddanode” defense, made worse by the nod to Rumsfeld:

Moreover, monoclonal antibodies need to be administered in a tight time window to be effective, shortly after symptoms strike.
With supplies this short, even some of rich might be unable to cut into the line. From IM Doc, who recall has patients that skew disproportionately towards squillionaries and centimillionaries:
Furthermore, these treatments are being heavily restricted and patients must now meet strict criteria to get them. I have been told there is quite a supply problem….It is alarming to me that intense preparation was not done on these anti-virals by our officials …it is clear that further variants were not even on the radar of our officials this year. Omicron came out of nowhere, don’t you know. Who could have expected this to happen? And it was also crystal clear that this antibody therapy was not on Dr. Fauci’s or Biden’s list of things to take care of. If you live in certain states like Texas or Florida and others, your governor and health officials had the foresight to secure your own supply, limited as it may be. Everywhere else – well – good luck.
In other words, the “vax vax vax” policy appears to have included deliberate neglect of treatments as well as non-pharmaceutical interventions, not just the much demonized horse paste but even medically recognized monoclonal antibodies. After all, only the morally remiss unvaccinated could possibly need them, right?

So it isn’t just me or the hard core anti-vaxxers who are saying that the CDC, the US federal government and the MSM are/have been wrong on COVID policy.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 20 2021 16:13 utc | 172

MOA was wrong about COVID from start to finish. Don’t ever listen to this guy.

Posted by: Sam Myers | Dec 20 2021 18:34 utc | 173

@Idiocrates | Dec 20 2021 7:45 utc | 171
More than 76 percent of non-Omicron Covid infections in Denmark are in vaccinated people, along with about 90 percent of Omicron infections.
If this is true and representative of Omicron’s effect, then we need a new booster. The new shots must be cheap, which probably means the vaccines that require expensive refrigeration, like Pfizer’s, are impractical.
Yes, some people will be tired of going for another booster, even if it is cheap (or free). But it is probably not an endless slog. I see it this way: each new shot cuts off another large chunk of the virus’s potential evolution space.
Imagine an area of land, such as a parking lot. Each square inch of the area represents a possible variant of Covid. Some spots will be occupied by existing variants; other spots, and probably the vast majority of the evolution space, will be empty, as the virus has yet to evolve into those spots. Each vaccine or booster kills off a variant, and probably many neighboring variants too. In effect, the vaccine or booster cuts some territory from the parking lot. Eventually, if we administer enough boosters, all the parking lot — and all the evolution space — will be gone, and the virus will be dead.
I don’t know how many boosters will be necessary, but we’ll probably need a few. Which means the boosters need to be cheap. And this means that the profit-grubbing companies, like Pfizer, should stay out.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 20 2021 19:54 utc | 174

Cyril @175
Sounds like you are trying, trying to bend the facts towards an explanation.
Isn’t it insanity to try the same thing again and angain, expecting different results?
A much simpler explanation (occam’s razor anyone?) for me is that jamba juice never worked, as a vaccine, and that perhaps other measures (lockdowns) and/or mechanisms (natural immunity) were responsible for ups and downs.
Now, this landscape of yours is changing rapidly and the control groups are being elliminated by forced jabbings. If ‘science’ led us into this cul-de-sac I want none of it thanks. I’d rather we tried some ‘Chinese medicine’, but tragically it seems to be too late for that…thanks to ‘science’.
This is ridiculous…

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 7:42 utc | 175

c1ue @173
Thanks for the link. I have stopped reading NC because they actually believe stats and opinions of USANews, USAToday or whatever. Go figure…couldn’t square that circle. Waste of time

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 7:51 utc | 176

Sam Myers @174
Yes, that seems to be the case. So if MoA has been so wrong on covid, what else are they wrong about?

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 8:02 utc | 177

Olivier @165
What are the odds…
Thank you for that, excellent!
Like the style of your presentation…by questions 🙂 reminds me of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_questioning

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 10:49 utc | 178

Idiocrates wrote
(vaccines) are so scientific they don’t really work ahem anymore….
Most new Covid cases in Denmark occur in people who are vaccinated or boosted – and that is true for both Omicron and earlier variants. More than 76 percent of non-Omicron Covid infections in Denmark are in vaccinated people, along with about 90 percent of Omicron infections.
__________________________________________________________________________
Where are you getting those numbers from? It looks to me that your numbers are just made up.
If you go to Danish Health Authority website you will find they are still saying that vaccines are effective at preventing covid illness including the Omicron strain. The Danish Health Authority recommends everybody over 40 get a booster shot.

Posted by: jinn | Dec 21 2021 13:05 utc | 179

jinn @180
Sources and stats are in the link provided.
Another link about similarily astonishing stats is this one: https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/vaccinated-english-adults-under-60
Vaccinated English adults under 60 are dying at twice the rate of unvaccinated people the same age
And have been for six months. This chart may seem unbelievable or impossible, but it’s correct, based on weekly data from the British government.

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 13:39 utc | 180

After reading “b’s” hyperbole concerning vaccines and masks, I will no longer visit this website as it’s become a propaganda outlet. So much false, inaccurate statements plus a warning about incorrect thinking… so long MOA…. Good luck with pushing the Covid narrative.

Posted by: Nes Fouratoù | Dec 21 2021 14:54 utc | 181

Nes Fouratoù @182
I understand your position perfectly, I feel similarily.
I have stopped paying attention to b’s COVID narrative from the start, because from the start it was apparent to anyone with half a brain cell, that there is ‘something rotten in Denmark’ (see my comment 171 with the link to Danish stats in the article at substack: https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/stunning-covid-data-from-denmark).
I now read MoA less and less because there is less and less of real substance and concentrate of skimming through the comments because I can still find some useful stuff there.
But the trend is unmistakably down-sloping for me and I am mostly interested in dodging the jamba juice jab posse on the one hand and getting early signals on Russian hypersonic missiles raining down on my parade.
Also, I cannot understand why there are no articles about Germany and its role in this crazyness, which seems to not be neglibible or irrelevant. Well, Germany is irrelevant in terms of military and its economy is also heading that way (thanks to EU financial and energy policies)…but compared to fake news from NYT or Turkish currency problems it is still infinitely more relevant, for me.

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 15:20 utc | 182

The well named Idiocrates said
Sources and stats are in the link provided.
______________________________________________________
There are no sources or stats that I can independently verify in your link.
Somebody writing fiction on the internet is not “Sources and stats” IMO.
-My conclusion is you are relying on made-up data. And my guess is you will not find any actual data to support your claims, but instead you will just double down on repeating information that cannot be verified.

Posted by: jinn | Dec 21 2021 15:39 utc | 183

@Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 7:42 utc | 176
Sounds like you are trying, trying to bend the facts towards an explanation.
No, I rely on decades of proven success: vaccines, if done right, do work. Smallpox and polio used to be so overwhelming that even the President of the US (FDR) was crippled for life by one of these infections. But today, these diseases are gone, extinct. Vaccines can work.
Isn’t it insanity to try the same thing again and angain, expecting different results?
If we keep using the same ineffective method, then yes, that is insanity. But all progress comes from people who keep trying different things. Thomas Edison said that “invention is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration”. If one thing doesn’t work, or no longer works, we try something else.
A much simpler explanation (occam’s razor anyone?) for me is that jamba juice never worked, as a vaccine, and that perhaps other measures (lockdowns) and/or mechanisms (natural immunity) were responsible for ups and downs.
Now you are bending evidence, the decades of evidence that vaccines can be used successfully. Denmark has mostly used the Pfizer vaccine, and it may be too specific to cope with the newer variants. If Pfizer doesn’t work, well, there are many, many other vaccines that we can try.
What should we do? Panic at the first setback? Or use Edison’s advice and keep working? Especially as we have evidence, mountains of it, that our efforts will likely be rewarded.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 21 2021 16:20 utc | 184

jinn @184
Yeah, I know. If its too difficult I can’t understand it. Try scrolling past the title, to page 8. There you will find Table 4…it is even in English…so if you can read, you’re good to go.

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 16:21 utc | 185

Cyril @185
You misunderstood me. You make out as if jamba juice is a real vaccine, but it is not. If it were, the normal vaccine approval would have been granted, but it was not. Instead, we will learn what its made of in about a 100 years.
So, I agree with you that ‘vaccines can work’, but jamba juice cannot and is not.

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 16:31 utc | 186

Idiocrates
Yeah, I know. If its too difficult I can’t understand it.
_______________________________________________________________
It sounds it may be is too difficult for you.
The link you posted claims to have official data from Denmark that shows the vaccine (mostly Pfizer in Denmark I believe) no longer protects against Hospitalization.
All that means is somebody on the internet is telling a story about official data from Denmark.
If there is official data from Denmark that supports the claims I would like to verify that for myself. I’m not going to take some story-teller’s word for it.

Posted by: jinn | Dec 21 2021 16:50 utc | 187

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 16:31 utc | 187

So, I agree with you that ‘vaccines can work’, but jamba juice cannot and is not

So you believe Pfizer/Moderna shots are not real vaccines but just placebos?
Fine, but even then you are better off if you take them.
– They are free, so there is no cost for you (aside ~1hr of your precious, precious time)
– They are harmless, so no risk to you
– And, you will get a nice stamp so you can go out watch movies and basketball matches, eat steaks and lobsters in fine restaurants…
Looks like a pure winner. What are you fussing about then?
Scared of needles? Don’t worry, if you cry you will get a cookie.

Posted by: hopehely | Dec 21 2021 17:03 utc | 188

jinn @188
What is wrong with you? For the last time, in the link I provided the source of data from Denmark is given:
https://www.ssi.dk/-/media/cdn/files/covid19/omikron/statusrapport/rapport-omikronvarianten-16122021-fk3t.pdf?la=da
Go to page 8, Table 4 – you can’t miss it, unless of course you want to…

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 17:57 utc | 189

hopehely @189
It is totally irrelevant what I believe. Under normal circumstances concoctions go through a well established and (hopefully) thorough process of testing, improving, more testing, checking and finally approval. We’ve had vaccines done this way for a while.
Just because the dear leader says we should be afraid of the flu does not make it so!
Now if you ‘believe’ that what Pfizer and Moderna are pushing are ‘vaccines’ then show me. Where is the data, where is the process, where is the whole fucking report? Oh, you don’t have it? That’s ok, but don’t talk to me about belief and please don’t call jamba juice a vaccine…
The burden of proof is not on me, in case you haven’t noticed.

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 18:05 utc | 190

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 18:05 utc | 191
In Serbia you can choose which vaccine you want. Western, Russian, Chinese. They have them all.
Russians go there to get Pfizer/Moderna so they can travel to EU.
So, if you want to get vaccinated, do not trust mRNA vaccines, but you think eastern vaccines are genuine, you can go to Belgrade and get Sputnik or Sinovac.

Posted by: hopehely | Dec 21 2021 18:43 utc | 191

Idiocrates
For the last time, in the link I provided the source of data from Denmark is given:
https://www.ssi.dk/-/media/cdn/files/covid19/omikron/statusrapport/rapport-omikronvarianten-16122021-fk3t.pdf?la=da
______________________________________________________________________________
I already told you that I looked at the reports from the Danish health authority. The table (pg 8 table 4) that you now have finally produced does not support your claim “(vaccines) are so scientific they don’t really work ahem anymore”.
The vaccines were approved based on evidence that they reduce severe illness (hospitalization) and death. As far as I can see you have not produced any new evidence that is no longer true.
The table you are relying on shows that almost 100% of the cases are now Omicron. It also shows that 9.5% of the cases are people who have had the booster vaccination. Elsewhere in the Danish health authority reports you will find that ~40% of the population has had the booster. That is evidence that the boosters are providing some protection against infection. If the boosters were doing nothing in preventing infection then statistically one would expect that 40% of the cases would be booster vaccinated.

Posted by: jinn | Dec 21 2021 18:46 utc | 192

Oh no. The dreaded omnicron variant. What are we to do?

Posted by: goldhoarder | Dec 21 2021 18:50 utc | 193

goldhoarder @194
Hehehe, clearly you need to:
1. purge memory of what happened before, because omnicorn is so scary and new.
2. ignore new data and facts, because omnicorn is so scary and new.
3. believe what the dear leader says, because omnicorn is so scary and new.
4. be scared of omnicorn, because the dear leader says so and its new.
5. rush to get a booster, because omnicorn is so scary and new.
6. if you ain’t been jabbed yet, get jabbed, because omnicorn is so scary and new.
7. believe science, because omnicorn is so scary and new.
optionally (applies to MoA readers) you can go to MoA comments section and say it out loud that omnicorn is so scary and new.
pardon the spelling. I used to be dyslexic, but now I am KO, and I have relapses when scared of omnicorn.

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 19:32 utc | 194

jinn @193
I already told you that I looked at the reports from the Danish health authority.
You didn’t.
The table (pg 8 table 4) that you now have finally produced does not support your claim
I have produced nothing: I only sent a link. I made no claims, just quoted the source. If you can read AND comprehend (which is not at all clear, given your difficulty in following links and parsing tabular data) you are welcome to make up your own mind.

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 19:42 utc | 195

Can I have a chip implanted which records my status as one who has not been jabbed with jamba juice? If not, then what is the point?
https://www.rt.com/news/543924-sweden-vaccine-microchip-covid19/

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 20:01 utc | 196

Idiotcrates wrote:
I only sent a link. I made no claims
_______________________________________________________
You made this claim:
” jamba juice (vaccines) are so scientific they don’t really work ahem anymore.”
I have quoted that claim and repeatedly ask to see evidence to support that claim and you have repeatedly claimed there is evidence but have provided none.
Are you now admitting you have no evidence to support that claim?

Posted by: jinn | Dec 21 2021 20:36 utc | 197

jinn @198
Are you now admitting you have no evidence to support that claim?
Nope, I already sent the link in support of this claim – data from Denmark. You do not need to agree with the interpretation…good luck with the booster shots.

Posted by: Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 21:10 utc | 198

@Idiocrates | Dec 21 2021 16:31 utc | 187
You misunderstood me. You make out as if jamba juice is a real vaccine, but it is not. If it were, the normal vaccine approval would have been granted, but it was not. Instead, we will learn what its made of in about a 100 years.
So, I agree with you that ‘vaccines can work’, but jamba juice cannot and is not.

That is fine. I think the mRNA shots from Pfizer and Moderna are too experimental, too unproven; their newness may explain the problems Denmark is having (Denmark has been using mostly Pfizer). I would prefer vaccines made using proven methods.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 21 2021 22:24 utc | 199

Idiocrates wrote: good luck with the booster shots.
______________________________________________________
I have no plans to get a booster or a vaccination for covid. My research tells me there are better treatments that protect against severe ilness and death from covid without the safety concerns of vaccines.
I also hope to never be made to look like a fool (like you are) by passing along false information that anybody can check and see is false.

Posted by: jinn | Dec 21 2021 22:58 utc | 200