Posted this on open thread. Putting it here due to relevance:

So Elon Musk attempted two acts of terrorism against the Chinese space station (while it was occupied by human-beings). These acts, which expose the true purpose of SpaceX, have gone entirely unreported in media, mainstream or otherwise. I don't remember it getting a mention at MoA or anywhere else.

Below is the complaint China wrote to the UN which details how the space station had to carry out emergency evasive maneuverers on two seperate occasions....

Information furnished in conformity with the Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies

Note verbale dated 3 December 2021 from the Permanent Mission of China to the United Nations (Vienna) addressed to the Secretary-General

The Permanent Mission of China to the United Nations (Vienna) presents its compliments to the Secretary-General of the United Nations and has the honour to refer to article V of the Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies 1 (the Outer Space Treaty), which provides that “States Parties to the Treaty shall immediately inform the other States Parties to the Treaty or the Secretary-General of the United Nations of any phenomena they discover in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, which could constitute a danger to the life or health of astronauts”. In accordance with the above-mentioned article, China hereby informs the Secretary-General of the following phenomena which constituted dangers to the life or health of astronauts aboard the China Space Station.

The China Manned Space Programme completed five launch missions in 2021, with the successful launching into orbit of the Tianhe core module of the China Space Station, the Tianzhou-II and Tianzhou-III cargo spacecraft and the Shenzhou-XII and Shenzhou-XIII crewed spacecraft. The China Space Station has travelled stably in a near-circular orbit at an altitude of around 390 km on an orbital inclination of about 41.5 degrees.

During this period, Starlink satellites launched by Space Exploration Technologies Corporation (SpaceX) of the United States of America have had two close encounters with the China Space Station. For safety reasons, the China Space Station implemented preventive collision avoidance control on 1 July and 21 October 2021, respectively.

1. The first collision avoidance

As from 19 April 2020, the Starlink-1095 satellite had been travelling stably in orbit at an average altitude of around 555 km. Between 16 May and 24 June 2021, the Starlink-1095 satellite manoeuvred continuously to an orbit of around 382 km, and then stayed in that orbit. A close encounter occurred between the Starlink-1095 satellite and the China Space Station on 1 July 2021. For safety reasons, the China Space Station took the initiative to conduct an evasive manoeuvre in the evening of that day to avoid a potential collision between the two spacecraft.

2. The second collision avoidance

On 21 October 2021, the Starlink-2305 satellite had a subsequent close encounter with the China Space Station. As the satellite was continuously manoeuvring, the manoeuvre strategy was unknown and orbital errors were hard to be assessed, there was thus a collision risk between the Starlink-2305 satellite and the China Space Station. To ensure the safety and lives of in-orbit astronauts, the China Space Station performed an evasive manoeuvre again on the same day to avoid a potential collision between the two spacecraft.

In view of the foregoing, China wishes to request the Secretary-General of the United Nations to circulate the above-mentioned information to all States parties to the Outer Space Treaty and bring to their attention that, in accordance with article VI of the Treaty, “States Parties to the Treaty shall bear international responsibility for national activities in outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, whether such activities are carried on by governmental agencies or by non-governmental entities, and for assuring that national activities are carried out in conformity with the provisions set forth in the present Treaty.”

Posted by: UK Defektor | Dec 27 2021 13:34 utc | 1

there's also an obsessed foreign policy subset of "weak/declining" china :)

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/07/china-weak-dangerous-china-nightmare-dan-blumenthal-review/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/miltonezrati/2021/03/18/chinas-apparent-strengths-are-really-weaknesses/
https://www.economist.com/films/2021/06/25/what-is-the-weak-spot-of-chinas-economy
https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/chinas-weakness-is-what-makes-it-so-dangerous/
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/09/24/china-great-power-united-states/
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/18/china-danger-military-missile-taiwan/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-29/china-s-economy-set-for-another-weak-showing-as-factories-slump

Posted by: rototo | Dec 27 2021 13:46 utc | 2

at what cost to the rich, it should say ...

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 27 2021 14:07 utc | 3

Obviously central controlled 'western' propaganda at work. But at what cost? Certainly media legitimacy goes out the window.

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 27 2021 14:09 utc | 4

LMAO the sheer volume of the "cost" is hilarious. This was a really good compilation. We need a couple meme song to go with the weaponization and cost memes. Iran also has three memes: "proxy", "malign", and my personal fav: "charm offensive"

Posted by: DarvishDalghak | Dec 27 2021 14:19 utc | 5

Thanks for the update, and hope You're not having any after-effects from Your hospital stay.
Here in Norway, I've seen several of the articles ("news items" or "op-eds") cited above, but just a few days after thei publicatin in the North Atlntis Angloshere. But with so Apohllonically (or Dyonysically drunkardly) appalling language errors and misunderstandings that one can clearly see they have been translated from English. Keep up thegood work!

Posted by: Tollef Ås/秋涛乐 | Dec 27 2021 14:34 utc | 6

Several notes.

I read a few articles on China's high speed train system, and in the most recent the cost versus revenue was a worry/criticism, even though it would be easy to argue or at least discuss about positive externalities worthy of subsidies.

Similar cost related criticism was laid on the huge program to develop new gas fields in Eastern Siberia and connect them with pipelines to China. It seems to be true that the long term contracts signed with China when the natural gas prices were very depressed were not best possible, but since those projects have to be considered in 20-50 year time frame, it was silly even then. Now the concerns about profitability of delivering natural gas to China in the future look hilarious.

There is an objective aspect in some "cost/global" articles. China is dominating so many commodity markets that decisions impacting import and export of China have tremendous impact on importers and exporters alike.

Most glaring is the lack of "at what cost" questions concerning the West. EU delays approval of North Stream II, but at what cost? Technocrats decreased investments in fossil fuels in EU and reliance on so-called clean fuels, but at what cost? Both are phenomenal.

Madam Baerbock speaks her mind, but at what cost? This girl sends markets to panic which is not a part of her job description.

Ukraine "decreases reliance on Russia", but at what cost? Some estimate that the resulting losses are many times larger than gains from "western orientation", western commentators do not attempt any such calculations. Freedom is worth every price if someone else pays for it (USA likes when the cost is born by EU, and EU likes when Ukrainians hold the short end of the stick).

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Dec 27 2021 14:40 utc | 7

Piotr
You have addressed the real issues.
And the mind warping stupidity of the green ideology.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Dec 27 2021 14:40 utc | 7

"Most glaring is the lack of "at what cost" questions concerning the West. EU delays approval of North Stream II, but at what cost? Technocrats decreased investments in fossil fuels in EU and reliance on so-called clean fuels, but at what cost? Both are phenomenal."

Posted by: JPC | Dec 27 2021 14:53 utc | 8

Now I know to read any title that contains 'China' and 'at what cost' because it threatens the cult of U.S. hegemony.

1. Articles about environment: After skimming these articles, I agree, the 'at what cost' was so inappropriate for the content, it does look like it was planted, 'will they succeed' would have been more natural for these articles.
Air quality has been notoriously bad in China, ongoing efforts to improve it is a good thing.

2. articles about AI: 'threatened by U.S.' would be most accurate or some suitable alternative.
This group of headlines says that China is vulnerable in the chip area. There is a condescending tone because it says, ML (Machine Learning) is data sets and processing power, and not so much about innovation, this is true. But I would not discount China's ability to innovate.
In using AI to implement a police state, 'at what cost', is appropriatehere, as it conjures up everyone's worst fears, even for our own govt. Pointing out how ML can be abused by a govt is a good thing.

3. I can see how 'at what cost' can be used for the other categories but agree that the repetitious use wreaks of information war.

Posted by: Christian J. Chuba | Dec 27 2021 15:23 utc | 9

What this points out more than anything is that the media is issued a set of talking points that they faithfully echo.

One of the 'benefits' of media consolidation (thank you Bill Clinton and the Telecommunications Act of 1996) is that it's much easier to 'manage' a few big media corporations than it is hundreds of small independent ones.

Posted by: Black Cloud | Dec 27 2021 15:33 utc | 10

>>>>>: UK Defektor | Dec 27 2021 13:34 utc | 1

Elon Musk clearly believes in American Exceptionalism and no doubt if some SpaceX object crashes into the Chinese space station it will be China's fault because everyone should know that the USA was the first country to put a man in space so accordingly it owns all of space.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Dec 27 2021 15:40 utc | 11

They don't need the directive. The level of groupthink is high enough that everyone has aligned against China very quickly and chooses the negative angle for writing about China to reinforce its reputation. 'At what cost' is similar to 'the dark side of' or 'the dirty secret behind'. Another angle would be to interpret a small damaging story as 'the first sign of bad things to come'.
People always overestimate central coordination as source of order . All that propaganda needed to do is give China sufficiently bad reputation with influential sources, then the rest takes care of itself. And for external enemies that really does not take much work.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Dec 27 2021 15:43 utc | 12

"I didn't graduate from the 7th grade to put up with this shit!" Chef, "Apocalypse Now"

good thing the covidiocy promoted by the ruling class in the West isn't, inter alia, part of the propaganda war.

Bloomberg will have Americans convinced that it is China's hording of Ivermectin that is causing the impending collapse of the US healthcare system.
-------
one great thing about technology advancement is that we can develop new metaphors to explain people's thoughts and behaviors. Like BACKPEDALING.

where is the Koch-fueled Resistance (tm) this a.m. to wave away, gun in hand, that another day dawned in China, w/o another covid death?

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Dec 27 2021 15:47 utc | 13

This is extremely dangerous to out democracy!

Posted by: farm ecologist | Dec 27 2021 16:02 utc | 14

Its the anti-China, Russia, media's continuous spouting of propaganda to manufacture consent, consent to justify eventual war with firstly Russia then China, or at the very least damage them economically. To justify the huge spending on weapons by the USA to sate the Industrial Military Complex Oceania, must always be at war with Eurasia.

There must always be a bad guy, one that can be demonised in the media and economically shunned, its all a game at our expense to make the real bad guys richer, and the so called bad guys become worse come election time.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Dec 27 2021 16:09 utc | 15

Gee, you'd almost think that our Glorious Free Media (TM) was following a script just like Pravda or something.
But NO!!!! these headlines writers all came, completely independently, to the phrase "but at what cost?".
But at what cost did they?

Posted by: Patrick Armstrong | Dec 27 2021 16:09 utc | 16

Posted by: Christian J. Chuba | Dec 27 2021 15:23 utc | 9

Sorry to nitpick, but I think you mean "repetitious use reeks of information war". Which it certainly does.

Posted by: farm ecologist | Dec 27 2021 16:31 utc | 17

"At what cost?

Hilariously, and tragically, this is the question that neoliberal economics has been ignoring for the last 50 years. As everyone most likely already knows that the Chicago School of Economics intentionally ignored that question in its underlying assumptions. Primarily, this includes environmental cost, social costs, and costs that are being born by our children.

It's really funny that the propagandists in employ of our oligarchs never posed that question to fundamental economics that has our "civilization" headed to extinction, but they still think that hiding out in New Zealand, underground, or Mars is a viable long term option. At what cost?

Posted by: Michael.j | Dec 27 2021 16:36 utc | 18

When you measure everything against the cost structure imposed by western capitalism, everything China does inevitably looks costly. Totally absent from the analysis is the question of benefits. The west thinks only of profits. China thinks of the benefits not only to China and the Chinese people, but to the countries and peoples with whom they do business. The long term superiority of such a strategy is blindingly obvious to any open minded observer. It's the reason why China and Russia will prevail.

Posted by: pasha | Dec 27 2021 16:53 utc | 19

So is that endogenous or exongenous cost?

The West hides all the cost of their perfidy to stay in control of society.

Quite the list of examples b....you would think it was a meme....

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 27 2021 16:58 utc | 20

SpaceX object crashes into the Chinese space station it will be China's fault because everyone should know that the USA was the first country to put a man in space so accordingly it owns all of space.
Posted by: Ghost Ship | Dec 27 2021 15:40 utc | 11

Ghost Ship, I know you are being facetious, but this is factually wrong. It should read: USSR put the first man in space, so Russia owns all of space. Remember Yuri Gagarin?
But then again, with the empire of lies…

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Dec 27 2021 16:58 utc | 21

The West is nowadays quite psychotic and delusional. It sets out to demonise rather like the Nazis and the "Bolshevik-Jewish threat" or the Kaiser and his "Yellow Peril". It is like some Big Brother directed propaganda and almost an inversion of what China under Mao or Stalinist USSR used to propagate against the West.

As for economic efficiency - I really would like to know the economic pluses from the Iraq War, the intervention in Syria, the destruction of Libya, involvement in Ukraine, war in Kosovo........or even the plethora of bases the US maintains across the planet.

I should like to know the welfare benefits of the F-35 development of the Yak-141 - and quiet why aircraft carriers like Gerald D Ford are being built - and Doris Miller - at costs of $15 bn upwards in a country where people live in tents.

Quite why UK scrapped frigates to pay for two aircraft carriers with no aircraft eludes me.

So if China and Russia are so incredibly insane, can anyone clarify why the GDR ceased to be run by Communists in 1990 and de-industrialised under West German supervision - yet the CCP in China created a major industrial power over the same period on which Germany is wholly dependent.

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Dec 27 2021 18:04 utc | 22

farm ecologist | Dec 27 2021 16:02 utc | 14
the 'consensus narrative' of the US is that 1) we are the greatest nation in the history of ever, indispensable and all that 2) whose, weapons, i mean leadership, the world needs more than ever but 3) who is also conveniently not responsible for anything. if you asked a typical American what the US is doing in the world at all, much less what makes us so indispensable, you would find a black hole of cluelessness. maybe we are not bombing Assad enough? or maybe we give too much in 'foreign aid' helping all the helpless loser countries, like Haiti?

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Dec 27 2021 18:07 utc | 23

Piotr Berman; I think you will find France has a cost/value conundrum too.

SNCF has TGV networks with stations built for pork barrel and log-rolling rather than necessity. I mean €47 bn Debt is a lot for a rail system to carry especially when the Spinetta Report states France is “unique in Europe” in allocating around 15% of its annual rail funding to routes that carry just 2% of passengers.

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Dec 27 2021 18:09 utc | 24

It's all the IngSoc channel 24/7:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIevazPIPzU

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Dec 27 2021 18:10 utc | 25

@ Paul Greenwood |22

Orwell expressed it in the MiniTru aphorism "War is Peace". Basically, technology is has attained the point that scarcity and want could be eradicated but doing so would pose too many changes/problems for the powers that be. Accordingly, the excess wealth has to be squandered/destroyed or it could destabilize their control. Policies like wasting money on useless weapons systems, high rates of incarceration, unemployment, delaying youth entry into the labor force, and general bad management are all deployed to preserve the scarcity paradigm and prevent humanity from transitioning to a wealth paradigm.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Dec 27 2021 18:16 utc | 26

Global Times provides this excellent infographic aimed directly at BigLie media's propaganda meme as it's titled, "China's commitment to the world in 2021." It's really a shame such graphics can't be posted as comments, so you'll need to click the link to see what China's soft power did during 2021 that the collective West couldn't or wouldn't.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 27 2021 18:24 utc | 27

They are weaponizing too...

"China Closes Ranks in Battle For Rare-Earth Control"
"Analysts believe that China’s near-monopoly of rare earth metals gives it a trump card in its rivalry with the US for global dominance, and it has shown a willingness to weaponize the trade."
https://asiatimes.com/2021/12/china-closes-ranks-in-battle-for-rare-earth-control/

Posted by: jayc | Dec 27 2021 18:29 utc | 28

This article has recently run in numerous papers.

"Laos’ scenic railway built on mountain of Chinese debt"

Almost nothing is stated about its benefits or that Laos is understandably exited about the railway.

Posted by: Douglas Houck | Dec 27 2021 18:32 utc | 29

Piotr Berman @7
Yes, that is the real question, at what cost???!!! all of the stupidities of the US/western system. At the head of the list: the cursed militarism. The cursed military budget literally steals food out of the mouths of babies, as well as destroys the environment. Were the military budget curtailed by even 50% (though it ought to be curtailed by at least 90%), so many economic problems would go away. That is the first root of all evil, even if not the only one. And the stupids imagine that their military interventions express power, when actually the opposite is the case: they express weakness, futility, uselessness, and waste. The entire US hegemony depends just on the dollar supremacy alone; while the dollar stands, the US hegemony remains, when the dollar goes, bye-bye to the US military as well. The distributional conflict that will ensue from a collapse of the dollar would probably dump us into a civil war, which may happen even without that collapse anyway. And if that happens, the carefully-cultivated cult of American militarism will also be responsible. At what cost? indeed.

As for the whole space business, two can play at any game of accidental destruction of space stations. Even without such evil plots, it is possible that space junk accumulation could eventually render all space travel impossible.

As for Michael.j saying @18 that the elite "still think that hiding out in New Zealand, underground, or Mars is a viable long term option," yes, some of them do think that, but none of it will ever work. Even from my childhood in the fairly isolated enviroment of Seattle, I thought that New Zealand looked like a good option, and indeed it seems to have many virtues. But it is still on the same globe as everything else, and no one can tell what disasters may strike where in the long term; there is just no way to ascertain that. Right now, the southern hemisphere may look better than the northern from the aspects of pollution or the possible fallout of nuclear war, but that is not certain, as shown by the appearance of a larger hole in the ozone there. There just isn't any guaranteed place of safety. As for underground, that depends on complicated systems functioning long-term with very limited maintenance resources. In such a refuge, if anything goes wrong, everybody dies. And that is especially obvious in places like the moon or Mars where an artificial, enclosed atmosphere would have to be maintained. Back in the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 when all our neighbors were building bomb shelters, I said to my father, "Dad, aren't we going to build a bomb shelter too?" He scoffed at that, saying, "Who would want to survive a nuclear war?" Indeed.

Posted by: Cabe | Dec 27 2021 18:39 utc | 30

click on a new tab in MS Edge and get bombarded w/crap like this:

----
Biden agrees with GOP governors - there is no 'federal solution' to pandemic-FOX News

Trudeau says China playing Western states against each other - Bloomberg

and

Hong Kong is clinging to 'zero covid' and extreme quarantine. Talent is leaving in droves - Washington Post
-----

Western disunity is China's fault, incl, I guess, at the state level of the US?

there can't be a federal response b/c the virus starts acting differently across state and national lines. just ask the scientists populating the comments at MoA. but be careful: they are armed.

btw, assuming biden actually said what Fox says, it means the US no longer exists. people need to act accordingly.

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Dec 27 2021 18:41 utc | 31

Further undermining that meme is this article, "China honors pledges to scrap ownership limits on foreign automakers in new negative list," that details China's further opening of its economy to foreign business interests, which is in line with what China promised to do and thus adds to its substantial credibility--a credibility the meme is aimed at curtailing.

So, what we see immediately is that China acts with actions while all the Outlaw US Empire has are words, and false ones at that which further erodes its quickly crumbling credibility.

And in the realm of tech metaverse competition, I urge those interested to read this article, "China's Baidu launches metaverse app, as more firms join race in 'the next big thing'," which IMO will be a huge hit when the Olympics open in Beijing.

China's preparing to begin another Long March and there's nothing the Outlaw US Empire can do to halt it. Six years ago, I urged the Empire to join China's BRI instead of combatting it, but it's so addicted to its Zero-sum mentality that wasn't to be so it's now in even worse shape than it was in as 2015 turned into 2016. Clearly, Neoliberal Parasites can only do one thing--destroy the living economy by debilitating its most important asset: Its Human Capital.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 27 2021 18:46 utc | 32

trying to find an equivalent to this:
Hong Kong is clinging to 'zero covid' and extreme quarantine. Talent is leaving in droves - Washington Post

Russia clings to its "zero Nazis" policy and talent flees? Mexico adopts a "zero glyphosate" policy so all scientists flee, taking all the corn with them? Vietnam adopts a 'zero swine flu' policy and Hormel flees?

who the fuck needs such 'talent'? such people value participation in capitalism more than life itself. oh thank god they are all coming here to the US where they will fit right in. (jk. I assume this WaPo story is total bullshit.)

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Dec 27 2021 18:51 utc | 33

jayc @28--

Global Times article reveals rare earths are a national security asset, and the article should be read in tandem with the other I provided @32.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 27 2021 18:51 utc | 34

Same theme as in the Cold War. Soviet achievements but "at great cost".

Posted by: Rob | Dec 27 2021 18:58 utc | 35

"Hong Kong is clinging to 'zero covid' and extreme quarantine. Talent is leaving in droves" - Washington Post

I used one of my free peeks to see, per the Langley Post, who is it that's 'leaving' because of China's policies of saving lives? just what 'talent' are they losing?

A link to shitrag S China Morn Post, from the WaPo article. What's Cantonese for used colostomy bags?

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Dec 27 2021 19:10 utc | 36

Nice job at compiling a comprehensive smattering of western narrative targeted at China in negative lights. Thank you, b.

Economic is only one sector of human endeavor that western MSM uses to ridicule China with. Other sectors are human rights, military threats, cultural oddities, environmental scars, .....just about anything that racists can think of, even including physical appearance distortions and mockeries. As a Chinese I've been aware of it ever since I came to USA for college back in 1969. But I also noticed that the populations at large, both in the US, or the 5-eyes, or really in most of Caucasian Europe, were either oblivious to this offensive attitude or actually in concurrence, until only about 5 years or so ago. Used to be, I didn't really give much of a care to this, since growing up in Hong Kong had gotten me used to being second-best in human merit compared to the Caucasians and besides, what others' think is only a matter of their opinions, why the hell should I care if I don't want to have anything to do them anyway.

The power that be choose to use this tactic to denigrate whom they consider as enemy because it seemed to work, as seen by how deeply the western populace has been brainwashed over time, even among much of the elite class. I am acquainted with university professors/scholars whose fields of studies are in humanity areas, and yet they exhibit prejudices when come to China wholly along the lines of western MSM narratives. Most of them sound just like the politicians in 5-eye nations who are competing with each other on who can lie nastier. To me, this status quo is not an indication of how brilliant the western propagandists are, it is instead how intellectually feeble the western mindsets are to be so easily manipulated. Through this I sort of come to understand how a silly/outragious set of ancient fables can be built into a hugely pervasive religion called Christianity. As a matter of fact, I see much similarities between how Christian religion and the western political propaganda are propagated.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Dec 27 2021 19:20 utc | 37

Orwell expressed it in the MiniTru aphorism "War is Peace". Basically, technology is has attained the point that scarcity and want could be eradicated but doing so would pose too many changes/problems for the powers that be. Accordingly, the excess wealth has to be squandered/destroyed or it could destabilize their control. Policies like wasting money on useless weapons systems, high rates of incarceration, unemployment, delaying youth entry into the labor force, and general bad management are all deployed to preserve the scarcity paradigm and prevent humanity from transitioning to a wealth paradigm.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Dec 27 2021 18:16 utc | 26

Exactly, it is not merely greed that makes them want to keep the rest of us poor. They want us poor so they can still be The Owners, the Chosen Ones. Walter Karp called it "The Principle of Waste" or something like that, and it explains much about the Pentagon's failures. Highly expensive things that don't work become a good thing in this view.

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 27 2021 19:24 utc | 38

I discovered a new commuter bullet train line to a small station 3km away from my home in Peking. It only took the train 20mins to travel from Beijing station to the station. The ticket is priced at a mere $1 USD and it is probably the coziest train I have even taken. I traveled in it this morning again, but heading in the opposite direction to visit my dentist in the downtown and there were more commuters, most of whom were heading to office; luckily there were still plenty unoccupied seats.

Posted by: Keith McClary | Dec 27 2021 20:09 utc | 39

@Paul Greenwood 24

If memory serves, when France privatized the TGV system, it retained the debt and pension benefits, giving the buyers a hefty subsidy.

Posted by: bob sykes | Dec 27 2021 20:16 utc | 40

@Posted by: bob sykes | Dec 27 2021 20:16 utc | 40

SNCF, the company that runs the high speed rail network in France is still a public company.

https://www.france24.com/en/france/20210917-france-celebrates-40-years-of-high-speed-tgv-trains

Posted by: Roger | Dec 27 2021 20:42 utc | 41

To: Oriental Voice | Dec 27 2021 19:20 utc | 37

On behalf of my fellow Caucasians, I apologize deeply for the ridiculous attitudes that some among us take toward folks whose ethnic origins might differ a bit from ours.

As for Christianity, I’m certain that you would be very interested in a very well-researched, well-presented and highly informative Youtube video titled “Caesar’s Messiah,” about the true origins of that religion.

Posted by: AntiSpin | Dec 27 2021 20:45 utc | 42

Posted by: Keith McClary | Dec 27 2021 20:09 utc | 39

And the number of bullet trains in the USA: 0. Bring this up to many Americans and marvel at the asinine excuses for why "we" don't need any.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Dec 27 2021 22:21 utc | 43

thanks b... i would question the cost of this long experiment with money... seems to work for a very small % while not working for many.. i would throw the whole concept of private ownership of land into the mix... we'd be much further ahead without these chains we've been shackled with..

Posted by: james | Dec 27 2021 22:37 utc | 44

re: Keith McClary | Dec 27 2021 20:09 utc | 39

Warning: the author of the article https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/random-photos.994801/page-10#post-6534591 appears to be a "supporter/member/inactivist of the highly subversive tangping movement.
I guess having nearly 2 generations of "6 wallet little emperors" has its COST!!!

(I am being mischievous)

Posted by: tucenz | Dec 27 2021 22:48 utc | 45

@1

"I don't remember it getting a mention at MoA or anywhere else."

Check again.

Posted by: FNORD | Dec 27 2021 23:13 utc | 46

@AntiSpin, #42:

Nice of you to offer apology, and thank you for the video link suggestion on Roman creation of Christianity. From what you expressed, it' clear you are not one in the category of people I tiraded against. But please be assured that I personally did not take offense of the general Caucasian attitude towards my ethnicity. I think ethnic prejudice is something quite common place amongst all ethnicities, my own included. Just that during the past 200-300 years the Euro-Caucasian has been the dominant culture and thus the consequences of their prejudices have been more dire. As for my mention of Christianity, I am merely pointing out that western populace is falling prey to MSM propaganda in the same way as they fell prey to religious propaganda since Roman days, as your video suggestion confirms.

The western MSM professes that their criticism of China is based on ideology, on difference in values, and on humanity moral grounds. I think that's a smoke screen since the same accusations they piled on China can be easily hauled on any of the Arab nations (including the Semite in the middle of them :-), on Indonesia/India, on Japan and North/South Korea, on even themselves. You don't see them wasting time or energy on these entities. Their choice of China in particular conceals a tinge of racism. I think that racism sentiment is strong with the general population of the west, consciously or subconsciously. By population of the West I include the Slavs (West, East, or Yugo), the Hellenics, and the Bulgar, Tartars, and Turks. However, the intensity or prominence of that sentiment is induced by some degrees of rivalry and jealousy. I think the West senses in China an ethnicity of equal merit if not perhaps even superior, and that ethnicity is on the rise. Hence, their political leadership's tirade against that ethnicity is received with resonance and approval. I believe that, whether it's in UK, or France, or Deutsche, or OZ/Aotearoa, and these days in Hindu, any politician running for office will find denigration of China a useful rallying point for their candidacy, regardless of whether China has actually done anything wrong.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Dec 27 2021 23:24 utc | 47

SNCF has TGV networks with stations built for pork barrel and log-rolling rather than necessity. I mean €47 bn Debt is a lot for a rail system to carry especially when the Spinetta Report states France is “unique in Europe” in allocating around 15% of its annual rail funding to routes that carry just 2% of passengers.

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Dec 27 2021 18:09 utc | 24

2% of passengers with 15% of rail funding is not necessarily bad, a better comparison would be percentage of passenger-kilometers. Most of the traffic is on suburban or short distance trains. That said, the Chinese investments are in trillions, the system proportionally larger, and some parts are sparsely used.

One externality is that Chinese government wishes the industrialization and wages to be increasingly uniform across the country, including Tibet and Xinjiang. Connecting all provinces with good transportation allows to locate new industries easily in all provinces. I assume that freight and slow+cheap train lines were not neglected, at least, not abandoned. One has to remember that the differences between provinces were drastic even 20 years ago, and apparently, this is not the case anymore. At least, the differences are much, much milder.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Dec 28 2021 0:59 utc | 48

@ Piotr Berman | Dec 28 2021 0:59 utc | 48 with the comment about how China is making strategic decisions about transportation for its regions which will promote equality of opportunity for its peoples and regions.

Thanks for that. This is what people need to see, the people/profit oriented decisions made by global private finance empire and other nations making their own mixed economy decisions.

China is showing to the world through its example that people centric government scales quite nicely and produces more equitable results.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 28 2021 1:16 utc | 49

Lol, thanks b. Excellent piece.

Posted by: aquadraht | Dec 28 2021 1:32 utc | 50

Season Greetings from China, and trust this note finds you well and that you are fully recovered!

Posted by: C Forest | Dec 28 2021 1:33 utc | 51

Netflix produced a great satire, 'Don't Look Up' https://www.netflix.com/title/81252357 about our govt, MSM, and social media class.

(Btw I never understood people who reject a movie because they are offended by one thing). Anyway, scientists discover that a very large comet is going to score a bull's eye on our beloved planet in 6mo's and the movie depicts our complete dysfunction.

It has the ...
1. Populist, sloganeering President dividing everything into us vs them.
2. Pop culture icons (the liberals), narcissistically hijacking causes to promote themselves on social media.
U.S. public enabling both.
3. The U.S. Oligarch, lording his wisdom above us. This is the Jeff Bezos-Musk-Jobs character and the best reason to watch the show.

Just when the scientists finally convince the President to a mission deflect the comet, 'Bezos-Jobs' informs her that it contains $40T of 'rare earth metals that only China has' and another $100T of other precious metals. She scraps the mission so that Bezos can launch drones to shatter the comet to harvest it (spoiler, the private sector cannot do everything).
The govt starts a media campaign to promote the jobs that the comet is going to create.

---------------------------
I believe the show is ahead of its time in capturing the creepiness of our billionaire class, and our worshipful deference to them. We will eventually be able to see this more clearly.

Posted by: Christian J. Chuba | Dec 28 2021 3:16 utc | 52

Bashing China:
In my experience the most toxic attitude towards China, come from so called overseas Chinese, they think of themselves as some sort of Yellow Caucasians, few days ago I clashed with a Malaysian Chinese, he started talking trash about China, and claimed he considered himself Australian, as he had Citizenship from there, I told him listen, in 5000 years history of China, no Government has delivered so much, no constant internal wars, no famine, elimination of poverty, high tech railway, airports, education, food sovereignty. Can you do better? he said no, then he talk about China Sea, I told him having come from Malaysia you should know why it is called China see! and no Malaysian Sea as well all those islands where populated by soldiers by orders of US, and the troops were taken there on American ships after Japan surrendered! Any one has to understand present China has to read works of the writer by name of Lu Xun, which he never heard of, I ask him does he know who was Peng Dehuai? he said no, New Era in China against the Imperialism begins with Peng Dehuai, commander of Chinese forces in Korea, his defeat of US forces, even impressed Stalin, and inspired anti colonial struggles around the world.

Posted by: Grishka | Dec 28 2021 3:50 utc | 53

@53 grishka

That was certainly a depressing experience with a moron. But to my experience, only a tiny fraction of "huaren" expat Chinese are that way. There is a great and famous blog by US chinese https://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/ which I can warmly recommend. And even in Singapore you find sympathy or at least balanced views.

Of course, there are always "running dogs".

Posted by: aquadraht | Dec 28 2021 4:09 utc | 54

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Dec 27 2021 23:24 utc | 47

I don't really agree with this one. Racism is regularly employed by the system in a cryptic manner, but the test for whether it isn't ideological at all is to determine whether #MeToo and other lunacy is happening in the West (it is).

In relation to the Peng Shuai matter, I've been commenting on Reddit about it and there are plenty of people that have a definition of "rape" or "sexual assault" that is not the legal definition but just simple regret, and they use this ad hoc definition to determine that Peng Shuai was sexually assaulted.

What is interesting about neo-liberalism is that it can weaponize anything that it has first used against its own population to attack other countries, cultures and peoples. A lot of Asian Americans don't see the ideological aspect of it because they have subconsciously bought into #MeToo, LGBTQ+ and other neo-liberal memes.

Posted by: Jake the Snake | Dec 28 2021 5:10 utc | 55

@Oriental Voice #47

Anti-Chinese racism in the US, where it has been further exacerbated today by the MSM's constant litany of lies against China, unfortunately has a very long pedigree. The ultimate sources of its inspiration are the "Yellow Peril" fear of being overwhelmed by the number of Chinese and the concomitant civilizational envy and rivalry owing to Chinese immensely long and completely independent civilizational pedigree. China has been the world's most populous state since its foundation as a united polity over 2,200 years ago. Actually, today, because of the low birthrate there, the percent of Chinese in the world is dropping and is probably the least it has ever been, something like 18%. Fear of Chinese immigration started right away with the 1849 gold rush in California and led to the Chinese Exclusion Act banning immigration from China completely from 1882 to 1943. So this is certainly not a new problem, nor was it initially born out of Chinese independence being restored by the communists in 1949.

It is true that there are lots of other US racisms as well, including specifically against people of African descent, Arabs, East Indians, Latin Americans, and indigenous American Indians, nor does that exhaust the list. Each one of these racisms has its own peculiar characteristics, but all are exclusionary, and all have certainly been used to divide and conquer on the one side but also to unite the white population against perceived enemies and threats on the other, while at the same time diverting attention from the actual character and doings of the ruling class.

Posted by: Cabe | Dec 28 2021 6:14 utc | 56

The full spectrum media attack on China reminds me of similar (and very effective) attacks on British left leader Jeremy Corbyn. The ruling class mobilises attacks from a wide range of angles on a wide range of subjects. Then, when one starts to get "traction" it is developed and exploited further by the rest of the media.

Posted by: Pete Jones | Dec 28 2021 6:39 utc | 57

@Piotr Berman | Dec 28 2021 0:59 utc | 48 @psychohistorian | Dec 28 2021 1:16 utc | 49

I have traveled a little around China, and can confirm your hypothesis regarding the use of infrastructure investment to enhance equity amongst the regions. Wherever I have traveled, the air, road and rail infrastructure has been impressive. Even in "mountain" areas (Jiangxi, Fujian & Sichuan provinces) the roads have been sealed, and highways and rail have not been far away. I lost count of the number of tunnels we traveled through on the high speed train to Shangrao at 300kph.

I am aware there is an intent to move industry away from the coastal provinces to better spread economic development.

You may be aware the Qinghai-Tibet railway was built for such a purpose - to connect Tibet to the rest of China and provide enhanced two-way travel.

Part of the BRI programme is the development of high speed rail connecting China to central Asia via Xinjiang, with the intent of providing economic stimulus to that western province.

So yes, in addition to China having a long planning time horizon, they also seem to consider 2nd & 3rd order effects of their investment decisions.

Posted by: Cantab | Dec 28 2021 8:37 utc | 58

New Era in China against the Imperialism begins with Peng Dehuai, commander of Chinese forces in Korea, his defeat of US forces, even impressed Stalin, and inspired anti colonial struggles around the world.

Posted by: Grishka | Dec 28 2021 3:50 utc | 53

Yes, we hear little of that here, but I sometime since have concluded that the N. Koreans are the only place that really stands up next to Castro's Cuba when it comes to determined repelling of Uncle Sugar's Capitalism, although some others now deserve a mention. Bombed the whole pensinula to dust and still they are a world leading economy today, in the South, and one of the few "small" countries on the planet that Uncle Sugar is afraid to attack, in the North. You can see why Japan wants them to stay divided. What Peng accomplished was the first direct repulsion of the US military after WWII, and example many have followed. And thank you for telling us his name.

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 28 2021 9:35 utc | 59

One should spend a minute pitying our mass media. Their job is not simple. They have to produce puff pieces, vilification, nitpicking with "narratives" that are airbrushed from distracting "details", and it is hard to keep a modicum of consistency. Puffing KSA is on the task list. Today in NYT:

As Other Arab States Falter, Saudi Arabia Seeks to Become a Cultural Hub
While conflicts and crises have battered the region’s cultural capitals, Saudi Arabia is hosting film festivals and bankrolling new movies.

I had no stomach to read it, I glimpsed a photo of a cheering movie audience, notable for elegantly dressed women -- no niqab or abaya in sight. So KSA ruins Beirut and entire Lebanon, hitherto a place to publish any kind of matter in Arabic, with no ideological censorship, and creates some 100% artificial "cultural events" with imported artists and imported audience. Peace be upon the Mad Prince! At least some pennies from your gasoline bills go to.a worthy causes like keeping NYT alive.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Dec 28 2021 9:58 utc | 60

I have traveled a little around China, and can confirm your hypothesis regarding the use of infrastructure investment to enhance equity amongst the regions
Posted by: Cantab | Dec 28 2021 8:37 utc | 58

Frankly, my "hypothesis" should be the first thing to consider. What is the primary purpose of infrastructure projects? It should not be some "long lost wisdom of the Ancients". But overdosing on our media (I know little on economic education in the West) can make it so.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Dec 28 2021 10:14 utc | 61

1. In addition to cheap hate mongering for the masses, this cost obsession is the same Republican/capitalist bullshit used to argue for eliminating state service. That is, the failure or inability to to justify state services in a dollar and cents way because no other means to judge are even possible. The state of the nation and world shows how smart and accurate that is -- ditto for the harm done.
2. Given all the economic ties with the PRC, they're much less an enemy and far more a competitor. And we can't compete full stop. So now w have the sads. Sucks to be us.

Posted by: Hart Liss | Dec 28 2021 11:11 utc | 62

Practically every one of those headlines hits one of China 's achievements.
Dozens of confessed cases of sour grapes!
And China's sucess seems endless since Deng Xiao Ping.I see every year new scholars, pundits and University guys going to or returning from the empire of the Middle where they dive into the culture, History, moods and political approaches.
Everywhere, seems even a race towards becoming a better, a more sapient, acute Expert on China.
Now consider this is just the beginning.
The western dominance will be shred to pieces, our knowledge will be a sidenote, our stupid individualism harshly questioned, our wit outwited and Western century old soft power... turned powder.
Usually for the better.

Posted by: augusto | Dec 28 2021 11:40 utc | 63

"When China Does Great Question Its Cost"

Resort to a "standard of measurement" is not a surprise but facilitates many opportunities.

Posted by: NotEuclid | Dec 28 2021 11:57 utc | 64

@57, Pete Jones , yes, but it does not stop at 'media', it includes social media and public in general . It is a very generic mechanism that once something has a bad reputation it is self evident to be critical about it , and to be relatively intolerant about whatever flaws have been established, and thereby to pile onto that bad reputation. Therefore, once Corbyn's bad reputation is established, people find their own reasons for not voting for him. Except for those who are already antagonistic and dismissive towards the newssources who bring us the bad news about Corbyn.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Dec 28 2021 12:10 utc | 65

It does seem the Bankers and Owners are struggling to maintain their ancient Fairytales of Money use all their ‘tools’ - the military, the politicians and the Media all owned!

Usually such resistance by ‘nations’ is met with a giant stick, bombs and boots on the ground and annihilation of these who dared stand up against the slavers.

The secret of the Ancients and their control of Money is out of the bag! Like knowledge of Fire or Nuclear weapons once it is in the open it can never be hidden again.

The panic being expressed by the meme is that all national spending by governments usually ended up in the pockets of the Money Ancients through that system they developed to do just that. Through wars and associated military spending (no questions of ‘at what cost’ allowed), through to saving tge banks (‘too big to fail’ lie) through to QE (‘let’s stop pretending and just fill our boots before the Chinese arrive’).

The peoples of the world can see the centuries of cost they have been ensnared in for the fake delivery of ‘western’ values and consumption - which was just a lure on a hook. There was never any intention to improve the actual socioeconomics of the rest of the world, who would kow tow and surrender their resources, labour, wealth and sons and daughters to the appetites of the Forever Masters if the people realised there is NO COST to their sovereign nations to create their own currency and use it to use the resources to create all the infrastructures and welfare and security for their own peoples and neighbours.

The cat is definitely out of tge bag as people educate themselves about how Money has always worked.

The Money has even instructed the Military to go and ‘educate’ the media, not just mainstream but specialist , to press a propaganda message - ‘Russia is not to be trusted, Putin is ripping off his own people and threatening the whole world And now the Chinese have no understanding of cost!’

I met an Admiral a few years ago touting a message around London specialist publishers - it was shameless bull shit made by dashing military dudes as if that would control the editorial lines of publishers!

(Hilariously as an aside, the Polish Presidents veto agains his own government’s plans to remove foreign ownership of its news network by Disney is a clusterfuck to behold!)

Posted by: D.G. | Dec 28 2021 13:17 utc | 66

"When China Does Great Question Its Cost"

Resort to a "standard of measurement" is not a surprise but facilitates many opportunities.

Posted by: NotEuclid | Dec 28 2021 11:57 utc | 64

Measurement enables judgement. Yes. Thus it's popularity. With your own metric, you can go just about anywhere. In theory, anyway.

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 28 2021 13:46 utc | 67

(Hilariously as an aside, the Polish Presidents veto agains his own government’s plans to remove foreign ownership of its news network by Disney is a clusterfuck to behold!)

Posted by: D.G. | Dec 28 2021 13:17 utc | 66

---

Rupert Murdoch became an American citizen to circumvent foreign ownership of media laws in the USA.

With these close ties to Reagan’s White House and Thatcher’s 10 Downing Street, Murdoch’s media empire continued to grow. To meet a regulatory requirement that U.S. TV stations must be owned by Americans, Murdoch became a naturalized citizen of the United States in 1985. Murdoch also benefited from the Reagan administration’s relaxation of media ownership rules which enabled him to buy more TV stations, which he then molded into the Fox Broadcasting Company, which was founded on Oct. 9, 1986.

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/10/05/rupert-murdoch-propaganda-recruit/

Posted by: too scents | Dec 28 2021 14:38 utc | 68

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and the RADA, have voted to allow foreign military bases into Ukraine, next year will see, the Ukrainian-American Rapid Trident exercises, the Ukrainian-British Cossack Mace, the multinational Light Avalanche, the Ukrainian-Polish Silver Saber, the Ukrainian-American Sea Breeze, the Ukrainian-Romanian Riverine, the multinational Maple Arch exercise and the Viking multinational exercise, all held in Ukraine.

Expect the tension between Russia and Ukraine to be ramped up next year, courtesy of the USA.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/zelensky-opens-way-foreign-troops-permanently-legally-based-ukraine/5765529

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Dec 28 2021 14:53 utc | 69

@69 Republicofscotland

The article title doesn't seem to match the text ... at least according to this report the legislation authorizes the 2022 exercises, not permanent bases.

Posted by: ptb | Dec 28 2021 15:31 utc | 70

Caixing, Oct 26 2019, is mentioned by B. Just a few months later, Caixin became perhaps the world leader in fake news about the C19 epidemic, writing fake news stories about China's handling of the epidemic, such as a story about urns being delivered en masse to Wuhan crematoriums. Another story from Caixin was a story about 21 million missing cellphone subscribers, a story which strongly insinuated that 21 million people in China had died of C19 - that Caixin story went viral worldwide, often unattributed by other outlets but it originated at Caixin. All this and much more originated with articles published by Caixin.

Caixin is based in China and is somehow able to operate in this manner with complete impunity. I don't understand how this is possible, but Caixin seems to be completely above the law that governs everyone else in China.

Posted by: Jake the Snake | Dec 28 2021 16:05 utc | 71

ptb (70).

Yes ptb, you are correct, apologies for the error.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Dec 28 2021 16:14 utc | 72

Please pay attantion to comprehension of your headlines; not like so many MSM.

This one reminds me of an English self help book titled "Eats Shoots and Leaves"
"When China Does Great Question Its Cost" left me baffled as to what was meant until I was well into the piece and at which point pedantic eyes rolled.

Does China have a cost and what do its Pandas munch on?

Posted by: Intp1 | Dec 28 2021 16:26 utc | 73

The airwaves are full of Russia telling foreign agent Memorial set up in 1989, as a supposed anti - Stalin organisation!
Wtf they doing there still, who funds them and what have they been upto that after over 30 years they finally get caught?

I suspect Russia will be following China’s response to the Color organisations, mocking bird media and groomed ‘students’. Time to move out all the NED type funded organisations from their midst.

If it’s going to go hot time to move on the saboteurs in your midst.

Posted by: D.G. | Dec 28 2021 16:43 utc | 74

RE: Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 28 2021 13:46 utc | 67

“Resort to a "standard of measurement"
“Measurement enables judgement. “

Resort to a “standard of measurement” is an interpretation, whilst measurement facilitates interpretation thereby facilitating the conflation interpretation/judgement, predicating we-the-people-hold-these-truths-to-be-self-evidentness, leading silly kittens to lose their mittens and not know where to find them.

Posted by: NotEuclid | Dec 28 2021 16:43 utc | 75

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and the RADA, have voted to allow foreign military bases into Ukraine, next year will see, the Ukrainian-American Rapid Trident exercises, the Ukrainian-British Cossack Mace, the multinational Light Avalanche, the Ukrainian-Polish Silver Saber, the Ukrainian-American Sea Breeze, the Ukrainian-Romanian Riverine, the multinational Maple Arch exercise and the Viking multinational exercise, all held in Ukraine.

I am certain the Russians know of this...

I am also certain none of this will be permitted.... How they stop it... I don't know...

But they will....

INDY

Posted by: George W Oprisko | Dec 28 2021 16:56 utc | 76

Posted by: George W Oprisko | Dec 28 2021 16:56 utc | 76
George, please reference the posts that you quote or refer to. It's just common courtesy.
Others are negligent as well but I've noticed your comments often leave that out.

References to other posts should include the date and time also as the post numbers get messed up
when posts are deleted. The issues are confusing enough without having to chase all over looking for back comments.
Thanks

Posted by: waynorinorway | Dec 28 2021 17:26 utc | 77

Western media manipulates public perception of world events to the benefit of aligned nations and to disfavor of nonaligned, but...

Posted by: jared | Dec 28 2021 17:52 utc | 78

The state suceeded in undermining Trump and electing Biden, but..

NATO has succeeded in establishing a presense in several former soviet republics, but...

Boing has been rescued and /Max is flying again, but...

Covid has been used to roll back public expectation of liberty and expand and test totalitarian powers, but..

Its really quite easy and versatile, I can see where it might be applied in relations with my wife and children.

Posted by: jared | Dec 28 2021 18:05 utc | 79

The pattern and its spread are interesting and telling.
Do you suppose some ever vigilent agency is diseminating templates for article writting or are they supplying copy via independent writers on the payroll.

Posted by: jared | Dec 28 2021 18:21 utc | 80

An example of 'questioning the cost' leapt into mind just now when reflecting on Obama's first town hall after his election. That was held in a township just south of where I live, covered quite well at the time by a hopeful local media. First question he faced was on universal healthcare, which he had been supposedly in favor of weaselwordedly before his election. Oh no, he now averred; to change the system that drastically would be far too difficult. I don't remember that he actually used words such as 'too costly' but certainly questioning the cost was what that answer boiled down to. And see where that attitude has taken us today. Yes, it would have been costly to some: the insurance companies, big pharma, some medical entities, to say the very least -- and I do mean least. And it has been costly for public health, far and away too costly there.

Posted by: juliania | Dec 28 2021 18:51 utc | 81

I want to expand on the title of this posting from b

When China Does Great Question Its Cost

How about if it read

When China Does Great Question Its Cost To Whom

The Whom in China share in both the benefits and the cost, unlike the West

The West has a privatize the profits and socialize the losses structure in contrast

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 28 2021 19:05 utc | 82

When I debated some clowns about green achievements by Chinese including anti-desertification, some even countered that it was at a cost of "destroying the desert". Yeah, to them, desert needs to be preserved for environment reason too.

Posted by: d dan | Dec 28 2021 19:09 utc | 83

I have long ago been exposed to some discussion of retoric techniques and common use of invalid logic. Needing a review. But rather then sifting through excrement, I have learned to simply tune out. Problem is tendency to allow time for things which reinfornce our preconceptions.

Posted by: jared | Dec 28 2021 19:11 utc | 84

The cost problem does NOT apply to the West, because everything they do is "worth it" - even if it means the death of half million children.

Ask secretary "all right" Albright.

Posted by: d dan | Dec 28 2021 19:13 utc | 85

DG @ 74:

Would that Memorial organisation happen to be the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation that was set up by Yaroslav Stetsko and other former members of the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists who collaborated with Nazi Germany and butchered thousands of Polish and Soviet citizens in the 1940s? It was founded with CIA or NED money and there may be Taiwanese involvement. The zealous Christian fundamentalist crusader Adrian Zenz (who campaigns against China over supposed repression of Uyghurs) is either a member of Memorial or associated with it.

Posted by: Jen | Dec 28 2021 19:23 utc | 86

Jared @ 80:

Most MSM news outlets echo one another and all of them get their information directly and indirectly from Reuters or Agence France Press (AFP) so your guess that some propaganda unit (perhaps based in Britain) handing down a template of what to say may be truer than you realise.

Posted by: Jen | Dec 28 2021 19:31 utc | 87

@ 85 d dan... very sad but true, and a perfect example you've given as well.. thanks.. there is no reflection or contemplation in these extremists actions..

Posted by: james | Dec 28 2021 21:10 utc | 88

On the subject of narrative and perception management -
I was struck the other day during a visit to local supermarket where many of the staff and patrons were dutifully and contienciously wearing masks and using hand santatizer and distancing and something less than half of patrons were going about shopping completely oblivious to the pandemic (except a little tense should someone make an issue of it). Point is (made without meaning judgement) that two groups are in same place at same momement and witnessing same events and discussion and having two completely different realities.

Many years ago I was subject to class in philosophy and subject of teleology (I think) and discusion of what is reality and how do we know what we think we would know. I should have paid attention.

Posted by: jared | Dec 28 2021 21:32 utc | 89

(Hilariously as an aside, the Polish Presidents veto agains his own government’s plans to remove foreign ownership of its news network by Disney is a clusterfuck to behold!)

Posted by: D.G. | Dec 28 2021 13:17 utc | 66

I do not know what was funny (I mean, there are many comedic aspects, so I do not know what D.G. had in mind).

As a not-so-funny background, the current government made a point of ingratiating itself with USA. Combat helicopter contract with France was broken, and after a pause, replaced with a contract with USA. After that pause, contracts were penciled for (a) some overpriced airplanes, F- something, (b) some overpriced tanks, Shmuels or Abrams, I am not an expert, (c) nuclear power stations -- not clear if Americans are even capable of making them, but some plans will be inked. It seems that only Russians can build the required plants before 2030, EU has some requirements about CO2, and Poland is quite behind.

Another background, American owner of the most popular news network in Poland is Discovery. Poland has its share of interesting fossils and other curiosity, some in the Parliament etc., so easy to find and film. One can see real synergy.

Joke number one. The motivation of the novelization of the law on ownership of media prohibits majority ownership from the outside of European Economic Zone to prevent ownership by hostile powers. Hostile powers... Perhaps correct, but see the first paragraph of the background. Also, if ordering arms and nuclear reactors from one hostile power is OK, why not compare the prices with other hostile powers?

Joke number two. The vote on the novelization was quite delayed, and in the meantime the council supervising media and in charge of extending broadcast licenses dwelled of a very long time on extending the license for TVN. In the last moment, it voted 4-1 for the extension, with against vote cast by a professor of construction engineering who had the following qualification:
former head of the association of trade publications of construction journals
member of two (!) knightly lay orders. Catholic fanatics dislike post-diluvian news etc.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Dec 28 2021 23:29 utc | 90

I also find amusing how military gains of not so friendly countries are reported. For instance, "troops loyal to Syria's president Al Asaad".

How about saying "troops loyal to British PM Boris" claimed innocent passage through Crimean waters.

Posted by: Jason | Dec 28 2021 23:40 utc | 91

former members of the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists who collaborated with Nazi Germany and butchered thousands of Polish and Soviet citizens in the 1940s? ...

Posted by: Jen | Dec 28 2021 19:23 utc | 86

Timeline and facts are confused here. First, the butchery started in March 1943, when Germans had to focus on East Front, the tail-end on Stalingrad campaign, preparation for an offensive that would turn the tide (it did not, check Panzerkampf), so "In March 1943, approximately 5,000 Ukrainian policemen defected with their weapons and joined the UPA. Well-trained and well-armed, the group contributed to the UPA achieving dominance over other Ukrainian groups active in Volhynia."

The fact that UPA rebelled against the Germans is very celebrated by UPA epigone, as one can see in their YouTube posts. Why they rebelled is not featured in those videos.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Dec 28 2021 23:54 utc | 92

@ 85 - a trip down memory lane.

We think it was worth it!

Posted by: lex talionis | Dec 28 2021 23:59 utc | 93

Love your geopolitical analysis ... but, when it comes to science Angie R will lead you a stray ... emotions and politics guide her discourse.

Posted by: John | Dec 29 2021 1:18 utc | 94

Well I just got a box of china that my father-in-law wasn’t using. 8x4 sets of plates plus serving dishes.

When searching the internet for more information on the model I discovered that the plates go for about $40 each at auctions.

So the MSM might be right for once, china can be a lot costlier than you think.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Dec 29 2021 14:34 utc | 95

While the West spent 5,000,000,000,000,00 on middle east wars China invested the same amount in economic infrastructure, but at what cost.

Posted by: Atm | Dec 29 2021 19:22 utc | 96

Hm...When China Does Great Question Its Cost

Resort to a "standard of measurement" is not a surprise but facilitates many opportunities.

Measurement enables judgement. Yes. Thus it's popularity. With your own metric, you can go just about anywhere. In theory, anyway.

Posted by: تیمورزاده | Jan 4 2022 13:36 utc | 97