With Vaccine Fairness China And Russia Are Beating The ‘West’

Back to Main

November 30, 2021

For a moment I thought that I had caught the Associated Press in reporting a wrong number.

But in fact both headlines are right.

Xinhua - Xi announces supplying Africa with additional 1 bln COVID-19 vaccine doses, pledges to jointly implement nine programs

Chinese President Xi Jinping on Monday announced that China would provide an additional 1 billion doses of COVID-19 vaccines to Africa and pledged to jointly implement nine programs on China-Africa future cooperation.
…
To help the African Union (AU) achieve its goal of vaccinating 60 percent of the African population by 2022, President Xi announced that China would provide another one billion doses of vaccines to Africa, including 600 million doses as donation and 400 million doses to be provided through such means as joint production by Chinese companies and relevant African countries.

"In addition, China will undertake 10 medical and health projects for African countries, and send 1,500 medical personnel and public health experts to Africa," Xi added.

By Nov. 12, 2021, China had provided over 1.7 billion doses of COVID-19 vaccines to more than 110 countries and organizations, including 50 African countries and the AU Commission.

Associated Press - China to donate 600 million COVID-19 vaccine doses to Africa

China has pledged to donate 600 million doses of its COVID-19 vaccines to Africa as the world grapples with the unequal distribution of the shots between rich and poor countries.

Chinese President Xi Jinping made the promise Monday in a video speech to the opening ceremony of a China-Africa forum on economic cooperation.

He said China will supply 1 billion doses in all. The other 400 million are to come through other routes such as production by Chinese companies in Africa.

Both headline can be justified. While Xinhua highlights the top number the AP emphasizes the donation.

China is putting the 'west' to shame with its donations and the additional vaccine doses it distributes. In exchange it will surely receive some good will:

Cavince Adhere, a Kenya-based international relations scholar, said the COVID-19 pandemic has served to highlight the strong partnership between China and Africa in the health sector.

"China now ranks as the top supplier of COVID-19 vaccines to Africa and a strong advocate for intellectual property liberalization to allow African countries to manufacture the commodities and further save their population and economies from the impacts of the global health crisis," Adhere added.

The 'west' is not only donating or otherwise distributing too little but it is also acting in an extremely egoistic way:

bigger

There is a higher percentage of people in rich countries who have received booster shots than have received any vaccination at all in the low-income world.

This while boosters are not necessary except for people in certain risk groups. (The bodies B and T memory cells have been trained during the first and second vaccination and will produce a high number of antibodies should an infection occur.)

That President Biden announced booster for everyone is actually a scandal:

The White House, which claimed to follow the science, did not follow the science but pharma lobbyists. It announced that everyone would get a third shot before the FDA had collected data on third shots, discussed the issue, and made a decision on it.
…
The head of the FDA vaccine office and her deputy resigned in protest over the White House announcement as there is not nearly enough data to justify a third vaccine shot. Scientifically there is simply no compelling reason for a third dose. The White House will now have to walk back its statements on the issue.

China has also supported attempts to suspend the patents on the vaccines so that they can be produced everywhere. The U.S. and some European countries are still dragging their feet over it:

Ahead of World Trade Organization meetings next week, 15 human rights and medical groups are urging President Joe Biden to push for an emergency intellectual property waiver for COVID-19 vaccines.

In a letter to Biden, they called the waiver “a moral imperative” that would help get more doses of the vaccine to low-income countries.

Though Biden has supported a waiver in the past, advocates — including Doctors Without Borders and Amnesty International — say he hasn’t put enough pressure on pharmaceutical companies and others who want to protect this lucrative IP.

Those calling for a waiver say it’s long overdue.

Compelling companies like Pfizer and Moderna to share vaccine formulas, they say, could have expanded manufacturing in low-income countries — including South Africa and India, which asked for a waiver last year.

In a critique of Biden's Summit for Democracy the Chinese and Russian ambassadors to the U.S. point to where it is lacking:

Democracy is not just about domestic governance; it should also be reflected in international relations. A truly democratic government will support democracy in international relations. It will not foster hegemony and division abroad while building democracy and unity at home. The path to prosperity of nations goes through respectful cooperation with each other, despite some differences in views on particular issues.
…
International affairs should be handled in accordance with the principles of extensive consultation, joint contribution, and shared benefits, and decided in the spirit of true multilateralism. There should be a more inclusive global governance, not something like “might makes right.” Seeking supremacy and putting oneself always first are acts of hegemonism and unilateralism, and are obviously anti-democratic.
…
Faced with an array of global challenges, countries urgently need to strengthen coordination and cooperation for common progress. Especially today when the international community needs to improve cooperation between all countries to counter the pandemic of COVID-19, foster economic development, and neutralize cross-border threats.

China and Russia call on countries: to stop using "value-based diplomacy" to provoke division and confrontation; to practice mutual respect and win-win cooperation in international relations, and to work for harmonious coexistence between countries with different social systems, ideologies, histories, cultures, and development levels.

China and Russia seem to live up to this while the 'west' is regrettably missing.

Posted by b on November 30, 2021 at 17:23 UTC | Permalink

Comments

i’m feeling generous.. here’s the link again…
https://ratical.org/PandemicParallaxView/EyeOfTheStorm-ProfMattiasDesmet.html

Posted by: james | Dec 2 2021 4:12 utc | 201

Day 4- Middle of the night woke up drenched. But feeling clear of the body fevers. Mind also feels less muddled. I’m sure it hasn’t finished yet and the immune system will fire off a few more antibody ‘hits’ but it does feel like am over the hump.
After full change of wet clothing, pillows and towelling down am rehydrating with warm water and salty snack – will pile in large amounts of protein tomorrow. A wide variety of Nuts and seeds are jus as good. Chomp chomp.
@ Posted by: S | Dec 1 2021 22:18 utc | 171 – great tabulation and fairly clear for anyone to see that if you HAVEN’T had a previously cleared infection that the spike protein vax’s are certainly stopping death and hospitalisation. Or it would be absolutely clear if that data was included!
As I have said that with my reluctance to date to partake has been based on that single thesis. -are these who were infected from beginning of 2020 and recovered Better/Worse immunised than these who never had the infection but have had a vaxx.
I can see no easy data or study to determine that , it must exist, can you or anyone else find it?
@psychohistorian – good luck towards full recovery , good to see that rational people are prepared to put their money where their mouths are.
Please don’t take this wrongly – I would just advise that if lungs start getting pneumonic it is no longer a matter of anti-virals but IV anti-biotics , don’t hesitate.
Back to get some more sleep. Peace all.

Posted by: D.G. | Dec 2 2021 4:41 utc | 202

@ pepa65 | Dec 2 2021 3:31 utc | 200 with the higher Ivermectin dosage suggestion
I don’t know enough to have a counter argument but have communicated with the provider to clarify that 5 days at 2/day is minimum but keep taking until symptoms are all gone…..their protocol says the dosage should be 0.2 – 0.4 mg/kg but since I started doing prophalaxis doses they have doubled the weekly times to take the drug from 1 to 2.
D.G. | Dec 2 2021 4:41 utc | 203 with the warning about pneumonia….thanks….I feel like I am past that point but will feel more confident after tomorrow. Take care of yourself as well.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 2 2021 4:52 utc | 203

@David F (198) and Grieved (199) Do you put no trust in the statistics of overflowing intensive care units and the soul-crushing stress that is described by so many frontline health care providers? Are they fabricating these stories for some weird personal gain? Can you understand why so many of them have reached the point of absolute fury at the unvaccinated patients who fill their beds, utilize their limited ventilator capacity and bring them (the care givers) to the point of personal and professional burnout. Your denial of plain facts is astounding. Obviously, nothing that anyone can say will shake you from your fixed ideas, but perhaps others will be come to rethink their views on the pandemic.

Posted by: Rob | Dec 2 2021 5:00 utc | 204

good questions rob… what country do you live in?? thanks…

Posted by: james | Dec 2 2021 6:37 utc | 205

I have seen several studies showing the superiority of heterologous prime boost regimen vaccines over homologous ones against variants. It is as if the immune system was able to target proteins common to the two strains and therefore statistically more likely to be also common to new variants. It’s not science, just a guess. We will see how it goes for the omicron variant. If this holds true, the West’s reluctance to endorse Sputnik V will be even more ludicrous than it is now.

Posted by: Marjorie | Dec 2 2021 6:58 utc | 206

uncle tungsten #170
You are welcome.

Posted by: Gulo | Dec 2 2021 9:52 utc | 207

Rob@205
Did I not make it clear in my last post that I am an uncaring monster? Why would those things bother me? /sarc
Odds of dying
I dont actually know if the hospitals are overflowing or not, I have seen headlines that keep screaming that, but as b’s most recent post shows, we all know we cant trust the media.
I also remember a military ship sent to new york to handle all the overflow from the hospitals that was used very sparingly, as in double digit numbers of people treated there. I have also seen headlines of field hospitals erected to handle the overflow that dont end up getting used.
This is the first thing that showed up when I googled ‘odds of dying’. Look at that list. The first nine items have far greater chances of death than the chances of death from covid for my age group according to the info you originally provided.
Which one of these things has led to a national “health crisis”?
If I actually was seeing people around me get seriously ill and/or dieing I would feel differently. But I am not seeing that and therefore I dont.
At the end of the day this virus is not a serious threat to any but the elderly and people with poor health to begin with. We should take reasonable precautions to protect these people as much as possible, wearing a mask, social distancing, limiting exposure, etc. But that is it. If anyone wants to take a vaccine, go for it, but dont insist that everyone else should do so.
By the way, at this point no one is changing their mind on this topic, so it is an exercise in futility/mental masturbation to continue discussing it. I am sorry I entered this conversation, and I am not going to make that mistake again.

Posted by: David F | Dec 2 2021 13:50 utc | 208

@c1ue | Dec 1 2021 19:06 utc | 160
Here are US COVID deaths in 2021 vs. 2020:
IMGUR pic
82% of US adults have received at least 1 jab. A bit of 60% of the US is fully vaccinated according to Johns Hopkins data.
First of all, Worldometers disagrees with your graph. (Scroll down to “Total Coronavirus Deaths in the United States”. Then hover your mouse on the curve to see a figure for a specific date.) According to that site, roughly 400k Americans died from Covid-19 in 2020, and about the same number have died this year. Your graph claims that far more Americans have died from Covid in 2021 than 2020. That appears to be false.
Second, I don’t know where you got your data. You mentioned Johns Hopkins in passing on a slightly different topic (the percentage of vaccinated Americans), but I find it suspicious that your graph is NOT on a Johns Hopkins page, but on a far less credible site.
Now if the COVID vaccine truly does something positive – it is very odd how both relative and absolute COVID death numbers are higher in 2021 than 2020.
Third, even if I took your graph at face value — and I do not — you haven’t accounted for the different variants, which have very different effects. The Delta variant is notorious for being far more transmissible than whatever was dominant last year, for example. Maybe this year’s variants are deadlier than last year’s, and the situation would be worse without vaccines.
So what have you done so far? You used probably fake data to “prove” that vaccinated people are more likely to die from Covid-19 than unvaccinated, while ignoring the effects of different variants.
The official CDC data, posted on CDC’s official site, completely contradicts your position. Here it is again: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 2 2021 18:21 utc | 209

@S | Dec 1 2021 22:18 utc | 171
However, it is my understanding—and please correct me if I’m wrong—that current vaccines do not significantly reduce infection and transmission rates,
According to my current understanding, a vaccine trains your immune system to fight the targeted infection immediately. If you are vaccinated, you would still contract the virus, but your body starts fighting it right away, so your viral load is unlikely to rise much. Therefore you are much less likely to infect others.
therefore, the decision to take or not take a vaccine only affects the health of the person making the decision
No, your decision to be vaccinated or unvaccinated can affect others, maybe fatally. So your responsibility extends beyond yourself. So you should not be entirely free to choose, as you are not entirely free to play with matches in a crowded wooden building, or to drive on the wrong side of the road.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 2 2021 18:48 utc | 210

Okay, one more try, this time with BOTH the Imgur and worldometers links disabled.
@c1ue | Dec 1 2021 19:06 utc | 160
Here are US COVID deaths in 2021 vs. 2020:
IMGUR pic
82% of US adults have received at least 1 jab. A bit of 60% of the US is fully vaccinated according to Johns Hopkins data.
First of all, Worldometers disagrees with your graph. (Click the US page. Scroll down to the graph labelled “Total Coronavirus Deaths in the United States”. Then hover your mouse on the curve to see a figure for a specific date.) According to that site, roughly 400k Americans died from Covid-19 in 2020, and about the same number have died this year. Your graph claims that far more Americans have died from Covid in 2021 than 2020. That appears to be false.
Second, I don’t know where you got your data. You mentioned Johns Hopkins in passing on a slightly different topic (the percentage of vaccinated Americans), but I find it suspicious that your graph is NOT on a Johns Hopkins page, but on a far less credible site.
Now if the COVID vaccine truly does something positive – it is very odd how both relative and absolute COVID death numbers are higher in 2021 than 2020.
Third, even if I took your graph at face value — and I do not — you haven’t accounted for the different variants, which have very different effects. The Delta variant is notorious for being far more transmissible than whatever was dominant last year, for example. Maybe this year’s variants are deadlier than last year’s, and the situation would be worse without vaccines.
So what have you done so far? You used probably fake data to “prove” that vaccinated people are more likely to die from Covid-19 than unvaccinated, while ignoring the effects of different variants.
The official CDC data, posted on CDC’s official site, completely contradicts your position. Here it is again: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 2 2021 19:45 utc | 211

@Cyril | Dec 2 2021 19:45 utc | 212

Third, even if I took your graph at face value — and I do not — you haven’t accounted for the different variants, which have very different effects. The Delta variant is notorious for being far more transmissible than whatever was dominant last year, for example. Maybe this year’s variants are deadlier than last year’s, and the situation would be worse without vaccines.

Does it imply endless boosters to “catch up” with variants every 3-6 months?!?!?!
Viruses are meant to mutate, aren’t they?!

Posted by: LuRenJia | Dec 2 2021 20:31 utc | 212

@ David F.
“ I dont actually know if the hospitals are overflowing or not, I have seen headlines that keep screaming that, “
LIAR.
There have been no headlines of hospitals overflowing. And you know it. ICU units can’t be thrown up in the west as easily as they were in Wuhan and that was only possible because they were able to transfer in trained experienced medics from the rest of the country – it takes 4 years to convert a normal nurse with experience into a intensive care nurse. These poor beggars are the ones under the cosh here in the west and you seem to make light of it!
How dare you diss these overwrought medics?
If you are still shiling the same bs when I am better I will be happy to mark your card and we will dance. Unless b gets there first.
What is overflowing is ICU units and beds within hospitals. They comprise a fraction of a normal hospital inpatient wards.

Posted by: D.G. | Dec 2 2021 20:40 utc | 213

D.G.@215
Calm the fuck down, hombre. Your indignation is overwrought. I am not making light of anything, I said I didn’t know if that was true or not.
You’ve no reason to call me a liar.
If you disagree with me, ok, I dont much care, but quit clutching your pearls like a hysterical little girl.

Posted by: David F | Dec 2 2021 20:56 utc | 214

@Cyril #212
Your inability to research numbers is not my problem.
A simple Google search of: US COVID deaths in 2020 yields the number 377883. CDC link
Total COVID deaths in the US so far, according the CDC is over 800K.
I do hope you can do the simple math to understand that 377883 is less than half of 800K.
As such, the graph I posted is accurate.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 2 2021 21:10 utc | 215

@Cyril #210
20M cases vs. 377883 deaths in 2020 vs.
28M cases and 440K-ish deaths in 2021
Where is the improvement from vaccination, exactly?
You keep relying on theory when reality shows a clearly opposite fact. I posted, in a different thread, a Lancet publication which clearly states both that:
1) vaccinated individuals are getting COVID at equal or greater absolute levels than unvaccinated, and that
2) viral loads for both vaccinated and unvaccinated people who do get COVID are the same.
And since this is a Lancet article – it isn’t some random web site pulling numbers out of thin air.
Data and reality trump theory every time.
Furthermore, the reality of how vaccines affect COVID proliferation is not so simple. The human immune system is not a hair trigger machine – there is certainly some absolute level at which the immune system starts to react as opposed to instant action upon detection. The mechanism of antibody and other immune reactions take time. A primed immune system should respond faster than an unprimed one, but that does not necessarily mean that the immune system can respond fast enough if the pathogen multiplies extremely rapidly, for example.
Thus the assumption – as in make as ass of out u – that vaccines “should” work is highly dependent on many factors.
That’s why reality matters. And reality is clear: vaccines DO NOT significantly reduce the chance of infection or spread of disease after infection.
The graphs I posted also bring into question just how much benefit the vaccines confer regarding death/hospitalization.
S’s posts want to say they convey a 6x reduction in death, but yet again, how do you explain away the fact that there are more deaths in the US in 2021 than 2020 – with a full vaccination level of 60%?
If mostly only the unvaccinated are getting COVID and dying using the 6x ratio from the data/S analysis, then we have a simple equation:
For A = vaxed population and B = unvaxed, C = total population
There have to be 6 times as many unvaccinated that are infected as vaccinated, thus
For 2020 C = B resulting in X deaths
For 2021 C = A+B resulting in 1.2X deaths
We know A=.6B, and if vaccination = 1/6th as likely to die, then for C(2021) = .1B (vaxed pop) + .4B (unvaxed pop) yields 1.2X deaths
~20% more deaths with only .5 relative population implies an infection rate of well over twice 2020 levels.
Yet # cases in 2021 is nowhere near double of 2020.
There were roughly 20M COVID cases at the end of 2020 and we’re around 48M total cumulative cases now = 28M in 2021. Note it is probably likely that the number of actual COVID cases in 2020 is understated vs. 2021 due to (lack of) testing.
No matter how you slice it, the yakety bullshit about vaccine efficacy put out by mainstream sources on vaccination is inconsistent with reality.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 2 2021 21:34 utc | 216

@ D.G. | Dec 2 2021 20:40 utc | 215… dg, that seems unfair a tad unfair and harsh….. i have been reading these types of headlines on the cbc quite frequently… now, maybe they are lying, but i have heard the same thing from some people who are nurses as well, so i very much doubt it… now – i am in canada and i know you are in greece… i don’t know how it is working out in greece, but i can say with some authority that this type of information, aside from being on the cbc – national public media – that it is backed up by my first hand stories… cheers james.

Posted by: james | Dec 2 2021 21:55 utc | 217

@LuRenJia | Dec 2 2021 20:31 utc | 214
Does it imply endless boosters to “catch up” with variants every 3-6 months?!?!?!
Not if we somehow manage to vaccinate the world — and stop the virus in its tracks. No more SARS-CoV-2 means no more variants, and therefore no more need for boosters. This is probably China’s goal. The US’s goal is apparently to slack off, do as little as possible, and blame China.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 2 2021 22:28 utc | 218

@Cyril | Dec 2 2021 22:28 utc | 221

Not if we somehow manage to vaccinate the world…

Apologize for my poor knowledge. I am not aware that there is EVER a vaccine that has been applied to the WHOLE world with nowhere to miss in human history so far. If you missed one, the chance that it may come back will always be greater than ZERO.
Even in the current vaccinated lands, it’s just trying to keep up with the variants with boosters (Note there seems no booster for the latest O one yet.) And the nature seems faster than the boosters so far!!

Posted by: LuRenJia | Dec 2 2021 22:55 utc | 219

@LuRenJia | Dec 2 2021 22:55 utc | 222
Apologize for my poor knowledge. I am not aware that there is EVER a vaccine that has been applied to the WHOLE world with nowhere to miss in human history so far. If you missed one, the chance that it may come back will always be greater than ZERO.
Well, we could add a booster, or two, or as many as necessary, to every vaccine shot. If that doesn’t work, we could try again with a different cocktail of vaccines. The point is that losing this year’s battle does not mean losing the war. We can always try again.
At the moment, most of the world is still unvaccinated, so there is an enormous reservoir in which the virus can mutate. And this means, for now, that the new variants are appearing faster than we can eradicate them. If most of the world gets vaccinated, I think we’ll start to win.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 2 2021 23:42 utc | 220

By the way, as an element of logic to consider:
The virus has no need to mutate to infect an unvaccinated person. The original strain will be quite sufficient.
It’s not correct to say that the vaccinated are directly causing mutations, but it’s very close to the case to say that they are causing them indirectly.
As people here have explained, and as the various sources out there explain, viruses mutate all the time. It’s something of a numbers game being played, mutating to succeed or fail at finding suitable hosts to infect.
As biologists would say, there is a “selective pressure” being exerted upon this numbers game by vaccinated people who are now resistant to the original strain. And these vaccines are “leaky”, as opposed to “sterilizing”, vaccines – i.e. they are not 100% effective at killing the virus and were never conceived or proposed as being so.
So it’s a standard function for viral mutation to “escape” the last version of the vaccine and to become something resistant to that version of the vaccine.
Thus, the “breakthrough” infections from the new variants of the virus. They’re breaking through the last version of the vaccine. There’s nothing to break through with the unvaccinated.
~~
And I’m sorry that I’m not enough of a scientist to use more definite terms; I’m paraphrasing from scientists who do.
~~
The absolutely illogical claim that unvaccinated people are causing or spreading the variants, or causing the virus to mutate – which we sometimes hear – is a failed argument. It’s devoid of fact as shown in studies of the reality, and it’s devoid even of logic at its core. Unvaccinated people are exerting essentially no selective pressure in the mass for new viral mutations to take hold.
It’s just another slander to create a scapegoat for the fearful to blame, as a way to assuage their fear – part of the standard response of mass-formation. This blaming is fed by people with instincts cunning enough to see that blaming the victim is often the most politically powerful thing to do.

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 3 2021 3:02 utc | 221

Vaccines? What vaccines?
They are just the serums for gene therapy! The producers said so, but people still talk about vaccines.

Posted by: Kim Jong Il | Dec 3 2021 5:05 utc | 222

Day5 – just a minor pre dawn sweat out this morning. Minor compared to previous days but still more than any normal cold/flu Deep Tiredness. Not surprised after putting body to work on the pesky new strain. Thought I could jump up and do some basic stuff – made pot of tea and was exhausted. Back to bed. Let’s see how another 24 hours and decent meal or 3 fares. But I certainly do feel better after a week this time than jan/Feb 20.
How are you doing @ Psychohistorian ?
————-
@ Posted by: james | Dec 2 2021 21:55 utc | 219
Being friendly but ill so pardon the abruptness.
I don’t live in Greece.
The idiot above is being a typical off-g type of provocateur.
The statement of hospitals being full is a LIE it has always been. It is as I explained very clearly ICU wards being full.
There are no citations by him (or even you!)
If you don’t understand that difference James than I can only say I regret that you don’t know that. I will try and help you understand better once I am recovered.
In the meantime it’s best to keep out of my sights when I go troll hunting – unless you want to be mistaken as a fellow one. 🙂.
This is one a very few Indy blog sites dealing directly with the desperate Dominate Empires rush to keep its centuries long gains by starting a new Cold War super power era having failed to wipe out the rest of the worlds emerging independents.
I am happy to see frivolity but not at te expense of it being used as fake naivety that is used to progress the propaganda Narratives. Hope that’s not too harsh and unfair. As I say we can have discussion at some point if you want. ok?

Posted by: D.G. | Dec 3 2021 12:28 utc | 223

@Cyril #220
You have failed utterly to demonstrate any credibility or skill in understanding or interpreting the actual data, as opposed to reading mainstream media bullshit.
Nor am I the least bit impressed with your use of the Worldmeter name – that site DOES NOT LIST 2021 vs. 2020 data in isolation. Your pathetic attempts to mentally splice said Worldmeter data only underscores how incompetent you are – once again, highlighting your inability to deal with numbers.
The number of COVID deaths in 2021 is over 820K – based on the preliminary incoming data (which is still being vetted).
The difference in deaths in the US in 2021 vs. 2020 is ~20% (higher). Nor are we done in 2021 yet, so the final tally will be even higher than that. But even using the 806K number from worldmeter, the increase in 2021 vs. 2020 is 13.4% HIGHER.
Explain how vaccines are dramatically reducing deaths from COVID when overall deaths are 13.4% HIGHER in 2021 than 2020.
You are stupid and clearly wedded to a completely wrong notion of reality.
If this is the best you can summon in terms of persuasive argument, you have failed 100%.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 3 2021 14:01 utc | 224

@Cyril #223
More idiocy. Germany, UK and other nations in Europe are reporting that people who are vaccinated who catch COVID are equal to or greater than people who are not vaccinated. Given that all of these nations have more vaccinated than not, the majority of COVID cases in these nations today are in vaccinated people.
You continue to confuse relative numbers with absolute, and bullshit with reality.
If you are vaccinated, you still have a reaction to COVID because you are still infected. The only theoretical difference is that the immune response time is shorter and stronger.
In an absolute numbers sense – the statistical difference is negligible. 2x or 10x or even 100x the number of cells infected by COVID is largely irrelevant when we’re talking hundreds of millions to billions of cells infected regardless of immune response.
I continue to be amazed by the numerological ignorance you display.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 3 2021 14:06 utc | 225

“the FDA and its advisors are reportedly working on an expedited approval process that will allow “tweaked” versions of extant vaccines and remedies to be sheperded through in a matter of weeks.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-aims-for-quick-review-of-omicron-vaccines-and-drugs-11638532801?mod=breakingnews
Boiling frogs

Posted by: librul | Dec 3 2021 14:17 utc | 226

@Posted by: librul | Dec 3 2021 14:17 utc | 229
The WSJ article is archived at:
https://archive.md/3LRCU

Posted by: librul | Dec 3 2021 14:27 utc | 227

@ D.G. | Dec 3 2021 12:28 utc | 226 who asked how I am doing with my Covid experience….and I hope you recover soon
I am up and have done the initial clearing of my lungs. I am improving but will continue taking twice daily Ivermectin until fully clear of symptoms even if this is the day 5 when I am supposed to be done. I communicated with provider and that is their recommendation.
My skimming of the Intertubes has been spotty over the past few days but I could swear I saw something saying that the 30 mutations of the new variant is a smoking gun that this shit show is man made…….any others out there see that and can bring it forward please and thank you

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 3 2021 14:57 utc | 228

It is a Red Queen situation. Rapid evolution of its infection apparatus is the evolutionary strategy of this virus and many other infectious agents; and the animals infected, like us, living in these infectious environments, have evolved rapid detection and defense mechanisms to protect them. That game has been going on for quite a long time.
That is the point. The virus is not a stationary target, and it never was, so all weapons aimed at it must be assumed to be wasting assets, at best, unless they can stomp it out fairly quickly, so it has no time to evolve.
This virus has lots of hosts, and is very infectious already. We are not going to be able to stomp it out. It seems likely to me now that stomping it out was also never really on the table, although I still would have tried, as the Chinese did.
+++++++++
@psychohistorian:
What I remember is it came at me four times, over about ten days, and then I knew I had it, and it took another 3-4 weeks to expel things and recover. Good luck, it sounds like you are doing OK.

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 3 2021 15:09 utc | 229

@c1ue | Dec 3 2021 14:01 utc | 225
You have failed utterly to demonstrate any credibility or skill in understanding or interpreting the actual data, as opposed to reading mainstream media bullshit.
Well, I can do enough arithmetic to avoid being a sucker for fake graphs. You cannot. Thus you can only fire insults at me.
Nor am I the least bit impressed with your use of the Worldmeter name – that site DOES NOT LIST 2021 vs. 2020 data in isolation.
So you’re unable to extract the necessary data from Worldometers — even after I gave you detailed instructions on how to do so. Why am I so unsurprised?
By the way, I was familiar with Worldometers so I used it. Johns Hopkins has a page that agrees with Worldometers**: roughly the same number of Americans died from Covid-19 in 2020 and 2021. This flatly contradicts your graph, which attempted to show that far more people in the US died this year than last year. As the graph was key to your argument, I consider your case completely blown. As I said, your credibility is in tatters.

** Go to the graph entitled “Cumulative Cases By Days Since 50th Confirmed Case”. By default, this graph shows the number of cases. Click on the drop-down box and choose “Deaths”. You probably don’t understand logarithmic scales, so choose the linear scale. Now you will see the total number of US deaths from Covid-19 as the days go by. Hover your mouse over day 350 or so; you will see that roughly 400k Americans died from Covid-19 in 2020. If you do the same for day 600 or so, you will see about the same number of deaths in 2021.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 3 2021 16:33 utc | 230

@ some
A reservoir of vulnerable people, unprotected or unhealthy, without public health measures to contain the viral spread is what negligent governments have given us — they protected and continue to protect finance capital over human lives and community well being.
Without vaccines the global death toll would have been much higher. Some estimate it being over 5 million, others at more like ~ 15 million as of October 2021.
Some people who are anti adenovirus vector and mRNA vaccines seem to prefer to have let the virus rip everywhere. More careful thinkers maintain the need for preventives and protective public health policies — which ain’t going to happen on the finance capital ship without some serious self reflection and change.
The former appear to be libertarian minded, advocating for individual profit taking without community, government, interference. The latter seem to be genuinely concerned about community and individual well being.
A primary function of mainstream garbage is to confuse and divide the people. This is another case of that, accusing the people of being the problem, whether vaxed or not, when the source of the problem is a failed, corrupt, inept, cruel yet ‘civil’ leadership captive to narrow interests which have gained illegitimate power over others through capital accumulation, much of it fictitious.

Posted by: suzan | Dec 3 2021 17:11 utc | 231

@Bemildred | Dec 3 2021 15:09 utc | 230
That is the point. The virus is not a stationary target, and it never was, so all weapons aimed at it must be assumed to be wasting assets, at best, unless they can stomp it out fairly quickly, so it has no time to evolve …. This virus has lots of hosts, and is very infectious already. We are not going to be able to stomp it out.
I am optimistic. The pandemic will be ended, I think, when enough of the global population is immune. The fight will actually get easier when most of the world is vaccinated and then boostered: as the viral reservoir shrinks, new variants are less likely to appear, which means the boosters will be more effective, which will shrink the reservoir even more, and so on. The battle may take years, but I think victory is still possible.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 3 2021 19:21 utc | 232

“The pandemic will be ended, I think, when enough of the global population is immune.”
Posted by: Cyril | Dec 3 2021 19:21 utc | 233
This is circular argument. A tautology. “I am optimistic. We will fly when we have grown wings.”

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 3 2021 19:50 utc | 233

@Bemildred | Dec 3 2021 19:50 utc | 234
This is circular argument. A tautology. “I am optimistic. We will fly when we have grown wings.”
Perhaps I should have said, “The pandemic will start to end when enough of the global population becomes immune”. Would that seem not as tautological to you? The more people who are vaccinated, the fewer variants there will be, and the faster we will win.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 3 2021 20:08 utc | 234

Of the 1.1 billion doses the U.S. has promised, nearly 172 million have been shipped. That’s almost 4x what China has shipped, and even taking into account these new numbers, 2x what China has pledged.
Posted by: Matt | Nov 30 2021 22:47 utc | 53
What a laugh. Your promised doses can get stuffed. Here are the top 10 deliveries from China.
Top 10 Countries (Deliveries): Indonesia (225M), Iran (114M), Brazil (95M), Pakistan (85M), Philippines (58M), Morocco (45M), Myanmar (42M), Bangladesh (41M), Vietnam (37M), Cambodia (36M).
https://bridgebeijing.com/our-publications/our-publications-1/china-covid-19-vaccines-tracker/#China8217s_Vaccines_Around_the_World

Posted by: Jake “the snake” Rob | Dec 3 2021 20:32 utc | 235

White House chief medical adviser Dr Anthony Fauci said Friday he could not give a definitive answer on when the Covid pandemic would slow to a degree that would allow American life to return to normal.
Asked by Fox Business Network host Neil Cavuto if the American public could look forward to updated booster shots each year for new variants in the same way Americans get a different influenza vaccine each year, Dr Fauci replied: “I don’t have a definitive answer because we cannot know”.
‘Elimination is tough’: Fauci focused on getting ‘control’ of Covid spread

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 3 2021 20:57 utc | 236

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 3 2021 20:08 utc | 235
When enough people become immune is precisely when the pandemic can be expected to end, or at least stop being a pandemic.
The question is whether that will ever happen, and if so how we might bring that about. There is no evidence we have had any success up to now. The vaccines did make a dent, but in the process they are adapting to the vaccines, as should be expected.
The Chinese are the only ones who have really stopped it, and since they cannot quarantine from the world, they will have to keep doing that for the forseeable future, or give up like we have.
These kinds of viruses are mutable, and not good targets for vaccines. Hence the “leakiness”. You can have yearly updates or look elsewhere for your remedy.
It is now likely to become an endemic disease, like flu. Another one.

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 3 2021 21:06 utc | 237

From the limited data available it looks like the acquired immunity from having had a natural infection is now compromised, minimized, by the Omicron variant based on limited data from SA where most people had immunity from natural infection from earlier VOC and where only less than 25% of the population, mostly in wealthy enclaves, had been vaccinated. Re-infection of those with such natural immunity, the vast majority of the population in SA, is being reported as by a factor of over 2. IOW those with previous natural immunity are now more vulnerable to reinfection. Nothing yet afaik on omicron immunity against vaccines — only because data is not available.
Many hope that omicron will be a rapidly spreading variant which packs minimal disease/suffering results, overcoming eArliwr more harmful variants.
May we be so fortunate as that would effectively end the pandemic.
The origin of the problem will remains, however, who represents the peoples’ interests?

Posted by: suzan | Dec 4 2021 0:00 utc | 238

DG – I didnt realize you had created a classification system for al the typse of trolls. I am a type g type troll evidently. Good to know, maybe, probably not, since I am not privy to your classification system.
Glad to know that you possess the capital “T” truth.
I bow down to your magnificence.
Please smite this most unholy troll so as to put it out of its misery.
But seriously, get over yourself douschebag.

Posted by: David F | Dec 4 2021 0:32 utc | 239

In all the history and science of vaccinology, it is vaccination that drives mutations.
It’s the same scientific model as pesticides and anti-bacterial agents encouraging super strains that are resistant to the original combatant. Really, the science is not new, and we have all been very familiar with these other examples, at the most casual level of understanding, for decades.
This is especially true of leaky vaccines, especially true of vaccines deployed in the course of a pandemic, rather than before or after one, and especially true of the narrowly focused mRNA vaccines.
This seems less critical with the non-western vaccines created from traditional models, that target the entire virus rather than one narrow strain of it. Thus, vaccines such as Sputnik and Sinopharm and the Cuban one, for example, seem to handle the variants from the original immunity conferred, so far.
That any of this would be in doubt is a product of the propaganda of vested interests – and I certainly don’t know how to combat this. All one can do is offer the truth to the record, and trust that those who wish to know may find it and pursue its validation. Oh well. Information is survival, ignorance is demise.
~~
The beauty of the mRNA vaccine as a business model is that the instructions to fight the latest variant can be quite rapidly incorporated into production. The business model then becomes one of chasing the latest variant (which the previous vaccinations have helped to bring into existence)…ad infinitum.
I hate to sound cruel, but as we say of many other business models, those who don’t understand the model are customers of it.

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 4 2021 0:35 utc | 240

@229 psychohistorian
Glad you’re on the mend.
All I’ve heard about the multiple mutations within the Omicron variant is a comment by Bret and Heather last weekend on the latest Dark Horse. At the time there was not enough data – it was only a few days since being discovered – but they did say that something already looked a little odd, in that there were so many mutations, which suggested a rich evolutionary path, and yet the spike itself seemed unchanged from the original spike, primitive in comparison with the other sophistications.
This raises a flag of course. Data is coming, I’m sure.
John Campbell today is saying this variant appears to be breaking through even naturally acquired immunity, but this is disputed in a seemingly intelligent way, early in the YouTube comments – so I await better information. I imagine Dark Horse tomorrow evening will touch on it.

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 4 2021 0:43 utc | 241

@ D.G. | Dec 3 2021 12:28 utc | 224
hi dg… i understand the difference between icu’s full and hospitals full… as it happens in canada, the hospitals typically run at close to full capacity already, so the addition of the icu’s being full is not good, and of course day surgeries, and other important work is postponed as well.. we are being told the people who are filling the icu’s are people who haven’t been vaccinated.. cbc gives some of this data in a broken down manner – those who have been vaccinated, verses those who haven’t, and it is fairly clear if – and this is the big if – you believe in the national public broadcasters info… of course most people will believe what the public broadcaster is saying as well… i think david f maybe didn’t articulate all this perfectly, but i think it is healthier to treat others as equals as opposed to considering others stupid, liars and other such unhelpful labels..
why did i think you lived in greece?? where do you live? thanks..
David F | Dec 4 2021 0:32 utc | 239.. i think the g troll thing is a label associated with “off guardian”, but i could be wrong.. cheers..

Posted by: james | Dec 4 2021 0:56 utc | 242

“This seems less critical with the non-western vaccines created from traditional models, that target the entire virus rather than one narrow strain of it. Thus, vaccines such as Sputnik …”
Grieved, the Sputnik 5 vaccine is an adenovirus vector vaccine, not a traditional inactivated virus vaccine like Sinovac. At least get your talking points in order as you spray disillusion over the landscape of covid, claiming to hold forth Truth.
I do not disagree that the Pharma business model is exploitative, causing suffering. Presenting the facts correctly would usurp the corruption and not feed further infighting as your good bad scenario seems to do.

Posted by: suzan | Dec 4 2021 3:22 utc | 243

@243 suzan – “good bad scenario”
Out of all that I said there, this is all you have to pick on?
Did you really think the focus of what I said should be the difference between Sputnik and Sinovac?
Are there not countless other ways you could add to our understanding besides picking on something that doesn’t really change the main points I was making?
Could you not actually have spoken to the main points?

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 4 2021 3:42 utc | 244

Darling grieved, if you do not get the fundamental facts correct, what facts you present are one to believe in?

Posted by: suzan | Dec 4 2021 3:54 utc | 245

i see a lot of this type nitpicking and fighting over details and etc. etc.. so many people are so attached to their position, they can’t see the forest for the trees.. it is really quite sad to witness as a bystander…

Posted by: james | Dec 4 2021 5:47 utc | 246

Posted by: james | Dec 4 2021 5:47 utc | 246
Here here, always polite, perhaps superficially polite, neither here nor there, never committing to a position,, never ruffling feathers, always without hide in the game, but expressing concern. Well, that may be the best play fypov. All the best.

Posted by: suzan | Dec 4 2021 6:10 utc | 247

@Bemildred | Dec 3 2021 21:06 utc | 237
When enough people become immune is precisely when the pandemic can be expected to end, or at least stop being a pandemic.
I see. Thank you for clarifying your meaning.
The question is whether that will ever happen, and if so how we might bring that about …. The Chinese are the only ones who have really stopped it…
That is mostly a political question. China’s an existence proof that the pandemic can be stopped. Therefore, the bungling by the rest of the world is a choice and not a law of nature. As the world can make a different choice, I am optimistic: we can win.
And it may not even be necessary to follow China’s difficult path. There may be more than one way to crush the virus. I remain an optimist.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 4 2021 6:30 utc | 248

@Grieved | Dec 4 2021 0:35 utc | 240
In all the history and science of vaccinology, it is vaccination that drives mutations …. It’s the same scientific model as pesticides and anti-bacterial agents encouraging super strains that are resistant to the original combatant.
The super strains emerged because until quite recently we were using antibiotics one at a time. Any single antibiotic is unlikely to kill all the invaders; the survivors by definition are resistant to that antibiotic. If the surviving population was allowed to grow until we noticed it, we would hit it with a different antibiotic, and this would also leave too many survivors. Lather, rinse, repeat. Eventually, a super strain with broad resistance would evolve.
The solution is to use several antibiotics simultaneously. There would be no survivors, and therefore no evolution of a super strain.
The situation with vaccines and boosters is very much like administering several antibiotics at the same time. Our immune systems are amazingly capable. They can walk and chew gum at the same time: they can hit an invading virus simultaneously in all the ways they have learned. If most of the world is vaccinated (and boostered as necessary), a super viral strain is unlikely to evolve.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 4 2021 7:24 utc | 249

I see. Thank you for clarifying your meaning.
—
Posted by: Cyril | Dec 4 2021 6:30 utc | 248
No, I was clarifying what “immune” means, it means you don’t get sick any more, and you don’t spread the disease. That is why saying the pandemic will end when everybody is immune simply repeats the definition, i.e. it is drivel.
Best of luck to you otherwise.

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 4 2021 8:16 utc | 250

I think this is where we are going now, with the COVID19 virus:
New coronavirus strain may be first sign of pandemic’s end — expert
It will be interesting to see how the powers that be take the idea of the disease becoming like a cold, or “normal” flu. Do they double down or lighten up? (I think they will double down.)
I suppose you can argue (if you accept the idea) that vaccination has brought this about by encouraging viral evolution.
Now if I can just hang on another year or so, I might get through the pandemic without ever having to be vaccinated.

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 4 2021 9:07 utc | 251

Day 6.
Well I thought it was licked. Only a minor sweat out last night. Feeling better in mind and chest but … there are new chills in arms and legs – looks like it’s in the skin organ. More bits and food and force myself not to do anything for few more days.
My only intervention has been occasional paracetamol which allows body to get to sleep.
Reports from health agencies are confirming that over half of the new hospitalisations are in double vaxxed , a few cases boostered too.
This bastard bad dog ain’t laying down and rolling over playing dead yet!
I’m calling it – Xmas is going to be cancelled. Take care everyone and be careful – I’m going back to sleep until chills subside.

Posted by: D.G. | Dec 4 2021 9:20 utc | 252

Nothing in the vaccine world is as good against COVID as naturally occurring immunity. For those ove 60 COVID is dangerous, under 60 not very. Children, not very.. Best fighter against it so far is ivermectin. Hey, it’s horse medicine..don’t take a horse dose, you loons out there. Get it at the feed store. Some folks in Africa take it daily as malaria prophy.
Robert Kennedy book largely factual. Dude has a tendency to say it is miraculous when a drug performs well. Geez! Still, very much worth reading.
JPS

Posted by: Jp straley | Dec 4 2021 13:36 utc | 253

@ D.G. | Dec 4 2021 9:20 utc | 252 going through their 2nd Covid experience
Take care of yourself. I am coming around. Still up multiple times in the night to clear lungs in inversion table but getting better
No more chills to speak of
Still real weak and it will take some tie to fully recover

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 4 2021 16:33 utc | 254

@ Grieved | Dec 4 2021 0:35 utc
Viral evolution has two basic parts, random mutations which occur during the viral replication process and natural selection. I suppose it is the latter that you mean when you say vaccines “drives mutations.” This is a very simplistic reductive view, therefore misleading.
Grieved: “It’s the same scientific model as pesticides and anti-bacterial agents encouraging super strains that are resistant to the original combatant. Really, the science is not new, and we have all been very familiar with these other examples, at the most casual level of understanding, for decades.”
No, not true. See Why the evolution of vaccine resistance is less of a concern than the evolution of drug resistance
See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6304978/
G: “This is especially true of leaky vaccines, especially true of vaccines deployed in the course of a pandemic, rather than before or after one, and especially true of the narrowly focused mRNA vaccines.”
Public distrust has undermined COVID-19 vaccine acceptance and has become a major public health issue in the battle against SARS-CoV-2 transmission globally. Here we present the first evidence that the vaccination coverage rate is inversely correlated to the mutation frequency of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant in 16 countries (R2=0.878), strongly indicating that full vaccination against COVID-19 is critical to suppress emergent mutations.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.08.21261768v2
G: “This seems less critical with the non-western vaccines created from traditional models, that target the entire virus rather than one narrow strain of it.”
Inactivated whole virus vaccines indeed give more comprehensive protection as the immune system is primed to respond to more antigens, making it less likely that a random mutation selected for would evade detection by the body.
But there are other contributory factors to consider — such as the size of the pool of hosts of viral replication and spread.
In a population split between the vaccinated and the not vaccinated —where I am it is about 50/50 — without public health measures like masking, distancing, ventilation, etc, the unvaccinated (who here are also vehemently anti maskers) will reproduce and spread what breaks through from some of the vaccinated, usually the old, the unhealthy, the immune compromised, the vit d deficient, the stressed, etc. This is a perfect Petri dish for creating vaccine resistance.
You can blame the vaxxed, the novel vaccines, the drug maker kingpins, the stupid media, the leaky ship capitalism and on and on but that does not solve the problem.
Although these mRNA vaccines have saved many lives and prevented many infections, my guess is that they were promoted into existence using public funds for reasons other than public health and private profit making.

Posted by: suzan | Dec 4 2021 17:03 utc | 255

And they can exchange genes when two coinhabit the same host:
Research reveals links between Omicron variant and common-cold virus
The Omicron variant of the virus that causes COVID-19 likely acquired at least one of its mutations by picking up a snippet of genetic material from another virus – possibly one that causes the common cold – present in the same infected cells, according to researchers.
This genetic sequence does not appear in any earlier versions of the coronavirus, called SARS-CoV-2, but is ubiquitous in many other viruses including those that cause the common cold, and also in the human genome, researchers said.

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 4 2021 17:11 utc | 256

And one more on the nature of the new “variant”:
Tshwane District Omicron Variant Patient Profile – Early Features
In summary, the first impression on examination of the 166 patients admitted since the Omicron variant made an appearance, together with the snapshot of the clinical profile of 42 patients currently in the COVID wards at the SBAH/TDH complex, is that the majority of hospital admissions are for diagnoses unrelated to COVID-19. The SARS-CoV-2 positivity is an incidental finding in these patients and is largely driven by hospital policy requiring testing of all patients requiring admission to the hospital.
Using the proportion of patients on room air as a marker for incidental COVID admission as opposed to severe COVID (pneumonia), 76% of patients at the SBAH/TDH complex are incidental COVID admissions. This very unusual picture is also occurring at other hospitals in Gauteng. On 3 December Helen Joseph Hospital had 37 patients in the COVID wards of whom 31 were on room air (83%); and the Dr George Mukhari Academic Hospital had 80 patients of which 14 were on supplemental oxygen and 1 on a ventilator (81% on room air).
The exponential increase in the positivity rate in these patients is a reflection of the rapidly increased case rate for Tshwane but does not appear to be associated with a concomitant increase in the rate of admissions for severe COVID (pneumonia) based on the high proportion of patients not requiring supplemental oxygen.

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 4 2021 17:20 utc | 257

@ suzan | Dec 4 2021 6:10 utc | 248… thanks suzan, but clearly you have missed the posts where i do specify my position.. it is an ongoing one, open to change as well… you’ve haven’t kept up with all my posts on this topic, but i understand how that would be hard to do…

Posted by: james | Dec 4 2021 18:12 utc | 258

@Bemildred | Dec 4 2021 8:16 utc | 251
No, I was clarifying what “immune” means, it means you don’t get sick any more, and you don’t spread the disease.
No, you clarified what YOU mean by “immune”: total invulnerability to the virus. Partial immunity, the usual definition, is what I meant: it is possible to defeat the virus when nobody is invulnerable to it.
That is why saying the pandemic will end when everybody is immune simply repeats the definition, i.e. it is drivel.
So this is what I deserve for my politeness to you — an insult.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 4 2021 18:44 utc | 259

Well, thye, the obscenously rich elites, much more enriched through the whole pandemic, in an ammount euqally to that lost by the working and middle class, are letting us know a bit of information each time, as they see the masses swallow…
Now, the official bulletin of the rich people, in its health section, confrims that yeah, the “vaccines” change your DNA…but, do not worry, “only a little bit”…and “that is good”…
For what is wirth, and for the time i have lived so far in this planet, I have never found any ocassion when something was good for both,. the Forbes troup and me and my peers…
https://twitter.com/kaitedo2523/status/1467124651541344259
They laugh at you and can not even believe you cintinue swallowing…They can not even keep anynore tge laughter from expldiong in plain view, after WEF´s Young Global Leader Jacinda Arden fought to avoid laughter seme weeks ago, gesticulating in a demential way to achieve it, to warn and scare you “that you just take the jab, comply, and recover your life”, now it is the bagface ameba governing Canada on behalf of the WEF, who, hardly keeping laughter from exploding in public view, makes you know that you can already make an appointment to vaccinate your children starting from 5 years old up….
https://twitter.com/EstulinDaniel/status/1466977393021706245
And you will go and vaccinate your toddlers…
They are already warning at unison in their whole media apparatus, The Ministry of Tructh, that from now to 2030, the number of strokes will grow exponentially…that, eventhough the new anticoagulants have reduce strokes to the minimum and thus making life expectancy of the elders quite longer…Now they need to counter that undesirable effect, they did not calculate while trying to avoid spending in unable people after strokes.
Do not thin for a time that the same corporations who produced the anticoagulants ,ade it for to give you years of life…
Now, after vaccinating pregnant women who were never in,cuded in any clinical trial except for the ongoing one through mass vaccination, and to cover for the cardiologic side effects already recognized by any serious medical review or association, they say that intrauterine strokes could be provoked by the climate change..It is heat now which produces unborn strokes…
https://twitter.com/Schwert_87/status/1466752173530927105
They are preparing you for the epidemics of strokes and cardiovascular evenst produced by these vaccines.
They will invent whatever cause so that you do not sue them in case yo usuffer any of these serious events, the unvaccinated, the climate change, the Russians, both the latter at their time wil be blamed guilty for climate chnage as well..with time….

Posted by: Black bread | Dec 4 2021 21:23 utc | 260

A Siberian man CEO of a network of ophtalmology clinics Omicron Network, has sued the Russian branch of the WHO for using that already registered trademark to name the last “variant of concern”, arguing that is ruinig his business…
Pass the popcorn…
https://www.rt.com/russia/542150-businessman-sue-who-omicron/

Posted by: Black bread | Dec 4 2021 22:23 utc | 261

No, you clarified what YOU mean by “immune”: total invulnerability to the virus. Partial immunity, the usual definition, is what I meant: it is possible to defeat the virus when nobody is invulnerable to it.
Posted by: Cyril | Dec 4 2021 18:44 utc | 260
Ah, “immune” mean “partial immunity”. I see.

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 4 2021 22:35 utc | 262

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 4 2021 16:33 utc | 255
Still real weak and it will take some tie to fully recover
_________________________________________________
You may not be out of the woods yet. According to Dr. Shankara Chetty, doctor from South Africa, who has very successfully treated thousands of covid patients, day eight after symptoms first begin is the critical point in the progression of covid. Dr Chetty has a theory that serious illness and death from covid is the result of a allergic reaction that begins on day eight. The sign that the patient is entering allergic reaction phase of the disease is the drop in blood oxygen levels which consistently happens about the eighth day. Patients often are unaware that their blood oxygen levels are falling unless they try to exert themselves and find they become breathless very quickly. This phase of the the disease can be treated very effectively with corticosteroids and anti-histamines providing the patient can find a doctor who does not have his head up his ass who will prescribe these medications.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T7KlrzPAYY

Posted by: jinn | Dec 4 2021 23:15 utc | 263

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 4 2021 22:35 utc | 263
Ah, “immune” mean “partial immunity”. I see.
____________________________________________________
In a world where half-ass attempt is just as good as a real attempt, that interpretation of immunity makes perfect sense.

Posted by: jinn | Dec 4 2021 23:19 utc | 264

@ @ suzan | Dec 4 2021 6:10 utc | 248….. further to my post @ 259.. you could always ask me directly… i am more forthright then you appear to realize!
but since none of that has happened, i will give a quick overview on my position with regard to covid in relation to as many angles as i can think of, off the top of my head..
mrna vaccines.. they are experimental.. i am fine with experimental up to a point.. i think information coming out since these mrna vaccines have been used on a large number of people is that their are problems in the area of 1 % approx, of people taking them.. this seems very high, compared to previous vaccines which were more in the area of .01 %…. regardless of not knowing this information early on, i did get the mrna vaccine and haven’t had any problems with it ( so far )… i do know of some people who have had problems with this vaccine, including one of the regular posters here who doesn’t seem to be posting anymore – swissarmyman.. i would like to see full disclosure on the results of this experimental vaccine… maybe it is available on a country to country basis, but i don’t know if it has…
regarding the idea of passports, i personally think this is coercion and i don’t agree with it… if some people don’t want to get the vaccine, that in my mind, ought to be up to the individual and not decided by the gov’t… using coercion tactics is not something i respect either. and of course this is how i see the idea of covid passports – a very literal type of coercion, or a person is excluded from this, that or the other activity, including being excluded from continuing with their work… if they work in a hospital or with older people, i could see this as a concern and where it might make sense, but i am seeing it for professional musicians in the country where i live – canada, and i don’t agree with it…
as to the value of these mrna vaccines – it is hard to say.. they seem to be working and helping for the most part, but mine is a subjective viewpoint and i don’t know with certainty.. i would respect our culture more if different options for different covid vaccines were made available, but the issue of sales and who gets to sell what to who, seems like a big factor here.. which leads me to my next observations…
why is it the contract to canada for these pfizer vaccines is not made publicly available for the citizens of canada to see firsthand? there is something that appears underhanded in this… also – while i realize gov’ts work with corporations and they can do good work, i sense a real money grab in all of this.. let me give an example…
demanding that very young people get the vaccine seems really beyond the pale.. unfortunately for me, it looks like a money grab by these same pharma corps with approval from our gov’t of canada.. i don’t abide by this and think it is wrong…
giving these vaccines to women who are pregnant, or demanding that they have to get the vaccine, seems very draconian or worse to me… in fact, if i was a women, i would be very hesitant to take an experimental vaccine here..
what else?? like i said, i think we are going to find out more as we move forward and not everything is super clear at present… alternatives seem to have been squashed and pushed off the radar thru suppression of the media.. i am not okay with this and think there is something radically wrong in my understanding of the merits of ivermectin and how because the pharma corps can’t make a huge profit, it is kept out of the market… yes, it would have to be approved by the fda which is a process that takes some time, and apparently costs a lot of money to reposition as a drug for covid, but if we were working for the health of the people, as opposed to the wealth of the corporations, i think it would have been done by now… also, the parallels between the fda and the faa, as we witnessed the past 2 years over the boeing max 737 are very troublesome… can the faa be bought out as well?? it appears the case…
what else am i forgetting to touch on?? it is easy to look back and say – we should have stopped international flights much earlier then we did.. it is easy to play hindsight football so to speak.. i am not into that, but neither am i into a huge amount of speculation…. talk of this being the great reset is a bit of a turnoff for me… there are always people and businesses that want to take advantage of any crisis that comes along… wasn’t it naomi klein who referred to it as disaster capitalism?? so, yes – some are profiting off this covid dynamic, but personally i don’t think it was a set up.. i do believe it has been taken advantage of, but i am not so conspirational as to believe it was completely planned – the plandemic… maybe i will be proven wrong, but at this point, i don’t believe that.. i do believe many have taken advantage of this however and that is not the same as the other..
bottom line is on balance i think the mrna vaccines have helped, but at a huge cost… another part of me wonders how this differs from the regular flu.. it seems more problematic with people with underlying health issues – comorbidities as they call them… i am not exactly sure how much they have helped, and i think the price we have paid is unduly high with the lockdowns and etc. etc… the passports which are ongoing is very disturbing to me personally.. there you mostly have my position on covid, vaccines, passports, reset and etc. etc.. cheers..

Posted by: james | Dec 4 2021 23:46 utc | 265

@ jinn | Dec 4 2021 23:15 utc | 264 with the cautionary Covid message to me and others
Thanks for that. I am staying on treatment quantities of Ivermectin until the symptoms totally pass and am fairly religious about using my inversion table with percussive cupping whacks on chest to keep my lungs clear.
I plead guilty to have yet to purchase a blood oxygen measuring device, nor do I have a blood pressure tester…sigh I was told my heart should be the last thing to go on me and don’t have an excuse for the other….but too late now to trend data and I don’t want to go out more yet.
I will watch the video;)

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 4 2021 23:48 utc | 266

can the fda be bought out as well.. meant to say fda, as we know the faa can be bought out..

Posted by: james | Dec 4 2021 23:51 utc | 267

@Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 4 2021 23:48 utc | 267
You can order one through internet…

Posted by: Black bread | Dec 5 2021 0:08 utc | 268

@ Black bread | Dec 5 2021 0:08 utc | 269 with the suggestion of internet purchase
I haven’t spent any time looking into what makes sense at what price…suggestions?
Thanks!

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 5 2021 1:44 utc | 269

@Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 5 2021 1:44 utc | 270
Although I am now in full boicot against multinational corporations, especially those pushing the Covid pass from Germany and central Europe, I bought a not so bad one for my asthmatic mother in a Lidl supermarket in my zone.
Pharmacies here charge an extraordinary superprice for medical devices, like those to measure blood presure and so on.
Normally, Lidl devices, even for medical purpose, are usually of good quality at a more than reasonable price.
Regretably, if they collaborate impossing the new nazi rules, I will stop buying there.
Normally, they will ask you arounf 100 euro for one in an especialized commerce, you can find a good enough one from 30-40 euro, to measure PO2 you do not need a professional device.
Medisana has good enough devices at a reasonable price, especially retired people who must not waste their money.
Lidl Oximeter
You can test here this device is amongst the best 10 pulsioximeters in the market…But I know by experience with other devices…
Top 10 oximeters 2021
I hope this can help…

Posted by: Black bread | Dec 5 2021 2:55 utc | 270

@ Black bread | Dec 5 2021 2:55 utc | 271 with the oximeter advice…thanks
So I have had most of the Covid symptoms since last Sunday and because I have been so sick I didn’t go get tested for Covid until today….and the result was negative…..I am struggling with that and expect I will get tested again in a couple of days and see if the result is different.
Supposedly it is a bit early for “regular” flu season but that seems to be the only other option….so now things could get really interesting with lots of seasonal flu folk having Covid symptoms not showing positive in tests

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 5 2021 4:34 utc | 271

james @ 266
So, let me get this straight…
our pseudo scientist, pseudo intellectual suzan comes in here and shits all over you, disparaging you from head to toe, and you respond with ‘thanks’ and ‘cheers’ and hundreds of words, all of which you’ve expressed before, in an obviously useless attempt to placate her.
Are you running for Jesus?

Posted by: john | Dec 5 2021 11:51 utc | 272

Posted by: john | Dec 5 2021 11:51 utc | 273

lol…. what’s the point of being hostile online? it would be different in person… people ultimately have to live with themselves…

Posted by: james | Dec 5 2021 17:18 utc | 274

@Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 5 2021 4:34 utc | 272
Have you been “vaccinated”?
I can asure from insider soruces working at tghe front line that starting october there is a whole wave of kinda anticipated flu like process, plus serious faringitis, plus recidivant orine infections, plus cardiolofic events going on overwhleming the hospitals and neighborhood deosensaries non stop…
These people are sure these are “vaccine”´s side effects.
Omicron just came quite handy to cover fro this, with its symptoms which the SouthAfrican doctor who dsivoered it described as very mild, as it is supposed to be, now in the West cover all the myriad of “vaccines2 complications…
You just may have the usual flu or other kind of coronavirus so frecuent in every cold season
Increase intake of Vits.C and D, plus Acetilcysteine 600mg, plus Zinc, plus Quercetine, plus Melatonine, which act as super antioxidants, all with no side effects and which yo ucan find i nasscoaitons in any stoee of through internet.
You could give a positive test anytime, especially if you are not vaccinated, since those test are not so especific to differetiate flu or any other coronavirus, as we already know months ago from the very creator of these tests, and since the original virus was never isolated from any infected human tissue, as confirmed by our own governmetn when requested to answer by particular citizens, and finally recognized by the Chinese already months ago
.
At some health organizations, morevoer, in case of realizing a PCR test, they differentiate the CT at which the sample is submitted only to fit with their narrative on increasing unvaccinated falling sick with Covid-19, since the daily eevidence at hiospitals wards and ER, and ICUs is just the opposite, they have bribed the media to go along with their narrrative any time and at unison. In this region only media have receives 5 million euro for “their service”, when people, including those suffering serious side effects are left at their own, along those whose businesses and commerces qwere ruined by the lockdowns. The central government gave 100 million euro, on alibi of “energetic effficiency” to reform unions seats ( while the budget for health care fro the next year has been reduced in 11.000 euro in the middle of an allegedly unending pandemic…) which is quite an ammount for them being curtrently dedicated to promote experimental pharma products and go convincing the workers on strike to leave it at that and return to work.
It is months already that the very WHO warned about lowing the CT to below 30 cicles to avoid false positives in tests, but to no avail with governments who already had not but to continue in their escape forward, since backtracking would necessarily mean resignation, trial on genocide, and jail…or worst…
Try not to medical so much and take care.
My friend started with flu like symptoms, tested positive for Covid-19, went on for two weeks sicks, asthmatic, her familiy doctor refused to even see her becuase she was positive, which is a crime and a negligence, she told me she had very ugly green thick sputum, I went to bring her Azitromicin 500mg three caps whci hi had from my past travelling activity, and got recovered in a few days. I know from my mother that Asthma or COPD with color sputum means you have an infection and need antribiotics and possibly corticosteroids…
What is ahppening here is that `people are being left without medcial attention, especially unvaccinated, which is part of the genocide of dissidents goind on.

Posted by: Black bread | Dec 5 2021 17:19 utc | 275

@ Black bread | Dec 5 2021 17:19 utc | 276 with the follow up
I am not “vaccinated” in the US meaning I haven’t allowed anyone to inject the mRNA drugs into me.
In spite of being hit by a truck while riding my bicycle and being on narcotics for 3+ years I hate Big Pharma and only take medical marijuana, herbals….and Ivermectin currently
I talked to my Ivermectin provider today and they said to wait a week before retesting given my negative result yesterday and she was unwilling to speculate which way that test would go. I may have reduced my viral load at this point to where it is undetectable and given the PCR limitations I would be surprised….she said that 2 PCR tests are really what are need, I think simultaneously, to compare against each other….I have not read that elsewhere but trust her perspective at this time.
I am going to get an oximeter directly…..maybe through my Ivermectin provider.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 5 2021 19:57 utc | 276

james @ 275
what’s the point of being hostile online
In this case, I dunno, but responding to hostility is one’s obligation.
Otherwise shit stains run amok.

Posted by: john | Dec 5 2021 21:16 utc | 277

@Cyril
It is confirmed: you are an idiot.
800k+ cases in total vs 377883 cases in 2020 means measurably more COVID deaths in 2021 vs 2020 – except for mathematically challenging morons like you.
Thank you for so kindly referencing log graphs, log or not, the underlying numbers are the same.
Nor am I the least bit impressed with your lack of ability to read the actual data.
In any case, thank you for so clearly demonstrating your lack of credibility and competence.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 5 2021 21:24 utc | 278

@ 278 john… in this example, i don’t think it is worth it… but as you have probably noted before, i am not beyond confronting posters here at moa!

Posted by: james | Dec 5 2021 22:08 utc | 279

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 5 2021 19:57 utc | 277
I may have reduced my viral load at this point to where it is undetectable and given the PCR limitations
____________________________________________________
Are you positive the test they gave was a PCR test?
Unless you were told it was PCR I would guess it was just the rapid antigen test.
The antigen test produces lots of false negatives, but is much faster and cheaper than PCR.

Posted by: jinn | Dec 5 2021 23:05 utc | 280

john said: “responding to hostility is one’s obligation.”
LOL , too funny.
The particular hostility you say he is obliged to respond to is in the form of a criticism that he is not being hostile enough.

Posted by: jinn | Dec 5 2021 23:14 utc | 281

@ james | Dec 4 2021 23:46 utc | 266
I read through your list, James. That is pretty much how I understood it from your previous posts. You didn’t mention masking, which can cause fist fights at school board meetings here. The state legislature in their great scientific wisdom passed a ban on localities implementing their own masking standards. But everyone can conceal carry in public so we’re covered.
My selection of one factual error of Grieve’s to highlight, which you then called out from a moral high ground position, was because I found the entire polemic riddled with misconceived science and so representative.
John has never forgiven me for an earlier conversation we had when he was heralding some nonsense science. With grieved taking the position, paraphrasing, don’t vaccinate in this pandemic with these vaccines — the only ones available to us, any criticism of Grieved provokes my personal troll’s hostility toward me. I may be cutting at times, dry and sarcastic, but the emotion and intent is never hostile. Projection circles the globe while honesty is still looking for her shoes.
For the record, I am not and have never held myself out to be learned. I do a lot of physical work — not a desk person.

Posted by: suzan | Dec 6 2021 2:07 utc | 282

@ 283 suzan… thanks for your response… my post @ 247 was a mild form of meddling in others conversations although i intentionally left out names… my comment was not directed at you, so much as the back and forth being had between you and greived… it was directed at both of you! i see this type of dynamic all the time and it is disappointing to witness.. i am a part of the community here and felt like saying what i did… no moral high ground on my part, as i am guilty of the same from time to time too, and again – not directed at you specifically..
regarding your posts @ 248 / 283… which is it?? what you say @ 248 “neither here nor there, never committing to a position, etc.etc.”? or, as you state @ 283 which i quote again – “That is pretty much how I understood it from your previous posts. ” which is it, because the 2 comments from you don’t line up! either i never commit to a position, or you knew my position from previous posts and were just making a cutting and dishonest statement.. i know what i think!
maybe there is a language issue… or maybe you were just pissed off with me for saying what i said so you lashed out… i don’t know where you live, but it sounds like maybe the usa.. i can’t tell.. i find it helpful to know for the obvious reason this covid response is very different in different parts of the world.. i have been very open about being from canada and living on vancouver island, playing music and etc… not everyone has to say all this, but it can be helpful in understanding others on an internet forum.
as for masking.. here are some of my thoughts.. i am seeing a lot of hypocritical positioning on this topic here in canada.. for example.. people going to a restaurant who have their vaccine passports ( you have to have this to enter restaurants in canada) have to have their mask on, but when they sit down at the table, they can take them off, all in very close proximity to other people who have already been seated and are not wearing masks… i realize people can’t eat with their mask on, but it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me for people to walk into a crowded room where no one is wearing a mask, but until they have shown their vaccine passport and been seated, they have to have the mask on…
let me respond a different way to this question… masks outdoors doesn’t make much sense to me… masks in venues, like live music or theatre where everyone has already been asked for their vaccine passport doesn’t make much sense to me either… if on the other hand in a place like the usa where music performances are happening and no vaccine passport is required – then i can see how some people would be more comfortable with masks on, then not, but in this instance i think it is up to the individual… obviously there are all sorts of different set ups.. it seems canada’s response is more in line with some countries, but not like the usa’s response which seems broken down on a state by state basis…
i think the world is going thru a challenging psychological dynamic and there are no easy and simple solutions.. there is no one size fits all prescription basically, although i know this is what a number of people want… happy trails!

Posted by: james | Dec 6 2021 3:20 utc | 283

@jinn | Dec 5 2021 23:05 utc | 281 who wrote
”
Are you positive the test they gave was a PCR test?
Unless you were told it was PCR I would guess it was just the rapid antigen test.
The antigen test produces lots of false negatives, but is much faster and cheaper than PCR.
”
I was tested with TaqPath that has PCR letters associated with on the web site but unsure myself

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 6 2021 3:58 utc | 284

james @ 284
regarding your posts @ 248 / 283… which is it?? what you say @ 248 “neither here nor there, never committing to a position, etc.etc.”? or, as you state @ 283 which i quote again – “That is pretty much how I understood it from your previous posts. ” which is it, because the 2 comments from you don’t line up! either i never commit to a position, or you knew my position from previous posts and were just making a cutting and dishonest statement.. i know what i think!
Yeah, james, classic mumbo jumbo from suzan.
suzan @ 283
John has never forgiven me for an earlier conversation we had when he was heralding some nonsense science
I wasn’t heralding anything, just presenting Geert Vanden Bossche’s early prognosis of the situation. His nonsense has yet to be debunked.
You, on the other hand, were not only one of the first out of the gate to get the jab, which of course was your prerogative, but one of the first out of the gate to demean a major voice of opposition. You’ve been shilling for big Pharma ever since.
I don’t think of myself as a troll, suzan, but it’s true, I do find your brand of bullshit particularly irksome.

Posted by: john | Dec 6 2021 16:06 utc | 285

@ john 286.. hey john.. i think Geert Vanden Bossche’s viewpoint moving forward has been very valuable and insightful… this is the beauty of the internet.. we can be informed of all the divergent lines of thinking from ordinary people, right up to bonafide experts in the field of immunology, virology and etc. etc… moa is a special place and i have learned a lot from so many people here, it ain’t funny! and….. and – drum roll, lol.. you ain’t a troll and neither is suzan!

Posted by: james | Dec 6 2021 22:48 utc | 286

Back to Main