Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 30, 2021

With Vaccine Fairness China And Russia Are Beating The 'West'

For a moment I thought that I had caught the Associated Press in reporting a wrong number.


But in fact both headlines are right.

XinhuaXi announces supplying Africa with additional 1 bln COVID-19 vaccine doses, pledges to jointly implement nine programs 

Chinese President Xi Jinping on Monday announced that China would provide an additional 1 billion doses of COVID-19 vaccines to Africa and pledged to jointly implement nine programs on China-Africa future cooperation.
...
To help the African Union (AU) achieve its goal of vaccinating 60 percent of the African population by 2022, President Xi announced that China would provide another one billion doses of vaccines to Africa, including 600 million doses as donation and 400 million doses to be provided through such means as joint production by Chinese companies and relevant African countries.

"In addition, China will undertake 10 medical and health projects for African countries, and send 1,500 medical personnel and public health experts to Africa," Xi added.

By Nov. 12, 2021, China had provided over 1.7 billion doses of COVID-19 vaccines to more than 110 countries and organizations, including 50 African countries and the AU Commission.

Associated PressChina to donate 600 million COVID-19 vaccine doses to Africa 

China has pledged to donate 600 million doses of its COVID-19 vaccines to Africa as the world grapples with the unequal distribution of the shots between rich and poor countries.

Chinese President Xi Jinping made the promise Monday in a video speech to the opening ceremony of a China-Africa forum on economic cooperation.

He said China will supply 1 billion doses in all. The other 400 million are to come through other routes such as production by Chinese companies in Africa.

Both headline can be justified. While Xinhua highlights the top number the AP emphasizes the donation.

China is putting the 'west' to shame with its donations and the additional vaccine doses it distributes. In exchange it will surely receive some good will:

Cavince Adhere, a Kenya-based international relations scholar, said the COVID-19 pandemic has served to highlight the strong partnership between China and Africa in the health sector.

"China now ranks as the top supplier of COVID-19 vaccines to Africa and a strong advocate for intellectual property liberalization to allow African countries to manufacture the commodities and further save their population and economies from the impacts of the global health crisis," Adhere added.

The 'west' is not only donating or otherwise distributing too little but it is also acting in an extremely egoistic way:


bigger

There is a higher percentage of people in rich countries who have received booster shots than have received any vaccination at all in the low-income world.

This while boosters are not necessary except for people in certain risk groups. (The bodies B and T memory cells have been trained during the first and second vaccination and will produce a high number of antibodies should an infection occur.)

That President Biden announced booster for everyone is actually a scandal:

The White House, which claimed to follow the science, did not follow the science but pharma lobbyists. It announced that everyone would get a third shot before the FDA had collected data on third shots, discussed the issue, and made a decision on it.
...
The head of the FDA vaccine office and her deputy resigned in protest over the White House announcement as there is not nearly enough data to justify a third vaccine shot. Scientifically there is simply no compelling reason for a third dose. The White House will now have to walk back its statements on the issue.

China has also supported attempts to suspend the patents on the vaccines so that they can be produced everywhere. The U.S. and some European countries are still dragging their feet over it:

Ahead of World Trade Organization meetings next week, 15 human rights and medical groups are urging President Joe Biden to push for an emergency intellectual property waiver for COVID-19 vaccines.

In a letter to Biden, they called the waiver “a moral imperative” that would help get more doses of the vaccine to low-income countries.

Though Biden has supported a waiver in the past, advocates — including Doctors Without Borders and Amnesty International — say he hasn’t put enough pressure on pharmaceutical companies and others who want to protect this lucrative IP.

Those calling for a waiver say it’s long overdue.

Compelling companies like Pfizer and Moderna to share vaccine formulas, they say, could have expanded manufacturing in low-income countries — including South Africa and India, which asked for a waiver last year.

In a critique of Biden's Summit for Democracy the Chinese and Russian ambassadors to the U.S. point to where it is lacking:

Democracy is not just about domestic governance; it should also be reflected in international relations. A truly democratic government will support democracy in international relations. It will not foster hegemony and division abroad while building democracy and unity at home. The path to prosperity of nations goes through respectful cooperation with each other, despite some differences in views on particular issues.
...
International affairs should be handled in accordance with the principles of extensive consultation, joint contribution, and shared benefits, and decided in the spirit of true multilateralism. There should be a more inclusive global governance, not something like “might makes right.” Seeking supremacy and putting oneself always first are acts of hegemonism and unilateralism, and are obviously anti-democratic.
...
Faced with an array of global challenges, countries urgently need to strengthen coordination and cooperation for common progress. Especially today when the international community needs to improve cooperation between all countries to counter the pandemic of COVID-19, foster economic development, and neutralize cross-border threats.

China and Russia call on countries: to stop using "value-based diplomacy" to provoke division and confrontation; to practice mutual respect and win-win cooperation in international relations, and to work for harmonious coexistence between countries with different social systems, ideologies, histories, cultures, and development levels.

China and Russia seem to live up to this while the 'west' is regrettably missing.

Posted by b on November 30, 2021 at 17:23 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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When at the begining of the pandemic president Yo announced to make Chinese deceloped vaccines a "global public good" I had high hopes. After all China is the super power of the 21st century, Beijing displaying a desire to take global responsibility is a good sign.

Then ... nothing happened.

While the West in a collective effort (through COVAX) provided vaccines to millions of people in the poorest countries of the world for free - despite it's own population being particular vulnurable - China was dragging it's feet. Chinese COVAX contributions were left at a symbolic level and vaccine donations to other countries remained at a sample level (several ten or hundred thousand jabs) with substantial ammounts being available only for cash.

Maybe my hopes had been unrealistic in the first place. After all Chinese officials have a moral obligation to care for Chinese citizens first and with such an enormous population that's quiet a challange.

Anyway. So now there is another announcement to do something for others, too, almost two years after the innitial promise. I wonder what is going to happen this time.

Posted by: m | Dec 1 2021 5:42 utc | 101

President Yo ?

Posted by: Featherless | Dec 1 2021 5:47 utc | 102

I thank b for allowing a discussion once again on this important topic - as I remember some countries (Mexico was one I think) rescinded an order for the mRNA vaccines, and I believe others also have done so.

Grieved @ 78 focuses appropriately on the VAERS and yellow card inputs from the public of the US and UK with respect to mortality issues, which are the ones I remember from earlier links on the subject. Thank you, Grieved. In the swirl of factoids and percentages, this element of our history with pandemics and vaccines pulses like a light from an onshore lighthouse -- it is what the people are testifying to; it is our witness, not for monetary gain but as you rightfully describe -- an epiphany.

I'll just repeat your nonemphasis: Thousands of deaths [and this is just the tip of the iceberg; you can be sure there are many more than this] ... One either grasps this point...

Or, one doesn't. Lord, have mercy on us all.

Posted by: juliania | Dec 1 2021 5:48 utc | 103

vetinLA | Dec 1 2021 2:47 utc | 85.. thanks! we are on the same wave length...

lex talionis | Dec 1 2021 5:41 utc | 100... nice track! i like the keyboard tracks on that.. i share the same birthdate as the keyboardist!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Greenfield

Posted by: james | Dec 1 2021 5:51 utc | 104

@ 99Featherless - Thank you! I will do for sure. Let's all hang in there and keep trying to figure out what the heck is going on.

A Featherless Foghorn Leghorn

Posted by: lex talionis | Dec 1 2021 6:00 utc | 105

@ james : no way you were born in 1949. You don’t look a day over 70 ;1

@ juliania : you are one of my favourite internet people. You are like sunshine ;1

@ m : yes, president Yo is a huge disappointment, especially compared to the shining city on the hill (almost as if it were on fire !)

Posted by: Featherless | Dec 1 2021 6:00 utc | 106

@ Lex : thanks bro ;1

Posted by: Featherless | Dec 1 2021 6:01 utc | 107

James, perhaps myself, you, juliana and featherless should go to the open forum for a love fest. I think we are supposted to be having a serious conversation about that covid thing...or something... ;)
I love the Stranglers. I saw them once in San Francisco during my misspent youth. Absolutely the best. The Doors of the "punk" era. And David Greenfield (RIP) the keyboardist was a master. How cool you share a b-day!
And to bring it all around and back on topic... to matt - "if the money's no good, just get a grip on yourself." how much do they pay you to post VoA here?

Posted by: lex talionis | Dec 1 2021 6:08 utc | 108

Believe it or not, my birthday is 9-11. I’m over on the open thread, as per your recommendation.

Posted by: Featherless | Dec 1 2021 6:31 utc | 109

@ featherless - same day, different year.....

@ lex - yes with the lovefest and Dostoevsky novels recommended by juliania! we can skip the voa posts, lol....

Posted by: james | Dec 1 2021 6:31 utc | 110

The Roman Republic was very sophisticated in the formulation of this [declaring state of exception, I guess, electing a dictator would be one such case] because they could seamlessly intertwine law, religion and their notion of the political community. They wouldn't understand how or why your question could even arise.

Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 30 2021 21:51 utc | 45

The Republic existed through few hundred years with a number of civil wars. One "sophisticated formulation" was that a leader of legions send to a distant war would return, with those legions, and if charismatic enough, he and his allies would create many "exceptions" to their benefit, with some massacre of the opponents. But, being Romans, they would bend the laws to make it "just". If I recall, the relatively stable periods were quite long, so Patroklos has a strong case, but the increase of Roman power was perversely undermining the system. The power that could cow foreigners to submission could do the same at home.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Dec 1 2021 7:13 utc | 111

Made it through another night, sleapt like a baby on calpol 😀

Drenched in sweat which means body is winning. Day 3 - feeling a lot better than first time round.

———_

@ everything Posted by: m - does it stand to moronic?
Pretty much every single statement you have made is bollocks.
That you believe it makes you extremely gullible and blinkered or you are shilling propaganda for the moron gatherings by zionaztoast - you presumably have nowt to say about Xi’s statement on Palestine or maybe that is exactly why you are spewing green bile here, does your head go all the way round too?

Posted by: D.G. | Dec 1 2021 7:16 utc | 112

D.G. I’m glad you’re feeling better. Mind you, it stands to reason, as this time your immune system was prepared, from having faced it before. Yes, it seems to me that’s the best scenario, building an immunity naturally, and not being compromised with who knows what.

I think I caught it before too, less severe than you, about a year ago. A nagging, distinctively scratchy thing in my throat, like a burr. Lasted forever. Natural immunity. Hurray for us !

Posted by: Featherless | Dec 1 2021 7:36 utc | 113

Dan Lynch, none of the data on COVID-19 is hard and fast. I visited my ~25 y/o dentist yesterday after he cancelled our appointment 2 weeks ago. He has had 3 injections of Pfizer and was sick from the Omicron variant. He was only mildly ill but had significant symptoms requiring quarantine. So 3 doses do not prevent infection or even illness. It may protect some groups against death but we really have no clue what to expect from this variant yet. Personally, it looks like it is wimpy compared to the others but is also becoming dominant so maybe it is a blessing. Most people are unaware that the original SARS-COV-1 mutated itself out of existence. Based on that it is not unexpected for SARS-COV-2 to also mutate itself out of existence or down to a negligible endemic infection (like other coronaviruses that infect humans). This will be bad for the pharma companies. What that means is anyone's guess but I have nothing but contempt for them and believe they are capable of anything and act in concert with the US government they have bought and paid for.

Posted by: Old Microbiologist | Dec 1 2021 7:38 utc | 114

@106 Featherless
@112 D.G.

I take your ad hominem attacks as confirmation. Anyway, Matt (@34) has provided the numbers. Refute them - if you can.


I think the exact opposite of what b claims has happened. Somebody in the Chinese foreign ministry told Xi that the current Chinese course of profit maximation is increasingly perceived as egoistic and threatens the reputation and diplomatic standing of the PRC. China can`t afford to be missing while the West is taking responsibility and donating larges numbers of vaccines through COVAX.

[By the way, quoting Rissia in the same breatt with China is just another MoA blunder. While China does to little but at least something the only thing that came from Russia so far were bombastic announcements.]

Posted by: m | Dec 1 2021 7:50 utc | 115

I just read the article Grieved linked to in #83, giving proper credit to Black bread @16 in the recent ‘Democracy’ circus thread. Kudos to both of you,
Bb for posting the link and Grieved for properly crediting that. Would that all commenters, even me, be so concientious.

(Any article linking to Ellen Brown or Catherine Austin Pitts should not easily be dismissed.)

It’s one of the clearest and most comprehensive analysis of the situation. I was reading along, kind of thinking it was making sense when I got
near the end and the topic of the PCR tests came up. Oh wow, that made me perk up as I think that is so fundamental to the whole
Narrative and needs to be magnified and spotlighted, as it exposes the scam.
“Thanks to the sensitivity of the swab, the pandemic can be turned on and off like a tap...”

But it’s the bigger financial picture of the article that is its strength. I urge all of you to read and study it,
and I eagerly await your comments, Grieved.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Dec 1 2021 8:04 utc | 116

@Matt,

Fake story?

China has already provided world with 1.5 billion doses of vaccine, on track to 2 billiion by end of year.

(http://www.gov.cn/xinwen/2021-10/23/content_5644476.htm)

US has provided the world less than 200 million…

The Western press seems to want to focus on “donations.”. But we know donations come with strings attached…. as always…. US has been using vaccines as a diplomatic baton.

Most of China’s vaccines have gone through COVAX - through a fully transparent and fair platform, at a very low cost.

MoA does not do fake news. It may make mistakes from time to time, and you may disagree on info provided here, but it dies not do fake news.

Sigh….

Posted by: Allen | Dec 1 2021 8:05 utc | 117

Matt @34 - and far too many other posts to list - urges us all to go to the link to the Duke Global Health Innovation Center here
https://launchandscalefaster.org/covid-19/vaccinedonations
and see how marvelous the USA has been in its generosity.

So I did and, yes indeed, I had to marvel at the figures.

Because they show that the USA is far and away the leader in both pledges (1,130,000,000 doses) and delivered (234,000,000 doses).

This is streets ahead of China (114,000,000 pledged, 65,000,000 delivered).

So, basically, the USA has pledged 10x the amount as China, and delivered 3.6x the doses. Huzzah! USA! USA! USA!

Only.... something keeps nagging me...... oh, yeah, the link that b provided, which has China pledging an ADDITIONAL 1,000,000,000 doses over and above the 1,700,000,000 doses it has ALREADY delivered.

Say that again?

Xinhuanet states that China has pledged 2.7 billion doses (versus 114 million listed at Duke) and had delivered 1.7 billion doses (versus 65 million listed at Duke).

Pardon?

How can there be such an order-of-magnitude discrepancy between the two sources?
It can not be simply a clerical error, and can only be a difference in methodology.

I wonder what?

Duke: ...."while supply for COVAX and bilateral deals for LMICs".....

Ahhhhhh, I see.

COVAX is the "COVID-19 Vaccines Global Access" program, so I suppose it is possible that China doesn't ship the vast bulk of its vaccines through COVAX, while the USA does.

Or.... maybe Duke is just full o' crap.

Either way, the figures that Matt clings to is not the slam dunk that it believes it to be, as even a moments perusal of the figures would tell you.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Dec 1 2021 8:16 utc | 118

Re: 98

I will read van der Pijl's new book after having finished Iain Davies' "Pseudopandemic" (which accidentally starts with a discussion involving "natural rights").

Fabio Vighi focuses on the financial sector and his explanation makes a lot of sense for a financially illiterate person like me. Van der Pijl seems to point to a framework I am more familiar with: Lockdowns etc. as counterinsurgency measures. This makes even more sense.

It all comes together, perhaps in Gates' and the Rockefeller Foundation's Digital ID.

Posted by: Cherrycoke | Dec 1 2021 8:35 utc | 119

@Dan Lynch 6 "...no known downside to boosters..." Really? Thousands dead shortly after the injections, millions suffering adverse events, many of them crippling, all this according to - seriously-underestimed - OFFICIAL figures just from Britain, Europe and USAmerica. I guess you could call that "no known" if you're blindly ignorant enough to not know these figures. The proper, three-word description for the quaxines is: Unnecessary, ineffectual, and dangerous. Though you could add 'hugely profitable for the Pharma gangsters, and very good for promoting much-desired authoritarian control'.

And in answer to Michael Weddington @3: In a time of war, a country may decide to draft because it's being attacked by a real enemy. In this war, the only enemy is the gang of criminal conspirators behind the scamdemic. The covid flu itself, which I saw off easily last year, at the age of 79 using only well-proven early-treatment cures, is too unexceptional - behind the gross distortions of the huge lying propaganda campaign promoting it - to be described as a dangerous enemy attacking the whole world. No need for a quaxine draft, when ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, vitamin D, and - above all - mega-dose vitamin C are perfectly adequate, reliable and genuinely-safe actual curatives - amongst yet others also proven by frontline doctors curing actual patients.

Posted by: Rhisiart Gwilym | Dec 1 2021 10:24 utc | 120

The only acceptable "vaccine fairness" is to stop forcing it on people who do not want it.

Anything else is criminal hypocrisy.

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 1 2021 11:10 utc | 121

@Michael Weddington #3
Irrelevant and stupid.
The conscription act active in the US is an actual law passed by Congress in 1940.
Where is the equivalent for vaccine mandates?

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 1 2021 11:15 utc | 122

Amazing how good a response to Covid is possible once the profit motive is eliminated, huh?

Posted by: Hart Liss | Dec 1 2021 11:22 utc | 123

@b #31
Even disregarding structural issues like the polio vaccine (or smallpox for that matter) being forever effective vs. COVID-19 vaccines not even being effective for 1 year, the reality is that the polio vaccine was developed over a 30 year span.
Even the Salk vaccine - there was a 10 year span between development and mass administration to the public.
I'm not against vaccines in general or even the COVID vaccine in particular, but I am against the railroading into mass vaccination for a vaccine with minimal longevity, unproven technology (in the case of mRNA), and unclear effectiveness for all demographics of people who are extremely low risk to begin with.
The vaccination of school children is particularly idiotic since the vaccine is clearly not affected spread or infection rates.
The medical mainstream establishment combined with the mainstream media and the limousine liberals/"meritocratic" elites have declared vaccination to be the savior - which it is not.
These same groups are using all manner of nonsense under the clear belief that vaccination is the best solution - which it is not.
There is no part of this setup which makes any kind of sense except the Kafka-esque.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 1 2021 11:22 utc | 124

I don't know anything about Kees van der Pijl but going through his Twitter Timeline, some of the articles and videos he likes and retweets are absolutely batshit crazy. Phew!

Posted by: v | Dec 1 2021 11:26 utc | 125

I am against mandatory vaccination (Impfpflicht in German, one of my favorite words, where else are you going to find a consonant clusterfuck like "mpfpfl"?).

But people who are not vaccinated should simply not be allowed to use public transportation, fly on airlines or be allowed into indoor restaurants, cafés or other crowded venues.

That is not a violation of rights, that is simply forcing people to accept the consequences of their personal free choice.

Posted by: Malchik Ralf | Dec 1 2021 11:50 utc | 126

@Malchik Ralf why in God's name would you not allow unvaccinated people to use public transportation or be allowed into indoor restaurants ? Vaccinated people do transmit the virus and there is no significant difference in transmissibility between vaccinated and unvaccinated people. In France, our government has imposed the passe sanitaire since August 2021, and promised that it would be the definitive way to ensure no new COVID wave. And now they are all wringing their hands and speak breathlessly of the 5th wave and that only a third shot and mandatory vaccination will save us from total doom. Which by implication means the passe sanitaire is total and useless shit. But as with any other nonsensical measure taken over the last two years, nobody in the media or the government stops to think about it and assess what went wrong, every new scare is just a pretext to do more of the same.

Seriously what is wrong with you guys, why can't you grasp basic scientific concepts and think logically ? You seem not to be able to combine facts together and form conclusions, is logical thinking so difficult ?

Posted by: Micron | Dec 1 2021 12:16 utc | 127

@ (O)Micron,

it is about reducing the spread of a highly contagious disease

and the variants are growing more contagious

when hospital ICU beds fill up, the death rate skyrockets

PS: one can present an argument without getting personal

Posted by: Malchik Ralf | Dec 1 2021 12:41 utc | 128

@Malchik Ralf

Sorry for getting personal when someone starts phantasizing about apartheids and removing entire blocks of the population from public life. If you can't see why theorizing about making millions of people second-class citizens may sound offensive to me, I guess you need to reflect a bit more.

now about your arguments : you don't seem to compute what I said.

"it is about reducing the spread of a highly contagious disease" as I told you, vaccinated people do transmit as much as unvaccinated people. Also, France has implemented the measures you recommend (banning unvaccinated or untested people from public places, restaurants) since August 2021 and this didn't prevent a 5th wave (of cases). Conclusion : what you propose is not supported by evidence and by solid data, and its implementation in a 67-million country did not produce the expected effect. Translation : it's useless.

"and the variants are growing more contagious" so what ? Flu is contagious. Rhinite is contagious. Gastroenteritis is contagious. What is important is dangerosity. What you say is meaningless.

"when hospital ICU beds fill up, the death rate skyrockets" Fact-free opinion, unsubstantiated by data and observation of real-life events. Your opinion is contradicted by what actually happened in France since at least a year.

In a way, you're quite representative of the average joe fed with the mighty wurlitzer : lots of incoherent, vapid one-liners, no coherent thoughts, no use of facts.

Posted by: Micron | Dec 1 2021 13:36 utc | 129

I wish someone could provide reliable facts and figures about the extent of this flu in Africa, or parts of Africa.
Is the number of deaths due to this flu low? Or high?
Are there more deaths from malaria?
Are Hydroxychloroquine and/or Ivermectin available to the people of Africa and, if so, are they effective, meaning that a "vaccine" from anywhere is not necessary since the African continent is NOT overwhelmed with deaths from this flu?

I tend to agree with those that say clean water is a more pressing problem at this time.

Posted by: lizzie dw | Dec 1 2021 13:45 utc | 130

it's sloppy to talk about vaccine policies and positions without distinguishing between mRNA and traditional vaccines.

Posted by: mastameta | Dec 1 2021 13:56 utc | 131

Matt, say hello to your supervisor. You need an extra bonus for your "hard work" here.

Posted by: hes | Dec 1 2021 14:15 utc | 132

Just my observation but the waves this year seem to be driven mostly by the fully vaccinated. That may be due to disinformation from the mass media (I guess it is a habit now and they cannot help it) but most people apparently thought that being vaccinated gave you immunity. Consider the fool in this very thread who claimed "3 jabs protect from infection", which is totally wrong. Many people, in the US anyway, threw away their masks when fully vaxxed and headed down to the club to hoot and holler and satisfy their herding instinct. In the process they boosted the spread of their disease.

Very strange, but I have been accosted recently during my supermarket foraging expeditions by maskless individuals angrily accusing me of being anti-vax, presumably because I was still wearing a mask and was socially distancing myself from the retard huddles. As cynical as I am about the cognitive abilities of contemporary Americans I still find myself surprised by how stupid the ignorant are even while loudly virtue signalling their own imagined superiority. At times it is like a pack of dogs barking about being Einsteins. They really don't seem to be capable of seeing that they are just stupid dogs barking stupid empty phrases that were dumped into their empty heads by the TV the previous night.

"Nuh-uh! I don't watch TV! I have Netflix!"

My goodness, they are so stupid.

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 1 2021 14:15 utc | 133

The troll Matt has now been corrected multiple times by a number of posters about the relative numbers of vaccine doses offered internationally by the US and China. Does the troll apologize to james and Jen and others or does the troll prove its trollishness by doubling down on the disinformation and trolling? One of the more conspicuous characteristics of a troll is that they ignore the comments debunking their own and forge ahead regardless, or at best move on to the next bullet point in their FUD list only to "circle back" to the debunked points when they think nobody will notice. Nickel-posting troll farm employees are always on a mission when they visit fora and that mission has nothing to do with educating themselves or refining their views in the crucible of discourse.

Of course the above also applies to the poster "m". That poster's anti-China and anti-Russia screeds have been debunked countless times by many different posters over the years but he always comes back with the very same proven-false assertions again and again. Note that I am not saying that poster, or the troll Matt, should be banned though. Their posts have given genuine forum participants an opportunity and reason to flex their cranial muscles. This has resulted in some posts that in my opinion have been informative and of good quality.

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 1 2021 14:17 utc | 134

@Gruff
by your definition, the US govt is a troll.
is one a troll if he believes his own trollery? I don't know what matt believes, or care, but the manifold agents of MICIMATT mostly believe their own claptrap. belief tends to converge with self interest, and what poses no conflict of interest or psychic investment tends to simply reproduce what is repeated. there are many matts who believe, amen, and cannot process information to the contrary. after all, empire propaganda is world class.

Posted by: mastameta | Dec 1 2021 15:00 utc | 135

mastameta @136

I would say it still counts as trollery even if the troll is convinced of his own righteousness. The key here is that the communication is only one way with the troll. The troll is never listening but only telling.

You are correct that this does make the category of "troll" a little too broad. This would apply to everyone from Jen "Circle-back" Psaki to all of the presstitutes and talking heads of the mass media. Then again, in this larger view of things it might be correct to say that the Establishment really is trolling the population. To look at specific instances, wouldn't "Iraqi WMDs!" be some mass trolling? How about "He crossed state lines!!!"? Or maybe "Russian collusion!! OMG!!"? "Douma gas attacks!!!" and "Uighur concentration camps!!"?

It could be that we are enveloped in an all-encompassing atmosphere of trollery. People who consume mass quantities of mass media might even experience trolling withdrawals from visiting MoA discussions, even considering Matt and "m"s best efforts to keep readers supplied with troll posts.

Thanks, that is certainly an angle to contemplate.

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 1 2021 15:38 utc | 136

@135 William Gruff
I know, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks but you should really finally learn to read. No, Matts numbers have not been debunked.

"Donated" and "provided" are not the same words.

Just like China and Russia aren't the same countries.

It is true that China has -sold- a lot of vaccines ("probided", "provided to the world", "made commercially available" etc.) Those with money get vaccines. Those wirhout money get it not.

When it comes to providing vaccines -without making a profit from it- to those who don't have enough money ("donate") it looks entirely different. In this respect China has up to now done relatively little [and Russia next to nothing]. Much less than the USA and certainly much less than the collective West.

Sorry that the facts don't line up with the narrative.

Posted by: m | Dec 1 2021 15:48 utc | 137

If an action taken by the public sector in the name of public health is "tyranny" then I guess I'm a tyrant.

Actually, "tyranny" means the use of power to benefit one's own self. In this case, American society ideally consists of three hundred million individual, private, tyrants. In actual fact, it consists of the tyrannies of several million business owners, who have property rights over individuals who sell their labor-power in exchange for wages, at least during the eight or so averages that they're contracted for.

Give me the public tyranny which we all could have a say in (with proper restructuring of the governmental system) over the unaccountable private tyrannies of a million different bosses.

Posted by: fnord | Dec 1 2021 15:53 utc | 138

Annother hint:

One has also to differentiate between the number of jabs that China has provided to other countries and the number of jabs that China has provided "to the world". Because China is a part of the world. The latter number includes vaccines that China has probided to China in addition to vaccined that China has provided to other countries.

Posted by: m | Dec 1 2021 15:55 utc | 139

Vaccines and this pandemic are the symptoms of modern healthcare (big pharma). A big racket, where palliative care is the SOP.

B himself acknowledged that booster shots are profit making. So you think the first 2 shots are for love of human kind!

Seriously!

Posted by: Anonymous | Dec 1 2021 16:04 utc | 140

Yet RFK Jr. isn't telling the whole truth as he describes the Outlaw US Empire as a "liberal democracy." Hard to tell the truth when writing for that audience.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 1 2021 1:09 utc | 72>/blockquote>

Well, you gots to keep the family money safe...

Posted by: Sarlat La Canède | Dec 1 2021 16:15 utc | 141

@Malchik Ralf #127
Your comment makes no sense whatsoever.
Since vaccination has nothing to do with transmission or infection - it makes no difference if you are vaccinated or not in a public setting.
The only difference is personal: *if* you do get it, your chance of dying is lower.
The only reason for banning of unvaccinated from public activities is to try and force them to be vaccinated - and this is entirely a fascist decision if the laws to do so aren't voted on.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 1 2021 16:22 utc | 142


@ William Gruff | Dec 1 2021 14:15 utc | 134

My theory is that the conditioning done to people who regularly engage mass media goes far beyond the media’s manipulative content.

A primary contributory cause to the seemingly increased inability of many to overcome mass media conditioned “stupidity” (your word) imo are the relentless idiotic interruptions, whatever presentation engaged. So I see this is not a fixed condition of “stupidity” but something constantly reinforced through state-backed commercial interested formats.

Constant interruptions function to impede the human mind from developing a stable, clear ability to reflect on what is heard or seen, from developing critical thinking skills, binding it to captive to opportunistic interests.

I have never stopped wearing n95 mask in indoor public spaces. If someone stares I give them the “how” /“no fear”/ hi hand sign, palm facing out, fingers up. This seems to allay their anxiety or whatever.

Posted by: suzan | Dec 1 2021 16:46 utc | 143

Goshy!
'The best thing ever is one day after another', as the saying goes.
If the appearance of that devilish Omicron variant in Europe pretty earlier than in South Africa is confirmed...
the Africans will get quickly pissed off in rage.
And with any qty of shots donated to the continent, China will emerge as the big winner in Africa, without any trigger pulling and without any notable effort.
That s what comes quick around the corner of our western
deep rooted egotism and stupidity.

Posted by: augusto | Dec 1 2021 16:48 utc | 144

For those benighted souls who think that Covid-19 vaccines do not work, check out this graph. And please, don't let your first reaction be that this is a piece of propaganda from the CDC.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status

Posted by: Rob | Dec 1 2021 16:53 utc | 145

@146 Rob

Looks like it is a piece of propaganda from the CDC.

Where is the graph for comparing mortality rates?

Who cares about case numbers?

The reason for that however is because those who don't buy into the covid narrative are living it up sans 6 feet of distance between them and their loved ones.

The unvaccinated are going to have higher cases 100% of the time and it has nothing to do with the vaccine.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 1 2021 17:10 utc | 146

@DG (2) "Mandatory vaccination is coming to Germany too.

This is a violation of human rights.

This is tyranny by any other name.

This is madness without method."

Did you ever stop to think that an unvaccinated person carrying the Covid-19 virus who infects another person who subsequently gets severely ill and dies is a violation of the second person's human rights? No, you probably didn't, because you only care about your own rights. You apparently are willing to bear the risk of dying from Covid, and other people must bear the risk of being exposed to unvaccinated you, which is not their willing choice. That seems more like selfishness than anything else.

BTW, Covid vaccines WORK:

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status

Posted by: Rob | Dec 1 2021 17:10 utc | 147

@Rob #145
More Americans have died of COVID in 2021 than 2020.
Over 80% of American adults have gotten at least 1 COVID shot.
Seems to me a pretty major disconnect.
No matter how you slice it - if vaccination really did anything like what it is believed to (as opposed to what it has measurably done), the death numbers should not be higher.
Of course, in reality the vaccine does nothing to reduce either spread of COVID or getting COVID to start with - the only thing it has measurably done is reduce the rate of death if you get COVID.
To me, this seems the ultimate in personal choice.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 1 2021 17:13 utc | 148

Rob @146

I don't think many posters are arguing that vaccination doesn't reduce the severity of symptoms. As for the graph, does an asymptomatic covid carrier or someone with mild symptoms who doesn't go to the hospital count as a "case"? This isn't mentioned and I suspect such infected individuals are typically not counted as "cases". They just go to work/theater/restaurant with the sniffles and infect everyone around them.

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 1 2021 17:20 utc | 149

@james

Ah OK, so you ... drone... trolling when claiming I've "cluttered" the board with such links.

In the end, "james", I caught you lying several times :)

Posted by: Matt | Dec 1 2021 2:55 utc | 87

Man between two mirrors, see everything.

Posted by: Sarlat La Canède | Dec 1 2021 17:31 utc | 150

suzan @144: "...relentless idiotic interruptions..."

Something like a cognitive montage? Hit the media consumer with rapid fire BS narratives, shifting to the next before they can process the current and previous ones?

That is certainly a technique that we see in mass media, but I hesitate to accept it as an excuse for stupidity. It is people's choice not to turn the TV off for a couple days or years and pull their heads together.

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 1 2021 17:31 utc | 151

Here are two tidbits of information :

- Regarding Africa, a relatively exhaustive article courtesy of ZeroHedge :https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/low-vaccination-rates-africas-covid-deaths-remain-far-below-europe-us. Yeah I know it's ZH. But pay attention to the raw data provided, especially the scatterplot showing vaccination rates comparatively to death rates. Note also that last year the so-called "epidemiological experts" were predicting absolute disaster and biblical devastation over Africa, since then the continent has fared pretty well, thank you.

- A study just published in the Lancet, I'm relaying the RT article : https://www.rt.com/news/541900-mass-vaccination-covid-transmission/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=RSS.

Title says it all, "The epidemiological relevance of the COVID-19-vaccinated population is increasing". Some excerpts from the RT article :

"Examining new infections in Germany, researchers found that the rate of cases among fully vaccinated individuals aged 60 and older has risen from 16.9% in July to 58.9% in October.

Offering a clear assessment that fully vaccinated people are increasingly becoming the source of Covid transmission, the study identified a similar situation in the UK. Throughout Britain, the number of household contacts exposed to unvaccinated cases (23%) was slightly lower than the number exposed to vaccinated individuals (25%).

In the space of three weeks in Britain, 100 Covid cases were reported among individuals who are 60 or older. Out of those infections, 89.7% of people were fully vaccinated, while 3.4% were unvaccinated."

"Backing up the fears expressed in the study, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) currently lists four of the five areas across the US with the highest percentage of fully vaccinated individuals as high transmission counties."

I would say this is pretty definitive in my view.

Posted by: Micron | Dec 1 2021 17:36 utc | 152

@Rob 147

You sound like Rochelle Walensky

Posted by: DG | Dec 1 2021 17:46 utc | 153

Thank you, Featherless @ 106, what a compliment! I will tell you that this time of year the sun comes pouring in my back room, so it is hard not to be positive. Just as it is in many of the older churches, which I have visited in these regions -- their orientation is specifically aligned so that sunshine pours in upon the altars approaching the solstice and Christmas time. I worked for a while at the oldest church in Santa Fe, San Miguel, built by the first Spanish and their Mexican Indian companions when they arrived in the last quarter of the 16th century. It was my privilege every morning from August to December entering a side door, to open the big front door, which had a long viga across barring entry ever since vandals had stolen some of the statues. Only that long I was there, and, but at a pittance, the best job I ever had.

Posted by: juliania | Dec 1 2021 18:08 utc | 154

I should have said above, every work day morning, as the church was and still is in use by local parishioners.

Posted by: juliania | Dec 1 2021 18:12 utc | 155

woops, to the open forum I go! But first, my son was sent RFKjr's book "The Real Dr. Fauci"- so I have scanned it. It is good that there are others mentioned on this thread as well. The big ship is turning, slowly turning...

Posted by: juliania | Dec 1 2021 18:22 utc | 156

Thanks for your recommendation, wayinnorway @ 116 -- that comment about the tests is very important. I remember vaguely that they can be gamed -- have never wanted to take one. Something about the cycling process, which can be slow or rapid depending on results desired. Also statistics such as percentages -- I'm no mathematician, so I steer clear of those as well. This virus is very different from the polio virus in its constant mutations. We never heard of a new polio virus coming along to replace in scary fashion what polio was. And the bad and good of that flexibility is only just becoming graspable by the general public.

Icebergs melt!

Posted by: juliania | Dec 1 2021 18:45 utc | 157

@NemesisCalling | Dec 1 2021 17:10 utc | 146

[Regarding https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status ]

Looks like it is a piece of propaganda from the CDC.

The CDC cites published papers such as Scobie, Johnson, Suthar, et al. According to you, this is propaganda.

Meanwhile, you cite nothing but apparently the output of your rear, and that is definitely not propaganda.


Who cares about case numbers?

It should be obvious: the more Covid-19 cases, the more deaths from Covid-19. CDC's graph clearly shows that the unvaccinated are some two or three times more likely to be bitten hard -- and occasionally five times or more -- than the vaccinated.

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 1 2021 18:48 utc | 158

"Posted by: waynorinorway " -- apologies! (Tricky that.)

Posted by: juliania | Dec 1 2021 18:53 utc | 159

@Cyril #158
Here are US COVID deaths in 2021 vs. 2020:

IMGUR pic

82% of US adults have received at least 1 jab. A bit of 60% of the US is fully vaccinated according to Johns Hopkins data.

Now if the COVID vaccine truly does something positive - it is very odd how both relative and absolute COVID death numbers are higher in 2021 than 2020.

Perhaps you can reconcile this discrepancy.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 1 2021 19:06 utc | 160


The MRNA vaccines have a lot of unwanton side effects, but myocarditis increasingly turns out to be the gorilla (in the room). Statistical correlations already exist since a few months, and esteemed medical journals like "Circulation" and "New England Journal of Medicine" are uncovering the clinical causality just now. Males aged from 12 to 30 years have a chance of 1:5000 to catch myocarditis after a MRNA jab (new data from Hongkong even suggest 1:2700), which is of course far too high a risk! These boys have a permanently damaged heart and a drastically reduced life expectancy.

For myself - I'm a healthy 60years old male - I've estimated the risk to be about 1:20000. Ready to pay 100 Euro a month (Greece) or 600 Euro a month (Austria) for refusing to take this risk, if I'm forced to choose.


Posted by: mk | Dec 1 2021 19:06 utc | 161

@DG (153) “You sound like Rochelle Walensky”

Is that supposed to be a substantive critique of my post and the associated link? I find nothing of substance in it whatsoever, and that’s because you have no way to come back against empirical evidence other than with meaningless digs. If that puts me on the same side as Walensky, then so be it.

Posted by: Rob | Dec 1 2021 19:33 utc | 162

@Rob 162

There is no way or reason to seriously criticise CDC since they’ve been lying from day one. Only a few months ago Walensky was on tv saying that vaccinated ppl do not catch or transmit the virus. So what’s the point?

Walensky, March 21

“ A vaccinated person gets exposed to the virus. The virus does not infect them. The virus cannot then use that person to go anywhere else. It cannot use a vaccinated person as a host to get more people.”

https://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/transcript-rachel-maddow-show-3-29-21-n1262442

And you want a substantive critique? Get serious 🧐

Posted by: DG | Dec 1 2021 20:24 utc | 163

Rob and Gruff 146 & 149 Dec 1 2021 17:20 utc

I would suggest a correction to "not arguing that vaccination doesn't reduce the severity of symptoms." Perhaps more correct to say vaccination "initially" for some "reduces the severity of symptoms".

I think Rob is stuck on information that is based on cooked numbers based on intentionally using a "test" (PCR) which can not and does not do what the "authorities" say it does as per the test inventor; and wide spread suppressing of information which shows the vaccines themselves are doing more harm than any vaccine ever in history, and by far more than the virus it supposedly targets.

In the past a normal process for dealing with new vaccines would have terminated the use of any vaccine after 50 directly related deaths. We now have thousands of deaths directly subsequent to having been forcefully volunteered to be guinea pigs.

The fake Vaccines provide a protected breading ground in those fake vaccinated by suppressing some symptoms so the fake vaccinated invariably spread, unencumbered, more variants. It guarantees that the virus will continue to spread because the fake vaccine isn't a vaccine at all.

WG, I think Rob doesn't listen and isn't going to. Whether he is capable or not is unimportant.

Posted by: Doesitreallymatter | Dec 1 2021 20:43 utc | 164

@DG (163). That statement was made prior to the emergence of the Delta variant and was essentially true at the time. But the truth changes as the facts change, and Delta has changed many facts about the pandemic. Don’t you want scientists and public health leaders to keep up with the facts? You are guilty of demonizing a public servant for doing her job.

Posted by: Rob | Dec 1 2021 20:49 utc | 165

Should already be known that in the US the priority is profit for the few over all else.
If the elites(misnomer) cared about people they would have made vaccine freely available to it's citizens and others around the world.
They really do not care about anyone's lives outside their own circle (see climate change, covid pandemic, healthcare privatization, lack of basic rights).
Eventually, everyone will get covid/flu. Unfortunately, those countries which had/have aggressive lockdowns will eventually go thru what other countries have like the US. Understand China's decision to go the lockdown route since already has been subjected to biological warfare via the US.
Jimmy Dore on hospital closures in the US
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz46ZQSRdRE
Jimmy Dore on everyone will get covid
Ongoing, Medicare privatization
https://consortiumnews.com/2021/12/01/biden-continues-trump-era-ploy-to-privatize-medicare/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7bYeLszh0M

Posted by: Joe | Dec 1 2021 21:10 utc | 166

@165

Is her job to know how many ppl who work for the CDC are vaccinated?

Is her job to know how many of them work from home?

Posted by: DG | Dec 1 2021 21:12 utc | 167

@DG
It is pointless to debate with the believers.
An you be with half a brain cell knew there were going to be variants as soon as COVID established itself in the human population - which occurred already March 2020.
Nor is the comment that “statements were true at the time” the least bit credible given that Israel was showing widespread vaccine breakthroughs before Delta.
This goes along with the CDC’s own lies that there would be no vaccine mandate, vax protection against infections/spread etc etc.
The vaccine was never going to “stop” COVID.
Nor has there been any credible response to the reality that the COVID infection curve is unchanged from 2020 to 2021 despite mass vaccination.
I am still somewhat trusting that the vax does reduce the death rate, but I am completely disbelieving that the back reduces death rate even by 50%.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 1 2021 21:48 utc | 168

@168

I think you are right. :)

Posted by: DG | Dec 1 2021 22:03 utc | 169

Gulo #4

Thank you for the African paper. It is a good source and well considered,

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Dec 1 2021 22:15 utc | 170

@Rob #145

Thank you for the link. The data for the younger age brackets is hard to see on the graph, so here are the deaths per 100,000 population for the peak death week and the latest available week in tabular format:

    U.S. COVID-19 deaths per 100,000 population…
…for the week of Aug 15 – Aug 21, 2021 (peak deaths)
Age Unvaxxed Fully Risk of death vaxxed for unvaxxed vs. fully vaxxed
18–29 0.75 0.00 ∞× 30–49 5.45 0.12 45× 50–64 22.49 0.95 24× 65–79 75.46 3.25 23× 80+ 92.68 15.68 6×
…for the week of Sep 26 – Oct 2, 2021 (most recent data available)
Age Unvaxxed Fully Risk of death vaxxed for unvaxxed vs. fully vaxxed
18–29 0.19 0.00 ∞× 30–49 1.67 0.11 15× 50–64 8.36 0.39 21× 65–79 31.87 1.57 20× 80+ 38.28 6.51 6×

Summing up over all 26 weeks (6 months) in the graph, I got:

    U.S. COVID-19 deaths per 100,000 population
    for the 6 months of Apr 4 – Oct 2, 2021
Age Unvaxxed Fully Risk of death vaxxed for unvaxxed vs. fully vaxxed
18–29 7.74 0.10 77× 30–49 51.74 1.79 29× 50–64 226.28 9.39 24× 65–79 776.70 34.25 23× 80+ 1048.82 151.58 7×

So, over these 6 months, 1.05% of 80+ years old unvaccinated U.S. citizens have died from COVID-19, while only 0.15% of 80+ years old fully vaccinated U.S. citizens have died from COVID-19.

Clearly, vaccines significantly reduce deaths in all age brackets. However, it is my understanding—and please correct me if I’m wrong—that current vaccines do not significantly reduce infection and transmission rates, therefore, the decision to take or not take a vaccine only affects the health of the person making the decision. That’s one of the reasons why I oppose mandatory vaccination. On the other hand, it is also my understanding that masks do reduce infection and transmission rates. That’s why I support mandatory mask wearing in crowded places (public transport, shops, etc.).

Posted by: S | Dec 1 2021 22:18 utc | 171

m #101

When at the begining of the pandemic president Yo ....

PC m proceed immediately to the IT service desk as you AI processor appears to have lost its I. Your spell check will be refurbished simultaneously.
Yo HOHOHO

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Dec 1 2021 22:53 utc | 172

juliania #156

The big ship is turning, slowly turning...

Thank you heaps. That reminds me of an old poem written by a great aussie cartoonist Patric Cook. It was accompanied by excellent rough sketches of Billy McMahon in Nelson like skippers regalia etc.

When the ship of state
strikes the rocks of fate
and the tides of time are turning
they tend to bucket the captain
when its the whole damned ship that's burning.


Apart from that bleak aside, I share your optimism.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Dec 1 2021 23:01 utc | 173

I am into my Covid experience and and well enough now to share a bit.

The world around me says if I don't have a PCR test that comes back positive then I can't have Covid....agnotology is the manufacturing of ignorance and we have it here in spades.

I have taken 5 of the 2/day Ivermectin doses in a protocol that goes for 5 days and 10 pills (18 mg)....I think I was infected on the 26th

Everyones experience is different but some anecdotal bits

My sense of smell comes and goes

I had taken my weekly dose of prophylaxis Ivermectin on the day I believe I was infected so the onset was up/down/up for two days and I thought it could just be a cold....HA!

This illness has led me back into using my inversion table to help clear my lungs....you can hang over the side of a bed and do this. The protocol is to get your head down and then cup your hands and strike you chest (percussive cupping) while doing heavy breathing....I have a small container near me for the expectorate.

I am taking Yinchiao/Benadryl to slow the phlegm buildup and using some Robitussin DM to minimize coughing at night...sleep has been a problem in spite of the increased horizontal time.

I went though phases of chills and woosyness but those seem to be over now.

I am tired....but highly incensed by the crimes against humanity that this has become in the West.....when does the handling of this become genocide?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 1 2021 23:01 utc | 174

@S #171
The e problem I have with your conclusions is that it would require many multiples of unvaxxed to support the still underlining overall COVId death numbers.
Or more specifically, that covid infection rates are 6x to 150x of last year.
That looks like utter bullshit to me given a 50% to 60%+ fulll vax rate.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 1 2021 23:09 utc | 175

@174

I wish you a speedy recovery. I’ve been there and I know how you feel. Just in case you feel difficulty in breathing get some Pulmicort … and pls get massive doses of vitamin D.

Posted by: DG | Dec 1 2021 23:27 utc | 176

@137 M insists that Matt's numbers have not been debunked.

And, fair's fair, if the people at Duke have gone to the trouble of collating their numbers then the least a person can do is to have a look at them.

Looking, looking, looking..... hmmmm. Very odd.

Duke insists that the USA has delivered 270 million doses on its pledge of 1.3 billion doses. Huzzah!

So, just curious, let's use their interactive map to see who delivered what to where.

Hmmmm. Very odd. China, China, China, Canada (!), China, China, Israel, Australia, China, China, China, etc.

Not one country reports a donation FROM the USA. Not. A. One.

It would be nice to get the data, but that isn't an option. But you can go to the second tab that shows the "Flow of vaccine donations", and it very helpfully tells us that all of the USA's 270 million doses went to "Unknown".

Hmmm, so Duke knows for a fact that the USA has donated 270 million doses, but it has actually no idea who it donated those doses to.

Yet m and Matt want us to accept that data as being rock-solid.

I will note, though, that this tab shows quite conclusively what I guessed at in a previous post: the vast bulk of USA pledges are to COVAX, whereas almost nothing that is donated by China goes through COVAX, and therein will certainly lie the vast discrepancy between what Duke is reporting for China and what the Chinese are reporting.

Which, on that note, brings us to the second part of m's diatribe: that the Chinese are playing fast and loose by including its own domestic use into the numbers for "donations" e.g. the vast bulk of the 1.7 billion doses already donated to other countries.

This is easily refuted: even rabidly anti-Chinese sources such as this https://bridgebeijing.com/our-publications/our-publications-1/china-covid-19-vaccines-tracker/#Methodology accept that the Chinese have delivered 1.1 billion doses to countries outside of China itself.

(the discrepency is, apparently, found here "This graphic only includes bilateral contributions directly from China")

Of course, m makes a big song and dance that the vast bulk of China's foreign donations are not "donations" at all, but are "sales".

Duke (his source) and Bridge (my source) also make a big song and dance about that, but the difficulty is that they don't appear to DEFINE the two terms, so it is very difficult to make an informed decision as to where they draw the line between the two.

Indeed, obfuscation abounds, and not necessarily from the Chinese.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the figures are being jiggery-pokery'ed by using COVAX as the dividing line. But, again, it is extraordinarily difficult to come to a clear conclusion.

It's almost as if there is a deliberate attempt to mislead. I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you.

Discuss.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Dec 1 2021 23:32 utc | 177

@174
"when does the handling of this become genocide?"
Just like all the previous genocides committed by the west were handled. More genocide.
Sorry to hear of your health issues. Had a bad cold Jan 2019 which may have been covid. Not had a cold since. Not taking anything except multi-vitamin (58 US).

Posted by: Joe | Dec 1 2021 23:38 utc | 178

it's sloppy to talk about vaccine policies and positions without distinguishing between mRNA and traditional vaccines.

Posted by: mastameta | Dec 1 2021 13:56 utc | 131

Rem acu testigi ... Ouch !

Posted by: Sarlat La Canède | Dec 1 2021 23:55 utc | 179

ph, 174, best of luck & a swift recovery. i believe i had covid early, fall of 2019. i shall share my protocol & trust you shall take what suits & discard what doesn't. 1) curcumin, massive doses (@ least 20,00mgs) 2) vit C, again as high as your body accepts 3) zinc/high vit Bcomplex/D/coQ10/mk7/selenium/resveratrol/multi minerals/vit A, beta carol 4) herbs: garlic (all you can manage)/OOO (drops in water/juice)/golden seal/echineca (again drops in liquid) (qatar has just published results on echineca)/inhale white thyme when you need.

believe me i know it's a lot. b/c mine was early my gp didn't know what i had & b/c of his belief it's best for the immune system to defend itself...i had no choice. for better or worse i survived. my gp prior (2019) didn't believe in curcumin. last month he forwarded a pubmed out of india on the great results they've had.

with the ivermectin & your usual routine i expect you'll be well in a week. i'm 74 & have a history of lung issues so my recovery (sans ivermectin) was much longer than yours. i sincerely wish you well.

Posted by: emersonreturn | Dec 2 2021 0:13 utc | 180

@S (171). Thanks for taking the time to read the empirical evidence contained in that link and not joining in with the ignorant antivaxxers who are infecting this thread. On the issue of vaccinated individuals acquiring Covid infection, it appears that their viral carriage is lower and lasts for a shorter period than in non-vaccinated individuals. Hence breakthrough infections are less likely to be spread to others. Also, a very recent study in Israel indicates that persons receiving a third (booster) dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine are much less likely to acquire the virus than those who have received only two doses in the first few weeks. The duration of this protection is uncertain at this point.

Posted by: Rob | Dec 2 2021 0:15 utc | 181

@ S | Dec 1 2021 22:18 utc | 171 / @ Rob | Dec 2 2021 0:15 utc | 182

thanks s and rob... what are your thoughts on mandatory masks inside theatres where the only people allowed in have to show their vaccine passports, as it is here in canada? thoughts?? a lot of this doesn't make sense to me..

@ yeah, right.. i gave up a long time ago... i admire your perseverance!

Posted by: james | Dec 2 2021 0:40 utc | 182

@ emersonreturn and others with best wishes for my recovery....thanks.

I am taking a gaggle of herbal supplements which I didn't list in my last comment and would just tell folks to see what is at FLCCC....I am not going to try and go out now to get something else but appreciate the suggestions.

And I agree with others that the new obfuscators on this site are mixing real Covid vaccines with mRHA drugs and totally glossing over the negative results of the mRNA drugs while cherry picking likely bought "studies" in support of mRNA drugs.

All the while Ivermectin is out there healing Covid across the spectrum of variants but where is the "Fairness Doctrine" of media reporting this perspective?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 2 2021 0:44 utc | 183

@ psychohistorian | Dec 1 2021 23:01 utc | 174

I send you well wishes ph. May you defeat the viral invader and not suffer much for long. Given my understanding of ivermectin’s multifarious anti-viral properties, it will probably save you from severe suffering if you persist in your treatment and take care.

Just curious, were you wearing a mask when you thought you were exposed? The problem with these new mutations are their extremely high viral loads such that the immune system is overcome before the saving horses are out of the barn.

My understanding is that many people do not understand the need for a layered approach to disease prevention and community health with this evolving virus. It is not an either or proposition but both, and more. While vaccines and preventives diminish suffering for individuals, it is still necessary to use layered measures to obstruct transmission within the community. Preventives serve a vital function but are interdependent with other layered responses for achieving community well being. For example, as a vaccinated person I have never ceased to wear n95 mask in situations which require such — public indoor spaces. I have no problem if others in public do not wear masks as that is their prerogative just so long as I have access to effective n95 masking, which, thankfully (due to China manufacturing N95 masks), I have.

If you can psychohistorian, when there are bursts of sunshine outside your home, go outside. Bask in that great healer, sunlight, a bio recharge source direct from the universe itself.

May you heal soon. You have to! Who else will take your place here of constantly reminding us of the origin and solution to our collective misery in the financial capital imperium?

Posted by: suzan | Dec 2 2021 1:33 utc | 184

@183 james I find it a useful exercise to look at the data when someone insists on being smug about their hobby-horse.

In this case the data simply doesn't add up (the USA has delivered 270 million doses! To "Unknown"!) or defy commonsense (China is only donating 1/10 the amount that the USA is donating)

The latter is the more interesting because, honestly, how did they come to those figures?

Both Matt and M give the clue, the latter in particular by banging on about how China's figures are for "sales", not for "donations".

Which, again, defies commonsense: if Sinovac has been *selling* billions of doses to developing countries that can't afford them then (a) it has the world's greatest marketing manager and (b) the company must be the most profitable pharmaceutical company on the planet.

I suspect very much that neither is true.

So the question is this: when is *this* dose a "sale", and when it *that* dose a "donation"?

You would think that this is a simple question, but in fact it is suspiciously difficult to come to definitive answer precisely because those two words are not defined. They are simply stated as self-evident facts, quite beyond questioning.

They are what the web sites say that they are. Nothing more. No less.

I suspect very much that the criteria is a jumbled combination of conveniences: if the dose goes to COVAX then it is a "donation", but if the dose is delivered under a signed contract then it is a "sale" even if no money is involved.

A peppercorn payment to satisfy the bookkeeping? "Sale, doesn't count"
A contract stipulating delivery dates? "Sale, doesn't count"

That's what I suspect, and I suspect that was chosen precisely because it makes the USA look really, really good even if it isn't actually delivering all that much, and it makes China look very very bad even though it is delivering vast quantities of doses where it is most needed.

But I don't know that for a fact because (did I mention this before? I think I did) these web sites appear to be going out of their way to make the distinction between "sales" and "donations".... err.... very indistinct.

Make you wonder why, don't it?

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Dec 2 2021 1:36 utc | 185

@182 Rob

You're incorrect about viral load - studies have now shown that vaccinated hosts carry the same load as unvaccinated hosts. Your fact is incorrect.

Like you, I won't link to a source for that, but only because it's been linked here previously, and more than once. Your non-fact is an old myth that has been disproved, and has not been linked by any source that passes scrutiny.

~~

@183 james

I'm astonished that you didn't pick up on the viral load false fact from Rob.

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 2 2021 1:41 utc | 186

S | Dec 1 2021 22:18 utc | 171

If we boil those numbers down it is 1 in 500 non-vaccinated people are dying.

Is that really a health emergency? I don't know what the actual numbers are for more mundane forms of death, such as car accidents or falling in the shower, etc., but 1 in 500 hardly seems to me to be a crisis, so why are we not treating this in a more rational and objective fashion?

I agree with your last paragraph, I think that is one of the most sane comments I have read concerning the vax vs unvax debate I have read.

Posted by: David F | Dec 2 2021 2:04 utc | 187

@ Grieved | Dec 2 2021 1:41 utc | 187

What is the percentage of vaccinated hosts to unvaccinated hosts spreading the mutating virus? In other words are the vaccinated hosts ( the immunocompromised, vit d deficient, etc., unmasked in enclosed public spaces) a minority compared to those who are unvaccinated or not taking preventive medicines or measures? Or are they the majority? Here I see most people unmasked in public spaces. The population is about 50% vaccinated when including everybody in the stats. The spread is on.

There is no equivalence between counting viral loads without population demographic accountability

Posted by: suzan | Dec 2 2021 2:05 utc | 188

Beyond narrowly looking at just the donations part that is relatively small, here's the wider context in which that takes place:

By the end of this year, 2021, the wealthy "Western" G7 countries (the US, UK, Canada, EU, and Japan) will have hoarded / stockpiled an excess 1.2 billion vaccine doses, with 1.06 billion not earmarked for donation, depriving the poorer countries of vaccines:

"The wealthy countries’ deals with vaccine manufacturers have limited the vaccines available to COVAX and led to vaccine hoarding."

"Former British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, accused rich countries of committing a 'moral outrage' by stockpiling COVID-19 doses while poor countries were struggling to get supplies."

"The West have a stranglehold on the vaccine supplies," Brown said.

"The stockpiling has also delayed dose-sharing by G7 countries with Africa and low-income countries, Brown said."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/5/rich-countries-will-have-1-2bn-vaccine-dose-surplus-data-firm

Also from Gordon Brown, a United Nations special envoy:

"Even as the gap between the vaccines haves of Europe and the vaccine have-nots of Africa mushroomed, the EU insisted on commandeering millions of South African-produced Johnson & Johnson one-shot vaccines and sending them out of Africa into Europe."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/26/new-covid-variant-rich-countries-hoarding-vaccines

The West's donations, a positive, has to be viewed in the context of their larger hoarding. Their net contribution in terms of vaccine doses available to the rest of the world may be a net negative.

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Dec 2 2021 2:42 utc | 189

@ suzan | Dec 2 2021 1:33 utc | 185 who asked if I was masked when I was infected.

Not sure. There are two possibilities and in one I was masked but in the other I was not. It probably was the both unmasked situation with the added data that that co-worker has an 11 year old son in school....

For the past two years I have been working on a house remodel with a number of trade folks. For the most part they do not wear masks unless asked and then some don't cover the nose. A few wear masks and ask that I do, which I agree to. I just don't see Covid as the global pandemic its been made into. Yes it is a nasty piece of bio-terrorism and kills people but where is the perspective? And truth instead of the lies about the need for the mRNA drugs

I wear a mask when out in the world to respect others space because it is our Commons but I have not forced folks coming on my property to do so and won't.

I am ok with having contracted Covid and hope I build some good immunity in the experience. I am comfortable with my Covid risk management with an Ivermectin path and encourage others to investigate what it can add to their quiver of Covid health tools

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 2 2021 2:42 utc | 190

This interactive map helps to see which countries are hoarding vaccines. The purple colour shows countries that have secured vaccines for at least 100% of their population:

https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/imf-and-covid19/IMF-WHO-COVID-19-Vaccine-Supply-Tracker

If this IMF-produced map also showed another colour for countries that have hoarded vaccines for more than double their population, then that would reveal that it's mostly the Five Eyes gang, US/UK/Canada/Australia, and the rest of NATO, and G7 club member Japan, that are hoarding. (Canada is amongst the worst, we have enough for over 4 times our population, and we even dipped into the COVAX supply at one point, if I'm not mistaken.)

China and Russia, by contrast, have secured vaccines for only 82% and 70% of their populations. So China, accounting for about half of the commercially-exported vaccine in the world, and Russia, have been sharing with the rest of the world in contrast to the West's me-first hoarding.

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Dec 2 2021 2:44 utc | 191

@David F (188) How easy it is to minimize the deaths of others. There have now been more than 800,000 deaths in the United States and 5.2 million deaths worldwide directly attributable to Covid-19. These numbers are almost certainly vast underestimates of the actual death toll, possibly by as much as 50% according to some demographers. But according to you, that is an acceptable death rate, certainly not worth slowing economic activity and causing people to wear masks and get vaccinated. I wonder how you would feel if you or someone close to you became a victim.

Posted by: Rob | Dec 2 2021 2:48 utc | 192

@Grieved (187) Peak viral loads are about the same for vaccinated and unvaccinated people, but the former clear the virus more quickly and are thus less likely to transmit it to others. But the most important benefit of vaccination by far is the markedly reduced rates of hospitalization and death that it confers. That fact is indisputable to anyone who is aware of actual data. Do you dispute it?

Posted by: Rob | Dec 2 2021 2:56 utc | 193

Yeah, Right @186, there's also the possibility of a "sale" at cost, or even at a loss, for all we know. China could, be selling at cost, at a loss, or at minimal profit. That's just speculation, but I suspect that their profit margin per dose is far less than say Pfizer's or Moderna's.

psychohistorian, hope you get well soon and have a full recovery. suzan @185, agreed about a layered approach, and like what you wrote about sunlight ...

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Dec 2 2021 3:05 utc | 194

Rob@193

You are correct, I am an uncaring monster, and the more dead we see, the better.

You do realize that nearly 165,000 people die every day under whatever circumstances, which is 60,000,000 people every year.

Basic math says this is not a crisis, but if it makes you feel better to clutch your pearls and scream, then carry on.

Posted by: David F | Dec 2 2021 3:05 utc | 195

@ Rob | Dec 2 2021 2:56 utc | 194 who wrote
"
But the most important benefit of vaccination by far is the markedly reduced rates of hospitalization and death that it confers. That fact is indisputable to anyone who is aware of actual data. Do you dispute it?
"

The problem with your position is that it doesn't hold up when you compare the strategy with usage of Ivermectin as those mid-African countries have shown.

The mRNA strategy is based on lies and abuse of the normal vaccine development protections. Please admit in writing here what the old protocol was for stopping a vaccine roll out and what we are seeing here......how many deaths will it take to stop this bio-terrorism madness that none are even admitting is going on here.

What a shit show you are trying to put lipstick on.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 2 2021 3:08 utc | 196

Rob

Furthermore, the simple fact that after 1 1/2 year plus, I don't know a single person intimately who has even been hospitalized, let alone died.

I mean if this was the crisis I am expected to believe it is, then I should know at least a few people who have gotten incredibly sick and/or died.

Yet I don't.

Posted by: David F | Dec 2 2021 3:08 utc | 197

@194 Rob

This is my last engagement with you so let's hope it's nutritious. After this, you may have the floor - we're 2 years into this thing and readers will know what they know and not know what they don't know. I wish good fortune to all.

You do admit, then, that the viral load is equivalent - that was my original dispute with you. Thanks for coming around.

As for vaccinated clearing the load faster - I'm not exactly calling bullshit, but I have not seen this shown, nor ever heard the claim. I personally cannot accept your claim without seeing some proof - BUT, I would never ask anyone to go to the work of answering a question of mine (I will bear it in mind next time I'm around facts to study), so I won't now. You may certainly volunteer, for the benefit of the readership, if you wish, of course.

~~

As to your logic that vaccines minimize hospitalization and death, I pretty much accept this, since everyone says it. I don't care enough about it to examine those people who dispute even this datum, so for this discussion I'm quite happy to agree.

But so what? Vaccinations don't prevent infection or transmission, therefore any mass policy is fruitless to mandate vaccination - as is any guilt trip to get vaccinated "to save lives".

Your logic of " most important benefit of vaccination by far is the markedly reduced rates of hospitalization and death" only offers a benefit of one-to-one. There's no benefit here of one-to-many.

Each person vaccinated saves personal distress, including death. But that's all. Nothing else is achieved for the mass population

As an aside, vaccinated people may brush off mild symptoms and never realize they're spreading the virus to others. In comparison, one can imagine that most unvaccinated people will respond appropriately if they get noticeable symptoms.

So, since this is an issue of public health (and not private, individual health) - there seems no benefit to the public from an enforcing of vaccination.

~~

And there are many other things that can be said about this pandemic and especially about the Pfizer experimental drug, including the 17,000 recorded reports of death from their usage - and the likelihood of a compromised immune system from vaccination - and on, and on, and on (no wonder james gets tired of reading this stuff).

We've discussed it all here, and with links in abundance. One can search the site for compelling evidence of great harm from the official and commercial response to the pandemic. The data are completely overwhelming to support the finding of great harm versus almost zero benefit. Anyone who doesn't know by now, I can only pray for.

Enjoy the floor, because I yield it to you.

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 2 2021 3:28 utc | 198

@174 psychohistorian

It seems to me the dose of Ivermectin you have been taking is very low. I go by 5 mg per 10 kg of body weight a day. I've only taken it once, and 2 people in my household have taken a similar dosage, and it within a day or 2 quelled all symptoms (I do combine this with Zinc + quercitin, vitamin C and D). I don't know if it was a common cold or Covid-19, I like to avoid getting tested.

Posted by: pepa65 | Dec 2 2021 3:31 utc | 199

@ Yeah, Right | Dec 2 2021 1:36 utc | 186.. thanks.. i agree with you.. i smell a rat in the news outlets... i don't trust the duke data though.. maybe the china data isn't good either, but my bet is if voa is picking up the duke data, it is more like puke data, then duke data, lol.... they puked it up for the cia outlet!

@ Grieved | Dec 2 2021 1:41 utc | 187... that was mostly a hat tip to acknowledge someone trying to engage in civil talk here...i appreciate that about you too as you know! i'm not digging deep into the details... i suppose i can be criticized for this.. i try to follow the conversation, but i don't catch everything... i left you a reply in the last covid thread right about you posted the malone video - on the quotes from mattais desmet... i still don't know if you saw it! if you are really interested in what mattais desmet has to say - go check that out... its well worth the visit.. cheers..

my take is this ongoing covid conversation is a lot more complicated and nuanced them some might like to appreciate.... i volunteer that my viewpoint is skewed because i live in canada, as opposed to the usa, as just one of many differences on the ground that will affect how this gets processed.. ivermectin isn't an option here in canada as i understand it.. it is in the usa... of course i can ask - why is this so? and i come up with the same answer - bullshit control on the part of the multinational corps, but still - there are a number of different ways to get and receive information and not all of it is available... i'm not a statistician and i don't know that anyone else is here either... so, a few numbers and bits of information can differently give one a feeling they know what is going or, or alternatively - that they don't know what the fuck is going on.. it seems to me different people choose to respond differently to these subtly different looking set ups... as i've said before, i hope we will know more clearly a few years down the road... i am not sure if this is true though.. what more do we know 20 years on from 9-11? that was another example of ''the great reset'' or not... i don't like the term the great reset...

speaking of mattais desmet, he was recommending the hannah arendt books..i love the subtitle to this book of hers i am now reading - a report on the banality of evil.... people like to think there are genius's directly this big set up we are living thru... i like how arendt frames it - the banality of evil....these folks really aren't that smart! more banal if anything!

Posted by: james | Dec 2 2021 4:08 utc | 200

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