Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 30, 2021

With Vaccine Fairness China And Russia Are Beating The 'West'

For a moment I thought that I had caught the Associated Press in reporting a wrong number.


But in fact both headlines are right.

XinhuaXi announces supplying Africa with additional 1 bln COVID-19 vaccine doses, pledges to jointly implement nine programs 

Chinese President Xi Jinping on Monday announced that China would provide an additional 1 billion doses of COVID-19 vaccines to Africa and pledged to jointly implement nine programs on China-Africa future cooperation.
...
To help the African Union (AU) achieve its goal of vaccinating 60 percent of the African population by 2022, President Xi announced that China would provide another one billion doses of vaccines to Africa, including 600 million doses as donation and 400 million doses to be provided through such means as joint production by Chinese companies and relevant African countries.

"In addition, China will undertake 10 medical and health projects for African countries, and send 1,500 medical personnel and public health experts to Africa," Xi added.

By Nov. 12, 2021, China had provided over 1.7 billion doses of COVID-19 vaccines to more than 110 countries and organizations, including 50 African countries and the AU Commission.

Associated PressChina to donate 600 million COVID-19 vaccine doses to Africa 

China has pledged to donate 600 million doses of its COVID-19 vaccines to Africa as the world grapples with the unequal distribution of the shots between rich and poor countries.

Chinese President Xi Jinping made the promise Monday in a video speech to the opening ceremony of a China-Africa forum on economic cooperation.

He said China will supply 1 billion doses in all. The other 400 million are to come through other routes such as production by Chinese companies in Africa.

Both headline can be justified. While Xinhua highlights the top number the AP emphasizes the donation.

China is putting the 'west' to shame with its donations and the additional vaccine doses it distributes. In exchange it will surely receive some good will:

Cavince Adhere, a Kenya-based international relations scholar, said the COVID-19 pandemic has served to highlight the strong partnership between China and Africa in the health sector.

"China now ranks as the top supplier of COVID-19 vaccines to Africa and a strong advocate for intellectual property liberalization to allow African countries to manufacture the commodities and further save their population and economies from the impacts of the global health crisis," Adhere added.

The 'west' is not only donating or otherwise distributing too little but it is also acting in an extremely egoistic way:


bigger

There is a higher percentage of people in rich countries who have received booster shots than have received any vaccination at all in the low-income world.

This while boosters are not necessary except for people in certain risk groups. (The bodies B and T memory cells have been trained during the first and second vaccination and will produce a high number of antibodies should an infection occur.)

That President Biden announced booster for everyone is actually a scandal:

The White House, which claimed to follow the science, did not follow the science but pharma lobbyists. It announced that everyone would get a third shot before the FDA had collected data on third shots, discussed the issue, and made a decision on it.
...
The head of the FDA vaccine office and her deputy resigned in protest over the White House announcement as there is not nearly enough data to justify a third vaccine shot. Scientifically there is simply no compelling reason for a third dose. The White House will now have to walk back its statements on the issue.

China has also supported attempts to suspend the patents on the vaccines so that they can be produced everywhere. The U.S. and some European countries are still dragging their feet over it:

Ahead of World Trade Organization meetings next week, 15 human rights and medical groups are urging President Joe Biden to push for an emergency intellectual property waiver for COVID-19 vaccines.

In a letter to Biden, they called the waiver “a moral imperative” that would help get more doses of the vaccine to low-income countries.

Though Biden has supported a waiver in the past, advocates — including Doctors Without Borders and Amnesty International — say he hasn’t put enough pressure on pharmaceutical companies and others who want to protect this lucrative IP.

Those calling for a waiver say it’s long overdue.

Compelling companies like Pfizer and Moderna to share vaccine formulas, they say, could have expanded manufacturing in low-income countries — including South Africa and India, which asked for a waiver last year.

In a critique of Biden's Summit for Democracy the Chinese and Russian ambassadors to the U.S. point to where it is lacking:

Democracy is not just about domestic governance; it should also be reflected in international relations. A truly democratic government will support democracy in international relations. It will not foster hegemony and division abroad while building democracy and unity at home. The path to prosperity of nations goes through respectful cooperation with each other, despite some differences in views on particular issues.
...
International affairs should be handled in accordance with the principles of extensive consultation, joint contribution, and shared benefits, and decided in the spirit of true multilateralism. There should be a more inclusive global governance, not something like “might makes right.” Seeking supremacy and putting oneself always first are acts of hegemonism and unilateralism, and are obviously anti-democratic.
...
Faced with an array of global challenges, countries urgently need to strengthen coordination and cooperation for common progress. Especially today when the international community needs to improve cooperation between all countries to counter the pandemic of COVID-19, foster economic development, and neutralize cross-border threats.

China and Russia call on countries: to stop using "value-based diplomacy" to provoke division and confrontation; to practice mutual respect and win-win cooperation in international relations, and to work for harmonious coexistence between countries with different social systems, ideologies, histories, cultures, and development levels.

China and Russia seem to live up to this while the 'west' is regrettably missing.

Posted by b on November 30, 2021 at 17:23 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Too bad Russia has been lagging behind with vaccinations at home. Only 38% of Russians are vaccinated against COVID.
With obvious results.

Posted by: Midville | Nov 30 2021 17:27 utc | 1

Today greek government announced that the vaccines will be mandatory for everyone over 60 years old from 16th of January 2022. In case they don’t comply they will have to pay 100 euros every month.

Mandatory vaccination is coming to Germany too.

This is a violation of human rights.

This is tyranny by any other name.

This is madness without method.

Posted by: DG | Nov 30 2021 17:38 utc | 2

Question for DG:

Do you think a draft in time of war is tyranny and a violation of human rights?

Posted by: Michael Weddington | Nov 30 2021 17:53 utc | 3

I don't doubt the Russian/Chinese benevolence, but Africa appears to fairing just fine on its own, thank you.

Explainig the Lower Covid-19 Burden in Africa: https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/ijerph/ijerph-18-08638/article_deploy/ijerph-18-08638-v2.pdf

Posted by: Gulo | Nov 30 2021 17:56 utc | 4

In the West vaccination policy is ruled by pharmaceutical industry profits. I am sure the 'donated' vaccines have been paid for by the USG. The industry profits without restraint. I believe WHO has still not approved the Russian vaccines - a purely political decision.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 30 2021 17:59 utc | 5

2 jabs protect from death (if you are young and otherwise healthy) but not from infection.
3 jabs protect from infection (though we don't yet know for how long).

Protecting from infection is a good thing unless you desire the pandemic to continue forever and ever, and unless you desire millions to suffer "long covid." There is no known downside to boosters in and of itself.

It is valid to argue that the priority should be vaccinating the entire world. But what is the bottleneck? Within the U.S., there is no shortage of vaccine and the bottleneck is the anti-vaxxers who refuse to get jabbed.

The West is wrong to protect vaccine patents, and it is wrong to block approval of the excellent Sputnik vaccine. We should be doing everything within our power to help vaccinate the entire world.

Because of their cold storage requirements, the mRna vaccines are poorly suited for 3rd world countries. Instead, those countries are better served by the Russian Sputnik vaccine, which works just as well and is easier to store.

So, yes, the West could and should do much more to vaccinate the 3rd world, but at the same time, everyone should get a booster shot. Don't be anti-booster, b.

Posted by: Dan Lynch | Nov 30 2021 17:59 utc | 6

>>China has also supported attempts to suspend the patents on the vaccines so that they can be produced everywhere. The U.S. and some European countries are still dragging their feet over it

Biden was supportive, but the EU and in particular Germany blocked the move to suspend vaccine patents. In this case, the culprit is not the US.

Posted by: Passer by | Nov 30 2021 18:08 utc | 7

Data that does not seem to be shared.

While the talking heads of the West brag of the highest number of donated doses, doing searches through the tubes, it seems difficult to get past Google's ranking algorithms to determine how many actual doses are distributed across the planet by all of the producers. The barriers to obtain this information appear to be intentional. That may just be my cynicism, but it seems difficult to determine.

Posted by: Michael.j | Nov 30 2021 18:18 utc | 8

@3 Wow... just, Wow! Do I support a draft? Kinda depends on the war wouldn't it?? Just like mandatory vaccines might be justified if the CFR were 2-3%, but are definitely not justified when the CFR is about .1% without prophylactic treatment and as low as 0.003% with prophylactic treatment.

@7 so the third jab protects you from infection does it? Says the same folks that promised the first two jabs did the same... check out the Israeli results and learn something

Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice, shame on me.

Posted by: Les7 | Nov 30 2021 18:29 utc | 9

Not to denigrate China's good deed here; but Africa does not need the vaccine ... the death rates are miniscule. Look at the data from Nigeria, South Africa, Algeria, etc. ... the death rates are on the order of 10 or so per day during the peaks. These nations have FAR more pressing health needs from traditional diseases as well as dirty water and lack of nutritious food.

Posted by: Caliman | Nov 30 2021 18:30 utc | 10

Biden got almost 6 million from big pharma. There is no way in hell he's going to pressure them to do anything. That is the most money, so far, donated to any politician. Obama, no public option and fake, came in second at just under five million.

Only anti-bodies from Keith Richards plasma can save us now.

https://fivegunswest.blogspot.com/2020/11/only-antibodies-from-keith-richards.html

Oh, I was waiting for the open forum but we got name checked live with Pepe Escobar, Max Blumenthal and Ben Norton on the Grey Zone....watch drunk Nato Foreign ministers sing We Are The World.

Posted by: FiveGunsWest | Nov 30 2021 18:46 utc | 11

The 2 mRNA vaccines are worthless. They fade and have no protection after 5-6 months and have many deaths and adverse events. They wreck the immune system. In every country the vaccinated have a death rate 6 times the unvaxxed. Moon should watch a video of Dolores Cahill or Sucharit Bhakdi on bitchute. The Africans near the equator get lots of sunlight and have plenty of Vitamin D, the best defence against Covid.

Posted by: NealSpangler | Nov 30 2021 18:47 utc | 12

The West and its allies are basically being vaccinated with RNA vaccines, AZ, and J&J. The rest of the world is being vaccinated mostly by China and Russia. The thing that gets me is that Western commentators think that only the RNA vaccines can save the rest of the world, totally ignoring what the Russians and Chinese are doing. And yes, the Sputnik V vaccine will not be approved by WHO nor the EU even though evidence shows it to be extremely effective and is also being produced in mass by Indian pharma companies.

Posted by: Erelis | Nov 30 2021 18:57 utc | 13

I am not in favor of mandatory vaccine.
But the state can yes, prevent people who refused it from applying to jobs, from entering certain public places and so on.
If you re a company boss you don t prohibit anyone from smoking or using marijuana. You just block him and place him miles away from you staff.

Posted by: augusto | Nov 30 2021 19:00 utc | 14

#6: "2 jabs protect from death (if you are young and otherwise healthy)"

If you're young and healthy, you are at almost no risk from the disease in the first place. You are far more likely to die of flu than of Covid, if you are young and healthy.

Posted by: Caliman | Nov 30 2021 19:11 utc | 15

thanks b... i defer to some of the other posters comments here, including @9 les7, @10/15 caliman... thanks for that info @7 passerby...

i also agree with @8 dan lynch quote - "The West is wrong to protect vaccine patents, and it is wrong to block approval of the excellent Sputnik vaccine."

it seems to me copyright and patent laws protect rich corporations mostly... and it seems to me certain gov'ts are completely beholden to these same corporations... i wish i was wrong about that, but it's my impression... instead of serving the people, they are serving the corporations..

Posted by: james | Nov 30 2021 19:15 utc | 16

Too bad Russia has been lagging behind with vaccinations at home. Only 38% of Russians are vaccinated against COVID.
With obvious results. Posted by: Midville | Nov 30 2021 17:27 utc | 1

Mandatory vaccination is coming to Germany too. [..] tyranny [..] madness without method. Posted by: DG | Nov 30 2021 17:38 utc | 2

Do you think a draft in time of war is tyranny and a violation of human rights? Posted by: Michael Weddington | Nov 30 2021 17:53 utc | 3
----
Neither military draft nor restrictions and impositions motivated by an epidemic are inherently agains "freedom". However, taking into account the wishes of people who are affected is important, as is social cohesion.

Technocrats and bureaucrats failed people many times, trust is eroded. Putin dares social discontent among 2-5% but not among 50-65% -- stupid or wise? BTW, there is a military draft in Russia.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 30 2021 19:17 utc | 17

Why don't we call it what it is

China and Russia are offering vaccines and the West is offering drugs that don't confer protection against getting the virus and shouldn't be called vaccines

And when are we going to stop following the narrative of the day from the West and see clearly that whack-a-mole vaccines are not the way to defeat Covid and focus on treatment measures like Ivermectin and the contact tracing/isolation/support strategy of China

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 30 2021 19:21 utc | 18

Please Pay attention to the whole story.

“ This while boosters are not necessary except for people in certain risk groups. (The bodies B and T memory cells have been trained during the first and second vaccination and will produce a high number of antibodies should an infection occur.)”

That’s the biggest takeaway with regards ‘immunity’.

Let’s get it absolutely clear and b can tell me if I am wrong.

“The bodies B and T memory cells have been trained during the first and second VACCINATIONS “

Does that not apply to ACTUAL INFECTION prior to any vaccinations?
That it trains B & T cells but better than just a spike protein vaxx?
I believe it MUST do.
Any problem with that?

I have a scientific background and am certain I had it in Jan/Feb 2020 - before it was supposed to have arrived in the U.K. it was like no other flu I ever had. It laid me out for two weeks and I had symptoms for 6 more weeks.

On that basis I considered myself to have immunity and have consistently REFUSED the kind invitations of my GP telling him I may be interested in the inactivated virus Chinese Vax even though I don’t believe it would add an further immunity. He agreed and sent me for a antibody test which would have come back negative after a year anyway.

I have been in many crowded environs throughout the last 18 months including some major party evenings with hundreds of people - the worst I picked up was a cold/cough.

UNTIL - TODAY!

Having been in two such events on Friday and Saturday with lots of people outside of my usual group, on Sunday night I suddenly got a fever - just like I had 18 months ago! It is two days in and does not feel as bad as it was the first time. But still it is not fun. I will let you know if it is dispersed faster than the first time over the next few days.

I expect this is the wholly different strain to all these that have been around and I have obviously not even noticed - I hope I will be told which particular one.

So the question is - now that i am confirmed as infected in real time and will hopefully fully recover , like I did last year and my B & T cells are as good as they can possibly be.
Why should I get a vaccine or a booster or passport or any number of useless tests if I travel?

WHY??

Posted by: D.G. | Nov 30 2021 19:35 utc | 19

Les7:

So you agree that it is possible to have an emergency where people are forced to do things they don't want to do. Who is going to make this judgement call. You? A referendum? A panel of scientists? Those that are charged with the responsibility?

Posted by: Michael Weddington | Nov 30 2021 19:46 utc | 20

This seems absolutely silly to me. Africa has lots of problems, but surely Covid is not one of them, as another commenter said the amount of death is minuscule. Taking the example of Mali, in total since April 2020 they had approx 14.000 cases IN TOTAL, with almost no deaths. Mali is currently the theatre of a low-intensity war with islamic groups which are making inroads and threatening the capital, so believe me, people are not that much stressed out over SARS-COV2..

Sure, you can throw a few "long covid" (a kind of phantom illness with no clear defined symptoms)in the mix. Compared to, say, malaria, which causes hundreds of thousands per year, not sure it's a pressing issue. But hey, why bother with boring statistics, facts and figures. Covid is the second coming of the Black Plague ya know, anyone who dares suggest otherwise must be some kind of crazy flat earther.

On the other hand, I don't think they risk much from getting the Chinese or Russian vaccines which are actually vaccines, not dubious experimental therapeutic substances approved on the basis of flawed studies with unaccounted for side effects. So I guess more power to them if they get them for free, although in the grand order of things COVID should rank at the bottom of the priorities of any African government...

Posted by: Micron | Nov 30 2021 20:00 utc | 21

Why should I get a vaccine or a booster or passport or any number of useless tests if I travel?

WHY??

Posted by: D.G. | Nov 30 2021 19:35 utc | 19

I thought that your case is treated like "vaccinated", i.e. "vaccinated or recovered from COVID-19", but international travel requires to satisfy requirements of all countries that you pass.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 30 2021 20:05 utc | 22

It'll be fun listening to the Yankees tying themselves in knots to paint Chinese vaccine generosity as Eeevil and Selfish.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 30 2021 20:09 utc | 23

For comparison , in 2017 there were approximatively 550.000 deaths from malaria in sub-saharan Africa. Figures should not have changed much.

Regarding Covid, cumulative number of deaths since 2020 is 150.000 https://www.afro.who.int/health-topics/coronavirus-covid-19

Not insignificant, but dwarfed by malaria and even more by the total nomber of death causes.

Posted by: Micron | Nov 30 2021 20:09 utc | 24

Posted by: Micron | Nov 30 2021 20:00 utc | 21

"Mali is currently the theatre of a low-intensity war with islamic groups which are making inroads and threatening the capital"

Those would be "contractors" from the West. There's resources there, and ALL WARS are about resources. AFRICOM is working to keep out the Chinese and will do, just as the US did in the Middle East, deploy radical Islamists to terrorize folks so that they, the West, can insert themselves in (for then gaining control over the resources).

Posted by: Seer | Nov 30 2021 20:15 utc | 25

Michael Weddington @ 3:

Time and again people have resisted being drafted into armies to fight in wars they don't agree with (especially wars overseas) or where they believe the motives of their governments might be suspicious in calling for a draft. People did demonstrate against the draft in the US during the Vietnam War in the 1960s and there were conscientious objectors who fled to Canada and elsewhere, not to mention two future US Presidents who managed to avoid or wangle their way out of being drafted.

That might partly explain why over the past 10 years at least, the West has resorted to recruiting foot soldiers into fighting its wars in Syria through social media platforms (and casting them as ISIS so it never has to accept them back) or going into schools in socially deprived areas of its inner cities or rural backwoods to recruit rebellious teens into its armies.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 30 2021 20:19 utc | 26

Do you think a draft in time of war is tyranny and a violation of human rights?

Posted by: Michael Weddington | Nov 30 2021 17:53 utc | 3

Is this a war? Who declared it? Against whom?Why?

What’s the point of this war and which side I’m with? Where is the battlefield? Is my body the battlefield?

On whose commands should I obey? On what objective? On what premise? On what end?

Will there be an end in this war if every man, woman and child gets drafted?

Would you want to ask yourself these questions before you volunteer?

Posted by: DG | Nov 30 2021 20:23 utc | 27

I don't think there's enough data yet to identify the long-term efficacy of the various "vaccines." Given that a new variant is likely going to take over I'm thinking that a booster is more like "make work" (kinder way than saying "make money"). The one thing about mRNA is that it can be readily tweaked; I would expect that the better aim is to tweak for the Omnicron (sp?) variant.

If not for long-haul stuff I'd think that it would be better to just stop looking to vaccinate everyone and only target the vulnerable and provide the best treatment for those who do get ill. Like antibiotics, if one doesn't kill the invader completely then it can mutate into something than can avoid the antibiotics.

I don't see any real nefarious things happening other than the usual profiteers maximizing their profiting off of suffering. As long as capitalism is the ship we're traveling in then that's how it will be. Also, others WILL look to take advantage by introducing legislation that's of questionable use to the average person (but it pitched at being for their "safety").

Posted by: Seer | Nov 30 2021 20:29 utc | 28

What i wonder most, actually they just created in real their worst nightmare they was musing about last year. The asymptotic carrier is now a reality with full impact. A vaccacination to create invisible danger from people who dont fell sick anymore and stay home as they should.

Posted by: rico rose | Nov 30 2021 20:29 utc | 29

Ivermectin

Africa doesn't need them.

Thank you (ask the WHO and CDC who partnered in distributing the stuff to Uttar Pradesh as a prophylactic a whiles back).

Posted by: Ilya G Poimandres | Nov 30 2021 20:30 utc | 30

Vaccine mandates:

There is a viral disease
Where most infections are mild, asymptomatic
With a very low fatality rate
And large age gradient: kids are even lower risk than adults
And less than 1% of kids have any serious complications at all
Yup
Polio
And we vaccinate against it

Posted by: b | Nov 30 2021 20:31 utc | 31

The Iranians claim that they have vaccinated 4 million Afghanistan refugees.

Posted by: Stonebird | Nov 30 2021 20:33 utc | 32

@31

Yeah, but we don't threaten house imprisonment, job loss, concentration camps, or (yeah, laugh now - the firing line), for those that decline.

Posted by: Ilya G Poimandres | Nov 30 2021 20:34 utc | 33

This is fake news, devoid of any facts or figures. As of October, the U.S. is the number one leader in both pledged and shipped vaccine donations:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.voanews.com/amp/fact-checking-biden-s-claim-us-is-world-s-arsenal-of-vaccines-/6254063.html

Of the 1.1 billion doses the U.S. has promised, nearly 172 million have been shipped. That's almost 4x what China has shipped, and even taking into account these new numbers, 2x what China has pledged.

The U.S. has also pledged to donate 3 vaccines for every domestic vaccine administered, therefore tying domestic vaccine shots to exports, something China hasn't done. This directly addresses the author's psudo-concern for Africa.

The author of this blog spreads pro-Russian/pro-Chinese propaganda, for free. That's regrettable. Will he admit he was wrong? Don't bet on it.

Posted by: Matt | Nov 30 2021 20:53 utc | 34

b #31 -

Good point re Polio, except:

Far less than 1% of kids have serious complications from Covid ...

One shot of Polio vaccine RELIABLY eliminates the potential to develop the disease. Not true of the Corona vaccines or flu shots.

Polio vaccine is not required; it is widely accepted as good health care.

Again, don't get me wrong: if the Chinese can get a good vaccine to Africa to cover the elderly (at least), then more power to them. It's just that focusing on clean water and malaria eradication would be a better healthcare outcome for Africa.

Posted by: Caliman | Nov 30 2021 21:02 utc | 35

Seer@28

"As long as capitalism is the ship we're traveling in then that's how it will be."

I like this and am going to appropriate it.

At the end of the day concerning any social ill in the us this is what it boils down to. I have been saying this for 20 years, but not as eloquently and succinctly as you just did.

Bravo.

Posted by: David F | Nov 30 2021 21:07 utc | 36

Do you think a draft in time of war is tyranny and a violation of human rights?
Posted by: Michael Weddington | Nov 30 2021 17:53 utc | 3

The answer is YES. Without an act of Congress authorizing a draft and ratified by the president it is blatantly illegal and so are Biden's mandates. So sorry.

Posted by: mudd | Nov 30 2021 21:10 utc | 37

Vaccine mandates:

There is a viral disease
Where most infections are mild, asymptomatic
With a very low fatality rate
And large age gradient: kids are even lower risk than adults
And less than 1% of kids have any serious complications at all
Yup
Polio
And we vaccinate against it

Posted by: b | Nov 30 2021 20:31 utc | 31

With a live virus that spread polio. OOPS. But "The Science" lied about Ivermectin and many died.

MNRA gene therapy is many times more dangerous than the most dangerous vaccine, smallpox with a kill rate that is may times more dangerous than the number of people it "saves". It all comes down to another medical scam, a transfer of public funds to private big pharma pockets.

I expected, naively my government to protect its citizens, not the bank account of big pharma.

Posted by: Tom | Nov 30 2021 21:19 utc | 38

Re:polio vaccine

wiki

In a generic sense, vaccination works by priming the immune system with an 'immunogen'. Stimulating immune response, by use of an infectious agent, is known as immunization. The development of immunity to polio efficiently blocks person-to-person transmission of wild poliovirus, thereby protecting both individual vaccine recipients and the wider community

The first effective polio vaccine was developed in 1952 by Jonas Salk and a team at the University of Pittsburgh …

In April 1955, soon after mass polio vaccination began in the US, the Surgeon General began to receive reports of patients who contracted paralytic polio about a week after being vaccinated with Salk polio vaccine …

An enhanced-potency IPV was licensed in the United States in November 1987, and is currently the vaccine of choice there …

Polio was eliminated in the Americas by 1994.

Yes

Polio

And we vaccinate against it

Posted by: DG | Nov 30 2021 21:24 utc | 39

@20 Michael

Since we all live in a some form of community, we all accept some measure of infringement on personal rights and freedom for the supposed sake of community and well-being.

How much infringement and how much well-being is produced is a matter for debate, such as happens here.

We also have - as Jen points out, the right and perhaps obligation to protest when the powers that be over-reach and abuse the powers they were granted for community well-being, instead creating massive amounts of injury, death, privation all while grossly enriching themselves.

This was never about protecting people.

Posted by: Les7 | Nov 30 2021 21:24 utc | 40

I am not a scientist, but I have read that the polio vaccine was developed over several decades.

One of our benevolent overlord oligarchs, Bill Gates, is responsible for recent vaccine caused outbreaks of the disease in Africa.

Joaquin Flores - WHO polio article

At least from what I have read, Sinovac is a normal vaccine as opposed to the mRNA stuff. But, as I said, I am not a scientist.

Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 30 2021 21:27 utc | 41

@21 et al. Agree with "Africa has a lot of problems, but CoVid ist't one of them".

However, the Chinese vaccines are useful to defend against WHO, GAVIN & Co. Governments can much easier say - listen, we are believers, but we don't have much money and now we have all the ppl vaccinated with the Chinese stuff. So we don't need yours.

The dangers are there. Tanzania's Magufuli died strangely enough (not that obvious as Lumumba). Lukashenko got a colour revolution (attempt) and murder (attempt). Openly not playing the correct melody is dangerous.

Regards

Posted by: BG13 | Nov 30 2021 21:31 utc | 42

Numbers of vaccines is not the real issue of the announcement by China.

They are offering to transfer technology so that these 40 African countries can care for themselves and not have to beg the empire.

As the petrodollar dies and we are being moved into the world of the pharmadollar, what China just announced is as subversive as the US recognizing Taiwan as a separate state

Posted by: Les7 | Nov 30 2021 21:37 utc | 43

Posted by: Les7 | Nov 30 2021 18:29 utc | 9

Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice, shame on me.

Reminds me of the Dubya gaffe: "They have a saying here in Tennessee, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice... fool me... won't get fooled again."

Ineptitude followed by a good recovery courtesy of The Who.

Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 30 2021 21:46 utc | 44

Posted by: Michael Weddington | Nov 30 2021 19:46 utc | 20

Channelling Carl Schmitt. Sovereignty is located in the one who can declare a state of exception.

The Roman Republic was very sophisticated in the formulation of this because they could seamlessly intertwine law, religion and their notion of the political community. They wouldn't understand how or why your question could even arise.

Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 30 2021 21:51 utc | 45

@44 Patroklos LOL!!

Ineptitude followed by a good recovery courtesy of The Who.

Oh if only..!!

Posted by: Les7 | Nov 30 2021 21:53 utc | 46

Personal rights are a fiction if the state is the instrument of their guarantee. If the political community is threatened by the dissidence of one individual who proclaims that their rights supersede that of the community as a whole then that individual must be excised as a tyrant. Since personal rights are guaranteed by membership of a political community then from time to time individuals have responsibilities to that community even to the point of laying down their personal claims to rights. This is done to protect the very entity that makes those right possible.

Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 30 2021 21:59 utc | 47

@b

I am surprised and somewhat disappointed in your stance on this so-called pandemic and a so-called vaccine made by the western countries that doesn’t deliver on any promises of what a vaccine should do. If anything, the vaccine (western made) is now the problem, not the disease.

There is ample scientific evidence out there that refutes the big pharma claims of what their vaccine is about. And there is even more scientific studies showing other modalities of treatment that are far more effective with little to no side effects. Yet they are suppressed and outright banned. Doesn’t that strike you as strange?

Please read RFK, Jr’s new book. It blows the lid off of this whole charade we are living in now. Maybe you can even do a critical review.

But by condoning these vaccines and the narrative, you are approving all the other draconian and tyrannical measures, including mandates and health pass. I can’t fathom that you of all people would go along with this circus. I expect a lot more from you.

You were wrong in 2019 with your assessment of the disease and you are still wrong with your stance on this issue, given the vast amount of information that has come out since then. This can’t be a world that you could possibly enjoy living in.

Posted by: Alpi | Nov 30 2021 22:00 utc | 48

IMO BG13 and Les7 have it right.

China gets to the African “market” before the Western pirates can get too much of their poison circulating there.

It’s a double win “Humanitarian/Political” (appearances) as well as deeply Political (helping the Resistance).

Posted by: Featherless | Nov 30 2021 22:21 utc | 49

About the whole Covid “as a scam”.

It took me a while to figure out : Is it the virus or the vaccine that is dangerous ?

But then, looking at political history, in a few examples, I noticed a trend of using Dialectics as a kind of “Pincer Movement”.

In this case, the virus creates the need for a vaccine. Then, leaky vaccines, by creating variants, feedback the virus, which then requires more vaccines. A vicious circle, whose consequences are sick and dead people, and profits for the organizers. Dialectic Pincer Movement.

Posted by: Featherless | Nov 30 2021 22:29 utc | 50

b, thanks for covering this!

As I brought up in yesterday's comment thread, will our Western establishment media report on China providing another billion doses of vaccine?

On the Canadian TV news that I watch, there was zero reporting of this news yesterday or so far today.

My guess is that this significant news will continue to be black-holed and censored out by our "news" outlets, including when they talk with ostensible concern about vaccine equity and variants coming from Africa and India. So much for our "free press". No wonder trust in the media is so low in the West.

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Nov 30 2021 22:36 utc | 51

‘ I thought that your case is treated like "vaccinated", i.e. "vaccinated or recovered from COVID-19", but international travel requires to satisfy requirements of all countries that you pass.
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 30 2021 20:05 utc | 22 ‘

But I seems that such confirmed from full infections are not part of countries internally or externally. It is illogical.
————
When China hands out the billion vaccines to Africa and other southern poor do they require that everyone is logged and id’d ?

———-
Posted by: b | Nov 30 2021 20:31 utc | 31

Agree one hundred percent about the Polio vaccine (and others) especially made from deactivated viruses.

The efficacy of polio vaccines is almost 100% after 4 doses generally given in childhood.

No one could possibly quibble with that. We all had it as children - no one has asked me to prove it in the following 50 years! I have seen what long term damage Polio does.

Posted by: D.G. | Nov 30 2021 22:46 utc | 52

This is fake news, devoid of any facts or figures. As of October, the U.S. is the number one leader in both pledged and shipped vaccine donations:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.voanews.com/amp/fact-checking-biden-s-claim-us-is-world-s-arsenal-of-vaccines-/6254063.html

Of the 1.1 billion doses the U.S. has promised, nearly 172 million have been shipped. That's almost 4x what China has shipped, and even taking into account these new numbers, 2x what China has pledged.

The U.S. has also pledged to donate 3 vaccines for every domestic vaccine administered, therefore tying domestic vaccine shots to exports, something China hasn't done. This directly addresses the author's psudo-concern for Africa.

The author of this blog spreads pro-Russian/pro-Chinese propaganda, for free. That's regrettable. Will he admit he was wrong? Don't bet on it.

Posted by: Matt | Nov 30 2021 22:47 utc | 53

#47 - "Personal rights are a fiction if the state is the instrument of their guarantee."

But that is not the case. In fact, there's a whole school of natural rights where our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is natural to us (from God or from our status as humans).

In other words, the rights are not from government; rather, the only role for government is to protect each person's rights if there are conflicts with others. Your right to individual bodily autonomy including what medicines and substances you allow into your body are natural rights, not given to you by the government.

Posted by: Caliman | Nov 30 2021 22:48 utc | 54

Did #34, repeated at #53, really reference "Voice of America" as their source of news? I'll consider those claims when they're backed by far more credible sources.

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Nov 30 2021 22:52 utc | 55

Buenos Aires Ministry of Health:
Number of Sputnik V doses administered: 2.8 million
Number of deaths associated with Sputnik V: 0

Posted by: nwwoods | Nov 30 2021 22:59 utc | 56

What neither Matt at 53, or the Voice of America can deny is that the United States and its allies are leading the scandalous campaign to protect the Big Pharma profiteers in human misery by maintaining their patents. It would be an easy and massively popular policy to waive all patent protections and assist in establishing production facilities around the world.
The cost of protecting Big Pharma in this matter is the constant evolution of the virus and the probability that more deadly and infectious variants will arise.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 30 2021 23:06 utc | 57

At 50 billion a Q, 200 billion a year the PCR proprietors aren't doing too bad either

Posted by: Les7 | Nov 30 2021 23:13 utc | 58

Did #55 just attack the source, without being able to find fault with the content?

I'll take them seriously when they realize the "source" of information is the Duke Global Health Innovation Center. If #55 had read the article I linked, they would have noticed this.

But attacking the source, which is a fallacy, is a common tactic used by those who are dishonest and don't have a proper rebuttal.

Sad to see a fellow Canadian behave in such a disingenuous manner.

Posted by: Matt | Nov 30 2021 23:16 utc | 59

When will the author of this anti-American hitpiece retract his claims?

https://launchandscalefaster.org/covid-19/vaccinedonations

Posted by: Matt | Nov 30 2021 23:20 utc | 60

Is difficult to impossible for the Modi regime propaganda apparatus misinformed people in India to realise how much actual and massive goodwill China has and is earning in the world, from Russia to Africa. To them, China is simultaneously "bankrupt" and "aggressive", Chinese weapons are "threatening" and yet "do not work", the BRI is simultaneously "failing" and a "threat to the world" (this last at the UN, no less), and China's incredibly successful space programme might as well not exist. One can be certain that if Modiganda channels like WION ever mention the vaccine donations they'll only do so after packaging then in lies to make China look bad.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Nov 30 2021 23:29 utc | 61

@60 Matt

With all due respect, #'s of vaccines donated is all about creating clientele states.

China is offering (Russia did the same a year ago) technology transfer. Not a single western country has made a similar offer.

Canada used to have an independent pharmaceutical industry. Mulroney traded it away and now Canadians are just as dependent as any African state.

But at least they have the option of Russian and Chinese vaccines.

Posted by: Les7 | Nov 30 2021 23:37 utc | 62

B - 31

Polio, exactly, as you said.
And same for measles actually. Same for mumps. Same for chickenpox. Same for rubella. Same for whooping cough. Heck even hepatitis A and B have less than 1% death ratio.
Basically, the bulk of the vaccines usually used across the West are mostly insurances against low-risk disease, specially now that smallpox has been wipied out.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Nov 30 2021 23:40 utc | 63

The unvaccinated are the new Untermenschen. The debauchers of the nation's health.

The final solution: "Impfung Macht Frei"

Posted by: Lurk | Nov 30 2021 23:44 utc | 64

@62 Les7

That's a different topic altogether, even if it's a reasonable criticism of the U.S.

The author of this article, however, didn't mention technology transfer, and criticized the U.S. for not pledging and donating enough vaccines. I proved that this is a lie, and that the U.S. is #1 in pledged and donated vaccines.

Another thing to note is that transferring technology to a country doesn't mean they can produce enough vaccines on their own. I strongly suspect that even after taking into account vaccines creates under tech-transfers, the U.S. will still have exported far more vaccines in total.

And in the end, that's all that matters: the number of lives saves by vaccines.

Posted by: Matt | Nov 30 2021 23:53 utc | 65

@63 Clueless

All vaccines you mentioned were on approved after rigorous testing, accurate stats were kept and when, like swine flu from 10 years back 250 people were hospitalized with reactions, after 25 million doses, it was pulled.

Today we have a three month, botched test, experimental ( you & me are the rat on the trial) authorization with over 2 million recorded complications.

Don't be so naive as to conflate those processes. Don't be so obtuse so as to present the present scam as acceptable when by every previous measure of safety it is gross misconduct.

Dozens have presented credible scientific evidence on this site. Try reading it

Posted by: Les7 | Nov 30 2021 23:59 utc | 66

From the DarkWeb + Alt Bloggers, SinoVaxx are more complete than Spike Protein Only Western Vaxx.

Natural Immunity is better than Western Vaxx.

Western SARS-COV2 Vaxx actually weaken the Immune Response of Recipients against All Past, Present, and Future Variants of SARS-COV2.

Ivermectin is doing a Great Deal against SARS-COV2 in Africa where utilized for Parasite Prophylaxis. COVID19 Case Numbers are relatively Lower.

Posted by: IronForge | Dec 1 2021 0:02 utc | 67

Matt #53 - it’s clear you think you have found a “gotcha” moment which permits directing a series of insulting terms towards this blog’s host, but in your evident haste to establish your superiority you have overlooked that the source for b’s figures was the United Press article from which he quotes: “By Nov. 12, 2021, China had provided over 1.7 billion doses of COVID-19 vaccines to more than 110 countries and organizations…” So your issue really lies in a discrepancy sourced elsewhere, and perhaps your energies are better served by tracking that down rather than self-righteously blathering here.

Posted by: jayc | Dec 1 2021 0:35 utc | 68

Thanks to Pepe Escobar for the following hat-tip: "RFK Jr and his publisher authorized the Unz Review to republish the introduction to the book on Fauci - still number 1 on Amazon and completely ignored by US MSM."

Intorduction to RFK Jr's book Here's a truism seldom remarked upon by people:

"The first step is to give up the illusion that the primary purpose of modern medical research is to improve Americans’ health most effectively and efficiently. In our opinion, the primary purpose of commercially funded clinical research is to maximize financial return on investment, not health.

—John Abramson, M.D., Harvard Medical School"

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 1 2021 0:36 utc | 69

@ Posted by: Matt | Nov 30 2021 23:53 utc | 65

To your quote: And in the end, that's all that matters: the number of lives saves by vaccines.

Problem is, the hyper focus you have on donations ain't going to do it. Not by as long shot. According to State Dept. and Kaiser, the US has shipped 240 million donated doses. From the VOA article you cite:

If we're going to be the arsenal of vaccines, we actually have to export vaccines, not just donate them once in a while," said Udayakumar of the Duke Global Health Innovation Center. Separate from the doses donated by the administration, American vaccine producers have exported 161 million doses for sale, far below China (1.1 billion) (article from Oct.)

In effect, the US has made available through donation or sale approximately 400 million does of a two shot vaccine. During this time, China has made available through donation or sale 1.6 BILLION doses (see B's quotes above). Countries are supposed to wait until a freebee is handed to them or until the exports go up dramatically from the US??

In effect, the Chinese in particular have way exceeded making a vaccine available while rich Western countries took up all the surplus supplies. The article is about China making available through donation or sale over a billion doses to just one continent. Can the US match that for just one continent?

As for transferring vaccine manufacturing technology the Sputnik V people have successfully done that with numerous companies from India to Argentina.

Given the ever waning potency of the mRNA vaccines and their under reported side effects, I would not be surprised if countries would prefer the Chinese or Russian vaccines.

Posted by: Erelis | Dec 1 2021 0:50 utc | 70

The reason Biden is pushing booster shots is that the first two don't last.
The whole "reassess your hypothesis" part of science is being ignored, in favor of "If at first you don't succeed, try again".
Kind of like Lucy and the football enticing Charlie Brown.

Posted by: wagelaborer | Dec 1 2021 0:54 utc | 71

Yet RFK Jr. isn't telling the whole truth as he describes the Outlaw US Empire as a "liberal democracy." Hard to tell the truth when writing for that audience.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 1 2021 1:09 utc | 72

@ Matt | Nov 30 2021 22:47 utc | 53... voa spreads misinformation on a regular basis... using it as a reference isn't exactly going to excite anyone here to even bother reading it... on the other hand, you could try another cia front media outlet that is less obvious.. it might be able to pass by the radar most here have for bullshit..

Posted by: james | Dec 1 2021 1:09 utc | 73

All this OT chatter about drafting people...F it, I'm going for it...With Pepe, Max Blumenthal, and Ben Norton.... General Cosplay Killmore delivers remarks...

https://fivegunswest.blogspot.com/2021/11/war-pigs-party-down-drunken-nato.html

Posted by: FiveGunsWest | Dec 1 2021 1:10 utc | 74

@NealSpangler (12) What you claim is complete and total crap. You are either the world’s most misinformed person or a deliberate spreader of falsehoods. I’m surprised that b has not deleted your post and possibly even banned you from the website.

Posted by: Rob | Dec 1 2021 1:14 utc | 75

It sure didn't take long for Matt the "Venezuelan student" or whatever other Latin American disguise he has to turn up after B got rid of the Brazilian troll.

Posted by: Jen | Dec 1 2021 1:25 utc | 76

Gulo @4

yes exactly. My big question regarding China and Russia's race to promote the covid "fraud" is why?

Africa is doing fine without Vaccines and without Western propaganda media. it seems that in other areas, Africans are rising up against western interference as well.

I am positively disposed to China but what is China trying to do to Africa?

Posted by: K | Dec 1 2021 1:32 utc | 77

Regarding the comparison between earlier vaccines and the current ones.

Doctors tell us that when a new vaccine appears, as few as 20-50 deaths - in the entire world - that seem attributable to the new vaccine, are enough to shut down the entire rollout/trial and withdraw the product from use.

I wonder if that's worth emphasizing: as few as 20-50 deaths...shut down the entire rollout/trial

In this light, we have to notice that the VAERS and the Yellow Card reporting systems of the USA and the UK show thousands of deaths that are attributable to the western mRNA products.

Thousands of deaths. I'll spare the emphasis - one either grasps this point or one doesn't.

~~

So what we should be comparing in reality is the state of western medicine some 20-50 years ago compared to now, in terms of regulatory capture and the sponsorship (corruption) by corporate money of public bodies.

This is where the real discussion and epiphanies have been occurring. One only has to listen to the doctors at the forefront of presenting these facts, to see how greatly their own minds have been blown by the discovery of the sheer extent of the corruption in western healthcare, science and medicine.

And as we listen, we get detailed illustrations of how these processes have occurred over the decades. Thus, we see how we're dealing with a greatly degraded system - very much different now from the one we first established our basis of trust in.

~~

This is the real story, when comparing earlier medical events to today's events. We compare, not to suggest an equivalence between then and now, but to see the discrepancy between now and then.

Obstructing a story of systems corruption by citing narratives generated by those corrupt systems is not going to advance anyone's knowledge. Holding those narratives up to the light to show the multiple holes in them is what we would like to see.

It's what millions of people in the last two years have had to do. And changing our sources of information and narrative - and adjusting our trust in those sources - has become part of the necessary action that flows from this epiphany.

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 1 2021 1:33 utc | 78

@ Jen | Dec 1 2021 1:25 utc | 76... i was thinking about our conversation from a few days ago... very good jen!

Posted by: james | Dec 1 2021 1:42 utc | 79

Well props to the PRC for these donations, let's hope there is an equitable program for distributing them as if corporate media find a hint of preference in the vax distribution eg African nations which support the one China policy get China donated vaccines but those still in a relationship with Taiwan do not, that will be splashed across planet as China 'bribing' Africa, even tho to my knowledge there has not been a single amerikan, englander or Australian aid deal that ignores a recipient nation's foreign policy or doesn't have conditions favourable to the 'donor' nation's economy.
For the likes of aukus the carrot and stick approach means taking a large carrot then using a stick to force the carrot so far up the other nation's arse that you can see a wedge of bright orange poking out from under citizens' left eyeball.
Of course pointing out that the strings attached to amerika's donations are far more hideous only results in accusations of whataboutery.

One more thing, those who choose to opt out of the vax don't come across as too libertarian when they object to the population of Africa having the right to access the vaccine if they so choose, just as those wanting to travel overseas objecting to whatever conditions the nation they want to visit chooses to make sound just like the pains who visit an Islamic country then carry on like spoilt kiddies when they cannot access any alcohol. People who travel to experience other cultures & then object when some aspect of the culture is inconvenient to them come across as ungrateful hypocrites pure & simple.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Dec 1 2021 2:10 utc | 80

I heard pervy Joe Biden* walked on Hunter and his friends "self-vaccinating" and admired their spirit, saying "This is the kind of spirit America needs to overcome the pLandemic."

If anyone watched Dr. Felchers' buddy, Joe Biden* wish the American people a Happy Thanksgiving, old Joe looked like a child being forced to apologize to someone for stealing a toy. When Biden* announced the new "omNicron" variant it was like he was selling a new car! I have never seen that gibbering empty suit every smile until this and he continued the same old BS....jab, jab, jab. Nothing about 200k wouldn't have died had we actually had any health care. Nothing about Vitamin D. Nothing about any preventative measures. Nothing about any cost-effective preventative drugs. This is all BS.

That 5 Guns West Thing is pretty funny, dude.

Posted by: Jimmy Flies By | Dec 1 2021 2:20 utc | 81

@james

The spooky CIA isn't hiding in your closet all the time. I gave a source from Duke, the same source referenced by VOA. You have no rebuttal, so you go around whining about the CIA. Get a grip. Oh, and VOA is far better than the Russian state media that you believe, guillible as you are.

@Jen

I am not Venezuelan or Brazilian, nor have I ever claimed to be. Perhaps you have me confused for another Matt, as it's a common name. I suppose you don't have a rebuttal to what I said about this blogpost either, hence the ad hominem :)

Posted by: Matt | Dec 1 2021 2:22 utc | 82

@78 more...

Thinking a little more about the discrepancy between the healthcare of today and of yesterday, I realize of course that we had much more socialized societies and political economy in the west than today.

It's not a new thought - plenty of people have said this in plenty of ways, that the pathetic official responses to the pandemic in the west are simply part of the overall degradation of the west.

So to compare the west of today with its former self cannot produce an equivalence - if we want to compare the western achievements of the past, we have to compare them with other countries today.

So, for example, the west has produced experimental solutions to the virus that would never have passed the safety screenings of earlier times - or the current safety screenings of other countries. Meanwhile countries such as China, Russia and Cuba have produced vaccines based on traditional methods and that undoubtedly would have passed the safety screenings of the west of an earlier age.

~~

It may be that we cannot think - or even see clearly - about the pandemic except through the lens of a society's level of care for its populace.

In the next open thread I want to summarize an article that I highly recommend. The new commenter Black bread offered it (#16) in a recent thread:

A Self-Fulfilling Prophecy: Systemic Collapse and Pandemic Simulation - Fabio Vighi [August 2021]

I finally read it yesterday and I'm still thinking about it. It approaches the pandemic from a global finance view that I find compelling. psychohistorian if you see this you may want to look at it.

Anyway, more later.

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 1 2021 2:24 utc | 83

@ matt... others are much quicker and smarter then i! they have put you on ignore and i will do the same here forward... you've cluttered the board with links to voa.. if you posted another link further down - it is too late!! cheers... and yes - please do get a grip, lol..

Posted by: james | Dec 1 2021 2:47 utc | 84

"it seems to me copyright and patent laws protect rich corporations mostly... and it seems to me certain gov'ts are completely beholden to these same corporations... i wish i was wrong about that, but it's my impression... instead of serving the people, they are serving the corporations"..

Posted by: james | Nov 30 2021 19:15 utc | 16

james, you're NOT wrong!!! your impression is reality....

Posted by: vetinLA | Dec 1 2021 2:47 utc | 85

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Nov 30 2021 23:29 utc | 61

Bill, this is the very definition of “RUSSOPHRENIA” transferred to the Chinese. Predictable.

Posted by: Featherless | Dec 1 2021 2:52 utc | 86

@james

Ah OK, so you choose to ignore the fact that I linked to a Duke-based website, that's been tracking vaccine donations. I posted one link to VOA, so it's clear you're trolling when claiming I've "cluttered" the board with such links.

In the end, "james", I caught you lying several times :)

Posted by: Matt | Dec 1 2021 2:55 utc | 87

Erelis @70 makes an excellent point. China has made available to the other countries of the world around 4 times more doses of vaccine than the US has.

According to a BBC article from early October, almost half of the world's COVID vaccine production has come from China, and China also accounts for about half the vaccines made available to other countries.

"Research by Airfinity forecasts that by December, a total of 12.2 billion doses will have been produced around the world - 5.7 billion of these Chinese vaccines and the rest non-Chinese."

"The data analytics company, Airfinity, has tracked global production, and estimates that China has exported commercially 1.1 billion doses (as of 8 October) of its vaccines to 123 countries (as either bulk substances or finished doses)."

And that export estimate "pretty much matches the combined estimates of others outside China (1.138 billion)."

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Dec 1 2021 2:57 utc | 88

Posted by: Caliman | Nov 30 2021 22:48 utc | 54

"... a whole school of natural rights where our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is natural to us (from God or from our status as humans)"

A happy theology which is not replicated in practice. What is this 'nature' in any case? This theology ('from God' or some abstract universal 'human') is no more than the hypostasis of a bourgeois standpoint. It discloses its origins as soon as those millions daily deprived of these 'natural rights' come to collect. Then, all of a sudden, some are more human than others...

Let's leave God and other such abstractions to children. We adults must concern ourselves with the material conditions which produce power relations and hierarchies of domination. With a slight change in the balance one finds oneself adrift like Odysseus on his raft. When you are alone in the wilderness the world is quite unreceptive to your appeals to human rights as indeed are the privateers who sell you across the sea.

If individuals have rights within a political community then it is because that community acts collectively to guarantee them, usually by the projection of force (the city has its origins in the guild of warriors as Max Weber said). One's loyalty is therefore not to God, oneself, or to some abstract species identity, but to the fellow citizens who have your back as you have theirs.

Posted by: Patroklos | Dec 1 2021 3:05 utc | 89

It’s interesting that we’re getting extra visitors all of a sudden. That usually means the “press” is getting too uncomfortably close to uncomfortable truths.

As well as the ones already hanging around...

Posted by: Featherless | Dec 1 2021 3:27 utc | 90

Does anyone still remember the 1970s "neutron bomb" which kills living beings but preserve infrastructure? "Conspirationist" similarities?

Posted by: nietzsche1510 | Dec 1 2021 3:40 utc | 91

I bet Matt’s cubicle mate on each side is busy “debunking” RFK jr’s new book.

And those two douchebags I mentioned previously are Clueless Joe and m.

Obvious plants are obvious.

Posted by: Featherless | Dec 1 2021 3:52 utc | 92

@ Grieved | Dec 1 2021 2:24 utc | 83 with the A Self-Fulfilling Prophecy: Systemic Collapse and Pandemic Simulation - Fabio Vighi [August 2021] link

Thanks, I read it and concur...follow the money.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 1 2021 4:25 utc | 93

Patrokolos #89: "If individuals have rights within a political community then it is because that community acts collectively to guarantee them, usually by the projection of force (the city has its origins in the guild of warriors as Max Weber said). One's loyalty is therefore not to God, oneself, or to some abstract species identity, but to the fellow citizens who have your back as you have theirs."

This is, of course, true. But I did not speak of "loyalty" and I do think it makes a difference if the community of individuals who will be acting collectively through their government believe its authority is limited, depends on the repeated consent of the governed, and that there's a finite limit to its powers, limited by a set of natural rights they have agreed to bestow on each other. In other words, if most of us agree to believe we have these natural rights, that makes them real and then it's harder for a government to attempt to take them away from us.

At least, that's the world I'd like to live in :)

Posted by: Caliman | Dec 1 2021 4:42 utc | 94

Caliman, something that was interesting to learn, for me, was :

That “democracy” is not just about voting, but REPRESENTATIVE democracy is all about representation in POLICY.

What was particularly encouraging was to hear about how in China, the govt is constantly doing surveys to get the pulse of the people, to integrate into their calculus the feedback of what is working, as well as what is still problematic.

Now I can’t say that I know how things are over there, but, given how we know the difficulty of how to decide for the best for society (aristocracy, classical greek democracy, etc.) in an equitable way, at least in theory, the Chinese system sounds pretty good.

And also yes, I agree with the idea of “team spirit”.

Posted by: Featherless | Dec 1 2021 4:54 utc | 95

By the same token, apparently the Chinese people overwhelmingly have faith in their govt.

As opposed to many places, where the people acknowledge that their govts are hopelessly corrupt and NOT representative of the people.

Posted by: Featherless | Dec 1 2021 4:58 utc | 96

Regarding personal freedom.

For me, #1 is “do no harm”. #2 “do as ye will”.

When the people around us know us and are familiar with our “way”, when they’re not psychotic/neurotic, they’ll let us be.

Still, “discretion is the better part of valour”.

I jaywalk plenty, but I always look both ways twice first.

Posted by: Featherless | Dec 1 2021 5:20 utc | 97

Hi everyone,
Quite an interesting conversation going on here! I just wanted to share that my copy of States of Emergency - Keeping the Global Population in Check by the esteemed author and academician, Kees van der Pijl, arrived at my mailbox. I have only read the intro, but it seems like a real bombshell dropped on the whole discourse regarding Covid 19.
Here is a link to the book.

States of Emergency

Everyone here is supersmart, so I know many of you are familiar with him. Professor van der Pijl has written several extremely important books about the current state of affairs, as well as the old ones. Some are way beyond my reach, but I have learned a lot from him. Especially his book on MH 17.

States of Emergency is about the 'rona and its impact on society both in terms of economics and power. At least that's my take from my read of the intro.

Grieved @83 - A Self-Fulfilling Prophecy: Systemic Collapse and Pandemic Simulation - Fabio Vighi [August 2021]
Thank you.
Anyways, there are lots of ways to look at this mess. I am glad that we are provided with a forum to discuss them.
Thank you b and the MoA Crew.


Posted by: lex talionis | Dec 1 2021 5:25 utc | 98

Hi Lex, I’m glad you’re feeling better ;1

Please keep us posted with your synopsis of the Der Pijl book !

Posted by: Featherless | Dec 1 2021 5:34 utc | 99

@ 84 james - I dedicate this to Matt.

Stranglers - Get a Grip on Yourself

Posted by: lex talionis | Dec 1 2021 5:41 utc | 100

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