Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 21, 2021

The MoA Week In Review - OT 2021-090

Last week's posts at Moon of Alabama:

Other issues:

Criminal Interference Agency:

Guaido is finished:


Alastair Crooke triplet:


Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on November 21, 2021 at 14:12 UTC | Permalink

« previous page | next page »

Banning, book burning, censorship, and so on, are never for reasons stated, nor are they solutions to problems.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Nov 23 2021 12:54 utc | 301

IMO the Rittenhouse case has been brought into discussion to cover what is really going on about the impossition of apartheid states around the globe and the obvious wave of sick vaccinated people being blamed on the unvaccinated by the officials who are the real responsdible of all this.

Instead of backpedaling, in front of the growing numbers of people in the streets awakening to reality, they give a step forward to nowhere each time they see themselves corraled by evidence and facts and what will be increasing refusal to increasing doses of a product whose goal, it has been already proved, is not stopping the spread of Covid-19, whatever that syndrome is in the first place...

People in Australia are being brought by the army to "Quarantine camps" as I talk in front of the harsh resistance Australina people are possing, starting with the aboriginal communities there...

The sooner everybody awakes to the fact we all who at a time will not submit will end there at certain point, the better...

Posted by: Black bread | Nov 23 2021 13:16 utc | 302

Posted by: Black bread | Nov 23 2021 13:16 utc | 302

I agree. US media are silent about European Violent demonstration underway.

Posted by: Lucci | Nov 23 2021 13:18 utc | 303

Phoney Tony found deeply embedded in the pandemic as well. Surely government policies can't be based on dodgy dossiers. Can they?

Tim Hayward
A chilling admission.

So who are these unelected teams of people “embedded in governments around the world” that undermine the possibility of democratic accountability for momentous decisions that affect us all? How can we remove them?

Tony Blair Institute
· 9 mei 2020
Our teams are now embedded in governments around the world, helping them to keep their people safe during this pandemic - not just in respect of Covid-19 itself but also the political and economic collateral damage.

Watch Tony Blair's update on our response to #COVID19

Posted by: Lurk | Nov 23 2021 13:34 utc | 304

A link provides info. Lists of links, like b’s weekly posts, provide more info. Posting links for commercial purposes is unwelcome spam. vk’s links weren’t commercial. Referring to them as “spam” isn’t accurate.

Posted by: son of spam | Nov 23 2021 13:43 utc | 305

@Posted by: Lucci | Nov 23 2021 13:18 utc | 303

The demonstrations are mainlky peaceful, turned violent only by a tiny group of youngsteras following the same pattern as everywhere else. from the US to Iran.... Dressing in blac kwith black hoods and balaclavas with masks with teeth pictured on ...There is even a video where the handler, a strong man in his fourties or so, is visible controlling the group....

This is your new Gladio in action to demonize the righteous protests.

The most crowded demonstrations are taking place in Australia and Austria has seen for two days in a round the hgest demonstrations in its whole history...Such a conservative society...

Posted by: Black bread | Nov 23 2021 14:08 utc | 306

@JustAnotherAussie #193
You are an idiot.

I am not pro-violence in any way, nor am I a gun nut. I have shot and know how to shoot guns, but I don't own any.

I am, however, someone who respects the law.
The promulgaters of violence in the United States in general are criminals and anarchists, followed by "going postal" incidents both adult and children - crimes of passion.

In every case, laws are broken in order to do so.

This naive tunnel vision on guns is ridiculous - a gun is a tool, just as a car is a tool. Both can and have been used to kill people.

If, in fact, any society deems guns to be undesirable in the hands of the population - said society should pass and enforce laws to dictate this to said population.

In the United States, guns are legal.

Live with it or change the law - in the meantime, fuck off with idiotic posturing.

In Brazil, guns are illegal. There are 60,000+ homicides a year - most due to shootings. Clearly a ban on guns doesn't mean jack shit with regards to curbing violence.

I furthermore have zero patience or respect for people who cannot understand the difference between a legal tool that can be misused vs. violence that erupts due to human causes and interests.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 14:22 utc | 307

@Stonebird #207
I have zero concerns about a Davos "revolution" - I consider that to be a color revolution a la Guiado, i.e. meaningless and unsuccessful.
Nor am I particularly impressed with the idea of a "citizen's revolution".
A Revolution is just that: a complete destruction of existing order resulting in a descent into chaos from which a new order arises.
This new order isn't going to be based on reason - it is going to be based on who has the most soldiers/hearts and minds devoted to utmost exertion including ultimate sacrifices. It isn't going to be pretty for anyone.
That's why the morons in the US oligarchy today are playing with fire - they think they can control what happens in a revolution (a Davos one as you term it).
This is entirely because they live in completely different worlds than the rest of us.
They tweet, we talk.
They "work", we do.
And when they want "revolution" - they're going to get it good and hard. Not because of anything I or any other individual does or says or wants, but because once the masks and gloves are off - a whole lot of anger and resentment is going to erupt and those in charge are going to get the brunt of it.
FDR and his confederates understood this - which is why he turned against the budding oligarchy of that era, but the entire US upmost class today shows zero evidence of such understanding. This "let them eat cake" bullshit is why the Revolution possibility keeps growing.
Nor is the Revolution inevitable. Central and South America have shown how 100+ years of societal oppression can be made to stick. However, their oppression was one of retarded progress due to the leeches on those societies. Americans still remember when times were different, so there is a window of 20-30 years - before those Americans all die of old age - where there is maximum risk.
Either way, it won't be my problem. I've long since built a fallback position.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 14:34 utc | 308

@Black bread Hello, this is in response to your post from a few weeks ago. During the Valdai Club Q&A session with Mr Putin, a Lady asked for Russian assistance with regards to satellite images of the port at Beirut.
Those images have now been supplied to the Lebanese. Raghida Dergham had her request fulfilled.

Posted by: boon | Nov 23 2021 14:49 utc | 309

@Tom Pfotzer #215

It is clear we have significantly divergent views, but that's life

Responding to your response:

Tom: The fact that Bosphorus is essential for free trade thru Black sea is obvious to all. The question I posed is "does Russia care about military ship embargo". My assertion is that it may not be all that big a deal:

a. It's been threatened before, never came to be. (2015).
b. Naval surface warfare involving Russia happened last...when? 1945? Been a while. I'm trying to recall an instance...
c. Combat in that area, should it happen, won't be naval

Past behavior does not predict future performance. In particular, Turkey was a weak nothing in the past with nothing much to gain or lose. Turkey today, however, has enjoyed 1.5 decades of relative economic stability and prosperity which is now obviously failing.

Tom: and that was gratuitous. Too bad you contaminate otherwise interesting remarks with that sort of trash-talk, c1ue. It diminishes your delivery.

A failure to acknowledge a valid point hardly provides incentive to the other party to "talk nice".

Tom: happens all the time. And most of the stuff militaries use isn't weapons. Fuel, food, clothing, beer is most of the tonnage if troops are involved. Russia's active military presence in Syria, as I recall, is mostly air-based. I don't remember any tank battles. Point being that a brief interruption of Russian military ships transiting Bosphorus may just not be a big deal.

Wow what an utterly pointless answer. The Russian ship was carrying supplies - it doesn't matter if its food or bullets/missiles - to a conflict area in which Turkey was actively engaged.

Your answer is flip and stupid.

Tom: there you go with that smart-mouth again. Totally unnecessary, and diminishes the utility and credibility of your response. On to the point: China has very powerful reasons to cooperate with Russia. SCO, BRI would not be possible without major evolution of the Russia-China relationship. Relationship: "work together to achieve common goals". Would there be reciprocity? Very likely. China needs help, too.

Yet another response clearly based on naivete. China and Russia do not work in lockstep - their interests do not completely align and they do not cooperate in all things. The statement above clearly shows you have a very simplistic understanding of the Russia-China realpolitik.

Tom: there are numerous historical conflicts which still exist between Mexico and the U.S. Yet somehow...we can cooperate. Ask Mexicans how they feel about Texas, NM, AZ, CA.

You must be either Australian or European, because the position Mexico occupies vis a vis the US is as its bitch.

This entire exchange has shown clearly that you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 14:54 utc | 310

@Jen #222
A "friendship agreement" between nations is meaningless - friendship will hold only so long as their needs align.
And even then, 2 nations never have complete alignment.
An example of this is oil. Russia as an oil producer wants high energy prices, China as an oil importer wants low ones.
China and Russia compete in Saudi Arabia for influence - Russia to align its oil price high stabilization/OPEC dealings with Saudi Arabia; China to do the opposite.
There are many other examples: China has let Russia be the "bad guy" in the confrontation against the US for a long, long time. The Russians know this full well and aren't super happy about it.
For example: did China do anything to support Russia in the face of ongoing US and EU sanctions? The only thing they did - which benefited them more than it hurt them - was to lend them some of China's USD hoard.
Nor is your demographic argument the least bit convincing.
I know a lot of people in Russia including in the Eastern side. The flood of Chinese people, money and corporations there is enormous. There is immense resentment not only over the cross border pollution, the migrants, but also over the way Chinese businesses freeze out local labor, services and goods companies when they come in. The Russian government is largely ignoring all those affected because of its present strategic interests but it is not at all clear how long this can continue.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 15:01 utc | 311

@ptb #213
I agree inflation is a major factor, but I actually don't think it is the only or possibly even primary one.
I have seen multiple interviews now of "swing" and suburban Democrat voters - what has come out is that the lockdowns have opened people's eyes to the garbage being spewed in public schools by the ultra-radical teachers. It isn't just CRT but is also soft porn.
In the past, busy parents assumed their kids were getting an education like they themselves received - but apparently at least some significant number are being outright propagandized.
What the head of the national Teacher's Union was screaming about in Virginia prior to Youngkin's victory is not an outlier.
When even Kyle Kulinski starts talking about culture vs. economics as an issue for the Democrats - to wit - that suburban American identify far more with Republicans culturally, that's interesting.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 15:06 utc | 312

C1ue @ 308

Historically revolutions do not entail “complete destruction of the existing order”. What usually happens is a significant change in who formally holds power. In all cases the police and the army turn on a dime. Police and soldiers loves them some authority and salute whoever has it. “Descent into chaos”, if it occurs, follows from a civil war. Civil war will usually require foreign support. The foreign supporters of course do not much suffer from the chaos they engender.

Dreamers dream of revolutions that completely destroy whatever irks them. It just doesn’t happen so easily.

Paraphrasing from memory McKeon’s translation of Aristotle’s Politics. “It is always easier to retain power than it is to seize it. Thus, when power changes hand in the State, we should blame those who have failed to do what was easy, and praise those who have accomplished what was difficult.”

Most of the rest of your analysis @308 is close enough.

Posted by: old house | Nov 23 2021 15:08 utc | 313

@Roger #217
I've never viewed Trump as a savior - but his willingness to broach subjects that were off limits to the mainstream American oligarchy is why he is popular.
And his rise is directly linked to the escalation (or devolution) in the political calculus between the Republican and Democrat parties.
If, in fact, he goes through with a media empire of his own - separate from the CNN/MSDNC/FOX duality, it will have a YUUUGE impact.
IMO - a fresh widespread, if not mainstream, voice is positive no matter how kooky the network is.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 15:11 utc | 314

@waynorinorway #301
Still here? I thought you were flouncing away in a huff.
Removing someone who is disrespectful of what the owner and operator of a blog asks EVERYONE to do is perfectly fine.
We Reserve The Right To Refuse Service.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 15:16 utc | 315

@old house #313
I would posit that what you are terming a "revolution" where the police and army change sides, is actually just a coup. A different faction taking nominal power, but the same general oligarchy still in charge.
The Central and South American nations have had many such coups - but the telling fact is that the same 200-300 families in each nation are still in the mix the entire time.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 15:22 utc | 316


Spellcheck run amok. Sign that one oldhippie.

Posted by: Oldhippie | Nov 23 2021 15:23 utc | 317

To add to the above: there have been very few outright Revolutions in history. It is because the middle class doesn't like instability and will strive to minimize it in every way possible.
The Russian Revolution was one. The French Revolution was another.
The American Revolution was not - it was nothing more than the local oligarchs wanting their own power over rule by someone far away.
The Chinese Communist victory in 1949 is a 3rd.
In the past, the peasant revolts were almost uniformly crushed; the one exception - Sparta - turned into an even worse oppressive oligarchy than it replaced.
So no, I don't think Revolution is inevitable because it is so destructive. I just think that we aren't going to get substantive change in the US without one because of the technology induced collectivization of the US (and European) elites.
Twitter is nothing more than the voices of the oligarchy, for example. Yes, lots of regular people use it but the majority of tweets come from the oligarchy and its bitches, so their "use" of it is as the means by which they are manipulated by the oligarchy.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 15:28 utc | 318

I am confident that our host did not ban Dinkeytale ("king donkey rear dot org", as I referred to that poster) due to that poster's negativity regarding this site. Rather, the poster regularly posted under differing aliases to "Me too!" and boost his own posts. The poster tried to simulate his own fan club to generate the illusion that his posts had the authority of popularity. I am sure our host would ban anyone playing games like that regardless of their apparent political orientation.

I have seen nothing to suggest that our host banned our resident bunny. My assumption was that the bunny ran off because I climbed down under the bridge and chased that particular troll away, though doubtless that is grossly overstating my influence in the world.

Circe is gone because her contract expired. She'll be back when the US midterm elections officially get under way.

A week ago I would have loudly defended vk, even though by then I could already see that poster was mostly a poser. Granted, vk is more knowledgeable than most people about Marxism, but Marxism is the very easiest subject in the world to know more than most people about. Very few people know anything about it at all, so I was pleased to have run across someone who had actually read "Capital". Still, there is a huge gulf between "book learnin`" and practical experience. Even though the poster is from a country with a small middle class it was clear he was from a very sheltered background and never had an opportunity to experience the theory in any concrete way. The depth of this lack of real world experience became painfully obvious in the Rittenhouse discussion. The poster got the class nature of the events entirely inverted, and when this was pointed out the poster openly admitted to just trolling the discussion.

I doubt that episode of trolling is why our host banned vk, and he certainly wasn't banned for lack of class consciousness, but those are why I cannot find the enthusiasm to stand up for him.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 23 2021 15:31 utc | 319

C1ue @ 316

French and Russian revolutions the police did turn on a dime. Very extensive historiography on that. Army more complex but many generals did simply salute a new flag. Chinese revolution I just don’t know, the country had been in civil war and chaos for so long it may have been moot. KMT was the last non-PLA army, they were American puppets.

Yes, revolutions are often indistinguishable from coups. Victors write the history and would rather be something more noble than coup plotters . Your view of the 200 or 300 families tells the story. They are always there.

Posted by: Oldhippie | Nov 23 2021 15:46 utc | 320

Just a "ping" to show I'm still around despite not posting any comments for a good while; I hope to return to more active participation in the future.

Meanwhile all the best to all of you :)

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Nov 23 2021 16:05 utc | 321

@Posted by: boon | Nov 23 2021 14:49 utc | 309

Thanks saw it yesterday and saw as well that The Kremlin highlightes the event in his channel "The Kremlin Stories"...thus it must be important message to those trying ot ignite war..

I am highly surprised by your recalling of that post of mine who passed so unadverted by the rest...In fact. i always have doubt many people here pay attention to my scarce posts here...

If you allow me and are willing to answer, Russian or Lebanese?

Why would the Russian have kept these imagery out of hand of Lebanese authorities so far?

P.S: In case you are Russian I would be posting here a podcast on the falling of the USSR ( more than that its dinamiting from the outside with the help of insiders...)a puntilious journalist and historian has published this past day on how to overthrow a regime and how that technics are currently used to destory our nations...Escalating inflation, halting production and supply lines and increasing indebtness with financial and monetary institutions has something to do...There is the same people at the driver seat... now against us all...Are you willling to die in the 12 millions or more people as it was the toll of the "raping of Russia"?

Posted by: Black bread | Nov 23 2021 16:20 utc | 322

Black bread, I read your posts and very much appreciate them. I was humming that music from Stalin’s funeral for hours. (Normally I don’t connect what happens in Canada with him, although I am very much aware of Russia’s importance!) Keep posting, I’m sure many others like me are reading what you say.

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Nov 23 2021 16:37 utc | 323

Numerous points under discussion--left/right; socialism/fascism; troll; not-troll; and most others--become rather interesting when confronted with this sort of article that IMO transcends lines of all sorts since its goal is to arrive at the truth of the matter and allow justice to capture and punish the outlaws regardless of who they happen to be. Combine the fundamental nature of that article with what we observed as the Rittenhouse outcome, and it becomes clear how deeply conditioned some people are to believe the lies instead of the obvious truth. And that IMO is where the real problem lies within the Outlaw US Empire's society and those of other Neoliberal controlled nations since Neoliberalism is based on a set of lies that are made out to be truths. Yes, 1984 to be sure, but even worse since it's not as overt.

At least one barfly has called for RICO investigations, a call I second. The problem, however, relates to the institutions requiring investigation--The US Justice Department, the FBI, the Democratic National Committee, the Clinton Foundation and both Clintons, and other related entities, CIA included. If Congress was indeed a separate yet equal branch of government as the theory implies, then it ought to have no problem initiating such an investigation into the gross abuse and corruption of office and power to usurp the government of the USA, which might also be called Treason. Please do note that given the evidence, this isn't a partisan issue since the Democrat Party attacked one of its own to subvert the will of the people, and then attacked its opponent to arrive at that same goal. It's an apolitical issue dealing with the Law and what it means to be a Patriot. Now, don't misinterpret what I just wrote to say Trump's a patriot for he's just as dirty as the Clintons but in differing ways. Bottom line: The Duopoly must face a RICO investigation for its many crimes committed over the past 40+ years. IMO, that's the only way the USA will be able to remain a unified republic. The problem of course exists with the Duopoly controlled Congress which would rather see the criminal activity continue than to deal with the required outcome of a genuine investigation that goes after the real criminals and puts them where they belong. And if Congress refuses to investigate itself and the Executive, that leaves it up to We The People, which presents its own set of problems.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 23 2021 17:00 utc | 324

@Black bread #306
You are completely full of it.
Watch some of the videos from the Rittenhouse trial, for example.
You can clearly hear, in the background, obviously black people urging the crazy white ones to do bad things: hit the guy, smash his face etc.
"mostly peaceful" is CNN bullshit.
Proof is in the burning buildings.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 17:04 utc | 325

Here comes the train:

As you no doubt have heard, Powell is being renominated for Fed Chair. Only idiots are shocked by this.

But what is interesting is that now he, as well as democrat Brainard who is to be the new Fed vice-chair, both were all-in on inflation being a problem.

Tightening in mid-2022 is obviously going to get pulled forward, because inflation is now the front of mind problem for Biden and the Democrat party. They clearly feel something must be done.

Which makes Kelton's interview with Michael Moore so much more interesting. Will she change her tune now that the Democrat party is saying that inflation is a problem and we are doing something about it?

I am still giving Kelton a little bit of benefit of doubt, but I have yet to hear her speak in substantive terms (i.e. concrete examples), as opposed to being a wonk supporting MMT.

It is equally clear that she and Hudson are no longer fellow travelers on the Democrat party front - Hudson used to think the Democrats were just temporarily deluded but has since said it needs to be destroyed and rebuilt, whereas Kelton was Bernie and is now "in" with the mainstream Democrat Congress.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 17:10 utc | 326

"I was humming that music from Stalin’s funeral for hours".

@Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Nov 23 2021 16:37 utc |

"The Song of the Volga Rowers" is a Russian folk song compiled and published in 1866 by Mill Balakirev. It is a genuine saloma sung by barge shooters on the Volga River in the 19th century. Repin's famous painting, "Burlaks on the Volga", depicting the suffering and misery of the boatmen in the Russian Empire, was inspired by this song....

No wonder passedc to join the whole repertory of classics from the Great Patriotic War which acted a inspiration and encouragement for the Soviets against the nazi ( now we can test also oligarchy´s ...) war machine.

There is no victory without inspiring music rising the souls and spreading a sentiment of union and common goal...hence troops always have had their musicians embeded into their ranks, playing loud while charging...and we have now but reageton all over the West...

Posted by: Black bread | Nov 23 2021 17:10 utc | 327

Black bread @322--

Lavorv at yesterday's shared presser with Lebanon's Foreign Minister Abdallah Bou Habib spoke and answered a question about the pics supplied by Roscosmos to Lebanon:

"We are creating and actively using the legal framework to implement a number of mutually beneficial projects. We reviewed the prospects for the potential participation of Russian companies in restoring the infrastructure destroyed by the explosions at the Port of Beirut on August 4, 2020. At the request of the Lebanese government, we sent satellite photos taken by Roscosmos. We hope they will help in the investigation of this incident. This issue has created much attention in Lebanon. We hope that it can be resolved and that the cause of the incident will be established....

"Question: How can the images you have given your Lebanese colleague today help in the investigation of the explosion in Beirut? The accusations widely differ, but the explosion seems to be at the root of the current political crisis.

"Sergey Lavrov: Regarding the satellite images, I don’t know how they can help in the investigation. I am not an expert. We have fulfilled the instructions which President Vladimir Putin issued after he received a request from President Michel Aoun. Roscosmos has provided the images of the situation in the port in the spring of 2020, that is, before and after the explosions. Roscosmos experts said that the character of the damage can help determine the cause of the explosions. We hope that Lebanese experts, using the assistance of their foreign colleagues, will get to the bottom of this matter, which is really becoming a major political irritant in Lebanon. We would like it to be settled as soon as possible."

Why weren't they provided earlier is the point at issue it appears. Russia's policy of non-interference is at root here. Russia doesn't view its task to be to investigate as it's not directly involved. However, if asked if it has such materials and it does, Russia will provide them when formal requests are made. If I were Lebanon, I would also ask the Chinese for whatever material they have. IMO, the upheaval of Lebanon's government delayed such a request. I looked again at the Q&A portion of Putin's Valdai Club speech and found his answer to the question;

"As for helping with the investigation, frankly speaking, I do not understand how satellite pictures can help, and whether we even have any. However, I promise that I will make inquiries, and if we do have anything and can provide assistance to the investigation, we will do this. But first I need to discuss the matter with my colleagues who may have this information."

That was made on October 21 and the photos were delivered prior to yesterday's meeting, so the process took a month.

Regarding other info about Russia, besides myself, there are several other investigators of Russia, past and present here at the bar, plus others who just lurk, and we appreciate and share what we uncover, although at times the volume of info itself is tasking. So please, do share.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 23 2021 17:31 utc | 328

@314 c1ue

Take the good from what Trump accomplished and get rid of the bad.

This may mean that we have to abandon Trump unless he confronts unspeakable taboos in the coming years...if we get there.

Case in point: Newsmax has arrived as a supplement to Fox News in "conservative" media. New faces are Ben Shapiro, Candace Black-Lady, Michael a lesser extant Dennis Praeger and that screaming guy Mark Levin. This is the new conservatism. Much like Bernie Sanders continues to catch the disillusioned outliers of the party to rein them back in to acceptable discourse.

DJT-media will probably be the same. Until the influence of Big-Money Tribe is addressed by Trump, though it will gather market-share, his media company will not move the needle to real Nationalism one iota.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Nov 23 2021 17:33 utc | 329

@Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 17:04 utc | 325

I refer to mostly peaceful demonstrations against the pandemic dictatorial measures and so called "green pass"..
And, yes, as the proof is in the pudding, this 28 minutes lasting video on, I insist. mainly peaceful people marching against dictatorship in Australia...Info clearly opacized in the US by the Rittenhouse case ...

Wonder yourself why some would need reigniting rage and division amongst black and white people in the US just now when all the truth about the pandemic and its "measures", which will affect equally black and white working class people, starts going in the open as the facts on excess of mortality, especially on cardiovascular events, not precisely due to Covid-19, with regard previous years so clearly show..

The orchestrators of all this need to make of that already resolved case by the rule of law an issue for giving oxygen to the divide so that you do not fix your eyes on them....belonging to the bipartisan system...

Posted by: Black bread | Nov 23 2021 17:40 utc | 330

@NemesisCalling #329
If the new media is just a hook for a new generation, for Fox et al - I absolutely agree this is a very bad outcome.
And to be clear, I've never seen Newsmax as being the least bit credible.
However, sadly, the bar has been lowered so far by CNN and MSDNC (in the past 2 years alone) such that I suspect a lot of otherwise oblivious people are going to look for alternate sources of news. Most people are neither interested nor able to wade through the swamp of internet junk to curate their own.
The original hosts of Rising, for example, left that show in May to form their own show (Breaking Points).
Love them or hate them, they are pretty reasonable people despite being fully immersed in the Swamp and are open to acknowledging both ugly truths about their own respective sides and errors that they make (which everyone does).

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 17:45 utc | 331

@ Patroklos | Nov 23 2021 2:06 utc | 272 thanks patroklos! your quote -

"Are we supposed to believe b was upset by vk's satirical jab but not equally upset by the tsunami of anti-vax posts that daily saturated his comments board? Or any other loony remarks?

If you don't like someone or their post scroll on until you do."

i suspect b was not happy with any number of comments we see here! although as lurk notes ( i agree with a lot of what lurk says ) - it is very difficult to get banned here.. i guess vk pushed it after b asked him to stop putting up all these links.. i can only guess what the final straw was.. but ultimately, i agree with you - just scroll past if you don't want to read someone.. it is easy to do..

@ grieved... i agree with you - left / right lingo has lost any relevancy at this point.. and of course pyschohistorian elaborates, and i agree with them as well..

@ Sunny Runny Burger | Nov 23 2021 16:05 utc | 321... good to see you!

i think jackrabbit will be back... i don't believe he was banned as ADKC suggests... if he was, i didn't see it..

Posted by: james | Nov 23 2021 17:48 utc | 332

Left or Right (Grieved | Nov 23 2021 5:14 utc | 277)

Them or us, or if you identify with the other side; Us or them.
There have been enough discussions on MoA about the similarities between the two parties, that it should be accepted that they ARE the same. That the discussions about political leanings of yesteryear will have the same impact on the hoi poloi; reducing reactions to basic Pavlovian reflexes. Or worse, simply emotional reactions to key words. (late stage pavlovian, without the bone as a treat *1*).

This is the designed effect. That the populace should consider there are two diametrically opposed groups, and that the wishes and desires of the populace will be represented by one or the other. A distraction from the actual balance of power and the financial accumulation of the world's assets by a incredibly tiny minority.

Meanwhile, back in the control room, the Corporations, the subsidised Military, the uberRich, the power brokers, the greedy and the chosen, are all free to screw the most they can out of a system that, in fact, NEITHER represents the people NOR their wishes.

Discussions of Marxism vs cronyism (Sorry... capitalism), even as an academic topic, cannot bring the originals back to life.

It is arguable that even the Chinese and Russian's present day political systems are no longer "communist", but not yet totally capitalist. The US system is more Marx (Groucho), than Market (free).

Outside of them are the "vested" interests of the "owners and hereditary autocrats and the 40 "families".


Left or right? They just are two arms of the monkey that belongs to the organ grinder.


*1* or even NZ Pavlova without the strawberries and cream

Posted by: Stonebird | Nov 23 2021 17:59 utc | 333

Two news items from Canada that I wanted to post for fellow barflies.

First, there is a major storm on Canada’s East Coast; media reports that Halifax, Nova Scotia has experienced power outages. I don’t know anything about what’s happening out there but I wanted to mention it. As I understand it, Imperial types have a long-standing (like *long* long-standing) grievance with the hunk of land known as Nova Scotia belonging to Canada.

Second, two photojournalists were arrested by the RCMP on BC’s North Coast. They were covering an ongoing protest by a First Nation against a gas pipeline. Much controversy about this. While the RCMP have arrested people as a form of oppression on many occasions, given what’s happening right now on the West Coast, I say perhaps we should look more closely at these two. Like very, very closely.

I notice the The Guardian has this one covered too.

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Nov 23 2021 18:23 utc | 334

@waynorinorway #301 Still here? I thought you were flouncing away in a huff.
Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 15:16 utc | 315

Yes c1ue, I’m still here. I responded to your snarky (and childish) remark (Nov 22 2021 15:30 utc) so you shouldn’t be surprised. Now I’m responding to your post (November 23, 2021 at 15:16), using time stamps since post #s are off.

Perhaps you took my remark ‘C-ya round the campus sometime, maybe.’ wrong. You see, a campus is how I view this blog, including the comment section. I’m here to find out things, not tell everyone how much I know. I’m a firm believer in Gertrude Stein’s point that questions are more important than anwers. What has transpired over the past days has diminished the stature of ‘My U’.

The curriculum, to continue the analogy, has been cut-back. Patroklos made the important point (Nov 22 2021 20:40 utc) that banning vk took away a most valuable Marxist viewpoint. Gruff, MagdaTam and others may be as well or even better versed in that viewpoint, and vk’s interpretation wasn’t always on the mark, but no one other than vk consistently tries to look at things with a Marxist analysis. (btw, It’s my opinion that doing so is why vk was castigated so heavily. Inconvenient truths stir the pot.)

I’ve asked before and will repeat it now, where is there a better system of analysis? Science has the scientific method to guide it. Political science, to the extent one can call it a science, doesn’t lend itself to that kind of a process. Other than Marxism what system of analysis can be applied, and if you have one, is it better?

I thought james ( Nov 22 2021 17:28 utc ) and again now @332 I see, had a good view of how to deal with vk. Certainly b has a right to do what he did, that’s not in question. I question the wisdom of his action. Screen space and trivial links seem disingenuous.

Finally c1ue, and frankly, I do not enjoy your style. I don’t want to engage further with you.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Nov 23 2021 18:35 utc | 335

The ANC suffered its worst losses in the recent local government elections:

The ANC’s voter support has dropped in the country’s nine provinces and further saw Gauteng metros being snatched by the DA as the opposition’s Randall Williams secured the position of Tshwane mayor. The new Johannesburg mayor is Mpho Phalatse and Ekurhuleni has named the DA’s Tania Campbell as mayor.

The ANC also lost support in Mogale City on the West Rand and other municipalities in Limpopo, Free State, Eastern Cape and Mpumalanga.

ANC’s collapse in support at the polls is disappointing, says Cyril Ramaphosa

Posted by: Down South | Nov 23 2021 18:36 utc | 336

Reading over the last 100+ posts here I can see that the bullies have won back the playground. The lack of civility——and respect was the selling point of this site (vk never put anyone down, remember that)——has now become normal. c1ue, lurk, cadence calls, William Gruff now have free reign to repeat themselves and their bragging, displaying the ugly side of b's policy——smug, superior, lack of self-doubt, braying, vaunting, and sometime just plain rude and nasty. They scoff from the safety of their strollers while mama b keeps away the naughty kids. But you all troll like the best of them, you hypocrites. Can't argue with someone? Blacklist them and ban 'em.

All the tactics of the decaying world, the MSM, the outlaw empire, neoliberalism, managerial capitalism, cancel culture, wokeism——you're all complicit because you lack the civility of karlof1, Uncle Tungsten, James, NemesisCalling, Roger, and good many others——including vk——who helped b get this site off the ground. After all, b has benefitted too from vk's posts, he ought not to forget that...

Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 23 2021 19:24 utc | 337

As I've mentioned previously, I don't understand this "left" and "right" designation.
Posted by: Grieved | Nov 23 2021 5:14 utc | 277

I agree that they mean nothing, even less in the US. More and more I see comments about the real fight being vertical, and I agree.
The way I understand it the ones at the top are the ones who preach individualism. Sure, they got it made, why shouldn’t they take that view. What they don’t want is collective thinking. It was a vertical battle in the French Revolution and left/right has evolved into an extremely effective propaganda tool that the ones on top use for preventing collective thinking. That’s why the analysis here @ MoA should be congenial and collaborative.

I don’t think there are any rich sons-of-bitches here. If there are, kudos to you unless you're trolling, and ‘hey buddy, can you spare a dime?’.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Nov 23 2021 19:29 utc | 338

@Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 23 2021 17:31 utc |

The podcast I was talking about is in Spanish, thus very limiting the ammount of people who would understand.

Wait for me until the weekend so that I can see whether i can make a summary or a transcript.

This is an author with a total anti-communist bias, but to my experience very accurate and honest person.

In a nutshell, he coments on a speechg made by an already declining Margaret Thatcher at a US univeristy or think tank, just two or three years previous to the orchestrated fall of the USSR, where she stated the were the USSR follow its path at the time, with the huge potential of gorwing of its planned economy, left unmolested at its own, would had overpassed not only the UK, but may be even the US, as a power in the markets, hence all the efforts to undermine Soviet economy by UK and the US. The author also netions the CIA fact check report in the same line, adding that except for a little backward in IT development, the USSR was at the head in the rest especially production of food and other goods reaching self-suficiency levels, along with military development.

It was "the man of the envelop", of whom she, Thatcher, realized was the man to bribe, who organized the stopping in production, dismantling of Soviet industry and looting of natural resources, plus the take over of the media by Soros´franchises, with the result of an equivalent to war, the death of 12 millions of Russians and the rest submitted to misery.
From a caloric consum equally to that of the US for an adult at the time, the USSR went to numbers of life expectancy and caloric consum equal of lower to those prior even to the 1917 Revolution, inflation rised to three cyphers, people´s saving were erased, looted by those who were placed in power plus their foreign masters.

This is the narrative which fits with the images of Soviet era where you can atest strong happy people dressed in a very dign way, an not the usual rethoric in these forums on that the USSR was slowly declining, was unternable, and the authors of its destruction from inside just gave it a push...

Posted by: Black bread | Nov 23 2021 19:34 utc | 339

Black bread @322 No, I'm neither Russian nor Lebanese, I'm a brit. I remembered your comment because I was going to respond at the time. I was going to tell you the lady's name was Raghida Dergham, & she had been on one of the panels at Valdai. I stopped myself because I liked how you wrote of your admiration for the traveller from Lebanon, petitioning the President on behalf of her country. I saw the journalist, you saw the Lebanese citizen.
Karlof1 @328 Thanks for sharing the link for the presser. I agree with Lavrov, I would like it to be settled as soon as possible.

Posted by: boon | Nov 23 2021 19:45 utc | 340

While perusing the various Twitter feeds for Canada’s Armed Forces, I came across this Tweet. … I know this is tin-foil hit territory, but I think they may be trying to tell us something. About 5 international navies — maybe in a location other than the Philippine Sea?

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Nov 23 2021 19:49 utc | 341

@waynorinorway #335
The difference between me and you is I don’t care about “style” or “norms”, I care about content and principle.
And what has been abundantly clear is the hypocrisy of so many liberals.
I have lost all patience with two faced hypocrites who pretend to love liberal idea but are constantly calling for censorship, for preference, for all manner of bias in the name of equity.
Is this you? I don’t know. You frankly just don’t post much of anything much less anything of substance.
And note I have just the same style when disagreeing with The Gruffster who morons think I am ideologically in lockstep with.
Democracy and the marketplace of ideas is about conflict: my views vs yours vs everyone else’s.
If you can’t take the heat, get out of the fire.
I will furthermore add that the inability or unwillingness to stand up for so ideals is the hallmark of the lazy and/or inept.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 19:50 utc | 342

@Posted by: Black bread | Nov 23 2021 19:34 utc | 339

The author concludes we are being submitted to an equally comparable economic shock and dinamiting of our nation states, aided by the take over of our media by foreign actors, through the "pandemic measures" and "great reset" which will give as a result the same loss in human lives and purchasing power and will drown us in misery and slavery for generations, unless we rise up.

He always concludes with this words, "But do not allow you being carried by frustration and despair, since eventhough the powerful sometimes look like giants, it is only because they are observed from the knees, and it is just about time to stand up"

The speech by Margaret Thatcher took place at the Conference of Oil in Houston on Novemeber 1991, the author thinks he was so sincere probably encouraged by that renewed relevance achieved after she was displaced from power the previous year, or may be already giving clues of the mental illness which will cloud her last days...

Posted by: Black bread | Nov 23 2021 19:58 utc | 343

@ waynorinorway | Nov 23 2021 19:29 utc | 338 who wrote
.....and ‘hey buddy, can you spare a dime?’.

As part of my future studies education 50+ year ago we revisited that quote and changed it to

.....and ‘hey buddy, can you paradigm?’.

The elite don't want to change the paradigm but us at the bottom do and just want to wake up the zombies to the alternative paradigm that China and others provide examples of.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 23 2021 20:32 utc | 344

A new Anti-Imperialism and Anti-Misinformation organization has arisen--Horn of Africa Hub--which is affiliated with Black Alliance for Peace and the Act Now to Stop War and End Racism (ANSWER) Coalition and combined with other global organizations in this action:

"Large protests in more than 30 countries on Sunday demanded an end to US intervention in the conflict in Ethiopia, as well as misleading reporting on the conflict by Western media outlets, including the BBC and CNN.

"The protests took place under the hashtagged slogan #NoMore, signifying an end to Africans’ tolerance of US meddling not just in Ethiopia and Eritrea, but the entire Horn of Africa region."

There's a very large refugee community in the Middle Atlantic states capable of generating sizable demonstration crowds, and many are keen given the last 20+ years of intervention:

"Thousands rallied outside the White House and marched through the US capital, waving Ethiopian and Eritrean flags and carrying signs that criticized the US Agency for International Development (USAID) for weaponizing aid and suggested that if the US continued its intervention in Ethiopia, the country would meet the same fate as other nations like Libya, Afghanistan, and Syria."

This demo was sophisticated and called out the Manufacturing Consent agencies:

"“CNN, you are reporting fake news on Ethiopia,” one sign read. “#NoMore spreading misinformation and insighting [sic] panic, fear and chaos,” read another....

"Those attitudes are widespread back in Ethiopia, too. On Friday, the Ethiopian Media Authority published letters to CNN, BBC, Reuters and AP warning the news agencies 'not to endanger Ethiopia’s national interest, territorial integrity, or the peaceful coexistence of the people of Ethiopia' with their news reports. '[I]n the absence of ethical and professional journalistic operation, the Authority would be compelled to revoke the license granted to your institution to operate in Ethiopia.'"

Those barflies who read the interview with Destroying Yemen: What Chaos in Arabia Tells Us About the World author Isa Blumi I link to yet again will see the Outlaw US Empire's strategy to secure the Southern approaches to the Red Sea and Suez canal that's been ongoing since Clinton/Gore.

I don't know if this was linked and commented upon upthread, but Patrick Armstrong's latest, "MacKindergarten Lesson", ought to be read in connection with the above and geopolitics as a whole as the Outlaw US Empire clearly hasn't given up trying to control the world.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 23 2021 21:26 utc | 345

karlof1 #324

Certainly a comprehensive inquiry and clean out is needed yet from my detached perspective is it is a remote possibility. Special Counsel John Durham has made significant progress and perhaps will stay the course as there are many in the loop that are clearly guilty as sin of major undermining of the USA. As if the Clinton email server wasn't the greatest security breach in US history, followed closely by Debbie Wasserman Schultz installation of the Awan family spy ring inside the Democrats in Congress.

So we are left to chase the herrings of russiagate. Don't get me wrong, it is worth the chase but the Augean stables are some distance from the pig pen.

There is really only one litmus test for this Durham stage and that is how many of the top FBI (or perchance CIA) rogues he can successfully prosecute in his lifetime. It is all very well to sweep up the machine men but a very different thing to start on the FBI facilitators. Yet this is vitally important to fortify the change process that so many USAians hope for. My guess is that Durham will be severely undermined and under threat every day of his pursuit and that will now escalate. The Italian Magistrates after the mobsters is an example of how extreme the precautions must be for both staff recruitment and day to day personal security.

There are $$millions ++ dependent on his failure for the Democrat mafia and their 'fundraising for elections'.

Should the midterms establish a solid Republican majority then Durham MIGHT be more secure. The same corrosive culture likely pervades the Republican team too though so they might prefer to stop short of going after the discredited democrat political leaders let alone the FBI.

Nobody in the Republican side is talking about the Clinton emails or the Wasserman Shultz espionage ring.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 23 2021 21:36 utc | 346

karlof@345, again thank you for your links & perspective, this agenda however i believe has been ongoing since the brits. a fundamental facet they have ingrained into the 'outlaw empire's' template as well.

Posted by: emersonreturn | Nov 23 2021 21:41 utc | 347

Nobody in the Republican side is talking about the Clinton emails or the Wasserman Shultz espionage ring.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 23 2021 21:36 utc | 346

The last thing the Republicans want is for the Democrats to fold. The Democrats rely on that. You can easily see that the Democrats are refusing to do anything to stop the Pubbies in 2022 right now. The are not a party, they are a herd of office-seekers. They spend their days soliciting money from the rich.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 23 2021 22:01 utc | 348

Bemildred #348

The last thing the Republicans want is for the Democrats to fold. The Democrats rely on that. You can easily see that the Democrats are refusing to do anything to stop the Pubbies in 2022 right now. The are not a party, they are a herd of office-seekers. They spend their days soliciting money from the rich.

Agreed entirely. Each of the duopoly teams get saddled with an impending disaster that gets clumsily manipulated to afflict whichever is necessary. The media then add their effort - for a price of course.

Black Bread #327

Thank you for the Volga Boatmen links. I used to sing that in my school choir. The boatmen were slaves under the oh-so-christian Czars and their regional enforcers. There was nothing nice about the Czars in their humanity or service to the people. Viva la revolution.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 23 2021 22:12 utc | 349

The crimes go all the way to the SSCI, which has both Dems and Reps on it.
The only one doing his job at the time was Nunes, and he was temporarily suspended for asking the right questions.
Yes the non politicians like Comey, Brennan, Strzok, etc need to be punished for their lies and treachery as well.

Frankly, I’m surprised Durham is still ongoing, considering the current admin.
But, the cynic in me thinks he’s only being allowed to continue in order to figure out just how he can protect the coup plotters and the institutions they run.

Posted by: Cadence Calls | Nov 23 2021 22:55 utc | 350

On USA and its warmongering.

Peter van Buren reports:

You may remember America went to war in Syria in 2015 under Barack Obama. What was going to happen next there was a major campaign issue in 2016. The catch-phrase was whether either candidate supported “boots on the ground.” Trump, who did not overtly support that, did it anyway, and under now a third president some 900 Americans are still on the ground in Syria on a mission looking for a strategy.

It would be surprising if one out of 100 Americans knew today we were still at war in Syria. Don’t ask Senator Tim Kaine, Clinton’s running mate in 2016. During a recent Senate hearing on Afghanistan, he declared, “I am relieved that for the first time in 20 years, children being born in this country today are not being born into a nation at war.” It is doubtful Kaine or more than one out of ten thousand when told of the ongoing fight in Syria could explain why.

So it is surprising to see the New York Times front page an investigation into a more than two year old U.S. air attack in Baghuz, Syria which killed some 80 women and children. Though the entire strike was preserved on drone video, a precise death count is unlikely because the three weapons dropped, totaling over 2,500 pounds of explosives, would have reduced most of the dead to a fine, pink mist. Hard to count that. The amount of explosives used against these undefended human targets in the open was roughly the equivalent of that carried by a B-25 into actual combat during WWII.

The whistleblower for this crime against humanity was punished.

This is a dark tale and one of the primary reasons for all nations to close the US embassy on their soil immediately. Global terrorists should not be rewarded - ever.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 23 2021 23:01 utc | 351

Published in Circulation, the journal of the American Heart Association, general regarded as the number one journal in cardiology. This is published, peer-reviewed, appearing in a premiere location. This is not quackery. Read the final sentence of the abstract. Stronger language is not used in this type of publication. This goes to the limit.

If one and all were not hypnotized, walking around in a trance, this would end it. Sadly all evidence is inadmissible to the believers.

Posted by: Oldhippie | Nov 23 2021 23:28 utc | 352

This bizarre article demonstrates not the power of the Bandit State desperadoes but their weaknesses and fragility:

"At The Arkansas Times, a publication I founded 47 years ago, our pages focus on small-scale local issues, like protecting Medicaid expansion from the predations of our state legislature and other elements of Arkansas politics, history and culture.

So I was surprised when in 2018 I received an ultimatum from the University of Arkansas’s Pulaski Technical College, a longtime advertiser: To continue receiving its ad dollars, we would have to certify in writing that our company was not engaged in a boycott of Israel. It was puzzling. Our paper focuses on the virtues of Sims Bar-B-Que down on Broadway — why would we be required to sign a pledge regarding a country in the Middle East?

I understood the context of that email. In 2017, Arkansas pledged to enforce support for Israel by mandating that public agencies not do business with contractors unless those contractors affirm that they do not boycott Israel. The idea behind the bill goes back 16 years. In 2005, Palestinian civil society launched a campaign calling for “boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel until it complies with international law and universal principles of human rights.”

Around the world, Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions, or B.D.S., as it became known, gained momentum. In response, Israel and lobbyists have used multiple strategies to quash the movement. In the United States, one such strategy took the form of anti-B.D.S. bills. Currently, more than 30 states have provisions on the books similar to Arkansas’s

It soon became clear that The Arkansas Times had to answer our advertiser. Though boycotting Israel could not have been further from our minds and though state funding is a significant source of our income, our answer was no. We don’t take political positions in return for advertising. If we signed the pledge, I believe, we’d be signing away our right to freedom of conscience. And as journalists, we would be unworthy of the protections granted us under the First Amendment...."

Posted by: Paul | Nov 23 2021 23:31 utc | 353

@ paul 353 - That is an interesting article you linked to. It is all the more interesting because Pulaski Tennessee is the birthplace of the Klu Klux Klan. Maybe they are ultra sensitive about their name. ;)

Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 23 2021 23:57 utc | 354

uncle tungsten @351--

This paragraph in your citation contains several lies:

"You may remember America went to war in Syria in 2015 under Barack Obama. What was going to happen next there was a major campaign issue in 2016. The catch-phrase was whether either candidate supported “boots on the ground.” Trump, who did not overtly support that, did it anyway, and under now a third president some 900 Americans are still on the ground in Syria on a mission looking for a strategy." [My Emphasis]

Each bolded phrase is a lie. The Outlaw US Empire began its covert war on Syria well before 2015. Boots were already on the ground well before the 2016 election and false 2015 date for starting hostilities. Trump continued an already existing policy that he tried to alter but was met with insubordination when his orders to alter policy weren't followed.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 24 2021 0:09 utc | 355

Oldhippie @352--

Thanks for that abstract. Just another reason to avoid mRNA vaccines and other things proposed by charlatan Pharma corps.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 24 2021 0:11 utc | 356

While Finnian Cunningham may be correct in his description of the R Party's direction, he needs to open his eyes to see the same actions being carried forth by the D party in his latest essay, "Hapless Biden Administration Is Weimar Republic on Way to U.S. Fascism". Within the Outlaw US Empire, there's a historical analog--the escalating fragmentation of the D Party during the 1850s, and particularly after Buchanan became POTUS in 1857 in conjunction with the birth of the R Party in the aftermath of the Whig Party's collapse in 1852. I've previously promoted Roy Nichols Pulitzer Prize winning book The Disruption of American Democracy that describes the Era and its rising fanaticism that culminated in the US Civil War. Our contemporary times are much different and the fanaticism is the product of one party--the Duopoly--using Divide and Rule as its sole tool to remain in its position.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 24 2021 0:34 utc | 357

Michael Hudson has conducted another interview centered on the third edition of Super Imperialism: "Falling into Line: Turning Endless Deficits into a Power Base." The Emcee, Kevin Barret, asks all the right questions for a change and the result is grand!

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 24 2021 1:04 utc | 358

@Oldhippie | Nov 23 2021 23:28 utc | 352

Uh-oh. I hope for your post's sake that thread senescence will guard it from obliteration. Scroll back to page one if you want to know what I am referring to...

BTW I really resonate with your mentioning of hypnosis. A much misunderstood topic!

I believe I have said this before, but it is such an underestimated issue that it bears reiterating once more: Suggestion is fundamental to many of our modes of higher cognition. Every word, thought, feeling and sentiment conveyed is hypnotic in nature. Even our common human tendency to dissociate into abstract rationalizations has strongly hypnotic aspects.

Public science doesn't seem to notice or care a lot about these matters. I guess philanthropists don't value it much.

It used to be different. At the onset of psychogy-as-we-know-it, Freud went to see Charcot and Janet at the Salpetriere in Paris. When he returned to Vienna, he tried some of the tricks that he had learned, but botched it badly. A scandal was narrowly averted. Freud's entire career success is based upon obfuscating what he had been shown in Paris and upon his nephew Bernays' efforts to push Freud's diversional nonsense while himself gainfully employing the suppressed useful bits in the field of public relations and advertising (ie. hypnosis). Still later Freud was effectively scrubbed from the field of psycholgy and it has been further degraded into a "functional" science (useful to industralists), Still, the fruitful ideas of Pierre Janet linger in obscurity (never mind Charcot who was just toying with poor "fallen" girls.)

If you care to follow the lead from Charcot a little further back, first to Marquis de Puysegur, then to Gassner, you'll find how it was a secret of the priestly elites. After Gassner started spilling the beans, Jesuit Maximillian Hell quickly propped up Mesmer to divert everyone's attention using obfusctions like the mysterious new phenomenon of "magnetism".

But it goes back much much older. The priestly elites derive their secret knowledge from the simple tricks employed in animal husbandry, except that they adapted it to human husbandry. And with human cattle, the possibilities are so much more interesting, as they are infinitely more capable to respond to suggestion once you get them out of their right mind.

Wealth as possessions are based purely on suggestion. That anyone owns more than they can carry or fend off others from as an absolute is in reality not an ethical principle, but straightforward hypnosis. Without it, hereditary empires, money, banking, capitalism and even organized states as we know them cease to exist. Much the same with all forms of organised religion (including the cult of pretend marxists who much resemble christians in their endless zeal, bigotry and hypochrisy.)

Nothing will change until humans learn to recognize what makes them tick and who is holding their leash. Abstract concepts and ideologies are mostly part of the dizzying distractions that keep us from seeing who what and where we are.

Posted by: Lurk | Nov 24 2021 1:08 utc | 359

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 23 2021 15:11 utc | 314 and Roger @ #217

I've been reading some older essays by Jim Sleeper that I think do a good job of describing the Trump phenomenon. Hint: It's a reaction to the kind of capitalism Americans have been subjected to over the last 30 years resulting in "ressentiment."

Here's a link to several of them dating back to 2014 and working up through the near-present.

In ressentiment, the little-big man seeks enemies on whom to wreak vengeance for frustrations that are only half-acknowledged because they come from his exploitation by powers he’s afraid to challenge head on. No wonder that the 2012 Republican National Convention roared with such delight as Clint Eastwood interrogated an empty chair symbolizing an invisible President Obama. No one wanted to know what Eastwood would have dared to say to the real Obama or what the President would have said back. Ressentiment thus warps the little-big man’s assessments of his hardships and opportunities. The same George W. Bush who Trump supporters once thought they’d enjoy having a beer with perpetrated and enabled massive frauds on them. They can barely admit this, but they’re determined not to let it happen again. Their problem is that they don’t know enough, aren’t independent and well organized enough, and lack sufficient resources to prevent it. Ressentiment perverts their efforts by stoking and misdirecting their frustrations. Whether it erupts in a medieval Inquisition, a Puritan or McCarthyite witch hunt, a Maoist Cultural Revolution, nihilist extremes of “people’s liberation movements” such as the Khmer Rouge, or a strain of political correctness that grips a particular community, ressentiment’s most telling symptoms are always paranoia, scapegoating and bursts of hysteria violence.

Apologies for the formatting (copying from PDF inserts line breaks) and trigger warning; he quotes George Soros right after those paragraphs.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Nov 24 2021 1:12 utc | 360

@Tom_Q_Collins | Nov 24 2021 1:12 utc | 360

Sigh.. The information that you bring sounds interesting on the surface but it is more misdirection. I don't blame you specifically, most people are terribly badly informed. "Ressentiment perverts their efforts by stoking and misdirecting their frustrations." your quote even mentions it, superficially.

If you want to understand the Trump phenomenon, and by extension (or perhaps more fundamentally USA "the-mock-crazy") do a little research into the web that connects Donald J. Trump with Roy Kohn and 'The Mary Carter Paint Company'.

PS: Don't bother to be distracted by DJT's friendly relations with the Clintons and their common "acquaintance" Jeffrey Epstein, that is far less spectacular than the aforementioned dirt (if you can value it for what it is worth - not easy, but the rabbithole goes deep.)

Posted by: Lurk | Nov 24 2021 1:33 utc | 361

Sorry, "Roy Cohn". Spelling matters when doing searches.

Posted by: Lurk | Nov 24 2021 1:35 utc | 362

@ 352 oldhippie... thanks..

Posted by: james | Nov 24 2021 2:05 utc | 363

Posted by: lex talionis @ 35

"That is an interesting article you linked to. It is all the more interesting because Pulaski Tennessee is the birthplace of the Klu Klux Klan. Maybe they are ultra sensitive about their name."

It looks like the KKK and the ugly zionists are on an ideological unity ticket, not such strange bedfellows.

Here's a song, 'he's a drug store truck drivin' man'...You know what comes next:

Posted by: Paul | Nov 24 2021 2:11 utc | 364

@359 Lurk

A few weeks back we were discussing the phenomenon of "mass formation" in one of the threads. I believe this came from a book, essay or more likely an interview on video - or all of the above.

In the latest Dark Horse Q&A, a questioner asks what Bret Weinstein thinks about the idea. He replied that he's been watching it for a few weeks and can't dismiss the idea at all. I found that compelling. He doesn't supply any more to the point except to confirm the readily apparent, namely that the the four required conditions for mass hypnosis are certainly present in society today.

I decided to look up the 4 conditions and a LazyWeb search came up with a nice write-up of the theory:

Mass-Formation by Dr. Mattias Desmet Professor of Psychology University of Ghent

1) There needs to a lot of socially isolated people or people who experience a lack of social bond 2) People who experience a lack of ‘sense making’. Unable to come to sensible conclusions. 3) There is a lot of Free-Floating Anxiety (FFA). Free-Floating because there’s nothing to connect their anxiety to. No focal point. Unable to identify what’s causing and so no way to deal with it. 4) There’s also a lot of Free-Floating Psychological-Discontent. People may experience their daily lives as lacking any purpose or meaning.


So when these pre-conditions are highly present within a population and then the media provide a narrative which indicates a focal-point for this anxiety while at the same time describing a strategy to deal with this object of anxiety then all the anxiety connects to this object of anxiety.


The resistance to understanding the narrative is false or wrong is driven by the fear of returning to the state of Free-Floating Anxiety and wanting to continue to experience the mental intoxication.

This explains why arguing based on facts will not work. Facts no longer matter to them. Given the facts, they are be unable to come to sensible conclusions, even in their own best interests.

We are certainly seeing extreme behavior in multiple realms - the Rittenhouse thread simply being a recent example close to home.

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 24 2021 2:19 utc | 365

Posted by: Oldhippie | Nov 23 2021 23:28 utc | 352 "If one and all were not hypnotized, walking around in a trance, this would end it. Sadly all evidence is inadmissible to the believers."

Posted by: Lurk | Nov 24 2021 1:08 utc | 359 "Nothing will change until humans learn to recognize what makes them tick and who is holding their leash. Abstract concepts and ideologies are mostly part of the dizzying distractions that keep us from seeing who what and where we are."

Oldhippie and Lurk have introduced a different viewpoint...the subject of "what is a trap" and are we in one...and if so, how to get out.

The fact of hypnotism, simply that it is known to exist, is the tell...the clue, that what we have ingested on the vital subjects of death, life, memory, learning, intelligence, the mind, spirit, truth, sanity/insanity...what is a mostly second-hand data meant to distract, disable and preclude successful enquiry. Hypnotism is supremely qualified as an example of a trap.

How could this be?...Why ? The theory of traps is very nearly unstudied. How to recognize being in a trap if the subject is unknown?

Posted by: chu teh | Nov 24 2021 2:28 utc | 366

@365 more...

I'll go a little further with musing on the Rittenhouse thread. I read the whole thing, although only glancing at the many comments I skimmed over.

I was left with the stark impression that we currently lack the correct words to talk with each other.

I don't mean this as a slur on anyone's vocabulary, but it's where my recent thing about left-right confusion comes from. A lot of the words thrown by people at other people seemed inaccurate at the time, but I don't think this was necessarily because people were angry or in a hurry to say something - maybe this was part of it, but there seems to be something else afoot.

I assume words continue to mean something to each person using them. And I assume for sanity we all need to know how to communicate accurately. And I wonder what happens to one's balance of mind when one is continually frustrated in communication with others - that they just don't understand what you're saying, and that you can't make any sense out of what they obviously believe. And that there seems no way to agree.

And there is a personal loss of socialization from this, a deficit that may actually hurt, whether or not we examine it carefully to see this.

I don't think I can go any further than this, but I'm curious if this might be an effect of mass-formation, and if this might contribute to the dysfunctions that induce mass-formation. And if this might be a self-perpetuating downward spiral.


One thinks of the classical Devil, and classical evil, and the twisting of words to beguile and bewilder the human mind - portrayed expertly by C.S. Lewis, for one.

One thinks of Fauci, speaking lies as a natural part of himself, as a child of the father of lies.

We are beset by lies on all sides.

No wonder the mind frays.

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 24 2021 2:45 utc | 367

366 chu teh - How to recognize being in a trap if the subject is unknown?

Buddhist teaching says that all of the mind's thoughts are illusory, and delusory. Buddhist meditation therefore aims exclusively on letting go of attachment to these thoughts.

Not letting go of the thoughts, note well, but of the attachment to them.

You cannot be trapped by that which cannot ensnare you. And that which you continually renounce cannot entrance you.

The meditation technique is very simple to learn.

I offer this for what it may be worth to anyone.

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 24 2021 2:58 utc | 368

@367 "I was left with the stark impression that we currently lack the correct words to talk with each other."

We have plenty of words but they mean different things to different people. People are so touchy these days that if you use the wrong words or use them in the wrong context somebody will think you are being sarcastic or arrogant. It's very difficult to convey tone on the internet. So we use emojis to show how nice and harmless we are.

Posted by: dh | Nov 24 2021 3:03 utc | 369

@Grieved | Nov 24 2021 2:45 utc | 367

Not sure where to begin, the rabbit hole goes deep.

What if the loss of socialization precedes words, in that words are predicated on the trauma of the loss of socialization.

The last time when I touched upon these matters, I mentioned the "supernatural"/paranormal. Notice how that entire domain has been degraded into charicatures, complete with much touted charlatans misrepresenting it.

I'll offer an analogy:

Somnambulists are known to perform complex tasks. They can asnwer questions, drive cars, etc. Can you explain to a somnambulist that he/she is sleepwalking? You can try, but will it register?

Just scratching the surface..

Posted by: Lurk | Nov 24 2021 3:26 utc | 370

@370 Lurk

So oldhippie goes to the heart of things with hypnosis, and chu teh transcends the trance by asking how to find our way out of a trap, if there is one (and already probing for ways out of it).

You postulate that maybe they caught us at a weak moment - first they deprived us of not just sensory input but spiritual food also (socialization), then they started the narrative games. I ask if this was done through words or if words are the necessary sacrifice while bending the mind.

[And maybe "they" don't exist but personally I'm quite comfortable thinking they do.]

And I remember your inclusion of supernatural aspects of life, but not the specifics. I would be glad if you would offer more on this aspect - I'm not shy of such thinking and I promise you a serious audience. The supernatural is not the non-natural or the unnatural, it's simply the natural writ large because our minds are cast small.


We are trying to discover how the minds of entire populaces are being conditioned, and how to shatter this conditioning. We see it all around us, and if we look closely we may even see some of it in ourselves. Is mass-formation happening, and are we caught up in it?

We are trying to deduce what is happening around us, and with us in our lives, in the very same time that it is happening. This is the ultimate survival skill.

This seems, not esoteric, but central to things right now. If we could put it into actionable words that could achieve consensus, solidarity...

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 24 2021 4:09 utc | 371

Lurk #359

"The cult of pretend Marxists" !

I am grateful that the real Marxists, Graebers, Hudsons have contributed to our comprehension of the peoples power VS the thieving hypocrisy of the capitalist pigs.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 24 2021 4:15 utc | 372

@ Grieved | Nov 24 2021 4:09 utc | 371 and Lurk about the social condition.

What I want to offer is from a book titled "Monsters of the Market - Zombies, Vampires and global Capitalism" by David McNally.

In the book McNally describes the origin of the term zombie and its applicability to the mindset of those inculcated into the "system" and the vampires that prey on them.

Brainwashed, hypnotized or whatever. The folks behind the curtain of deception about the details of our form of social organization have accumulated centuries of experience which we are watching them display as they try and defend against the example of China, others and their public finance approach.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 24 2021 4:19 utc | 373


I have more questions than answers.

I am not even sure if I have the right questions.

Anyway, I have to sleep now as I am quite tired.

Posted by: Lurk | Nov 24 2021 4:25 utc | 374

Grieved #368

Thank you for linking the mass formation phenomena to meditation as antidote. That is mighty helpful.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 24 2021 4:29 utc | 375

@373 psychohistorian - "centuries of experience which we are watching them display as they try..."

Yes - we get to watch. Never was there a time like this, I suspect. We actually get to watch, and have the minds to watch and not get hypnotized.

We get to watch their greatest and best techniques, and see how they work, and then smash them to the ground.


And noted, the book. I've brushed against this concept of monsterism before, lightly. But the notion of "body panic", which the book clearly details, is where we are now.

Thank you. I did find it downloadable and will read.

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 24 2021 4:31 utc | 376

@374 Lurk

I'm gone too. But we have time. There is no hurry.

I think this is a large and lengthy conversation - certainly not an argument, friends, and maybe not even a discussion - but a conversation, where each offers whatever one postulates, and each takes whatever is meaningful.

I welcome this. We are in a mess but we are not a mess. Therefore let us discern the nature of this mess.

Lots of time, we have.

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 24 2021 4:36 utc | 377

Below is a quote and link to the latest from Wall Street on Parade

the quote
Prior to the 2008 financial crisis, the Fed’s balance sheet stood at $929 billion as of December 26, 2007. After the 2008 crisis, the Fed’s balance sheet peaked at $4.5 trillion in 2015. The Fed promised to “normalize” its balance sheet. But instead of materially reducing its bond holdings, the Fed’s balance sheet has now skyrocketed to $8.7 trillion as of last Wednesday.

the link

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 24 2021 4:57 utc | 378

@Lurk re: the rabbit hole goes deep

The problem with grabbing its tail is it will gladly suck you down to the infinite abyss.

Case in point: the first Matrix film was great. The next two were like an anus devouring its body.

At some point, you must act, you must decide, you must leap. And beyond this, you must not give the devil too much credit. Not everything is its work, though some of it certainly is.

In confusing times, I remember to tell myself two things I have read:

Even the sage knows that some things are difficult. (Tao Te Ching)

These horrible days - when shooting film dis- gusts me, when I am exhausted, powerless in the face of so many obstacles - are part of my method of work. (Robert Bresson - Notes on the Cinematographer)

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Nov 24 2021 5:56 utc | 379

Lurk grieved and all, thanks for sharing viewpoints.

Words and thoughts stir myriad connections with pre-existing words and thoughts. Such are certainly much involved with the "mind" thingy.

And yes, with practice one can learn to some beneficial degree, to receive them and allow them to just pass through without reacting to them.
I.e., to not automatically allow the input [what is received] to act like a pinball and ignite other, oddly related cascades of "mind" activity. This is not the same as "cleaning-up" the content of the mind; it is learning how to
de-sensitize the automaticity of what is already in it...its reactivity.

As for what is the content and organization and connectivity [circuitry] in the mind,,,that is for another topic. And the little I know of it is daunting.

Posted by: chu teh | Nov 24 2021 6:44 utc | 380

Good morning from the frozen Arctic. Bring back global warming!!
Enjoying the conversation about words.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 23 2021 20:32 utc | 344
.....and ‘hey buddy, can you paradigm?’.
Great! I love it.

The elite don't want to change the paradigm but us at the bottom do and just want to wake up the zombies to the alternative paradigm that China and others provide examples of.
‘Xactly. That’s what I was trying to get at in my post there @338. I meant to convey that the battle is between those who believe that the individual is the source of creativity, while a socialist state like China sees it's source as the collective & cooperation. So it’s the Chinese, we are told, that steal our ideas. That the elite have us arguing over the illusionary left/right divide is really our bad - and our challenge.

Grieved @367 said, “I was left with the stark impression that we currently lack the correct words to talk with each other.”
Words matter. I think that’s acceptable to most. Even though I agreed left/right meant nothing, that’s not what I meant. I meant that the way those words were being used was meaningless, that the dichotomy was an illusion.

Communication is more than words, as dh was saying @369. Tone and body language are important. The written word is much less efficient than the spoken word. In a verbal conversation we often ask, ‘what do you mean’. We get clarification and move on. You don’t see that happening here or on social media. Person to person is better than the phone which is better than a written exchange. Zoom and such is perhaps better than just a phone, but it’s hard to beat sitting down with someone over a couple beers and chatting.
Maybe when this ugly covid is over b will open a real bar. I’d be a regular.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Nov 24 2021 7:12 utc | 381

@ Grieved et all

Hypnosis occurs to individuals and to groups. You either see the mass formation(s) or you do not. It happens everywhere and at all times. Seeing it does not save you from the 'trap'.

As to commenters being snippy and defensive it is simple. Man is inherently self-alienated; he holds things: ideas, emotions, and objects that are not his. Writing is a good means of presenting one's 'otherness' in concreteness for reintegration into the psyche. The natural tendency is for reintegration and we are all so full of shit it takes a lot of regurgitation to sort through. Hence listening and understanding is deprioritized. Who can understand others who does not understand himself? He will forever get in his own way....

Posted by: Justin | Nov 24 2021 8:28 utc | 383

Posted by: Justin | Nov 24 2021 8:28 utc | 383

Writing and talking are good for different things, and they address different parts of your mind, to some extent.

For empirical work with the world at hand, it is better to write things down, writing is handy as extra memory too.

Writing things down is better for analytical subjects, talking and working with your hands for mastery of a particular real-world activity, like welding. And most things have elements of both, which ideally compliment each other.

To deal with other people, as people, you are better off to talk, and in person.

This relates to the "Thinking, Fast and Slow" ideas about different types of intelligence, which I would call different modes of perception.

And this relates to the idea the reality cannot be captured by words, only described with words. It is always an approximation and an image. We like to believe in our words. Very comforting.

And yes, it can be very difficult to get that little voice in your head to shutup, so you can think.

But well worth it.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 24 2021 9:18 utc | 384

karlof1 #355

Thank you for alerting me to the lies in my referenced report from Peter van Buren at my post #351. My apologies to all.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 24 2021 9:19 utc | 385

Lurk #361

Thank you for the tip.

Mary Carter Paint Company has an interesting past as explored here.

The comments following the report are worth the time.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 24 2021 9:44 utc | 386

Alexander Mercuris explores the retreat from Ukraine wargame. Risk of Ukraine War Fades as Political Economic Crisis Deepens.

Worth the time and at the 16 minute mark Alexander digs into the internal political collapse of the Zelensky momentum and his imminent parliamentary reversal unless, of course, the entire field of opposition candidates are not assassinated.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 24 2021 9:49 utc | 387

Corbett • 11/20/2021: The REAL Anthony Fauci with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.:

Posted by: Antonym | Nov 24 2021 9:55 utc | 388

uncle tungsten | Nov 24 2021 4:15 utc | 372

"The cult of pretend Marxists" !

I am grateful that the real Marxists, Graebers, Hudsons have contributed to our comprehension of the peoples power VS the thieving hypocrisy of the capitalist pigs.

I was tired when I wrote that. Perhaps the jab at the "vk is above the rules because he is such a wonderful marxist"-crowd came out a bit more crass than it could have been.

To me, there is a remarkable similarity between marxism and christianity. I very much like some aspects of christianity.

The persona of Jesus is even more riddled with controversies than Karl Marx - although as far as we know it he never married into money changers, but then again, it's fairly uncontested that Marx actually existed as a real person. What started out as enlightening ideas calling for a revolution in human relationships quickly evolved into institutionalism, hierarchies and even worldly empires.

There are still quite a few well-meaning christians who, ignoring all the horrible parts, try to make the best of loving the other. But the bulk of contemporary christianity that I see is at best about being "holier than thou" in the eyes of the neighbours and "passing the soulmark" in the eyes of that vengeful bearded guy in the sky. In the worse cases, it's a flimsy screen for hatred, bigotry and outright fascism. Stuck in the middle are those who cling to empty rituals and superstitions out of diffuse fears that are only further reinforced by said rituals and superstitions.

When people pride themselves publicly for being a christian, there's always something terribly wrong going on in the background.

I don't mean to single out christianity here, a lot of the same could be said of all the other cults. It's just that christianity with its pretense of superhuman love is more vulnerable to the inevitable hypocricy. Similarly, marxism is more vulnerable to hypocricy than other socio-economic theories for its pretenses of universal benevolence.

Posted by: Lurk | Nov 24 2021 12:16 utc | 389

Tom2 @382 Hello, whilst I have sympathy with the bereaved families, why do they ask if UNIFIL had searched
the vessel? It's not in UNIFIL's remit, they flag vessels for the Lebanese to investigate.
Then we have the satellite images, why keep asking for images that must already exist. Are we to believe the USA & France do not have access to satellites? The beeb has discovered the UN did not reply to the families requests, despite directly addressing Guterres, totally ignored their desperate pleas for assistance. I'm not defending the UN or Guterres but they must get thousands of communications, & most of them never read. You'd need someone to lobby on your behalf to gain any attention, or use official protocols for communication. The Beirut Bar Association should have asked the ambassador to deliver the requests if they felt their questions were so important.
Aya Majzoub, hrw Lebanon, also believes the UN has failed the families. She asked the UN why these important letters were ignored, but they didn't explain, only saying they focused on answering those from officials. Thankfully Russia has now officially released some images to the Lebanese Authorities, hopefully bringing an end to these requests.

Posted by: boon | Nov 24 2021 13:40 utc | 390

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 24 2021 4:57 utc | 378

Below is a quote and link to the latest from Wall Street on Parade...
the Fed’s balance sheet has now skyrocketed to $8.7 trillion as of last Wednesday.

One might ask the question:

If its Wall Street that benefits so much from Fed QE then why are Wall Street voices always complaining about it?

Posted by: jinn | Nov 24 2021 13:51 utc | 391

@NemesisCalling | Nov 24 2021 5:56 utc | 379

As a movie recommendation I would like to point to Blade Runner, the director's cut.

It is in my opinion a phenomenal masterpiece, sadly misunderstood as a mere stylistic gem, as if there is not much to it beyond a dystopian sci-fi film noir. But in fact it is a great work in the tradition of psychological literature that deserves to be spelled out and weighed, word for word, scene by scene.

As an example, consider the carefully chosen and significant names of the two main protagonists, Deckard (Descartes - I think therefore I am) and Roy Batty (the king of fools). Or what about Gaff (a movie set gaffer, a hooked pole to manipulate objects floating outside of a ship, a swindler - Gaff embodies it all.)

Like a classical music composition, the introductory text describing replicants provides the motive that the story unfolds upon.

"Early in the 21st Century, THE TYRELL CORPORATION advanced Robot evolution into the Nexus phase - a being virtually identical to a human - known as a Replicant. The NEXUS 6 Replicants were superior in strength and agility, and at least equal in intelligence, to the genesis engineers who created them. Replicants were used Off-world as slave labor, in the hazardous exploration and colonization of other planets. After a bloody mutiny by a NEXUS 6 combat team in an Off-world colony, Replicants were declared illegal on earth - under penalty of death. Special police squads - BLADE RUNNER UNITS - had orders to shoot to kill, upon detection, any trespassing Replicant. This was not called execution. It was called retirement."

The key to start decoding the psychological depth of the story jumps us in the face already in the opening scene, where replicant Leon Kowalski is interrogated and explodes into a fit of violent rage when asked about his mother.. Also notice the psychological torture leading up to that crucial question, as Leon is entranced with suggestive imagery of helplessness.

I shall refrain from elaborating further dialogues and plot twists (you can find the lot at in order to cut through to the chase.

It is in plain view that Roy and his fellows, and also Rachel, are replicants. For many years, fans speculated and argued about the question whether Deckard himself is a replicant. It is actually pretty transparent, if you read the hilarious dialoge of Deckard testing Rachel on request of Tyrell. But in order to understand the true depth of the movie, it is necessary to understand that all personages are in fact replicants, possibly with the single exception of Gaff.

A big clue is contained in the metanoia of Roy Batty (you'll find lots of christian imagery around that theme.) After coming down from killing his "father" Eldon Tyrell, Roy Batty - a trained alpha soldier - realizes that he has been fooled. The Tyrell he just visited and killed is not the real Tyrell, but a replicant, a canary hung outside as a lure. At once he understands that, he realizes that everything is a setup, and that Deckard too is but a replicant, albeit one who is oblivious of the fact. Roy now proceeds to love his enemy and at the moment of his passing, a dove flies off - lots of christian imagery.

Deckard only begins to realize who he is when Gaff taunts him by revealing a part of Deckards dream, something Gaff could not rationally have been able to know. Thus ends the story.

At the level of the plot, it is an interesting and subtle play, where things are not what they seem at face value. It remains speculative whether Gaff is the sole human directing the whole setup, of if he is yet another replicant, dutifully performing his gaffing task on the set.

At the level of the psychological drama, it is an even more interesting work, asking us to reflect on the amount of programming in ourselves and our illusions of who we are. The depiction of replicants as slaves in a dystopian corporate dictated world is provocatively oppressive.

Posted by: Lurk | Nov 24 2021 13:55 utc | 392

@Grieved and others who took interest in the matter of hypnotism.

I'm sorry that I did not follow up on your questions and instead made an attempt to insult the marxist pretenders yet even more by equating them to christians. I could not help myself.

As a gesture of good intentions I wrote a somewhat lengthy review of Blade Runner, because I find it one of the best ever, but also because its deeper layers intersect with the larger issues involving control systems that hold us in check.

If I find time I may write more tonight.

PS lest anyone think that I am a rabid rightwing guntoting fellowtravelling gruffian brawler, because I seem to be singling out the pretend marxists a lot, I am decidedly not. I even tried to insult the brawlers, but it didn't work, because those guys don't even understand when the joke is on them. Sigh.

Posted by: Lurk | Nov 24 2021 14:13 utc | 393

The effort by the white middle class "woke" to explain away the "Trump phenomenon" as a manifestation of "resentment" is nothing more than "They hate us for our freedoms!" ignorance in new packaging. It is an effort to rationalize from within the internal logic of exceptionalist delusion the behavior and views of a population that the "woke" themselves have defined as an enemy. As with the Kuwait incubator babies, Iraqi yellow cake and weapons of mass destruction, Uighur genocides, and Libyan rape rooms, the "woke" have created in their minds fictional evils of the "deplorables" to attack, but that leaves them with the task of explaining the existence of those evils in the first place. Why would these people do these things and why would they be our enemies? Clearly they just hate our exceptional awesomeness and so commit evils out of their bitterness. What else could it be?

Unfortunately, when one begins an analysis with the presumption of one's own exceptionality then the ability to consider that one might be wrong is off the table right from the beginning. That leaves the explanation for those one has defined as enemies to be simply that they are inexplicably bad. Instead of pursuing their own freedom, or their own exceptional awesomeness, those bad people choose to resent us instead and attack our wonderfulness.

The white middle class "woke" are wrong at a very fundamental level of their thinking (the foundation of their worldview is Philosophical Idealism, in which thoughts cause matter to come into being), and until they can confront that the conclusions they come to that follow from that error are also wrong then the divisions in the West will persist. If the adherents to Philosophical Idealism triumph then the Enlightenment is over and Dark Ages MkII commences in earnest.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 24 2021 14:38 utc | 394

@Tom_Q_Collins #360
An interesting viewpoint but one I disagree with.
The underlying assumption here is that the "middle class" or "regular guy" knows what is happening and who is doing it.
That is nonsense.
Regular people are busy - raising families, running businesses, whatever. I have and continue to talk to a lot of middle class/regular guy people to get an understanding of what they do/do not know.
They know something is wrong but they don't know what, why or who is responsible. They know this because they are working harder than ever but still feel they're losing ground. They are very aware that things are worse than they used to be.

The level of wrongness correlates with their economic situation. Those who are, more or less, still ok are, more or less, still ok with the status quo.

However, there is an undeniable trend downwards of the numbers of middle class families under the above scenario.

Those who have lost economic self sufficiency - who have joined the Precariat - are angry. As are those who are close to it.

That's why Trump is so successful. The mainstream media - Fox and CNN/MSDNC both - has resonated for decades that failure is because you are a failure: too lazy for the former, too dumb (not "meritocratic" enough) for the latter.

Contrast this with Trump:
Trump pointed out what Ross Perot predicted in the 1990s: offshoring would destroy American livelihoods and lives (the giant sucking sound). Perot was ultimately wrong that it would be Mexico, but he was absolutely right. China simply executed better than anyone else on what the American oligarchy not only permitted, but enabled in order to enrich themselves.

TDS exists because there are sufficiently intelligent people who recognize that first blaming China for the above deterioration opens the door to blame resting on where it belongs: the American oligarchy. The MSM. The Deep State. The CEOs. The Professors of all manner of social studies including economics.

This cannot be allowed.

Note this view does not treat Trump as a savior or as a visionary - it treats him as someone who is willing to say anything to accomplish his goals even if it is a strategic mistake.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 24 2021 14:47 utc | 395

I have thoroughly enjoyed the back and forth on this fourth page, concerning where we all are, and where we are going. Thanks to the many barflies contributing; it has been genuinely touching. My only thought is that perhaps we might all re-read Candide.

Posted by: zakukommander | Nov 24 2021 14:56 utc | 396

re: William Gruff | Nov 24 2021 14:38 utc | 394
"To refute the solipsist or the metaphysical idealist all that you have to do is take him out and throw a rock at his head: if he ducks he’s a liar. " - Edward Abbey

Posted by: waynorinorway | Nov 24 2021 14:58 utc | 397

I align more with c1ue. I don't doubt that mental machinations exist among the thinkers and writers, but I tend to look at the situation on a more down to earth, blue collar level.
The USA is stuck with a totally corrupt government and the citizens don't like the situation. From a weak Constitution, to gerrymandering, to life-long paid-off congress-critters, and rotten education, health and employment factors, also a total lack of any pretense of democracy (elections per se are not democracy), the people are unhappy and are not going to take it any more, especially the people at the low end of the ladder who are discriminated against. So we get stuck with fabricated enemies and non-stop war to get the focus off of the real problems in the country.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 24 2021 15:03 utc | 398

@ 397
Ah, love me some Edward Abbey. Some Abbeyisms:

>No man is wise enough to be another man's master. Each man's as good as the next -- if not a damn sight better.
>I know my own nation best. That's why I despise it the most. And I know and love my own people, too, the swine. I'm a patriot. A dangerous man.
>Sentiment without action is the ruin of the soul.
>A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.
>The tragedy of modern war is not so much that the young men die but that they die fighting each other--instead of their real enemies back home in the capitals.
>What's the difference between a whore and a congressman? A congressman makes more money.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 24 2021 15:07 utc | 399

waynorinorway @397

lol! So true!

Sadly the "woke" are (mostly) comfortable asserting that they themselves are the rational ones adhering to science. They have their "Critical Theory", after all, which happens to bear the same relationship to science as "Creation Science" does. Furthermore they are so confident in their own rightness that they will never bother tracking the logic of their ideas back to their philosophical fundamentals. Why invest so much effort when the rightness of their ideas seems so self-evident?

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 24 2021 15:33 utc | 400

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