Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 24, 2021

Open Thread 2021-91

News & views ...

Posted by b on November 24, 2021 at 16:42 UTC | Permalink

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@ Boss tweet | Nov 25 2021 2:54 utc | 99

I miss VK’s idiosyncratic contributions. I didn’t always agree with them, but I welcomed them as widening and deepening the conversation. While arrogance knows not its limitations, insight emerges sometimes regardless — if causes and conditions permit.

Who are we if we censor the opinions of those with whom we disagree?

Posted by: suzan | Nov 25 2021 3:12 utc | 101

Actually, I would be happy to learn more about Australia. I suspect I can get this education better from Patroklos than from William Gruff.

But personally, I like W. Gruff - and trust his sincerity - more than I do Patroklos.

And yet, who could call oneself human and not be moved by the comment from Patroklos @55 where he simply records that he wishes he could have known his grandfather.

War got in the way - an action created on behalf of people who knew each other well, setting men who didn't know each other at all to kill each other.

The same happens now, as Patroklos and Gruff battle it out - each thinking their ideas are the most real thing in the ring, not managing to step back outside the ropes, where in the good seats can be found those who set us against each other.


This is not to moralize or shed any phony tears. This is strategy, tactics. This is to say to William Gruff and Patroklos both - how about if we three all join up in solidarity and rip the throats out of those fat cats in the ringside seats - and simply forget the trivial matters that try their damnedest to divide us, and instead focus on the commonalities of our condition.

We all had grandfathers, for gods sake. We are all human. And we are all ensnared by those above us. They love to watch us squabble. They are terrified of our solidarity.

Let's spend some time building solidarity, instead of repairing our individual egos by insisting we're right.

Who the fuck needs to be right? There's a real war to be fought.

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 25 2021 3:15 utc | 102

Very unfortunate, if this censorship and slide to please reactionaries persists, I will reconsider future contributions. I fear some barflies are mistaken, the USA doesn't have any right wing parties. Democrats are to the right of most classical european right wing parties. Reactionary republicans are to the right of extreme-right political formations like the front national in France. In any case, Americans are out of touch with reality, this country's becoming increasingly ungovernable.

Posted by: Boss tweet | Nov 25 2021 3:29 utc | 103

I am sorry to sound harsh and I didn't mean stop posting but the Aussie holiday discussion should go to bed.

I understand people sometimes get under our skin ... it happens to me here too. Then that person says something that totally reverses my opinion in the next thread.

I am grateful for you all (at one time or another) ;)

Posted by: ld | Nov 25 2021 3:30 utc | 104

William Gruff | 81:

There was some discussion is the previous "Week in Review" thread about what "left" and "right" really mean these days.

Given that the terms "left" and "right" originated in the seating arrangements of the French National Assembly following the French Revolution in 1789. The members who supported the king (and, thus, were conservative) sat to the right of the Assembly President's chair, while those who supported the revolution (and, thus, radical), sat to the left.

Of course, these days, no-one uses "right" to mean a monarchist, and I very much doubt the French revolutionaries would recognize any of the causes championed by the modern left — they would be much more likely to identify with the modern right.

However, left and right weren't the only divisions in the Assembly. There was also the Mountain (Montagne or the Montagnards) and the Plain (Le Plaine, also known as Le Marais — ‘The Marsh’ or ‘The Swamp’). The Mountain, so called because most of its members sat in the upper seats at the rear of the assembly, drew most of its support from the metropolitan areas of Paris, and they were the most aggressive in pursuing change and revolution. The Plain, who sat near the front of the Assembly, closer to the floor, represented the various regions of France outside of Paris and they were a bit more cautious in adopting change, because the regions they represented were a bit more tentative about upending everything on the basis of some new philosophie, which might sound good, but had not yet been shown to work in practice.

As far as I can tell, Mountain and Plain are far more appropriate to describe current political differences. The modern 'left' are primarily urban, while the modern 'right' is more rural. The 'left' considers everyone outside the cities to be deplorables, which pretty much matches the attitude the Montagnards had for Le Plaine.

It just seems a better fit for the current divide.

Posted by: Kukulkan | Nov 25 2021 3:55 utc | 105

Boss Tweet @ 99, Suzan @ 101:

VK was banned from MoA for excessive link spamming or posting links to other online sites' topics not related or relevant to the topics on MoA comments threads.

VK was also told (repeatedly by B, apparently) not to link to a site or an article and then copy and paste the entire article, no matter how long it was, with the link.

I have seen this kind of behaviour over at Off-Guardian in the past where a troll called Matt, claiming to be a Venezuelan student studying in Canada, frequently flooded comments threads with very long comments containing links to articles that were irrelevant to the topic of the original Off-Guardian post. The effect was to derail discussion away from the original topic and to tie up commenters in endless and exhausting disputes with the troll (who ended up dominating the comments thread). The tenor of such disputes frequently deteriorated into abusive behaviour, much of it coming from Matt who could be at once charming and erudite, and then arrogant and childish.

(BTW, I thought it very odd that VK, claiming to be Brazilian, got heavily involved in comments threads attached to MoA posts on Kyle Rittenhouse's trial. What relevance can Rittenhouse's trial and the issues it raised for Americans have for people in Brazil who presumably have their own issues with corruption in their country's legal system and have their own tragic history of race relations to grapple with?)

I suspect that Matt and others like him who claim to have progressive political views and who make frequent references to Marxist philosophy (though strangely leave Friedrich Engel out of their conversation) may be college students employed by governments and directed by supervisors feeding them pseudo-leftist propaganda so as to make their comments credible with unsuspecting commenters at targeted blogs and comments forums such as what we have here at MoA. Such tactics may be designed to generate X number of certain keywords that would come to the attention of Google, Facebook or other search engine moderators who might then discourage or even stop new readers from visiting sites like Off-Guardian and MoA.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 25 2021 4:22 utc | 106

Posted by: Kukulkan | Nov 25 2021 3:55 utc | 105

The 'left' considers everyone outside the cities to be deplorables, which pretty much matches the attitude the Montagnards had for Le Plaine...

That's certainly a stereotype that politicians and "influencers" on "the right" like to portray, and which the pseudo-left corporate media plays off of, but I doubt I'm alone here at MoA in disagreeing with it. You went from one 'either-or' scenario to a different one. Why do we insist on dividing ourselves into two polar opposite, easy to categorize masses?

There is a certain portion of "the left", mainly the well-to-do on the coasts and in state capitals, who think of *most* of flyover country save the cities as "deplorables", but in my experience it's the minority. I've never lived in NYC, D.C. or Cali, so I can only go by my own personal anecdotal experience and of course my own thoughts. Lots of "the left" has relatives in Trump country and plenty of Trump voters would have voted for Bernie Sanders if they'd had a chance to. But Hillary said "deplorables" and a certain demographic accepted the MSM's and RWM's definition and ran with it. It should be noted that Hillary and Bill were both from flyover country and thus their selling out of the average American worker and exaltation and decriminalization of laissez faire Wall Street greed is that much more....deplorable for it.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Nov 25 2021 4:27 utc | 107

Posted by: Jen | Nov 25 2021 4:22 utc | 106

So this would've been in non-Open Threads I take it? I generally only check in on comments in the open threads unless I see something drawing a particularly large number of comments or if I disagree with b's take (which isn't often at all). My recollection is that vk would do that in the open threads and kept posts in the topical threads mostly on-topic. Was it then an issue of simply taking up too much physical space on the page? I sometimes wish that MoA's web software would automatically shrink/hide long comments past a certain point and left it up to the reader to decide if they wanted to continue reading, but alas we're lucky to have b and this site at all.

Happy Thanksgiving to those Americans here that celebrate it.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Nov 25 2021 4:31 utc | 108

Posted by: Oldhippie @ 47 & Don Bacon @ 23

We have discussed the Crown nee Krinsky crime family before. You know the connections Oldhippie, even Jack Ruby and dead Kennedys. The definitive book is 'Supermob' by Gus Russo. It is a who's who of the mob.

Henry Crown must have been crooked from the day he was born. He even profited from connections in the Department of the Interior selling confiscated Japanese/American property, the Office of Confiscated Alien Property, including buying a coal mine on the cheap.

Posted by: Paul | Nov 25 2021 4:40 utc | 109

@Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Nov 25 2021 4:31 utc | 108

Just before being banned vk was openly baiting people with obnoxious comments, like referring to the mowing down of the Christmas Parade as "self defence", or comparing 5 migrants in a Polish wood to the Katyn massacre of 20,000 Polish POWs. This may have added to the marks against him.

Posted by: Roger | Nov 25 2021 4:56 utc | 110

Rock on jen. Next level analysis!
To Hades with the lot!

Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 25 2021 4:57 utc | 111

A lot of stuff I've missed about US, Ukraine, and Russia

Posted by: Charles Peterson | Nov 25 2021 5:00 utc | 112

Posted by: Roger | Nov 25 2021 4:56 utc | 110

Wow. I suppose those comments about the Xmas parade were purged then, because I didn't see them or any uproar about them. If true, a very bizarre and un-called for take from vk. I have to admit I appreciated many of his links for the China-side perspective in the OTs. I just went looking and also haven't seen jackrabbit around for a while. Was he banned too? I hope not. I didn't always agree with him/her/pronoun, but I liked that alternative theories were being floated and subjected to judgment by 'the bar' on their merits or lack thereof.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Nov 25 2021 5:37 utc | 113

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 25 2021 3:15 utc | 102

Wise words which I will act upon right now:

@Gruff, happy to let go of my anger and apologize if anything I said upset you or anyone else here.

Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 25 2021 5:40 utc | 114

Posted by: Charles Peterson | Nov 25 2021 5:00 utc | 112

Counterpunch has been on a roll lately. One aspect of the crisis in eastern Ukraine that I don't see discussed much is terrain/territory vs. people. The Kremlin and Putin couldn't probably care less about annexing that portion of Ukraine for purposes of pure territorial expansion - that's the West's goal; to encroach ever closer around Russia's borders. Instead, from everything I've read on it here and there, Putin is genuinely concerned for the safety and welfare of the separatists and (sorry if this isn't 100% correct) ethnic Russians and Russian speakers in the eastern part of a country that's ruled by proto-neo-nazis.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Nov 25 2021 5:46 utc | 115

So I am reading that empire is scheduling a "democracy" conference next month and invited Taiwan but not China nor Russia.....

And China is not happy with empire that vomits BS out of both sides of its mouth.

Remember folks; all this shit show is to keep the God of Mammon cult in the Western society's drivers seat.......I sure wish the focus internationally was on the right Gordian Knot of our species evolution.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 25 2021 5:50 utc | 116

Posted by: Roger | Nov 25 2021 4:56 utc | 110

So vk was a tasteless smart ass? Yep. But I'm happy to take his few snide comments if they're outweighed by his useful ones. For the same reason I would argue against Gruff being banned (even though he got me worked up; all good now).

It is odd though: part of the thematics of this blog is resistance to woke censorship and cancel culture. We critique identity politics, laugh here at virtue signalling and use expressions like LGBTIQWERTY. Were vk's remarks really that different other than being in poor taste? He's hardly Dave Chappelle nor should he be treated like him.

Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 25 2021 5:51 utc | 117

A Judge Stands up to a Hospital: "Step Aside" and Give a Dying Man Ivermectin

SPOILER ALERT. He lives, much to the chagrin of some health practitioners, so much so that the hospital is appealing the ruling, even after it benefited greatly Mr. Sun Ng. Looks like somebody doesn't like their narrative to be disrupted with the possibility of their cash cow withering and dying. The hospital is no doubt investing in a better judge at this very moment, something they neglected to do with their first go.

"Moreover, after Ng’s treatment was complete, the hospital system filed notice that it would appeal the order that had already been carried out. It did this even though Sun Ng seemed to have benefited greatly."

Posted by: Tom | Nov 25 2021 5:52 utc | 118

@118 Tom

Thank you, that's a lovely story. Human survival from the sheer benevolence of people - and against long odds.

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 25 2021 6:09 utc | 119

@Patroklos | Nov 24 2021 21:10 utc | 36

PS. I love how everyone on this blog assumes Thanksgiving is a global holiday (like July 4). We're all part of the United Nations of America, right? Hmmm. If I give thanks it's because I'm not a redneck praising the lord and passing the ammo. 'Thanksgiving' indeed.

Ideed, it is a reflection of US exceptionalism. I don't know what "thanksgiving" is and I don't care.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 25 2021 6:11 utc | 120

Suspension of VK's commenting privileges.

I switched from lurking at Niqnaq to lurking at MoA circa 2010 when RB began deleting my comments so he could win squabbles. I chose MoA because Xymphora frequently linked to topical MoA articles and they were always worth the time invested in reading them.

When I first arrived here there were some sensible commenters, some less sensible commenters, and some attention-seeking trolls/pests. b's regular appeals to "stop feeding the trolls" were often ignored even by otherwise sensible commenters. It was always a blessing when a troll/pest finally wore out its welcome and was warned, then banned.

Anyone is free to say whatever they like as MoA comments provided it is not deemed, by b, to be insulting or offensive. That policy has, imo, significantly improved the average quality, variety and thoughtfulness of comments here.

b can't afford to joke about banning an individual commenter. Once a warning has been issued he MUST follow through if the warning goes unheeded. It's not rocket science. Lots of people here haven't been warned - or banned.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 25 2021 6:15 utc | 121

Suspension of VK's commenting privileges.

I switched from lurking at Niqnaq to lurking at MoA circa 2010 when RB began deleting my comments so he could win squabbles. I chose MoA because Xymphora frequently linked to topical MoA articles and they were always worth the time invested in reading them.

When I first arrived here there were some sensible commenters, some less sensible commenters, and some attention-seeking trolls/pests. b's regular appeals to "stop feeding the trolls" were often ignored even by otherwise sensible commenters. It was always a blessing when a troll/pest finally wore out its welcome and was warned, then banned.

Anyone is free to say whatever they like as MoA comments provided it is not deemed, by b, to be insulting or offensive. That policy has, imo, significantly improved the average quality, variety and thoughtfulness of comments here.

b can't afford to joke about banning an individual commenter. Once a warning has been issued he MUST follow through if the warning goes unheeded. It's not rocket science. Lots of people here haven't been warned - or banned.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 25 2021 6:16 utc | 122

@ Tom | Nov 25 2021 5:52 utc | 118 with the link about forcing judicial use of Ivermectin in the US over greedy assholes objections.

Below is a quote from the story that I think appropriate to our situation

“That’s a terrible set of circumstances that people have to hire a lawyer to save a loved one’s life,” Lorigo told me. “That is a crime.”

I think I read that in Nebraska the state AG has said he would not prosecute any using/prescribing Ivermectin.

The Covid story is far from over and I think the lies around it continue to be told and exposed for the crimes against humanity they represent....that genie will not stay in the bottle and will overturn the current liars at some point, IMO....its just a matter of time unless the perps go poor loser nuclear on us all.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 25 2021 6:23 utc | 123

@ Patroklos | Nov 25 2021 2:23 utc | 92

I live on the opposite side of the globe in a small country. I agree with what you are saying. The US Americans should begin to understand that there are also other perspectives in the world than their own.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 25 2021 6:39 utc | 124

William Gruff #44

One of Australia's should be holidays is bunya nut republic day. We could burn USA flags shred union jacks, but alas we are a vassal state in search of freedom so we celebrate that stinking queens birthday, a war day, a Xmas day and a white invasion day. We will find freedom some day too.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 25 2021 6:39 utc | 125

@Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 25 2021 5:51 utc | 117

He was warned and then escalated, its not his blog its B's, what did he expect? I like Dave Chapelle, have no issue with the guy. A damn good comedian. I admire B's tolerance on such things, but there has to be a limit.

@Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 25 2021 6:15 utc | 121


Posted by: Roger | Nov 25 2021 6:43 utc | 126

It seems like all those who vouched for Ivermectin as a treatment were right. Dr John Campbell, an 'establishment approved doctor has a very good video on YouTube.
- Ivermectin allowed as a treatment on August 13
- Doctors can prescribe it without restrictions
- People can buy it legally from India
- After using it prophylactically (intended to prevent disease):
o Population 126 million
o Cases 79
o Deaths 2
o Delta wave ends (compare to South Korea, where Ivermectin is not used, cases uptick)

Posted by: Peter Schmidt | Nov 25 2021 7:02 utc | 127

Re: Australian holidays - nationally, there's NAIDOC - never mind the name, what counts is that it's a week of celebration of indigenous culture, as well as cross-over culture (I mean like the football matches etc). It's a bigger deal to me than either ANZAC Day (which I respect, but don't get involved in much) or Australia Day (change of date long overdue).
There's also state holidays, like Proclamation Day in SA, and quirky days, like Melbourne Cup day.

Re: William Gruff - just plain jerkish behaviour. Jerkishness does seem to be growing here, and I regret that.

Re: vk - it's b's blog, but I regret the banning of a mostly valuable contributor. I mainly just skip any too-long post, including his. His poor-taste remark was poor taste, but I don't think that's ban-worthy, myself. If reconsideration is possible, then I'd urge b to reconsider.

re: jackrabbit - he has an email address, but that may be out of date.

Posted by: Hope | Nov 25 2021 7:07 utc | 128

I come down on the side of Patroklos and not on the more authoritarian view of Hoarsewhisperer/Roger. Other names of course, belong with both sides, but those are the most recent posts. I’m not into arguing about opinions, just restating mine. Ban banning.

FWIW I’ll put one more little thought onto the vk banning pile. - On the left side of the home page there is a box of Gordog’s posts. It’s my understanding b had asked Gordog to contribute things like that and like many of us I think b misses him.

The last thing I remember Gordog posting was ‘I’m tired of your bullshit, vk.’ on an open thread where he and vk got into a little dispute about the state of things in the USSR. Gordog had a short fuse and took no prisoners when criticized and I think he just made the judgement that MoA just wasn’t worth the time.

As I said in the last open thread, banning and censorship are never for the reasons given. Only b knows why, but I think that he started to turn against vk after Gordog left. I could be wrong of course, it’s happened before when I thought I made a mistake.

Well, vk is banned and there’s no going back. No way is b going to rescind the ban and vk might not even respond if he did. But just that thought makes me wish vk was still here so he could comment on the process of ‘rehabilitation’ in the Soviet Union. We all need that at times.

We’re all poorer without Gordog and vk. But let’s truck on, there’s work to be done.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Nov 25 2021 7:25 utc | 129

@ Paco | Nov 24 2021 18:44 utc | 13... yeah, but i never did see them there... maybe you did... i went to some good shows at the commodore and even played there once..

@ lex talionis | Nov 25 2021 0:30 utc | 71... you got me their!! lol... crazy cut!

put this in your pipe and smoke it! thrust

@ David F | Nov 25 2021 1:08 utc | 76

i think william is actually quite funny sometimes.. i think it is hard to tell when someone is being playful and having fun and when they are being serious on the internet... i mostly see gruff as being silly and playful on this thread.. other times he is too serious for his own good.. but that is just my quick take here.... i really believe people need to skip over posts that they don't see any humour in, or let go of more... i mean this in a positive sense... we can't take people on the internet too seriously.. or we can and it doesn't help us understand others as well... well - i am trying to say something here but think i might not be succeeding, so i am going to stop! cheers..

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2021 7:32 utc | 130

I found value in some of vk's posts, but ultimately think B was right to ban him. In retrospect I do believe Jen@106 is correct about vk's intentions.

Many of his posts were extremely passive aggressive and condescending. Besides the tasteless Rittenhouse comment, vk went out of his way in a couple other posts to say how ultimately useless Moon of Alabama is, how this blog has no real value and how he was just here to practice English and sharpen his rhetoric.

Gruff may be harsh sometimes but I don't get the impression he is purposefully being disruptive. There is an authenticity and earnestness that seemed lacking with vk. As Grieved mentions above "I trust his sincerity". I may very well be wrong, and share the concerns expressed about "cancelling" contrary opinions. There is a fine line to be walked for sure.

Posted by: Haassaan | Nov 25 2021 7:32 utc | 131

@ waynorinorway | Nov 25 2021 7:25 utc | 128... maybe gordog will come back... paveway periodically shows up and i always enjoy debs is dead when he shows up..

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2021 7:39 utc | 132

Thom Prentice on Nov 24 wrote here :

For profit medical capitalism is just not up for protecting public health or anything else. What does the war budget protect besides profits? Same with Daszak and Fauci. Robert F Kennedy reports that Big Pharma giant Burroughs Wellcome (BW) profited both coming *and* going in the Aids crisis. BW holds the 1942 patent on the inhalant party drug poppers container snd was BOTH the largest manufacturer of poppers in the 80s snd 90s AND the sole manufacturer of the highly toxic, killer drug AZT advertised by Fauci as the cure fir Aids. Instead it killed more gay men than Aids. The whole temple is corrupt from top to bottom. The Kennedy book absolutely rips the bark off of the NIH NIAID and Fauci and his adoring and lying acolytes.

NONE of them are to be trusted AT ALL.

Posted by: Antonym | Nov 25 2021 7:42 utc | 133

@ Jen | Nov 25 2021 4:22 utc | 106

was it on off guardian or the kremlin stooge? i think you mentioned this the other day, but said it was matt at kremlin stooge... i enjoy good complicated, speculative conjecture as much as the next person, but i think sometimes it is more simple... in the end we are left with the folks who are here and continue to post... if another vk or circe comes along, i am sure we will see the signs - hopefully sooner then later - and know how to skip over them, or read them - however one views this!

i think vk was younger then not... he had the marxist textbook ideas down, but didn't really know how to walk the walk, as i saw it.. i was fine with him either way, although i never engaged with him.. too each their own..

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2021 7:46 utc | 134

@ psychohistorian | Nov 25 2021 6:23 utc | 122

The Covid story is far from over and I think the lies around it continue to be told and exposed for the crimes against humanity they represent....that genie will not stay in the bottle and will overturn the current liars at some point, IMO....its just a matter of time unless the perps go poor loser nuclear on us all.

This is profoundly true, and some of those who have promoted these crimes would do well to lower their profile significantly.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 25 2021 7:48 utc | 135

@4 lex talionis
The German political culture is more collectivist than in other Western countries and the heads on top play a much smaller role than. let`s say, in the USA. [Merkel is an exception to the rule. In fact her long time at the helm in combination with her at least at the end semi-authoritarian leadership style has brought the political system of Germany at the edge of capsizing.] I see Scholz as a transitional figure and expect him to be a weak chancellor who will generally just follow the current.

The dominating party in the new coalition are the Greens. Why they did nominally not win the most votes (which is why the don`t get the office of chansellor) they nevertheless have the media, academics, artists etc. on their side. They determine the "narrative" and will thus be largely able to set the agenda.

(By the way, Baerbock is not the head of the Greens. The Greens officially have a double-head: Baerbock and Habeck. Baerbock is just the pretty face who had been put in the center of attention during the election campgaign. Habeck is the more influential of the two.)

Posted by: m | Nov 25 2021 8:08 utc | 136

In my post @126 I forgot to mention that the title of the recommended video is 'Miracle in Japan'.

Posted by: Peter Schmidt | Nov 25 2021 8:18 utc | 137

Short story on American exceptionalism, kinda triggered by the Gruff/Patroklos holiday mashup:
Sitting in a bar in Saigon in 1969 with a bunch of Australian soldiers (trying to keep up with them on beers and failing miserably).
We got righteously snakkered and me and my guys had to spend the night in a brothel because we missed curfew at our base.
I remember having the thought about the Aussies, ‘What are you guys even doing here in Vietnam, it’s none of your
business’. I didn’t even entertain the thought that it was none of my country’s business either.

Of course I was young then with underdeveloped frontal lobes but that’s just one example of American exceptionalism. It was all I had heard up to that time. It’s a pervasive myth and it persists today, although no longer in me. It’s very effective propaganda for the US elite and needs to be challenged into oblivion, both for the lasting good of Americans and the rest of the world.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Nov 25 2021 8:39 utc | 138

Tom_Q_Collins @ 108:

It was on the most recent MoA Week in Review (Nov 21) comments forum that VK's behaviour in posting long comments containing entire lengthy articles cut and pasted in full along with the link to the source took him/her over the red line. I believe the offending comment got scrubbed so VK went ahead and reposted the entire article again - in six instalments! B got rid of those as well.

James @ 133:

Matt infested both the Kremlin Stooge and Off-Guardian and the tactics he used at both were the same. That is how I suspected VK might be trolling MoA b/c some of VK's comments were starting to resemble aspects of Matt's modus operandi.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 25 2021 8:40 utc | 139

William Gruff #43

If I am right, and we don't see people melting down over the verdict and vocally protesting that the murderers are innocent even though the jury has spoken, then we can clearly see who the crazy delusional fucks are in America.

Just wait until those Russians send convoys of relief into Donbass and Lugansk. Or the Chinese jets do a demonstrative fly over Taiwan. Then you will see crazy delusional - for the umpteenth time ;)

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 25 2021 8:41 utc | 140

@136 Peter Schmidt

Funny thing, I just downloaded that one:

Miracle in Japan

Antivirals in Japan Ivermectin allowed as a treatment on August 13

Doctors can prescribe without restrictions

People can buy it legally from India

-- Dr. Haruo Ozaki, Chairman of the Tokyo Medical Association

As John Campbell points out, this is no sideshow - the head of the Japanese medical establishment is speaking here and formally affirming that ivermectin is free of restriction and may be widely used to combat the virus. A nation of 126 million people take note and act accordingly.

And after that, all anyone needs to be able to do is understand a graphic - where the curve of infection in Japan plummets - I mean, simply fucking plummets, all the way to the bottom of the axis of the chart. All the way down.

While the US and UK curves stay up there in the realm of death and misery - high on the chart - Japan just falls, to practically nothing, within a couple of weeks of lifting the ban-hammer off of ivermectin.


The moral of the story - killing two birds, perhaps, with one stone - is "ban-hammer bad" and "ivermectin good".


Posted by: Grieved | Nov 25 2021 8:50 utc | 141

William Gruff #67

What does that make Australia? America's jockstrap.

Comrade Gruff, America has absolutely no need for such a device. We can offer you a wide band aid to do the job.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 25 2021 8:51 utc | 142

Hope @ 127:

Australians also celebrate Chinese New Year (or Asian or Lunar New Year as it's now been renamed). Mainstream news media here now regularly post information on when Ramadan begins and ends. Diwali gets regular mentions too and it is probably just a matter of time when Persian New Year gets added to the list of celebrations and observances.

For William Gruff's amusement some Australians also celebrate Christmas in July if the winter weather where they live gets cold enough that snow starts falling regularly. :-)

Posted by: Jen | Nov 25 2021 8:55 utc | 143

@Patroklos #74
You really are a whiny bitch.
Of the first 100 posts, you put up 12.
Clearly MoA is full of something - and it isn't my posting.
Nor am I the least bit impressed with your memory. If you had half a brain, you might remember the many times I have excoriated Gruff of technotopianism, for China uber alles, and for any number of other things.
Equally, if you paid any attention to anything beyond pandering your prejudices, you might remember the Gruff is, I believe, an American teaching in China.
I've visited Australia 3 times in my life - there are many decent ones, some not so decent, but the entire pack of Australians in the Aussie government are American bitches. I don't necessarily blame them - look at what happened to Gough Whitlam.
But then again, the fascism under display in Australia as we speak is a wonder to behold.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 25 2021 9:00 utc | 144

More whines: b save us from Gruff's hateful posts.
It is utterly amazing how thin-skinned, helpless and simultaneously desirous of being a teacher's pet/authoritarian's bitch.
I say this offensively precisely because it is completely clear that so many of you liberal wankers have no capability to take criticism or the minute adversity of a non-conforming, rude poster.
Where were all the fucking whines when Circe was talking about how XX should die and what not?
The hypocrisy is sickening.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 25 2021 9:03 utc | 145

@143 c1ue

Hey, I want to be a whiny bitch too. No fair you give all the credit to Patroklos.

And anyway, the fascism under display in Australia is very clearly not something that that any of our Oz colleagues in these threads enjoy. They, like all of us in the five eyes, are struggling to figure out how to fight it. And the fight has already begun in Australia, unlike in the US where we still marshal our outrage.

There's a war to fight. Division won't help. Whining will not help. Nor will bitching about whining. Glad you called one of those things out ;)

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 25 2021 9:11 utc | 146

@144 c1ue

It's the division that's sickening. Everything that triggers us can be let go of - one will notice that nothing changed by so doing. And nothing was achieved by holding onto it. Wasted energy. Bigger things matter.

You may be tilting at windmills.

No response necessary. We can let all of that go.

A dream within a dewdrop.

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 25 2021 9:18 utc | 147

Charles Peterson #112

A lot of stuff I've missed about US, Ukraine, and Russia

Thank you for that link. I actually think that Burns wasted his time and Biden is not going to listen. Burns was really a show job in a perpetual forked tongue USA dialog. This is not about to change from the USA until someone shoves a fist into their face, metaphorically speaking. It has been going on for at least the past four presidencies and particularly escalated from O'bummer on.

Methinks they want Russia to move militarily asap but have been somewhat stymied by Putin's latest decree that is focused on economic and material aid. This will result in Zelensky escalating his military assaults using Turkish drones just to drive wedges. And that is what this combat zone is about - perpetual wedging.

This really has to continue before Zelensky either gets thrown out of office or - more likely IMO - the nazis stage a total coup. Yes all supposition but that's my take for now.

The USA is not going to stop its belligerence anytime soon anywhere on this planet.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 25 2021 9:27 utc | 148

c1ue #143

But then again, the fascism under display in Australia as we speak is a wonder to behold.

I'll drink to that, but then it has never been too far below the surface and I have had some mighty close and uncomfortable scrapes with their organisation in my youth. Australia has a mighty socialist tradition and has been a strong support of many leading socialist nations in the past. I am very proud of that true left history and highly respectful of its considerable achievements.

Right now there is an totalitarian alliance in place between the supremacist medical profession and the political class and it is not a pretty sight.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 25 2021 9:36 utc | 149

Grieved #140

Thank you for that, I have the utmost respect for John Campbell, he skates a fine line to promote knowledge and avoid the censorship. Such carefully crafted words. He is worth a daily fly by to see what he has revealed next.

I have not forgotten the dialog re Mass Formation etc. Over the next few days I will be reading "The Mechanism Demands a Mysticism" by Thomas Brophy PhD., to se what light he may shed on our human condition. He has only written two books and his first, The Origin Map, was astounding.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 25 2021 9:45 utc | 150

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2021 7:32 utc | 129

Got to see them there on my first visit to that joint, at first I was not sure what was happening with me until I noticed that the floor was bouncing on some sort of springs. Another one hard to forget at the Commodore is Tina Turner, just when she began her come back, sitting down at a table having a beer with a nice lady that on top got the tickets for free. She was wearing her cave woman attire, I was truly shocked, did not expect that explosion and energy, unforgettable. So distant in time, more than in miles or kilometers, Canada was a bit more rational and adopted Napoleon's system ;-)

Posted by: Paco | Nov 25 2021 9:52 utc | 151

James@129 - Agreed.

I am using the script that someone provided a long time ago that allows one to block users they don't wish to read, so generally I don't see the posts of those posters that annoy me.

Last night I happened to be enjoying a beer at the local pub and reading on my phone, where I don't have the pleasure of using the script.

By the way, I wasn't advocating for banning anyone, I just wish people could state their opposing opinion/idea without insulting their opposition, or just generally acting like an asshole. I will genuinely welcome an opposing opinion as long as the person making it can do so without calling me names or insulting my intelligence.

In virtually every thread at MOA there are gems, but it does get tiresome wading through all the bullshit to find them.


Posted by: David F | Nov 25 2021 10:08 utc | 152

Great b! You've banned one of the last worth reading commenters here. Vk might be annoying at times, but he still offers good content from a interesting perspective. Your blog is going down the toilet...self-inflicted!

Posted by: v | Nov 25 2021 10:56 utc | 153

I've posted some more about those who rule us all over on the exhausted Week in Review thread.

There is some very interesting material there:

The nature of the rules-based system

The Windsor family has over the last century managed to exempt itself from a law requiring the wills of British citizens to ordinarily be made public.

How the Windsors utilise the public interest:

Teck’s will was kept secret in order to hush up a sex scandal. Mary persuaded a judge to keep it closed as it is understood to have shown that he had bequeathed prized family jewels to a mistress.

Who decides on the public interest:

only the attorney general can speak, as a matter of public law, to the public interest

The mushroom strategy:

The official publication of the list discloses for the first time the extent to which the secret legal procedure has been used – without the knowledge of the public – to conceal the wills of even minor members of the royal family.

Favours done for favourites:

One name on the original list released by the court was Leopold de Rothschild, Edward VII’s close friend, suggesting his will was made secret in 1917. It is unclear how the British banker would have been able to achieve this, given the exemption was supposed to apply to senior royals.

The worldwide reach of the rules-based system:

[Prince Georg Valdemar Carl Axel] was born and died in Denmark, and it is not clear why an application to seal his will was made in London.

Posted by: John Cleary | Nov 25 2021 11:22 utc | 154

lex talionis @98: "Perhaps. What do I really know about socialism? It was stupid of me to have even waded into the topic."

Stupid? Not at all. And you probably know more about socialism than you realize. For instance, in the "Biden Oil Backfire" thread I mention how my local, publicly owned municipal power utility was directed by the citizens to build a solar farm to test out providing the city with some of its electricity (which snowballed into five solar farms producing 300% of the city's demand, but that is getting off topic). With this kind of influence over major operational decisions available to stakeholders (the city's residents), how would you compare this socialist electricity with capitalist electric utilities like California's PG&E, Duke Energy, or the negligent and rapacious businesses in Texas that left everyone in the cold last year? I pay less per kWh than the customers of any of those businesses, and get more reliable service, so what does private ownership of the utilities get for those businesses' customers? Discussions of these issues are accessible even to people who've never read Marx.

But then there is the issue of "freedom" that you raised, and it deserves discussion too. If you want to go with publicly owned municipal power then what about my freedom to own the power utility and make some easy guaranteed profits off of you? With me owning the utility you would not have the freedom to say how that utility is run because that would conflict with my freedom to run the business as I wish, which is the owner's prerogative.

Then, of course, there is the freedom in the glossy brochures that the CIA uses to recruit their death squads. In Afghanistan the Mujaheddin were literally recruited with promises of the freedom to "marry" and rape their nine year old nieces (or nephews, I suppose). CIA recruitment in Libya was boosted by the promise of having the freedom to own darker skinned Libyans as literal slaves.

These definitions of freedom were probably not what most Americans would expect, but these really are the kinds of freedoms that socialism deprives people of. Everyone's definition of freedom is personal and subjective. You have to keep this in mind when discussing "freedom" because if you are not specific about what "freedom" you are talking about then you are almost certainly going to end up with communication failures.

My experience in China was that they had too much personal freedom. People had the right to drive through an intersection even when the light was red! I guess the ChiComs have cracked down a little on that freedom lately so traffic flows a little better now, but it was as free as the Wild West for a while. But people in China still have the freedom to make copies of DVDs they own and sell them on the street corner and stuff like that. I certainly felt freer in China than in the USA. The freedoms the Chinese had been cracking down on the most when I was last there were ones related to food and product safety, and being that I wasn't trying to sell dangerous foods or products I couldn't see a problem with that.

I really cannot think of any other word whose definition is abused as much as "freedom", so it is a term I think people need to really be careful with and be specific about.

In any case, don't hesitate to discuss socialism just because you haven't read Marx. Extensive background reading is helpful but is not at all a prerequisite.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 25 2021 11:23 utc | 155

Posted by: Peter Schmidt | Nov 25 2021 8:18 utc | 136

Hmm, not really.

Japan always had a fairly liberal regime when it comes to import alt. medicines for personal use. There is currently nothing preventing anybody importing Ivermectin.

Dr Haruo Ozaki suggested in his August 13 press conference (a) some more attention should be paid to Ivermectin clinical studies and (b) that patients are given informed consent (advice) to eventually get that drug themselves. It is not an officially approved medicine for this disease. Eventually individual hospitals may use this drug for treatment (on individual, no official base). The treatment is not covered by health insurance. Many relatively mild patients are treated at home, btw. See this fact-check, for example.

On the other side, to date close to 75% of the population is vaccinated and yes, the pandemic numbers are currently very good (it has been much better that the West since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic). Japan has a rather healthy population and a good health care system.
And nearly everybody here (still) wears masks.

Posted by: phiw13 | Nov 25 2021 12:00 utc | 156

Patroklos @114: "@Gruff, happy to let go of my anger and apologize if anything I said upset you or anyone else here."

No need to check your privilege on my account. I don't upset very easily. I'll admit that vk got me upset, but that was completely unrelated to the insults he was throwing about. That poster was one that prominently identified as Marxist, easily counting as the most visible Marxist in these fora, but then in the Rittenhouse thread he goes entirely off the rails with irrational and, most importantly to me, highly non-Marxist emotionally based nonsense. People looked to that poster for a Marxist perspective and his rants in that thread were giving people a very wrong impression of Marxism. In fact, that particular direction vk was going in is what has derailed and neutered the American Left. In emotionally charged issues like the Kenosha events narratives can be slipped into people's consciousness "below the radar" and bypassing rational evaluation, so it is alarming to see a supposed Marxist pushing very anti-Marxist narratives in that sort of environment.

It takes stuff like that to get me upset, so if you ever need to vent then know that calling me "alt-right" or whatever is safe to do and would not cause me any harm.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 25 2021 12:02 utc | 157

Posted by: phiw13 | Nov 25 2021 12:00 utc | 155

BTW , list of approved medicines in Japan (Government agency website).

Posted by: phiw13 | Nov 25 2021 12:07 utc | 158

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 25 2021 11:23 utc | 154

I really cannot think of any other word whose definition is abused as much as "freedom"

Freedom fries and freedom gas.

Posted by: Paco | Nov 25 2021 13:13 utc | 159

As an Aussie, it bothers me greatly that none of you admitted to our favorite holiday, Dropbear day.

We catch an unsuspecting loudmouthed Seppo, not hard because there is usually a metric ton of them sprouting off nonsense about how they are so great and powerful. We then challenge them to a dropbear fight.

Of course they don't believe dropbears are real, so they accept.

We pop them into a cage with two of the buggers and let em rip. Doesnt take long, usually about 30 seconds, but we leave them in there for half an hour or so to clean up all the mess.

Then we pop over to the pub and laugh about how 'exceptional' they were.

Posted by: JustAnotherAussie | Nov 25 2021 13:22 utc | 160

Posted by: Peter Schmidt | Nov 25 2021 7:02 utc | 126

Yes that is an excellent and very informative Uttar Pradesh, India their most populated state distributed for free Invermectine...cases dropped like flies...

Posted by: notlurking | Nov 25 2021 13:39 utc | 161

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 25 2021 3:15 utc | 102
Nailed it again Grieved. thank you
Larry, my very good friend and neighbor, the cattle (cow-calf) farmer, Trumper, big blue team hater, continues to get bad news on his health: heart, kydneys, bladder and more. So our conversations have added the topic of death-- our own-- which has enriched the already full spectrum of topics and leaves us even more appreciative of each other when we part. His rusty truck still carries the old bumper sticker "Trump! Make the liberals scream!" But, more and more, when we do talk politics we step back from the team hatred and focus on the way we-- the peons-- are being played. We usually end our conversations with an acknowledgement that it's up to us to figure out how to live. We fix the fences. We put food on the table. We take care of each other. Not them.
I give thanks for all you posters and for b who runs this site.

Posted by: migueljose | Nov 25 2021 13:45 utc | 162

I see “vk” and censorship are still on people’s minds…mine too.

A few more thought:

>> Just before being banned vk was openly baiting people with obnoxious comments,

I interpreted that as his way of saying FU to most people ganging up on him.


Before that, when b told him not to post long comments, vk broke up the comments. Giving vk (like anyone else) the benefit of the doubt, I suspect he thought that was an acceptable response, because at least then each comment is reduced to a narrower subject and lets others respond more narrowly. Yes, I know that’s not what b wanted. But, I don’t think vk did it in bad faith.


I see “link spam” is still a meme here. Links are useful. Usually he gave them some context. Nobody’s claimed a commercial angle. So, calling it “spam” is unfair or at least subjective. If it’s merely “subjective”, what is wrong with you people that you applaud banning someone that others expressed interest in reading?


Contrary to someone’s claim, vk didn’t post huge portions of text from the linked article. Per my observation, he provided his own summation.


To repeat an earlier statement I made, it’s not enough to read vk in isolation at his own blog (as one of his critics suggested). This was/is a community where I got to read occasional interaction and “constructive disagreement” between vk, karlof, jk, gruff, rhs, chipnik, psycho, debs, bemildred, grieved, tungsten, several “norway” people, … shit….I can’t remember every name ATM, sorry if I’m not mentioning some of you *frequent* contributors. Even occasional Circe comments (until he became a one-note poster — at which point I just skipped). For me, bouncing people from the bar gives this place a different vibe.


Like someone else mentions above, b should give more leeway to longtime patrons who’ve contributed a lot. Banning vk this quickly tells me b does not respect his readers as much as I presumed. As I rudely discovered at Naked Crap, i now realize my presumption is incorrect.

Posted by: son of spam | Nov 25 2021 13:54 utc | 163

Happy Thanksgiving, to all y'all !

Posted by: librul | Nov 25 2021 14:10 utc | 164

Once, years ago, we had twenty+ mainland Chinese tourists over for dinner. There was a local turkey farm that we used year after year for Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners. The turkey farm had eeeeverything, the full spread. So it was very convenient to serve the Chinese guests a Thanksgiving dinner c/o the local turkey farm.

They were in awe of the size of the cooked turkeys (two), and we didn't even get particularly large ones. Apparently, they don't do turkey in China.

Most interesting was that they brought a translator and he explained to them (in Chinese, of course) the meaning of Thanksgiving. They were breathless with his explanation.

I always wished that I had asked the translator what he had said.
What do you suppose he said?

Posted by: librul | Nov 25 2021 14:45 utc | 165

@uncle tungsten, 56

The following was also published in November 2020 Unexpected detection of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in the pre pandemic period in Italy

The samples date from September 2019 onwards. This suggests searching for an earlier event/causation. What about June/July 2019 when Fort Detrick, the US Bioweapons facility, was closed following the failure to contain biohazardous organisms?

Posted by: cirsium | Nov 25 2021 14:46 utc | 166

@son of spam | Nov 25 2021 13:54 utc | 162

Censorship because of opinions is always wrong. I detested vk's dogmatic posts and skipped almost all of them. I suspect he wasn't quite who he presented himself as being. But I support his right to state his opinions, and others right to counter them. I can see he needed a "holiday" because of the excessive volume, but censorship is a slippery slope that almost always ends badly.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 25 2021 15:10 utc | 167

"The Spilhaus Projection-A World Map According To Fish."

Thanks Karlof1, what an amazing site, er, sight er...

Posted by: Sarlat La Canède | Nov 25 2021 15:21 utc | 168

migueljose @ 161

Nice to hear about some real conversation in meatspace. Sometimes I think that folks get a little too invested in anonymous virtual relationships, and censoring anonymous virtual claptrap seems beyond ironic. On the other hand, there are a few posters around here b should charge for storage.

Posted by: john | Nov 25 2021 15:36 utc | 169

ZH has another posting up about Jamie Dimon and China from which I provide two quotes

The good news for Dimon this morning, as he prepares for his Thanksgiving, it appears his sycophantic bootlicking has worked. As Bloomberg reports, at a briefing in Beijing on Thursday, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian said he “noticed the sincere reflection” by Dimon.

“We believe this is the right attitude,” he said.

Let's all give thanks for China!
As we detailed yesterday, this past week saw the Basel-based Financial Stability Board release its latest annual rankings of systematically important banks. JPMorgan was moved back up to the highest tier and now stands alone as the world's most important bank. (Chinese banks which are generally bigger have explicit state support and as such as broadly viewed as less risky).

Banking wars anyone? Or is it the civilization war I keep writing about?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 25 2021 16:07 utc | 170

@librul | Nov 25 2021 14:10 utc | 163

Happy ลอยกระทง (last week)

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 25 2021 16:13 utc | 171

MoA barflies already know that much of Africa was not affected by Covid because they take Ivermectin on a regular basis. But that information has not been getting broader public attention because.....profit.

The link below to the Mises Institute says to me which US party will win the next US (s)elections

With Low Vaccination Rates, Africa's Covid Deaths Remain Far below Europe and the US

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 25 2021 16:16 utc | 172

@169 Amazing how the potential loss of $20 billion produced the right attitude from Mr. Dimon.
Just a drop in the bucket for JPM (with a $3.8 trillion balance sheet) but still.

Posted by: dh | Nov 25 2021 16:30 utc | 173

Ugly scenes inside the Australian parliament.

Wanna be PM and uber zionist treasurer Joshua Frydenberg "confronts" rebel MP, Bridget Archer see photos:

Meanwhile the Daily Mail tells us Frydenberg "consoles" Archer:

"Bridget Archer was consoled by Treasurer Josh Frydenberg about her decision after voting against the government because Scott Morrison has taken too long to deliver on his promise of creating a corruption watchdog."

Posted by: Paul | Nov 25 2021 16:38 utc | 174

One explanation of the origin of Thanksgiving (USofA).

Here is what I have been taught, and I have always lived in the USofA.

One smaller Native American tribe was been oppressed by a larger Native American tribe.
The pilgrims landed in the territory of the smaller tribe...
who were thankful for the unexpected allies, the pilgrims.

The smaller tribe plus the pilgrims conducted a counter-attack upon the larger tribe
and then celebrated their victory with a collective meal.

Sounds like a familiar scenario, don't you think?

Puts the "Thanksgiving is a celebration of the oppression of white people upon black people"
in a different light.

Posted by: librul | Nov 25 2021 16:46 utc | 175

Research continues -

Combination of iota-carrageenan and xylitol as a potential nasal spray for COVID

Posted by: librul | Nov 25 2021 16:47 utc | 176

@174 Cortes got similar assistance from locals when he marched on Tenochtitlan. They were no doubt impressed by steel, guns and horses.

Posted by: dh | Nov 25 2021 16:52 utc | 177

Jen | Nov 25 2021 4:22 utc | 106
Interesting speculation.

Here is b’s reasoning in his own words:

I have banned "vK" for:
a. repeatedly posting screenspace wasting comments with links to ordinary yahoo level news stories of no interest despite having been warned to not do such.
b. general bad faith trolling of the MoA community (see @117 for an example).
Posted by: b | Nov 22 2021 8:43 utc | 132

I recall one instance of vk posting a long essay in the several years I’ve been here. It happened last weekend ( a link to Michael Roberts blog iirc — thenextrecession ). VK’s response after a warning was to post the same thing again but in six posts instead of one. He then made made a cruel sarcastic remark about scores of people being plowed down in a community parade by an SUV-driving lumpen, bite back I suppose from recent internecine battle here re rittenhouse trial. Childish and provoked people.

Linking to “yahoo level news stories of no interest” and disrespect for barflies, cumulative, without showing propensity to reform...

Posted by: suzan | Nov 25 2021 17:07 utc | 178

Librul@124 - "Thanksgiving is a celebration of the oppression of white people upon black people".

What the hell are you talking about?

I have lived in the US for 52 years and I have never heard any reference to the above nor any reference to the pilgrims being part of an alliance with one tribe versus another and having a feast to celebrate their victory.

I highly suspect both of these things are figments of someone's imagination.

Posted by: David F | Nov 25 2021 17:16 utc | 179

@Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 25 2021 16:13 utc | 170

Read about Loy Krathong, thanks.

The literal meaning of ‘Loy’ in Thai language is ‘to float’ whereas ‘Krathong’ means ‘a small container’ which is authentically made of a piece of banana-tree trunk which contains a candle, incense and flowers. During this festival the the floating Krathong symbolises a person willingly letting go of hatred and anger.

Loy Krathong is an annual festival celebrated in Thailand with great vigour and zeal in November full moon to mark the end of rainy season. On the night of the festival, the river lits with the lighted Krathongs which are floated by the Thai people. This festival signifies the purification ceremony to enlighten the mind.

Couldn't we all use a purification ceremony.

Posted by: librul | Nov 25 2021 17:20 utc | 180

>> Sometimes I think that folks get a little too invested in anonymous virtual relationships,

Speaking for myself, I value more highly what I learned from pseudonymous and anonymous posters than what I learned in meatspace (including university).

One story at a time, I learned mostly through online forums how western “news” and “history” are completely full of shit.

In my first few decades of near-consciousness, I learned little about the real world within meatspace, because it turns out it’s hard to find people in meatspace who aren’t effectively propagandized by the effective propaganda. Without reading the words of pseudonymous or anonymous people in forums like this, I’d hold the same views as 30 years ago and cheer on the next western offensive war.

If nothing else, I credit vk with making me doubt the ZBig story that the USSR disintegrated because of the money and lives spent defending the socialist Afghan government against Western religious mercs. I’m not saying I understand what really happened. But, in retrospect, that Zbig story makes no sense. After all, Russia twice rebounded after losing half its territory and 10%+ of its people to Western incursions. By comparison, the life and treasure Russia spent in Afghanistan was a flesh wound. I’m sure there’s more I internalized from vk but can’t articulate.

Oh, Paveway IV, wherever you are: Happy Thanksgiving, dude. (You weren’t banned but went quiet.). You are missed, too.

Posted by: son of spam | Nov 25 2021 17:25 utc | 181

a voice of sanity on the coronavirus has been banned? that's too bad. one of the few whose views on the virus i didn't just scroll immediately through.

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Nov 25 2021 17:27 utc | 182

@178 He's probably referring to the Wampanoag and the Narangasset....

"Mayflower Voyage, Community War" by Nathaniel Philbrick is a very good book on the subject..

Posted by: dh | Nov 25 2021 17:41 utc | 183

@Posted by: David F | Nov 25 2021 17:16 utc | 178

Librul@124 - "Thanksgiving is a celebration of the oppression of white people upon black people".

What the hell are you talking about?

You should be thankful that you don't read/watch the MSM.


You continued your post with: " nor any reference to the pilgrims being part of an alliance with one tribe versus another and having a feast to celebrate their victory."

Can't explain why your history teaching is different from mine. But in all fairness to you the history of Thanksgiving
is still being researched to this day and there are variations.

“We provide the context about what is happening behind those relationships in 1621, as well as the roots and evolution of the holiday,” says Begley. “We’re also talking about gratitude. In 1621, these two groups who couldn’t speak the same language came together in Patuxet-Plymouth for three days and were working together on diplomacy and forging an alliance. For that moment, it was working. Those people in 1621 couldn’t predict what would happen in the future. We look at that moment as the inspiration for what becomes the national holiday.”

How to Tell the Thanksgiving Story on Its 400th Anniversary

Scholars are unraveling the myths surrounding the 1621 feast, which found the Pilgrims and the Wampanoag cementing a newly established alliance

At the time, the two disparate groups were attempting to find common ground. In April 1621, both had signed a treaty pledging to come to the aid of the other in case of attack. After losing nearly half of their settlers to sickness during their first winter in America, the English were teetering on extinction. The Wampanoag weren’t far from that reality themselves: Between 1616 and 1619, diseases introduced by European colonizers killed up to 90 percent of New England’s Native population in an epidemic now referred to as the Great Dying. Greatly weakened, the tribe also needed help fending off incursions from the Narragansett, a rival Native group.

That fall of 1621, the feast’s wary attendees were still learning about each other, says Donna Curtin, executive director of Pilgrim Hall, America’s oldest continuously operated public museum.

“These two groups very recently formed an alliance and are still getting acquainted with each other,” she explains. “You have to look at this with diplomatic overtones. In today’s Thanksgiving tradition, most people really don’t look at that aspect of it. This was a way to cement this very fresh alliance between the English and ... the leader of the many tribal elements [Massasoit] represented.”

Posted by: librul | Nov 25 2021 17:53 utc | 184

Those last three paragraphs @183 were supposed to be in blockquotes.

Posted by: librul | Nov 25 2021 17:54 utc | 185

Re "thanksgiving", here's a link to descendants of the natives who encountered the invaders at Plymouth Rock, a bit of history now emerging. National Day of Mourning

When Ronnie Raygun issued a Thanksgiving proclamation back in the day, I decided to read the Mayflower Diaries written by the first governor, Bradford(?) Several points straight from the horse's mouth:
1. Plymouth Plantation was a commercial enterprise: several ships stopped by after the original landing. It was NOT self-sufficient settlers living isolated in the wilderness
2. The original colonists were NOT fleeing religious persecution. They left from the Netherlands, their motivation was, the country was too urban and liberal, they did NOT want their kids to be polluted by such an atmosphere. Kind of like the Taliban, except that the Taliban are not genocidal settlers.
3. Early on they mounted a cannon to intimidate the Native Americans.
4. The only reference to Thanksgiving was during a war where they burned alive an entire native town, and the settlers gave thanksgiving to the Lord for delivering these hostiles into their hands
5. The history of the conquest of New England is one of mass slaughter. The one guy who thought they should "buy" land from the natives and kind of observe legal niceties, Roger Williams, got expelled from the colony. He wasn't exactly an anti-imperialist, but certainly was the best of the lot. (This part was not in the Mayflower Diaries...)

They say the best way to understand history is to talk to the victims, whose voices are erased. But amazingly you can also learn a lot by listening to the colonizers and hearing first hand what they thought they were doing.

This approach also works on the US Civil War history: just listen to the leaders of the Confederacy, and they told you exactly what the War was about: SLAVERY. 40 years later shame-faced propagandists changed the narrative to an abstract struggle over states' rights. And so the bloodiest war in US history gets reduced to an abstract disagreement over political philosophy. People fight over REAL stuff, not abstract philosophical differences. And they don't kill hundreds of thousands of people over such differences. Or as Trump said, "Steal the oil", as opposed to The Rules Based International Order.

Posted by: Sin Fronteras | Nov 25 2021 18:08 utc | 186

I see “vk” and censorship are still on people’s minds…mine too.

Posted by: son of spam | Nov 25 2021 13:54 utc | 162

That's because in banning vk, the site owner deployed a moving goal post which made his decision seem arbitrary, unjust and disingenuous. Previously, b. had warned to not copy and paste source material but to use links in the interest of saving screen space. vk was meticulous in complying to this rule and yet, was banned for spamming links to articles that were considered mainstream. This leaves me incredulous since b., himself, often links to MSM. I especially appreciated vk's curated roundups. He did the dirty work of wading into the sewage to cherrypick items that are of interest to like minded people that come to MOA. Another reason given for the ban was vk had presumably made a crass joke to bait other posters. If that is the case, all the regular blowhards here, which there are many, should be on the chopping block. All said and done, vk was a controversial figure and garnered many anti-fans. I suspect this is the real reason he was banned. Sadly, the bullies have won.

Posted by: Jun | Nov 25 2021 18:17 utc | 187

Since it’s an open thread and comments are still being made...
A problem with banning is that it’s a one way street, no returning.
Consider a rich guy being pulled over for speeding. The penalty is a fine. But a fine is not the punishment for him that
it would be for the average Joe. No, he just zooms off again and has his attorney take car of things. The rich SOB has money,
Joe does not. But what they have in common is 24 hours in a day. What if the rich guy was made to sit by the side of the road
for an hour or two and watch others go by? That would get his attention much more than a fine.

Sure, the analogy will be imperfect as all analogies are, but apply that same logic to the recent banning of vk. What if vk was
given 30 days on the comment sidelines rather than being banned? If the banning was temporary it would have been more
palatable and, I would argue, more effective. No need even to go to 3-strikes thinking or progressive penalties. A kid touches a
hot stove, gets a burned finger. Touches it again, gets a burned finger. Soon kid stays away from the stove.

Comment moderation takes some effort and it doesn’t seem to me that it would be that hard to make a ban temporary. The authoritarian inclined will find all kinds of objections, but it would a fairer way to deal with ‘rule breakers’. It would also give
the judge, b in this case, leeway for a bad call.

Vk was a load in some ways, but perhaps not incorrigible and rehabilitation is always better than punishment.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Nov 25 2021 18:28 utc | 188

@186 Just a minor correction. The Puritans were facing religious persecution in England which is why they moved to Leiden, Holland. But they weren't happy there either. Especially when cannabis was legalized (I made the last bit up).

Posted by: dh | Nov 25 2021 18:31 utc | 189

Posted by: Boss tweet | Nov 25 2021 2:54 utc | 99

Thats not nice. I enjoyed reading his point of view. True, I have not had time to read Das Kapital, so I am no expert. His posts are very thoughtful.

Posted by: Calgarian | Nov 25 2021 18:31 utc | 190

I read many comments regarding vk banning. Thanks Suzan (comment 178). I don't think I can judge any of the commenters here, but I do like this blog and I read it everyday. comments, I just skim through. So perhaps, please ignore my above comment.

Posted by: Calgarian | Nov 25 2021 18:48 utc | 191

Chris Floyd

a terrorist hit--like any illicit high--doesn't last long. You always need another fix. Especially when your economy is sinking beneath the weight of rampant cronyism, corruption, poverty and inequality.

Pandemic, America's Final Solution?

Monday, October 20, 2008
So What Were Top Military Commanders From The US and Europe Doing at the Trudeau Institute?

Posted by: denk | Nov 25 2021 19:04 utc | 192

@ Jun 187: nicely put and quite right

@c1ue: yeah I'll cop the 'whiney bitch' rebuke. Something about the way Gruff framed his put down got my hackles up, but I dragged you into it unfairly. I should have turned the other cheek and laughed it off. I like your posts, so apologies to you.

@Grieved and librul: yeah we could all really use some of that Loy Krathong. It's been an exhausting year.

Peace and goodwill to all.

Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 25 2021 19:06 utc | 193

We now have an admission of direct CIA involvement in the Hong Kong color revolution attempt--Mark Simon:

"Amy Pat Wai-fan and Lai Yun-long, attackers of then-Global Times reporter Fu Guohao at the Hong Kong International Airport in August 2019, were found guilty of rioting and other crimes, and were sentenced to 51 months and 63 months in prison, respectively, in January. Later, the two appealed the conviction to the Hong Kong High Court.

"On Thursday, Lai withdrew his appeal, but shouted, 'I was ordered to do it by US spy Mark Simon! I have wronged Fu Guohao! I apologize to the 1.4 billion Chinese people!'" [My Emphasis]

The article notes that both defendants attempted to use the "I was only following orders" defense, which as we all know won't work. However, their testimony does reveal the amount of conformity indoctrinated into the protesters by their CIA handlers so they unthinkingly commit acts of terrorism.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 25 2021 19:28 utc | 194

The discussion on Australia got me remembering two very good books on the Diggers which told their story in their own words through their diaries and letters- The Broken Years: Australian Soldiers in the Great War by Bill Gammage and The Anzacs by Patsy Adam-Smith.

To return to the present day, have barflies seen the following cries for international help from Australians

I followed the demonstrations of the Gilets Jaunes so I am used to seeing peaceful protesters assaulted by the forces of "law and order". What is new is seeing officials referring to The New World Order in their public pronouncements.

Posted by: cirsium | Nov 25 2021 21:19 utc | 195

@Patrokpos #193
Fair enough, and no apology required.
The sons of bitches are out there, but it isn’t regular people like all of us on MoA.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 25 2021 21:31 utc | 196

@ Posted by: Jen | Nov 25 2021 4:22 utc | 106

What a almost great analysis I agree with everything except the last half of the last sentence. Good comment thanks.

Posted by: D.G. | Nov 25 2021 21:48 utc | 197

@ Posted by: waynorinorway | Nov 25 2021 7:25 utc | 129

“No way..”

I suppose when it comes down to it We, The Many, are a lot more forgiving than those who impugn their mores upon Us.
What is known as Projection.

Is there a memo I missed about b doing what HE thinks is right about HIS blog?

Are powers thinking of throwing Him into jail too?

Like Craig Murray - Will be freed after his political incarceration on 30th. St Andrew’s day! Coincidentally. Typical blunt DS MO they got him locked up. He will be a greater force for Independence now.

We are the Many. ¡No Pasaran!

Posted by: D.G | Nov 25 2021 22:09 utc | 198

cirsium #166

The following was also published in November 2020 Unexpected detection of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in the pre pandemic period in Italy

The samples date from September 2019 onwards. This suggests searching for an earlier event/causation. What about June/July 2019 when Fort Detrick, the US Bioweapons facility, was closed following the failure to contain biohazardous organisms?

Thank you for that paper. I am fairly confident that it was circulating in 2019 and, yes Fort Detrick sticks out more than most due to its abysmal safety record over the preceding years and the final decision to shut it down until remedial engineering and staff malpractice culture were remediated. Staff from those facilities move about the world for research activity and conferences and are a possible vector. I understand there is a US funded research lab or two in Europe (other than the infamous Georgian one).

However one cannot dismiss the minks and the many other factory farmed animals that we humans compress into close quarters. Some global geo mapping of outbreak centers with animal husbandry and bio-weapon research labs with blood analysis from 2019 stores might reveal coincidence sufficient to warrant further investigation. All countries need to submit to forensic analysis of their blood and tissue banks simply to inform us all. I don't expect to see that in the UK and USA (Oz will obey whatever command they issue) and I am sure there would be much reluctance elsewhere as well.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 25 2021 22:21 utc | 199

On weapons laboratories throughout our planet.

This report from New Eastern Outlook is informative.

Before the coronavirus, Washington consistently ignored statements by official authorities in Russia, China, and the CIS states regarding the Pentagon’s network of military biolaboratories. The United States reportedly has 1,495 biological laboratories in 25 countries and regions, including the Middle East, Africa, Southeast Asia, and the former Soviet Union, that are not accountable to the governments of the countries where they operate and operate with a lack of transparency. In Ukraine alone, the US has opened 16 biological laboratories, some of which have seen large-scale outbreaks of infectious diseases. According to USA Today, hundreds of accidental human contacts with deadly microorganisms have occurred in biological laboratories in the US and abroad since 2003 to the present. These contacts can lead to the infection with any lethal virus from such laboratories and then spread to the population and provoke an epidemic. And at this point it is appropriate to recall that the extremely dangerous strain of avian influenza H5N1 was bred in laboratory conditions by the Dutch scientist Ron Fouchier together with scientists from the University of Wisconsin-Madison in the United States.

Despite the fruitless efforts of the US and British propaganda machine in recent years, trying to accuse Russia of allegedly using Novichok biological weapons (BW), in particular against the Skripals or Navalny, it is now glaringly obvious that this Russophobic campaign was false from the start and had the main goal of avoiding accusations against London and Washington of developing and using biological weapons, including the use of numerous secret biolaboratories.

We should not delude ourselves to believe for one second that this not about genocide as evidenced by "Colonel Vasily Prozorov, a former officer of the central apparatus of the SSU, also spoke on a YouTube channel about the fact that the US Department of Defense, using Ukraine, is preparing a biological weapon of targeted action that could hit all members of the Eastern Slavic ethnic group. He presented a number of documents regarding a range of projects in biolaboratories in Ukraine, referred to as the “Ukrainian project.” These documents show that the leaders of these projects are in fact representatives of the US Department of Defense. The former colonel of the Ukrainian special services stressed that for the US, Ukraine is the ideal place to create weapons against the East Slavic ethnic group."

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 25 2021 23:16 utc | 200

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