Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 11, 2021

Why Do Editors Seek 'Dark Sides' Of China?

There seems to be an inflationary fascination with supposedly 'dark sides' of China:

The 'dark sides' of China meme did not only start after China had send the goddess Chang'e and Yutu the jade rabbit to the far side of the moon to look for the elixir of life.

There are quite a number of previous occurrences.

One wonders how such 'dark side' and 'weaponizing' memes happen ...

Posted by b on October 11, 2021 at 15:35 UTC | Permalink

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@Posted by: DB | Oct 12 2021 9:40 utc | 94

If you look into the comments on the most recent article someone posted that the person who runs the site is in the hospital receiving cancer treatment, hence the lack of updates for the last few weeks.

Posted by: Krungle | Oct 12 2021 12:40 utc | 101

Posted by: Krungle | Oct 12 2021 12:40 utc | 99

"...the person who runs the site is in the hospital receiving cancer treatment"

Dang. :(

Here's hoping everything goes well for B.

Posted by: Misotheist | Oct 12 2021 13:13 utc | 102

here is the Dark Side of China:

Posted by: Grishka | Oct 12 2021 13:56 utc | 103

@Posted by: Misotheist | Oct 12 2021 13:13 utc | 100

I was referring to the person who runs, not B.

Posted by: Krungle | Oct 12 2021 14:08 utc | 104

Posted by: Misotheist | Oct 12 2021 11:46 utc | 96

An interesting analysis. Thank you.

I would suggest we have the most successful colonial enterprise in history on one side - USA, and the most successful peasant revolution (with due credit to the few other attempts that got very far) on the other - PRC.

The Chinese have done extremely well, but it is the fecklessness of US "elites" that has that has given them the opportunity to win quickly, we gutted our own economy, and dumbed-down our own citizens, and sold it all down the river to make a few families very rich.

And so we see the fundamental flaw in colonialism, it is essentially predatory, reactionary, and destructive. You won't build a new world with better grifting and pillage opportunities.

Posted by: Bemildred | Oct 12 2021 14:17 utc | 105

I'd say you are free to fly around the US and compare, but, of course, this depends on whether you have a vaccine or not.

Krungle | Oct 12 2021 12:35 utc | 98

unlike China? China lets the unvaccinated go wherever they want?

a kid from China was more than surprised when I asked him if his 12 billion member city has "pick up after your dog" signs in public spaces. probably not surprising that UFO's don't appear in China, neither does Big Foot...and they don't bitch and whine about public health requirements.

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Oct 12 2021 14:49 utc | 106

was referring to the person who runs, not B.

Posted by: Krungle | Oct 12 2021 14:08 utc | 102

Oh. I'm sorry, I'm terribly bad at picking up this/that references, in any language and through any medium, I regularly interpret them wrong.

Posted by: Misotheist | Oct 12 2021 15:09 utc | 107

Are there any major movies or TV shows where the #1 villain, the top bad guy, is Chinese (not Mulan Disney crap, where everyone is Chinese)?

This is from May 2017, but Tom Secker at Spy Culture reviews the CIA's relationship with US television. (tons of info elsewhere on the site on movies and other cultural products. "news" is not the only arena of propaganda, probably not even the most important in the completely illiterate US.)

I'm just curious why the villain cannot be Chinese. In hyperreality, of course it can be. Just ask Wen Ho Lee. But are Americans really so racist that they can't accept an entertainment villain that can't easily pass for "white"? Or does the entertainment industry reinforce racism? Ie, the villain must be someone like the dominant "white" culture, someone Americans would be more likely to trust, so Russians, Germans, etc. are acceptable enemies, esp Russians. double agents are always good. When blacks are heroes, they also get to be villains, as in "Black Panther". Anyone vaguely "Muslim" or "Mexican" can be the villain in certain contexts, top villain, not just the muscle or whatever. Drugs = "Mexicans". Terrorism = "Muslims".

this may be nothing since I watch zero TV these days. But it does seem like the entertainment propaganda is far, far behind the news propaganda on keeping up w/the enemy du jour. i'm curious why.

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Oct 12 2021 15:15 utc | 108

Posted by: Bemildred | Oct 12 2021 14:17 utc | 103

Agree to all.

Money-hoarding and financial shenanigans simply cannot substitute the material economy, no matter which way it's spun, the idea of a post-industrial service economy is an extremely myopic pie-in-the-sky delusion and lie.

Posted by: Misotheist | Oct 12 2021 15:18 utc | 109

Watch out! China's enlisting the power of Nature as Xi addresses the Biodiversity Summit in Kunming:

"When we take care of Nature, Nature rewards us generously; when we exploit Nature ruthlessly, it punishes us without mercy."

"We need to have deep reverence for Nature, respect Nature, follow Nature's laws and protect Nature, so as to build a homeland of harmonious coexistence between man and Nature."

"I wish to announce China's initiative to establish a Kunming Biodiversity Fund and take the lead by investing 1.5 billion RMB yuan to support biodiversity protection in developing countries."

As reported in this item, China has launched a new "effort of building an ecological civilization." It's been 51 years since the first Earth Day was celebrated and numerous conferences dealing with various aspects of the planet and its Nature have occurred, but none has ever seen one of the leading nations declare such an effort and be the first to put the money up to prove it's not BSing around, that it's very earnest in its endeavor. Along with the biodiversity goals, China's being very aggressive in dealing with its carbon pollution as it relates to the 2030 SDGs and also aims at helping other developing nations in that area. Xi outlined what China's doing:

"To achieve its carbon peak and neutrality targets, China will release implementation plans for peaking carbon dioxide emissions in key areas and sectors as well as a series of supporting measures, and will put in place a '1+N' policy framework for carbon peak and carbon neutrality, Xi said.

"Speaking at the summit, Xi said that China will continue to readjust its industrial structure and energy mix, vigorously develop renewable energy, and make faster progress in planning and developing large wind power and photovoltaic bases in sandy areas, rocky areas and deserts.

"The construction of the first phase of projects with an installed capacity of approximately 100 million kilowatts has started in a smooth fashion, said the President."

Most have read about China's power issues as its development has charged forward faster that its ability to produce energy--and not for the first time. But in order to develop a balanced ecological civilization--another unique quest--remaining mindful of Nature and its power is very important as Xi stressed. He also announced:

"China has officially designated its first group of national parks that includes the Three-River-Source National Park, the Giant Panda National Park, the Northeast China Tiger and Leopard National Park, the Hainan Tropical Forests National Park, and the Wuyishan National Park. The protected land area is 230,000 square kilometers and it covers nearly 30 percent of the key terrestrial wildlife species found in China. In the meantime, acting by the principle of striking a balance between on-site and translocation conservation, China has started building a system of national botanical gardens in places like Beijing and Guangzhou."

And then there's the business/development aspect of the overall initiative with Xi noting

"that the COVID-19 pandemic has cast a shadow over global development and compounded challenges of the UN's 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development. Faced with the dual tasks of economic recovery and environmental protection, developing countries need help and support."

What Xi and China have done at this conference is to place a shot across the West's bow in the latter's attempt to weaponize climate change in order to stunt development via CO2 caps and other devices. It has also taken a giant leap beyond that to propose humans live in balance with Nature--never a Western value, where exploit, exploit, and exploit some more has been the mantra for the past 600+ years going back to the first attempts at Enclosure.

IMO, this marks a sea change in the environmental aspects of geopolitics with the Outlaw US Empire has lost a great deal of its leadership stature due to its opposition in dealing with the multifaceted ecological crises and its crazed Anti-Science attitude driven by Big Oil and Big Coal oligarchs. Furthermore, the Empire's Debt Crisis means it can't match China's investment, nor can it initiate its own to compete.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 12 2021 15:33 utc | 110

@ karlof1 | Oct 12 2021 15:33 utc | 108 with the biodiversity conference link and quotes...thanks

Kill them with culture sounds like an Art of War approach....and it will likely work

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 12 2021 15:54 utc | 111

@karlofi1, 108

thanks again for your contributions. your post is the first time to be heard of the climate change agenda as a tactic to stunt the development of the ROTW. it makes perfect sense. not having a reliable energy infrastructure is not just am impediment to development but also is a matter of national security and sovereignty.

before I thought of the climate change agenda as capital looking for a new arena to monopolize, to get on the next rentier frontier. (when ecological rhetoric is not invoked, industry just calls it 'diversification' heh). the two explanations are of course not mutually exclusive. mutually reinforcing in fact.

the IMF and world bank can now cite 'climate change' concerns to reject loan requests for developing necessary energy infrastructure. another tool to stunt others' development. BRI poses a threat to that.

I'm usually averse to talking about the great 'reset' because the libertarian take on that issue is over the top, just sounds like an echo chamber of libertarian weirdness. but the climate change agenda is definitely a thing.

Posted by: mastameta | Oct 12 2021 16:02 utc | 112

John Cleary @76--

Those post-WW2 years that ushered in the most socialist Parliament in UK history is a conflicting mass of contradictions, IMO. The war debts and damage combined with the resistance to free the colonies--in many cases committing Hitlerian atrocities to retain them--make the 1945-1960 years difficult for many to understand, except for the upper crust who had one goal--to preserve their privileges and societal status. Why did the blues of America's Blacks have such a huge influence on UK musicians? The Rock that developed there was rather different from the distinct Rockabilly music that spawned Elvis, Roy Orbison, and Jerry Lee Lewis, and IMO both were related to the domestic economic environment. And the stagnation continued into the 1970s; remember the 3-day work week? I understand Wiki's page on the period is just an extensive outline, but there's an effort to record the political battle between Labour and Tories, although I must admit I've yet to read a comprehensive history of the final unwinding of the British Empire during those post-war years. Any suggestions? There seems to be a parallel of sorts with the downfall of British Labour and that of Soviet Russia; whereas Putin finally managed to resurrect Russia, Labour's 5th Columnists scuttled it to the point where I doubt it will rise from the grave to regain its Post-war Socialist nature--which is a delight for the Royals and Tories.

With the North Sea energy windfall all but gone and inability to compete across the Channel, I see the UK descending to its post-war status, but without all its members as the Union will shatter thanks to the Crown and Tory policies.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 12 2021 16:14 utc | 113

@ Krungle | Oct 12 2021 12:35 utc | 98... good post and analogy.. thank you..

Posted by: james | Oct 12 2021 16:21 utc | 114

The main myths to be propagated by North Atlantisist propaganda news hacks if they want to keep their jobs and 30-shekel in incomes flooding in:
1: China is a bed goy and a terrible place.
2: There was a massacre on Tiananmén square in Bêijing in June 1989.
3: Four commercial aircraftes got high-jacked 911 in US Airspace. By Arabs with boxcutters on commercial flights although they were not on the initial lists of passangers. Two (2) plains causes the perfect collapse of three (3) skyscrapers. A forth plane demolished several buildings inwardly into the Pentagon --without leaving any debris of a Jet airliner.
4: Six (6) million European Jews were killed though being sent into gas chambers and thereupon being cremated in the adjacent ovens.
5: The "Six day war" got started by the Arab armies and the USS "Liberty" downing by Israël never occured.
6: There is true democracy in the US of North A and Britain (both being run by rich aligarks) and no democracu at all in Mainlan China (run by a party where one of eight adults are members and often have highly contested local, regional and national elections).
7. No freedom of speach nor freedom of the press to print contrarian opinions in either Russsia or China.

Posted by: Tollef Ås اس طلف | Oct 12 2021 16:25 utc | 115

@ Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 12 2021 16:14 utc | 111

The Labour Party has nothing to do with the Soviet Union. The first was merely one more tool at the disposal of the British capitalist elite, the second was the true first ever proletarian state.

It's important to remind that the Labour Party was not founded as a socialist party. It arose through a gradual process of amalgamation of unions in the UK through the 19th Century, fruit of the intense industrial development of the British Empire during the Second Industrial Revolution. It is, therefore, a Trade-Unionist party.

It was only after WWII that socialist elements really penetrated in the Labour Party. Before that, the UK had the Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB) - a small, but not insignificant, party member of the Comintern, which tried for many years to penetrate into the Labour Party but was always rejected (for being communists). The immense pressure exerted by a victorious Soviet Union after WWII (both in soft power terms and in economic and political terms) made the rejection of socialism in the UK - and, for that matter, the entire Western Europe - impossible. The destruction of the old SPD - which collapsed in a quick process of gerontocratic degeneration during the years of WWII - also left the social-democratic throne in Western Europe empty, which the Labour Party happily filled. It was because of this unusual alignment of factors that Attlee managed to win the 1945 elections. The Welfare State in the UK was entirely built in his sole five years of government (1946-1950) - the ruins of which we can still observe today (see, e.g. the NHS).

It's also important to highlight the fact that the question of installing a welfare state in the UK during 1946-1950 mandate was not in question in the British elections of 1945. Both Labour and the Conservative parties advocated for a welfare state if they win. The difference was that Labour promised a perpetual welfare state, while the Conservatives only promised a temporary welfare state, to be demolished after the generation of "heroes" (of WWII) died.

Posted by: vk | Oct 12 2021 16:48 utc | 116

Remember this is US of Notht A and Brit new-speech intended to make people and politicians forget all about "International Law" , International treaties" and UN-established norms thru various human rights declarations -- not a single one of which The US of North A, their accomplicis in the UK/City of London nor th masters in that small Levantine state on a turf granted them by the former Christian masters between in Galilee (30%) , Isreël/Samaria (5%) and the costal panes ofir the Philistines (ca. 60%).
ALL OF THIS settlementization run contrary to international law. Any adherence to "ruke.based order" means to accept Amaricano-Jewish rules for the rest of us to go kneejerking there in the US BAnana republic of New South Israël.

I remember Ariël Sharon saying he felt remorse whenhaving to kill off sheep at his ranch inthe Negev desert. He never said the same about killing those more.human-than him who wer palestonian Arabs. Nore sad to kill off prisoners in the Six-day War before another Israëli Tank commander of a more humanitarian bent threatened to kill him off.

Posted by: Tollef Ås اس طلف | Oct 12 2021 16:52 utc | 117

Very short Q&A session during Lavrov visit to Kazakhstan, one of the answers:

Sergey Lavrov: Russia, like the overwhelming majority of other countries, considers Taiwan to be part of the People's Republic of China. We have proceeded and will proceed from this premise in our foreign policy.

Lavrov Q&A Kazakhstan eng.

Posted by: Paco | Oct 12 2021 17:10 utc | 118

Why all this propaganda? Very simple: to prepare public opinions in the west for a war.

Posted by: Olivier1973 | Oct 12 2021 17:12 utc | 119

Back to the Taiwan issue. This is perhaps the best editorial I've read on this crisis. Here's the current assessment:

"The situation across the Taiwan Straits has entered an unprecedented period of high risk. The 1992 Consensus between the two sides is no longer in place, and China and the US have lost most of their strategic coordination capacity. All parties are preparing for the worst, and the room for maneuvering to ease the situation is close to zero.

"On the surface, there is no way out for all parties. The DPP authorities claim that they want to 'defend free and democratic way of life' for the '23 million people.' They now have no choice but to 'fight to the end.' The US' attitude is to defend democratic allies, support the confidence of its global allies, and maintain US hegemony in the world. Obviously, the reason for the Chinese mainland to move forward is stronger—we are defending national sovereignty and territorial integrity, and facing down an active strategic outpost of the US' efforts to suppress China's rise."

Mainland China would much rather resolve this problem peacefully by applying pressure via power:

"The resolution of the Taiwan question can be achieved through peaceful means. In that case, it must be a result shaped by power. DPP authorities are attempting to overwhelm the powerful determination of China to realize national reunification with the will of a small group and achieve peace with an opportunistic mindset. They are dreaming. The Chinese history and the political rule of the world will not accept the way Taiwan seeks 'secession'.

"Aside from strength, the justice of political logic is also on the mainland's side. The DPP authorities are taking their chances, betting that the mainland, for the sake of sustaining development, will not allow a war to break out. They think they are safe despite a tense situation. What the mainland needs to do is to smash their bet, creating a breakthrough in the stalemate in the Taiwan Straits situation." [My Emphasis]

How to do that?

"We should believe that under the condition of an expanding power gap between the mainland and the island of Taiwan, the DPP authorities have no other choice but to accept reunification in the end. As the cross-Straits situation gets increasingly tense, it will become most unbearable to Taiwan society. The will of the mainland will finally crush that of the DPP authorities. This is in line with the basic political laws.

"The mainland should continue to increase military pressure on the DPP authorities, while putting the necessary economic and legal means into use. It should also prepare for sudden changes in the situation. The mainland should disregard the DPP authorities' sensational publicity stunt in which they vowed to 'fight to the end,' nor should it pay excessive attention to the easing or accelerating of US-Taiwan collusion. Let them fight their way and we fight our way. The tipping point that the DPP authorities cannot withstand the pressure any more will finally come." [My Emphasis]

Just what are those "basic political laws"? I'm going to illustrate this using the late 1850s Secession Crisis within the USA as a foil. At that time, the South was ruled by a landed Oligarchy known as the Slavocracy, and totally controlled the section's politics. Within that Oligarchy was a very radical faction known as Fire Eaters who felt their slave-based cotton economy formed the basis of the nascent English industrial political economy such that the British would be forced to ally with the South to fuel their industry. The People in that case had no choice whatsoever, although many enlisted because they believed the propaganda they were fed about their future livelihoods being destroyed if the South didn't get its way. Taiwan on the other hand has a pluralistic democracy with three major parties, only one of which favors separation, whereas the KMT seeks continuing coexistence and eventual unification, and the Taiwan People's Party seeks to retain the status quo. Listing of Taiwan's political parties. As you see, there's no consensus, although BigLie media treats the DPP as if it's the only party, ignoring reality. Clearly, the Mainland's goal is to generate political pressure such that it changes Taiwanese minds so they vote for parties wanting to continue pursuing the One country, Two systems policy employed in Hong Kong and Macao. Forcible reunification via military action would only be imposed as a last resort when very specific Red Lines get crossed. So, Taiwan's future is in the hands of its people, not an oligarchy, and they can choose to peaceful path instead of one destined to end in armed confrontation.

What would you vote for: Peace or War? And when you look across the Taiwan Strait at very prosperous Fujian province, why wouldn't you want to remain at peace? Those basic political laws all relate to self-interest and thus national interest.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 12 2021 17:17 utc | 120

Of course the UK's Labour Party didn't have anything to do with the USSR. I was making a comparison in their relative downfalls as they're rather parallel. You may see Thatcherism as a victory for the UK, whereas I see it as a great downfall for the British masses that's retuning them to their beaten-down post-war status. And I do believe the gamut of social stats will support my contention.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 12 2021 17:22 utc | 121

mastameta @112--

Thanks for your reply!

China's very keen on accomplishing its own 2030 SDGs--AND--helping other developing nations reach their 2030 SDGs too. In case you've never seen them listed, here they are. Note that Climate Action is #13, but it's interrelated with many other goals, which were formulated in 2015. In 2016, China published a White Paper, "The Right to Development: China’s Philosophy, Practice and Contribution" setting forth China's policy of people-centered development:

"Development is a universal human theme, providing for people’s basic needs and giving them hope of better life. The right to development is an inalienable human right, symbolizing dignity and honor. Only through development can we address global challenges; only through development can we protect basic civil rights of the people; only through development can we promote the progress of human society."

China argues that preventing development is a violation of human rights and is correct in its accusations that the West has greatly retarded the Global South's development. When looking through the White Paper Archive, you'll see that many match 2030 SDG themes. Thus, China has a repository of position papers it can provide to nations wanting to join BRI to help them accomplish their 2030 SDGs. The Outlaw US Empire has no similar resource, but the failed IMF and World Bank development projects speak for themselves. And of course there's the outstanding book that details why the world's better off following China and Russia than the Outlaw US Empire, Hudson's 3rd edition of Super Imperialism.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 12 2021 17:48 utc | 122

Paco @118--

Thanks for the FYI! Here's another bit:

"Question: Our Western partners keep surprising us. Now the British media has accused Russia of stealing the formula for the AstraZeneca vaccine. As usual, they did not offer any evidence. Is this just the next step in the information war against our vaccines?

"Sergey Lavrov: As for our British partners and the majority of our other Western partners, nothing surprises me anymore. I don’t think anyone will take such groundless accusations seriously. There were many similar statements, but I haven’t heard that we were accused of stealing the AstraZeneca formula.

"I remember there were many cases when AstraZeneca caused negative side effects, such as thrombosis. Sputnik V has never led to such consequences. I think all those who are interested will make conclusions themselves."

Of course, we don't/can't know how much influence Russia has on China's Taiwan policy, although IMO they've advised against taking military action unless as a very last resort. A reminder might have been provided about the Outlaw US Empire's very weak nature such that the long game remains the best policy choice. In reality, providing any aid to Taiwan weakens the Outlaw US Empire as it's giving away assets it can't afford to part with. Same goes for aid to Occupied Palestine.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 12 2021 17:58 utc | 123

I offer a free anticipation script: the United States, not accepting its collapse, commits suicide with all available nuclear weapons, dragging all living beings on earth, like the narcissistic suicidal a******* who drag their families to their graves: to make disappear any living witness of their stupidity.

Posted by: Marjorie | Oct 12 2021 18:01 utc | 124

karlof1 | Oct 12 2021 17:17 utc @120,

As always, thank you very much for your great contributions here. Just want to add my 2 cents here regarding the political parties in Taiwan.

DPP is the dominant political party in Taiwan now, just like KMT 3 decades ago. Unless something exceptional occurs, it seems to me this will not change. KMT is basically history now. The best use of KMT is to prevent DPP getting out of line too far from its master. In fact, KMT serves the same master as DPP. Of course, these "servants" will try everything and every way to benefit themselves to the most while executing the master's order. Other political parties don't matter at all.

As for people's mind in Taiwan, it is leaning to DPP's stand rather than reunification with China. It's a result of education in the past 30 years, starting from Lee's rein. This will not change in any way until China takes back Taiwan. A good reference is the education in HK in the past 20 years after 1997. Its curriculum was basically the remanents of UK colony. It even paints Mainlanders in a very negative image. This now starts to change after China takes measure to get rid of traitors in HK education system. The similar thing will take place in Taiwan AFTER the reunification. I believe China also realizes this. However, China will try any means for a peaceful resolution so it will hold the legitimacy when military action is the only solution.

It is a really sad situation for Taiwan.

Posted by: LuRenJia | Oct 12 2021 18:01 utc | 125

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Oct 12 2021 15:15 utc | 108:

Are there any major movies or TV shows where the #1 villain, the top bad guy, is Chinese

I guess you're rather young. Ever heard of Fu Manchu? Dr. No? On TV, in the 80's, Chinese characters are usually casted as gangster or murderous spies. And that's only Hollywood flicks that come to mind. There are tons of villainous Chinese characters in Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Indian, etc. etc. movies and TV shows that depict Chinese in malicious roles. In fact, Chinese are more likely to be casted in negative lights than any other ethnicity:-). It's okay by me though, movies are just movies.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Oct 12 2021 18:13 utc | 126

Thank You for Your posting, Karlof'1; This really clears up our perspectives:
"Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 12 2021 15:33 utc | 110"
Really worh reading!
I should add thet Red China has during the last 20 years planted a lot of trees -- possibly more than get cut don by the Brasiian Forest in their attack now on the Amazon forests!

Posted by: Tollef Ås اس طلف | Oct 12 2021 18:15 utc | 127

Oriental Voice @126:

Should have been Dr. Who, which was meant as Dr. Hu :-)

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Oct 12 2021 18:21 utc | 128


Harold Wilson famously considered that the British Labour Party "owed more to Methodism than to Marx".

Although Clem Atlee is quite rightly our Gold Standard of Socialism, Harold Wilson is a not too distant number two. His administration revolutionised education at secondary and tertiary levels. And as a child I remember our Member of Parliament (Ernest Perry) coming to our home to speak with my father about a problem, and no money changed hands.

My inquiry was really more about philosophy: is "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" so very different from a true mixed economy with a central bank under public control?

Posted by: John Cleary | Oct 12 2021 18:45 utc | 129

LuRenJia @125--

Thanks for your reply and further input! As much as I want to situation to be resolved peacefully, IMO the Outlaw US Empire's goal is to spark a war to damage China's credibility and to stunt its development, as it certainly doesn't give a damn about Taiwanese--they're collateral damage. I agree 100% on the education issue as evidenced by the DPP's repudiation of Sun Yat-sen and the 1911 Revolution. That's one of the reasons why I chose the comparison with the USA's secession crisis, but I can't see the Mainland offering enough carrots to entice Taiwanese to change their minds, thus the sticks used to increase pressure. Another question relates to how long the Outlaw US Empire can provide support to Taiwan--AND--if Taiwan can continue to be competitive economically. Mainland China's shift in emphasis to becoming 100% vertically oriented in its IT sector critically includes its manufacture of chips where it's focused on displacing TSMC. Quite a lot of additional pressure would be generated on Taiwan if its commerce begins to suffer due to lack of competitiveness. Other problem areas are related to Taiwan's ability to generate energy to run its steel and heavy manufacturing sectors. Then there's the creeping financialization of its economy, which will eventually impoverish Taiwanese. And should China decide to place the sort of embargo blockade like that of the Outlaw US Empire's on Cuba, Taiwan would fold since it cannot grow enough food to feed its citizens.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 12 2021 19:20 utc | 130

Oriental Voice @ 128 Hello, you were right the first time. Dr No (James Bond villain) had a Chinese mother & German father. He also worked for SMERSH, the dastardly Russian organisation...

Posted by: boon | Oct 12 2021 19:25 utc | 131

@108 rjb1.5

Lethal Weapon 4

Posted by: Some Random Passerby | Oct 12 2021 19:31 utc | 132

boon @131:

Thanks for the correction :-)

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Oct 12 2021 19:44 utc | 133

I wonder just how much the "Tribal or Diaspora" effect has on relations between China and Taiwan?.

Many countries have an attraction for ex-citizens that goes beyond just a cold "paper" belonging. One might find a Scot in any country in the world, but they are still "Scottish" with clan roots. This goes for other countries' ethnies as well. The Irish; the best-most musical St. Patricks night I ever had were the furthest from Ireland. Distance does that to you.

During the expatriation of the Chinese, they retain roots with the "old" country. In the Pacific, Indonesia etc, where they have become implanted, there are still close affective ties to the mainland. I am not speaking as a Chinese, but have noticed that the Ex-Chinese nationals form closed groups with a central, quite hard, discipline. The Passport is secondary. Individuals are required to follow the system or will be rejected by the community. (Seen in the Pacific area)

There are many Chinese communities living outside China with their own ways and "laws". "Chinatowns" can be quite clearly defined.

So The Taiwanaise, could still have affective "Community" roots to the mainland. I do not mean "family", although hearing one Chinese person boasting about his family living in the same area for 600 years, does give a sense of "belonging" that cannot be attained by those simply passing through for a generation or so.

What I am leading up to, is that all the Mainland Chinese have to do is wait. The affective, general impetus is towards a collective realisation of their mutual affinity. Each person can go their own way, make money, or not, but the ethnic links are more important in the end.

The "Elite" that resulted from the war with the mainland, want to keep their privileges and perogatives, but others might not see that as a desirable permanent state.

I reckon most Taiwanese would go along with a reunification, rather than a brutal war for an idealogical goal, a set of foreigners and a homegrown "elite" that wants to keep it's position.

Posted by: Stonebird | Oct 12 2021 20:16 utc | 134

Thanks for exposing the pattern b.

A famous award winning Australian journalist, the late Evan Whiton, once said there are two types of journalism, the scoop and the pattern. Whiton was known for exposing the pattern:

"David Hickie, a Sydney Morning Herald contemporary who later became editor-in-chief of that paper and The Sun Herald, described him as a “formidable investigative journalist who insisted on forensic research and scrupulous fact-checking accuracy".[22] Whiton preferred the term “disclosure” rather than investigative journalism. He referred to his particular style within this field as “pattern journalism”. The technique was, in Whitton’s view , most simply summed up in the dictum of investigative reporter James B Steele of The Philadelphia Inquirer: “The challenge is to gather, marshal, and organise vast amounts of data already in the public domain, and see what it adds up to.”

Posted by: Paul | Oct 12 2021 20:45 utc | 135

Posted by: Stonebird | Oct 12 2021 20:16 utc | 134

Sounds almost like the China-Taiwan situation mirrors the relationship between rich Cuban expats in Florida vs the regular folks who stayed behind in after Castro took over. Judging from that less-than-perfect analogy, it seems that elites who lose out are able to hold a grudge for a very long time, even across generations. In which case, I'm not so sure mutual affinity and shared roots will bring reunification any time soon.

Posted by: farm ecologist | Oct 12 2021 20:51 utc | 136

Oriental Voice @ 133 As I posted that comment, I realised I might be ignorant of the evil Dr Hu. I'm relieved I don't have to leave the bar for making drunken assumptions. *raises glass "Cheers"

Posted by: boon | Oct 12 2021 20:59 utc | 137

I suspect the Chinese government prefers to wait until after the US dollar loses its status as the world's reserve currency before it takes back Taiwan. Once that happens, the US will find it much harder to maintain the military presence in the western Pacific that allows the Taiwanese separatists to claim that the status quo is sustainable.

Posted by: Fnord13 | Oct 12 2021 21:13 utc | 138

John Cleary @129--

Thanks much for your reply and clarification. Lets look at China's societal goal: The creation of a moderately prosperous society in all respects capable of tolerance, humility, and continuity. China's advantage is creating such a society from the bottom up based upon several thousand years of Taoist teachings no other society has as an asset. Could the UK envision such a goal for itself or would it be hamstrung by its past. IMO, philosophically/ideologically a society must reach consensus on what it wants to be/become. I'm sure many would be happy as Hobbits, but then we're not informed of how the Hobbit society works from a political-economic POV.

Marx and others envisioned all society as owners of that society as well as workers within it such that class distinctions disappeared along with class conflict--recall that in our world Class Conflict exists primarily between Creditors and Debtors, not workers and owners. In Marx's hypothetical world, Creditors are erased and replaced by the state/public financing of all enterprises such that only owners and workers exist, and that they could actually be rolled into one. The one area of conflict within Marx's world that he doesn't address is that between the management/planners and those charged with the implementation of those plans such that a managerial caste exists with hierarchies. Hierarchies also exist in other realms, education being rather obvious, and in government. Somehow hierarchies need to be made humble so the latent power they're vested with remains latent--unexercised. For that to become reality, humans must be rigorously trained--indoctrinated--very much like what's required to become a complete Party member--almost like a Quaker. All development is to benefit all the people all the time. And for that to properly work, any sort of parasite cannot be abided in any position. And the only way I know of to get that sort of result is via Culture/Education/Mores/Taboos in such a manner that Culture becomes a self-enforcing mechanism for society with all imbalances called out for rectification.

Then there's the ultimate aim for society enforced via culture--attainment of knowledge and wisdom, not riches, glory, notoriety. Clearly, merely turning banks into public utilities is necessary but not sufficient. The problem with almost all nations is they aren't starting from scratch. IMO, what happened in 1609 Bermuda to the survivors of the wrecked Sea Venture that became the template for Shakespeare's play The Tempest provides an excellent example where a fresh start from scratch is possible but is dashed by lack of consensus and the existence of hierarchies willing to utilize their power to maintain the status quo. In that case, the Master/Slave hierarchical relationship was never broken which allowed the Masters to regain control even though they were outnumbered--the Culture of Terror employed by the Masters was enough to make the slaves refrain from attempting to form a new basis for life. Some will try to argue that China employs that same sort of systemic Culture of Terror to keep its people under control; but, there's no evidence of that. Instead, there's lots of evidence suggesting a consensus exists amongst the Chinese polity endorsing the current system. The UK's current culture is a remnant of that which commanded Sea Venture's survivors, shorn of much of its overt terror.

Machiavelli: Divide and Rule. Divide so no consensus can be formulated thus ensuring continuous control by the hierarchy. But how big a consensus is required to overturn the ruling hierarchy? Stalin's maxim was those who count the votes control the outcome, which is very close to those who control the past via the writing of history control the future because that history becomes the basis for current education/indoctrination. The answer is as large a coalition well beyond 50% as possible--70-80% being close to ideal. But the Bolsheviks had much less?! Really? How many Russian soldiers deserted the front when they heard of Lenin's promise to end Russia's participation--the vast majority, which served to collapse Divide and Rule. IMO, it wasn't 1984 that had the ability to collapse Divide and Rule; rather, it was Animal Farm; for amongst the animals there existed a hierarchy that ruled by terror. IMO, that situation now exists within every Neoliberal controlled nation and those controlled by their kin the Neocolonialists. Perhaps the most effective rallying cry for peoples today was one issued 80 years ago that I noted on its anniversary, the Four Freedoms: Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Worship, Freedom from Want, and Freedom from Fear, although I'd reverse the order making Freedom from Fear #1. That would mean emancipation from the terror employed by hierarchies to Divide and Rule first and foremost.

Hudson's the one who recently stated that to change the current political-economic system you'll need a revolution because the political system is owned by the hierarchy needing to be overthrown so you'll never make any progress via that venue. Once that structure's torn down then a new one can be constructed from scratch. So, the upshot is if we want a society similar to what China's building, then we'll need to copy some of China's moves that enabled it to commence rebuilding. And that started with gaining a consensus as to what needed to be done and most importantly how and with what rationale. They came up with adopting Sun Yat-sen's need to create national rejuvenation and rehabilitation and combining it with the Marxist-Leninist ideal of people centered development--uplift the people and the nation will follow. They then proceeded to spread their message in an effort to generate greater consensus. A considerably large consensus coalesced around the ideas promoted by Bernie Sanders campaigns, but they went no further thanks to the corrupted political system. The consensus still exists, but there's no organization trying to enlarge it. So it sits. Waiting.

Yep, long answer to what appeared to be a simple question.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 12 2021 21:25 utc | 139

Posted by: vk | Oct 12 2021 16:48 utc | 116

Your remarks about the Labour Party remind me of Lenin's judgment on the Australian Labor Party in 1913:

"And while in Britain the so-called Labour Party is an alliance between the non-socialist trade unions and the extremely opportunist Independent Labour Party, in Australia the Labour Party is the unalloyed representative of the non-socialist workers’ trade unions. The leaders of the Australian Labour Party are trade union officials, everywhere the most moderate and “capital serving” element, and in Australia, altogether peaceable, purely liberal."

Posted by: Patroklos | Oct 12 2021 21:35 utc | 140

@ Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 12 2021 21:25 utc | 139

I disagree with your theory (that China fixed Marxism with Taoism). In my opinion, the main weakness of your argument is that you take James Burnham's "Managerial Society" thesis too seriously.

The existence of hierarchy is not a problem to Marxist theory at all. One of Marx's most innovative analysis was the difference between technical and social divisions of labor. Class only refers to social division of labor, not technical.

Technical division of labor is division of labor by imposition of the natural world on human society. You have to have doctors, firemen, teachers, janitors, factory workers, metalworkers etc. etc. etc. This also applies to single units of production which are too big and too complex to be operated without hierarchy, so you have to have subdivisions of administration for the sheer necessity of coordination and logistics.

Social division of labor is all about domination, i.e. sheer power of one human over the other human. The capitalist may, but he doesn't need to work at all to be a capitalist; he's just the owner of the means of production, in any title. The social function of the capitalist is merely to serve as the personification of capital and nothing else. Sure, some capitalists arise from certain professions that, by imposition of nature and chance, statistically favors him/her to become a capitalist (e.g. a small-business capitalist has to become some sort of an accountant for himself, and take care of the business' finance directly) - but that doesn't change his/her social function. You can demonstrate that by comparing small businesses with big businesses: in big businesses, the accountant or financial administrator is merely a worker of the company (the owner is the society of shareholders), while, in small businesses, the accountant or financial administrator almost always is the owner himself/herself. In that case, yes, we have the extraordinary situation where the capitalist exploits him/herself (although not exactly, since those functions generally are managerial, i.e. involves only the circulation of capital, not its production).

In such situations, what determines the social class of an individual is the dominant mean of his/her subsistence: if one depends more on the wage to survive, one is a worker (e.g. a middle class doctor who has some income in Wall Street because he owns some stock); if one depends more on the profit (or, in late capitalism, financial assets) than his wages, then he is a capitalist. Again, social function (class) is independent on the biological existence of the individual in a given point in space-time, in philosophical terms, we say it is subjective.

As capitalism matures, there is some sophistication - all of which Marx explained and demonstrated to not violate the principle of class. Commerce only deals with the circulation of commodities and doesn't create surplus value; instead, it charges the productive capital an equal part of the surplus value. The reason capitalism accepts the existence of commercial capital is because of economy in logistics, as each unity of production doesn't have to worry about keeping their own warehouses anymore. The middle class' wages (i.e. managerial class, including the politician class and the public sector workers that are purely bureaucratic plus the police and military) are also a deduction of the surplus value of the productive workers, and are accounted as a discount of circulation. Transportation sector (post, freight) is a productive sector on its own right, but is accounted as expenditure of circulation by the other sectors.

So, long story short, there's no such a thing called "managerial society". The managerial class is merely a class of bureaucrats at heart that the capitalist class must pay as a "necessary evil", i.e. as a cost of circulation of commodities (services are also commodities).

Posted by: vk | Oct 12 2021 21:59 utc | 141

@ Posted by: Patroklos | Oct 12 2021 21:35 utc | 140

I don't know the case of Australia, but the UK case is pretty straightforward: the Labour Party is not socialist for the simple fact the union formation process and the union movement in the UK were born before Marx (and, therefore, before the birth of scientific socialism). And it happened in the UK and not in other nations because capitalism developed first in the UK.

Posted by: vk | Oct 12 2021 22:01 utc | 142


Posted by: David Chibi | Oct 12 2021 22:22 utc | 143

Laura Roslin #24

Jason Lightfoot, vlogging from China shows you how BBC literally uses a gray filter in their reporting to make beautiful places in China look dark and scary. (He's hilarious by the way).

He's so good at mocking and debunking them it struck a bit of a nerve:

Thank you for the link to Jason Lightfoot. He is a keeper with good wit and his poke in the bbc cyclops eye was a goodie. I got sidetracked with other good works at his site. Thank goodness for people doing this form of positive work in their life.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 12 2021 22:30 utc | 144

@Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 12 2021 21:25 utc | 139

Wow, thank you Karl.
It will take me a while to digest. :)

You're really pumped up, aren't you?

Do you see a turning point?

Posted by: John Cleary | Oct 12 2021 23:18 utc | 145

John Cleary @145--

Thanks for your reply John! Yeah, I got motivated and went beyond what I posted and turned it into an article for my VK Space focusing on what I began writing about when I first landed there prior to the 2020 election. At that time I was exploring ideas for a potential political book with the working title of Critical Mass. We both are victims of mature political systems that have outlived their utility for the general public and the global community. IMO, China provides an example of the possible. Russia does too, but its phoenix-like rise has a very different context, one that may have lessons for former Neoliberal nations destroyed by their parasites. I'm also motivated by what's likely a travesty of Asimov's Foundation series of works where a faithful adaptation of the prequels through to the finale IMO would be best given the genius who created them all. Now it's time for a porter and dinner creation. Aloha!

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 13 2021 0:07 utc | 146

Advisory Board of Tsinghua University School of Economics and Management

Posted by: Anon | Oct 13 2021 0:28 utc | 147

Stonebird @134: "The affective, general impetus is towards a collective realisation of their mutual affinity. Each person can go their own way, make money, or not, but the ethnic links are more important in the end."

Given natural human development, yes, people will naturally be drawn to their roots. But the West has excelled at deliberately teaching children to hate their roots and revere the empire. That is a big part of how slaves were controlled. That is entirely what missionary work is about. That is what American popular media is tuned to do. The first thing that the empire does with a newly conquered province is rewrite the textbooks and twist the education into poison. Ukrainians have been taught to hate their Slavic-ness and people on the island of Taiwan have been taught from birth to hate their Chinese-ness. This exact same process is being used within the US itself right now to program men to hate their maleness and white people to hate their whiteness. The Taiwanese want to be ugly and slack-minded morons like Awkwafina, not competent beauties like Li Ziqi.

This self-hate and inverted notion of honor is part of what took the Soviet Union down and it is something the Russians are still trying to recover from. At the end of the day, though, economics rules. The Soviets could never have been sold on the self-hate if the American empire wasn't so economically dominant. Likewise China's economic successes are making the Chinese self-hate a much harder sell to the children of Taiwan. The problem is that the consciousness of a population always lags behind material conditions by many years. Even though the point where American culture had nothing of value left to offer the people of Taiwan has long been passed, they are still enamored with the American delusion. That delusion is rapidly losing its shine, though.

Posted by: William Gruff | Oct 13 2021 0:37 utc | 148

My inquiry was really more about philosophy: is "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" so very different from a true mixed economy with a central bank under public control?

Posted by: John Cleary | Oct 12 2021 18:45 utc | 129

I take that as a rhetorical question, as all economies are mixed, it's just a question of proportion. by banks under public control, I take that as a other way of saying controlling the 'commanding heights of the economy.'

the so called 'chinese characteristics' part can be vague but I understand it as being socialist in its direction but not ideological about the methods for achieving socialist ends. you can call that a 'mixed' economy but if all economies are actually mixed then the descriptor has little value.

I disagree with karlofi in calling the Chinese govt daoist, because the label doesn't bring much clarity. Chinese intellectual history is not like the west in being so sectarian. before daoism became an institutional religion with a clergy during the third century, it was just texts that everyone read, including Confucius, whose sayings in the Analects actually include commentary on the Laozi, which was perceived not as a rival 'school' but as a 'common core' that everyone studied and knew.

across two millennia, Chinese who professed that Confucius was the ultimate sage also read daoist texts, as well as buddhist texts. while there are always hardliners in any era, what characterizes Chinese civilization, if I may generalize, is that they are usually not sectarian in their ideological orientation. they are practical in using whatever works for governance and adopting what is most suitable for the times, taking from this and from that.

in that respect, 'socialism with Chinese characteristics' does resonate with premodern Chinese traditions in its capacity to be fluid. the ultimate virtue was timeliness. the common strain that runs through all the traditional Chinese views of sagehood is that the sage is perfectly adapted to respond to his historical moment. that is not an ideological position or a sectarian way of seeing the world.

Posted by: mastameta | Oct 13 2021 0:37 utc | 149

karlof1 @139: " our world Class Conflict exists primarily between Creditors and Debtors, not workers and owners..."

I suppose it depends upon one's perspective. To the petite bourgeoisie, the middle class, the creditor/debtor dynamic might seem all-important. To working people who have to punctually punch a clock every day, the boss/worker dynamic dominates their lives utterly.

But which perspective is correct? Naturally the petite bourgeoisie egotistically view themselves as the center of the economic universe, so their concern over their debts seems central to everything. In fact, though, the economy revolves around labor and capital. As we speak the petite bourgeoisie are being squeezed out of their economic niches and when they are gone there will be no changes to the global economy of any significance. The same cannot be said for either labor or capital. Either of those somehow being excluded from the economy will result in massive, epoch-defining structural changes in how the economy works.

Posted by: William Gruff | Oct 13 2021 1:06 utc | 150

Re:Dark side.
Add this one: China went to the dark side of the moon.

Posted by: HelenB | Oct 13 2021 2:38 utc | 151

@Dogon Priest
Maybe so. But that was then and this is now.
I spent most of the last 15 years teaching English in China. Took different assignments in eight different provinces to experience the different parts of China. Africans are well respected in China, and often teach English there. Africans staff many factories in China. In Guangdong a multitude African businessmen are heavily involved in international trade.
Sadly, with COVID, foreigners on most visas had to leave last year, including me.

Posted by: HelenB | Oct 13 2021 2:48 utc | 152

A tribute to Andre Vltchek.

The West Perfecting Its Techniques To Hurt China

Andre Vltchek RIP
Somebody should do an autopsy on Vltchek.

The satanists are targeting truth tellers ...Max Parry, William BLum etc etc.

Now Tom of ICH is under cancer treatment.
Thats how they did Chavez.

Posted by: denk | Oct 13 2021 3:43 utc | 153

The darkest side of China is that most of the members of the central commitee of Chinese Communist Party are anticommunists. Mao Tse Tung forewarned chinese people (nonparty members) about this possibility back in 1975, but he did not have enough time to mobilise the chinese people (nonparty members) to abort the chinese anticommunist creeping revolution.

Posted by: Kim Jong Il | Oct 13 2021 4:43 utc | 154

RE: Posted by: Tollef Ås اس طلف | Oct 12 2021 16:25 utc | 115
Do people here regard 6 millions Jews dead figure as a myth?

Posted by: awaiting approval | Oct 13 2021 4:44 utc | 155

Reminds me of this gem:

This Is What MSM Mind Control Looks Like

Posted by: nomad | Oct 13 2021 5:09 utc | 156

William Gruff @150--

In the beginning, the workers were farmers who borrowed to grow their food; but if the harvest was poor, that was the beginning of being trapped by debt. Hudson and Graeber as you know have done an excellent job of detailing all that. The modern context remains very similar with many being dunned with high interest for payday loans and the like. It is the longest standing Class War.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 13 2021 5:10 utc | 157

RE: Posted by: Tollef Ås اس طلف | Oct 12 2021 16:25 utc | 115
Do people here regard 6 millions Jews dead figure as a myth?

Yupity yup! Is myth better or worse than lie? Anyway, whichever is worse, dada!

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Oct 13 2021 5:55 utc | 158

"Do people here regard 6 millions Jews dead figure as a myth?"

Right now I am more focused on the current dead and threatened Palestinians, Libyans, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, Yemen. I would have thought that the WWII charnel house could produce nations that are totally committed to peace and refining the science of diplomacy to avoid nationalistic wars and colonisation.

The Russian and Chinese nations lost far more citizens in the WWII experience and are demonstrably far more committed to applying diplomacy and peace making and eradicating terrorists and colonisers than some of the other participants in that ghastly ignorance called war.

Others are clearly ignorant of the Holocaust of war or satisfied to hide behind its fog.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 13 2021 8:03 utc | 159

karlof1 @157

Agriculture existed long before money existed. Borrowing capital has never been an essential part of agriculture. Perhaps to run a farm as a small business (thus petite bourgeoisie) borrowing is important, but that is part of capitalism and certainly no feature of agriculture itself.

Posted by: William Gruff | Oct 13 2021 10:23 utc | 160

Posted by: William Gruff | Oct 13 2021 0:37 utc | 148

Quite a nice post except for this:

"and white people to hate their whiteness."

"White" is a phenotypic denominator, not a cultural denominator. While self-hating for it is completely stupid, it's just as stupid to be proud of it, or even more.

"Black" only makes sense as a cultural denominator for americans (americans in general, not only USians) because of mass intercontinental slavery of africans. Which is an imposed condition that in practice erased their previous cultural denominators.

Let's not forget that not so long ago the Irish weren't considered "white", a completely laughable notion.

Let's not forget that "white" has been used and continues to be used as an excuse for unethical behavior against others.

Let's not forget that "white" melts and dilutes actual ancestry and cultural heritage.

The only achievement "white people" have to their credit is being arbitrarily violent racist, colonialist pricks.

The other things - the good things - weren't done by "white people". They were done by Russian people, German people, Swedish people, who knows, probably even the British have done something good in their entire history, even if I can't quite put my finger on it right now.

No, I cannot have any sympathy for any degree of "white pride". Including concern for diminishing cultural protagonism.

Somebody being "white" tells me nothing of their moral character, their cultural heritage, or their social mores.

However, somebody being proud of being white -- does tell me they're proud of something they had zero agency in, that they'd rather substitute skin color in place of actual culture and ancestry, and that they're proud of a history of racial discrimination and worse.

Posted by: Misotheist | Oct 13 2021 10:38 utc | 161

English has the term "Asian" to refer to the continent and things associated with it, but also the term "Asiatic", which has a dark, menacing nuance to it.

And "The Yellow Peril/Plague" are not far removed from American cultural memory, and still form part of our obsession with "tiger moms" and the stereotype of the Chinese child browbeaten by his family into becoming a math/science/computer whizz (and becoming part of sinister Asiatic schemes to conquer the world).

Posted by: Malchik Ralf | Oct 13 2021 11:01 utc | 162

Last weekend India's vice president toured the Arunachal Pradesh state.
A real dark side of the CPC: Foreign Ministry spokesperson Zhao Lijian said in response,“The Chinese government never recognises the so-called Arunachal Pradesh established unilaterally and illegally by the Indian side, and is firmly opposed to the Indian leaders’ visits to the area concerned. When the PLA took Tibet by force in 1959 they didn't touch this tropical rain forest South of the Himalaya's that was part of British Indian till 1947. Even in the 1962 war they left it to India.

Now the CPC wants Tawang monastery in its quest to appoint the next Dalai Lama: how secular!
Xi Jinping doesn't want any competitor in or out outside his party.

Posted by: Antonym | Oct 13 2021 11:17 utc | 163

@ Posted by: Antonym | Oct 13 2021 11:17 utc | 163

I feel dumb, where was the dark side in that post? Oh and who should decide who is the next Dalai Lama?

Posted by: awaiting approval | Oct 13 2021 11:31 utc | 164

One of the most insane op-eds I've ever read:

Defending Taiwan means ensuring world peace: Not responding to a Chinese invasion would invite more aggression, by Brahma Chellaney, Project Syndicate, for the Japan Times

It concludes this way:

It is true that bolstering Taiwan’s defenses is crucial to avert Chinese amphibious and airborne operations. But even if the U.S. and Taiwanese governments reached an agreement on an asymmetric strategy, it would take several years to build a “porcupine Taiwan” capable of choking the Chinese dragon. This process would include training a large civilian corps to mount sustained guerrilla attacks on invaders.

Until then, in keeping with the central paradox of deterrence, the only way to discourage aggression by a revisionist power is for the status quo power to threaten to go to war. That is how the U.S. kept West Berlin — which had a political status even more precarious than Taiwan’s — free throughout the Cold War.

The worst stance the U.S. could take would be to oppose a Chinese takeover of Taiwan without credibly signaling a genuine willingness to defend the island militarily. Such an approach could encourage Xi, who has grown accustomed to acting with impunity, to order a surprise invasion. With that, the Indo-Pacific order would be overturned, dealing a mortal blow to America’s global preeminence.

Well, let's spot all the nonsense:

1) the military reforms he proposes to Taiwan is completely pie-in-the-sky, megalomaniac madness. It will never happen - both because the majority of the Taiwanese people doesn't want it and because the USA doesn't have the means to do it anymore;

2) did Xi Jinping violate any Chinese law? Why is author accusing him of "acting with impunity"? The concept of "rule of law" doesn't apply anymore?

3) the only revisionist part here is the author himself, as the One-China Policy is the internationally accepted and recognized policy - the USA included;

4) the Indo-Pacific region doesn't exist. It is a figment of Pentagon's imagination, when it redrew the maps somewhere during the end of Obama to Trump eras precisely because it realized it wouldn't be able to stop China in the SCS. If the USA can't stop China in the SCS, why would it be able to stop it in Taiwan?

5) the title says the author defends "world peace". But then, at the end of the very last paragraph, he explicitly states the intention is to protect "America’s global preeminence". Is the author equating both?

Here's the author's bio, as per the article itself:

Brahma Chellaney, professor of strategic studies [???!] at the New Delhi-based Center for Policy Research [???!] and fellow at the Robert Bosch Academy in Berlin, is the author of several books, including “Asian Juggernaut,” “Water: Asia’s New Battleground,” and “Water, Peace, and War: Confronting the Global Water Crisis.”

Posted by: vk | Oct 13 2021 12:06 utc | 165

@ Posted by: vk | Oct 12 2021 22:01 utc | 142

the UK case is pretty straightforward: the Labour Party is not socialist for the simple fact the union formation process and the union movement in the UK were born before Marx (and, therefore, before the birth of scientific socialism). And it happened in the UK and not in other nations because capitalism developed first in the UK.

As Max Beer pointed out, Karl Marx was the German theorist of English socialism.

Posted by: RB | Oct 13 2021 13:22 utc | 166

@ vk, 165

Brahma Chellaney is an hardline Indian hawk who is renown for his anti-Chinese and anti-Pakistani screeds ... sorry "reasoned geopolitical analysis."

India in general hopes to play America off against China and thus advance its own ambitions in South Asia and throughout the so-called "Indo-Pacific" region in general.

A new Cold War--or even limited hot war--between America and China is highly *beneficial* to India, as it would significantly weaken both these countries and allow India to more aggressively step into the breach.

Hence, Chellaney is eagerly pushing for a more aggressive anti-China containment stance by the USA and QUAD countries.

Egging on another country to fight your enemies for you is a classic tactic that India has learned from its former British sahibs.

Put another way, India is the Turkey of Asia.

Both India and Turkey are talking out of both sides of their mouths and playing both sides of the fence in the Unipolar vs. Multipolar geopolitical war.

Posted by: ak74 | Oct 13 2021 14:26 utc | 167

Put another way, India is the Turkey of Asia.

We learned in school that people in Turkey don't refer to the turkey (bird) as a turkey, but as a "hindi", as in one that originated in India.

So you are correct on two accounts...

Posted by: Malchik Ralf | Oct 13 2021 14:49 utc | 168


"awaiting approval | Oct 13 2021 4:44 utc | 155"

efeYou ask whether 1do people here regard 6 million Jewish died as a myth?'
This was not shat i wrote.
I wrote that there is a myth that 6 million Jews were killed in the gas chambers and then cremated.
In the early sixties, Bob Dylan had a song ("With God on our side") where one part reads like this:
"Though they murdered six millions,
/In the ovens they they did fry,
/The Germans now too
/Have God on their side."
-- which shows that this myth was spread with a venegance around the years after 1960.
By the way: We should as You to tell us why Anne Frank was evacuated by train from Auschwitz back to Germany , while millions of Ethnic Germans had to walk and thousands died on the march from frost, desease and hunger. RSVP!
טלפ וש

Posted by: Tollef Ås/秋涛乐/טלפ וש | Oct 13 2021 16:43 utc | 169

Proofed version:

"awaiting approval | Oct 13 2021 4:44 utc | 155"

You ask whether 'do people here regard 6 million Jewish died as a myth?'
This was not what i wrote.
I wrote that there is a myth that 6 million Jews were killed in the gas chambers and then cremated there.
In the early sixties, Bob Dylan had a song ("With God on our side") where one part reads like this:
"Though they murdered six millions,
/In the ovens they they did fry,
/The Germans now too
/Have God on their side."
-- which shows that this myth was spread with a venegance around the years after 1960.
By the way: We should as You to tell us why Anne Frank was evacuated by train from Auschwitz back to Germany , while millions of Ethnic Germans had to walk and thousands died on the march from frost, desease and hunger. RSVP!
טלפ וש

Posted by: Tollef Ås/秋涛乐/טלפ וש | Oct 13 2021 16:46 utc | 170

Misotheist @161

I know, the whole race/racism fixation in the US has departed far from anything that could be called rational. It's completely bonkers.

First, I have never met anyone who identifies as "white". I know lots of people who identify as ethnically German, or Irish, or Italian, or Spanish, and so on, but not a single person who would answer "White!" if you asked them "What are you?" In fact, ethnicity is down the list for most Americans and most I know would answer something like "A teacher" or "An engineer" or even just "A guy who likes fishing". Nobody I know would come up with "White!" in the first dozen or two categories they belong to unless you deliberately pushed them that way with the structure of your questions.

Oddly, this failure of regular whitish working people to self-identify as "white" is itself considered "white privilege" by those (almost entirely white middle class) with the race fixation! You see, it is not "racists" who are pushing hard for the notion of "white identity" but rather the delusional white middle class. This delusional white middle class thinks that by fixating on and reinforcing the social construct of "race" that they are somehow fighting racism! It is a total inversion of reason, but then what else can you expect from people with business or journalism degrees?

Likewise for "white pride". I have never met anyone who was proud of the lightness of their skin tone... well, other than lighter skinned Black Americans that is. Proud of their German heritage? Their Irish heritage? Sure, but their whiteness is always just incidental to that.

So why do the delusional "woke" middle class need so desperately to believe that everyone with lighter skin tones (except themselves, of course) is an evil white supremacist racist intent upon tearing down the Black man? There is no evidence that these white supremacists even exist in any but the most trivial numbers. But they must exist as an explanation for the crappy quality of life allotted to Black Americans that also happens to be compatible with capitalist ideology (that last part is non-negotiable for the middle class). If it isn't the "bad vibes" about Black people being emitted by "white" working class folks, then what else can explain why so many Black folks cannot get good, generous, satisfying, and personally fulfilling employment?

The "woke" really need to think a little more deeply on this problem... and maybe wake up to the fact that the villain is capitalism.

It is all utter lunacy, but things get that way during late stage empire.

Posted by: William Gruff | Oct 13 2021 16:48 utc | 171

vk @141

Much of what you posted are the subjects of discussion of a book from some time ago by JK Galbraith - Economics and the Public Purpose. A thesis he developed there is that there are now two economic realities - the planning system and the free-market system. Large corporate interests often are able to control or affect their environment (to varying degrees,) thus plan their way forward. Small businesses and sole proprietors are subject to all the conditions set by the planning system entities and by all those layers of decreasing beneficiaries between themselves and the top. Success or failure at the bottom often revolves around the willingness and ability to self-exploit.

I read that when I was much younger and less journeyed and able to comprehend. He's very methodical and dry, and I don't recall what conclusions or recommendations he may have offered regarding the public purpose. I do remember lengthy passages though discussing the role of "technocrats," those managerial or technical specialists sometimes at odds with the boards of directors/investors, vying for control of the planning direction.

Your last remark made me think of the the Boyers of old Russia.

Posted by: vinnieoh | Oct 13 2021 18:12 utc | 172

"Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 12 2021 22:30 utc | 144

From the second article. I noticed the use of alleged and allegations in the same paragraph.

"There are well-documented allegations of systematic human rights abuses on a huge scale in the region.

The vloggers include British expatriates Barrie Jones, Jason Lightfoot and father-and-son team Lee and Oli Barrett, who use their platforms to comment on the West's alleged "lies" and China's government policies.

Posted by: arby | Oct 13 2021 18:24 utc | 173

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 13 2021 8:03 utc | 159:

Right now I am more focused on the current dead and threatened Palestinians, Libyans, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, Yemen.

Don't we all? I totally agree with the gist of your post uncle.

Today we can construct a credible theory on the emergence of life on earth based on evidences and fossil remains; we can credibly trace the footsteps of Lucy who might have been the source of present day human beings; we can figure out how Neanderthal carried on 30K years ago, and yet 70 years after close of the so Jewish holocaust we are still pointing to a few pictures taken by people with known biases and hidden agenda and conclude that 6+ millions of Jews died in ovens? Give us some CREDIBLE evidences, PULEESE!!!!!!!

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Oct 13 2021 18:33 utc | 174

Thanks, mastameta @ 149. Your explanation of Chinese perceptions of the two schools of thought in their heritage makes a lot of sense. It reminds me of a short verse from Saint Paul in one of his letters - "Hold fast to the good".

And to b, recovering from his own personal invasion, for me it is always good to have an excuse to go back to a book that's maybe gathering dust on the shelf - see how it reads after all the world's turnings have brought us here. It's a bit like visiting once more a homeland we thought we had left behind - what we thought we knew as compared to what we wonder about the future. As when one is standing at the edge of the tide, and it does come in as we expect, pulling the sand from between our toes. In maori terms, paramoana, the sacred edge of the land. Best wishes.

Posted by: juliania | Oct 14 2021 3:44 utc | 175

you can also replace china "the dark side" with "at what cost" for an additional round of dozens laughs :)

Posted by: renegat | Oct 14 2021 10:20 utc | 176

RE: Posted by b on October 11, 2021 at 15:35 UTC | Permalink
'Dark Sides'

As ever, words are catalysts of connotations and speculations.

A component part of ongoing attempts at cognitive warfare without including cautions outlined in Mr. le Carre's The Russia House thereby illustrating:

RE but not restricted to:

predicated on MK Ultra and other precedent searches for the “golden fleece/zipless fuck”.

An attempt at framing to include a wide spectrum of the “target audiences' catalysts” whilst illustrating the attempter's perceptions of their “taget audiences” underpinning their attempts/hopes of perception management, and the reticence of attempters to be guided by Mr. Dunkinfield's observation that:

There comes a time in the affairs of men, when we need to grab the bull by the tail and face the situation.

Posted by: MagdaTam | Oct 14 2021 10:21 utc | 177

The dark side always has a lighter foil – it’s the `yin yang’ rule of nature.
So Mr B might have missed out a few `dark’ headlines. Or maybe not, lol!

1.The Dark Side of China’s Food Diplomacy: President Xi Raises a Stink in Bilateral Ties as he serves Smelly Black Tofu to Biden at first meeting ( New Dork Times)
2. The Dark Side of China’s Celebrity Clampdown: Cissy Idols Ordered to Get Tanned. Or Get Banned (Silly Cassandra Moaning Post, Hong Kong)
3. The Dark Side of Beijing’s Tariffs on Oz Spirits : Koalas, Wombats and `Roos Acquire Taste for White Wines (Sydney Yawning Herald)
4. The Dark Side of China’s Power Outage: Evil Communist plot deprives American kids of Xmas toys as factories shut down (Washington Boast)
PS: @Karlof1. Insightful comments. Thanks for the supportive words a few threads ago, have not been able to write.
@psychohistorian. Can’t answer your question about China’s planning processes either– no knowledge in that area.

Posted by: LittleWhiteCabbage | Oct 14 2021 11:50 utc | 178

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 11 2021 16:43 utc | 11

This was a very poor post on your part, Karlof, on almost every issue it touched.

Starting from the historical approach of the consequences of the Mongol invsions, there is little to be found in medieval western sources, which therefore leaves colonialist orientalism out of the picture. In fact, the most prominent western source of the era was Marco Polo's account which treats the Mongols favorably. That is without touching the diplomatic efforts for good relations with a powerful force that could (and did)inflict grievous harm on the hated Muslims.

The grim picture that emerges concerning the Mongol conquests comes almost entirely from EASTERN sources, mainly the victims. From China to Iran and the greater Muslim world to India, the Russians, the Hungarians and the Byzantine Greeks, there is nearly a common approach to the destructive impact of the Mongol onslaught. It is quite disturbing that you consider the (generally mild) assessment of this era by westerners as "orientalism".

As for Bernal's "Black Athena", you simply reversed reality. It was the proponents of this utterly baseless ahistorical theory that used stonewalling tactics to silence its critics, starting with Bernal himself. Anyone who claims without any evidence that Greeks were civilized by imaginary Egyptian colonists cannot be taken seriously and it is despicable to denounce such totally valid criticism as racism. I won't even argue the assertion of Aristotle being educated by the lore of the Library of Alexandria, an utterly ludicrous view, whose critics were denounced as racists.

The "Black Athena" Afrocentric horsecrap, was based in an inversion of white supremacist thinking - all too coincidentally appearing in the US of A - and it mirrors the 1619 project in its later-day liberal mentality. Toss some ahistorical crap mashed with half-truths as history to pose as an enlightened anti-racist, all the while championing modern neocolonialism behind pseudo-liberal values.

Overall, try to be more careful in the treatment of various views in connection to the current cultural offensive that supports the neocolonialist Anglo-American empire. If anything, the latter is buttressing its stance by attacking actual history.

Posted by: Constantine | Oct 14 2021 14:32 utc | 179

October 14, 2021: Bhutan, China sign MoU for 3-step roadmap to expedite boundary talks

Posted by: Antonym | Oct 15 2021 2:08 utc | 180

CEOs like those of Nike prefer China over the US:

Posted by: Antonym | Oct 15 2021 4:23 utc | 181

Taiwan citizens should be asking themselves "Who owns our politicians?"

Fire cannot spread from floor to floor in a 10-storey multi-use building if regulations are being observed and enforced.
Unless, of course, too many politicians are accepting 'favors' to look the other way as part of a deregulated business environment.
Maybe it's time for Taiwan to admit that this kind of skullduggery would be quickly eliminated if they embraced their Chinese origins and logic.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 15 2021 12:36 utc | 182

One Too Many | Oct 11 2021 19:31 utc | 37

Those "journalists" also got it wrong too because it's called the far side of the moon since it gets the same amount of sunlight as the near side.

Nah! It's you that's wrong! It's called the dark side of the moon because it can't see the USA!

Posted by: foolisholdman | Oct 15 2021 14:24 utc | 183

Here's a question I have: why are the American right so stupid, gullible and unwilling to face contrary evidence? So many of these low IQ TV brained trash people, whom I might actually sympathize with regarding their dislike of globalism and NWO stuff, are obsessively repeating fake news about China and its supposed nefarious activities. It's incredibly stupid and so impossible to get them to even engage in any serious discussion of the facts (of which they know zero), and it seems to have become an emotional part of their identity to carp on and on about muhChina. This inspires boundless misanthropy in me and if these imbeciles end up in FEMA camps I will pelt them with rocks, as they deserve to lose.

I guess low IQ tribal normies can't help being what they are, but my dislike for their NPC bullshit now exceeds any sympathy or concern I have for them. The world would probably be a better place if most people jumped off of bridges. Ted Kaczynski was right.

Posted by: Ricky Moore | Nov 5 2021 9:31 utc | 184

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