Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 06, 2021

Why You Should Get Vaccinated But Don't Need A Third Shot

There were again a number of misleading comments about Covid-19 in yesterday's open thread. I have deleted a dozen or so of those.

It doesn't help that the media are currently back at bad reporting about the various vaccine issues.

Here are some clarifications about the current situation:

Q: Why do people who were vaccinated still get Covid-19?

A: The vaccines are not giving a 'sterilizing immunity'. They were not designed for that and never promised to do so. What the vaccines do in fairy reasonable quality is to prepare the body to fight Covid-19 early and effectively. Nearly all people who got vaccinated will be protected from a severe progression of the disease.

Q: If the vaccine does not protect me from getting Covid-19 why should I still take one?

A: SARS-CoV-2, which causes Convid-19, is a new virus and our bodies are not prepared to fight it. The vaccines, by looking like a part of the virus, are teaching the body to fight the real virus. Once that is done special cells in our bodies will remember that fight. As soon as they detect a real infection they will be ready to attack it.

Q: But would that not also happen if just get infected by SARS-CoV-2 without being vaccinated?

A: Yes it would. But the speed at which the body can fight the virus is much slower in unvaccinated people. Speed is of great importance here. Remember that the Covid-19 disease happens in two phases. The virus first attacks in the upper respiratory tract - the nose and throat. Some seven days or so later it goes down into the lungs. It then can cause a so called cytokine storm during which the body overreacts and attacks itself in multiple organs. To avoid a progression into the second phase of Covid-19 the body must fight the virus as fast as possible.

Q: But the vaccine efficiency is waning over time and they are telling us that we need a third or even a fourth shot.

A: Yes, Pfizer and Co want to sell more vaccines. But for most people a third or fourth shot will not be necessary at all. Let me explain:

The vaccines induce certain cells in our immune system (B- and T-cells) to create specific antibodies (proteins) against the virus and to detect and kill infected cells. After the virus is eliminated from the body there is no need to keep the antibodies around. A few weeks after a vaccination or infection the body slowly discards them. The measurable level of antibodies in the blood decreases. This process, which is normal, has been depicted in the press as 'waning immunity'. But that is pretty much nonsense.

Once a vaccine induced infection is fought off special B- and T-cells will remember the fight and what specific antibodies they had to produce to kill the virus. These memory cells will hibernate in our bodies until they are again needed. As soon as a new infection is detected they wake up and start to produce a huge amount of specific antibodies to (again) fight the virus.

Ask a Biologist has a fine explanation of that process:

Toward the end of each battle to stop an infection, some T-cells and B-cells turn into Memory T-cells and Memory B-cells. As you would expect from their names, these cells remember the virus or bacteria they just fought. These cells live in the body for a long time, even after all the viruses from the first infection have been destroyed. They stay in the ready-mode to quickly recognize and attack any returning viruses or bacteria.

Quickly making lots of antibodies can stop an infection in its tracks. The first time your body fights a virus, it can take up to 15 days to make enough antibodies to get rid of it. With the help of Memory B-cells, the second time your body sees that virus, it can do the same thing in 5 days. It also makes 100 times more antibodies than it did the first time. The faster your body makes antibodies, the quicker the virus can be destroyed. With the help of Memory B-cells, you might get rid of it before you even feel sick. This is called gaining immunity.


bigger

Now think of the 'first infection' in the graphic as the vaccination. It has trained the B and T memory cells to fight SARS-CoV-2. Unlike the antibodies the B and T memory cells do not go away. When the next infection comes along the body will be quickly produce new antibodies and wrangle the virus down.

Q: But would not a third or fourth vaccination increase the efficiency with which the body can fight the virus?

A: That probably would happen but the effect would be very marginal. Unless someone is immune-compromised or has some other specific issues it is likely a waste of scarce resources that are better applied elsewhere.

Q: But why has the White House announced a third vaccine shot for everyone?

A: Well, that's actually a scandal the pro-Biden media do not like to talk about.

The White House, which claimed to follow the science, did not follow the science but pharma lobbyists. It announced that everyone would get a third shot before the FDA had collected data on third shots, discussed the issue, and made a decision on it.

Stephen Gowans @GowansStephen - 14:00 UTC · Sep 4, 2021

Here's who it's supposed to work:
FDA recommends -> White House approves -> Big Pharma acts
Here's how it really works:
Big Pharma recommends -> White House approves -> FDA rubber stamps -> Pfizer, Moderna, J&J shareholders (including a hefty part of Biden's cabinet) cash in

The head of the FDA vaccine office and her deputy resigned in protest over the White House announcement as there is not nearly enough data to justify a third vaccine shot. Scientifically there is simply no compelling reason for a third dose. The White House will now have to walk back its statements on the issue.

Q: So there is no reason at all to get re-vaccinated?

A: Currently there is no reason for an additional shot. But the virus is mutating over time and the vaccines we currently have were made to fight the original virus. They are a little less effective against the now predominant delta variant. There will fairly soon be new vaccines that are specifically designed to fight new variants of the virus. People who are in risk groups, the very old and those with diseases that may make a Covid-19 infection more problematic, should probably take those new shots when they become available. For most people they will most likely still be unnecessary.

Q: But what about the reports of vaccinated people in hospitals and ICUs?

A: Those people are probably very old or have significant additional  diseases. The media have overplayed the issue and most reports about severe 'breakthrough' infections are just sensational crap that is not based on actual data. Most people who now end up in the hospitals and ICUs are in fact not vaccinated:

“Most people here are unvaccinated,” says Dr. Ilya Kagan, head of the coronavirus intensive care ward at Beilinson Hospital near Tel Aviv, standing at the bed of a man in his 50s who is sedated and on a ventilator.

If you are vaccinated the chances for you to end up in the ICU is much, much lower than it is for not vaccinated people.

Q: Do you expect to get Covid-19?

A: Yes I do. The virus is now endemic and will likely - over time- infect every human (and many other mammals). But I am now vaccinated and my body has learned and remembers how to fight the virus. It will most likely do that fast enough to prevent extraordinaire damage and a severe disease. After that first infection a second or third will likely happen over the next years and decades. Each one will also reinforce my body's defenses, especially against the then predominant variant.

---

Q: Why is there currently a shortage of microchips?

A: Bill Gates has bought up all the production facilities to produce the chips he is secretly putting into the Covid-19 vaccines.

Note: I will delete comments on Covid-19 that are just stupid nonsense like that last Q+A. I will also delete links to sensational 'snake oil fights Covid' salesmen or other unscientific crap. Repeated offenders will get banned from this site.

Posted by b on September 6, 2021 at 18:47 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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For the last few months there have been far too many alt right anti vax covid conspiracy comments here. They took away from the usual good discussion. More heavy handed policing of those idiots is appreciated.

Posted by: Prof | Sep 6 2021 18:59 utc | 1

Thanks for being a sane voice amidst such informational chaos (as usual).

Posted by: Quo Vax | Sep 6 2021 19:01 utc | 2

Gates should have gone for micropopcorn. That market is way bigger. I mean who microwaves chips anyway? You just eat them right out of the bag. Stupid Gates!

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Sep 6 2021 19:07 utc | 3

I'm in the strange position of being pro wax, but advised by my doctor not to take the shot because the the immune reaction might make my longCovid worse.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Sep 6 2021 19:11 utc | 4

Thanks b

"Big Pharma recommends -> White House approves -> FDA rubber stamps -> Pfizer, Moderna, J&J shareholders (including a hefty part of Biden's cabinet) cash in"

Another symptom of the corruption that thoroughly infects the US body. The 20-year Afghanistan scam that stole trillions of dollars from taxpayers was another cler symptom. The US is a long-haul plutocracy/kleptocracy case.

It's also a super-spreader of the same plutocracy/kleptocracy and other countries should stay social-distanced and vaccinate themselves.

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Sep 6 2021 19:15 utc | 5

sorry, typo: cler -> clear

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Sep 6 2021 19:16 utc | 6

I tend to agree with the article but I want to add the distinction between two types of effectiveness: the direct harm the virus does and how infectuous it is. While the vaccines keep you out of hospital and probably will do so for a long time, their protection against becoming infectious is questionable and that would mean the 'breakthrough infection reproduction factor' can still be high, especially with more contagious variants like Delta. That means you still have epidemic stages where the virus spreads quickly. Endemic means it does not go away but does not spread quickly. A boost can make a difference there.
One can question whether that is worth it. There is clearly a large effect of diminishing returns , as there is with vaccinating the young as well.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Sep 6 2021 19:16 utc | 7

Great site! But 'm going to pass on vax. I read enough medical/ scientific documents and see friends have somw serious negative effects from the jab. Thank you

Posted by: Patrick Scott | Sep 6 2021 19:19 utc | 8

I'm in the strange position of being pro wax, but advised by my doctor not to take the shot because the the immune reaction might make my longCovid worse.

Anyone with Long Covid should go to the Front Line Critical Care Alliance website.... flccc.net
and download their treatment protocol for long COVID. I recommend sufferers of long COVID contact members of the alliance (all MDs) for a tele-consultation of their case, and a prescription for a treatment regime.

INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Sep 6 2021 19:20 utc | 9

I don't believe that your description of how vaccines work fits the mRNA pseudo vaccines and for many of us, it is this difference that is making us stay away from the "vaccines" that are available to us.

Also some of us believe that they have been lied to about the availability of Covid treatment and prophylaxis usage instead of vaccines and that Ivermectin has been shown itself to be effective as both prophylaxis and as treatment.

I live in America where a normal vaccine for Covid is not available and so I am taking Ivermectin because I do believe that Covid is a threat.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 6 2021 19:21 utc | 10

The vaccines are not giving a 'sterilizing immunity'. They were not designed for that and never promised to do so... The virus is now endemic and will likely - over time- infect every human ...

So why do we need to give children an experimental vaccine?

The disease is extremely unlikely to lead to severe illness in children. Children with underlying heath issues or cautious parents could still be vaccinated.

Yet teens (and their parents) are being pressured to get vaccinated with these experimental vaccines that have no long-term data to prove their safety.

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If you talk to young people today about the shots, many say that they want to get vaccinated due to feelings of guilt: they feel that if they don't vaccinate they might cause someone's death.

But that guilt is not based on reality: we are told that the problem today is "an epidemic of the vaccinated" but virtually ALL of the people filling up emergency rooms are NOT children, they are ADULTS that have choosen not to get vaccinated. The guilt is simple due to a propaganda compaign that targets young people.

Children are being pressured because of a healthcare system (and their political lackeys and media assets) that is concerned that their profits might be eroded by a conversation about personal responsibility in healthcare. And Big Pharma (and their political lackeys and media assets) are happy to get paid for tens of millions of additional shots.

ADULTS, especial those that are susceptible, that CHOOSE not to vaccinate should bear the cost of that choice. Insurance companies should not have to cover that cost - which ultimately gets passed to the rest of us in higher insurance cost, and people should not feel guilty about those who die because they made a choice to live as they want to.

Also consider this: every shot given increases that chance of virus mutuation because these "vaccines" protect against the complication known as "Covid-19", not the virus itself. 'Natural immunity' from having been infected by the virus provides a much more robust protection against similar virus (as proven by an Israeli study).

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 6 2021 19:24 utc | 11

Anything about Mrs van der Leyen's husband or it also forbidden to criticize the EU?

Posted by: Mina | Sep 6 2021 19:29 utc | 12

Jörgen Hassler @4, I remember seeing news reports saying that some long-haul patients have been helped by getting the vaccine, for what it's worth ...

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Sep 6 2021 19:30 utc | 13

I have been looking at local data comparing the wave in January and the wave in July here in Spain. It got again into elder care centers. Vaccination is 95% or more in this population segment and mortality per confirmed case only got down by half. The western approach of getting everyone infected, with or without vaccines, will continue killing a lot people. And western life expectation will keep going down in the next years. I don't expect improvements in vaccines soon but hopefully nothing much worse than Delta will show up.

Posted by: ThePaper | Sep 6 2021 19:32 utc | 14

Jörgen Hassler

Many viruses trigger auto immune type responses - corona virus I suspect more so than others. Some will get over it in weeks, for others it might be many years before it fades away completely.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 6 2021 19:32 utc | 15

We here in the US have successfully defeated Covid by following the Frontline physicians protocol for prophylaxis and treatment. We will watch closely as the side effects become better known. The safest vaccine at this point is likely the J and J because it is a traditional vaccine against the entire dead virus and not just the spike protein. We will take the vaccine when it is proven safe.

Posted by: Nev | Sep 6 2021 19:37 utc | 16

Vaccination also reduces your chances of winding up with long-haul COVID-19, according to a study:

"The odds of long COVID-19 fall by more than half after two doses of vaccine, the risk of hospitalization drops by more than two-thirds, and breakthrough infections are nearly twice as likely to be asymptomatic, according to a UK study yesterday in The Lancet Infectious Diseases."

"Vaccinations lower the odds of long COVID-19 by reducing the risk of any symptoms by 8- to 10-fold and by halving the chances of those symptoms lingering."

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Sep 6 2021 19:37 utc | 17

b,

You said, "I will also delete links to sensational 'snake oil fights Covid' salesmen or other unscientific crap."

Does the NIH (National Institute of Health) qualify?

You can let me know by deleting this post or not.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8056600/


In conclusion, this study demonstrated anti-SARS-CoV-2 activity of A. paniculata and andrographolide using a Calu-3-based anti-SARS-CoV-2 assay. Potent anti-SAR-CoV-2 activities, together with the favorable cytotoxicity profiles, support further development of A. paniculata extract and especially andrographolide as a monotherapy or in combination with other effective drugs against SARS-CoV-2 infection.

This is *not* a sales pitch, it is a link to **ongoing** research.

Some may find it interesting.

Posted by: librul | Sep 6 2021 19:38 utc | 18

The problem with your analysis is that you pretend that the course of the infection is the same in all people. It is not. From the start, almost no one had immunity from infection, but most had immunity from serious illness. It is an important distinction. When our immune systems are naive to the virus, there are no serum level antibodies to stop the spread. Eventually the body will produce these antibodies which recognize structures on the protein covering of the virus and bind them so they cannot enter your cells to reproduce. But before that happens the virus must face the mucosal defenses and the t cell response. These have proven robust in the great majority of people as most infections result in moderate, mild or asymptomatic conditions. The t cells in particular are a viruses worst enemy. Unlike antibodies, that recognize surface structures, the t cells recognize hundreds of sequences within the virus and can enter cells to destroy it. It doesnt have to be as specific as the antibodies to be effective. So vaccines or not, the old and frail will continue to die and the healthy should be moving on from this hysteria.

Posted by: norb | Sep 6 2021 19:42 utc | 19

I can't wait to become infected with covid 1984 and die in my cytokine storm . I am sick of this world and all the nonsense. f it all. this is all so stupid. please god ( i do believe ) infect me with covid 1984 so i no longer have go to work, read about the lies from our so called leaders, live in debt. there is absolutely no point in life. i will miss my daughter, but that is all.

Posted by: lex talionis | Sep 6 2021 19:49 utc | 20

My post @18 appears to still be here, so I will link to another interesting and
ongoing item of research:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.19.435959v1.full

---

Thus, current research is examining two of the most commonly used herbs
on this planet:

- Andrographis paniculata
- Dandelion leaf tea

Posted by: librul | Sep 6 2021 19:50 utc | 21

Would love to know the number of people that had only one shot and stopped vaccination due to disgusting and dangerous side effects. Me included

Posted by: Viktor K | Sep 6 2021 19:53 utc | 22

As a scientist myself I wonder exactly what crystal ball they look into in order to determine just how fantastic the stabs are at keeping one out of the hospital. The vast majority of cases are not hospital material without the vaccine and a large number of those who must go are too elderly or in such poor health that the vaccine is not recommended to them...so....hmmmm

Posted by: norb | Sep 6 2021 19:55 utc | 23

psychohistorian

I believe both Russia and China use remdesivir amongst others as an antiviral for covid. Remdesivir is a brand name drug that would not be used by Russia and China if there were other generic or home grown anti virals. Both countries have tested many drugs for their efficacy- how effectively they reduce virus numbers during the infection.
Anti inflammatorys on the other hand reduce the severity of the decease as the disease consists of both the virus and the over the top immune response. The immune response being responsibly for a great deal of the damage.
Are the anti-inflammatory properties of Ivermectin better than those currently being used for treating this disease? I suspect that has never been tested.

Jörgen Hassler above mentioned that his doctor advised him not to get a vaccination as he is going through the after effects of an infection which has been given the fad term of long covid.
Astra Zenica I believe to be relatively safe and appears to be effective, but for me, a vaccination may be enough to trigger the auto immune condition fashionably known as long covid.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 6 2021 19:58 utc | 24

This is totally insane, and quite frightening really.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 6 2021 20:00 utc | 25

Viktor 22, ivermectin is from soil bacteria, and has been known since 2012 to knock out influenza and RNA viruses.

https://encyclopedia.pub/2895

Unfortunately politics has got in the way of truth.

Posted by: Clifton | Sep 6 2021 20:06 utc | 26

Your 3rd shot summary is in part remarkably good for a layman but it does miss some important points. One is that the absence of data to support giving it to defined populations doesn't mean a thing as long as there is no conclusive evidence to the absence of benefit. The second is that the difference between a resistant mutation and a particularly virulent new strain can't be clear-cut for several months, during which one could possibly have benefited from the third shot.
The most important point, though, is the approval of mRNA "vaccines" in the total absence of mid- and long-term safety of the method itself. Theoretically nothing can go wrong -- but that was also the case for thalidomide and the latter was the cause for regulatory agencies worldwide. Given the presence of Sputnik-V and its good performance, not to mention the many other vaccines made by the tried-and-true methods of vaccine making, the approval, worse, the definitive approval, of messenger RNA administration may have been potentially catastrophic. We won't know soon, or even for many years. Blocking and not even registering the "traditional" vaccines is clearly criminal.

Posted by: Piero Colombo | Sep 6 2021 20:10 utc | 27

So to get it all straight...the stab cant prevent you from hosting the virus nor can it prevent you from passing it to others.

Lets look at this:

In the US, about a third of deaths with covid are 85 years old and over.
Half are 78 and above.
About 80% are over 65.

Looks suspiciously like a pattern to me, but apparently it wasnt considered significant enough to follow up on.
In addition the vast majority have serious comorbidities such as lung problems from smoking, cancer, cardiovascular issues, and immune deficiencies.

Are the vaccines going to be of much use for such individuals?
Who, exactly, are these vaccines for?

Posted by: norb | Sep 6 2021 20:12 utc | 28

institut pasteur says today that delta is more lethal
https://modelisation-covid19.pasteur.fr/evaluate-control-measures/impact-partially-vaccinated-population/

Posted by: Mina | Sep 6 2021 20:17 utc | 29

I'm vaccinated. But if a pregnant woman would choose to wait with vaccinations until after she's given birth, I would totally understand. I remember Thalidomide.

Posted by: Passerby | Sep 6 2021 20:17 utc | 30

If some future version of Fausti
gets it into his head to continue with gain-of-function research
*and* is arrogant enough to apply that research to something
truly devilish like Smallpox
then you will want to learn about what has been forgotten.

The Native Americans discovered the cure for smallpox
but very late, after their numbers had been decimated.

The Micmac or Mi'kmaq are credited with discovering
Purple Pitcher Plant (PPP) (777) as a cure.

In 2012 researchers were able to discern the mechanism.
PPP "...the first effective inhibitor of poxvirus replication at the level of early viral transcription".
Blocks a protein needed for mRNA transcription.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0032610

Native Americans, herbalists and the 2012 researchers used the whole fresh plant
(critical! to use fresh plants, it was learned the hard way that dried plants lose
their value!).

The process used by the researchers is similar to that of early herbalists
except for the amount of time stored before first use (48 days vs 7-8 days).


For the preparation of S.[Sarracenia] purpurea extract, fresh whole plants grown in a greenhouse in the Southeastern United States were shipped overnight express and received at the manufacturing facility (Sedona, AZ). The plants were manually cleaned on the same day, with special attention to cleaning the base portion of the plant's pitcher structure so that it was free from contamination with forest detritus. Cleaned whole plant was ground gently in a Hamilton Beach Stainless steel blender in the presence of a blend of 190-proof grain ethanol/distilled water/vegetable glycerin (63%/32%/5%). The plant/liquid mixture was transferred to an amber colored glass container, sealed tightly, and incubated at room temperature for 48 days. The liquid was pressed from the solid plant material, filtered through unbleached paper filters, pooled, and bottled in amber colored glass bottles.

So, if in some future time the world is faced with a more devastating man-made calamity,
that is, a pandemic from gain-of-function pox then you will be glad you had read MoA.

Posted by: librul | Sep 6 2021 20:24 utc | 31

How many covid vaccines have been developed around the world? Assuming they don't all work exactly the same, should we not have identified the best one by now, and favored those for production and distribution? If some are inferior, why keep using them?

Posted by: rockstar | Sep 6 2021 20:25 utc | 32

I agree with most of your article but I am going to pass on getting jabbed, I don't trust Govt,FDA,CDC,WHO,MSM with big pharma pushing an experimental vaccination. I am a 77 year old healthy male and have done a lot of research online. In my view the Covid rules/restrictions (see, UK, Australia and New Zealand) have become very political and dystopian and a big money making industry. I plan to wait this thing out with an open mind. God bless you all.

Posted by: Johnny Walker | Sep 6 2021 20:29 utc | 33

@norb | Sep 6 2021 20:12 utc | 28

You are not up to date. The median age of hospitalised Covid patients here in the local critical care hospital is currently 55. More than 95% of them are not vaccinated. Makes sense since here in Germany over 90% of the people above 70 did get their jab.

And, btw, no one died from it. ;-)

Thanks again, b, for all the clarification.

Posted by: Cemi | Sep 6 2021 20:42 utc | 34

We don't know now what we will see as variants emerging over the next year. We don't know now what we will learn about the vaccine effectiveness a year from now. Time and events will teach us, or at least those willing to learn, but nobody knows before the time and event. Just don't know.

So we don't know about a third shot, or a fourth, or an annual or semi-annual, or any other option.

We'd like to know, but that does not justify pretending to know what we just can't know now.

Posted by: Mark Thomason | Sep 6 2021 20:51 utc | 35

Thanks for the sensible summary, b.
I endorse your decision to delete comments from edu-phobic COVID Trufers.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 6 2021 20:52 utc | 36

Posted by: Patrick Scott | Sep 6 2021 19:19 utc | 8


I second your opinion (From google because i do not speak english)

Posted by: Roberto | Sep 6 2021 20:55 utc | 37

The alphabet agencies - FDA, CDC, WHO, etc have not recommended preventative care. They have gone with an experimental vaccine that has provided huge profits to big pharma. Now that the efficacy is wearing off, and there are more and more breakthrough cases, and, the delta variant has been able to push the US to higher and higher levels of infection, it is clear that more is needed.

I am vaccinated but I am moving toward a preventative protocol and learning about at home treatments so I can help family and friends if they get covid.

At home treatments to keep people out of the hospital have not been rolled out by the alphabet agencies. There are several protocols.

One based on ivermectin is from a group, Front Line Covid Critical Care associates, flccc.net

Here is a paper they published laying out the case for ivermectin

https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/SUMMARY-OF-THE-EVIDENCE-BASE-FINAL.pdf

There is a lot on their web page including weekly updates recorded, protocols for prevention, when have covid and long haul covid.

There is a propaganda campaign by big pharma against ivermectin and other off the shelf drugs. They are working like mad to have their own pill and home remedy that they can charge big bucks for. Here is an article on that from trialsitenews.com

https://trialsitenews.com/pfizer-ceo-all-but-acknowledges-vaccines-wont-be-enough-here-comes-the-antivirals-billions-more/

trial site news is behind a paywall for most articles and it covers many other trials than those related to covid, but at $5 per month it is a wealth of information

flccc.net founded by doctors treating patients and evolving treatments and fighting against the alphabet agencies, medical journals (recent tweet: the main players have 100 years of practice and 1500 peer review articles but only in the last few months have they had fully peer review articles turned down by the journals), lies in the media, and politics.

for the first time in my life I have gone to conservative sites which sometimes have better medical data. I am worried that the dems have gone too far with the vaccine only strategy and already they are at record cases for this time of year and if later mutants - after delta, there is gamma in Brazil, further appear in the US, there will be more pain, deaths and politicians trying to say something .......

Posted by: Don Midwest | Sep 6 2021 20:55 utc | 38

The knot of wisdom a fool cannot untie; it takes a wise person.

The specific question of boosters for the double vaccinated is a tough knot and as things stand this is the very best article I have seen at explaining that. So thanks for the work and wisdom involved in posting this, b.

Another version of this Ghanaian proverb is "A tough knot needs a tough person".

Posted by: Not a Layman | Sep 6 2021 21:04 utc | 39

As a person wanting truth, peace, and well being for all, I have come to use, refer, respect, and appreciate Moon of Alabama especially in daring to cover the uncovered and counter the obvious lies. Having said that I greatly do NOT appreciate any censorship. It really makes me doubt the honesty and agenda of this blog. Do you have a primary agenda? Partisan ? Or are we after the truth wherever it lies - and the usually indirect and often tortuous path to get to it ? Do you think you, or anyone , can know it all and others may not have truth or partial truth as our knowledge evolves. Greek Dialectics is a very good model for all seeking the truth.

I do appreciate that at least you are honest enough to mention your censorship. PLEASE DO NOT CENSOR ! If you took the time to read the comments you could flag ( and leave them ) or comment on them and counter them if you think erroneous. Other than total , obvious, commercial spam I would hope you let all express themselves , respect their opinions, allow US THE READER to form our own opinions and counter them when you feel appropriate to hopefully further enrich us and enlighten us all.

Posted by: Ross Armetta | Sep 6 2021 21:17 utc | 40

One major side effect of Pfizer and Moderna vaccines is Myocarditis. I'm in my 30s and didn't wanna get the shot, but had to due to the need to travel.

I got myocarditis after the second shot and have been having heartache and weakness for more than a month now. Honestly if I knew this is gonna happen I'd take Sputnik or Sinovac.

Posted by: A | Sep 6 2021 21:21 utc | 41

Thanks b. This story needs to be done, but of course it is now here forever as a statement of faith about one's political beliefs.

In the US, at least, tragic results.

The Biden administration could probably have gotten many more Republicans and Independents to vaccinate, if they gave the Trump administration credit for arranging fast and sufficient production of the vaccines. Yes despite Trump's many offenses and failings. But of course the public is assumed to be too dumb to even try to separate those things.

As I said before, the people who are getting hospitalized the most, are the retirement-age who refused the vaccin. No help here from the confused CDC messaging, and marketing-genius "persuasion" strategy based on insults.

The policy problem remains. Workplace mandates, restaurant bans, and yet more insults will do nothing to convince the people who are retired and skeptical. They are the ones who actually need it.

Posted by: ptb | Sep 6 2021 21:22 utc | 42

Agreed b, but here is the problem: what if employers and governments mandate additional boosters? I don't think forwarding the link to this article is going to cut it if I say no. I've had both Pfizer jabs, so don't delete me just because I'm raising questions!

Also, you speak in mystical terms (e.g., by making the vaccine into the subject of predicate sentences) but sneak the real social relations (Pfizer wants to sell more vaccines) in through the back door.

Q. Is there a universal principle here or a commercial imperative? Hint: It can't be both.

Posted by: Patroklos | Sep 6 2021 21:23 utc | 43

An additional problem with Pfizer and Moderna is the fact that their mRNA vaccines are much more expensive to produce, transport and storage. It is simply not realistic to imagine them monopolizing the world market, no matter how much the USG tries to contain the Sputnik V and the Chinese vaccines (which can be stored in normal freezer and can last in room temperature for two weeks). The Third World will largely use Chinese (and, to a lesser extent, the Russian Sputnik V) vaccine, it will be the vaccine that will save the day for humanity when it is all gone and done - there will be no super advanced very low temperature freezers in Africa, SE Asia, Latin American or India, and they'll not spend fortunes on liquid nitrogen just because some random American must make a quick buck on Wall Street.

As a result, the struggle for the markets of the First World are fierce. First, Pfizer, Moderna and J&J acted to implode AstraZeneca (the other one that doesn't need special freezers) with the blood clot stories. Then, Pfizer and Moderna teamed up to implode J&J. Moderna then disappeared because it is small and all people talk in the West is Pfizer (in Brazil, it seems there's a last pocket of resistance for AstraZeneca, where president Jair Messias Bolsonaro is clearly doing whatever is in his powers to favor the company over the Sputnik V, Pfizer and Sinovac). Now, there's this story of the "booster shots".

Those "booster shots" story is so pushing the envelope that even pro-USA WHO immediately contested it, stating it is more important to double dose everybody first. The problem here is that, to make things even worse, at least one third of the American adult population doesn't want to get vaccinated in any circumstance: they're fundamentally (ideologically) anti-vaccine. This is bad news for Pfizer, because the USA is the main consumer market of the First World. Another bad news for Pfizer is that its push for immediate booster shots will only breed new, resistant variants, further eroding their vaccine's reputation to the eyes of the masses.

The capitalist elites from the West are losing their universality. What they decide is not being obeyed unconditionally and immediately by the rest of the world anymore. Their products are not automatically the best anymore. For the first time in a century, they're having to make do with the leftovers, or share equally, the world market.

Posted by: vk | Sep 6 2021 21:28 utc | 44

If you want to recommend them, b, that is perfectly fine.

Unfortunately, and unless you have been asleep for the past three months, that is not the issue that most people want to hear commentary on from a trusted source.

If you are unprepared to make a statement as to whether you condone mandating these vaccinations for persons to conduct essential business and to be employed, then please preface your suggestion to vaccinate with such an advisory statement.

I for one am prepared to lose my job and will do so when my employer terminates me by their prescribed deadline.

Instead, with this post you have left us to continue to ponder your thoughts on the matter and whether your steadfast refusal to acknowledge the 100s of thousands of people who are OUT IN THE STREETS in the west to protest these passports in fact tells us all we need to know about your feelings on this subject.

The man who can spot a western-funded color revolution a thousand miles away is quiet when it comes to a genuine, grassroots mass-movement that is based on common-sense and prudence in medical interventions.

Tsk-tsk, b.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Sep 6 2021 21:28 utc | 45

Dear Sir - in the end, the question is: do folks support mandatory shots for this or any other disease? If you think people should be compelled to take these shots - no matter what the circumstance - please say so.

I don't go backwards in threads so if I am one of the offending parties, I sincerely apologize. Obviously many of your readers feel strongly about this issue to the point that folks complain when it is talked about - and indeed you have done your best to leave it alone and focus on other things. Totally appreciate that. But it is the #1 issue of our times, and deserves wide and free conversation imo.

However I think you've made yourself clear, and while an irreverent nonconformist, I will not shit on the carpet. Cheers.

Posted by: gottlieb | Sep 6 2021 21:31 utc | 46

Cemi you are wrong. I said deaths not hospitalizations. Try to read better before commenting. And I must say, keeping up with your local health stats is pretty low priority. Obvious agenda is obvious.

Posted by: Norb | Sep 6 2021 21:32 utc | 47

Continuing from Sep6 19:24 @11

After manipulating children to feel guilty about getting vaccinated, they allow them to get the shot without parental consent.

Children can get Covid-19 vaccine even if their parents are opposed, UK minister says

UK will ask the parents, sure, but if the parents refuse, they will apparently give a shot if the child wants it. I wouldn't be surprised if the same applies in USA.

What pressing matters will parents be overruled about in the future? What commercial interests trump your rights as a parent? Shall we jail mom's that won't let their kids eat junk food? ... attend a political rally? ... post revealing pics to onlyfans.com?

<> <> <> <> <>

ONCE AGAIN: The only reason I can see for making healthy teens (and they are aiming at pre-teens as well!) get vaccinated is because healthcare companies don't want to cover the cost of ADULTS that refuse to be vaccinated AND don't want to engage in the public debate that would ensue if they did.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 6 2021 21:39 utc | 48

My only comment on the issue is that some posters had expressed concern about "the spike protein" that gets created as a result of the mRNA treatments. It seems some felt that having this "spike protein" circulating in their body would be hazardous. I would like to point out that this is not like having miniature railroad spikes or tiny caltrops or some such thing adrift in one's blood and ripping blood vessels and organs up. These proteins are at a molecular scale and cannot cause cellular scale physical damage.

Just so that people know, one can eat ground glass without harm. The sharp particles in ground glass are many orders of magnitude larger than the "spike proteins" produced from the mRNA treatments and thus far more likely to be able to injure cells. As you move up in scale to larger sharp things the risk of injury increases. Likewise, as you move down in scale to smaller sharp things the risk decreases. The "spike proteins" in question are pretty much at the bottom of that scale.

And then there is the issue that the "spike proteins" are not even sharp to begin with. They do not carve their way through cell walls and instead have molecular binding sites on their surfaces that happen to be compatible with binding sites in receptors on cell walls. Think of these binding sites more like jigsaw puzzle pieces from different puzzles that just happen to fit together.

This is not to say that having lots of these proteins loose in your body is harmless. I don't know that one way or another. I just want to make clear that they are not floating about punching holes in people's innards.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 6 2021 21:45 utc | 49

Some herbs have mild antiviral properties. Some might even cut down the severity of the covid effection or the runaway immune response. The same with meds like ivermectine. Vitamin levels (D) have an influence.

As any serious research in these remedies is immediately being blocked by the treat of defunding the department of the particular university, it will take years before any of them has any chance of being approved. Some set-up-to-fail projects come trough, like giving ivermectin to dying patients.

There are some hidden clues in Worldometers, although it requires some calculations (copy the numbers in excel, look at incidence and mortality) and knowledge about what is being used where (like ivermectin in the tropics, carvatrol in Venezuela (compare the numbers with Colombia!!!) and Artemisia in parts of rural Africa. Some countries, like Peru, Mexico and parts of India have had a change in persription policies.

Posted by: Rootman | Sep 6 2021 21:46 utc | 50

What's about vaccines?

MoA, free advertising for mRNA & Pfizer and not even a word for Sinovac?

Isn't Sinovac an authentic vaccine?
Isn't Pfizer a kind of unknown snake oil?

Shouldn't b. Self banned? Or joint venture to the Saker?

My God, what a klusterfuck!

I believe in God, not in Pfizer and BigPharma morons.

Wake up will be painful. Sorry guys.

Posted by: NotInMyName | Sep 6 2021 21:54 utc | 51

3rd shot? You are way behind the curve on that one.

Israel says get ready for 4th vaccine dose

When that doesn't do the job, there will be the fifth ...

When do you (the reader of this) say enough is enough?

Posted by: Arfur Mo | Sep 6 2021 21:58 utc | 52

b, you miss a number of important considerations which have a very significant bearing on vaccination.

What is the mortality / injury rate of the vaccine?

What is the mortality rate / injury rate of the disease for under 50's?

If the vaccination protects you, why is it any of your business whether I decide to take it?

If the vaccination does not prevent me from infecting you, why is it any of your business if I refuse to take it?

Posted by: Tim | Sep 6 2021 22:12 utc | 53

Vax or Let Die?

Your "new normal" is frightening

B.

What the vaccines do in fairy reasonable quality is to prepare the body to fight Covid-19 early and effectively. Nearly all people who got vaccinated will be protected from a severe progression of the disease.

What's the next step: natürlich, mandatory Pfizerization

Jackrabbit


ADULTS, especial those that are susceptible, that CHOOSE not to vaccinate should bear the cost of that choice. Insurance companies should not have to cover that cost - which ultimately gets passed to the rest of us in higher insurance cost, and people should not feel guilty about those who die because they made a choice to live as they want to.

Next step, if you smoke or smoked, what's about medical coverage for cancer? Or heartdesease if you eat more than once a week Pizzas or McDonald's?

What's the ultimate step? Tracking apps on your Visa card and GPS? What are you drinking, who are you dating, where are breathing?

I can't breathe


Posted by: Minority Report | Sep 6 2021 22:23 utc | 54

"Q: But what about the reports of vaccinated people in hospitals and ICUs?"
Also, some of them most probably weren't vaccinated but got a certificate nonetheless. I'd assume 99% of Israeli ultra-orthodox aren't vaccinated at all, yet I bet many of them managed to get fake passes. There are cases of forgeries and doctors selling fakes all across Europe.

Now, I'm eagerly awaiting the moment governments will wise up and put an official deadline beyond which unvaccinated people who don't have a medical reason not to will simply not be hospitalized anymore, because it would be fucking vile to fill up ICUs with selfish retards and let sensible citizens who have heart attacks or accidents die because all beds are already taken.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Sep 6 2021 22:24 utc | 55

I put this on the wrong thread so repost here

The old quarantine station at Albany, Western Australia.
https://www.dlgsc.wa.gov.au/sport-and-recreation/recreation-camps/camp-quaranup/camp-quaranup

The Spanish flue in Australia. https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/influenza-pandemic

All Americans have known is big pharma and its so called freedums. For Australia big pharma is a much more recent phenomena.
The Australian government used to actually do a few things for the people, invest in medical and scientific research.
To me, quarantines and lockdowns are not so much an issue. What is an issue for me os the total fucking incompetence of the government that causes many of the lockdown. Hotel quarantine for all incoming travelers. The cause of every frigging lockdown since the very first outbreaks were brought under control. Not a thought about the government setting up dedicated quarantine centers and proper testing for people arriving from overseas.
Not a though about quickly upgrading our vaccine manufacturing ready to produce large amounts locally when vaccines were developed.
Waiting for the crumbs off the table from their lords and masters, rather than obtaining them or the manufacturing licences from whoever developed vaccines.
Now the delta variant is here, very few vaccinated with choice of blood clots, roundup, delta or all three combined.
What a shit show of a government.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 6 2021 22:19 utc | 177

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 6 2021 22:25 utc | 56

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 6 2021 21:45 utc | 59

Dear William, thank you for your explanation. That should put to rest any concerns of people who thought the spike protein was sharp. I didn't read anyone expressing that concern, but I guess you did, so I'm not criticising but I'd like to offer an alternate view.

I believe the concern mostly expressed regarding the spike protein is that it is cytotoxic, not sharp. The vaccines are designed to stay in the deltoid muscle - they don't. Instead it spreads around the body, in the bloodstream in 2-8 hours and then accumulating in the bone marrow and ovaries by 48 hours.

That is *not* what was expected by the vaccine designers. That was a surprise to them.

It may mean nothing, it might be of no consequence. But we don't know yet what the long-term effects of this concentration in bone marrow and ovaries might be. We simply don't know. Leukemia can take years to develop, likewise ovarian cancer 3-9 years. Dysmenorrhoea would show up sooner, and then birth defects in a year or so, and infertility would take at least a couple of years to show up. So while people can argue back and forth, I don't think we know yet and we won't know for years if the vaccines end up being safe. There is however some reason to at least be cautious and to be on the lookout for an uptick in certain illnesses.
Moreover, unless these risks are properly discussed and people understand the potential risk, even if its unknown, then can they really be said to be informed in order to provide informed consent?

herzliche Grüße

Posted by: Deltaeus | Sep 6 2021 22:28 utc | 57

I'll be using the UK delta variant data also mentioned in the article @ 35. See table on pages 21-22.

Age ≥ 50
For vaccinated people (2 doses), we have: 1054 deaths out of 51420 cases, therefore 2% fatality
For unvaccinated people, we have: 437 deaths out of 6724 case, therefore 6.5% fatality

The conclusion is that vaccination significantly reduces the risk of death due to covid-delta variant.

Age < 50
For vaccinated people (2 doses), we have: 37 deaths out of 62403 cases, therefore 0.06% fatality
For unvaccinated people, we have: 99 deaths out of 212989 cases, therefore 0.05% fatality

We have to account for some self-selection: people who choose the vaccine are more likely to have underlying health conditions than those who eschew it. Still, the data doesn't conclusively show risk reduction for this age group. A benefit-risk analysis would also consider the risks of vaccination, mentioned in this op-ed, especially for those who have already developed natural immunity.

In sum, b's blanket statement that "you should get vaccinated" is not sound advice for all age groups, and neither is his assertion that "severe 'breakthrough' infections are just sensational crap that is not based on actual data".

Posted by: s | Sep 6 2021 22:36 utc | 58

b, thank you for mentioning the facts relating to memory cells.
It is important for people to reason with true facts instead of ideas that fit an ideology but don't correspond to reality. Pro-vaxxers have been using the natural and expected reduction of antibodies to push for boosters, which is unscientific. Anti-vaxxers have been using the stats as evidence that the vaccines do not work - the fact of reducing antibody levels do not support that conclusion.

If anyone wants to show that the vaccines do not work, they would need to use different statistics, such as the proportion of people who get infected/seriously ill/die and stratify that by unvaccinated/recovered/vaccinated.
I have seen charts pointing both ways so at this point I'm not sure.

Posted by: Deltaeus | Sep 6 2021 22:44 utc | 59

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 6 2021 22:40 utc | 75

Yes, you are right. Perhaps I was being overly-charitable.
Its hard for me to overcome the sense that so many things are strange or anomalous. And all of these anomalies point in one direction - they just happen to be in favour of large pharmaceutical profits. But giving voice to such ideas or voicing doubts or criticism can lead to getting banned, so I try to be as courteous as possible.

Posted by: Deltaeus | Sep 6 2021 22:50 utc | 60

Dear b,
I notice that you didn't mention treatments at all.
A number of multi-drug protocols have been proposed by various doctor groups.
Are you of the opinion that none of these are effective? If you are minded to, I'd be interested to read your analysis on these protocols, and I hope most of your readers would too.

Posted by: Deltaeus | Sep 6 2021 22:54 utc | 61


Trust in me

Pfizer is a very good thing

There are three main strategies for making a vaccine: using a whole microbe, using the parts of the microbe that the immune system recognises, or using the genetic material that codes for the parts of the microbe that the immune system recognises. [...]

The active ingredient of the vaccine is 30 µg of a nucleoside modified mRNA which codes for the spike (S) glycoprotein of the SARS-CoV-2 virus.

The vaccine also contains fats which make up the lipid nanoparticle coat which helps to transport the mRNA into our cells without it being broken down. These fats are:

(4 hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate) – 0.43 mg
2[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide – 0.05 mg
1,2-distearoyl-sn-glycero-3- phosphocholine – 0.09 mg
Cholesterol – 0.2 mg
The vaccine also contains salts to ensure its pH is similar to that of human cells. These salts are:

Potassium chloride – 0.01 mg
Mg monobasic potassium phosphate – 0.01 mg
Mg sodium chloride – 0.36 mg
Dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate – 0.07 mg
The final ingredient of the vaccine is 6 mg of sucrose, which is a sugar that is added to protect the lipid nanoparticle coat at the very cold temperatures the vaccine is stored at (-80 degrees C).


The Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine is made up of the mRNA that codes for the virus’s spike protein, wrapped up in a lipid coat to protect it. When it’s injected into our body, the lipid coat helps the mRNA get taken up by some of the cells that are hanging around in our arm. Once inside the cytoplasm of the cells, the mRNA is unwrapped from its lipid coat and used by our ribosomes to make the spike protein.

mRNA Pfizer code your own cells to produce the spike protein!


"that codes for the parts of the microbe that the immune system recognises"

Are Spike Proteins dangerous? spike proteins are exactly what the COVID vaccines are instructing the body to manufacture in great numbers.
As do the Pfizer jab.

That's far away from a classical vaccine. Why don't we just have a choice?

Posted by: Pr. Kaa | Sep 6 2021 22:59 utc | 62

librul #all

Thank you, wicked humour and all well said. All your suggestions are very valuable and in stock except the Purple Pitcher Plant. I will see if I can grow them in my land. That PPP reference will keep me online for wee while.

Down this way there is goanna oil for sprains and all manner of ailments but I am yet to come across ancient uses of snake oil. There are many modern synthetic snake oils though. Dugong fat is a highly treasured commodity among the melanesian residents of Oz for relief of the agues of age like joint pain plus many other things. I dont recommend the harvest though.

Of interest can any barfly point me to a global comparison/effectiveness study of ALL the vaccines on offer? I am tired of the western focus hype which forces one to choose between the mediocre and the 'innovative'.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 6 2021 23:00 utc | 63

uncle tungsten 81

Hard to tell which is best as little data in the west on the actual effectiveness of the Russian and Chinese vaccines.
What has not been mentioned is Russia finding that a fist small dose and larger second dose provided better immune response. It was then found by Russian ad UK researchers working together that each shot being a different vaccine was better still.
I have not heard of any serious side effects to the Russian and Chinese vaccines and blood thinners like aspirin would mitigate the risk of blood clot with AZ. My though at the moment is that the best vaccine will be a combination of two adenovirus vaccines without it mattering much which two.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 6 2021 23:14 utc | 64

In the interests of keeping the Covid clutter to a minimum and maximise our information sharing on this most important societal issue can I suggest:

- Once a week there is an open Covid page that is managed to the extent of eliminating blatant idiocy or advertising,

- We agree that ferocious argumentation be restrained, (which is usually the case)

- We all behave moderately, and politely censure any Covid comment leakage to other non-covid threads and we accept b's right and capacity to erase covid leaky posts or to assert cancel culture remedies on repeat offenders.

- where b must erase a post due to webserver purity protocols and state impositions he should just post that as justification.

That will solve the annoyance issue that we experience with Covid entrism on other topics and enable open discourse.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 6 2021 23:22 utc | 65

Saved from Open Thread

Bernhard, it is surely your responsibility to remove some of the rubbish on MoA. But deleting at least 15 often interesting contributions with links is much closer to one-way censorship. Do Mina or Rever have the right to challenge the official version of Covid-19? Why should they be censored for leaving erroneous statements and false information, especially from Cemi and VK in this thread that is no longer open but censored. MoA is a collective tool if it remains open, if it becomes a private asset reserved for privileged and invited people, you will waste years of remarkable work.

Covid-19 is not worth that.

Posted by: Mi2 | Sep 6 2021 23:25 utc | 66

All I want to know is if I, as someone who got Covid and recovered, need to get vaccinated or not. Do I need it, or am I good?

Posted by: paul | Sep 6 2021 23:28 utc | 67

When I saw China's reaction in Jan 2020, I thought "Wow, this must be serious". Within a month I was persuaded that this was a bioweapon, and I have no reason to change my mind.
I avoided other people, limited my time in enclosed areas and cranked up my efforts to keep healthy, since I learned long ago in microbiology that there are three variables in determining whether you will get a disease 1) virulence of pathogen 2) dose of pathogen received and 3) underlying health of you body and immune system.
But oddly enough, our overlords did not teach us any of this in the ensuing 19 months of 24/7 propaganda. I find that significant.
And then it turns out that the virus is worse for the elderly, men and the obese. That is never mentioned either.
They started pushing for a vaccine passport almost immediately. I found that suspicious. But at the beginning they said it would be for those who were vaxxed AND those who had recovered and had natural immunity. They have now dropped the natural immunity stipulation, having found that people are SO easily brainwashed that they will believe that a body exposed to and recovering from a disease does not develop immunity, but a body exposed to a mRNA vaccine will develop immunity. I call bullshit and this makes me more suspicious.
Then they outlawed treatments and outlawed discussing treatments and banned and censored any doctor trying to treat patients early. The protocols adopted by US hospitals forbid any treatment until the patient can't breathe, at which point they are admitted to the hospital, given a $3,000 EAU drug and intubated at $39,000 a pop. Why kind of ridiculous protocols are those?
Then they told us that when people died after taking the jab "It was just their time to go". 20 year olds dying of heart attacks is normal? But an obese elderly man dying of covid is a giant unforeseen tragedy and is all the fault of the unvaccinated? I call bullshit again.
Now they are telling us that we need a booster shot every 5 months, because "variants".
Again with the revisionism. It used to be known that viruses mutated (slowly in the case of coronaviruses) to be more transmissable but less virulent, but now they are telling us that the virus mutates rapidly and to be more virulent. Say what?
And now these new variants, which show up simultaneously around the world (against all former epidemiology knowledge, which searched for a Patient Zero each time), are targeting those who Big Pharma is targeting, at this point the unvaccinated and children. Children were unaffected by SARS 2, but now that it's time to get them jabbed, we are regaled with fear porn about children's hospitals filling with sick kids. I find that suspicious.
And "unvaccinated" does not mean what you think it means. It means 1) no jabs 2) first jab of mRNA vax 3) first and second jabs, but less than 2-4 weeks ago and they have now added 4) both jabs, but more than 6 months ago.
Reasonable people who think that they can stave off both the virus and the totalitarians by taking two jabs and no more will soon find out that this is not about being reasonable.
And if they have to release more bioweaponized "variants" to get compliance, they will.
Reasonable people should focus, laser-like, on shutting down the gain-of-function bioweapon research labs closed AND on opposing any medical apartheid OR passports needed for normal human activities.

Posted by: wagelaborer | Sep 6 2021 23:30 utc | 68

"Instead, with this post you have left us to continue to ponder your thoughts on the matter and whether your steadfast refusal to acknowledge the 100s of thousands of people who are OUT IN THE STREETS in the west to protest these passports in fact tells us all we need to know about your feelings on this subject.

The man who can spot a western-funded color revolution a thousand miles away is quiet when it comes to a genuine, grassroots mass-movement that is based on common-sense and prudence in medical interventions.

Tsk-tsk, b.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Sep 6 2021 21:28 utc | 52"

Insightful.

Posted by: norb | Sep 6 2021 23:33 utc | 70

I'm a Berliner!

The Australian state of Victoria will “lock out” unvaccinated people from participating in the economy, Premier Dan Andrews has announced.

“There is going to be a vaccinated economy, and you get to participate in that if you are vaccinated,” Andrews stated. “We're going to move to a situation where, to protect the health system, we are going to lock out people who are not vaccinated and can be.”
“If you’re making the choice not to get vaccinated, then you’re making the wrong choice,” he added.

Andrews did not say what kind of services and venues unvaccinated people would be locked out of, but he said that once Victoria reopens, “it’s not going to be safe for people who are not vaccinated to be roaming around the place spreading the virus.”

Posted by: Sullivan | Sep 6 2021 23:37 utc | 71

@s 74

Yes I think that's the way to look at it for the patterns of immunity in most developed countries. Give or take a factor of 2x variation, depending on age ranges, nation being studied, etc. Can make similar conclusions from Israel data for instance.

Now this doesn't take into account long term effects -- neither those when there are some side effects of vaccines, nor those of mild chronic illness. We're just not going to know for some time.

But if you want to talk about people dying, filling up hospitals etc, that's it.

Posted by: ptb | Sep 6 2021 23:43 utc | 72

B, thank you very much for this. I can understand how much work it is to keep the crazy crap off the site so that it can continue to be useful as a site of discussion. It seems to me that we have had TDS that turned many progressives and even leftists into rabid MIC supporters who also see a right wing domestic terrorist around every corner (and every non-SJW statement), and now we have also had CDS (Covid Derangement Syndrome) that has taken down a few more of our colleagues. Unfortunately there seems to be no vaccine or proper treatment, and the only winners are the elites.

Posted by: Roger | Sep 6 2021 23:49 utc | 73

@Posted by: Bart | Sep 6 2021 23:46 utc | 95

On this site the mainstream media are treated as the propagandist scum that they are, why would you be surprised that they would lie about COVID as well? Especially Rachel Maddow, the Queen of propagandist imperial bullshit? That does not change that COVID is real, and that vaccines do provide some benefit - as believed by the Chinese state; notwithstanding the profiteering scumbags who run the US pharmaceutical companies. We need to separate the wheat from the chaff, not follow the chaff down the work hole of crazy.

Posted by: Roger | Sep 6 2021 23:55 utc | 74

Uncle Tunsten @81

"Of interest can any barfly point me to a global comparison/effectiveness study of ALL the vaccines on offer? I am tired of the western focus hype which forces one to choose between the mediocre and the 'innovative'."

A good question. It is highly unfortuante that this whole event has been Politicised. By that I mean Big Money/Power Politics, not the petty false dichotomy of Left-Right divide-and-conquer bs that gives the appearance of choice in the western oligarchic pseudo-democracies. For a truly independent view, your are best would be to look at vaccines for similar non-contentious coronavirus diseases such as (some variants of) the common cold.

Posted by: Arfur Mo | Sep 6 2021 23:57 utc | 75

I saw just 3 comments about Chinese vaccines.
Seems US propaganda has been very effective in stopping all real reports on Chinese vaccines that has vaccinated 1 billion Chinese, and 300,000 foreigners in China. As a foreigner in China I just had my first jab of Sinopharm. Just a bit of pain at injection point for a day and then back to normal.
China had multi outbreaks last month at Nanjing, Zhengzhou, Zhangjiajie, and Yangzhou. All cleared in a month. Only 1 death from Delta in an earlier Guangzhou outbreak. A few leaks in Yunnan from illegal jungle crossover from Mynamar that are effectively caught and contained.
Much of China's success has been successfully suppressed by MSM.

Posted by: Surferket | Sep 6 2021 23:59 utc | 76

@88 paul | Sep 6 2021 23:28 utc

I wasn't going to comment but you make a sincere request for information.

The traditional science will say that if you've recovered from a viral disease, you have natural immunity ("acquired immunity"). The doctors and scientists I read point out that your immunity typically will not wane, and can last your entire lifetime. Furthermore, your immunity is broad, and covers all the variants that have appeared thus far, and should cover all new variants that remain within this same "family" or species of virus. Acquired immunity is generally regarded as the best to have, and it certainly eliminates any need for vaccine.

Having said all that, I recommend that you learn more than you currently know - that's not dismissive, I intend it very sincerely. We all have jumped into a field we knew little about in order to protect ourselves and others. I suggest this effort (of learning) is a noble one, worth whatever time you can find for it.

~~

Since I'm commenting, many thanks to all who have commented here. I've found it a very polite thread, with countless worthy comments, filled with the knowledge that we all know how hard one has to work to gain.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 7 2021 0:01 utc | 77

Posted by: paul | Sep 6 2021 23:28 utc | 88

If I understand what was said in B's post, having had it already is the best booster for the next time you get it, as far as that goes, but it is still a good idea to keep your imminue system working as well as it can. The chance to eliminate it, if it was there at all, has passed, so if you are around long enoungh, you are likely to get it some time. Whether boosters are a good idea either for COVID virgins of those who have had it, I think it's too soon to say.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 7 2021 0:06 utc | 78

From comment 92 "“We're going to move to a situation where, to protect the health system, we are going to lock out people who are not vaccinated and can be.” (Victorian government - in name and era it seems)

"Protect the health system" - with the weapon of choice, US big pharma.
Nothing about protect the people
US big pharma being introduced into Australia under the brand name "Health System"

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 7 2021 0:11 utc | 79

paul | Sep 6 2021 23:28 utc | 88

As b put in his post, vaccines are given to allow or teach the immune system to recognize the virus and react quickly. Vaccines are look alike, not the same in every way as the genuine article. Your immune system has seen the genuine article, though of one strain. Perhaps the only question would be "will a vaccination help with a different strain".

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 7 2021 0:32 utc | 80

@ Arfur Mo | Sep 7 2021 0:23 utc | 108 with the link to the Covid variant distribution around the world...thanks

Are the variants shown the only ones out there?

It sure looks like some are steady and ongoing also ????

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 7 2021 0:32 utc | 81

b,

Do you agree with draconian lockdowns in Australia/NZ? As a left-leaning populist, doesn't it bother you that the ruling class has been able to grab so much power in such a short time? It doesn't take too much imagination to see how similar rationale can be used to suspend basic rights in the midst of other "crises"

Posted by: Masked Marvel | Sep 7 2021 0:38 utc | 82

Arfur Mo 108

One of the the highest death rates was in China before anything was known about treatment. Many medical staff died.
China has a very healthy population.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 7 2021 0:42 utc | 83

Not a Layman #43

The specific question of boosters for the double vaccinated is a tough knot and as things stand this is the very best article I have seen at explaining that. So thanks for the work and wisdom involved in posting this, b.

Another version of this Ghanaian proverb is "A tough knot needs a tough person".

Loved the rope proverb but can I offer a better one:

If the rope has a tough knot - use a better rope, there are many to choose from.


On the Australian premier in Victoria threatening the unvaccinated that they are not permitted to access the economy and walk about in their society.

YOUR VACCINES ARE NOT WORKING.

There are others available that have a proven application on more people.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 7 2021 0:47 utc | 84

No Vax for me, I already had Covid. You should not get vaxxed, rather keep your Vitamin D3, C levels high and Zinc. This will make sure you get no symptoms or a mild case. The problem with the "magic" gene therapies is people think they are safe and do not worry about nutrition, the vaccines give a false sense of security and open one up to Antibody dependent Enhancement , where you are weaker versus other viruses. there are also the deaths and other adverse events which the government and MSM are trying to suppress.

Posted by: John Neal Spangler | Sep 7 2021 0:54 utc | 85

Paul #88

Yes you are immune but that is not to say a later variant might not impact on you. That is the case with many virus but not all afaik.

However it appears that the mass psychosis is tending toward the binary (as usual) and that without a VAX certificate you will end up in the same tumbrel as the unvaxed.

There appears to be many countries advocating zero recognition of those with antigens to covid due to prior infection. You might get your doctor to give you a certificate as a precaution but I would not rely on that to get you considered.

This is entirely unscientific and absurd and smacks of a corrupted medical practice. Binary Uber Alles.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 7 2021 1:03 utc | 86

John Neal Spangler

Fads and fashions come and go and feed each other. Big campaigned animal fat is bad for you and that is the fashion, then slip slop slap is added. Our source of vitamin D is sun on the skin and animal fat. The fad that is vitamin D supplements cure everything. The modern snake oil. For those that religiously follow various fads and fashions, vit D supplements will help correct their self imposed deficiencies.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 7 2021 1:06 utc | 87

s @74, thanks. That shows that those 50-and-over should consider getting vaccinated to significantly reduce the chance of dying of the Delta variant, not to mention long-haul complications short of death.

To add to what s @74 pointed out, looking at the same Public Health England PDF Table 5 on page 21, among the under-50 seeking emergency care and having the Delta variant, there were 212,989 unvaccinated and 62,403 two-dose-vaccinated.

That suggests that if you're under 50, you're at least 3 times more likely to catch the Delta variant if you're unvaccinated than if you're two-dose-vaccinated.

And given the similar fatality rates, that suggests that if you're under 50, you're at least 3 times more likely to die of COVID Delta if you're unvaccinated than if you're vaccinated ...

(It's probably even more than 3 times given that by July over 60% of those under 50 had had at least a first vaccination dose.)

ps. Some background on "theexpose.uk" which came up with its misleading conclusions: Actors Behind UK Misinformation Site The Daily Expose Revealed (link)

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Sep 7 2021 1:12 utc | 88

b.
I would spend more time on a response if I thought you were open minded enough to comprehend, or neutral enough to absorb. But you are a full cup. I will leave the Tao and time to reveal to you the error in your perspectives. Good luck with your health.

Posted by: Jezabeel | Sep 7 2021 1:12 utc | 89

Arfur Mo #108

Thank you for both posts.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 7 2021 1:13 utc | 90

Your article confuses me. You do not mention the vaccine leaving the injection site and traveling throughout the body. You do not mention the spike protein that others talk about. You do not talk about the spike protein effect on the artery walls. You do not talk about the death rate being higher that from all other vaccines for the last 30 years.

Are other sites and doctors wrong? Are they spreading false information?

Posted by: Brian | Sep 7 2021 1:14 utc | 91

Alaric | Sep 7 2021 1:09 utc | 125

Bullshit. The flu in various iterations has been around just as long. Various flu pandemics have killed of large numbers.
The particularly bad one of the early 1900s is gone but has been a few minor pandemics since then.
The only difference between Spanish flu and coronavirus is the age groups they target and medical knowhow.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 7 2021 1:18 utc | 92

The issue should surely be that governments in North America, Europe, Australia and many other places are politicising the injections in ways that:

(a) control and shape public opinion and dissent by denying certain groups of people their civil liberties in arbitrary ways;

(b) make the injections a form of border control to police who can and who can't leave or enter;

(c) help enrich the Big Pharma corporations by restricting the public's right to know what injections or vaccines are available, denying access to effective vaccines and treatments or refusing to recognise particular vaccines as valid for vaccine passports (as in the case of San Marino who initially relied on Italy for Pfizer-BioNTech doses, couldn't get any because it's not part of the EU so it got Sputnik V doses instead and now San Marino residents, having received the Sputnik V double shots, are now stuck because Rome won't recognise Sputnik V as a valid alternative) with the result that Big Pharma then throw more donations into politicians' war chests;

(d) help dismantle current public healthcare infrastructures (by insisting that doctors, nurses and others take mandatory injections, forcing many who are sceptical about them to quit their jobs) to be replaced by private healthcare institutions and structures.

MoA barflies should also be aware that it would not be beneath Big Pharma corporations to bad-mouth rival corporations' injections and treatments by exaggerating the side effects of those injections and treatments.

Unfortunately here in Australia we don't have much choice between two lots of injections (AZ and Pfizer) and I live in an area where at least 70% have already had at least one dose of either. After talking with my GP, doing my own research and realising I'm probably at risk at getting COVID-19 from someone who's already had a jab (and may be asymptomatic for the disease), I'll have to front up for my first jab this week. I decided to get AZ in spite of the bad publicity it has had.

In "doing my own research", I have seen many of the arguments and online posts from the anti-vax camp including the Japanese rat study that has been mentioned earlier in this thread (the one that found that after 48 hours the nano-lipid in the Pfizer-BioNTech shot concentrates in a number of organs with the ovaries having the most concentration) and claims about graphene oxide and polyethylene glycol being found in all the major vaccines used in the West.

Polyethylene glycol (PEG) is indeed present in both the Modern and Pfizer mRNA shots, it's the nano-lipid that enables the mRNA coding for part of the coronavirus' spike protein coating to enter the cell. The equivalent in the AstraZeneca and Sputnik V shots is polysorbate 80 which is chemically similar (and could possibly be mistaken for PEG). People can be allergic to PEG or polysorbate 80.

Paul J Turner et al, "COVID-19 vaccine-associated anaphylaxis: A statement of the World Allergy Organization Anaphylaxis Committee", World Allergy Organization Journal, Volume 14, Issue 2, February 2021 (ScienceDirect.com)

Posted by: Jen | Sep 7 2021 1:40 utc | 93

a family member in the Philippine Islands had been unlucky ... he got the virus (late June/early July), recovered, got the vaccine, and got the virus again (late Aug, didn't check the variant due to out-of-pocket cost). the 2nd time he got the virus, his wife (my sister) and teen-aged son got the virus. my father, mother (1x sinovax) and youngest sister (they live separately but a family visit might have spread the virus) also got the virus at this time. all were mild symptoms, they just isolated and didn't require hospitalization.

brother-in-law and father was lucky. both of them have co-morbidities (prostate) with my father undergoing hormonal therapy at the moment.

as for me, i am not vaxxed and live in a different country. we use ivermectin and steroids for confirmed cases here. my main concern is that there is really still study about the long term results of these vaccines. i'm 45 years young. if i get the virus and kill me outright, it is OK with me. a risk i am willing to take. without this long term study, i do not want to get the vaccine and possibly suffer for the rest of my life.

Posted by: r | Sep 7 2021 1:53 utc | 94

CC @ 127

You say 60% of UK population aged < 50 had at least one dose by July, but you compare the delta-variant cases among fully vaccinated with the cases among unvaccinated. An apples-to-apples comparison would be to add recent 1st dose (27715) and distant 1st dose (74255) to those fully vaccinated (62403), thus getting 164373 to 212989 or 43.6% of cases among those aged < 50 with at least one dose. It's a non-trivial risk reduction for sure but not as compelling as what you said.

A more accurate analysis would also consider the pace of vaccination among those aged < 50 in relation to the spread of the delta variant, and would disaggregate those with a prior infection from both the vaccinated and unvaccinated samples.

Posted by: s | Sep 7 2021 2:02 utc | 95

Canadian Cents @ 127:

That link to the Logically.ai website also led me to this article posted on the same website: Kristina Gildejeva's "Exclusive: Russian Medical Staff Unprotected, Unpaid and Silenced by the State".

Gildejeva uses the Doctors' Alliance as one of its sources in her article. This is an organisation founded by Dr Anastasia Vasilieva, who happens to be Alexei Navalny's eye doctor and a member of his groupie circle.

In April 2020 Dr Vasilieva and about 11 others breached lockdown orders in Moscow and surrounding areas to take boxes of PPE in three cars to two hospitals in the Novgorod area. Most of the people accompanying the doctor were camera crew with one lawyer and a journalist: they were filming during the trip so they clearly knew they were likely to be stopped by police and apprehended for breaching lockdown and for not socially distancing.

They were indeed arrested and imprisoned for a time. The PPE was delivered to the hospitals which could not use the materials because they carried no certification so staff had no way of knowing if the stuff was even legal for use in Russia or met quality standards.

Gildejeva is a Media Monitor with the U.S. Embassy in Riga, Latvia, and presumably knows the Meduza group of Russian-language reporters based in Riga. Kevin Rothrock is Managing Editor of Meduza.

Please be very careful in who you quote.

Posted by: Jen | Sep 7 2021 2:07 utc | 96

Jawohl b-

Now that you approve of the vaccine poison I will run off and get my vaccine x2, but you say no third or fourth or fifth? Is that your professional opinion and Medical advice- You offer that advice for free ? Wow, and if anyone disagrees you will censure, delete and omg, gasp BAN them ?

Hey b, what do you think they do and make at Porton Downs and Ft Detrick?

Please tell us all what you think about mandating the poison experimental vaccines?

b- what happens when the vaccinated get covid? I mean do they lose their vaccine card or just get the next vaccine booster and get a new card?

Thank You so much for giving Medical advice Dr b Mengele.

Posted by: CitizenX | Sep 7 2021 2:14 utc | 97

The vaccination race by country https://tinyurl.com/y23v8smk
Daily Doses per 100 ppl
U.S. 0.2
Iran 0.6
Cuba 1.4
Percent who have had at least one shot
U.S. 60%
Iran 20%
Cuba 50%
-------------
This is a very good showing for the two countries under U.S. murderous global trade embargo. Both Iran and Cuba have had to manufacture their own vaccines. Iran got some Sputnik V but not in significant quantities. It really looks like Russian production is muted.
-------------

Separate note, I keep hearing Cuba's national anthem in my head. The theme for 'I Love Lucy'.

Posted by: Christian J. Chuba | Sep 7 2021 2:17 utc | 98

Jen | Sep 7 2021 1:40 utc | 139

With the AstraZeneca vaccine, you have to be careful to not inject into a vein, because that creates a risk of thrombo-cytopenia. It must be injected into muscle tissue. Correct application can be ensured by aspirating the syringe before injecting; if blood is drawn, a vein was hit.

I am somewhat amazed that this is never mentioned in any of the media mentionings of the AZ side effect.

For discussion and references, check out my earlier posts here and here

Posted by: Lurk | Sep 7 2021 2:20 utc | 99

Guess what? same shit as above with the mRNA Pfizer jab:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34406358/

Intravenous injection of COVID-19 mRNA vaccine can induce acute myopericarditis in mouse model

Abstract

Background: Post-vaccination myopericarditis is reported after immunization with COVID-19 mRNA-vaccines. The effect of accidental intravenous injection of this vaccine on the heart is unknown.

Methods: We compared the clinical manifestations, histopathological changes, tissue mRNA expression and serum levels of cytokine/chemokine in Balb/c mice at different time points after intravenous(IV) or intramuscular(IM) vaccine injection with normal saline(NS) control.

Results: Though significant weight loss and higher serum cytokine/chemokine levels were found in IM group at 1 to 2 days post-injection(dpi), only IV group developed histopathological changes of myopericarditis as evidenced by cardiomyocyte degeneration, apoptosis and necrosis with adjacent inflammatory cell infiltration and calcific deposits on visceral pericardium, while evidence of coronary artery or other cardiac pathologies was absent. SARS-CoV-2 spike antigen expression by immunostaining was occasionally found in infiltrating immune cells of the heart or injection site, in cardiomyocytes and intracardiac vascular endothelial cells, but not skeletal myocytes. The histological changes of myopericarditis after the first IV-priming dose persisted for 2 weeks and were markedly aggravated by a second IM- or IV-booster dose. Cardiac tissue mRNA expression of IL-1β, IFN-β, IL-6 and TNF-α increased significantly from 1dpi to 2dpi in IV but not IM group, compatible with presence of myopericarditis in IV group. Ballooning degeneration of hepatocytes was consistently found in IV group. All other organs appeared normal.

Conclusions: This study provided in-vivo evidence that inadvertent intravenous injection of COVID-19 mRNA-vaccines may induce myopericarditis. Brief withdrawal of syringe plunger to exclude blood aspiration may be one possible way to reduce such risk.

Keywords: COVID-19; SARS-CoV-2; intramuscular; intravenous; mRNA vaccine; mouse model.

(Fulltext pdf here)

Posted by: Lurk | Sep 7 2021 2:23 utc | 100

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