Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 21, 2021

"What Happens When China Becomes Number One?"

Kishore Mahbubani is an experienced Singaporean civil servant. He later became Dean and Professor in the Practice of Public Policy at the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy at the National University of Singapore.

In 2015 he gave a talk at the Harvard Kennedy School's Institute of Politics under the title "What Happens When China Becomes Number One?"

The video of the talk was uploaded earlier this year. The interesting part starts at 28:00 min where he begins to show a proverbial mirror to the audience.

He ends his talk with this:

Would the United States be comfortable living in a world where China behaves just like America did when it was the sole superpower?


Unfortunately U.S. President Joe Biden did not reflect on that question. In his speech today, before the United Nations General Assembly, he again displayed an unnecessary aggressive posture towards China:

Mr. Biden said the world faced a choice between the democratic values espoused by the West and the disregard for them by China and other authoritarian governments.

“The future belongs to those who give their people the ability to breathe free, not those who seek to suffocate their people with an iron hand authoritarianism,” he said. “The authoritarians of the world, they seek to proclaim the end of the age of democracy, but they’re wrong.”

But the president vowed not to pursue a new era of sustained conflict with countries like China, saying that the United States would “compete vigorously and lead with our values and our strength to stand up for our allies and our friends.”

“We’re not seeking — say it again, we are not seeking — a new Cold War or a world divided into rigid blocks,” he said.

To which Blake Hounshell correctly replies:

Blake News @blakehounshell - 14:55 UTC · Sep 21, 2021

Nobody ever says,
“I am seeking a new Cold War.”

I would also add that 650,000 people in the U.S. have lost their "ability to breathe free" over the last eighteen months while China has successfully suppressed the pandemic. Are 'democratic' or 'authoritarian' the right criteria for judging that difference?

In an answer to a question after his talk Mahbubani, who believes that China will soon be number one, he explains (58:00 min):

Unlike the United States of America the Chinese do not believe in proselytizing their beliefs. ... So in a sense we will have a very different world when the world's number one power is no longer a missionary power.

I for one hope for that.

h/t agitpapa

Posted by b on September 21, 2021 at 17:11 UTC | Permalink

« previous page

Smith 99
The speculators, so called investors are being taken down that's for sure. Housing has to be affordable for ordinary people. Here in oz my children have to compete with so called investors who push housing prices far above that of wages.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 22 2021 4:53 utc | 101

@ Peter AU1

Not only housing needs to be guaranteed, but basic services as public transportation, infrastructure, food and social/medical healthcare and pension.

Deng left behind a mess, but Xi is fixing it, I just hope he and his successors can do it. China still has a long way to go to reach the USSR's standards, but it can reach that.

Vietnam must strive for it too, good thing we don't have as many as billionaires as China, yet.

Posted by: Smith | Sep 22 2021 4:56 utc | 102

Smith 102

I have watched a lot of videos coming out of vietnam. Poverty alleviation is a big thing like in China. A number of videos of young people going out from the cities to build houses for the rural poor.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 22 2021 5:06 utc | 103

It isn't just American education and culture that believes like that, American ignorance and boorishness arrives at the same way of thinking

Posted by: jinn | Sep 21 2021 22:34 utc | 50

There is a deep irony in the observation American education and culture delivers an identical outcome to boorishness and ignorance.

Posted by: Sushi | Sep 22 2021 5:06 utc | 104

Offshore Creditors Remain In Limbo As Evergrande Agrees To Pay Thursday's Interest On Local Bonds Only

Beijing may have just found a brilliant solution to the Evergrande problem, effectively rescuing the company and averting a systemic crisis all at the same time:
  • it will pay local bondholders and soft nationalize/bailout Evergrande,
  • will avoid allegations of backsliding on tightening/deleveraging promises and improving "common prosperity" by stuffing foreign creditors.

<> <> <> <> <>

Just as I've been suggesting would happen. Hot money from foreign investors chasing yields get shafted.

Just like would happen if it was a company in a Western country - despite those that claim that China has somehow reinvented capitalism with the implication that excesses/abuses cant happen there.

IMO China allowed the property bubble because it was largely fueled by money from outside the country. Where are the cries of PONZI!! for what the Chinese have done? We won't hear such cries at moa but I suspect that we will from Western MSM.

Note: We can expect that Western MSM will focus on China's favoring Chinese and thus conveniently forget that financial schemes and markets abuse in the West have far surpased the Evergrande failure over the last three decades.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 22 2021 5:14 utc | 105

@ Peter AU1 | Sep 22 2021 1:06 utc | 67... i wonder of the world we are leaving the young people at this point... it is very messed up... you'd think we could make the world a better place, but the predators still seem to be calling the shots.. most people just want to get along, but this small set of sycophants aren't into that and unfortunately they are the same ones in power and always seeking power over others... i wish i was going to live long enough to see us grow up out of this, but i can't see it here now.. i hope you kids do okay.. i don't have any, but i feel like i am connected to everyone and everyone is a relative of mine.. i know we can do better then this..

Posted by: james | Sep 22 2021 5:25 utc | 106

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Sep 22 2021 2:24 utc | 80

And yet India is still Hindu majority after literal centuries of rule by Mughal Empire. Islam spread in Indonesia without any major Islamic empire ever set their foot on the soil. The most powerful person in the Ottoman Empire after the Sultan was technically a slave whom testimony had half the weight in court. Study history first before you spot some nonsensical garbage by putting Islamic civilization into the same category as the genocidal, feudalistic shithole of Christian Europe.

Posted by: Hangar | Sep 22 2021 5:26 utc | 107

Poverty alleviation is fine, but psychological alleviation is also needed: getting out of the always more, more - greed. Former very poor people can also suffer from that I have seen with my own eyes.
A poverty free society is still far away from an ideal society. Still power, money, sex, greed lust continue without brakes.

Posted by: Antonym | Sep 22 2021 5:27 utc | 108


so dump poverty alleviation because they will become greedy?

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 22 2021 6:08 utc | 109

To be fair, Deng Xiaoping did famously said "To be rich is glorious", when a head of state says that, of course it's going to be damaging to the populace, but luckily with Xi, this trend is being reversed, not only poverty is getting reduced, but education is getting better.

Posted by: Smith | Sep 22 2021 6:20 utc | 110

It isn't just American education and culture that believes like that, American ignorance and boorishness arrives at the same way of thinking

Posted by: jinn | Sep 21 2021 22:34 utc | 50

There is a deep irony in the observation American education and culture delivers an identical outcome to boorishness and ignorance.

Posted by: Sushi | Sep 22 2021 5:06 utc | 104

I'll bite ... Western, not only American, education and culture result in boorish and ignorance.

Posted by: Jen | Sep 22 2021 6:31 utc | 111

AUSUK politicians like Pastor Morrison, [aka Scotty from marketing] have a marketing trick for implementing national policy taken from the usual suspect corporate 'mates.'

I have observed the new trick recently from my bank and my telco provider.

It's better than the usual 'bait and switch' trick.

They create an artificial problem for you, like freezing your account or service for no real reason, then they make you call them. That's when the sale / solution comes ; do what they really want in the first instance, but they were not prepared to spell out upfront. Then it's Gotcha time.

Sale closed or nation capitulated.

Posted by: Paul | Sep 22 2021 7:22 utc | 112

Them's fighting words, Joe.

Do you have anything to fight with?

Oh, I see, the freedom you attained by being defeated in Afghanistan, plus the submarines you hope to sell to Australia in twenty years, will enable you to crush China.

Good luck with that. Run along, now.

Posted by: MFB | Sep 22 2021 7:34 utc | 113

“Even in the early post-war years there were two clearly antagonistic schools of thought on world affairs. One stood for the reduction of international tension, the halting of the arms race, the development of international co-operation and the elimination of war from the life of society-:-a fine and laudable approach. It is, indeed, for the triumph of justice that man lives on earth.
“There is, however, a second school of thought, about which we have no right to remain silent. This school stands for fanning the flames of the cold war, for the unrestricted accumulation of armaments and for the destruction of every basis for international cooperation, with all the dangerous consequences which this entails.
“These two lines of policy in international relations have long been in opposition.”

Nikita Krushchev, addressing the UN General Assembly, September 23 1960.

Apart from being a much more erudite and intellectual speaker (surprising from a former coal-miner), compare and contrast the argument with Biden’s.

Posted by: MFB | Sep 22 2021 7:48 utc | 114

Posted by: MFB | Sep 22 2021 7:48 utc | 114

Well said.

Posted by: Paul | Sep 22 2021 7:58 utc | 115

@ Paul

LOL, very nice name for the "alliance".

Posted by: Smith | Sep 22 2021 8:38 utc | 116

I managed to save the short comment before I was timed out:

"Thank you b, our humble artist in a garret, for our open forum, bravo, free speech."

Posted by: Paul | Sep 22 2021 8:47 utc | 117

Grieved | Sep 22 2021 2:06 utc | 76.

"Taoism will sweep all before it by doing nothing, attracting all into itself by reaching for nothing, winning all by desiring nothing."

All is Change. I wonder if the Chinese have gone back to using the I Ching? (As they once did for Policy decisions). At least the inference is that Taoism is still included in current attitudes. Good idea.



You have just seen a master card player, Xi, take the trick.

Opening cards; Evergrande investment vehicle was being used as an entry, a wedge, to force both Chinese and Western "speculators/investors" ("SpecInvest"), to maximise their debt overload, and create a Western financial system by default.
°For the RO-Bankers this was to create a debt bubble that the Chinese Governement would be forced to bail-out (Create a "Western-style" financial debt pyramid).
°Secondary reason was to use Chinese CEO's greed to undermine Chinese authority in favour of creating an Oligarchic class, backed up by both Bank and Government, that "were too big to fail". Who in turn could be manipulated by the"Ro-Bankers").
°Third reason was to get debt denominated in Dollars. (why? use your imagination)

Ripost; Xi let the Evergrande situation get worse.
Object, more speculators would pile in, betting on a bail-out which could allow them to make fortunes (Soros has experience in doing this re; the UK pound and Russian Bonds).
Cause a panic in the Chinese CEO's themselves for their personal futures (I saw that an Asset manager CEO' was sentenced to death without reprieve at the beginning of the year (On Sursis at the moment). Well, traitors are not treated with reverence in China).

General play; The MSM in the west goes to town. v. Pressure is brought on the Chinese Gov. For a bailout. v. The "rot" is discovered in many other related housing bubbles. The "Time-out" is established (Monday?)

Xi plays the ace in the hole. He "Bails-out" only LOCAL Bonds but NOT extraterritorial speculators.
"Beijing may have just found a brilliant solution to the Evergrande problem, effectively rescuing the company and averting a systemic crisis all at the same time:

* it will pay local bondholders and soft nationalize/bailout Evergrande,

* but will avoid allegations of backsliding on tightening/deleveraging promises and improving "common prosperity" by stuffing foreign creditors."

Pooof, ...aaaand suddenly it's gone.

(Actually the outsiders are said to be "in limbo...")
Note that the Wests "master players" behind it all will lose the "wedge" as well.
and for those that don't realise it yet, this is the type of skirmish that will dictate the winner of the "Cash-crash-war".

Posted by: Stonebird | Sep 22 2021 9:29 utc | 118


Do you happen to have a recommendation for background articles on current Vietnam economic development and policy ? Unfortunately it will have to be in French or English. my Vietnamese is very minimal. Thanks

Posted by: phiw13 | Sep 22 2021 10:24 utc | 119

Jackrabbit | Sep 22 2021 5:14 utc | 105

Congrats, you got there first. That's the trouble with being a two fingered typist - it takes me too long.

Posted by: Stonebird | Sep 22 2021 10:40 utc | 120

@ Posted by: Oriental Voice | Sep 22 2021 4:34 utc | 96

Because it doesn't make any sense. Why would the CPC lie about being Marxist-Leninist?

It makes sense for the USA to lie about being a democracy because almost the entire world already is capitalist, and because, if the capitalists are open about their intentions, capitalism would not be as popular.

But the Chinese have nothing to gain by declaring themselves to be Marxists, Marxist-Leninists and socialists. They're sacrificing soft power/propaganda points by doing so. Why are they doing it then?

The answer to this question can only be one: because Marxism and Marxism-Leninism are essential for China's success and therefore (in this dangerous world, where there's capitalist aggression non-stop) for its survival. They're worth the negative propaganda points. And they can only be worth this cost because they're ultimately scientifically true, therefore give to the Chinese a concrete return.

It would be much easier, for soft power and propaganda purposes against the West, for the CPC and the Chinese to claim they're a bunch of orientalists who follow Confucius and - as some commenter here absurdly suggested - consult the I Ching for their policies. They would lubricate their foreign relations with the West much easier if they told the rest of the world such lie. But that's not the Marxist way: its way is building working class consciousness, enlightening and liberating the masses from their shackles of capital. And you can only do that by developing the productive forces.

Posted by: vk | Sep 22 2021 11:30 utc | 121

My apologies if this has been posted earlier, Sputnik is reporting that Soleimani's death has been avenged:

Posted by: Menz | Sep 22 2021 11:35 utc | 122

Kishore Mahbubani's book, "Has China Won?: The Chinese Challenge to American Primacy"
Here's an interview where he summarizes the points in the book:
Posted by: Lietzu | Sep 21 2021 17:52 utc | 6

Thanks for that link Lietzu, it's an interesting interview.
And welcome to MoA, hope you will contribute often.

Posted by: BM | Sep 22 2021 12:02 utc | 123

@ phiw13

Of course, I am reading from this source myself:

This page is pretty good. Luckily, it's also translated in English. The name of the page can be translated to Political Reasoning.

As a viet myself, I have to say the Marxism-Leninism education in Vietnam is very bad, that's why the youngsters think Marxism is stupid (very bad!) and most of those who are interested stick to online debates and sources.

Posted by: Smith | Sep 22 2021 12:45 utc | 124

@ Menz

Great news, congrats for Iran!

Posted by: Smith | Sep 22 2021 12:57 utc | 125

Posted by: Smith | Sep 22 2021 12:45 utc | 124

Thank you, that looks a good start. Some reading for the long WE.

Posted by: phiw13 | Sep 22 2021 13:05 utc | 126

noLiberals_noBougies @ 5. and max @ 7 & 32 goldhoarder @ 36 james @ 44 Karlof1 @ 54 gulag @ 71 denk @ 88
Oriental Voice @ 96
The west's 'sound institutions' don't produce wealth, they are predicated upon wealth gained from raping continents, first by exploiting slaves then by exploiting oil..
<= Royal families and influential insiders in Dutch-land, Spain, France and England used national governments to Rape continents <=these imperialisms were private ventures, blamed in history, on the national governments. Royal families and powerful insiders would outfit privateers (ships) to engage in continent rape-ing activities. The government's navy and armies would escort, protect and facilitate these privateering continent rape-ing ventures. Often slaves were imported to do the work in far away colonies that returned profits to the private Oligarch investors. The use of public government for privateering activities allows private parties to cash-in on the fruits of colonial enslavement.

When profits from colonial activities slowed about 1860's, the game changed, imperialist (investment bankers, slavers, shipping interests, and oil men, etc.) moved from using slavery to " $gating-consumer access to private oligarch owned and controlled "vital resources". <=access to these resources was denied but after all resistance was eliminated the resources would be priced to extort national wealth into the hands of the privateer imperialist.

Private imperialism [using a host government to make a profit from a foreign place] became the business of Oligarch owned corporations, the British pound became the reserve capital of the world, and many colonies became vassal states of (or colonies of) the governments that supported and hosted the imperialist.

The imperialist divided the spoils of WWI, and bulcanized the nations into Vassal states, IOT keep the populations in chaos.. Whole peoples became slaves to the governments private party imperialist established in their land of the slaves. (the governed sheep were moved by treaty negotiated by the victors into cell block "X" X= 1 of 256 different cell blocks <=the nation state system)

WWII made technology and [oil and gas] energy <=global necessities. Those who owned the technology and the oil and gas could $gate them for profit. National governments protected private ownership of oil and gas and technology, by military and diplomatic means. Transportation shifted from carrying the spoils from the colonies to carrying the oil and gas to those who could pay. . By 1970s, access to technology for defense and manufacturing had become such a necessity it was even more valuable than gas and oil. So gas, oil and technology (GOT). The M. E. Oil fields were acquired and copy write monopoly and patent monopoly laws were scope extended, made numerous, and internationalized by treaties, the governmental powers that protected the game of imperialism became the rule of law.

No one could compete economically with the private Oligarch and the technology his private corporations owned<= these corporations were growing bigger than most governments that were supposed to be regulating them. The laws of copyright and patent monopolies (CPMs) were the new implements of imperialism. CPMs allowed the imperialist to develop or to acquire exclusive rights in the technologies as they came available. Hence imperialist were now capitalist, and they were in control of the production, distribution and supply of all of the needs of the governed classes. In the more backward nations the Imperialist only needed to deny access to oil. gas, food and potable water until the target state gave in.. Everyone was punished by the imperial corporate power. CPMs forced foreign nations to be the slaves of the imperialist but invasion was no longer necessary as CPMs are transparent to national boundaries.

As imperialist learned more about the nation state system, they realized the nation state governed its citizens as if the citizens were prisoners, and the politicians were like prison guards, they followed imperial orders, and could be depended on to report back (spy on) those who are the governed. The nation state improved private hidden imperial control over governed masses like no military ever could. Imperialist developed and owned the media and soon discovered the media could distribute propaganda that could control the masses with greater precision than rule of law. So the nation state became the vassal of the Imperialist, and the imperialist used that power to differentiate and indoctrinate everyone inside each of the nation states from birth to death.

The divide and conquer principle guided whole populations into chaos. Chaos reduces the power of the masses to resist any imperial desire to near zero. and that condition exploit because the power of the people of the nation state to resist was minimal. .. the private imperialist (oligarch and their corporations) discovered rule of law generated monopoly powers could be used to deny access to anyone at any place to anything the imperialist owned. States needed technology just to defend themselves, and the people needed the consumables that make life modern and the imperialist were in complete control. State after state surrendered to allow the Imperialist to use their monopolies to extract from the governed of that state the entirety of its public and private wealth.

The East rose to the challenge.. ownership of the CPMs and the experience of new technology development is flowing into the hands of those who were the prior victims of the western Imperialist. The victim nations are becoming the owners of the newer and better technologies. Aside: for a long time China did not need oil and gas as they were backward but China's growth, has forced them to find access around the gate controlled oil and gas scarcities imposed by the private oligarch hidden deep inside of the western nation states. . and energy itself has changed, wind and sun are transparent to oligarch controlled nation state authority. Hence a new access to energy has destabilized the i own the oil and gas condition.

SCO and other Eastern institutions are on par with NATO and other western institutions. Further the new game on the street <= control over the financial instruments that represent derivatives underlying producing economies is failing. China is driving <=on the ground productive economics, that seems to be more than hot thin wall street blows.

Little control over things the oligarchs of the West once had, remains? Even the various western prisons [nation state system] are mostly in domestic chaos. In other words, the Oligarch cannot use the armed strength of nation states and the private ownership of intangible assets to control the use of, or access to energy, commodities, patented or copyright technologies in some one else's nation any more. <=Exception: international treaties remain, which claim all knowledge which enables human thoughts to be made into working objects belongs, exclusively to imperial Oligarch and their leg breaker corporations.

Acknowledgement. The result produced by the nation state system is a direct result of those who control it. When oligarchs and their corporations control, the nation state is used for imperialistic purposes, when the governed are in control the nation states is used to better mankinds life on this earth. If the West fails to remove these internationalized monopoly powers, and to open all gates protecting information from use by those they govern, and if the west does not shut-down financial imperialistic manipulations, the west is likely to fail and likely to become a vassal of the emerging, more productive Eastern world. Why? Because there is a difference between owning and restricting the use of technology in order to profit from its use, and allowing movers and shakers to use it to efficiently produce goods and services.

War, starvation, nation state might, rule of law, energy starvation, and financial wizardry show an across the board pattern of weakening. Options once easily available to the private imperial oligarch are dwindling. The balance shows, control of resources by any means, is tipping to the East.

Most know it is the private oligarch who benefit from the copyright and patent laws, everyone understands it is the private oligarch <= not the nation state and nor the people governed by the nation state; the beneficiaries are the private Oligarch who manipulate the nation state system.. Everyone knows the banks and wall street conduct private for profit parties to which none but the Oligarch are invited. Everyone understands the privately owned MSM is the support which keeps the Oligarch hidden behind the nation state actors, and that keeps the conduct of public officials in check, and that keeps the governed in the blissful dark.

Everyone knows that private imperialistic owners of MSM control, by the content they distribute, the minds of nation state governed mankind. Everyone knows the MSM distribute propaganda designed to limit or terminate the options available to the leaders of the various nation states. In today's world everything you see or hear is engineered to control someone's mind. Whole nations are mislead by private imperialist Oligarchs who none can see.

The beliefs of those who are governed subjects of the nation state are different from facts, that constitute the real world, but the MSM informed governed do not know the difference because they are in an information controlled environment. The private imperialistic global Oligarch and their global corporations are not the same class of people as those who governed the nation state as politicians and those who govern are not the same class of people as those who are the governed. . No one in America agreed it was a good idea to shut down the industries in America and to move them to the East, but the global Oligarch would have the nation states do nothing but..

B thanks for this great article.

aLietzu @ 14 "China's only real crime against US business men is threatening to out perform them in the global system that was supposed to be rigged so they always win. " <= seemingly the truth..

canadian Cents @ 16 ""The future belongs to those who give their people the ability to breathe free, not those who seek to suffocate their people ..." <= agree. copyrights and patents dampen all productive activity and must be eliminated .. the world must learn to organize the people of the world so they can use new inventions and learn to work together to make life on earth better for everyone. Claims by anyone to intangible property rights should be off limits because ownership of products of thinking should belong to everyone.

Expression ( ideas produced into something useful) of the mind of one, belongs to all of the people living today, and all of the people in civilizations that follow. All humans have a immediate stake (public right) in that which is invented<=generics should be allowed immediately <= no private interest should be able to keep others from using the expressions of someone's mind? All knowledge is the public property of mankind. Nation states have no business making knowledge into private property.

Everyone should compete for profit or gain on the basis of efficiency, but no one should be denied the right o use the knowledge that enables competition. The should be the most efficient producer, not the richest owner of intangible property rights.

ak74 @ 17 "democratic values" vs "democracy" when nation states coin themselves Republics, only the rich and powerful are entitled to practice democracy, when populations claim themselves democracies the government responds to the people.

Karlof1 @ 19 "United States is the main instigators of disorder in the world"<== No no no no, often repeated mistake winners make, each time a peace is achieved or a crisis ending in surrender occurs.

In nearly every case, history shows, it is the same global private imperialistic Oligarch and the same global monopoly powered corporation, family or group of imperialistic Oligarchs that are the responsible parties, yet punishment is never directed at them? Its the Oligarch that have used the nation states to inflict global mayhem and to destroy the domestic cultures and lifestyles of those in imperial victim nation state that should bear the brunt of punishment by the winners. Leave the nation state system in place, but modify it to protect it from being used for imperialistic purposes.

These monopoly powered corporations and the oligarch that own the nation states today, are more powerful than the nation state they own. You punish either the nation state, including its prior or current leadership, or those it governs and you have achieved nothing. It is the private imperialist Oligarch and his or her privately controlled public global corporation that should be made to answer both for domestic (such as America, UK, France, etc) and foreign nation state destruction. . and .. for the mayhem such private person Oligarch and privately owned entities may have have imposed on the world.

The nation state cannot act, cannot think, does not breath, and is in fact nothing but a node constructed structure. Armies and political actors man the activities at every node in the structure.. The imperialist oligarch owns or controls these node Actors. Responsibility should reach to the oligarch, the CEOs and officers and directors of these stock financed entities including investment bankersters and advertisers who operate and support the the oligarch owned, imperialistic dirty deed propaganda distributing MSM. The guilty clearly are not the nation state leaders, clearly are not the governed masses, but instead the guilty are the private parties who lay deeply hidden behind the nation state.

for centuries global winners have punished the nation states and the people they govern for global abuses.
Such has not changed a thing. Never have the winners and losers together collectively punished the Oligarch and their global corporations <=why is that? And until the winners quit targeting for blame the government or the people governed by that government as responsible parties, and instead target the private Oligarch and his ill founded instruments of imperialism, nothing in the world will ever change. War after war will continue until the governed people, have the unrestricted power, to audit and punish the people who are in positions to govern.

Break the monopolies up and deny private ownership of, or restricted use of, expressions of the human mind to anyone for any reason. Establish some version of my 2nd government idea, so private party abuse of humanity cannot find ways to use governance as a means to disturb or capture the progress of mankind on our earth. Distribute the collective private wealth of the oligarch and his corporate entities, to repair the damage.. but do not punish the private persons, not the man in the street, nor the greedy corrupt politican <= the Oligarch engineered into positions of national power. Instead, punish the private fat cat oligarch, separate him from his wealth, terminate the charters of his privately owned tangibles and intangibles and patented and copyrighted empires. If the winners of the world are mature enough to do that (which Gulag @ 51 does not believe they are), the right of self determination will return to the people who are the governed and the cycles of repeating wars should end.

Robert Macaire @ 47 This [Russian-China] alliance is the only thing standing between us and world domination by Neoliberalism". <=that's a shame, where are the governed peoples of those two nation states?

augusto @ 59.. "CLEARLY the Protestant Reform and the French Revolution. " account for the individualism that keeps moving western civilization. <=but monopoly powers vested in a select few, is stopping individualism dead in its tracts. and individualism recognized as part of a team effort is promoting China to higher levels..
The government is a dependent of those who are the governors, the governors are the dependent of those who appointed the governors, and the governors are appointed by the oligarch, because the imperial oligarch are more powerful than the government.

Posted by: snake | Sep 22 2021 13:26 utc | 127

Caution: The shabby looking sites have been known to insert web bugs traceable to US counterintelligence schools. Never use them, never click on them. Post only direct links, or use if you must capture a snapshot for posterity. Users can add our own protective barriers as suits our own security posture. Be careful of users that post those links especially if they come on scene very suddenly with a pro-Western line.

Posted by: hunkerdown | Sep 22 2021 13:26 utc | 128

snake @Sep22 13:26 #127

Nice rant, but a few quibbles:

No one in America agreed it was a good idea to shut down the industries in America and to move them to the East, but the global Oligarch would have the nation states do nothing but..

Moving manufacturing to China wasn't just for labor arbitrage, it was also to compromise China and pull them into the Western orbit. The foreign policy objective was to isolate Russia and prevent exactly the situation that USA/West finds itself in today (facing a powerful alliance of Russia, China, and countries allied with them).

Where the policy failed is that the oligarchs resisted any change that might curtail their profits. So 'getting tough' on China was delayed by at least a decade - it only happened after it because clear that Russia was ready, willing, and able to defy US interests (in Syria, then Ukraine).

Its the Oligarch that have used the nation states to inflict global mayhem ...

The following phrases are more succinct and potent:

  • "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."

    ― Frédéric Bastiat

  • Capital governs the State or the State governs Capital.

Everyone should compete for profit or gain on the basis of efficiency, but no one should be denied the right o use the knowledge that enables competition. The should be the most efficient producer, not the richest owner of intangible property rights.

IMO this is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Intellectual property rights are not bad, they are just not properly implemented.

Even quasi-marxist-leninist China recognizes intellectual property rights (and for good reason).

We see the same sort of going-overboard with those who denounce capitalism. The problem we have is not capitalism it is neoliberal capitalism where oligarchs control the State.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 22 2021 14:03 utc | 129

I have nothing bad to say about what Mahbubani says, but most of the commenters here are failing their history tests.

The United States of America employed the same tactics which China is using today for the period starting in the mid-1850s (slavery/cotton/profit) up until 1900 or so.

There were plenty of European wars to get involved in prior to 1900, but it wasn't until the Spanish-American war where the US changed its tune from only oppressing its Natives and Monroe Doctrine backyard to pushing out worldwide.

As can be seen, it is highly ironic that the US decries Tibet/Xinjiang and Taiwan when the same thing was done by Americans to the Lakota, Iroquois, Navajo etc; to immigrant Chinese; to Irish and Italians in their first wave; was attempted against the Filipinos; and of course the American Civil War.

American economic policy in that era was also very similar to China: heavily mercantile with "disruption" of other nation's economies on the table via greater basic production efficiency and lower cost. The cheap Chinese junk of yesterday equivalent then was cotton - grown and picked by slaves, woven by New England women and children plus Midwest wheat using the McCormick reaper on land denuded of Buffalo and Natives.

The worry with China has always been: what happens when the sons of the founders have passed away? Will the mechanisms of the Chinese state remain pragmatic and focused?

Please don't insult my intelligence by comparing the CCP with the previous mandarin bureaucracies under the various dynasties in China.

First, the mandarins were only bureaucrats; every region and town had executive and judicial heads appointed by the regime in power. They didn't rule China, they carried out their ruler's rules.

Second, the stringency of the tests were meritocratic only vs. other wealthy and upper middle class white collar workers. A peasant had no chance; a regular middle class, the same. The American "meritocracy" of right now is not much different - the theory is that anyone can get the creds etc but the reality is that it isn't going to happen outside of the token minority representatives sucked in to serve as handlers for their own people.

Personally, I think China coming into primary as a world power sooner is better than later if only because the 1st generation and their immediate kids will still be around. China coming into primacy later means the grandkids are in control - the ones running over people in their Lamborghinis much like stereotypical Russian oligarch kids.

Posted by: c1ue | Sep 22 2021 14:12 utc | 130

@ Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 22 2021 14:03 utc | 129

Americans only started to complain about outsourcing manufacturing to China after the 2008 meltdown. Before that, they were all (Democrats and Republicans) boasting about the USA being a "middle class nation", a nation where "there were only 'smart jobs'", i.e. white collar, "high paid" jobs.

It was only after the fiasco of 2008 that the Americans realized a white collar nation was impossible, an utopia. In order to save face, they turned to blaming China instead of themselves.

Posted by: vk | Sep 22 2021 14:16 utc | 131

karlov1 @ 19, thank you for the link to the Patrushev interview. My computer was able to translate it for me, and one passage got my attention:

"...After the American fiasco in Afghanistan, conditions are being created for a new migration crisis, even more severe than in 2015. Then from the countries of the Middle East and North Africa, defeated by the Americans and Europeans, such a number of refugees poured through the Mediterranean Sea that no one can count it up to this day..."

I pair this with two reflections. One, that this kind of 'warfare' we first saw in the US when large numbers of Cubans descended upon the East Coast, many being prisoners released from jail. For the most part these were people Cuba did not want, and the effect on the US was meant to be a destabilizing one.

And second, the NZ cricket team had only just returned to Pakistan to play there, after the long hiatus initiated when security was eroded with other team members attacked. As the day for the match approached last week, the NZ team was hastily withdrawn, with apologies to Imran Kahn (who insisted the team would be safe.)

It did cross my mind that the US might be in such bad shape that it can no longer afford to keep as many nuclear submarines as it has in operation. Matters went south so swiftly in Afghanistan that such doesn't seem as farfetched as it might have done a week earlier, days earlier even, before that debacle.

Biden had an opportunity in his UN speech. Sounds like he missed it.

Posted by: juliania | Sep 22 2021 14:30 utc | 132

China is already number 1 in terms of economic practice. When it acts in concert with Russia and Iran and the entire allied team they are then a world power. That is not to say they are a threat but more a deterrent, an alternative to the power mongers of the West.

Xi's speech to the UNGA is a good read to consider. See Xinhuanet.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 22 2021 14:34 utc | 133

99.9 % of Evergrande’s bank loans were made by Wall Street and City of London banks
90% of its investors were from Wall Street and City of London
It’s the foreign banks who pulled the plug from under Evergrande demanding payment. Hoping to roil and unbalance the Chinese economy. Then they will blame the upcoming banking/economic crisis and great new depression in the US and western nations on China’s economic collapse therefore shifting blame from Wall Street and London banks.(who are the real culprits in the US/ EU/ Western nations economic crisis)
They are hoping that the government of China will bail out the foreign banks and investors to save face.
But China is not stupid like the Americans and the British.

Posted by: Gandalf | Sep 22 2021 14:38 utc | 134

c1ue @Sep22 14:12 #130

Thanks for that reality check.

A similar reality check is needed for those that push:

  • Punch 1: China's inevitable win over a decadent West
  • The Empire still has a lot of power and is not standing still.

  • Punch 2: No Cold War
  • USA would like people to believe that there's no Cold War and no intention of starting one. There's only China behaving badly.

  • The kicker: Focus on oligarchs / old families / banks & money control

    Oligarchs are going to do what oligarchs do (they are power sponges).

    The real problem is that the people don't demand democratic governance (and the accountability that that brings). Instead, they fall for divide and conquer tactics like hyper-partisanship and succumb to incessant propaganda that tells them who they are and what they want.

    Huffing and puffing about banks and old families is just a diversion.

    We saw this with Bernie. Bernie talked a good game about financial inequities but was NEVER going to deliver because he's fully an Empire stooge: he had nothing to say about military budgets that eat away at the nation's ability to compete economically, and he supported Empire initiatives like the overthrow of Maduro (Bernie was critical of Maduro as the Trump Administration sought to install Juan Guido).

What I have termed one-two punch and a kicker is how the Empire is keeping people subdued about an international situation that has grown increasingly more tense and dangerous.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 22 2021 14:41 utc | 135

vk @Sep22 14:16 #131:

Americans only started to complain about outsourcing manufacturing to China after the 2008 meltdown.

No, you are wrong. There were complaints about it from progressives and labor when the policy was implemented and those complaints were aired again every time it was announced that China was 'cheating'.

These complaints were dismissed by politicians and a compliant media such that few in the larger public cared until the bank government bailouts in 2008 and recession in early 2009 put American economic governance in the spotlight.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 22 2021 14:48 utc | 136

More on Evergrande came out today:

Evergrande chairman projects confidence amid debt crisis: Talk of wider economic contagion malicious, experts say

Like I said in my previous comment here, this fiasco is completely different from USA 2008. I'll recapitulate the main reasons why:

1) Evergrande is not a bank as was Lehman Brothers. Yes, it was involved in a huge Ponzi scheme and was knee deep into financial shenanigans, but at the end of the day it is not a bank. That makes all the difference in the world, because banks are neuralgic centers, while Evergrande is just a large company in the "real economy";

2) Evergrande's fiasco involves just the real estate sector of China, not China's entire economy. This is related to #1. Contrary to what the Western "experts" have been saying, China's property sector is not 28% of its "economy", but 28% of its lending. Debt is not wealth (as WaPo stated today in a ridiculous headline about the USA's debt ceiling);

3) Evergrande, because it is not a bank, had to engage a lot in the real economy. It has a lot of real stuff to liquidate, its rate of imaginary assets is small by modern standards. The apartments are there for people to live in - they were just not being used for living. It also has many other investments in other areas of the real economy;

4) Thanks to pressure from the "small people" who invested their savings on assets of the company in China, and thanks to the CPC's anti-speculation reforms, Evergrande had to warn everybody before it actually went bankrupt. This gave precious time for a controlled bubble bursting and ended the game for the main stakeholders of the company, therefore greatly diminishing the size of the hole to be covered. There's now hope for restructuring and the company may even survive. That was not the case of Lehman Brothers, who, out of the blue, filed for bankruptcy and opened the gates for a crisis that was already in terminal stage;

5) The size of the hole is relatively small by post-2008 standards: USD 300 billion, and, as mentioned at #1, there will be a limited cascade effect. Obama had to sign a USD 1.1 trillion bailout check on day 1 of his first mandate, unconditionally (no strings attached), just to stop the bleeding of the American economy and give the USG time to start to think about how it would contain the crisis (which the USA never was able to do).

So, the difference between Lehman Brothers and Evergrande is the difference between a bursting brain aneurysm and a ischemia in the left arm.

Posted by: vk | Sep 22 2021 14:59 utc | 137

@121 vk
"Why would the CPC lie about being Marxist-Leninist?"
Why do the British claim to live in a kingdom while already for centuries it is the prime minister who rules?

Posted by: m | Sep 22 2021 15:05 utc | 138

@ Posted by: m | Sep 22 2021 15:05 utc | 138

Because it is, indeed, a kingdom.

Thanks for proving my point.

Posted by: vk | Sep 22 2021 15:16 utc | 139

Will the USA and its obedient minions allow China to become number one without a physical fight, I doubt it.

Meanwhile shots fired on the president of Ukraine's car, top aide inside (president in the USA just now) are slowly but surely being blamed on Russia.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 22 2021 15:23 utc | 140

m @Sep22 15:05 #138

Which 'm' are you?


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 22 2021 15:30 utc | 141

Jackrabbit | Sep 22 2021 14:41 utc | 135

Yours are helpful observations...but need more clarity.

re: The real problem is that the people don't demand democratic governance (and the accountability that that brings)....

Who dares to define what "democratic" means, as in democratic governance?

Does it mean majority vote? Over 50% or, say, 66%? By whom?...the "people" or the "voters"? Meaningless unless that is made clear.

When did the USA become "democratic"? Before or after women were allowed to vote? [1920]. Were not women always "people"? When did "people" who were not landowners get the the right to vote? If persons, what about "colored" persons? There is no "democracy/democratic" in the US Constitution, because the word was too dangerous to define.

As for"voters", they are merely a selected [by whom?] subset of people. Anyone care to define the basis on which that selection is made?

There is enormous difference between "people" and "voters"

A "fairness" or "justice" type of government would be an improvement. Oligarchs need not apply.

Posted by: chu teh | Sep 22 2021 15:50 utc | 142

Dances with Bears by, the Russian based Australian, John Helmer is worth following.

"The first detailed technical and strategic assessment of the AUKUS scheme has followed this week in Vzglyad, the leading strategy publication reflecting the Russian General Staff and GRU assessments. A translation from the Russian article by Alexander Timokhin follows.
... In general, it is possible to make Australia a country with a nuclear submarine fleet quickly. Moreover, the authors of this initiative have an extremely serious reason for all this. Such gigantic investments and sharp political turns are not carried out just like that. The hegemony of the Anglo-Saxons in the world is seriously shaken, both because of their own internal weakness, and because of the growth of China, and the sabotage of their system of power by Russia. It is quite obvious they will not give up their power over humanity and the benefits resulting from this in a favourable fashion.

"It is worth recognizing that the world is on the verge of war. Australia’s agreement with the United States and Britain says exactly this. An ordinary world war with tens of millions of dead, as one option, or with hundreds of millions; after all, no one has canceled nuclear weapons. Such a war is almost inevitable.

"Moreover, knowing what deadlines the ‘partners’ set for themselves, you can roughly understand the time for which they are preparing the ‘hot phase’. And looking at how other countries are preparing for the next world war, it’s time for us to take a critical, honest and non-biased look at how we are preparing for it.”

Posted by: bevin | Sep 22 2021 16:17 utc | 143

chu teh @Sep22 15:50 #142

Princeton researchers determined that USA is a plutocracy. They looked at legislation that would benefit the wealthy/powerful interests vs legislation that would benefit the people and found that most of the time the wealthy interests prevailed and the people lost.

"Representatives" don't work for the people, hence: plutocracy.

But the people of USA accept their daily shafting with little complaint as they channel their energy and money into faux populistcandidates (Obama, Bernie, Trump, even Hillary claimed to be a progressive!) that lead them to believe that "Democracy Works!" as they betray them.

So what kind of democracy? I dunno. We have just about the worst sort right now (the "illusion of democracy") so just about anything would be better.

Some suggestions that have been voiced:

  • Ranked Choice (note: barfly Blues has a better way to do this) voting;
  • Direct Democracy (people vote on legislation);
  • Representatives selection by lot

    This is 'Athenian democracy', derided as "mob rule" by the oligarch mobsters.

I'm sure there are many other possible improvements.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 22 2021 16:19 utc | 144

Posted by: Stonebird | Sep 22 2021 9:29 utc | 118

Pooof, ...aaaand suddenly it's gone.

Awesome effect by merely shifting one's viewpoint! What a way to handle life's problems.

Posted by: chu teh | Sep 22 2021 16:20 utc | 145

hunkerdown @Sep22 13:26 #128

Thanks for the heads-up!

Stay safe, everyone.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 22 2021 16:24 utc | 146

@ snake (#127), thank you for your post. Well appreciated. Agree with you on those developments. We are in sync! Humanity is waking up to reality and will address its challenges. Let’s first focus on the “Situation Assessment.” We can then discuss solutions to build better nations and humanity.

There are “private imperialistic global Oligarch.”
What is a better way to refer to them? Imperialist CLANS, Imperialist Private Clans, Imperialist Families, Imperialist Private Oligarchy, Private Global Syndicate,... ? Will really appreciate ideas from barflies, so we have consistency in referring to them.

Similarly, what is a better way to refer to the global empire? Financial Empire, Global Private Empire, Global Financial Empire.... ?

Central Banks – Private Monetary System
One way to validate this group of Imperialist Private Clans (IPC) is by following the creation of central banks, private monetary system, and nations in our world, starting around 1609 or even before that. There are many who are exposing this network of clans. FSB-Russia refers to them as clans.

This interest-yielding private monetary system didn’t appear by itself. It didn’t become the dominant paradigm by itself. Who has been driving its global adoption? Why is this bad monetary system spreading in the world? Who is spreading? Why is the functioning of this bad monetary system not a subject of public debates? Also, it is not an election topic in any of the electoral campaigns?

"The true equation is ‘democracy’ = government by world financiers.”
– J.R.R. Tolkien

"Democracy" is a temporary phase of history which allows the IPC to take control from the earlier generation of dominant power players: the monarchies.

What fractal emerges when one analysis the formation of democracies? Text
Here is one:
– Create a revolution/civil war & steal a region (UK, U$A, France, India, ... )
– Create a Private Central Bank (BoE-1694, First Bank of the USA-1791, BoF-1800, RBI-1935)
– Fund & control new rich individuals (Kleptocrats)
– Fund & control political parties & media
– Nationalize the central bank (BoE-1946, Fed-1914, BoF-1946, RBI-1949)

What is the history of the Financial Empire up to now?
The Imperialist Private Clans have been pursuing global imperialism over centuries. These Clans do include royal families such as Windsor, Hapsburg, Black Nobilities...? With extensive planning and good execution from the FIRST central bank in 1609, the IPC’s private monetary system has been installed in various regions, nations captured and transformed to democracies, and a global empire constructed. The Financial Empire has moved from contraction and expansion cycles to become a global Financial Empire. It has moved in phases. It has a hierarchy in a nation and internationally.

China and Russia
The Financial Empire has moved in phases and its wars have never ended. What was it pursuing in 1990s?

The Empire tried to capture China and Russia in 1989. It failed to capture the former. It has sought to capture China, since then. It viewed China as an opponent in 1995, as stated in the 1995 Bilderberg meeting notes. The Empire has a strategic construct for its global vision and tried to mold nations accordingly, including China. The governed in the West are lost in their theatrics.

In 1990s, Russia’s economy, financial and monetary system were completely distorted. This situation was made worse by Yeltsin gang which was controlled by the Clans and Russia’s traitors. A private neoliberal socioeconomic system was installed and the Clans focused on launching war to capture Eastern European countries. Vladimir Putin and his confidants were a game changer in 1998. In 2001, Putin and his team decided to first reconfigure and reconstruct Russia’s internal sphere to achieve stability. In the first two terms Putin focused on this stability phase and after achieving them finally declared Russia’s independence at Munich in 2007. The Financial Empire immediately attacked Russia in 2008 (Georgia 08-08-08)) and started challenging it in the external sphere. After fooling Russia with a reset under Medvedev, the Empire pursued the ME by attacking Libya & Syria. Putin was back in 2012, and the Empire decided to capture Ukraine (2013), followed by Crimea sanctions (2014). Putin decided to challenge the Empire in Crimea and Syria (2015). The Empire has continued to attack Russia’s borders, Belarus (2020) and supply chain, (Nord Stream 2 - 2019).

💲Bloc vs Non-$ Bloc
One of the overarching themes from the geopolitical developments is that it is a conflict between 💲Bloc and Non-$ Bloc. The former includes US$, £, €, ¥, Western and its vassals currencies. The Non-$ Bloc comprises of nations that want to be sovereign and define their destiny such as China and Russia. These two blocs are involved in information, currency, trade, energy and proxy warfares.

The governed populace just elects, funds and serves the Phony Ponzi Puppets & Privateers Powerful preside over the populace through politicians, priests, press, prosecutors, police,...

Now, Puppets, Privateers, Populace are perturbed.

Posted by: Max | Sep 22 2021 17:48 utc | 147

snake @127--

"Private Imperialism" began in the mid 1400s as a partner of "Regal Imperialism" and "Church Imperialism." Bernard Bailyn's The New England merchants in the Seventeenth Century will open many eyes to the level of "public"/private partnerships operating then and how they forwarded Imperialism. But that's only part of the overall picture and story as it's far more brutal and complex.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 22 2021 17:56 utc | 148

Posted by: vk | Sep 22 2021 11:30 utc | 121:

This discussion with you has gone further than I intended. My original comment on your post at #55 was actually tongue in cheek, meaning to poke some fun. I guess you took offense. Let's retract from the start. Biswapriya Purkayast's post at #53 stated that the difference between China and (obliguely) the US is that, as number 1 nation among nations, China does not impose or force others to toe it's belief or way of governance. To that conjecture, you said in #55 that this is due to China's adherence to Marxist theory. I laughed on that, saying its a stretch too far. To support my point I cited ancient cultures that were also non-interferent, way before Marx was born. China being one of these culture, thus China could be non-interferent due to its own nature. Karl Marx likely has nothing to do with how China is conducting diplomacy.

Well, a bunch of you guys took offense and chimmed in, saying Mraxist theory this, Deng Xiaoping traitor that, and/or Muslims in Indonesia never invaded anyone but still turn the nation Islamic. It seems many barflies think in terms of absolute. Unless one behaves excatly as Marx/Engels said 150 years ago, one is not a Marxist, etc. etc. I have no interest in debating the absolute. Political theory is not my cub of tea. If you guys think I'm wrong in this and that, I'll just say thank you and smile it away. But I'm still faithful to my own notion that practical ideas and notions change as time and environment change. What Karl Marx said in his days were applicable to his environment. But if he lives today, who knows he may even follow what Deng Xiaoping had said and argue that as the true essence of communism. One central point of Marx's thought was the insistence on historical facts. Truth must be judged in terms of practical facts. To be called a Marxist is not based on whether one follows a set of formulated policies that was advocated 150 years ago. A Marxist is one who advocates benefits for the masses, whatever it takes. In one country, its the masses of that country. In the world, its the masses of the whole world. That's how I view Marxist politics. To be honest, in my view Mao Zhidong and Deng Xiaoping are much greater than Marx and Lennin ever was. That opinion is not because I am Chinese. It is based on what these historical figures had accomplished, and the nature of their personalities. That said, I don't think none of the people I cited were flawless. They are all as human as the rest of us.

Oh, I also think, as a Russian, Putin is greater than Lenin.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Sep 22 2021 18:02 utc | 149

Oriental Voice @149

So... what Isaac Newton said in his day about classical mechanics was applicable to his environment, but not now?

Well, it's true that general and special relativity have redefined some edge cases, and so has quantum mechanics (don't ask Gordog about that last one as he is a Flat Earther where QM is concerned). I would think one should expect some pushback if you claimed that this meant Newton was wrong, though. A similar process is at work where references to Marx is concerned.

With that said, I agree with you that Chinese culture has unique characteristics that predated their Revolution and that lead them to prioritize peaceful coexistence.

"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." -- Newton

Marx and Lenin were giants. The view from their shoulders is pretty good, and Mao was here before me.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 22 2021 18:37 utc | 150

Deng said so famously that no reference for that quote can be found, especially in English

Posted by: TDeL | Sep 22 2021 18:57 utc | 151

William Gruff @150--

Ah yes, Dialectics, which is how we get atop the shoulders of those who came before. I do miss the Philosophy Club at the college I taught at. Back in the mid 1990s it was easy to theorize what would occur over time to supplant GHW Bush's New World Order, and that has now largely come to pass although the new paradigm remains tenuous. Once it becomes substantial, it's replacement will also be possible to theorize. We won't be around, but by 2200 others will be considering what their future holds. Some think dialectics to be radical which isn't the case at all; in reality, it's quite conservative because it links to all of what came before, although one could be radical, try to think ten steps ahead only to fail. That was the failure of Francis Fukuyama along with many others.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 22 2021 19:05 utc | 152

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 22 2021 18:37 utc | 150:

So... what Isaac Newton said in his day about classical mechanics was applicable to his environment, but not now?

If Newton lives today, no telling if his momentum law wouldn't be stated in terms of a wave form instead of mass as per a particle. :-)

Don't second guess what I'm saying. What I said was to refute the tendency of taking any statements or a person's thoughts as absolutes. But then again, of course, I could well be wrong there too! I certainly think Newton could well have been wrong, even in his days.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Sep 22 2021 19:14 utc | 153

Oriental Voice @153

While I doubt that Newton would have any difficulty understanding quantum mechanics (he was a really smart guy), I also doubt he could stand on his own shoulders. Humanity's process of building comprehension of the natural world cannot happen instantaneously. Such discovery of natural laws normally requires some "soak time" between big advances where the ideas underlying one advance are discussed and diffused into the population before the next big advance can be revealed. Ultimately, going straight from developing classical mechanics to quantum mechanics is too big of a jump for one man, even someone as smart as Newton.

Now Mao was a really smart guy too, but he couldn't have developed all of the understanding that China's Revolution was built on from a cold start by himself. That goes beyond viewing Mao as a giant and moves him into deity territory. I advise against that sort of thing.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 22 2021 20:19 utc | 154

The Scottish Marxist computer scientist and economist Paul Cockshott has an insightful new YouTube video on AUKUS and the consequences for the U.S. and its allies if they were to try to go to war with China:

Posted by: VtLefist | Sep 22 2021 22:01 utc | 155

gottlieb @18. ""The future belongs to me!" isn't there a Nazi country song in there somewhere?"

To best of my knowledge Mustache Man never spoke from a prepared text or teleprompter.
Reductio ad Nazi-um is tiresome. Boring. Lacking in intellectual rigor.

Posted by: ChasMark | Sep 22 2021 23:30 utc | 156

@155 He's right IMO that war in the Pacific is very unlikely. For the reasons he states. Chinese cities are huge and difficult to destroy with non-nuclear weapons. If a war goes nuclear Taiwan, Guam, and Hawaii would become uninhabitable. An embargo on China would be an economic disaster for the whole world.

I don't see why Australia would need to produce nuclear fuel, assuming it ever gets nuclear subs. The amount of U-235 in a subs reactor is quite small (the exact amount is classified) and one reactor is good for 30 years before refueling. Australia might make a good place for decommissioning.

Posted by: dh | Sep 23 2021 0:52 utc | 157

@ TDeL

Really? I found that one to be one of his famous quotes:

Posted by: Smith | Sep 23 2021 3:40 utc | 158

karlof1 @ 148

Time tracking, as in clockworks, came into being in the 1400s: Benedictine monks. This actually set into motion the next wave toward what Lewis Mumford calls the Megamachine.

I have no way of knowing whether folks in the upper echelon of power understand that they're tied into this trajectory, but they're for sure enabling it.

Posted by: Seer | Sep 23 2021 4:16 utc | 159

The hysteria and thinly disguised rage from the West/America and its followers about the rise of China are, to be blunt, pathetically hilarious ... if they weren't so dangerous and could lead to World War Three and the end of the planet.

Oh noes!

The West won't be able to dominate and rule the world as it has done for the past 500 years or so!

In response, self-serving rationalizations are predictably spewed: Sure America/West may have done bad things, but China is Bad Too (Moral Equivalence/Bothsideism); China isn't so great, as I wouldn't want to live there (personal preference as a broader political statement); and of course, the dreaded Specter of Authoritarianism or Communism (booga booga).

Here's what all this handwringing and anger fits are really about: Western identity itself is based upon a fundamentalist belief that Western civilization is the apogee of human development itself.

Moreover, Western values are Universal Values. Hence, the West has a messianic right to proselytize and indeed impose them on the world.

There Is No Alternative. The West is Best.

But if there is a challenger to this Western world order, this causes an existential shock to the very (fragile) sense of Western identity, culture, and inbred sense of moral supremacy.

The only solution to this psychological meltdown?

Safe spaces for all these snowflakes!

Posted by: ak74 | Sep 23 2021 4:43 utc | 160

@90 oriental voice
Seems you never read a line written by Marx.

the economic model Marx suggested
simply does not exist as Marx never proposed one.

Posted by: aquadraht | Sep 23 2021 8:51 utc | 161

Several people comment that they prefer not to emigrate to China. That is good - China also prefer most people stay in their home country. Immigration policy of the West is not a charity - it usually siphons off the best: the richest, the smartest, the most well-connected ones from the developing countries. This actually deny other country of their own talents, which are badly needed. Also, moving to China involves cultural adaptation and language barrier, so China does not intend to take in a lot of foreigners.

What China could contribute is to help other countries to develop, in infrastructure, for example. It could also share experience in economic policy, governing, political reform, education, anti-poverty, technologies or others. And finally, of course, they don't force nor preach their ways.

P/S: Deng didn't say "To be rich is glorious" - that is a bad translation. He said it was fine to let "some people to get rich first". He spoke about the similar point in several occasions, like this one in Tianjin in 1986:


Rough translation: "To let some people and some regions get rich first, but the general principle is to get rich for everyone. Some areas will develop faster and drive most areas. This is a shortcut to accelerate development and achieve common prosperity."

Posted by: d dan | Sep 23 2021 16:49 utc | 162

d dan 162
That quote is ok, but I think the other one exists too. Smith took it out of context and distorted its meaning. It was "Poverty is not socialism. To be rich is glorious". It was clear that he meant the people and the nation, not just individual glory of a few rich.

See also:

So, to build socialism it is necessary to develop the productive forces. Poverty is not socialism. To uphold socialism, a socialism that is to be superior to capitalism, it is imperative first and foremost to eliminate poverty. True, we are building socialism, but that doesn’t mean that what we have achieved so far is up to the socialist standard. Not until the middle of the next century, when we have reached the level of the moderately developed countries, shall we be able to say that we have really built socialism and to declare convincingly that it is superior to capitalism. We are advancing towards that goal.

That is the Deng Xiaoping Smith is denouncing as traitor. What a rubbish.

Posted by: aquadraht | Sep 23 2021 18:20 utc | 163

"What Happens When China Becomes Number One?"
More of this:

Posted by: Antonym | Sep 24 2021 4:22 utc | 164

Spamming links to fascist propaganda crap is no argument. China is not "targeting India", it is rather the other way round, as has elaborated here several times. China made reasonable advances to settle the border disputes since 1952, India is blocking, clinging to the British conquest in southeastern Tibet, has annexed Sikkim, occupied Nepaleze territories, is considered the regional bully.

Posted by: aquadraht | Sep 24 2021 10:04 utc | 165

CBC Alerts Reporting:

"Meng Wanzhou to appear in BC Supreme Court at 2pm (5ET). Comes after US Justice Department agrees to drop extradition request as part of a deferred prosecution agreement approved today by a New York judge. That agreement means Meng may be freed from [Canadian] house arrest today."

Posted by: John Gilberts | Sep 24 2021 20:01 utc | 166

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