Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 3, 2021
The U.S. Foreign Policy ‘Establishment’ Is Incredibly Dumb

The U.S. foreign policy 'establishment' is incredibly dumb:

With Afghan Retreat, Biden Bucks Foreign Policy Elite, New York Times, Sep. 1 2021

“The foreign policy establishment did get it wrong in Iraq, where the U.S. overreached,” said Richard N. Haass, the president of the Council on Foreign Relations. “We got it wrong in Libya, we got it wrong in Vietnam. But over the last 75 years, the foreign policy establishment has gotten most things right.”

What did the foreign policy 'establishment' get right?  Funny that he does not name even one issue in that category.  That's likely because there isn't one.

“My biggest concern is that the United States may now be entering an era of under-reach,” said Mr. Haass, who served in the George W. Bush administration. “History suggests there’s just as much risk in under-reaching as overreaching.”

Under-reaching = Not waging and losing illegal wars of aggression? What please is the risk with that?

Here is the real problem:

Micah Zenko @MicahZenko – 0:38 UTC · Sep 3, 2021

Foreign policy establishment generally doesn't do self-reflection. Leadership and funders don't require it, the focus is inherently future-oriented, and the predictive analysis so unfalsifiable that evaluation is impossible.

This goes beyond the establishment:

Why States Believe Foolish Ideas: Non-Self-Evaluation By States And Societies – MIT, Jan 10 2002

Organization theorists note that organizations are poor self-evaluators; I argue here that states suffer the same syndrome.

This failure to self-evaluate impedes national learning and allows misperceptions to flourish. Myths, false propaganda, and anachronistic beliefs persist in the absence of strong evaluative institutions to test ideas against logic and evidence, weeding out those that fail. As a result national learning is slow and forgetting is quick. The external environment is perceived only dimly, through a fog of myths and misperceptions.

States that misperceive their environment in this way are bound to fail to adapt to it, even when the penalties of such failure are high. Blind to the incentives they face they will respond inappropriately, even if they accept in principle the need to adapt.

This also why the U.S. is, again and again, listens to the same ever stupid people.

Micah Zenko @MicahZenko – 15:44 UTC · Aug 21, 2021

Sad how many habitually wrong and unapologetic pundits, scholars, and former officials are solicited for their foreign policy wisdom.

Not only is their zero accountability, but stubborn wrong-ness is consistently rewarded by media gatekeepers, think tanks, private sector, etc.

Every implausible US intervention or disastrous war has featured powerful cheerleading from public intellectuals and experts….often the same 3-4 dozen people.

Last point, since US has such an outsized influence on global outcomes, debates around specific FP choices cannot continue to be driven by the same habitually wrong voices. World needs better.

Comments

the risk; the defense contractors won’t be making as much money–and that mean potential income loss and job insecurity for paid mouthpieces like this clown.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Sep 4 2021 1:16 utc | 101

@ DF 96
re Semper Fi: That is pure drivel
It may be “pure drivel” to you but it’s what motivates many men in the combat arms, especially Marines. You opinion doesn’t matter to those in the military.
What we try to do here is to try to understand how people not like us think and act, and you don’t qualify for that. Goodbye.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2021 1:31 utc | 102

They’re dumb because they can afford to. Somewhere in his book about bureaucracy, David Graeber wrote that being able to wield overwhelming force dispenses you with having to try understanding your opponent.

Posted by: Robert Macaire | Sep 4 2021 1:34 utc | 103

to Vince at #2
“…Wall Street and the Pentagon, the true rulers of the Republic, will stop at nothing in their futile attempt to prop up the US dollar empire, even if it means roasting half the world in a nuclear holocaust. US people need to build a massive anti-war, anti-capitalist movement to put a rein on these self-centered bandits!….”
bingo, dude! just mentioning those two Ruling Centers of world US power, the Pentagon and Wall Street and their wicked intentions, sums it up nicely
and your prescription for building a more powerful anti-war, anti-capitalist movement is correct. I don’t see any other way out

Posted by: michaelj72 | Sep 4 2021 1:36 utc | 104

to Laguerre at #34
“…And although the original comics are older, the films started in 1978 (Superman 1978) and were a reaction to the loss of confidence over Vietnam….”
we can only hope and pray for a similar “loss of confidence” after Afghanistan; that would perhaps give some poor nations in the world a (temporary) break from the Imperial over-drive of the post-soviet union exceptionalist USA and its endless interventions, CIA secret ops and coup d’etats….
…..but I am doubtful
the Democrats supporting $24 Billion MORE for the Pentagon does not give me much confidence that there’s been a ‘loss of confidence’ – rather quite the contrary. Once a war-monger always a war-monger, that’s one thing you can count on both in normalist US ‘politics’ and among the war-mongering Capitalist Elites who currently rule the world

Posted by: michaelj72 | Sep 4 2021 1:55 utc | 105

Biden has already said that “terrorists” in Syria are the biggest threat and ordered more American troops to Syria and Jordan. Few Americans know about “The American Invasion of Syria.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4CbsSR2VvA

Posted by: Carlton Meyer | Sep 4 2021 2:38 utc | 106

David F #96

There is no shortage of willing dupes and sociopaths/psychopaths in the world, hence the state of affairs in the world.

Well Vietnam appears unwilling to be a dupe for the USA. Vietnam is on the right track it seems.

Compare US Vice President Kamala Harris’ trip to Vietnam and the token aid and promises of ensnaring conflict offered by Washington to recent news regarding Vietnam-China relations.
Xinhua reported the first China-Europe freight train connection between Hanoi, Vietnam-Zhengzhou, China-Liege, Belgium.
Vietnam’s inclusion into China’s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) through the “New Silk Road” has been long in the making with several rail routes explored to connect Vietnam more readily with China and then to extend Vietnam’s reach into international markets through China’s China-Europe railway. With the first Vietnamese goods now reaching Belgium, the tangible economic benefits of good ties with China are demonstrated rather than pontificated.
Viet Nam News in its article, “Vietnam Railways launches freight train service to Belgium,” would report:
Vietnam Railways (VNR) on July 20 added a new rail freight link from Việt Nam to Belgium, with the first train departing from Yên Viên station, Hà Nội, and expected to arrive at Liege City in Belgium.
It would also note:
VNR said the train carried 23 containers with such goods as textile, leather and footwear. During its journey, the train will stop at Zhenzhou City of China’s Henan Province and connect to the Asia-Europe train to reach its destination.

Kamala Harris just spent a few days there treading in as much dogshit as she could find and all to no avail.
The morons in the USA Foreign Policy establishment can squeal and connive all they like with their 1970’s South China Sea annoyances but they have been stymied, gazumped and left in the ditch. I guess that when it comes to the edge of significant confrontation regarding Taiwan the CPC will hover on the brink for as long as it is necessary for the USAi military flotilla to rust in place. Every month of polite standoff will be another few million diverted to the USA garbage bucket they call a military.
From what I have seen in the last six months I would wager that the CPC will have no qualms for the Taiwan obsession by those Taiwanese and their trusty ‘friend’ USAi dragging on until it is bled white in the face. And even then the CPC would patiently wait until there is a complete capitulation. What have they got to lose? If this drags on for another five years China will have absolute dominance in chip making and almost every other manufacturing capacity they need.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 4 2021 3:10 utc | 108

Didn’t Haas make a sorta-kinda apology for people like him getting Iraq wrong?
https://www.cfr.org/interview/haass-balance-iraq-wars-impact-us-foreign-policy-clearly-negative
The guy’s been feeding at the trough way too long; he’s licking the gravy from the plate. Not a good look.

Posted by: ChasMark | Sep 4 2021 3:11 utc | 109

The US establishment is arrogant to the point of becoming blind to its errors. Never self reflection, it is not a US male trait! Move ahead and blame the others.

Posted by: Virgile | Sep 4 2021 3:13 utc | 110

Ours is not to question why, ours is but to do and die. Semper fidelis.
It is a pity young mend and boys are preyed on by governments and military. Young minds easy to manipulate like a potter forming clay. No different to those brainwashed into the ‘american backed’ Wahhabi cults. ‘Respectable’ headchoppers.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 4 2021 3:15 utc | 111

best quotes on a short scan of the comments – “he’s licking the gravy from the plate. Not a good look.” “‘Respectable’ headchoppers.” the beginnings of some good lyrics for a song, but i am not a lyricist…. the rest of you, myself included, are just too serious too much of the time!.. no offense meant…

Posted by: james | Sep 4 2021 5:24 utc | 112

Posted by: Carlton Meyer | Sep 4 2021 2:38 utc | 106
Thank you for posting your revealing Syria documentary here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4CbsSR2VvA
I enjoy your professional and balanced video documentaries on your site, good work.

Posted by: Paul | Sep 4 2021 7:18 utc | 113

Posted by: Roger | Sep 4 2021 0:34 utc | 98

Iraq and Syria are now tightly aligned with Iran, Iraq is now a good friend of China, and Syria with Russia; after both being previous allies of the US, how is that a success?

Syria is a rump state.
One third of the country is semi officially occupied and completely out of bounds – an area rich in desperately needed resources such as arable land, gas, oil, water and people. A large area around the border tripoint with Iraq and Jordan is also completely out of bounds. These area harbour militants and training bases. To put this in perspective, the entire nation can see these training camps only an arm’s reach away and yet is completely helpless to act against them.
Another huge chunk is occupied by internationally recognized terrorist groups and affiliates. The fronts are active and require resources to keep in check.
Now once you measure what you are left with, bear in mind that not a single point of this supposedly sovereign area is out of reach from Western aggression. Attacks are weekly affairs. They can hit anywhere and at all times. Military or civilian targets, airports, research centres, desert outposts, urban warehouses, absolutely every target is fair. Ports and oil terminals have suffered from sabotage and attacks. Even bases of the Russian ally are targeted by proxy forces.
On the economic front, the nation is getting crushed. Third parties and would-be economic partners have been bullied and shamed into ceasing all business with Syria.
And before anyone alleges that regime change should somehow be the sole measure of success for the West, let me point out the one true miracle:
The narrative has been so successfully framed and the brand name “Assad” is so heavily loaded that the citizenry of the belligerent nations is actively or tacitly onboard the whole operation. Even those aforementioned internationally recognized terrorists are perceived favourably. This means the empire can, and will, continue holding Syria’s head underwater for as long as there is an Assad in Damascus and as long as it controls Iraq.

Posted by: robin | Sep 4 2021 7:40 utc | 114

Will that go down the drain?
https://www.rt.com/usa/533935-afghan-withdrawal-gopro-video/

Posted by: Mina | Sep 4 2021 8:31 utc | 115

@ Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 3 2021 23:10 utc | 91
The US troops are stationed on the German lands (and in Japan also) not to protect against the ‘imperialistic Russia of Putin (in case of the former) but to keep an eye on the Germans (same goes for Japan even without the excuse of the threat from Russia (in the past), or China (today)).
You’re quite right, Horsewhisperer, the presence of the occupying troops in Germany has been resented for a long time, it’s one of the reasons Germany’s been so reluctant to commit to NATO, it’s unlikely their dream will come true though, the Americans have to ensure Germany and Russia stay apart in particular today what with Germany controlling the EU (they ca they have the money).

Posted by: Baron | Sep 4 2021 9:04 utc | 116

Posted by: Baron | Sep 4 2021 9:04 utc | 116
That’s just my pet theory. Your guess is as good as mine regarding WHEN Germany’s patience with the United Dinosaurs of AmeriKKKa will expire. But if you’re in the mood for a few belly-laughs, look up the edition of DW Conflict Zone in which Sarah Kelly tries to bully Niels Annen into admitting that NS2 is a dead duck. I wondered where Niels gets his quiet confidence from, but having acquainted myself with the basic outline of his boss, Heiko Maas (my kind off asshole), I’m not surprised that that Niels is nobody’s pushover. But it’s just a matter of time before the Yankees get the Heave-Ho from Germany.
I’m finding the China-Taiwan nothing-burger even more amusing than the Occupied Germany fiasco. I’ve decided that PRC doesn’t really care what the Yankified Taiwanese ‘leaders’ tell themselves about their ‘independence’. Last time I checked there were no restrictions on Chinese and Taiwanese citizens visiting each other’s country and indulging in 2-way trade. However, pretending that they DO care about Taiwan’s uppity noises gives PRC an opportunity to help the United Dinosaurs to fall even more deeply in love with their own childish fantasies. The bigger risk for the dumbass Yankees is that Japan and Korea will be watching the foregoing attentively. And taking notes on the contradictions.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 4 2021 11:00 utc | 117

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 4 2021 11:00 utc | 117

Last time I checked there were no restrictions on Chinese and Taiwanese citizens visiting each other’s country and indulging in 2-way trade.

I wouldn’t be so sure… Have a look at this (e.g):
Taiwan to heavily fine ‘critical industries’ workers seeking employment in China

The bigger risk for the dumbass Yankees is that Japan and Korea will be watching the foregoing attentively. And taking notes on the contradictions.

That yeah. Here in Japan, and despite the appearances and the talking points from the top, there appears to be more chit-chat than before for a more “independent” approach – less in lockstep with the exceptional empire. That of course could go many ways… On the flip side, the exceptional empire might be moving away from a less confrontational approach (the unfolding of the visit by John Kerry on Sept 1 is one visible point here).

Posted by: phiw13 | Sep 4 2021 12:05 utc | 118

Mina @115
Yes, it looks pathetic and it is difficult not to pity the Afghanis that are trying to get their free ticket to Miami, but we should also consider what it really is that they are afraid of: Karma. These people were collaborators with a foreign occupation force, and as long as they had the might of that foreign military backing them they took full advantage of it. They could strut through their neighborhoods and act with impunity. These people were ones riding the graft and corruption gravy train and despising the deplorables in their own country who couldn’t find a spot on that gravy train. They would gleefully step on their less fortunate compatriots because that was the kind of hierarchical capitalist society America was actively building there.
But the gravy train came to an end and the big dog whose protection allowed these chihuahuas to snarl at their neighbors lost interest in them. It is not retribution from the Taliban they are fearing, but ostracism from their entire society and the economic hardship that will come with it.
I cannot really feel sorry for them.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 4 2021 12:07 utc | 119

Where is the actual real news coverage of the Valley of Doom in Afghanistan to be found?
The MSM is doing its doody in building up these head choppers and CIA owned and run hoodlums into the doomed Light Brigade!
I expect once they are fully surrounded and told that help is not going to come and their last stand really is pointless and dumb, just like these other dumb historic Yankee crap histories – of great last stands.
———-
For these who are just discovering the cfr – it is part of the same old global power conspiracy that is shrouded by fake CT’s. Do read up on its English cousin Chatham House. They are more than joined at the hip and have common ancestory – aye even unto the Middle Ages!
Walking back step by step will take you into the C19th – Cecil Rhodes., Duke of Wellington; and why Napoleon became a threat when he realised the Financiers Great Game. Further back to the East India Companies of C18th. Keep going and C17th ‘National’ Banks which were privately owned ; C16th and earlier will reveal the great trading houses of the Silk Road ; the likes of the Red Shield chamber n that strung along it and where their grand plan of ‘Nation States’ came into being with the treaty of Westphalia to renew the control of the Holly Roman Empire and the forever aristo arch with their Infallible Entitlement to the Earth and all its peoples and resources.
One day every child will be taught that history – by the end of this century is my calculation.

Posted by: DG | Sep 4 2021 12:08 utc | 120

@ phiw13
That is good to know. The japanese have always been known to be two-faced. I don’t think they will sink with the USA sick horse.

Posted by: Smith | Sep 4 2021 12:14 utc | 121

Gruff, you are going vk-ed?
Is an Afghan who learned a language while in exile 20 years ago and went back to his country to do any kind of work (including an airline office at the airport, or teaching a language at school or university) considered by you as a “collaborator”?
Are you really exempting the soldiers on these images of their responsibilities?
In your black and white world, anyone who opposed the Nazis in Germany from 1933 to 1945 was a collaborator who deserved to be killed?

Posted by: Mina | Sep 4 2021 12:25 utc | 122

Mina @122
Not all school teachers and office clerks in Afghanistan are at the airport thinking they will get a free ride to Miami. The group you see at the airport is self-selected. They are there to escape karma.
Yes, the soldiers are exempted from responsibility. They are just doing what soldiers always do. You cannot have a war and legitimately blame the negative consequences of that war on the soldiers. “It would have been a nice, clean, humanitarian war if only the soldiers behaved better!” is moronic crap from shitbag liberals who are so delusional that they think good and decent wars are things that can exist in the real world, and so they support those wars of choice again and again.
“We’re killing them for the womenz!”
“Won’t someone think of the children?!?!”
“It’s for their own good!”
“We have to destroy the village to save the village.”
And of course: “But it’s different this time!”

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 4 2021 13:01 utc | 123

Cartoon(SFW)
Breaking up Texas seems like a good idea to me. Or maybe give it back to Mexico as reparations. Or finish what we started with Reconstruction 150 years ago and put all these wannabe slavers in the slammer where they cannot do more damage.
California shound be on the table too.
We need states too small to gerrymander, that will fix it!

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 4 2021 13:03 utc | 124

US foreign policy since 1913 ( when you know who got to create the Federal Reserve Bank Of the United States);
1. Bangladesh…. In 1971 … Kissinger overrode all advice in order to support the Pakistani generals in both their civilian massacre policy in East Bengal and their armed attack on India from West Pakistan…. This led to a moral and political catastrophe the effects of which are still sorely felt. Kissinger’s undisclosed reason for the ‘tilt’ was the supposed but never materialised ‘brokerage’ offered by the dictator Yahya Khan in the course of secret diplomacy between Nixon and China…. Of the new state of Bangladesh, Kissinger remarked coldly that it was ‘a basket case’ before turning his unsolicited expertise elsewhere.
2. Chile…. Kissinger had direct personal knowledge of the CIA’s plan to kidnap and murder General René Schneider, the head of the Chilean Armed Forces … who refused to countenance military intervention in politics. In his hatred for the Allende Government, Kissinger even outdid Richard Helms … who warned him that a coup in such a stable democracy would be hard to procure. The murder of Schneider nonetheless went ahead, at Kissinger’s urging and with American financing, just between Allende’s election and his confirmation…. This was one of the relatively few times that Mr Kissinger (his success in getting people to call him ‘Doctor’ is greater than that of most PhDs) involved himself in the assassination of a single named individual rather than the slaughter of anonymous thousands. His jocular remark on this occasion—‘I don’t see why we have to let a country go Marxist just because its people are irresponsible’—suggests he may have been having the best of times….
3. Cyprus…. Kissinger approved of the preparations by Greek Cypriot fascists for the murder of President Makarios, and sanctioned the coup which tried to extend the rule of the Athens junta (a favoured client of his) to the island. When despite great waste of life this coup failed in its objective, which was also Kissinger’s, of enforced partition, Kissinger promiscuously switched sides to support an even bloodier intervention by Turkey. Thomas Boyatt … went to Kissinger in advance of the anti-Makarios putsch and warned him that it could lead to a civil war. ‘Spare me the civics lecture,’ replied Kissinger, who as you can readily see had an aphorism for all occasions.
4. Kurdistan. Having endorsed the covert policy of supporting a Kurdish revolt in northern Iraq between 1974 and 1975, with ‘deniable’ assistance also provided by Israel and the Shah of Iran, Kissinger made it plain to his subordinates that the Kurds were not to be allowed to win, but were to be employed for their nuisance value alone. They were not to be told that this was the case, but soon found out when the Shah and Saddam Hussein composed their differences, and American aid to Kurdistan was cut off. Hardened CIA hands went to Kissinger … for an aid programme for the many thousands of Kurdish refugees who were thus abruptly created…. The apercu of the day was: ‘foreign policy should not he confused with missionary work.’ Saddam Hussein heartily concurred.
5. East Timor. The day after Kissinger left Djakarta in 1975, the Armed Forces of Indonesia employed American weapons to invade and subjugate the independent former Portuguese colony of East Timor. Isaacson gives a figure of 100,000 deaths resulting from the occupation, or one-seventh of the population, and there are good judges who put this estimate on the low side. Kissinger was furious when news of his own collusion was leaked, because as well as breaking international law the Indonesians were also violating an agreement with the United States…. Monroe Leigh … pointed out this awkward latter fact. Kissinger snapped: ‘The Israelis when they go into Lebanon—when was the last time we protested that?’ A good question, even if it did not and does not lie especially well in his mouth.
It goes on and on and on until one cannot eat enough to vomit enough.

Posted by: USPatriot | Sep 4 2021 13:29 utc | 125

As in Afghanistan too?
“ Kissinger made it plain to his subordinates that the Kurds were not to be allowed to win, but were to be employed for their nuisance value alone. They were not to be told that this was the case, but soon found out when the Shah and Saddam Hussein composed their differences, and American aid to Kurdistan was cut off. Hardened CIA hands went to Kissinger … for an aid programme for the many thousands of Kurdish refugees who were thus abruptly created….
The apercu of the day was: ‘foreign policy should not he confused with missionary work.’”

Posted by: USPatriot | Sep 4 2021 13:34 utc | 126

re: Afghan “collaborators”
Actually they are traitors. They betrayed their country to aid an invading and occupying country. The military interpreters were much more than interpreters, they were facilitators who aided the US military on local matters, helping them become successful in overcoming local resistance. . .Benedict Arnolds

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2021 13:42 utc | 127

US aggression comes with a high price for those who assisted.
. . .from the news:

“[T]he majority of Afghan interpreters and others who had applied for visas to flee the country were left behind,” the Wall Street Journal reported Wednesday, paraphrasing a State Department official’s remarks.
That includes “the majority” of special immigrant visa applicants, Politico reported Wednesday as well.
Brutality watch: Taliban fighters are reportedly carrying out reprisal killings across at least four provinces—Kandahar, Nangarhar, Badghis, and Farah, according to the BBC, which noted it “was not able to independently confirm the killings, and the Taliban have repeatedly denied committing any revenge killings.”. .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2021 13:58 utc | 128

@ Posted by: Mina | Sep 4 2021 12:25 utc | 122
As Julius Caesar once said: love the treason, hate the traitor.

Posted by: vk | Sep 4 2021 14:05 utc | 129

This is interesting. Go back fifty years to Vietnam, where the conscripted army refused to fight thus causing a pullout from Vietnam and the creation of a volunteer army. How has that turned out? . . .one opinion. . .
Failure in Afghanistan Has Roots in the All-Volunteer Military
For the past three decades, careerism among senior officers coupled with the disconnect between the American public and the All-Volunteer Force have led to failed and unnecessary overseas military interventions.

The tragedy that unfolded over the past several weeks in Afghanistan began with the creation of the “all-volunteer” military in 1973 and the self-promoting careerism that has stalked the Pentagon ever since. Too few leaders have been willing to speak truth to power and say no to overseas military adventurism that had little bearing on the safety and security of this nation. And it goes without saying that those in charge when the war begins are never those who have to finish it. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2021 14:06 utc | 130

…but the Talibans who stay/stayed in Qatar and Pakistan are no traitors.

Posted by: Mina | Sep 4 2021 14:25 utc | 131

(I am not saying that these people should have been told to come to the airport in the first place. We have heard about ‘their expected tragic fate’ for more than six months, and given the number of deals between the US, Qatar and the Talibans, it would have been easy to find them jobs elsewhere before mid August. But that was never the intention of the West.)

Posted by: Mina | Sep 4 2021 14:31 utc | 132

I don’t quite agree with the term ‘dumb’, although it is indeed accurate to say that the policies are reaching a dead end as far as what they can accomplish. They are dumb to us on the outside of the bubble in which for so long these foolish people have been able to do very well for themselves, living off the good policies of the past which did help many nations recover from the hardships of WW2.
This was the case for New Zealand, a country which has done well since that war ended, as a friend to the United States. A country which both accepts and accommodates refugees as well as the very very rich. And a country which is seeing the gap between rich and poor grow wider.
A couple of days ago, there was an attack by a young refugee in a supermarket in Auckland. It’s not supposed to happen there, or here in the US. That is the truth bubble that wealth provides – not real wealth but the kind that insulates a small community doing well, self satisfied even, from the poverty which surrounds it. And that rich insulation is the source of the unreality, the stupidity of colonialism — India being the prime example of it when the British with oh the best of intentions finally were forced to leave.
Can the elites be forced to leave their own country? Many rich elites have headed down to my native land. Along with refugees. It’s a toxic mixture. Add covid, and add climate change. Hard to know what advice to give, so I simply pray that the bubble will burst. Peacefully.

Posted by: juliania | Sep 4 2021 14:43 utc | 133

The tragedy that unfolded over the past several weeks in Afghanistan began with the creation of the “all-volunteer” military in 1973 and the self-promoting careerism that has stalked the Pentagon ever since. Too few leaders have been willing to speak truth to power and say no to overseas military adventurism that had little bearing on the safety and security of this nation. And it goes without saying that those in charge when the war begins are never those who have to finish it. . .here
Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2021 14:06 utc | 130
Thank you for that. That is indeed the problem. Rather than LEARN the lessons of their Vietnam failure, they choose to go with a mercenary army. And that is what we have. A banana republic. Moved heaven and earth, committed crimes without number, to get it too.

Posted by: Brmildred | Sep 4 2021 14:54 utc | 134

“What we try to do here is to try to understand how people not like us think and act, …”
Don Bacon @ 102
Actually that exchange was quite enlightening. It appears you are not reaching some on the level of them understanding it as opposed to agreeing with it.
David F isn’t wrong so much as judgemental. To extend thatz even legality isn’t really a defense.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Sep 4 2021 16:00 utc | 135

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2021 14:06 utc | 130
“Thank you for that. That is indeed the problem. Rather than LEARN the lessons of their Vietnam failure, they choose to go with a mercenary army. And that is what we have. A banana republic. Moved heaven and earth, committed crimes without number, to get it too.”
Posted by: Brmildred | Sep 4 2021 14:54 utc | 134
I would add it’s the US version of the welfare state as their ideology is strongly opposed to helping other Americans for any reason.
This isn’t a characteristic of the elite but the people.
I find polls, including even Pew Research, to be highly reliable after allowing for question bias.
The people keep speaking and it ain’t pretty.
I hope it’s apparent that ultimately the US is going to genocide Canada and Mexico.
Cuz dirty fake socialist. We have it coming.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Sep 4 2021 16:10 utc | 136

I hope it’s apparent that ultimately the US is going to genocide Canada and Mexico.
Cuz dirty fake socialist. We have it coming.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Sep 4 2021 16:10 utc | 136
Canada maybe, I think the Mexicans will be able to take us by the time we get around to it. Canada is already subdued. Of course as things fall apart here all kinds of new things can happen.
What “Biden” is doing is interesting, the only evidence I can see that anybody in the government understands that things are going to change and some adjustments might be necessary.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 4 2021 16:24 utc | 137

@Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2021 13:42 utc | 127
Thankyou for stating a basic fact, I am so sick and tired about the liberal bullshitters wining on about their fate. This is war, and they picked the wrong side. Up to the Taliban what they will do with them.
@Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2021 13:58 utc | 128
So the BBC is just making shit up, or just acting as a stenographer to the propaganda arms of the state, that what “can’t verify independently” means.

Posted by: Roger | Sep 4 2021 16:39 utc | 138

@Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 4 2021 16:24 utc | 137
Canada has already gone full servile little doggy, our election choice is between the ex drama teacher (and his Ukraine nazi loving side-kick) who wants to sidle up even closer to the US in the way an abused child tries to love even more the abusive parent, and an ex insurance salesman who already thinks that he is American and wants to be the 51st state. The US elites will be welcomed with the open arms reserved for the true rulers of the nation, no need for genocide.

Posted by: Roger | Sep 4 2021 16:44 utc | 139

South Front says we are helping Lebanon under the table:
SYRIA APPROVES US PLAN TO PROVIDE GAS, ELECTRICITY FOR LEBANON
The Egyptian gas and Jordanian electricity will be supplied to Lebanon under a US-sponsored aid plan. Washington will be ignoring its own sanctions on Syria, which will reportedly get a share from the gas or passage fees.
In August, Lebanon was hit by an unprecedented fuel crisis with the Central Bank incapable of financing any more fuel shipments.
The plan was announced by US ambassador in Beirut Dorothy C. Shea on August 19 in response to a plan by Hezbollah to import Iranian fuel. Several Iranian tankers are already sailing towards Lebanon. The fuel will likely pass through Syria’s port first in order to avoid sanctions.
Syria, which was badly effected by the economic crisis in Lebanon, is now set to benefit from international efforts to relieve the crisis. All attempts by the US and its allies to isolate Damascus have failed.

Likely because Iran/Hezbollah are shipping fuel to Lebanon now.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 4 2021 16:45 utc | 140

DGH 135
David F isn’t wrong so much as judgemental
Yes. They (Marines in this case) aren’t like us so they’re stupid and wrong. Brings to my mind the US-China situation where Americans expect Chinese to be like us and the fact that they aren’t like us, causes a judgemental dislike for Chinese. . .and a need to fight them! . . .It’s racism, and/or an extension of racism, a major factor in US history.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2021 17:33 utc | 141

Don –
Are you seriously trying to argue that someone who kills people for money has some moral ground to stand on?
Are far as my feeling they’re wrong. Don’t you feel the exact same way about me?
And as you said every single one of these people volunteered to do this.
I’m being judgemental! The vast majority of humanity agrees with me.

Posted by: David F | Sep 4 2021 18:51 utc | 142

@ DF 142
re: someone who kills people for money
First you state a false claim about others and then say they’re wrong.
It’s in all the media, reporting on the judgements of top people in the US government, people elected via the democratic US political system, that these huge financial and human expenditures are necessary to protect our freedom and to prevent foreign attacks on the homeland.
You need to understand what’s really going on, so don’t go anywhere, stay here and learn.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2021 19:06 utc | 143

@140 Bemildred
Did you read Taxi’s latest, about Dorothy, the US Ambassador to Lebanon? Very interesting. She is the typical hateful woman that the State Department seems full of. And Hezbollah has countered her every wicked move:
Dorothy Versus Hassan

The US ambassador to Lebanon, Dorothy Shea, thinks she’s smarter than Hassan Nasrallah.
Yet, evidence shows that since Trump appointed her as ambassador to Lebanon back in February 2020, every dastardly trap she has placed before Mr. Nasrallah and his Hezbollah resistance group has failed.

I haven’t read the SouthFront report yet but it seems an amazing capitulation by the US, a recognition that squeezing Lebanon is failing to reduce Hezbollah, and is only making it stronger.
My guess is that someone in the Pentagon has said that, no, the US cannot interdict those fuel tankers from Iran, because the resulting war is not something the Pentagon wants (or is actually even able to parry). And someone at State then figured out this aid move with electricity – perhaps a glimmer of reflection on dumb foreign policy?
Perhaps. Or perhaps it’s just a move to help some insiders in Lebanon who want electricity.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 4 2021 20:16 utc | 144

I shall continue to admire Smedley Butler for his actions. His pronouncements have enabled many of us to see how long-standing is the corruption of US foreign policy by the needs of corporations.
He was a good soldier, one assumes from his military decorations, for so long as he thought that was the way to be. Then he thought differently, and most unusually had the courage to speak out about it.
A lifetime is long enough to become a completely different person. It’s important to understand this about life, if one wishes to characterize people.
There are many ways to be an adult. Usually the more difficult path is the internal one rather than the external one, the moral quandaries rather than the struggles with the adverse. It’s the internal one that really takes courage.
I mean, if someone wants to judge a person from not knowing him.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 4 2021 20:25 utc | 145

Don- LOL LOL LOL
Grieved@145
I mean, if someone wants to judge a person from not knowing him.
I didn’t realize you knew him personally, or are you just being hypocritical?
I mean you did just judge him as a good soldier and an admirable man.
I am flabbergasted to find multiple regulars here defending the state and/or the people who fight for them.
Enough, this is pointless.

Posted by: David F | Sep 4 2021 21:07 utc | 146

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 4 2021 20:16 utc | 144
Yes, I read Taxi, came to mind immediately when I read of this move to supply power from Egypt & Jordan, Better them than Iran. The danger now is that we will lose what little leverage we have left in Lebanon. Nasrallah makes a clever move, we make a “clever” move back. Interesting we are now willing to help Iran/Syria to maintain some control in Lebanon. Smacks of face-saving, but we will see. Nice if it gets Lebanon straigntened out some.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 4 2021 21:57 utc | 147

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 4 2021 20:16 utc | 144
PS, I think your comment about why we cannot stop the vessels is correct. I’m not sure the Izzies will feel the same way about it, but they might be at that point now. Twenty-one out of twenty-four missiles shot down last night.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 4 2021 22:03 utc | 148

The concept of duty to family and country is alien to some people. It quite literally has no meaning to them. This understanding is particularly missing in the US where honor motivated behavior has been in the process of being replaced with victimhood based social status norms. Victims can have no duty except to themselves, so a more abstract understanding of duty to a community is meaningless to them.
Soldiers cannot negotiate about their orders. It isn’t just that doing so is against the rules but rather the army that operates that way is quickly defeated. The military must depend upon the competence of those in the political realm to only direct them to do what militaries exist for when it is absolutely necessary. There is no room in the process of prosecuting war and defeating a threat for moral pontification or lengthy debates over what purpose it serves. The soldiers must trust that the politicians have already done that part. The battlefield isn’t the place for second guessing the politicians.
The US Marines do not “fight for money”. They fight because it is their duty. They fight for the honor earned by doing their duty.
What does the Syrian Arab Army fight for? Just money? They could have hiked to Sweden and gotten more money in welfare than what they are being paid. What do the Islamic Revolutionary Guards fight for? Or the Russian troops in Syria? These people are not getting rich, and they are not fighting because they like to kill or because they want to be killed. They are fighting for duty and the honor of serving their community well.
Soldiers are not the bad guys. The civilians who send them to kill for selfish, greedy, or just poorly considered reasons are the bad guys here. The politicians and the people who voted for those politicians are the real monsters and vicious beasts.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 4 2021 22:15 utc | 149

“The US Marines do not “fight for money”. They fight because it is their duty. They fight for the honor earned by doing their duty.
Soldiers are not the bad guys. The civilians who send them to kill for selfish, greedy, or just poorly considered reasons are the bad guys here.”

Ehh,really? I would bet the civklians do not have any idea what us going on, the war is sold to them with whayever alib, they have enough paying the bills..to then never see any ounce of that golden things they reap wherever they go…
https://twitter.com/LeylaRostami/status/1410259489794707457/photo/1

Posted by: Asha K. | Sep 4 2021 22:28 utc | 150

WG – Are you fucking kidding me?
What honor and duty do you speak of?
Has someone invaded my country? If so, then we could speak of honor and duty.
Making a career out of killing people in foreign lands has about as much to do with honor and duty as ketchup.
Has everyone here lost their fucking minds?
You discredit yourself with such Palumbo.

Posted by: David F | Sep 4 2021 22:56 utc | 151

@robin | Sep 3 2021 21:09 utc | 70
In all fairness, perhaps you could provide a description of what you consider to be sound policy for imperial policy makers.
I’m not b, but I have some ideas.
I will mention one: the US could stop lying. “Remember the Maine, to hell with Spain”, “the Afghans were involved in 9/11”, “Saddam had WMDs”, “Covid-19 began in China” — these (and much, much more) have lead the US to disastrous blunders. Returning the US to reality — everywhere, internally, externally — would do much to fix the country’s ills. Unfortunately, I see no forces strong enough to feed the red pill to Americans.
I mean, seriously, if we were to randomly open the Great Book of American Foreign Actions, what are the odds of reading about vast projects to better the lives of common folks?
According to Thomas Jefferson, “Honesty is the first chapter in the book of wisdom”.

Posted by: Cyril | Sep 4 2021 23:05 utc | 152

@David F | Sep 3 2021 21:10 utc | 71
Will people ever get over citing this man as some kind of hero?
He actively, knowingly partook in this activity for 30 year, and when he got near the end of his term, he got fucked over in some way, and hence his response was to expose it all.
He is not a fucking hero, he is a psychopath with a sour grape syndrome.
This does not mean what he said isn’t factual, but it also doesn’t mean that he had any morals whatsoever, and at best is a whistleblower, who only blew the whistle because he didn’t get his cut.

I don’t think you are fair to Smedley Butler.
If he was as amoral as you claim and only was concerned about his cut, why did he expose the Business Plot in 1933, a proposed military coup against the President, Franklin Delano Roosevelt? Some very wealthy people were involved; Butler probably stood to make a bundle if he kept his mouth shut and went along with the coup. Hell, the coupsters proposed to make him dictator! But no, he was honorable enough to refuse, and courageous enough to speak up loudly.
Because the coupsters were powerful and controlled much of the media, Butler was roundly ridiculed, but a highly decorated Major General was difficult to shut up. And later, a House committee confirmed many of Butler’s claims.
Smedley should have gotten a few more medals for his courage and his principle. He doesn’t deserve to be smeared.

Posted by: Cyril | Sep 4 2021 23:56 utc | 153

Quite a good op-ed here that I ran onto earlier. Not the typical propaganda piece found in MSM. Worth a read.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/op-ed-did-the-american-troops-who-were-killed-in-afghanistan-die-in-vain/ar-AAO4Joi?ocid=BingNewsSearch
“A week before I deployed to Iraq in 2003, I said to my wife and daughter, “I’ll be protecting you guys, preserving our freedoms, killing terrorists before they can come here.”
But I never protected anything within 5,000 miles of American shores. And despite what President George W. Bush claimed, the insurgents trying to kill me did not hate America for its freedoms. They just wanted us out of their country. Few, if any of them had plans to come to the United States to kill people.”
……………..
Many who join five-eyes militarizes do numerous tours of duty back to the killing fields. Others though, that do actually join up to ‘defend’ their country realize their mistake. Once that realization occurs, they are again normal people, but untill that occurs there should be no differentiation made between them and their assorted jihadis. They all just need shooting (the russian term I like – neutralizing) on sight.
Some people survive their mistakes, others don’t. The worst part though are the politicians who prey on 18 year olds, teenagers and young men who’s minds are still malleable, who are only just starting to learn the hard lessons of life.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 5 2021 0:05 utc | 154

“I would bet the civklians do not have any idea what us going on”
So stupidity is an excuse for criminality now? That is only true in victim culture, not honor culture.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 5 2021 0:41 utc | 155

David F @151
See, you cannot understand it.
The decision to kill people elsewhere in the world was not made by the soldiers, or even the generals commanding them. That decision was made by you.
You’re the kind of moron that wants only tools that cannot be misused. Dull scissors with rounded points and machinery that shuts itself off if you are stupid enough to put the action end up against your own head. You cannot take responsibility for your own actions (because you are a victim of one sort or another, obviously). You are the kind of person who is why silica gel packets have warnings on them to not eat them. You want to be able to order the military to do horrible things, but then if you happen to be wrong you want it to be the military’s fault for doing what they were told. You are an emotional and cognitive infant, like so many others in “victim culture”.
I’d beg you to grow up, but you cannot even imagine what that means.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 5 2021 0:54 utc | 156

Peter AU1 @154
Young people putting their lives on the line for what they are told is terribly important for their
loved ones and their community is a good thing. It is noble and honorable. The problem does not lie with them. The problem is with the entire culture of lies and delusion that is perpetuated to get them to go out and kill for the empire.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 5 2021 1:03 utc | 157

I don’t think this has come up in the thread, but Smedley Butler was offered a lot of money to lead a coup in the US in 1933 that involved murdering FDR. He blew the whistle on that plot.
It seems to be a true event, and here’s one of many articles that tell that tale:
Wall Street’s Failed 1934 Coup
It’s been referenced here several times. I haven’t studied it more than enough to know that US finance was ready as far back as then to turn the US into one of its banana republics.
Ah, money – eternally amoral, ever creative, thinking up that same idea over and over again.
Anyway, that’s what I admire Butler for.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 5 2021 1:26 utc | 158

@153 Cyril
Sorry, I didn’t see your post until after I posted mine. You were there first with the proposed coup of 1934. It’s odd that it never came up in the whole thread until now – I had to do a search to confirm it was Butler in the story I’d heard. That shows how close to the memory hole the story was pushed – it should be an iconic piece of US history, legendary.
Yes, indeed, Butler passed the supreme test: he didn’t take the money and he not only didn’t take part in the plot, he affirmatively acted to destroy it. They offered him $3 million as a start, with more to come after they took power.
None of the wealthy plotters was ever subpoenaed or reported in the media, but Butler was smeared, as well as could be done to such a famous man.
It is a highly familiar story to us nowadays, and it happened back then – but the nation was lucky to have a man of integrity to fight for it.
I doubt if, nowadays, the nation would be that lucky again.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 5 2021 1:41 utc | 159

@ William Gruff
What I want to know is how the marine recruiters managed to convince a bunch of kids/teenagers that fighting and dying thousands of kilometers from their shore in a foreign country is actually protecting their “loved ones and their community”. Now that’s next level brainwashing shit, or there must be some carrot I’m missing.

Posted by: Smith | Sep 5 2021 3:29 utc | 160

The American Empire and its ruling class are not dumb. Ascribing “dumbness” to American behavior is just a self-serving alibi to excuse American (war) crimes.
The US ruling class are straight-up psychopaths.
America has a political system that incentivizes psychopaths.
There was even an academic study that literally found that (shock!) Washington DC is the psychopath capital of the United States.
Washington, D.C.: the Psychopath Capital of America
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/06/23/washington-dc-the-psychopath-capital-of-america-218892/
This pathology of the US ruling class inevitably infects American politics, military, spy agencies, business, media, and society in general–including the US foreign policy establishment.
Washington DC is PsychoTown, USA.

Posted by: ak74 | Sep 5 2021 3:42 utc | 161

@Grieved | Sep 5 2021 1:41 utc | 159
Sorry, I didn’t see your post until after I posted mine. You were there first with the proposed coup of 1934.
No problem, the Business Plot had potentially earthshaking implications and needs to be discussed as much as possible.
It’s odd that it never came up in the whole thread until now – I had to do a search to confirm it was Butler in the story I’d heard. That shows how close to the memory hole the story was pushed – it should be an iconic piece of US history, legendary.
Absolutely.
Yes, indeed, Butler passed the supreme test: he didn’t take the money and he not only didn’t take part in the plot, he affirmatively acted to destroy it. They offered him $3 million as a start, with more to come after they took power.
I didn’t know about the $3 million (which was an enormous fortune back then). Yes, Butler passed a great test. I wonder how many of us would have taken the bribe — and yielded to the temptations of becoming dictator. To refuse all that, Butler must have been a very honorable man.
How quaint the phrase “honorable man” sounds now, and how rarely we hear it these days in the US. A sign of how thoroughly corrupt the country has become.
None of the wealthy plotters was ever subpoenaed or reported in the media
Because they owned the media!
but Butler was smeared, as well as could be done to such a famous man
David F’s attack on Butler is probably an echo of those smears.

Posted by: Cyril | Sep 5 2021 3:44 utc | 162

VK @ 10
This is one of the things that always confuse me: from what and where came the American myth that the USA and Vietnam became some kind of geopolitical BFFs after the Vietnam War? Because that’s obviously not true.
…..
Then, came the USA advance towards SE Asia to try to isolate China economically. The campaign may have worked with the USA’s traditional neocolonies like Malaysia and Singapore, but Vietnam was one of the few nations that firmly rejected the American proposals in their entirety. Vietnam is, by far, the richest (if you exclude microscopic city-state Singapore) and largest nation-state of SE Asia, so a policy for SE Asia that doesn’t involve Vietnam isn’t worth the ink used to write it.

Maracatu didn’t say, or even imply imo, that the US and Vietnam have become geopolitical BFFs, but, that the US “showered Vietnam with capital” after the war. My memory is that the US economically punished Vietnam for 25 years after the war (like it appears to be now doing to Afghanistan). However it since reversed this policy and now treats VN as another as another globalist experiment, by indeed “showering it with capital” to build factories run with cheap labour in US ruling class interests, and of course against US working class interests. That’s not necessarily doing VN a favour, but doing a deal. VN has sensibly reciprocated by cooperating to the extent to which it is in its interests, which is to build its own manufacturing base and infrastructure, much like China has done with even greater success.
Nor is Vietnam BFFs with China. VN has thousands of years of conflict with China, with each invading and occupying the other at various times. The enmity still runs deep, despite the support China gave VN during the American War. I know this because my VN sister-in-law frequently lambasts China and the persecuted Hoa ethinc Chinese minority within VN. This amuses me as she is so woke in all other respects. As late as 1979 China invaded northern VN and even nearly took Hanoi with great loss of life on both sides, with sporadic fighting continuing until the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1990. A big driver of the conflict was an intra-Communist Soviet-China-Vietnam-Kampuchea tensions that ended with the fall of the Soviet Union. That’s when the US reversed its earlier punitive to the more recent exploitative approach. I have faith that VN will continue to legitimately pursue its interests which will include aligning with China in one instance e.g. economically, and aligning with the US in a different instance e.g. the SCS and economically.
Your ranking of the economic strengths of Vietnam, Malaysia and Singapore is head-scratching. The relative size of their economies using any metric- either absolute GDP or per capita GDP- is exactly opposite to the one you seem to claim. Rather than being a microstate, Singapore has the largest GDP and per capita income of all three (unless you meant in geographic size?) VN has the least GDP and income per capita of all three. Since this is 180 degrees opposite to your claim, I am wondering if I’m missing something? (I enjoy your posts elsewhere btw.) However, I agree that VN is not to be messed with, and that it has to be included in any SE Asian policy.

Posted by: Atomician | Sep 5 2021 5:33 utc | 163

William Gruff 157
People make mistakes when they are young. Some survive, some do not. As I put in that post (with regards the US military), once they come to realize that mistake which is to kill people that have never attacked them or their country, to the country it is there country doing the attacking they become decent people.
While they are in the military, fully believing in what they are doing and killing people, they need to be treated the same as those that do many tours of duty and often simply like killing people. The ultimate hunting experience type thing.
I remember early after Russia entered the Syrian war, a young government soldier was interviewed I think on a youtube video. He said they didn’t even try to differentiate between Daesh and Syrian militia so called rebels. They simply killed the lot rarely taking prisoners. Many or most of those militias have now reconciled with the Syrian government and were given complete amnesty unless they had deliberately killed prisoners or civilians.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 5 2021 5:49 utc | 164

Posted by: Cyril | Sep 4 2021 23:05 utc | 152

I will mention one: the US could stop lying. … — would do much to fix the country’s ills.

I was asking for what should be expected from policy makers advising the elite they work for, not what you or I would prefer to see. That was my entire point. The elite doesn’t share the same interests as the rest of the world. Expecting them to act in a way contrary to their interests is naive. Sorry for not making that clear.

Posted by: robin | Sep 5 2021 6:50 utc | 165

As long as Viet Nam is still led by the CPV, it would be OK.
After the scandal of Nguyen Tan Dung, it shows the CPV can really clean off itself. I believe we would stay neutral in this US vs China conflict and try to get as much as investments as possible from both sides.

Posted by: Smith | Sep 5 2021 6:53 utc | 166

robin “I was asking for what should be expected from policy makers advising the elite they work for, not what you or I would prefer to see.”
Just a thought on that which is an interesting question. First those advisors would need to read and understand the rise and fall of empires, the rise and fall of civilizations and then apply that knowledge to current conditions that are correctly seen. The problem is, US as a whole is totally unaware of its current position.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 5 2021 7:11 utc | 167

Posted by: Smith | Sep 5 2021 3:29 utc | 160
My father, who was Scots, and lived in Canada at the time, joined up and fought in WWI in France, for the British, as it was at the time. I am pretty sure he did it mainly so he could be with his buddies, who mainly did it to be with him. Hit by a shell. Almost lost his left leg, limped all his life, and no teeth. I can remember easily when I was that dumb. Hollywood sells huge loads of fantasy, and I will bet it does that everywhere else too. It sells. I see Russian war porn on the web all the time.
I am still amazed at the way an entire generation of W. Europeans and their dependants all ran into the abbatoir there, and the stupidity of their elites to do that. At the time the effect was to give us (USA) “hegemony” on a plate, and both Wilson and Roosevelt were eager to help.
The Chinese are right to discipline the “entertainment” industry, I wish them luck with it.
I appreciate your contributions here, a useful and interesting perspective.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 5 2021 7:52 utc | 168

@ Bemildred
There’s no problem with manly fantasy, but there is a big, big problem of emasculation of male and “minority politics” (i.e. clearly favoring the social minorities in media despite the majority of population).
The US seems to spread that now using their hegemony, and it’s bad for everyone. This spreads a lot of brainwashed people who really believe in the liberal democracy meme.

Posted by: Smith | Sep 5 2021 8:15 utc | 169

Bemildred 168
My grandfather volunteered for WWI. I have some of his diaries though some are missing. On the enlistment forms, he had signed up to keep the kings peace. Quite enthusiastic at the start, he was in the trenches of France at the main killing fields from 1916 till the end of the war. Many photos. Trophies and a medal. On his way back he wrote in his diary “never again will we leave these sunny shores to fight in foreign wars. He never spoke about the war nor attended reunions or Anzac parades. He ensured my father did not go off to WWII. I didn’t know anything about this until just a few years ago. Although we knew he had been in France we assumed he had just been there for the last few weeks. My father at ninety did not know anything about his time in France.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 5 2021 8:21 utc | 170

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 5 2021 8:21 utc | 170
I hear you. My father never wanted to talk about it either. The only thing he would talk about was his buddies. The war, he had nothing to say. He was 50 years my senior, and I regret now we never really got to talk. Lived to 92. I had a lot of uncles in WWII, they had nothing to say either. I knew a lot of vets from Vietnam, they also had nothing to say. Did an amazing amount of drinking. Some of them had some interesting pictures which disabused me of any remaining illusions I might have had about war and what was going on in Vietnam. I had a brother who did PR in Saigon, he had a lot to say, still does, Trump fan. He is the last of five brothers I started out with today.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 5 2021 8:39 utc | 171

Posted by: Smith | Sep 5 2021 8:15 utc | 169
I don’t object to manly fantasy, I’m vanilla male and not interested in gender “discussion”. Not interested in bashing gays either. Nothing to say there.
My point is crap sells, and you don’t want all your media to be debased crap, you especially don’t want young people being indoctrinated with debased crap, because they will believe it, so you have to have some regulation to keep the crap under control. Facebook and the like will shovel crap all day long if you let them. Annoying site.
And war movies in particular are crap, most of them.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 5 2021 9:07 utc | 172

@ Bemildred
Sure, indeed, that’s why I’m 100% for market control regarding contents related to american stuff. The idea of most sale = quality doesn’t sit well with me.
Too bad Vietnam doesn’t ban Facebook and Twitter. Yet.
I heard CPV got into issues with Facebook recently especially with the fake news, but FB smartly comply so they got spared, again.

Posted by: Smith | Sep 5 2021 9:21 utc | 173

Some of you have referred to Hollywood and its role in conditioning the US population. The rot goes all the way down the US soft power cultural chain. I had the misfortune to see an episode of Anthony Bourdain: Parts Unknown this morning. He was in Vietnam, allegedly his favourite country, with which he was intimately familiar etc. At one point the war came up, whereupon Bourdain proceeded to blame the North Vietnamese for atrocities while he interviewed the descendants of people that the NVA clearly had viewed as collaborators. It was pretty unbelievable, actually.
BTW, all that Food! Passion! Zest for life! bullshit … the guy was actually a boring presenter as well as a historically ill-informed one.

Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Sep 5 2021 9:36 utc | 174

Smith #160

What I want to know is how the marine recruiters managed to convince a bunch of kids/teenagers that fighting and dying thousands of kilometers from their shore in a foreign country is actually protecting their “loved ones and their community”. Now that’s next level brainwashing shit, or there must be some carrot I’m missing.

Thank you for that particular question. From an Australian perspective the masses were fed incessant propaganda. The Dulles brothers in hand with the Australian media were terrifying the people with fantastical tales and incessant propaganda wrapped in nationalistic fervour. It helped that Oz had a culture of Gallipoli worship – an event in the first world war where Ozies were sacrificed en mass by the british scum generals etc.
Two central streams of propaganda were flowing – one was the fear of communists and communism that had been drummed out by the pathetic and unquestioning Ozie mediea and the other stream was fear of the yellow peril or red menace creeping down from China through Asia and into Indonesia then hopping over the narrow seas to invae Oz. The Dulles brothers had been singing that tune for a decade and more and the Ozzie media was humming along.
So fear of commies at home and abroad. Yellow commies at that. That is how vulgar it was and how trite and yet the soldiers were conscripted largely without resistance and off they went to the cadaver churn of Vietnam. These were times of high employment and many opportunities and the army recruiters used that skill based development to make conscription seem more palatable.
Myself, I resisted at every stage and gave many years to the peace movement. But that experience enlightened me to the evil that people do while simultaneously feeling good and patriotic about it. Had more people stood up and marched with us much earlier, perhaps we might have attenuated the madness. I was frequently subjected to violence from military personnel and civilians for daring to speak out loud and clear but never stopped. But I was one in one hundred or a thousand in those days. Many of us were arrested or persecuted for refusing the war but the propaganda machine never reported that as they were singing the killers chorus.
Later I traveled to Vietnam to tender my apology to those fine people and to show them the beauty of the people who had lived on this land for tens of thousands of years without war. Hopefully sometime the citizens will own the media and the barons and dames of war and lies will clean the prisons that hold them.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 5 2021 10:30 utc | 175

Smith #166

As long as Viet Nam is still led by the CPV, it would be OK.
After the scandal of Nguyen Tan Dung, it shows the CPV can really clean off itself. I believe we would stay neutral in this US vs China conflict and try to get as much as investments as possible from both sides.

Agreed but note the case of Prince Norodom Sihanouk of Cambodia in the 60’s and 70’s. The evil empire destroyed him for his neutrality all the more to slaughter Vietnam, annoy and threaten China, hold its coercive foreign policy together.
I see there being little doubt that Vietnam will remain close to China and ‘manage’ the US relationship as best as possible. China needs to be very mindful not to provoke Vietnam over disputed borders in the South China Sea though. That same sea is a likely false flag trigger zone that the USA has used before and will do again – see Gulf of Tonkin incident.
If you have links to Vietnam news that is dispassionate/reliable I would be interested to see. I can use a machine translator if necessary.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 5 2021 10:43 utc | 176

Smith @160: “What I want to know is how the marine recruiters managed to convince a bunch of kids/teenagers that fighting and dying thousands of kilometers from their shore in a foreign country is actually protecting their “loved ones and their community”. Now that’s next level brainwashing shit, or there must be some carrot I’m missing.”
If the brainwashing were just something happening between the kids and the recruiters then it wouldn’t be an issue, but that’s not where the problem is. The recruiter isn’t the one who convinces the kids that communists or Muslims are inscrutable threats lurking in the shadows that American cannot coexist with. It is the mass media, mostly entertainment, that does that. The recruiter just leverages the pre-planted brainwashing that literally everyone raised in the West is fed from birth. In fact, the recruiter doesn’t have to do anything because all residents of the West are pre-brainwashed by the mass media, by their schools, by their religious leaders, by their parents and neighbors and entire communities. All the recruiter has to do is sit in his office and the kids come to him. The recruiter’s job is more to turn away the kids who are too fat, too stupid, and too weak to be able to handle military life. Trufax: Most Americans are too weak of body and mind to be viable candidates for the military, even as some here try to assert that soldiers are stupid.
I will repeat: Every country needs and should have a strong force of organized and disciplined young people willing to put their lives on the line for their society. Such a force is a good thing for the society and for the members of that force. At the same time the society must have the maturity, intelligence, and wisdom to not misuse that force. Sadly, that maturity, intelligence, and wisdom is lacking in all western countries today. That the societies the military forces serve are led by infantile narcissistic imbeciles doesn’t make the military forces themselves evil.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 5 2021 10:48 utc | 177

ak74 #161

Washington DC is PsychoTown, USA.

Exactly that.
Thank you for the link.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 5 2021 10:51 utc | 178

uncle tungsten
I was a bit young to be press ganged at that time, but an uncle working with my father and staying with us was. I remember watching the lottery on the black and white TV to see if his numbers came up. Another uncle was press ganged, and although he hasn’t anything bad to say about the Vietnamese, he hates the yanks to this day. Another uncle was career military. A captain in tin cans. He also hates the yanks but still refers to Vietnamese as gooks. My father in law was in airforce ground defense in WWII. He never had any hatred for the Japanese. He disliked the Americans, the best part of his war was shooting down US aircraft. They got a few before the yanks kicked them out and went it alone island hopping across the pacific. He had a medal he never talked about. Looking it up the reason is still classified. I suspect it is something to do with that that gave him a very low opinion of the yanks.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 5 2021 10:52 utc | 179

William Gruff #177

I will repeat: Every country needs and should have a strong force of organized and disciplined young people willing to put their lives on the line for their society. Such a force is a good thing for the society and for the members of that force. At the same time the society must have the maturity, intelligence, and wisdom to not misuse that force. Sadly, that maturity, intelligence, and wisdom is lacking in all western countries today. That the societies the military forces serve are led by infantile narcissistic imbeciles doesn’t make the military forces themselves evil.

Thank you and I agree with you on the need for the young to be a force for good and transformation. But they can only do that when they have a profound grip on communications. They have to maintain their own intellectual clarity and they have to bring the older ones away from the cool aid store into the fresh air. Both of those obligations or activities can be depleting and diverting from their best chance to set sail on life’s other pressing biological journey.
On the point you make about the link between the psychopathology of societies leaders and the military, the USA appears to be entirely addicted to militarism (as war making) as opposed to defense forces.
Wars will cease when men refuse to fight – that is a most honourable proposition and needs to be foremost in the minds of soldiers. Defense is the purpose of the training NOT warmaking. It is a difficult distinction but it is vital (to the world) for the USA to get to grips with it. If a nation has a psychotic necessity to make militarism grand then they should keep it at home and not spray it all over the planet.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 5 2021 11:05 utc | 180

Peter AU1 #179
Thank you, I got press ganged and took the judicial war right up the whites of their eyes until they blinked. And then went guerrilla peacenik and rained on their blood soaked parade from then on.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 5 2021 11:11 utc | 181

@ uncle tungsten
Meh, you won’t find much respect for Sihanouk from me, the guy was an opportunist, just like Deng Xiaoping, he supported Pol Pot then washed his hands when Pol Pot got exposed.
Anyway, I recommend Nhan Dan online: https://en.nhandan.vn/

Posted by: Smith | Sep 5 2021 11:23 utc | 182

Gruff –
You make a lot of assumptions about me. I never once in my life advocated for sending our your overseas to kill people. In fact I was by far a minority is opposing both the Iraq war, the Afghanistan war and every other intervention the US has undertaken in my lifetime.
Why do most people join an all volunteer military? Some are duped, ie patriotism. Some are psychopaths and enjoy rape and murder. Some are too stupid to succeed in our capitalistic society. And some want to get a house or an education out of it, ie free education or a very favorable loan for a house in exchange for service, or free lifetime healthcare and a sweet retirement.
I would like to see a military that stays at home and defends our country from foreign invasion. In that case we could talk about honor and duty.
I honestly dont understand how you came to the understanding from this conversation that I expected soldiers in country to disobey orders and become peaceniks. Poor reading comprehension?
A person who joins because they want a house or a free education, free healthcare, or a pension; are these people not doing this for money? Does that not make them mercenaries?
How can anyone grow up here and still think the military is used for anything but plundering other nations?
The ones at fault here are those kid’s stupid as parents who didn’t teach them not to fall for cheap propaganda. What kind of morally degenerate mother fucker commits murder because someone told them to. As I pointed out early in this conversation, that is socially unacceptable behavior in every context except the military and will get you locked up for the rest of your life in civilian society.
I used to enjoy your posts, the last year or so, I mostly find you to be an asshole.
To others who still want to hold Smedley up as a principled man, let me ask this. According to his own admission he was a hired goon for 33 years. When exactly did he come to this realization? After 10, 20, 30 years? On the last day of his 33rd year he finally realized the error of his ways?
Ok, well then, its all good. You are forgiven for all the people who have died due to your actions, the 1000’s or 10,000’s or 100,000’s of thousand who are dead because of your actions, they forgive you to, you truly are a great and admirable man. I salute you sir!
Do none of you folks have a moral compass?
Lets pretend he single-handedly prevented a coup. He also wrote an essay denouncing the military’s actions. So when we look at the cosmic scale of his lifetimes actions we have: thousands and thousands of immoral actions on one side of the scale, and two on the other side of the scale. That seems balance out just fine.
I stand corrected, he is an admirable man, and I am an asshole.

Posted by: David F | Sep 5 2021 13:49 utc | 183

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 5 2021 11:05 utc | 180
If you think about it, it is easy to see that with the exception of 3 or 4 occasions, the US military has always been a colonial army, it’s why we get along with with the Izzies and other political shitheads, why they lose, not fighting for anything they believe in, they are fighing to get a pension. Why they are dicks when they lose, etc. etc. there goes the pension. They are employees, not citizen soldiers, citizens have rights, employees don’t, not here anyway. And that is where the frivelous and greedy attitude about war comes from, we’ve never had it happen on our turf, so much easier that way. Oz military looks much the same. Successful colonies tend to have demented militaries because of the unrealistic situation they operate in. Izzies are a perfect example. For most of our history it was called the “War Department”, which was much more accurate. Nothing to do with defense, really.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 5 2021 15:18 utc | 184

Our forefathers had plenty of honor serving in their militaries, the current generation has no excuse whatsoever.
There is nothing honorable about sitting in trailer in Arizona playing video games to blow up poor foreign families knowing that the US government will declare every one of your F&U as a terrorist kill and the lapdog press eagerly go along with it. If one does not know enough about foreign wars because they have been too busy playing video games and watching or playing football to learn about anything, there is nothing honorable about that either. A book is $10, youtube is free. There is absolutely no excuse for the current generation.
There is nothing similar to our current reality and the decisions made by our fore forefathers. They were often too poor to travel across nations (something only the very rich could do as aircraft technology was very limited), no internet, college was an elite institution, and often lived in monocultures. They could legitimately claim they had no way to know what they were getting themselves into and just trying to serve the country. Dont attribute the honor of our forefathers to excuse our current wasteland of an education system.

Posted by: Turk 152 | Sep 5 2021 18:47 utc | 185

William Gruff @149–
The US Marines do not “fight for money”. They fight because it is their duty. They fight for the honor earned by doing their duty. [My Emphasis]
Within the Outlaw US Empire’s military, a soldier’s duty is defined within his Oath, fundamentally, primarily, most importantly, “to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic…” [My Emphasis] Of course, the importance of that Oath is never actually discussed, although there is a very small cursory bit of information dealing with illegal orders provided in one of the classes taught during basic training. I contend a great many vets are ashamed they failed to do their duty. When I enlisted late in 1979, I knew domestic enemies existed at very high levels thanks to numerous sources, of which The Warren Commission Report and The Pentagon Papers were of the greatest influence. But I also knew what duty was thanks to Audie Murphy and Smedley Butler.
During a recent very honest discussion with my wife, we concluded that we’re both guilty of Going Along to Get Along within our lawless, immoral society–Nobody’s willing to do their duty, not as a soldier or citizen. And that’s the most depressing truism of all.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 5 2021 21:16 utc | 186

@187 karlof1
We’ve been fed the koolaid since birth. It took time to understand the sheer scale and all-pervasiveness of the criminal nation we actually were born into. We can be glad at least for having seen this.
As to what to do, while we can all suggest frameworks for betterment and for the true running of the Union and the States, no one has answers as to how to make this happen.
It seems that it must take communal action. The closest I can come to the beginning of a solution is a new political party, framed on principles that insulate it from corporate capture. But I don’t believe one person can mount any kind of remedial action alone, nor should one person blame oneself for not acting.
We’re all watching, waiting, trying to figure out how to fix this terrible thing. Life may do it for us, as it often does. We must stay informed and ready for whatever comes.
~~
By the way, I left a comment for you a couple of days ago that you may not have seen, regarding the quandaries of your wife getting vaccinated: Open Thread 67 – #58.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 5 2021 21:43 utc | 187

The world needs better?
Actually, the world is getting better: Saudi Arabia and Egypt have joined China’s defense alliance, the Shanghai Cooperative Organization, SCO, and Iran will become a full member on January 1.
The SCO counts four nuclear powers in a membership that includes China, India, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Pakistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, four Observer States interested in acceding to full membership (Afghanistan, Belarus, Iran, and Mongolia) and six “Dialogue Partners” (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Cambodia, Nepal, Sri Lanka and Turkey).
Times of Israel: “Israeli officials cautioned Biden against heavy criticism of Egypt, Saudi Arabia. Jerusalem fears that singling out Sissi and MBS on human rights violations risks sending their countries into arms of Iran, China and Russia”.

Posted by: Godfree Roberts | Sep 5 2021 22:10 utc | 188

Grieved @188–
Thanks for your reply and for your earlier note in response. We took the day off yesterday to go for a boat ride on a very pacific Pacific while allowing our crab traps to do their work as we tried to catch this year’s very hard to find halibut. As I mentioned, the problem is bureaucratic–one of her employees works within a clinical space and given the mandate needs to be vaccinated but wouldn’t need to if her office was in a “normal” non-clinical office place. The problem arises if she were to become unable to perform her work then T would need to be vaccinated to properly conform to the terms of the job. But all that completely disappears if her subordinate moves to a non-clinical office place–where she ought to be in the first place–which is what’s now being pursued. The outcome ought to be a Win-Win all around as the clinic needs additional space within its clinic for clinicians, and there’s zero reason for her subordinate to be ensconced in that particular office space as others are available. Yes, in short a SNAFU.
As for what to do about our failed nation, we certainly aren’t alone in seeing the problem, but building solidarity as I’ve preached is even more difficult given Covid. Then there’s also the “Anti-Patriot” animus that’s a direct result of the absolutely false 6 January “Insurrection,” which I see as a deliberate provocation to launch that new Establishment Narrative.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 5 2021 22:34 utc | 189

karlof1 Grieved
Back in 1978 I was camped near three people that were found murdered about a month later. That was at the campgrounds of the Mount Isa caravan park. When I saw on TV they had been murdered and police were calling for witnesses I was working on a cattle station several hundred k east of Mount Isa. I contacted the police straight away, one detective coming out to interview a couple of days later then a few days after that they asked me if I would do an official interview at the station and an identket picture of the person I had seen. By that time there had been descriptions of a person and vehicle the police were looking for and a lot of other stuff. I was a seventeen year old kid at the time and some things from the media were superimposed over my actual memories. A number of other things though that conflicted with the official narrative I was absolutely sure about.
I used to wonder at times over the years what had happened to those three but mostly put it down to a drug deal gone wrong.
I hadn’t thought about it for a long when 43 years later police contacted me saying the had opened cold case and wanted to interview all the witnesses again.
It was some time after that, the investigation was made public and again they put up their fictional narrative of events.
Then a suspect was arrested but still the same fictional narrative.
The person arrested was the one I was asked if I recognized while at the station trying to put together a picture of the person I had seen. He had been found in possestion of one of the bikes.
I began doing a lot of research on those murders and run to a person who’s brother had been murdered around that time, simply declared missing and no murder investigation occurring. He was looking into all the unsolved murders up there in case here could get a lead through one of them to who killed his brother.
When he started asking me questions about the mount isa killings, I found I had contradicting memories and started to realize the media had influenced me when I was a 17 year old kid. He then sent me some photos, one I dismissed when I first saw it but then I kept coming back to it as my memories of that time returned.
I needed my original statements to go through and sort out what were my memories and what had been superimposed on my memory by the media. Here in Australia we have a full right to a copy of any statement given to police, but my request was refused. Also I could not contact any of the detective involved in the cold case.
Next event was the detective that had arrested the suspect ringing to ask if I would be a witness at the trial. I told him health permitting I would, but I warned I would testify their suspect was not the person I had seen.
A few days later he rung me back and said he wanted to re-interview me. We had a few email exchanges and because of the total incompetence of both the original and the cold case investigation I straight out asked if he was setting me up to fail.
I had already sent him a long email that included the picture of the person I saw and I had searched images and found the exact vehicle.
By the end I had the impression he was going to investigate it a lot more and have heard nothing of the court case which I think was scheduled for about now. I have put in a lot of time researching since they arrested the suspect so don’t realy want to be a witness.
The most confusing thing has been that their were actually two people involved. Father and son. The father was the person that would leave the park with at dusk every evening, not returning until the small. That vehicle was a landcruiser troopy from the mines.
The son, who was the person found in possession of one of the bikes was the person that arrived in a two tone landcruiser wagon to take away their camp which I did not see. The father owned a two tone landcruiser.
But how as a 17 year old the media had superimposed stuff onto my memory…. Some survive their youth some don’t. There was a lot of young people like me traveling around northern Australia at that time with no place they had to be and nothing to tie them down. Get a job for a bit there go wherever takes your interest at any given moment… A surprising number of them from that era and broad area stretching along the highway from Darwin to Townsville are now simply unsolved murders.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 5 2021 22:44 utc | 190

@190 Peter AU1
Interesting story. Let us know if any developments.
Memory. The mind is not as solid as we think it is – it’s much more like a dream where we use flimsy props to stand in for whole concepts and events.
You can have a peak experience, and be sure you’re remembering it vividly and then find you remembered it not quite accurately to the original experience. Even life-changing things.
We think we’re pressing a “replay” button of a scene that was actually recorded in our minds on some tangible medium, but we’re always creating a simulation. And I just looked it up and apparently even eidetic (photographic) memory can’t yet be proved to exist. There is no actual medium of record in the mind, it would currently seem.
~~
When I was kicking around Europe, the Aussies were always the best travelers, it seemed to me. They explained it as a case that Oz was so far away from anywhere that if you traveled to anywhere out of country you went for a long time. To visit the States, for example, they would plan to take a year and get a car and live and work their way around the country – no such thing as a quick trip to one place in the country. Same with Europe – they treated it all as one land mass, with Middle East next door, and Asia one more stop beyond that.
What I didn’t realize, until just now at comment #190, is that, logistics aside, they actually got their immersion in this way of traveling from their own country 😉
Thanks for the tales!

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 6 2021 1:02 utc | 191

Grieved “Memory. The mind is not as solid as we think it is – it’s much more like a dream where we use flimsy props to stand in for whole concepts and events.
You can have a peak experience, and be sure you’re remembering it vividly and then find you remembered it not quite accurately to the original experience. Even life-changing things.”
On the first sentence very much so. On the second, what I remember is what was seen through a seventeen year olds eyes. At the time the three on bikes rocked up to the caravan park, I saw them coming in – a couple of big bikes, sidecar with a rottweiler perched on top like a bloody great mascot. To me at the time they were like rockstars and I took a lot of interest in their comings and goings. Now I look at them and they look like a couple of scruffy young men (I am now a scruffy old man)
For me, the four wheel drive vehicle had always been a bit vague as I was not into 4wd back then, but the colour and rough body shape at the front have always been their. Very much like a dream where the full shape could not be made out although there was some sort of structure their. I spent many hours over a long time searching images that would fit that vague memory. When I ran onto it, it triggered a lot of other memories the media had buried. I did find one thing in my memory that the intervening forty three years had changed around and that was which person rode which bike.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 6 2021 1:42 utc | 192

This thread, quite a bit of it about the motivations of those that join the military…
That person that most likely killed the three was a diesel mechanic at the time. He later put in time as a corporal in the military and then as a unit commander at a supermax prison. The wrong side of the bars will be a very bad place for him.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 6 2021 1:51 utc | 193