Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 11, 2021

Some Thoughts On 9/11

Twenty years ago I was chief technology officer for a major news website. It was after lunch and I was testing new productivity tools for the news room. Someone came into my office and said that a plane had hit the WTC in New York City. I walked into the news room where several TV screens were filled with pictures of a smoking tower. 

The news folks were busy writing their first takes. Some of it was speculation. I mentioned that this was not the first plane to hit a skyscraper in NYC and called it an accident. That made it into one of the first take stories.

Still - even as an accident it was spectacular news and the page views per minute on the website went towards our capacity limits. Then the second plane hit and it was immediately clear to everyone that these were no accidents. The web traffic went through the roof.

We had had ample capacity to cover news peaks but this was way too much traffic for our normal site to handle. I told the server administrator to take down all side processes on the web-server machines we were using. We then started to minimize the content of the site. Everything that was generated dynamically was switched off. We minimized the numbers of pictures. We stopped all advertisement delivery. Other major news sites I tested were already dead - overwhelmed from the enormous amount of traffic. We were still up - but even loading the much cleaned up front page took more than 30 seconds.

I phoned up a number of IT guys I knew who administered public web sites for other purposes. I asked them to mirror our site through a side channel we had opened for that purpose. We then fiddled with the domain name servers to reroute a part of our traffic to those mirror sites. With those finally up and running we barely made it through the evening traffic peak without crashing everything. 

The traffic stayed above our nominal capacity for over a week. I stopped my news room productivity project and set down to design a new content delivery system which allowed for a dynamic addition of capacity. The design was quite expensive but three month later we implemented it.

9/11 touched a bit on my job but I was lucky to avoid its other deadly consequences.

Before working for that news site I had long worked with Americans on a daily basis. I had been to the U.S. over a dozen times during the previous years. It was immediately clear to me that its people would want revenge. They would not care much against whom it would be waged. That private prediction turned out to be right.

Little has changed since. The catharsis that 9/11 should have brought never happened. Most people still don't care about the wars of terror and who gets killed in them. I blame the media for that.

Today the New York Times and the Washington Post both report on the recent 'righteous' drone strike in Kabul:

Times Investigation: In U.S. Drone Strike, Evidence Suggests No ISIS Bomb
U.S. officials said a Reaper drone followed a car for hours and then fired based on evidence it was carrying explosives. But in-depth video analysis and interviews at the site cast doubt on that account.
Examining a ‘righteous’ strike
Expert analysis of deadly U.S. drone strike’s aftermath in Kabul suggests no evidence of explosives in targeted vehicle

Ten innocent persons, including 7 children, were killed in that strike.

I applaud those reports. But there have been some 15,000 other drone strike since 2007. Most of those have hit innocent people but there was little reporting about them.

Three days before the drone strike happened a much bigger massacre took place.

A suicide bomber hit at the gate of Kabul airport. The bomb killed several dozen people including U.S. soldiers. But what happened immediately after the bomb went off made the incident much deadlier. Those who guarded the airport opened fire on the large crowd that had hoped to be let in to catch a flight to somewhere. In total more than 170 people died, some of them were British citizens, others were Taliban guards, most were Afghan civilians.

Local Afghan news, a BBC report on Twitter, Russian public TV (at about 3 min, German translation), China's major news agency and other reporters all spoke to eye witnesses who all confirmed the story: "Most of those dead were killed by bullets."

But 'western' media have buried that story. The sole mention of it I could find is deep down in a long NYT report about the evacuations from Kabul:

For the first time, Pentagon officials publicly acknowledged the possibility that some people killed outside the airport on Thursday might have been shot by American service members after the suicide bombing.

Investigators are looking into whether the gunfire came from Americans at the gate, or from the Islamic State.

'Officials publicly acknowledged the possibility ...'  Do they call THAT 'reporting'?

There were quite obviously no ISIS shooters at the gate.

Why ain't U.S. media all over a story during which the U.S. side killed more than 100 innocent people? Is it hyping the drone attack, which killed 10, to cover for the more embarrassing act during which troops under U.S. control massacred many more than that? Because those troops were the CIA's Afghan death squads who may soon be your neighbors?

Before 9/11 U.S. intelligence knew of Al-Qaeda sleeper cells and of plans for new attacks. Then came 9/11. I am by now one of those who thinks that they let it happen on purpose. That is because all the wars that followed had long been prepared for.

Following 9/11 the U.S. wars of terror displaced 37 million people and killed at least a million foreigners. The U.S. wars of terror are still going on today in Somalia, Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Libya and elsewhere.

Shouldn't 20 years be long enough to end those wars? To find some closure? To suppress the urge for revenge? To change the rather aggressive general U.S. mentality?

Unfortunately the answer to all those questions seems to be "No".

Posted by b on September 11, 2021 at 17:52 UTC | Permalink

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@ Haasan:

I don't know what kind of physics you used, but as an engineer with advanced working knowledge of thermodynamics and heat transfer, I can tell you the NIST so-called 'heat model' is complete BUNK.

What they have produced has absolutely NOTHING to do with a formal heat transfer analysis. I know, I have done many. I have extensive background in designing heat exchangers.

Most of the jet fuel energy was consumed in those huge fireballs at point of impact. Those were OUTSIDE the building. In order for jet fuel to combust it must be PRECISELY balanced by an air to fuel ratio. That only happened at the precise moment of impact when the mass of fuel was VAPORIZED.

The fire inside the building was from office furniture, which is like a house fire in terms of temperature, low temperature and lots of black smoke. That's called a diffuse flame. A high temperature fire makes almost no smoke.

Then there is the issue of heat transfer into very thick steel. That is impossible under those low fire temps and without FORCED CONVECTION.

I will dig up later photos of a Spanish steel frame highrise that was utterly consumed in a huge ORANGE FIREBALL that literally dwarfed the building. It burned like that at high temp for 24 hours. Naturally it remained standing.

Anyone with even a basic knowledge of thermodynamics, looking at that mickey mouse black smoke coming from a few floors, knows the score instantly.

Posted by: Gordog | Sep 12 2021 0:26 utc | 101

I lived in Brooklyn and worked in downtown Manhattan during the events before during and after September 11, 2001.

My wife and I were home that Tuesday morning, me because I had worked until very late the night before, and she because she was scheduled to train workers on the afternoon shift that day. We were woken by a call from her father in Michigan, "do you have the tv on."

We wondered what to do, I spent a couple of hours tracking down my co-workers who were huddled in the middle of our office, desperately trying to figure out how and when they could safely leave -- our building was 11 Broadway, about 6 blocks south of WTC. They eventually walked to the foot of Broadway and were evacuated by boats piloted by volunteers.

Our other partner would have been traveling to work from Hoboken NJ through the PATH train station below WTC. It turned out he was late and did not come into the city.

Cell phone service was overwhelmed as everyone tried to contact their loved ones. My wife eventually drove our full-size sedan into downtown Brooklyn to pick up co-workers who walked east from their office at One NY Plaza and crossed the Brooklyn Bridge on foot.

As we drove to donate blood around midday (there was no way to do that, the Red Cross had ample supplies) we had the car radio on, probably to CBS. I distinctly remember one newscaster saying something like "as yet there has been no decision about what to do with WTC 7."

When that building fell later in the afternoon I knew without a doubt that it had been controlled demolition. I recall thinking that they must have worked very fast to get the explosives installed so quickly, and that there must have been a public safety reason for its removal. How wrong I was.

As for the flight path, some have speculated that a beacon was installed in one of the towers during the Gelatin art project, where Israeli artists had access to WTC 1 91st floor, where they removed a window and installed a platform, like a tiny sundeck. The installation was filmed from a helicopter and an article about this was published in the NY Times on August 8 2001. Here's one of many articles about the Israeli art project at WTC 1.

This could obviously have been related to the later events. Also pertinent are the numerous contractors entering the complex in white vans, ostensibly I believe to work on asbestos removal. There was a scheduled power outage, I believe some floors and an elevator were closed to the tenants and public, there is lots of documentary evidence about opportunities to plant explosives.

My feelings are clear, this disaster was planned and executed by a multidisciplinary team with multiple goals, netting Larry Silverstein a double insurance payout, destroying evidence of multiple criminal investigations, killing innocent people that day, during the cleanup process, and leading to now 20 years of legal restriction, torture and horrible destruction and loss of life.

Posted by: jonku | Sep 12 2021 0:34 utc | 102

karlof1 @34

I saw this article in The Saker but what does it prove? There is just not enough (apart from the author's name) to give Escobar's Twitter stream any particular credibility. Unless there is an actual recording and the source goes on the record then this doesn't amount to anything? Is there something (more) that I am missing? Is there any real evidence?

Posted by: ADKC | Sep 12 2021 0:37 utc | 103

I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that this post wasn’t written by b.

Posted by: Cadence Calls | Sep 12 2021 0:41 utc | 104

Uncle T, a laser guidance system is not necessary.

An airliner has sophisticated and very precise nav guidance by means of inertial nav systems, usually two for redundancy.

An autopilot programmed to fly that profile could do it easily. The problem is hand-flying the aircraft in that way, and with visual reference only.

The idea that a low-time amateur pilot could do it is preposterous.

Posted by: Gordog | Sep 12 2021 0:47 utc | 105

That’s a powerful recollection and hindsight thanks.

It reminded me of my day and ensuing events which were linked.

I worked in a print media associated company.
We had just completed a office move. Out insurance broker had turned up to validate our new office cover. We had retired for a early pint and sandwich at a nearby pub. The YTV was on. As we sat down the channel went live to NY. The second plane hit. The sandwich hadn’t arrived yet. We stared sipped a pint and quietly watched. And with gallows humour exchanged a gallows humour thought. Lucky we fixed our insurance, the rates would be immediately different.
I knew that we would have to call extra staff in overnight as this was going to be a massive print media night.
Having had the sandwich and finished our pint and considered that between 2-5,000 people would have been above the strikes, we needed to get back to our offices.
On my return I put the tv on that we had for occasional sports. We started scrambling to get ready for the extra work load and calling people in. One of our clients rang to say that they thought that there might be some planes coming to London and they were evacuating. I have the staff a choice to stay or go. Commuter traffic would be affected. We were not in a likely target area.

Not long after the revenge invasion of Afghanistan, as we prepared to go into Iraq. I was an of 7 countries in 5 years .
We were shut down shortly after.

20 years! I didn’t realise the deep historical connections until about a decade later.

Thank goodness the shits are faced with the SCO they tried to kill at birth 22 years ago. It is the actual and welcome Great Reset that humanity needs. Living inside a collapsing Empire. That daily lies and prosecutes to pretend it isn’t dying is not fun. But like Samson I would rather bring the pillars and roof down upon us faster as than carry in with the daily lies and propaganda.

Posted by: DG | Sep 12 2021 0:52 utc | 106

ADKC @103--

I agree. All I was doing was spreading the info and linking to Saker's is problematic, so I cut & pasted. It didn't add anything new and omitted some very important details that would have provided much greater credibility. So, an insider sorta admits part of the truth, that's not really news to us.

One other point--the cell phone call that couldn't have been made because of the available tech. All the little lies to create the cover for the BigLie--like the Magic Bullet--gave it all away long ago, before Iraq, which is why they needed another BigLie.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 12 2021 1:02 utc | 107

Robert Fisk (RIP), Beirut-based reporter for The Independent (UK) insists that the Torah Bora caves bombed by the AmeriKKKans were built for Bin Laden/al-CIA-duh BY the AmeiKKKans. Al-CIA-duh was invented by the CIA to decimate the Russians in Afghanistan.

The heat-detector coolant cartridges for the Stinger MANPADs supplied to al-CIA-duh by the CIA had a shelf-life of circa 10 years and there were hundreds of unused Stingers so they couldn't 'safely' bomb the crap out of Afghanistan until 2000.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 12 2021 1:04 utc | 108

An image search for 'Windsor building fire Madrid orange fireball' will bring up incredible images.

Posted by: Gordog | Sep 12 2021 1:06 utc | 109

There is also an interesting analysis of the Black Eagle Trust Fund (pdf), credibly explaining why and when these attacks were needed to destroy evidence.

This is about GHW Bush, Team B, and so on.

The covert securities used to accomplish the original national security objective of ending the Cold War ended up in the vaults of the brokers in the World Trade Center, and were destroyed on September 11, 2001.36 They came due for settlement and clearing on September 12. The federal Agency investigating these bonds – The Office of Naval Intelligence- was in the section of the Pentagon that was destroyed on September 11.37 To a key group of senior National Security officials who had participated in the victory of the economic cold war in 1991, the WTC, the Pentagon, the four airliners and their occupants would became ‘collateral’ damage in the ending of the Cold War. Their deaths were required to hide the existence of the Black Eagle Trust, and the covert activities it had funded for over 50 years. The alternative view of these events suggests that the destruction of these lives and buildings constituted a cover-up of continued lawlessness by a fraternity or brotherhood of businessmen and criminals often referred to as ‘the Enterprise’ in the 1980s, but has remained in the shadows since.

Posted by: jonku | Sep 12 2021 1:13 utc | 110


I looked up the construction of a number of buildings that had burnt some time back. I also looked at other buildings that had simply collapsed or partially collapsed of their own accord. I also looked at a number of new design bridges that have simply collapsed in the past.

What I see with the WTC buildings is a New design light weight high tensile structure, no internal load bearing walls, non load bearing floors critical for bracing and unknown damage due to impact.

Also from some of the photos, there appears to be quite strong wind at times with the smoke being more horizontal than vertical.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 1:25 utc | 111


Saker religiously believed the stuff about the bolt heads being painted with nano thermite and that's when I stopped reading his site. Anything 9/11 there is a waste of time and for me anyway, puts into doubt anything he writes as far as serious analysts go.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 1:30 utc | 112

For someone with Bernhard's investigative capabilities it's child's play to learn that 911 was a wholly inside job with Cheney and Rumsfeld and the CIA/FBI as the major culprits. It takes a little more to understand that there were no planes, no hijackers, no Muslims involved. THAT takes reading Gerard Holmgren's 10 page essay, "The Truth About 911" which is how I found out. (See my book of essays, No Planes on 911, available on Amazon.)
The question is why B has preferred not to look into the matter. It's the same reason Ben Norton, Max Blumenthal, Glenn Greenwald and the rest of the left media don't touch it. They don't want to distance themselves from their real and potential audience.

Posted by: Ronald Bleier | Sep 12 2021 1:38 utc | 113

Native New Yorker here - navy vet and downtown worker that day. Seeing what I saw, no friggin way the official narrative holds up. Those buildings were demo'd. The 20 years of subsequent wars were Horseshit. I'm just about 60 years old and I fucking hate my government

Posted by: Adriatic Hillbilly | Sep 12 2021 1:46 utc | 114

@ DG | Sep 12 2021 0:52 utc | 106 who ended their comment with

But like Samson I would rather bring the pillars and roof down upon us faster as than carry on with the daily lies and propaganda.


Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 12 2021 1:48 utc | 115

Oz's 9/11 was drawing to a close when AmeriKKKa's 9/11 was unfolding. I'd just returned home from a night out with the blokes when the phone rang. One of the blokes I'd been with said "Are you watching TV?"
"No" I replied.
"Well have a look. I'm not sure what's going on, but something big has happened in America."
I flicked on the TV and the first image was of smoke pouring out of a WTC tower. I woke up the VCR and watched the drama unfold for the next few hours and got it all on tape.
My over-arching recollection from that night was of a female flight-attendant, curious as to why her flight had made an unscheduled landing. Someone told her about WTC. Her first reaction was...

"Jesus Christ! I'll bet that dumbass President of ours will use that an an excuse to bomb the crap out some country no-one's ever heard of!!!!"
The other indelible recollection was of an agitated and distressed middle-aged woman with a pale blue top. She was in a corridor and looking up at something outside a window. She let out an hysterical moan and turned away. You could tell that she wished she hadn't seen what she'd been watching - probably people jumping out of WTC to 'escape'...

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 12 2021 1:53 utc | 116

113 "The Truth About"

Democracy, Humanitarian, R2P, Truth.... all go into the same category. Words that have been raped, pillaged, and plundered - in short Americanised

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 1:58 utc | 117

Posted by: Haasaan | Sep 11 2021 23:56 utc | 91

One thing no body mentions about Flight 370, is the murder of Houssenaly Zahid Raza Honorary Malaysian Consul in Madagascar, who was murdered on 24 August 2017. After refusing to accept the debris washed ashore on near by Re-Union island! His car was riddled with heavy calibre machine gun.
Lot of people that had relatives on the plane, claimed they rang phone number of their relative that were passengers on the plane and it rang, the Malaysian Minister of Transport, claimed that these people were delusional due to trauma and anguish, then in moronic manner, he admitted that his staff rang the air crew phone numbers and it kept on ringing, this is only possible if that plane was near a TOWER, not under the sea, or water.
For of all the thing about 9/11, the Building 7 demolition is a Master Piece, it falls right in its foot print, but those passport found without any singe on them, really screwed up the show! The steels melts, the paper/plastic passport survives!

Posted by: Grishka | Sep 12 2021 2:10 utc | 118

For me it was clear that the CIA, FBI etc.knew about the Saudi Islamists plot and let it happen. The CIA had imported them to be trained to do similar terror attacks abroad.
Too much profitable fallout from another Pearl Harbor: finally legal mass surveillance on US soil too; free pick of next war theater as Joe Sixpack would support anything out of revenge. Huge weapon sales – big money / power. That it could happen so easily is proof of the agencies top complicity. Them getting promoted afterwards means Bush etc. were also in the loop.

The next level is to conclude that not only building 7 was prepped by non-Saudis but even WTC 1 and 2 too. Max insurance payout plus max drama guaranteed and the Islamists projected as the only perps. Win, win, win, loss of a few thousand local pawns, so it was a go.

Posted by: Antonym | Sep 12 2021 2:15 utc | 119


10,000 engineers, 10,000 opinions on 9/11. Reminds me a bit of the climate change arguments.

Posted by: Haassaan | Sep 12 2021 2:26 utc | 120

Peter, a few thoughts to keep in mind.

If you make a very big bonfire and then put even a smallish steel beam right into the fire, what do you think will happen?

Or try placing your fireplace poker right in the fire. Is it going to get red hot? To the point that it has lost a lot of strength and can be easily bent?

Of course not. Because heat transfer is a very SPECIFIC physical mechanism.

There is simply no means for heat to ENTER the steel in any sufficient QUANTITY. Yes, heat has quantity, besides temperature.

What will happen is some quantity of heat will enter that poker by means of direct contact with the hot coals. That is heat transfer by conduction.

That heat will move very QUICKLY from the hot poker tip to the handle, which is exposed to cool air. That's because steel is a good CONDUCTOR of heat, and will pass quickly from the hot end to the cold end.

The result is that heat is PASSING THROUGH continuously and not building up at one point.

Now consider that wtc building. It is so-called stick and tube design. The outer steel lattice frame is designed to counter the wind loads, that's the 'tube'. The weight is carried by an inner core of much heavier steel columns. That's the 'stick'.

Altogether there are tens of thousands of TONS of steel. Heat will continuously PASS through, traveling from hot to cold.

Now consider that an office fire or house fire is about 500 C. Steel loses half its strength at 650 C. But that's only if it's heated ALL THE WAY THROUGH UNIFORMLY.

Even at half strength, the building would not collapse, because of the safety factor built in, which is about 5 or more. [Structural engineers feel free to correct.]

Even an airplane which has to be very light has a mandated safety factor of 1.5.

Now here is a technical article that covers these facts, although they argue that the heat did cause the collapse, but due to uneven steel expansion. [This is ridiculous].

They make some egregious errors. They claim 90,000 liters of jet fuel was spilled into the building. This is preposterous, since that us the TOTAL fuel capacity of a 767 ER, and enough to fly 7000 miles, more than THREE times the actual trip distance.

An airplane is NEVER going to carry more fuel than it needs for a given trip. That is a simple fact, and the extra weight would burn a lot more fuel and also limit passenger and cargo load.

Then there are those huge fireballs at impact, OUTSIDE the building. That would have consumed nearly all the fuel right there.

But they do explain diffuse flames and flame temp, steel strength temps etc.

Bottom line, they do a great job technically explaining why their thesis is IMPOSSIBLE, lol! 😸

Posted by: Gordog | Sep 12 2021 2:28 utc | 121

Grishka 118

The West Australian over the horizon radar could track MH370 for its entire supposed flight path, but 'unfortunately' is was shut down for upgrades at that time.

Buildings 'falling in their own footprint' is entirely meaningless other than to religious believers.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 2:29 utc | 122

Haasan, not really. A FORMAL heat transfer analysis is a well-defined piece of science.

Presented using a well-defined mathematical procedure, and including CRUCIAL things like heat transfer COEFFICIENT.

There is no heat transfer analysis in the NIST.

Posted by: Gordog | Sep 12 2021 2:35 utc | 123

Posted by: Ronald Bleier | Sep 12 2021 1:38 utc | 113

One suspects that your astrologer owes you an apology - and a refund.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 12 2021 2:35 utc | 124

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 11 2021 20:17 utc | 49

The Collapse of World Trade Centre - informed by the NIST Report.... based on FACTS, not made-up stuff, bullshit, or wishful thinking.

Hi Hoarsewhisperer,

one of the enduring curiosities feeding those tin foil hat wearing rabid 911 conspiracists concerns the NIST report's own account of the 'progressive collapse' of WTC7. Specifically, the section where NIST states that stage 2 of the collapse occurs at free fall:

"In Stage 2, the north face descended at gravitational acceleration, as the buckled columns provided negligible support to the upper portion of the north face. This free fall drop continued for approximately 8 stories or 32.0 m (105 ft), the distance traveled between times t = 1.75 s and t = 4.0 s." (NIST NCSTAR 1A, p. 45).

NIST simply acknowledges the indisputable fact of free fall without explaining how this is physically possible even with their black box algorithms. They left it to the conspiracists to account for the symmetric free-fall of the rather large 47 storey steel frame structure:

And the simplest explanation via Occam's razor would appear to be a professionally executed explosive demolition.

Posted by: Zeug Gezeugt | Sep 12 2021 2:36 utc | 125

@Gordog @121

I just wanted to state my total agreement with Gordog's conclusions regarding both WTC 1/2 and WTC 7. I am a retired mechanical engineer (no surprise there), and spent many years reviewing previous incidents of fire and explosion in the oil and gas industry, and performing related risk analyses. Of course, he makes the arguments much more clearly and more understandable than I could ever do.

Posted by: retiredmecheng | Sep 12 2021 2:41 utc | 126

Gordog (53):


Posted by: Jay | Sep 12 2021 2:45 utc | 127

Peter AU1 (111):

There was a massive steel tower making up the center of each tower. That's what carried most of the load in each tower.

There is only one way to account for its disappearance, and it's not mentioned herein.

Posted by: Jay | Sep 12 2021 2:50 utc | 128

Retiredmecheng: 👍

Posted by: Gordog | Sep 12 2021 2:53 utc | 129

Gordog 121

Some thoughts. On heat conduction through steel, it is greatly slowed at joints. In bending high tensile steel in a press, I have found that heating it to below its tempering temperature makes the job easier. Steel expansion - when I was young, I remember building cattle yards from long lengths of tram line. I found that I had to cut and fit them soon after they were cut. Length cut during afternoon heat would be an inch short if I tried to fit them the next morning when it was cold.

WTC buildings - The aircraft both hit give or take square on to a side on the building. On the side they hit, most columns were taken out. The remaining columns at those corners would take a great deal extra load. But the heating and cooling - expansion and contraction in the steel, from what I could make of the construction, bolt holes were not slotted and floor beams were far longer than the tram line that I had hands on experience as far as expansion and contraction.

That initial collapse is what I have looked at most as the rest I believe is inevitable. Sabotage? Explosives/cutting charges are out as they and the ignition mechanism would have to survive impact and fire. Sabotage a level before hand is a possibility as I believe whole floors were leased out in places but that increases the number of loose lips.

The biggest problem the piles of smoking rubble that I see is that the damage caused by the impact although it can be guesstimated is an unknown. The way I see is that close to an entire side of columns have been taken out which is far different to say every second column - by the nature of its design there must be huge stress on fasteners and adjoining columns, increased by thermal expansion and contraction. One building collapsed I believe in under and hour after being hit, the other I believe stood for several hours before it collapsed.

But the biggest problem I see for the collapse of the as not being caused by the planes, apart from sabotage of the columns or fasteners of a single floor is ensuring any form of charges functioning correctly after the impact and fire.
Re the fuel - that to I realize mostly went in the seconds of impact.

I guess the three things I look at in this. 1) exact damage from impact unknown 2) the difficulty of ensuring any form of prelayed charges would ignite correctly after impact, 3) the amount of loose lips required, and I guess the nature of the structure would bring that to four.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 3:12 utc | 130

I was awake studying at night in the antipodes when normal tv broadcasting was interrupted with video streaming of a bright day in New York and twin Towers smoking. It all looked as real as a Hollywood movie. Like millions I followed the story for the next few days as the 'plot' was untangled.

However, my first suspicions emerged when I saw carefully crafted (to look normal) idiot-face images of a 'stunned' Boy-Bush reading story books to 5-year-olds in a school room. The next red-flag was zero photo's of a plane that magically evaporated in the heat of the impact and fire when millions of pages of auditor's data and reports were destroyed -- only one day after the infamous "9/10" when then "U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld disclosed that his department was unable to account for roughly $2.3 trillion worth of transactions. The next day, the U.S. sustained the terrorist attacks that changed the world, and this startling revelation was forgotten."

The third red flag was the oily spot in a paddock where one brave patriot apparently overcame some skinny Arabs with toy cardboard box cutters and 'probably' "saved the white house". I started thinking, who is writing this script? This un-reality was only reinforced years later when MH17 crashed on 17 July 2014 giving the world months of images of a vast array of wreckage of a real airline plane crash.

No doubt it all happened in the real world -- but the narratives do not match the physics. What is clear in my view is: (a) 2-3 aging buildings full of asbestos and other demolition hazards, recently re-insured by new owners, were disposed of in plain sight (at little cost to the owners and their dancing friends) and the evidence highly manipulated and disposed of asap; (b) various military/security agencies were distracted on a training exercise; (c) all other global history stopped while images and official discourse flooded the news;(e) various private Saudi planes left the USA in a hurry during a no-fly shutdown; and (f) several undamaged foreign passports were quickly found as ' evidence' and the war drums on Afghanistan (and for some reason, Iraq) began to beat.

The only other thought that came into my mind at the time was; why " 9/11" ...? And then I remembered back to my university student days when on September 11, 1973, President Salvador Allende of Chile died from gunshot wounds during a coup d'état led by CIA (and Henry Kissinger inspired, may he burn in hell) army general, traitor, and eventual dictator, Augusto Pinochet. A message by hijackers? Or a convenient date of guilt and shame to be covered over and buried in history by a new 'terror' narrative?

When I hear 9/11 my thoughts go to Santiago, Chile. And my web browser goes to the audio (the videos are being scrubbed from YouTube) at “Salvador Allende: Last speech” (11 Sept 1973 — Barricaded inside La Moneda, the presidential palace, President Allende gave his life defending Chilean democracy) at --

Posted by: imo | Sep 12 2021 3:29 utc | 131

Right, the fire itself probably only was burning at around 800-900c which would only soften the steel, not melt it, and the softened steel would have still been able to support the weight of the upper floors.

The bigger problem was distortion of the steel in the fire from one side to the other. The temperature of the fire was uneven along joists. A 200°C or so temperature gradient from one location to another will produce a great deal of stress and distortions in the relatively thin structural steel, resulting in buckling and ultimately failure of the joists/trusses/floor connector thingies.

I would be interested in hearing more on the controlled demolition theory. Seems like a very difficult thing to pull off in a busy office building, with too many people involved to keep it hushed up. How big of a crew would be required? How long would they need access to the building? How much access to the building would they need?

For myself it is an Occam's Razor type thing, with structural failure the simpler explanation.

In any event, I do think it was an inside job, so "how" the buildings collapsed doesn't change my opinion on who was responsible or why it was done. I suppose those details might matter when trying to convince others it was an inside job, but for myself it doesn't alter the fundamentals.

Posted by: Haassaan | Sep 12 2021 3:31 utc | 132

Now consider that wtc building. It is so-called stick and tube design. The outer steel lattice frame is designed to counter the wind loads, that's the 'tube'. The weight is carried by an inner core of much heavier steel columns. That's the 'stick'.

Sorry, you might care to rephrase that. It's wrong.
The outer walls support more than half of the weight of each floor because the area of the outer 'half' of each floor is much greater than the inner 'half'
If you draw a line on a typical floor of WTC 1 or 2, half-way between the service-core and the perimeter wall, ALL of the weight of the floor inside the line is supported by the service-core. And ALL of the weight of the floor outside the line is supported by the perimeter walls.
That's a lot more than half of the weight of each floor because only a small fraction of the rectangle of floor enclosed by each corner of the perimeter walls is supported by the service-core.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 12 2021 3:36 utc | 133

Of course they let it happen on purpose.

I know the precise moment when I first began to realise that the official 11/9 story was bovine ordure. That was when the Amerikastani invaders "let Osama bin Laden go" at Tora Bora instead of surrounding and annihilating the cave complex. Either the Amerikastani Empire had such good intelligence on al Qaeda that it knew immediately and exactly who was responsible for 11/9 - and as to that, remember how Timothy McVeigh's Oklahoma bomb was at first immediately blamed on "Muslim terrorists"? - or else it didn't know a thing, in which case the entire invasion was based on deliberate lies.

In the first instance the Bush regime should have had no reason to not know where bin Laden might be and root him out by any and all means, including tracking him into Pakistan; and to accuse it of squeamishness, when it was already massacring wedding parties from the beginning of its Afghan invasion, was ridiculous. Or it deliberately chose to keep him alive (or, if reports that he died of kidney failure are to be believed, kept the myth of him alive) to maintain a bogeyman to justify the occupation of Afghanistan, until such time as it was politically convenient to eliminate him (or "eliminate him", without any proof of a corpse, from the same people who displayed Brother Muammar Gaddafi, Uday Hussein, and Qusay Hussein on ice, and with a hitherto unheard of "burial at sea" for Muslims).

As soon as the marketing of the Iraq invasion began in September 2002 I was convinced that the second option was correct. I am still absolutely convinced that if the Bush regime didn't itself organise 11/9 (or deliberately allow 11/9 to happen) in an Operation Gladio meant to precipitate a planned war, it still acted exactly, to the nanometer, as it would have if it had organised or allowed 11/9 to happen to precipitate a planned war. The subsequent habit of the FBI of manufacturing "terrorist attacks" which are then "stopped at the last moment, " does nothing to disabuse me of this notion.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 12 2021 3:41 utc | 134


There is the possibility that the attacks were permitted to happen but the collapse of the buildings wasn't planned for. It was just a lucky happenstance that much improved the emotional impact. Multiple hijacked kamikaze planes would have done a good job of providing a "Pearl Harbour Moment" anyway.

It is interesting how almost no article, except the "truthers", mentions Building 7, though. As though it didn't exist and its collapse could just be wished away.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 12 2021 3:45 utc | 135

No the fire was not burning at 850 C. It was an office furniture fire, and experts give the range as 500 C to 650 C.

And more important is the HEAT TRANSFER MECHANISM. This is a specialized science, which people like Hasan have no familiarity.

The buckling theory is not applicable to a STICK and TUBE design. The outer shell doesn't carry the weight. It's purpose is to carry the WIND LOADS.

The ENTIRE WEIGHT of the building is supported by the central core.

ALSO...the building is designed to SWAY by as much as 20 feet, so there are special joints that move. That's in the floor beams that run from the core to the outer frame.

Obviously if it was designed to sway 20 ft, then how can a little misalignment from heat cause more movement than that? Ridiculous.

And again, there is no way for heat transfer from what is basically a fireplace fire. I'm not going to explain the basics of heat transfer science here. There are many good textbooks available.

The straight-down collapse would require SIMULTANEOUS CUTTING of ALL the central core columns. That is a fact.

Otherwise the building would TIP OVER!

Building 7 was brought down. That is scientifically proven.

Look at the fire in the Madrid building. It's an order of magnitude greater.

And the steel frame handled that far greater HEAT LOAD without collapsing.

Posted by: Gordog | Sep 12 2021 3:58 utc | 136


"But the biggest problem I see for the collapse of the as not being caused by the planes, apart from sabotage of the columns or fasteners of a single floor is ensuring any form of charges functioning correctly after the impact and fire.
Re the fuel - that to I realize mostly went in the seconds of impact."

A lot of the fuel wouldn't burn up immediately. The fuel in the wings would create a fireball and be consumed quickly, but the fuel in the planes body wouldn't explode, but burn over a period of a few minutes.

I have seen a similar dynamic as a stupid kid shooting gallon jugs of gas with a 30/06.

Posted by: Haassaan | Sep 12 2021 4:00 utc | 137

@Posted by: MarkU | Sep 11 2021 20:12 utc | 46

"fostered by saboteurs with the explicit intent of discrediting the movement"

Why is there any doubt.

A common and predictable tactic.

Posted by: librul | Sep 12 2021 4:17 utc | 138


I watched many videos of the collapse. The central columns were last to go. Outer columns peeled outwards, concrete floor slabs went straight down as floor truss fasteners sheered and central columns following.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 4:17 utc | 139


I think this is a little different. Something like those gallon jugs being the projectile though running at subsonic speeds.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 4:21 utc | 140

Posted by: Gordog | Sep 12 2021 3:58 utc | 136

Unmitigated claptrap. All of it.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 12 2021 4:22 utc | 141

All the fuel tanks in the 767 and in most aircraft are in the WING. The wing center section which passes through the fuselage contains only an AUXULLIARY tank, and is rarely filled.

I have already explained that an airplane hitting a building at 500 mph will instantly produce a large VAPOR CLOUD of tiny fuel particles that will combust in a fireball because of the right air to fuel mixture.

This happens due to the force of the fuel droplets being flung in all directions. As soon as nearby air molecules are in the right ratio [stoichiometric], the fuel will combust.

If you drop a match in a bucket of fuel it will not burn. The match will go out. Shooting a gun at a container of fuel is not a comparable mechanism in any way.

Posted by: Gordog | Sep 12 2021 4:29 utc | 142


It wasn't a furniture fire, it was a relatively long burning jet fuel fire. By claiming it was just a furniture fire you undermine your own position.

My familiarity with the Laws of Thermodynamics and Physics in general come from studying climate change (and audio acoustics as a hobby), so you are correct in that I don't have direct knowledge of thermodynamics in relation to building structures. But I do have a good understanding of thermodynamics in general, which isn't to say that necessarily transfers to structural engineering.

As the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward, the floors above them also fell. The floor below could not support the roughly 45,000 tons of ten floors (or more) above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour. The structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down.

While you certainly have some weak spots in your argument, it is plausible that the building was brought down in some other way. I am interested in your opinion on how a controlled demolition could have been achieved. The weakest part of your argument is that the alternatives are even less plausible.

Posted by: Haassaan | Sep 12 2021 4:32 utc | 143

It is comparable in that the gas that gets vaporized with the impact of the bullet ignites in a fireball, while the gas that isn't mixed with air doesn't explode but falls burning to the ground where it continues to burn for a minute or so.

Yes, I know where fuel is stored on a 767, but thanks.

Posted by: Haassaan | Sep 12 2021 4:36 utc | 144

Shit, I think the Rove quote and think.... meanwhile back at the ranch?

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 4:48 utc | 145

No, it wasn't a jet fuel fire. Where is the evidence for that?

Where did the energy for those huge impact fireballs come from?

How much fuel could have been left over after those fireballs?

Even if there was some small quantity left over, it would burn in a LOW TEMPERATURE diffuse flame, due to improper air-fuel mixture.

The whole premise of the fire causing the collapse hinges on the jet fuel supposedly burning. I have already debunked that thorougly. Your objections are rooted in your almost complete unfamiliarity with thermodynamics.

Btw thermodynamics is the study of energy, heat and eork, and is the foundation science for ENGINES, not buildings and structures.

Heat transfer is a branch if thermodynamics that deals with heat flow from one object or fluid to another. Your example of shooting a jug of fuel in no way is comoarable as any kind of experiment.

Posted by: Gordog | Sep 12 2021 4:51 utc | 146

Meanwhile back the ranch there is in practice in five-eyes mandatory vaccinations that do prevent the spread of the new greatest evil. The smoldering rubble gazers immediately lock onto gates chips and mind control...

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 4:53 utc | 147

"that do prevent"

Another of my many typos. Should have been 'do not'.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 4:57 utc | 148

"Btw thermodynamics is the study of energy, heat and eork, and is the foundation science for ENGINES, not buildings and structures"

No shit Sherlock

Posted by: Haassaan | Sep 12 2021 5:06 utc | 149


The jet fuel as the projectile I believe you are correct, but there is nothing to disprove the initial collapse of the impact level and nothing to prove a theory of something else causing the collapse as there are so many unknowns.

That is the problem with trained expertise, especially in the western world where it leads to a belief that there are no unknowns.

The difficulties associated with the something elses in this case makes most of them improbable.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 5:07 utc | 150

Additional info here on steel frame skyscraper fires. No such building has ever collapsed, other than the three in New York.

Posted by: Gordog | Sep 12 2021 5:14 utc | 151

"Let it happen on purpose" and "made it happen" aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. My theory has been that higher ups like Bush and Cheney were told about an attack being planned by Islamic fundamentalists, and they decided to let it happen. They didn't realize until after the fact that they were duped, and the attack was really carried out by the "deep state", and much more destructive than what they had bargained for.

Posted by: Joe C. | Sep 12 2021 5:16 utc | 152

"they let it happen' and 'they made it happen' is YUGE difference -
one they can claim WOT and the other is the Freudian slip - coup in American homeland

think about that, american!!!
its been 20 yrs passed!
I know they messed up your education system v badly but for god sake -
Think! Think! Think!

The implication is great - you will know if the terrorist is 'foreign' or is it 'in-house' of the highest commander in your 'sovereign' 'freedom fighter' land?!
Think pls!

Posted by: ? | Sep 12 2021 5:23 utc | 153

It was a Popeye missile that hit the Pentagon... The Cabal made it's demands known to the executive with their ultimatum: Angel is next.

Posted by: Boss tweet | Sep 12 2021 5:55 utc | 154

Re the pentagon. America does not do 'defence'. Its only concern is how to break through defence.
Standard short range surveillance camera would be lucky to capture an aircraft in just one frame

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 6:01 utc | 155
The FBI has released a newly declassified document related to logistical support given to two of the Saudi hijackers in the run-up to the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Key points:
The document details contacts the hijackers had with Saudi associates in the United States
It is a summary of a 2015 FBI interview with a man who had frequent contact with Saudi nations in the US who supported hijackers
Victims' relatives had objected to Mr Biden attending memorial events with the document still classified
The document details contacts the hijackers had with Saudi associates in the United States but does not provide proof that senior Saudi government officials were complicit in the plot.

Back in thread somewhere it was claimed the Saudi princes are the ones financing the various CIA proxies so it was not the government of Saudi Arabia. The family is the government of Saudi land. Palace intrigues or whatever, the family is the government.

Looks like they are now past their use by date. I believe the US 'rules based order' was changed some time back to allow their courts to have jurisdiction over Saudiland.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 6:23 utc | 156

If the Afghans...
Believed in a multicultural and diverse society...
Renounced all violence...
Considered nationalism and religion obsolete...
Fined anyone who wanted the Americans out for christianofobia and hate crime...
Then the US would still be occupying Afghanistan

Posted by: Passerby | Sep 12 2021 6:28 utc | 157

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 6:01 utc | 155

America does not do 'defence'. Its only concern is how to break through defence.

You are mixing terminology:

  • The word "Defense" always means offense.

  • "National Security" means imperial aggression.

  • The word for defense is "Homeland Security".

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Sep 12 2021 6:56 utc | 158

Petri Krohn

I see in my last few comments my typing does not match my thinking and I could not be bothered trying to correct the last one in that regard.

On this one there is no mistake or different words appearing to what I have thought for a long time. Russia and China along with other countries have put a lot of investment into purely defensive technologies.
US, a country that has never been seriously attacked and invaded before, same as rest of five eyes has put virtually no resources into defensive weapons.
It is all about how to break through defense zones. The US department of war has been seriously misnamed. Its official title should be department of offence rather than department of defense.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 7:10 utc | 159

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 11 2021 20:17 utc | 49
Wikipedia has comprehensive articles on World Trade Centre
The Collapse of World Trade Centre - informed by the NIST Report.

Both are based on FACTS, not made-up stuff, bullshit, or wishful thinking.

I reccomend the video by former NIST employee Peter Ketcham over at ae911truth. Wont risk the thread by linking it but easily found. Would like to hear your thoughts if you do watch it. Cheers

Posted by: Rhyem | Sep 12 2021 7:22 utc | 160

There is a certain energy and atmosphere working in a large 'news' organisation. It is a round the clock rush. No doubt our host b, gets a high from that, it is intoxicating and exhilarating.

It's a pity that the 'news' is heavily slanted and politicised for non nativist interests in most Five Eyes/NATO countries. Once good journalism relied on an absence of adjectives, now they are an essential part of the craft, in order to identify the good guys from the bad bastards.

The MSM offer pre-cooked meals for the gullible public to follow, and the public do follow.

9/11, the Afghanistan war and the Iraq war [don't mention the pandemic] are an example of an information war victory leading to a strategic loss.

In reality, the information war victories were self defeating 'own goals', karmic like. The great wheel of Karma spins round and look at the wreckage. The wheel hasn't stopped turning. There is more wreckage to come.

Paul with a big P

Posted by: Paul | Sep 12 2021 7:33 utc | 161


All US funded NGO's have the word democracy or humanitarian in their title. I looked through a lot of claims that had truth and truther in them or their name.
I see in b's covid thread the the same thing. Prophets tearing their hair out, covering themselves in ashes and proclaiming they are the TRUTH and proclaiming b a traitor.

Covid is very much like 9/11. A new reality is being set in place while the peasants watch the magicians hands.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 7:34 utc | 162

@Gordog | Sep 11 2021 23:36 utc | 87

The Pentagon crash was an even more unlikely piece of flying. I don't know of any pilot who has successfully accomplished that 'impossible turn' in the sim...before that 'flight vehicle' circled round and came back in to strike the building.

Not to mention how low it came in. Any airplane that is low to the ground [by even half the wingspan] is going to have a LOT of additional lift due to ground effect. That is a quantifiable aerodynamic value that would take extraordinary pilot skill to overcome and practically skim the ground without hitting.

One of the early articles questioning the official narrative was called The Missing Wings. It contained photographs of the Pentagon lawn (completely untouched) and the building facade before it fell down. It showed the hole in the wall with a superimposed image of a Boeing 757 passenger airplane of the same type that supposedly created that hole. The hole was much smaller than the airplane and most notably there were no signs of any marks or remains from the wings on either side. It was as if the wings had been folded along the body just before it penetrated the Pentagon in the exact office where an audit was going on regarding the missing trillion USD that Donald Rumsfeld had announced the day before. The auditors were all killed and nobody mentioned the audit again. Images elsewhere later showed the object penetrated several of the walls of the inner rings of the building, creating well defined holes.

A lot more could be said, but the key is the technical aspects you mention, flying an airliner as claimed is simply not physically possible. No photo has ever been provided showing a passenger plane hitting the Pentagon, even if it would have been a spectacular propaganda item. The obvious explanation for this lack of imagery is that no such photo could be provided, because the Pentagon wasn't hit by a passenger plane. Most likely, it was hit by a cruise missile.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 12 2021 7:38 utc | 163

Im a smouldering heap watcher, amoungst other peculiar habbits Ive formed post 911. As I stare into the smouldering heap that is my outdoor bbq tonight Im wondering if I tip some kero on it will the grill buckle and turn to molten metal starting a domino effect of collapse and concrete and brick turning to dust leaving a smouldering hole in my yard for the next 6 months. Nist tells me thats a new phenomena that can be proved by a 5 second cartoon they made. Id rather stare blankly at the burning heap than watch that

Posted by: Rhyem | Sep 12 2021 7:45 utc | 164


I guess staring into a smoldering heap does strange things. Molten steel.. jeez... I'll leave you to it.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 7:54 utc | 165

Valerie | Sep 12 2021 0:14 utc | 98

There were supposed to be about 32-35 cameras operational at that time. ALL the films were sequestered by the FBI. They were then said to be seen by ONE person (unnamed) who selected the few final frames (including the one that was doctored as well!), which were sent by Muller (FBI) to the Commission. The others were destroyed (or said to be destroyed) which is why Mueller was chosen. Destroying all OTHER evidence was his standard operational practice. (eh oui! telephones etc.)

uncle tungsten | Sep 12 2021 0:02 utc | 93
Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 0:09 utc | 95

Looking at Gordogs post, a homing beacon would help to explain the accuracy of the aircraft and the length of the glide path. No need for visuals. Although I am not sure that it would be correct for the pentagon hit, as the final "approach" was to all intents, impossible.

Laguerre | Sep 11 2021 21:39 utc | 66

At the Time of the original king Saud, ALL the money of the Kingdom went to him personally. He was then obliged to give portions to Senior Princes and then further down according to rank. The Princes in turn would give sums to their own followings. Failure for Saud to pass down money would probably have meant having his own throat cut (Such was the practice at the time.)

The number of Princes/Princesses was about 400 "legal" ones. However, King Saud had the habit of marrying a new girl from most of the villages and tribes that he needed allegience from. (He kept to a certain limit by divorcing the "latest" and keeping the first (Senior) wives). He was was always followed by a man with a notebook who wrote down each time the King "took his pleasure", even if on the steps of the palace. The girl, if wise, then rapidly found a "friend" who made sure that she was definitely pregnant. (Before or after divorce is not mentioned, but probably after).

The resulting child became a Prince or Princess by "marriage" - as witnessed, and the fortune of the family was assured.

The King was actually a very generous person. Faisal who came later, limited the number of wives Kings could have.

Posted by: Stonebird | Sep 12 2021 7:56 utc | 166

"letting it happen" hein, b? you just lost a lot of stripes, buddy.

Posted by: nietzsche1510 | Sep 12 2021 7:59 utc | 167

Stonebird 166

Pentagon is one that has many 'mysteries'. Any links for the official final flight path of the plane?

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 8:04 utc | 168

Posted by: Rhyem | Sep 12 2021 7:45 utc | 164

Just for fun, What state in OZ do you come from?

Enjoy the BBQ and the footie.

Posted by: Paul | Sep 12 2021 8:06 utc | 169

Paul 169
southwest w.a.

Posted by: Rhyem | Sep 12 2021 8:14 utc | 170

Posted by: Rhyem | Sep 12 2021 7:45 utc | 164

Thanks for your reply.

My nephew does the TV at the WACA. He is either in the box directing or the tall guy running along the side with the camera.

I love Freeo and the Gage Roads waterway to Rottnest Island.

Have a good one.

Posted by: Paul | Sep 12 2021 8:23 utc | 171

Number seven. I have always presumed that it was the target of one of the two airplanes that did NOT hit the twin towers. Both of whom evaporated when hitting the ground/a wall. (remember that "they" could have been waiting for something, ie. a plane, before "pulling" the building. As it had to fall down,)

The same motives (Pentagon accountabilty and archives, "sensitive personnel onboard) could be attributed to the both the Pentagon attack and the destruction of building Number seven.

I suspect these were by a different criminal group. So the "supposed" target of the "White house" is not correct.

Posted by: Stonebird | Sep 12 2021 8:31 utc | 172

@Gordog | Sep 12 2021 3:58 utc | 136

The straight-down collapse would require SIMULTANEOUS CUTTING of ALL the central core columns. That is a fact.

Otherwise the building would TIP OVER!

Building 7 was brought down. That is scientifically proven.

I am a structural engineer. As Gordog says, all the central core columns must be disabled simultaneously. There is no other way. All that is left to ponder over is the mechanism for how it was done.

Look at the fire in the Madrid building. It's an order of magnitude greater.

Indeed. I have been having these discussions for 20 years now, but people refuse to accept basic physical realities. That is how cognitive dissonance works.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 12 2021 8:32 utc | 173

"I suspect these were by a different criminal group".

Should read; "I suspect these were by a different criminal group from the one that hit the twin towers."
(There still would have been overlap though)

Posted by: Stonebirds | Sep 12 2021 8:34 utc | 174

Peter au1 162
Yeah im aware of gov funded ngo's and how they operate but do you really think ae911truth (yeah the name is sus) is one of them. A lot of very credible people with a lot of peer reviewed evidence disproving the official investigation and gov position on the causes of the collapses. Maybe reverse psychology? They know we dont trust them anymore so start telling the truth so we beleive the lies??
The two towers seemed to turn to dust in the air never showing the large top sections the were 'pancaking' the rest of the structure to pure dust beneath them. It just never looked right even as it was unfolding on that day. But there is also nothing to compare it to because it has not ever happened before or since in anything but a controled demolition.

Posted by: Rhyem | Sep 12 2021 8:45 utc | 175

How were the thermite charges timed?

I once or twice calculated the potential energy released in the collapse of the WTC towers. It was in the order of magnitude of 1 kiloton, i.e. a small nuclear bomb. Calculate it yourself: take the mass of a tower and drop it from the hight of its center of gravity of about 200 meters.

The strongest "controlled demolition" argument seems to be that the towers fell at "freefall speed". I guess this means that the hammer did not stop and wait for the nut to crack.

What I see actually happening is that all the floor slabs reach ground zero at the same moment. How fast is this?

When a stack of falling slabs reaches the floor below, all slabs continue at the same speed. Momentum is preserved, but part of the kinetic energy is "lost" and consumed somewhere. When a stack of 100 floor slabs reaches the 101st slab below them, the preservation of momentum means that the slabs lose 1% of their speed. The loss of kinetic energy is however 2%. (W = 1/2 * m * V^2).

The slabs can however fall even faster. On the upper floors the collision is mainly inelastic. The the kinetic energy lost and released is consumed in pulverizing and heating the slabs. On lower floors the collision turns elastic. The concrete simply does not have the thermal capacity to hold all the heat generated. Instead it vaporizes and turns into a blast wave. This blast wave breaks loose the lower slab and gives it an initial downward velocity, even before the main stack of slabs reaches it.

But what about freefall speed? Suppose the thermite charges are timed to coincide with freefall. One could imagine a vacuum-packed tube on the side of the WTC towers. A penny is dropped from the top floor. At each floor there is a optical sensor that detects the falling penny and detonates the charge for that floor.

The first to reach ground zero is the lowest floor. The top floor would also be there, if it was not stopped by the middle floors. The second floor will hit the ground next, then the third. All the lower floors will reach ground zero one by one until all the upper floors arrive in one pack.

This is not what happened. Actually it would be very difficult to know in advance how fast the slabs fall. Even if the CIA had attached false-flag fireworks to each floor, their timing would most likely be off sync.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Sep 12 2021 8:47 utc | 176

@Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 6:23 utc | 156

The FBI has released a newly declassified document related to logistical support given to two of the Saudi hijackers in the run-up to the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
I.e. the obfuscation is till ongoing, since the planes with the mythical hijackers had nothing to do with the physical destruction that happened. One is not supposed to ask who conspired with the US criminal government to achieve its goals of perpetual war in the ME.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 12 2021 8:47 utc | 177

In the latest from Reuters "Americans came together on Saturday to remember the nearly 3,000 killed on Sept. 11, 2001, and reflect"

In the latest from worldometers .. 677,737 total deaths to date in US.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 12 2021 8:51 utc | 178

@Rhyem | Sep 12 2021 8:45 utc | 175

The two towers seemed to turn to dust in the air never showing the large top sections the were 'pancaking' the rest of the structure to pure dust beneath them. It just never looked right even as it was unfolding on that day. But there is also nothing to compare it to because it has not ever happened before or since in anything but a controled demolition.

Many controlled demolitions have been performed around the world, but none of them turn steel structures to dust creating pyroclastic flows.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 12 2021 8:58 utc | 179

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Sep 12 2021 8:47 utc | 176

You make a very impressive case, I salute you.

My earliest ancestor in Australia was Andreas Khröhn, 1855. He was a refugee boat person fleeing from an oppressive government. The result is Barossa Valley wine. Bravo the trade war, now it is less expensive.

Posted by: Paul | Sep 12 2021 9:06 utc | 180

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 12 2021 8:58 utc | 179
I have seen one nearly identicle just not as tall not long ago on some crappy american espionage tv series. The plot was something about the bad guys 'demolishing ' a building they werent supposed to, I cant remember what it was now but am going back to search for it, will let you know if I do.

Posted by: Rhyem | Sep 12 2021 9:14 utc | 181

Posted by: DG | Sep 11 2021 18:05 utc | 2

“The war on terror was a deadly aftermath of that horrible day, “

To some it was known, and is still known as “the war on terriers” due to the expansive nature of “purposes” and “targeting of disparate mongrels”

It was an expected aftermath going back at least to the Jamestown settlement of the “exceptionalists” attempting to re-assert their coercive social relations.

Among the catalysts were the emerging perception of the increasing failures of the attempted colour revolutions in the former “Soviet Union” and of the trajectories of Eurasian integration from 1973 onwards, frustrated initially in respect of “Japan” by “The United States of America” and the “Soviet Union” informed by detente of the perceived bases of spheres of influence, plus the weaknesses/vulnerabilities from 1973 onwards of the bookends of Western Asia – Israel and Saudi Arabia.

This was supported in parallel on bases of increasing contempt that “the elite” had/has for “we the people” from 1970 onwards, in interaction with the simultaneous increasing encouraged “dumbing down” of the population through the replacement of critical thought with emotionalism in various forms, including but not limited to “Morning in America”.

It was understood by some that “the elites” when challenged would resort to disproportionate “shock and awe” in encouraged public display, and resort to “binary thinking” - “You are either with us, or you are with the “terriers”” - presently updated after the bombing at Kabul airport into other statements of revenge and vindictiveness, and mawkish rememberances of self-indulgence parotted by others, and attempts at further vindictiveness.

It was understood by some that the opponents by doing so would expand their complicity in their own transcendence whilst enhancing the opportunities of others in parallel endeavours.

To some it was not a horrible day but an expected day of blowback in the lateral process of transcending with blow-back coercive social relations by co-operative social relations.

The necessary levels of “blowback” in comparison with the “status quo” continues to become more acceptable to an increasing and widening proportion of the population of planet earth - “the terriers”increasingly displacing hatred and vindictiveness with resolve and strategic perception, whilst their opponents re-enforce their enmazement in “precedents”/living in the past which never was.

Posted by: MagdaTam | Sep 12 2021 9:18 utc | 182

I've always leaned toward the LIHOP explanation, it's a lot simpler. They had clearly already planned the war on Iraq.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Sep 12 2021 9:31 utc | 183

@Hoarsewhisperer #49:

Yes, it is enough to know the Official Story is a Lie, so why borrow eduphobic claptrap about WTC 7, and nonsense about controlled demolition?

Wikipedia has comprehensive articles on World Trade Centre


The Collapse of World Trade Centre - informed by the NIST Report.

Both are based on FACTS, not made-up stuff, bullshit, or wishful thinking.

The explanation offered by NIST (and the private companies it hired to aid in the analysis) is that the thermal expansion of the beams connected to girder A2001 at floor 13 caused it to slide off its bearing seat at column 79, triggering a progressive collapse of WTC 7. Dr. Leroy Hulsey, Professor Emeritus of Structural Engineering at the University of Alaska Fairbanks, and his team have carried out a multi-year study of the WTC 7 collapse, with final peer-reviewed results published in March 2020: “A Structural Reevaluation of the Collapse of World Trade Center 7”. They found multiple errors in the NIST analysis and have concluded that WTC 7 did not collapse because of fires.

The NIST report assumed that the exterior walls were rigid and the floor slabs were neither attached to nor had any friction with the steel framing and has calculated that the movement of the girder relative to the column was 6.25 inches westward. The girder ran north to south, and the bearing seat was 12 inches wide, so, presumably, 6.25 inches westward movement was enough for it to walk off the seat. In reality, however, the exterior walls were flexible and the floor slabs were attached to and had friction with the steel framing; Hulsey’s team used industry-standard software ABAQUS to calculate that the movement of the girder relative to the column was to the east and less than 1 inch—not enough for it to walk off the seat. Stack two identical boxes on top of each other, then move the top box sideways by 1/12 of its width. Will it fall off the bottom box? No.

Here are the invalid assumptions in the NIST report about concrete–steel and steel–steel attachments: it assumed that shear connectors on several beams were broken (no evidence for this), that there were no shear studs on girder A2001 (in reality, they were present), that the bolts fastening girder A2001 to its bearing seats at columns 44 and 79 were broken (no evidence for this). Even if these invalid assumptions were true, the girder would still get trapped behind the western side plate on the flange of column 79. Of course, the NIST report ignores the existence of the side plates, too. (Shear stud is welded to the top of the steel beam and goes through concrete, see this for an illustration.)

Further, Hulsey’s team used another industry-standard software, SAP2000, to simulate various failure hypotheses. They found that columns 79, 80 and 81 did not fail at the lower floors of the building, as claimed by NIST, that, even assuming they failed and could cause a failure of the next row of core columns, the exterior columns at the southeast side would then become overloaded and the building would tip (it did not), that even a simultaneous failure of all core columns (but not the exterior columns) would cause the building to tip to the southwest (it did not). The only hypothesis that matched the video of the collapse was a simultaneous failure of all core columns over 8 floors followed 1.3 seconds later by a simultaneous failure of all exterior columns over 8 floors. In the words of the report, “the collapse of WTC 7 was a global failure involving near-simultaneous failure of all columns in the building and not a progressive collapse involving sequential failure of columns throughout the building”.

For the non-technical people who are overwhelmed by these details, here’s a comparison between the video of the collapse, the NIST animation of its model of the collapse and the Hulsey’s team animation of their model of the collapse, showing all three side-by-side. Ask yourself: which model fits the video better?

Posted by: S | Sep 12 2021 9:34 utc | 184

And of the ghosts of 911 ? All the murdered untold thousands blown to pieces in revenge of this malevolent CON ? Do we think Islam doesn't know it was played like OSWALD? Patsied? Just as all those hot boys and girls from the hills that came running through the demolition DUST of Manhattan to satisfy the blood lust let slip by neoconazion.
Played like the babies we all were. Are.
We still see the stupified face of BUSH, struggling to raise one single wit. One single charm ! Rumsfeld's gone to hell. Cheney's on his 6th heart. BBCNN still own the airwaves. The sum total of the entire 20 years is Joe fkn Biden. Corrupt. Empty. dead. The collusion rages fauci and the branch covidian death cult lead the parade of junkies to the needle. Thats what 911 brought the world. Junk. Pfizer junk. Adolf Schwab junk. Junk culture..

Posted by: rm | Sep 12 2021 9:47 utc | 185

Posted by: MagdaTam | Sep 12 2021 9:18 utc | 182

Good comment. If only the public understood its meaning and reasoning. Then we would have real change.

Posted by: Paul | Sep 12 2021 9:48 utc | 186

A blast from the past: Sept 12, 2001, Alex Jones

'The day after the shocking terror attacks.'

Posted by: John Gilberts | Sep 12 2021 10:08 utc | 187

Re my post Posted by: DG | Sep 12 2021 0:52 utc | 106
(Please note change of monicker as explained at end)

It was a late night after catchup birthday party with many not seen for 18 months and blurry eyed phone typing I mangled a bit of what was intended and left something out so will post this addendum.

Not long after the revenge invasion of Afghanistan, as we prepared to go into Iraq. I was part of publishing a story about 7 countries in 5 years, planned well before 9/11.

We were shut down shortly after. 20 years! I didn’t realise the deep historical connections until about a decade later.when it was also common knowledge that the invasion of Afghanistan was planned well ahead of 9/11 which was obviously planned to trigger it! When we understand that the a House of Saud and the House of Bush are linked so long ago and they and other Houses are controlled by even older Houses of Finance. Who set up Nation States to better gather the Wealth of the peoples of that ‘nation’; who set such nations against each other and made Money from both sides and used their peoples to expand their Empires under controlled and owned Houses of Royalty’s...all becomes very clear.

Which set me on the path of knowing history and Money.
Which has brought me to such pools of knowledge as MoA. Where knowledge piranhas lurk and are released below the lines to note our ankles!

PS it turns out there is another ‘DG’ posting here! I suppose we should try and differentiate! I will use ‘D.G.’ henceforth.

I am DunGroanin elsewhere but D.G. For short here .

Posted by: D.G. | Sep 12 2021 10:13 utc | 188

Who gives a fuck? Three thousand people dead is nothing. My grandfather lies as one of the 11M German dead from WWII. Itself dwarfed by Soviet and Chinese casualties.

It appears that following this, the US suffered a *military* defeat on the tails of less than 3K dead over 20 years. That is, the soldiers suffered less, and over much longer, than the civilians.

Until the final nuclear Apocalypse erases us, we may truly say, at least from the Anglophone or Western point of view, that war is gay.

Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Sep 12 2021 10:29 utc | 189

This article by Hedges, will add to the debate:


Posted by: Paul | Sep 12 2021 10:40 utc | 190

RE: Posted by: Paul | Sep 12 2021 9:48 utc | 186

“If only the public understood its meaning and reasoning. Then we would have real change. “

It appears that like the opponents, strategic perception and development is not your forte.

You may have noted a previous comment on the illusions of “If only the Papa Czar knew”.

This was a slogan deflecting practice of others used by the Okhrana during the Zubatovschina which led to “Bloody Sunday”, in the old calendar of Imperial Russia on 22nd January 1905, which led to the “1905 revolution in Imperial Russia.”

Some but not all opponents are immersed in notions of “If only the Papa Czar (we the people) knew” whilst others recognising the illusions and utilities of “representative democracy” and hence such option constitutes the less strenous option, understand that coercion in various forms is the back stop for those immersed in coercive social relations due to prior encouraged sensitivities/training akin to Mr. Pavlov's dogs.

The opponents tend to the view that the benefits and utilities of “representative democracy” accrue solely to them, and that others are even more scared of threats of violence than they are – hence the caution in analysis by some “Do you think your opponent is as stupid as you are?”.

In this as in many other notions the opponents are mistaken and become further enmeshed in their illusions by being criticised, incentivising further attempts at “dumbing down the public”, to which, to quote Mr. Rove, others react as a consequence of a lifetime pledging alleigance to walls, and we the people hold these truths to be self-evident.

Posted by: MagdaTam | Sep 12 2021 10:41 utc | 191

RE: Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Sep 12 2021 10:29 utc | 189

“the US suffered a *military* defeat”

You illustrate a common immersion in the opponents' ideology that the subject is always the “exceptionalists”, that they have prime significance in all matters, and that simultaneously they are “victims but not for long”.

The transcendent register would read “Others subjected “the United States of America” to a “military” defeat, there by rendering “Others” as subjects and agents of subjection of “The United States of America” militarily.

Then allow all audiences to interpret this in any way they see fit.

Posted by: MagdaTam | Sep 12 2021 11:01 utc | 192

Do any readers recall that at the XX Commonwealth Games held in Glasgow between the 23 July and 3 August 2014 there were plans at the start or end ceremony to have incorporated in the spectacle the demolition of two towers of condemned council apartments! I have a newspaper clipping somewhere describing the proposal. The demolition never went ahead. But you have to love such Glaswegian humour!

Now if the games had been in Edinburgh would not the Freemasons have ensured such a pisstaking would have happened?

For some entertaining background to the NY twin towers, I really recommend: Man on a Wire
"A look at tightrope walker Philippe Petit's daring, but illegal, high-wire routine performed between New York City's World Trade Center's twin towers in 1974, what some consider, "the artistic crime of the century"."

Despite being made in 2008, the film, with incredible restraint makes no mention of the towers' eventual fate. But subtlely, without comment or highlight there is a short moment of historical footage of a passenger jet flying by the buildings...

An inducement to watch the film, might be to see the very heterosexual reward Philippe Petit got just after he completed his feat.

Posted by: tucenz | Sep 12 2021 11:27 utc | 193

I will also say that there is definitely a lot of nuttiness associated with the 'truther' movement. This includes things like nukes in the basement, holograms rather than real airplanes and things like that. These kinds of things do nothing but DISCREDIT those who doubt the official narrative in a more reasonable and circumspect way.
Posted by: Gordog | Sep 11 2021 18:59 utc | 25

That is precisely the intention of such claims, Gordog. It is a well known tactic used by the CIA to discredit opposing narratives - they flood the scene with crazy alternative narratives in all colours of craziness from doubtful to outright insane; then the CIA-aligned media analyse the range of interpretations, describing the most nutty in great detail but not mentioning serious alternative narratives - all alternatives to the official narrative are thereby tarred with the same brush as irrational 'conspiracy theories'. Very effective way of distracting attention from real plausible narratives.

At the same time it has a 2nd objective: those who distrust the official narrative and are looking for an alternative narrative lose their way in the bewildering maze of theories, many of which are too crazy to be seriously entertained. Probably at least three quarters of the alternative theories were probably invented and promoted by the CIA.

This method is not just used for 9/11 - all the west's intelligence services and police use it all the time when they are infiltrating any kind of activist groups. Anyone who has been involved in activism is likely to have encountered individuals who propose all sorts of crazy notions; the same people are also agents provocateurs who also propose wildly ill-advised illegal acts when the group are disgussing planned actions. (Of course, only a minority of activists will have recognised such individuals as such; most people innocently think other participants are there for the same reasons as themselves).

Unfortunately it is a highly effective method of narrative control.

Posted by: BM | Sep 12 2021 11:58 utc | 194

Best explanation about what happened during the suicide bombing at the Kabul International Airport is by Scott Ritter. Floored both Pepe Escobar and Joe Lauria.

The interview is fantastic and long (if you skip the first 30 odd minutes of stuff with Scott Horton and David McBride to get to Scott Ritter and Pepe going off). The suicide bombing explanation is at 02:13:10.

Posted by: YesXorNo | Sep 12 2021 12:05 utc | 195

I personally do not care how 9/11 happened. I just think, unlike Pearl Harbor where the Admiral of the Pacific Fleet was demoted even though the US knew through the breaking of the Japanese ciphers that it was coming, it strange that no US military were punished - no one was demoted - for allowing it to happen even though George W. Bush as governor of Texas allowed a woman and a mentally handicap man to be executed. So we know Bush had a lust for blood that he took out on Moslem countries instead of the high officers of the US military guilty of dereliction of duty.

Posted by: Albertde | Sep 12 2021 12:29 utc | 196

I personally do not care how 9/11 happened. I just think, unlike Pearl Harbor where the Admiral of the Pacific Fleet was demoted even though the US knew through the breaking of the Japanese ciphers that it was coming, it strange that no US military were punished - no one was demoted - for allowing it to happen even though George W. Bush as governor of Texas allowed a woman and a mentally handicap man to be executed. So we know Bush had a lust for blood that he took out on Moslem countries instead of the high officers of the US military guilty of dereliction of duty.

Posted by: Albertde | Sep 12 2021 12:29 utc | 197

handicapped man
If 9/11 happened according to the official story, logically, Rumsfeld should have been arrested, tried in a special court and taken outside to be executed by firing squad for leaving the US vulnerable to a terrorist attack. All the BS about how it happened whether through terrorist attack, tactical nuclear demolition, etc. was designed by the CIA to divert people's attention from this fact.

Posted by: Albertde | Sep 12 2021 12:38 utc | 198

There are, it seems, interesting similarities between the affair in Dallas and the affairs of 9-11.see offguardian "Parallels Between 9/11 and Covid-19" ( video, I am sorry to say. ) And our lost Comrade Fidel wrote a relevant precis long time ago - some 34 pages. (see>
https://ratical[dot] org/ratville/JFK/HWNAU/FC112363.html )

Fidel? "And it is a strictly objective fact that there are such types of capitalists, such types of reactionaries. And there is no doubt that the worst type of capitalism is nazism; the worst type of imperialism was nazism. And the most criminal mentality was the mentality of imperialism in its nazi form. And so there is a whole series of degrees in these questions."

I am sure my friend Karlof1 especially will enjoy Fidel's paper.
His view of the present will be thus illuminated.

Posted by: Walter | Sep 12 2021 12:48 utc | 199

karlof1 @107

Thanks! I was hoping there was something more! ):

Posted by: ADKC | Sep 12 2021 13:04 utc | 200

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