Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 09, 2021

Open Thread 2021-69

News & views ...

Posted by b on September 9, 2021 at 18:04 UTC | Permalink

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Folks, if you're interested in the reported side effects of covid vaccines, take a look...

Also, in Israeli senior citizens, protection against severe disease dropped to 50% and lower in August, so they had to urgently use boosters. Israelis without boosters will soon lose their Greenpass, and the same is going to happen everywhere else. Btw, Israel currently has the highest case rate in the entire world, and most of their ICU patients are fully vaccinated:

Posted by: Thomas M. | Sep 9 2021 18:31 utc | 2

Here, Giraldi states something that ought to be readily recognized but is seldom mentioned:

"When it becomes a crime to reveal a crime, you know that it is the criminals who are actually in charge."

Will Western publics ever act on this logic?

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 9 2021 18:58 utc | 3

Frankly, I'm up to there with Covid remarks, make a choice, and STFU. Live with it, and quit trying to convince everyone YOU know the truth of it.

What happens to you after, will reveal the truth...

Posted by: vetinLA | Sep 9 2021 19:33 utc | 4

While I found the covid thread interesting I don't want to see a repeat. I hope this thread doesn't evolve into another one.

Posted by: David F | Sep 9 2021 19:42 utc | 5

I had a medical professional covering as a CNA in the local, nigh-capacity, ICU ward tell me that the biggest factor at the moment in death from the virus is not vax-status, but obesely morbid obesity.

sign of the prophet jonah. all the beached whales.

there is not any aspect of US society or culture that is different from its disease-making "food" culture. the people who make Big Macs and call it food will and do commit any & every crime. food is a means to malnourish the masses to make them sickly and docile. the true "miracle of bread" (from the grand inquisitor in the brothers k) is how superabundance of food yields a malnourished populace.

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Sep 9 2021 19:45 utc | 6

Trial by headlines.

Trial by smoke.

Reuters main page bold headline:
EXCLUSIVE Proud Boys leader urged group not to ‘turn on each other’ in riot probe

The encroachment was a "riot", but then in the subtext it is a given
that it was "the violent Jan 6 **insurrection**".

"As four of his fellow Proud Boy leaders sat in jail this summer, charged with conspiracy in the violent Jan. 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol, the group’s chairman, Enrique Tarrio, sent out a private audio message to colleagues around the country. "

A nothingburger of an article but it generates sensational EXCLUSIVE main headlines
to pollute the reader's minds with talk of insurrection.

It also creates the stinking impression that the Proud Boys have something to hide
about their knowledge of the "insurrection"
and here was "the group’s chairman" (an FBI informant, remember)
telling everyone to keep their mouths shut.

The "chairman", Tarrio, is a known FBI informant. It evens mentions his previous work as an FBI plant in the article
if you bothered to read that far.

The FBI conveniently sidelined their informant Enrique Tarrio two days before the Jan 6 encroachment.
The FBI knew what Tarrio knew about the Jan 6 gathering.
He hasn't been charged.
But he is good for some headlines.
And creating a stink.

Posted by: librul | Sep 9 2021 19:58 utc | 7

Just finished reading an article in BBC on the Havana Syndrome. It is quite amazing. The Cubans, Russians and even Chinese are alleged to be using microwave radiation to brain wash US embassy personnel across the entire world. (this charge is absurd, those idiots have already washed their brains before they ever entered the US diplomatic service). What I found really amazing that there is absolutely no mention of crickets in this entire story.

If one recalls this accusation of the Havana syndrome first broke with recordings of the diabolical waves being recorded in the audible spectrum. Yes those sounds were most definitely recorded and put out on the internet. It took about a week for a few entomologists to identify those as sounds form a cricket that are common in Cuba.

That should have been the end of that story. But no, the BBC has now resurrected that stupidity where they totally ignore the original claims of audible sounds in Havana and go back to claims that the Soviet Union were, in the 1950s using microwaves to spy on the US embassy in Moscow. Yes, those stories have been floating around for many decades now. But today, the BBC has resurrected them as the Havana syndrome!

Perhaps these are the sounds of an empire in collapse during the dissolution of their cognitive abilities.

Posted by: ToivoS | Sep 9 2021 19:59 utc | 8

librul | Sep 9 2021 19:58 utc | 7

Trump, for whatever he may have been was effectively banned from all media during what should have been an election campaign. That was a sure sign a color revolution had taken place.

"The "chairman", Tarrio, is a known FBI informant. It evens mentions his previous work as an FBI plant in the article"

The "insurrection" was also of great benefit for the color revolution. No doubt the trail of the so called insurrection will lead back to the planners of the color revolution.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 9 2021 20:27 utc | 9

ToivoS #8

How the mighty USA have fallen, Once it was 'Our man in Havana' and now its 'Our cricket in Havana'. There is something truly mindless and absurd about 'news' oganisations that keep repeating his masters voice. For me, they only get one chance at that crap and I walk away.

The State Department people that are stationed in these places must be seriously deficient souls in the real world and I wonder how the seasoned, competent few among them manage to stay in the game.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 9 2021 20:30 utc | 10

Less than 2 days to 20th anniversary of 9-11

Media silence is deafening. Only stories about "911 conspiracies" are allowed.

If you disagree with the 9-11 Commission Report, if you raise reasonable questions about the government narrative - as many people who would not otherwise be considered "conspiracy theorists' have, then you are a "9-11 conspiracy theorist".

Our children are told patriotic fairytales but little if anything about the disturbing facts that prompt people to question the 9-11 narrative:

  • Neocons calling for a 'New Pearl Harbor' to re-make the Middle East;
  • Israeli involvement

    • tracking the terrorists for months but only warning USA two weeks before the attack
    • the strangely convenient (life-saving) absence of the Jewish oligarch that owned the WTC buildings on the day of the 9-11 attack - he always had breakfast at the restaurant at the top of the towers - except on that day
    • Israelis (acknowledged as Mossad operatives) who danced in joy as the towers fell

  • Serious questions about the free-fall of WTC7 and the powerful interests that benefited - like ending the case against Enron/Anderson;
  • Saudi involvement

    • The hijackers were Saudi
    • Saudis (mostly individuals) funded al Queda
    • Bush allowed all Saudi to leave the country - preventing any attempt to question them
    • Lawsuits against the Saudi government met with numerous roadblocks from USA government
    • Ossama bin Laden's history with the CIA

  • Bush Administration's rush to cleanup the 9-11 site (viewed by some as destroying of evidence) led to the death and injury of hundreds of people that worked 9-11 'pile' of debris as they were sickened by the toxins that the Bush Administration had declared to be at safe levels.

This is not an exhaustive list.

<> <> <> <> <>

Bush Convicted of War Crimes in Absentia - Along with Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Others

In what is the first ever conviction of its kind anywhere in the world, the former US President and seven key members of his administration were yesterday (Fri) found guilty of war crimes.

Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and their legal advisers Alberto Gonzales, David Addington, William Haynes, Jay Bybee and John Yoo were tried in absentia in Malaysia.

The trial held in Kuala Lumpur heard harrowing witness accounts from victims of torture who suffered at the hands of US soldiers and contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan.

. . .

At the end of the week-long hearing, the five-panel tribunal unanimously delivered guilty verdicts against Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and their key legal advisors who were all convicted as war criminals for torture and cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment.

Full transcripts of the charges, witness statements and other relevant material will now be sent to the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, as well as the United Nations and the Security Council.

The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission is also asking that the names of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, Yoo, Bybee, Addington and Haynes be entered and included in the Commission’s Register of War Criminals for public record.

The tribunal is the initiative of Malaysia’s retired Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, who staunchly opposed the American-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

He sat through the entire hearing ...

Boyle then referenced the Nuremberg Charter which was used as the format for the tribunal when asked about the credibility of the initiative in Malaysia. He quoted: “Leaders, organizers, instigators and accomplices participating in the formulation or execution of a common plan or conspiracy to commit war crimes are responsible for all acts performed by any person in execution of such a plan.”

The US is subject to customary international law and to the Principles of the Nuremberg Charter said Boyle who also believes the week-long trial was “almost certainly” being monitored closely by both Pentagon and White House officials.

Professor Gurdial Singh Nijar, who headed the prosecution said: “The tribunal was very careful to adhere scrupulously to the regulations drawn up by the Nuremberg courts and the International Criminal Courts”.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 9 2021 20:37 utc | 11

@4 vetinLA

Again I have to tell you.

The decisions about whether or not to get the vaccine have already been made.

The crux of it now is that those that have will not leave those that haven't alone.

Are you that daft to not see that? The Medical Experiments are hounding the control group.


And this is off-topic thread, so we can talk about it if we choose. b should probably make an ongoing header-thread for covid, however. Especially now that the private sector will be disregarding the massively massive overreach Biden just put forth today.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Sep 9 2021 20:40 utc | 12

What happened to all those Afghan 40,000 desperados that landed in the USA. Well they traveled from one remote US failure to the homeland of US failure.

Buck passing in crisis mode:

The State Department is failing to give [the Pentagon] adequate information… They don't know exactly how many [evacuees] are even there. So they can't account for someone if they don't return. And they are telling the people if you go and you don't come back, that will end your Visa processing. If they want free, they are gone. There is nobody to keep them from leaving,” Green asserted.
He remained downbeat about a Fox News host’s remarks that General Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, insisted that Afghan evacuees are allegedly going through several levels of databases to define their validity for transportation to the US.

Green, in turn, argued that “we don't have biometrics on a good portion of these people and we can't really get information from State because they won't provide names […]”. According to him, US authorities “won't even tell us how many American citizens they evacuated. We tried to get that number through the National Defense Authorisation Act (NDAA) the other day and I could not get that past. It is just crazy. This State Department is a complete failure”.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 9 2021 20:51 utc | 13

uncle tungsten 10 "...I wonder how the seasoned, competent few among them manage to stay in the game."

Are there any left in the game? They are difficult to spot.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 9 2021 20:53 utc | 14

Jackrabbit @ 11: Good post, damn shame we can't have something similar on MSM, instead of the usual "we must never forget", BS whitewashing, and hand-wringing that the MSM plies the public with on 9/11.

Posted by: vetinLA | Sep 9 2021 20:54 utc | 15

@8 I used a Zorki-3C for a number of years. Pre-digital. That's probably what messed my brain up and gave me dangerous socialist tendencies.

Posted by: dh | Sep 9 2021 20:57 utc | 16

NC @ 12; Cool, do say what you want, but, as for me, the "C" word discussion has ended. Find your "personal truth" as you will:)

Posted by: vetinLA | Sep 9 2021 20:59 utc | 17

Nothing too surprising, but Doug Bandow does a good job here of outlining the role of so-called think tanks in the war machine.

Virtually every foreign policy organization believes in the imperative of action. Such groups exist to urge the country forward to fulfill what earlier Americans called “manifest destiny” and more modern sorts with finer sensibilities call “leadership.” Other than a few outliers—the Cato and Quincy Institutes, some leftish groups, and a handful of foreign think tanks—the overwhelming, unrelenting demand is to “do something!” Special credit goes for those who come up with new wars to keep the U.S. military busy. While there are degrees of involvement, action is always required, and usually the more, and bloodier, the better....

Posted by: farm ecologist | Sep 9 2021 21:01 utc | 18

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Sep 9 2021 20:40 utc | 12

Yes, it is a bizarre situation unfolding and there must be debate about it somewhere, anywhere. It's got nothing to do with choice and everything to do with opportunistic state action and big Pharma locking in a permanent siphon hooked up to the public purse. Here in NSW (Australia) the Premier has announced that once the state hits 70% double-jabbed everything will open up——but only for the double-jabbed. I'm ok, I've had both doses mostly because I caved in to the moral pressure and am surrounded by colleagues and family who would ostracise me if they knew what I really thought. I'm satisfied that the risk to me from covid is low (lower than the flu was in another time) and that the vaccines can be no worse. Novel or not it's a seasonal respiratory illness: they've been around a while, they'll be with a good while yet. But it's the roll-out of a massive state surveillance apparatus that's got me concerned. The biopolitical implications are far-reaching and we won't ever get the toothpaste back in the tube. We now have a digital passport with all documents that we have to scan when we go ANYWHERE. If you don't have this you're nobody, no one, homo sacer. It's just the beginning of the denial of service to all those who display behaviours deemed inappropriate, subversive, etc etc. Not woke? you can't come in. Heute: vax macht frei. Morgen: KZs for the asocials.

Posted by: Patroklos | Sep 9 2021 21:13 utc | 19

Posted by: snake | Sep 9 2021 18:19 utc | 1

The propaganda piece is extraordinarily long - I assume you've read it, could you give us the Cliff's Notes?

Posted by: Thomas M. | Sep 9 2021 18:31 utc | 2

I've appreciated SWPRS content in the past - for example their media matrix, but I've always wondered who's really behind that organization. Their "about" page is pretty vague and as a curious reader, I always want to know if an organization has a hidden agenda of their own, despite exposing the hidden agendas of others.

Posted by: librul | Sep 9 2021 19:58 utc | 7

Of course the corporate media is making much more of what happened - and downplaying or hiding the FBI's (completely predictable based on past plots) involvement.

Since January 6, my main question is: What if the rioters DID manage to corner Pelosi? What would have happened? (just as an example since she's one of the most hated among Trump supporters - I'm not particularly a fan of hers either of course - and the Republican members of Congress/Senate whose names I don't recall at the moment that they were allegedly seeking out at the moment). Nobody ever seems to address that. Would they have had a calm conversation? Yelled back and forth? Or would violence (of which I don't necessarily disapprove - at least in a mordantly humorous way - in this case, lol) have ensued?


I wonder how Biden plans to enforce his new mandate. Seems like it'd take a whole new federal agency to me. This should be interesting.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Sep 9 2021 21:30 utc | 20

A new form of “influence government”, which uses sensitive personal data to craft campaigns aimed at altering behaviour has been “supercharged” by the rise of big tech firms, researchers have warned.

Here the Guardian describes how the British government uses online data collection to identify "at risk" individuals who would benefit from corrective online ads or even a visit from the man. Examples given in the article are fairly innocuous, but it's easy to predict how this could spiral into governments actively targeting propaganda to individuals who question official narratives. Of course, it will be for our own good...

Posted by: farm ecologist | Sep 9 2021 21:36 utc | 21

This is the new art of warfare. Train future leaders to become brain washed in your ideology then insert them in their countries’ governments that you want to destroy.
Inside coup d’etat. If Steve Brannon was involved you know it had sinister intentions.

Posted by: Bond | Sep 9 2021 21:42 utc | 22

It turned out to be herring farts. For 15 years Sweden thought enemy submarines were invading its territory

Posted by: urblintz | Sep 9 2021 21:45 utc | 23

Re: #2 Thomas M.

If Israel is one of the most vaccinated countries and has opened up its society to a much greater extent than most, then covid will circulate much more readily than in other countries. So much so that, even if the vaccine does reduce infections/transmission, there could still be more cases occurring compared to those other countries. Is there some way to falsify this interpretation?

I hear Israel also has the issue of travel between Israel and Palestine to deal with, the latter having a lower vaccination rate.

Posted by: Dave | Sep 9 2021 21:46 utc | 24

What does this mean in plain language please?

‘ We estimated the duration and determinants of antibody response after SARS-CoV-2 infection in the general population using representative data from 7,256 United Kingdom COVID-19 infection survey participants who had positive swab SARS-CoV-2 PCR tests from 26-April-2020 to 14-June-2021. A latent class model classified 24% of participants as ‘non-responders’ not developing anti-spike antibodies. These seronegative non-responders were older, had higher SARS-CoV-2 cycle threshold values during infection (i.e. lower viral burden), and less frequently reported any symptoms. Among those who seroconverted, using Bayesian linear mixed models, the estimated anti-spike IgG peak level was 7.3-fold higher than the level previously associated with 50% protection against reinfection, with higher peak levels in older participants and those of non-white ethnicity. The estimated anti-spike IgG half-life was 184 days, being longer in females and those of white ethnicity. We estimated antibody levels associated with protection against reinfection likely last 1.5-2 years on average, with levels associated with protection from severe infection present for several years. ‘

Posted by: DG | Sep 9 2021 21:48 utc | 25

@ fe 21
. . .this could spiral into governments actively targeting propaganda to individuals who question official narratives.

"Why, of course the people don't want war . . . But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.." ---Hermann Goering, 1946

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 9 2021 21:57 utc | 26

NEO presents a report that shines a warm light on the King Abdullah of Jordan and posits that he will be the primary mediator in any change in the decades old Israeli belligerence and divide and conquer game.

Significant efforts have also been made in the latter period by King Abdullah II to resolve the major Middle Eastern problem – the fate of the Palestinian state. To this end, the Jordanian monarch met with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi and Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas in Cairo on September 2. They discussed the revival of the Middle East peace process and the strengthening of the ceasefire with Israel and the “two-state solution”. They declared that the Palestinians have the right to an independent state with East Jerusalem as its capital, which Israel categorically opposes. The leaders of Egypt and Jordan also protested against the expansion of Israeli settlements and the demolition of Palestinian structures.

On August 29, King Abdullah II met with Israeli President Yitzhak Herzog in Amman to discuss “strategic issues” and build relations between the countries. In July, Israeli Prime Minister Bennett also paid an informal visit to King Abdullah II in Amman. And in February, Defense Minister Beni Ganz secretly went to Jordan. It was the first meeting between Abdullah II and Yitzhak Herzog in three years. The Israeli president’s informal visit to Amman was, according to regional media estimates, another sign of warming relations between Israel and Jordan, which have been deadlocked during the Netanyahu administration and further confirmed the Jordanian monarch’s growing “mediation potential” in recent times.

Its worth the minute or two to read but it is absent any analysis of what, if anything, has changed in Israel since Nuttyahoo's departure. This is the crux of it all really and can only be evidenced by a cessation of occupying illegal settlements, the liberation of Palestine to conduct its own affairs including shipping entry from the Mediterranean etc etc. If that independent, unfettered capacity is not returned to Palestine then nothing will really change.

The people in Lebanon can see what their fate is to be under Israel's world view as they gaze on Palestine and Gaza every day. Every day they spiral down to that end. If the King of Jordan can catalyze a transformation of this crushing descent, he will be a great leader. Good luck.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 9 2021 22:05 utc | 27

b .............................. please do consider what nemesis calling has suggested upstream - make covid threads and open threads separate.... these open threads get eaten up with a focus on covid and it does get tiring for many, but not all of us.... cheers and thank you for providing this valuable platform for discussion and learning...

Posted by: james | Sep 9 2021 22:18 utc | 28

@19 patroklos

Worrying doesn't help.

I am at home on leave and draining my sick time since learning I will have to submit to the medical therapeutic to keep my job. Watching horror movies, taking naps, organizing my house and other chores long-neglected. For breakfast this morning I gathered some tomatoes and zucchini from the garden, fried them up, and put them on top of some cheesy corn grits.

It was a good morning.

It is easy to digest this whole thing if you have hope that we are waking up from a nightmare and not descending into one. This overreach is just rearranging the proverbial deck chairs, as the economy restructuring is what is really at play.

Digital currency under a central, guiding-hand. Not to say we shouldn't be out in the streets right now wrt the passports, but it is pittance compared to digital control over a dissenter's wallet.

Hard to fathom why many can't see this next obvious step. And how to convince them of this evil? Well, just let them know that there may come a time again where their own politics are not reflected in the ruling government. At that moment, regret might set in, but too little, too late.

So tell them to at least stay outta the way of the crazy right-wingers on their way to the Capital with several lengths of rope on their belt.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Sep 9 2021 22:23 utc | 29

@ TM # 2
. . . most of [Israel's] ICU patients are fully vaccinated

San Diego County
Table 1. Summary of Cases by Vaccination Status since 1/1/2021

Fully Vaccinated
Total Cases 14,583
Hospitalizations 75
Deaths 25

Not Fully Vaccinated
Total Cases 150,321
Hospitalizations 6,436
Deaths 1,336 . . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 9 2021 22:46 utc | 30

Thanks for the open thread. Okay not going to talk about Marsha, Marsha, Marsha. So I agree with the rabbit above !! - 20 years from the hollywood extravaganza that started it all and 20 years later no real challenge to the "Official Story" of 911. Trillions of dollars, millions of lives and nations destroyed, including the United States and most everyone is like "move along, nothing to see here, move along."

Does anyone still believe in Lee Harvey Osama?

Posted by: gottlieb | Sep 9 2021 22:50 utc | 31

@karloff 3

A HREF="">Prison for Whistleblower

A former Treasury Department official, Edwards — whose decision to leak a trove of highly confidential government documents to BuzzFeed News prompted a massive investigation that exposed how dirty money moves through the global banking system and helped spur legislative action in the US and beyond — reported to Federal Prison Camp, Alderson, on Friday morning to begin her six-month sentence.

Posted by: donten | Sep 9 2021 23:20 utc | 32

How the mighty USA have fallen, Once it was 'Our man in Havana' and now its 'Our cricket in Havana'.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 9 2021 20:30 utc | 10

With all respect, you got it wrong, uncle. Those were ENEMY CRICKETS, not "our crickets". So instead "spy versus spy" we have "spy versus cricket". In the balance, you are right: selective plagues carried by locust, frogs etc. signify the wrath of Heavens and are portents of the fall to come and decline that already happened.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 9 2021 23:25 utc | 33

The waters have been so muddied, that I dont think anyone is going to know the truth about anything for a long, long time if ever. You pick a topic, I can almost guarantee that there are opposing sides to it, and there is literally no way to discern the truth. LITERALLY NO WAY TO DISCERN THE TRUTH ABOUT ALMOST EVERYTHING.

The train wreck waiting to happen that is the USA is all but certain now. When, where, by what means remains shrouded in mystery, but it is certain that the train will crash is some spectacular way. And if you are lucky, you may survive. After that one may be able to put into play some new ideas, different ways of living, etc.

This endless debate about what is, or what should be, is pointless. Other than some intellectual stimulation, what is the point? Honestly, is anyone here changing the world?

The world that I live in is not what I wish it was, but I want food, shelter, clothing and medicine when I am sick. I don't have a choice concerning the conditions I live in. So, I will do what I can to live in the environment that I am in, while causing the least amount of harm that I can, and hopefully my kamma will right itself one day.

I need a break from this, because it is not good for my kamma, or if you prefer, my state of mind.

Carry on my friends, it has been fun chatting, but there is more important work to be done.

Posted by: David F | Sep 9 2021 23:45 utc | 34

This article is about recent events in Buffalo, NY, but also provides a look at and many clues to what's very wrong within the entire Outlaw US Empire. While reading, one ought to think of what the fate would be for those who are so obviously corrupt if Buffalo were in China.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 9 2021 23:53 utc | 35

David F @Sep9 23:45 #34

What the F, David?

Every comment you make at moa is the same: you say we can't trust anything and then complain that you're disgusted with this place.

There are people at moa (and elsewhere) that have followed what's been going on for one, two, three, or more decades. They KNOW what is going on because they've paid attention and live it. And they share that knowledge here (and elsewhere).

Either shut up and learn, or take your whining someone else.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 10 2021 0:03 utc | 36

@30 Don Bacon

The only thing your linked table indicates is that even with vaccine-uptake at a moderate level in San Diego around April, the death-rate for vaccinated is only slightly better than for unvaccinated after this point, and that could be for a variety of other reasons beyond vaccination status.

Your shocking unvaccinated deaths stat of +1,300 means very little if San Diego was experiencing a ghastly surge of deaths right around the time the vaccines were first made available. In other words, because moderate uptake had not taken effect at that point, we can not say for certain one way or the other via your graph or this one here if vaccines had a substantial effect or not wrt to that surge of deaths.

Look deeper, Don.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Sep 10 2021 0:11 utc | 37

@36 Jackrabbit

I thought it was a very graceful leave-taking on David F's part - and by the way, I would wish him well on his path.

Please don't challenge him to engage with you. He wants to leave, let him be at peace with that. It can be a hard addiction to break, let's not make it any harder for anyone.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 10 2021 0:11 utc | 38

@ David F

If you can fight, fight. If you need a rest, rest. Take care of yourself to not crack.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Sep 10 2021 0:14 utc | 39

I just realized that September 9 is the date of Mao Zedong's death.

Luciana Bohne's brief tribute (Twitter, nice photo):

"9 September 1976: The Great Helmsman dies. Long live Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China."

Long live indeed. A great figure, a legend, whose living legacy today stirs our imagination and challenges our status quo continously.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 10 2021 0:22 utc | 40

At 3 above, I linked to Giraldi's latest but didn't offer any discussion of its content. Here's his basic argument:

"Based on my own experience, the often-cited fundamental evil of the intelligence community was seldom visible, though that appears to have changed somewhat since 9/11, to include the enhancement of the organization’s paramilitary role, the creation of secret prisons and the use of torture. Given the CIA’s presumed invincibility and the taint surrounding how it operates, it has frequently become low hanging fruit for those in government and the media who want to find someone to blame when things go wrong. The problem with the criticism often being levelled is that it is far too sweeping and generic."

He goes on to say the CIA has two parts mostly consisting of people like Clancy's Jack Ryan and such. He's correct, but he's also very wrong--for all the alleged good the analysts do, the Wet Men's deeds and millions of deaths, terror, destruction, and mayhem they've wrought since 1947 makes all that a complete non-sequitur, not to mention the one very real Regime Change they instigated in 1963 and prevented in 1968. Given the USA's supposed values, there's absolutely no place for a CIA, or an FBI of the sort it became under Hoover. If I could speak with Giraldi, I'd tell him his narrative completely contradicts his conclusion. The CIA continuously violates the US Constitution and is thus a rogue agency in need of disbanding, as are other agencies of the federal government. But as a former spook, I guess he just can't get up enough nerve to write what needs to be written.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 10 2021 0:27 utc | 41

Clarifying my comment @Sep10 0:03 #36:

@David F @Sep9 23:45 #34 says:

The train wreck waiting to happen that is the USA is all but certain now. When, where, by what means remains shrouded in mystery ...

[Emphasis is mine.]

This is just bullshit that is a clear attempt to defuse the growing anger.

WE KNOW who has undermined us. We KNOW who have betrayed us. Consider:

  • The "peace dividend" from the end of the Cold War went into the pocket of the US Military Industrial Complex and USA oligarchs as USA neocons and Israeli dickheads sought to remake conquer the Middle East and Bush gave wealthy people a big tax cut in the middle of a war.
  • No banker when to jail for the Global Financial Crisis that is estimated to have cost more than half of world GDP.
  • The war on whistle-blowers and journalists has virtually made it a crime to seek any accountability of what our leaders trumpet as a "democracy". Assange rots in jail as war criminals rank in millions and plan their next party.

The establishment sends bozos like Mr. F out for perception management when they F-up. And thus far it has worked: cover-your-ass BULLSHIT and misdirection has fooled been successful. But that is wearing thin.

They blame Fetanyl on China when WE KNOW CIA has controlled the Afghan poppy market for two decades. They blame the Afghan War failure on Biden when WE KNOW it was a bi-partisan effort. And they blame the "radical" progressive left for everything when WE KNOW that they warned that war and capitalist excess would not end well.

Now they claim that despite USA being one of the most capitalist countries on earth, ALL of our problems (they suggest) are because we are not capitalist enough, not cruel enough, not ... nazi. They are in the midst of forcing USA (and the West as a whole) to make a hard right, politically. A hard right that will exacerbate the Cold War (a war that they full believe that they can and will win) and exacerbate the police state that we live under.

I won't belabor the point. To say that the "means" of our demise is unknown/unknowable is total bullshit. People like Mr. F are the 'means' whereby we the trainwreck that Mr. F decries. Mr. F conveniently ignores that we've had one trainwreck after another for two decades thanks to him and his paymasters. IMO Mr. F knows exactly what he is doing - he is just another Hasbara clown, F'ing with us as always. We get a lot of them here and we should expect to get more as things fall apart.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 10 2021 0:49 utc | 42

Grieved @Sep10 0:11 #38

Mr. F has said he was leaving many times. Each time he did, he expressed disgust with moa.

I very much doubt that he's gone, but if he is, good riddance.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 10 2021 0:52 utc | 43

happy trails david f ..... as lao tzu says - the further you go, the less you know! i am fine with that! peace and good will to you..

Posted by: james | Sep 10 2021 0:54 utc | 44

@ jackrabbit... i wouldn't take anything too seriously, especially posters who you personally think are kind of sketchy.. it isn't worth it... stay positive! i have done all my preaching for one day now, lolol....

Posted by: james | Sep 10 2021 0:56 utc | 45

@2 Thomas M

re: Israel having highest rate

Sadly, that comparison is confounded by different testing rates. US in particular makes barely any effort to test people unless they're sick enough to check into a hospital. Now most people would actually take the time to go to a pharmacy and buy an at-home test, but wouldn't you know it, they're simply not available in the US now. Ever since the sweetheart deal negotiated by the Trump admin for the main manufacturer, Abbott, expired. From what I understand they basically guaranteed to buy their whole production run, starting late last year and into the first half of this year. So my inference is that it was not renewed by Biden admin so they rolled back production, around June or so. Now natural demand has materialized but it takes time to ramp back up on the production of the tests, which really would be like $2 each in any other country. $20 is perfectly fine for me, but nope, not good enough. Can't have any. Bleh.

Posted by: ptb | Sep 10 2021 1:06 utc | 46

Many say they can't understand Russia, and that would be very true if they only read Western media or very biased Cold War authors. Russian Conservatism: Managing Change under Permanent Revolution is an excellent book by Glenn Diesen and its beginnings can be read at this free preview, which will allow the reader to get a basic understanding of Russia and its fundamental philosophy. Unfortunately, I'm unable to copy/paste but at the outset of his Introduction Diesen informs us of a fact that oh so many miss when it comes to understanding Conservatism--its Collective, not individualistic--"the new must build upon the old" so, "the collective must be preserved" for that to occur on a consistent basis. As one reads, it becomes clear where the failure of modernity lies--it attempted to break its ties to the past.

Putin can be described as a Classic Conservative as he continuously stresses the connection between now and what came before--and the extreme importance of having and keeping that knowledge then passing it on to the next generation. The best indicator seen annually that sets Russia apart from most of the world is the Immortal Battalion and the impressive role it plays in Russian culture and society. I'd say China is also a Conservative nation despite its transformation by Mao and Chinese Socialism. I'll just add one more note. The segmentation of Russian history into five periods is followed by the excellent Russian historian Giorgi (George) Vernadsky, whose volumes ought to be found in any major university library, and who also wrote an abridged compilation I'll link to again.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 10 2021 1:07 utc | 47


We are about a day from the 20th anniversary of 9-11. My family and I lived through it. We had an apartment in Manhattan less than half a mile away. My brother had a meeting in WTC the day before. He still has the security badge he got for the visit. My dog had neurological problems about a year later and had to be put down - was it from the dust that was everywhere for over a week?

We see failure after failure and no accountability. Only faux populist politicians, fawning media, and asshat trolls that try to smooth it all over.

When do we get angry?


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 10 2021 1:13 utc | 48

I expressed no disgust with MOA. What I was trying to express is that I don't see any point in continuing debating any of this.

It is what it is, throw yourself in front of the train if you wish, you're not going to slow it down, or change its course.

But if it makes you feel better to suggest that I work for the powers that be, then all I can say is Muwahahahaha.


Posted by: David F | Sep 10 2021 1:13 utc | 49

Call it vanity, but I checked in to see the response to my post, hoping that I would see that someone thought that I had contributed something of value to the various conversations in the past.

So far, for the most part, apparently not. Meh.

Posted by: David F | Sep 10 2021 1:26 utc | 50

Posted by: David F | Sep 10 2021 1:13 utc | 49

I feel your pain. In the face of a Borg, what we do here is but mental masturbation. And perhaps some sense of community.

But your post and the comments it inspired reminds of the old days at a place like Daily Kos or something wherein folks would write Goodbye Cruel World posts and lament the helpless state of affairs in the world and at whatever blog they're suiciding from.

You're a person. You have something to say. And feel. Don't be a stranger.

Posted by: gottlieb | Sep 10 2021 1:28 utc | 51

@ NC 37
Your shocking unvaccinated deaths stat of +1,300 means very little if San Diego was experiencing a ghastly surge of deaths right around the time the vaccines were first made available.

That's a big "if" and inconsequential with its unexplicable "ghastly surge of deaths" to the main point: Vax is many orders of magnitude better than no vax. You can't shake that one.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 10 2021 1:32 utc | 52

Jackrabbit @42--

Thanks for saying what was needed. Giraldi's article I linked at 3 and discussed somewhat @41 seems to be of a CYA-type, and I see others popping up at RT. And yes, we have a very sophisticated cadre of trolls working here, most of which I don't bother engaging with.

There's an old Blues tune that IMO now applies: Never Make a (your) Move Too Soon. Imagine if all that destroyed evidence of bigtime financial crime had been moved the night before 911 thus exposing the genuine motive for that crime. Knowing that plus JFK, RFK, MLK, and all the contrived wars and terrorism makes it hard to live here. I wonder what Walter's doing.....

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 10 2021 1:39 utc | 53

Mr. F @Sep10 1:13 #49: I expressed no disgust with MOA.

Mr. F now resorts to spin.

When your chief contribution is "this is worthless, goodbye", repeated over and over, then you are expressing something close to disgust for the forum and/or the people in it.

I think Mr. F's disgust originates from a distaste for real discussion by knowledgeable people - available for anyone in the world to read. I suspect that he is PAID for expressing such distaste because (as I mentioned above) we've seen Hasbara play the same sort of mind games as Mr. F when he claims that the 'means' of our demise is unknowable - something he says repeatedly.

PS I said he'd be back, didn't I? LOL.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 10 2021 1:44 utc | 54

@49 You expect too much of people David F. MOA is just an internet forum. b is a good writer but he is not the Delphic oracle. People who post here have no special insight into the future. We are just speculating and airing our opinions, pontificating and, in my case, trying not to get into energy wasting arguments.

Taken overall it offers a fairly good consensus of where we are at this point in time. Don't take it too seriously. It's bad for the blood pressure..

Posted by: dh | Sep 10 2021 1:48 utc | 55

@52 Don Bacon

I beg to differ, sir.

When moderate uptake is in play (April), the difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated deaths is marginal at best. August, for example, is 5 (vaccinated) deaths vs. 34 (unvaccinated) deaths. It's something, but again, I would argue barely tells a story and in no way indicates being vaccinated is orders of magnitude better. Perhaps obese and diabetic shut-ins who do not seek vaccination for any other reason than laziness would skew the unvaccinated deaths towards the greater of the two.

You need better science and parity when looking at the two groups. You can not gather that via merely counting number of vaccines or number of deaths.

This is why vaccines are tested for years and why it is infinitely preferable to testing or parsing data ad hoc during a chaotic pandemic.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Sep 10 2021 1:51 utc | 56

Here's the transcript of today's meeting of the Russian Pobeda (Victory) Organising Committee where I learned of another post WW2 War Crime Trial I'd not know about before, the 1949 Khabarovsk War Crime Trials. Here's the relevant part:

"A case in point is the recent International Scientific and Practical Forum dedicated to the 1949 Khabarovsk War Crime Trials. The forum results will be presented later in the day by Prosecutor General of Russia Igor Krasnov.

"It was the Soviet investigators who collected irrefutable evidence that exposed the Japanese militarists as guilty of crimes against humanity, of preparing a bacteriological war."

I'd very much like to read Krasnov's presentation, but I don't have time to search now. I'm sure other barflies would like to know the results too. There's also more revealed at that meeting I don't have time to post.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 10 2021 2:01 utc | 57

@ NG 56
Oh come on -- the vax put a stop to the huge death rate for the un-vaxed, which the latter has continued. And your 5:34 "It's something" is absolutely true. That's 29X lives saved.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 10 2021 2:03 utc | 58

On Twitter I see a lot of white western women expressing "solidarity " with the upper middle class women demonstrating in Kabul.

I'm sure they are as concerned about the Afghan women in the villages, right? The ones at the mercy of warlords and Amerikastani bombs? Like these:

And they must be really worried at the plight of the women of Yemen and Gaza, right?


Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 10 2021 2:07 utc | 59

@ 57
The 'war crime against humanity' usually promoted by the winners over the losers is only a cruel joke because war is itself a crime, especially against its noncombatants.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 10 2021 2:08 utc | 60

@ Jackrabbit | Sep 10 2021 1:13 utc | 48.. thanks for the personal story.. i get it... anger is sometimes an appropriate response, but most of the time if we understood the other person, we wouldn't do it... what if the person on the other end has mental health issues?? does it make sense to engage in some way that adds to others pain?? i think that is kind of what you are saying - please don't add to my pain... i get that... i just think sometimes it is better off not saying anything - and this for a person such as myself who will mouth off on a dime!

Anger: Wisdom for Cooling the Flames Thich Nhat Hanh this is a beautiful book that tells the story early in the book of a couple where they aren't getting along and not talking with one another... the story breaks your heart when you realize what's at play... i highly recommend it... that's my small offering...

Posted by: james | Sep 10 2021 2:13 utc | 61

@41 karlof1

I read Giraldi's piece this evening, and it's a stretch for sure, although his view is always of value. But reading his characterization of the CIA as a lesser force in the nation is not persuasive.

I mean, sure, in each individual context, there can be a point. But in general, we've seen how the CIA can shoehorn a president into a policy and we've seen how that agency can collaborate with Mossad to kill a president. Etc...

I tend to think that the CIA, that "monster" as it has been called, is what runs the country - as the murder squad for capitalism - and this is what we're up against.

As Giraldi points out, the criminals are running the country - but I tend to think he underestimates the degree of mafia-level (and much greater) criminality that really runs the country, simply overlain in most cases with a Yale veneer of urbanity.

I wonder if, as you suggest, he can't summon the will to challenge that veneer, or if he's blind to it, invested in it to a degree that prevents him from peeling it back to see what's underneath?


In a way, the distinction doesn't matter compared with the real question of how to destroy the CIA. We know a President can't do it. It can only take a political party to change this country. You may have been the first one here to suggest such a thing. I'm on board with the idea - I can see nothing else.


By the way, before I leave this - did you see the 3-hour conversation on Consortium News largely between Pepe Escobar and Scott Ritter? Ritter says an important thing towards the very end, namely that the CIA has a huge army of mercenaries under its direct command, and after Afghanistan it's going to be looking for enemies against which to put those fighters to work.

Great discussion:
CN Live! S3E10 AFGHANISTAN: The 20-Year Disaster

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 10 2021 2:14 utc | 62

james @Sep10 2:13 #61

Sorry, your sensitivity lesson is not appropriate in this case.

The contentiousness of Mr. F's comment @Sep10 1:13 #49 shows that he is no snowflake. And the bullshit SPIN of his "defense" (which I find offensive) should make you at least somewhat distrustful of the intent of his prior messaging. Once again, that messaging is essentially this: we can't know anything, this place is useless, goodbye; repeated again and again.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 10 2021 2:30 utc | 63

karlof1 #35

events in Buffalo, NY

Yep. Corrupt candidates and judges need to be prosecuted but under the USA system of injustice BIG money installs BAD politicians and they install BAD judges. If the electorate dares to buck the system BIG money will either buy or epstein the politicians, as in the 'fraud squad' - or murder them.

India Walton is absolutely right though, organised people will defeat organised money if the pressure is on. Good luck to her team and campaign.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 10 2021 3:04 utc | 64

@60 Don

You are really misunderstanding what is going on there.

what you are looking for with death rates as they pertain to vaccination status is what happens after you reach a moderate vaccine-uptake level.

In this case, in San Diego, it was probably in March/April whereby people got the 2-dose moderna/pfizer which takes roughly two months to administer properly. So, if the vaccines emerged in late December, you would need to be in March at the earliest for decent uptake levels.

Now, once you have that, then you can compare death rates between the vaccinated and the unvaxxed. And if you will notice on this graph, you get a low death rate after moderate uptake in March. It is from this point that you can adequately compare vaccinated deaths to unvaccinated. And, as I said before, the difference is modest at best.

If you are looking at as to if the vaccines were responsible for the comedown of death rates in March/April, keep in mind that covid death rates have been surging and falling (2x) before without vaccines, so it is poor-deduction to think that the vaccines were responsible for the comedown in death rate earlier this year in San Diego.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Sep 10 2021 3:05 utc | 65

Thomas Frank: How Liberals Use COVID To SMEAR Working Class Americans

Posted by: Joe | Sep 10 2021 3:05 utc | 66

Russian patience at a breaking point?

Lavrov Says Greater Idlib Agreement Was Not Fulfilled By Turkey As More Airstrikes Hit The Region

So what have the Turks been doing in the two years since the Erdogan and Putin agreed that Turkey would control the terrorists (after Erdogan had reneged on an earlier agreement!)? Well, apparently they've been pressuring Jihadi groups to join together to form a more effective fighting force:

Five Of Turkey’s Largest Proxies In Syria Unify In New Coalition:

More than 15,000 fighters will operate under the command of the new coalition in the Turkish-occupied parts of the northern al-Hasakah countryside, the northern Raqqa countryside, the eastern Aleppo countryside and the northern Aleppo countryside.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 10 2021 3:07 utc | 67

Tom_Q_Collins.. @ 20..
I wonder how Biden plans to enforce his new mandate. Seems like it'd take a whole new federal agency to me. This should be interesting.
<=== Enforcement is easy.. msm explains any corporation with 100 employees must require vaccination including updates as a condition of initial or continued employment. presumably the vaccination dates and data will be on the payroll returns corporations must file? The fines per UVE are likely to be substantial.

Government action to require vaccination raises 4th amendment (part of Bill of Rights) questions? The 4th amendment says "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable search and seizures, shall not be violated .. ? Is requiring a person to be vaccinated a seizure, blackmail or just one more negative impact of privately owned federalism installed operating as a prison system housing 9 billion people in one of the 256 different global nation states?

farm econlogist @ 21 the description of British government use of online data collection to id "at risk" individuals.. tracks into 4th amendment concerns(just above).. humanity is at risk of private party involvement with governments that control human behaviors.

Tom_Q_Collins.. @ 20.. and Don Bacon @ 26
Tom propaganda has a theoretical basis article takes some time to read because it provides the basis for explaining how to recognize, digest, and deal with propaganda.. I will as you request try to outline it. but I cannot repeat the great examples the article provides to teach how to recognize and deal with propaganda.

1. Aesthetic judgement <=is different from experience which adapts frameworks in national character.
2. propaganda confirms or inspires, by its discourse and fiction <=the product of propaganda, is a real consciousness of value opinion
3. The task of propaganda is to persuade in ways that produce spontaneous consensual acceptance.
4. propaganda concerns persuasion on thoughts and imaginable ideas <=not agreement(as in a contract)
5. propaganda <= is managed by a deep (environmentally attained) rhetoric ( delivered in a proper context to an audience willing to entertain its message)..
6. propaganda consist of a set of macro structures (viewpoints and modes)<=which make persuasion possible
7. A picture(image) can depict any object,<= but it is the deep rhetoric that makes persuasion possible
8. Propaganda exhibits a concrete mechanism.. hidden(embedded) in its narrative fiction.
9. A fundamental requirement <= the audience must accept the (premise of the )fiction..
10. propaganda cannot convince a bomb victim that the bombers are good guys.

Are the political systems of the nation states under private directorship, ownership and private global management?

Posted by: snake | Sep 10 2021 3:10 utc | 68

Hi folks, it's jonku here. Remember me?

Just a follow up to karlof1 @ 41, about "the Wet Men's deeds" (CIA).

My opinion follows.

The CIA is composed of members of a white-collar, Ivy League class who follow their leaders. Here is an interesting in-depth analysis of who those leaders are.

The Pilgrims Society: A Study Of The Anglo-American Establishment; Rockefeller, Mellon, Luce, Rothschild, Cecil, Windsor, The Federal Reserve, WWII, The CIA And So Much More

A quick look shows me other links:

Donald Trump, Pilgrims Society Operative

The Pilgrims Society has for over 113 years stood at the pinnacle of the American halls of power and remains a deep unknown to all but a few outsiders. In a sense it has always existed in that it's sponsored by the British Royal family, and the warmongering British have been careful to maintain influence circles here, the first being in 1643 with the founding of the Ancient Heraldic and Chivalric Order of Albion.

Patriots for Truth
When you spot a Pilgrim whose name needs to be called out because it helps connect today’s current crimes to those criminals of the past, send them in and we will TAKE AIM.

Posted by: jonku | Sep 10 2021 3:25 utc | 69

snake #6
re: I wonder how Biden plans to enforce his new mandate.

In 1901 a deadly smallpox epidemic tore through the Northeast, prompting the Boston and Cambridge boards of health to order the vaccination of all residents.

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 10 2021 3:37 utc | 70

snake #68
re: The task of propaganda is to persuade in ways that produce spontaneous consensual acceptance.

A form of sales?
In one of my lives I dabbled in direct sales. Worked for an experienced salesman. In his office, we were chatting, he held up his coffee cup and proclaimed "I could sell this to anyone." That reminds me of time-share salespeople who are expert at this. We warned a friend of ours about succumbing to a time-share in Mexico. Didn't work, she bit (and got burned).

So we could think of the establishment selling us not a time-share, but a war-share, protecting our freedom and keeping us safe. . . ."Find a need and fill it" -- an old salesman saying.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 10 2021 3:50 utc | 71

jackrabbit #42

Nailed it with fine prose. And the disempowerment sucks and I ignore it and many other diversions here.

karlof1 re Giraldi. I assume that if he named the beast as it is he would alienate the last of his drinking/dining buddies from the 'mob' and is afraid of being alone.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 10 2021 4:14 utc | 72

Biswapriya Purkayast #59

Thank you for that link to Anand Gopal at the New Yorker.

That was so desperately sad and enraging. Frequently I express relief to neighbours that the war has ended and they have no idea of it at all and just mouth platitudes from their media programming about the fate of the women and girls with the Taliban. When I tell them of the utter murderous vulgarity of the war over the past 40 years they cannot - will not - believe me.

Revolutionary rage is when you see a world gone wrong and a people unaware and unquestioning of what their future might be. Submission is fatal to the spirit.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 10 2021 5:09 utc | 73

Reuters is reporting that Biden and Xi talked for 90 minutes on Thursday

U.S. President Joe Biden and Chinese leader Xi Jinping spoke for 90 minutes in their first talks in seven months on Thursday, discussing the need to avoid letting competition between the world's two largest economies veer into conflict.

If we aren't already in conflict, where are we?

Below is Xinhuanet's reporting of the talk

In a phone conversation with his U.S. counterpart, Joseph R. Biden, Xi suggested that on the basis of respecting each other's core concerns and properly managing differences, the two sides continue with contact and dialogue, and advance coordination and cooperation on climate change, epidemic prevention and control, economic recovery as well as major international and regional issues.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 10 2021 5:22 utc | 74

@ 63 jackrabbit... i think what you've been unable to pick up is i've been distrustful all along! but i am happy to be proven wrong too and happy to go along with others too for the most part.. i do agree with the thought that what people say on these forums isn't worth getting worked up about almost all the time... with more nuanced players, the principle still remains the same...

Posted by: james | Sep 10 2021 5:27 utc | 75

What will this years UNGA bring?

UNITED NATIONS, Sept. 9 (Xinhua) -- President of the 75th session of the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA), Volkan Bozkir, said on Thursday that 83 heads of state are expected to attend the 76th session of the UN General Assembly (UNGA 76), which opens on Sept. 14.

"To date, the heads of 83 states have personally announced their intention to attend, 26 have applied for a recorded performance," Bozkir said at his final press conference in his capacity as the UNGA president.

Those who will participate in person include one vice president, 43 heads of government, three deputy prime ministers and 23 foreign ministers, Bozkir added.

"We have a lot of people, leaders who have the intention to come here. Of course, we also limited the number of people who will come into the building. Because the accompanying delegations are larger than the expectations from time to time, so there will be only 1+6 all together (for each delegation)," said the UNGA president.

The first day of the high-level General Debate of the UNGA 76 will be Sept. 21. It will conclude on Sept. 27.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 10 2021 5:31 utc | 76

psychohistorian 74

China vs US will be interesting to watch. China is holding its enemy close. US cannot move without breaking its economy. China's move when oz and canada started abusing it was to stop buying from them and buy from the US. It punished the barking puppies and got a firmer grip on uncle joe's economy.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 10 2021 6:19 utc | 77

@Dave 24: "even if the vaccine does reduce infections/transmission, there could still be more cases occurring compared to those other countries. Is there some way to falsify this interpretation?"

There is a nice chart in that article by the Financial Times that shows that the vaccines haven't reduced infections/transmission at all (same infection rate in vaccinated/unvaccinated).

Interesting times ahead.

Posted by: e72 | Sep 10 2021 6:40 utc | 78

@Grieved, et al, 62

As karlof pointed out, Giraldi basically left entirely unmentioned the black-ops side of the CIA; likely because he knows it's unwise for him to engage in any sort of speculation or mention of such groups, because literally any sharing of knowledge by him will likely lead to his complete ruin and possible incarceration. So keeping quiet is the best means to protect himself.

What Giraldi, were he so inclined, would like to say is that the black ops side of things is a large group of nested organizations divided quite clearly according to political affiliations: some groups serve the oil industry-associated pols, some the military, some Wall Street, some Dems, some the Rethugs, some Silicon Valley. CIA regularly engages in corporate espionage--that was revealed back in mid-90s/early-00s--and as with everything else in US Government it is no less susceptible to the influence of money, as '63 and '68 amply showed.

Among those dark, nested groupings, there are independent operators largely unknown by anyone other than their handlers, parent groups that manage many smaller groups, and allied groups that coordinate their actions on consensus. The one feature they all share is a carefully guarded anonymity and protection from accountability that is enforced all the way up to the highest levels of government.

However, Giraldi's larger point still implicitly holds here, albeit in a less direct way than he explicitly states: such dark groups are formed, supported, and dissolved based on political orders from people "above" them. What is significantly different, however, is that the people "above" the analyst section of the CIA must hold White House credentials, and while that's largely true for the dark groups, there is no reason to suppose that the personnel who work on behalf of someone like Rethuglican John D. Negroponte--the guy who set up all those Reagan-era Central American death squads--suddenly dissolve and "retire" upon Negroponte's recusal from government due to a lost election.

Those groups remain available for Negroponte to call back into action as he wishes, regardless if he is now currently serving in the White House or not--and the proof is of course that when Obama, Hillary, and Biden wanted to enforce the coup in Honduras, they sent down Negroponte to set all the dominoes in place and make sure that no errant do-gooders could re-establish the elected leader down there.

Now, these operations have been going on for over 50 years, with new groups set up to achieve new objectives with each new administration. Just imagine how many dormant groups are out there, and how few of them ever come into direct contact with each other. And each one of those groups has someone well-connected, up at the very top--like John Negroponte, for instance--who has enough money and connections to persuade key personnel in the FBI, CIA, The Pentagon, DC/local police, who have you, to look the other way.

These dark-ops groups managed to do just this in '63, and again in '68--where the victim was literally shot on live TV, and they still managed to persuade the viewing public that no, there was no coverup, the report was correct, the problem was not with the evidence but with the public's own damned lying eyes.

The Watergate break-in was, in fact, a remarkable instance where these dark-ops groups exposed and prosecuted one of their own, had them sent off to prison and publicly vilified, and then by the Reagan era "rehabilitated" them and brought them back into the public fold to serve as propagandists and in other roles.

So there's 50 years of crud in that system, and while truth-be-told most of these dark ops sorts probably don't live to a ripe old age (i.e.: Barry Seal), there are some who do (E. Howard Hunt) because they work themselves up to the top of the food chain and deal directly with the oligarchs behind the scenes--think John Brennan and Avril Haines (and E. Howard Hunt). Those sorts are able to maintain networks which owe them personal loyalty, some of whom are dark operatives who do their work outside the law. Consequently there are now (in contrast to 1947) an awful lot of "dormant" groups who continue to maintain their networks of agents, working for people who were once official CIA but now no longer are, and who are able to operate outside the limits of the law because of past favors and political protection at the very top of the chain.

But per Giraldi's larger point: these groups are contingent upon political protection at the very top, and cannot conduct their business without such protections. They do not operate according to their own inclination, but are an extension of the hidden and often not-so-hidden (#Russiagate, Brennan, Obama, WMDs, dancing Israelis, etc) political forces within America's one-party system. It is not the dark-ops groups who run things, but those who protect their anonymity, and who direct and finance their activities.

Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Sep 10 2021 7:03 utc | 79

Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Sep 10 2021 7:03 utc | 78

Here is some more on 9/11 and the dancing Shlomos. Yes the US has become a one-party system, with two wings of the same party, the war party.

A system Australia and the UK tries to emulate.

Posted by: Paul | Sep 10 2021 8:59 utc | 80

Egg Throwing White Liberals Are the True Face of the Democrat Party

Posted by: Dogon Priest | Sep 10 2021 13:06 utc | 81

"Let's not talk about Covid in this thread", some people are thinking.


It would seem that the same Wuhan lab that is implicated in the SARS pandemic
was also experimenting with MERS-covid viruses.

Anything else?...Ebola?...Pox?...Nipah?...?...?...?

Former FDA head and current Pfizer board member Scott Gottlieb reacted to further revelations this week regarding the funding of dangerous gain of function research by Anthony Fauci, noting that a previously unknown fact has emerged that lab tampering was undertaken on MERS-like coronaviruses, which are even deadlier than their SARS-like relatives.

Is this news? Or gain-of-function-news, that is, hype?

Posted by: librul | Sep 10 2021 13:16 utc | 82

Caitlin Johnstone has, until now, disappointed a lot of people in the posture she has taken towards the pandemic - she took the position of waiting for the evidence. Well, Caitlin took a long time but she has now published an article in RT that strongly opposes the "dangerously authoritarian policy of vaccine passports".

Caitlin distinguishes Covid-19 from the authoritarian measures that have been taken but her article amounts to a condemnation of "Vaccine Passports", compulsion and mandates:

Caitlin Johnstone: Australia’s not a free country. State surveillance and autocracy are rife because we have no bill of rights

"The Australian government has been on the receiving end of more and more criticism for its Covid response lately, not just domestically but from overseas.

"There’s a lot to criticize, from soldiers patrolling state borders and policing the streets of Sydney, to people being arrested for merely posting about lockdown protests on social media, to police accessing QR-tracing information and firing projectile weapons at lockdown protesters, to news broadcasters naming and shaming Covid patients who violate isolation orders, to the frequently ineffective hotel quarantine system for travellers being replaced with purpose-built quarantine facilities and Orwellian surveillance apps. The states of both Victoria and New South Wales have begun moving toward reopening after the Delta variant proved zero-Covid goals unattainable even amid strict lockdowns, but will do so by adding Australia to the growing list of nations that have implemented the dangerously authoritarian policy of vaccine passports."

Posted by: ADKC | Sep 10 2021 13:17 utc | 83

Giraldi is ex-CIA. There is no such thing as ex-CIA. I read him too. Anything he says is what CIA wants you to believe. Yes, you. They know who reads him.

Posted by: Oldhippie | Sep 10 2021 13:56 utc | 84

No one mentions the big thing: gas prices in Europe exploded to all time highs. It faces energy cruch. Electricity is up, carbon is up, coal is up, inflation is up.

Some factories may have to temporary close if the energy crunch continues.

Posted by: Passer by | Sep 10 2021 14:03 utc | 85

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Sep 10 2021 3:05 utc | 65

And if you will notice on this graph, you get a low death rate after moderate uptake in March. It is from this point that you can adequately compare vaccinated deaths to unvaccinated. And, as I said before, the difference is modest at best.

I agree with your premise (which I made bold). So where is the data that supports your conclusion that "the difference is modest at best"?

Posted by: jinn | Sep 10 2021 14:19 utc | 86

regarding the recent death of Yevgeny Zinichev Minister of Emergency Situations of the Russian Federation, has anyone heard anymore information about what happened? Supposedly he jumped into a river to help save a cameraman who had fallen during a drill in the far north and they both drowned. It seems very, very suspicious. As minister of Emergency Situations he would be a prime target for assassination. I've been checking online and there just doesnt seem to be any information about what happened, beyond the very brief official release.

Posted by: Kadath | Sep 10 2021 14:38 utc | 87

Grieved @ 40, in my faith it is the day of death which is remembered for saints, so it is fitting to remember it for China's leader as there are many who are not in the 'official register' who may be considered that for unknown good reasons.

And speaking of 'fitting', it is that for the state to be concerned about the economy. Where that, however, conflicts with people's perceptions about their health and is actually in opposition to healthful practices, the people shall judge, to coin a phrase, and become conscientious objectors if that is needed.

My mask is my passport.

Posted by: juliania | Sep 10 2021 14:56 utc | 88

psychohistorian @ 74, I am glad to hear of a significantly extended phone call between Xi and Biden. Perhaps it will lead to a respectful understanding between the two leaders in the areas of practical importance -- as hopefully that meeting of Biden with Putin has done. We certainly need less grandstanding on the part of the US.

Also, Russia's far north must be a dangerous and unpredictable place. I see nothing sinister in the report of the minister's courageous action where extreme conditions had caused the photographer's calamity. Greater love hath no man than this...

Posted by: juliania | Sep 10 2021 15:08 utc | 89

Don, the Constitution its based upon a theory of checks and balances. To avoid another George III, the Founding Fathers split responsibility among executive, legislature and courts, and between states and the federal government. The precedent you cite is not precedent for overweening autocratic decision-making by the federal executive. One doesn't know how today's Supreme Court will react ti the issue at hand, but we all need to keep in mind that the Constitution is complex, and citing caselaw is actually an art.

Posted by: zakukommander | Sep 10 2021 15:11 utc | 90

Don @70, of course.

Posted by: zakukommander | Sep 10 2021 15:12 utc | 91

Reuters has another bold faced EXCLUSIVE
as its main headline.

I brought attention to different "exclusive" yesterday
by Reuters. As other barflies rightly pointed out here,
that is what they do - sell bullshit.

@Posted by: librul | Sep 9 2021 19:58 utc | 7

Like yesterday the subtext sells an allegation as if it is a known truth.
Yesterday the Jan 6 encroachment was "the violent Jan 6 insurrection".

Today, Reuters tell us corporations are afraid - "be very afraid".
Of what? The subtext tells you: a "Russian hacking operation".

The MSM formula is to repeat an allegation a million times
and then drop any uncertainty and state things as known fact.

Main headline currently at Reuters:
EXCLUSIVE Wide-ranging SolarWinds probe sparks fear in Corporate America


Sept 10 (Reuters) - A U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission investigation into the SolarWinds Russian hacking operation has dozens of corporate executives fearful information unearthed in the expanding probe will expose them to liability, according to six people familiar with the inquiry.

Don't forget that Reuters has a 30-year veteran of the CIA
on the board of directors of its parent company: Thomson Reuters.

But none of this is news to you if you are a regular at MoA.

wonder for how long and how often
Reuters has chosen the EXCLUSIVE
attention grabber on their main page

Posted by: librul | Sep 10 2021 15:29 utc | 92

@ zak 90
re: my 70
Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.

It's not okay to yell 'fire' in an auditorium, and it's not okay to walk around infecting people with a fatal disease. That was the Supremes' decision in 1905, and there's no reason to dump it.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 10 2021 15:34 utc | 93

@karlofi 3

"When it becomes a crime to reveal a crime, you know that it is the criminals who are actually in charge."

This apply more to china that arrest journalist or Putin that don't like when you say that in dombass russian soldiers dies. In Syria, shall you critisized Bashar, you fingernails would be a long gone memory. In talibland, you head will be collected for the fun of manual working.
But you live in the west, so you are free to write all the absurd insanity I read every day.
Enjoy !

Posted by: murgen23 | Sep 10 2021 15:37 utc | 94

I was reading in the Israel times, a couple weeks ago, that the Israeli health minister , who keeps data on the virus , stated that those in Israel that have recovered from the virus, have a 1% chance of getting it again. He also said that about 50% of new cases were from pre vaxed people. needless to say the Health ministers data is now - not publicly seen as it is Too Honest.

I had the virus and it developed just like Moon described - severe sinus infection that takes out your sense of taste and smell and then it moves to your lungs. I started right off the bat with bactrim and gargling w/ salt water and when it hit the lungs my doc came over , he confirmed the start of pneumonia and he started me on butt injectable anti biotics, a steroid, nebulizer meds, vitamins,and a couple other related meds. My wife did all the jabs - {shes' not a nurse} and it worked out well . I'm 70 and never thought I would die. But I don't live in the states so I had much more freedom to call my own shots.

Posted by: GMC | Sep 10 2021 15:40 utc | 95


Perhaps I was not clear enough. I said that the precedent that allowed a state to act was not enough to act as precedent for an executive to act nationally. Even if Covid were equivalent to Smallpox, which It is not, there has been no decision on whether the Federal Government can decide for the states, or whether Congressional action rather than executive order is in order. Yelling fire in a theater, a problem of free speech and immediate deadly harm, is not in point. I can guarantee you no justice if the Supreme Court would find the equivalence you have. Laymen should refrain from citing precedent too freely, because as I said it’s an art. BTW, You’re a thoughtful poster, generally, and I enjoy your contributions.

Posted by: Zakukommander | Sep 10 2021 15:56 utc | 96

Posted by: Kadath | Sep 10 2021 14:38 utc | 86

No assassination attempt, but with anything Russian and as RT chief Simonyan said, how quick the human trash tries to organize a gopak -a dance- over his bones.

They were filming the great north around Norilsk for implementing rescue operations since he was the minister in charge, his post before him was occupied by Shoigu the present defense minister and possible Putin successor.

But after his death rumors started, trying to soil a heroic deed, it seems the filming was finished so the minister and the camera man flew a helicopter to the Putorana Plateau, a fantastic place about 150 Kms. away from Norilsk. The cameraman slipped at the edge of a water fall and the minister trying to hold him went down too. Since any of our ministers would not come down their luxury vehicles so as not to soil their shoes, the western public has a hard time understanding how such an important functionary would risk his life trying to save a plain mortal, and then again, anything that comes from Russia if it is positive has to be soiled and devalued, the local press doubted the official story and put its accent in the fact that he was a former security guard of Putin etc. so as to belittle the man. Peace be upon them.

Take a look at the Putorana Plateau:

Posted by: Paco | Sep 10 2021 16:17 utc | 97

ToivoS | Sep 9 2021 19:59 utc | 8
Havana syndrome may be a good example of mass hysteria in a social class. It may however have an origin grounded in reality.
There can be very heavy spraying of pesticides around the compounds. Fogging the area even.
We figured out how bad that was in the 60's just like burning garbage in a military base. Duh!

Posted by: David G Horsman | Sep 10 2021 16:19 utc | 98

"I hope this thread doesn't evolve into another one."
David F | Sep 9 2021 19:42 utc | 5
I heartily agree. b should just have a weekly covid open thread and then he can delete or move comments as he deems fit.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Sep 10 2021 16:26 utc | 99

Zak @96
I can guarantee you no justice if the Supreme Court would find the equivalence you have.

You're saying -- "guaranteeing" -- that while a governor has standing for enacting such a law, the president lacks standing?. . ."The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state" excludes such a power by the nation? Note that the 1905 case referred to a local epidemic while the current pandemic is national in scope. . .I'm saying that the same logic applies in both cases.

from the web..
“Standing” . . . means that a party has alleged a sufficient legal interest and injury to participate in the case. . . .Certainly there is a national interest in a pandemic.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 10 2021 16:39 utc | 100

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