Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 17, 2021

How Jake Sullivan Screwed Up U.S. Relations With France

After reporters in a news room have written up a story it goes to editors who check it, provide a headline and often also rewrite the opening paragraph(s). The piece then  gets published.

That process at times leads to headlines and/or opening paragraphs which contradict the rest of the story. This can happen because the editor is in a rush and has not had the time to really digest a story. At other times it happens because the editor lets his personal political leaning, or a special preference for an involved person, shine through.

This seems to be the case with a New York Times story about the U.S. induced Australian cancelling of a deal to buy French submarines.

The United States says it gave France only a few hours’ notice of defense deal that Paris called a ‘knife in the back.’
By Michael D. Shear and Roger Cohen

The United States acknowledged on Thursday that it only gave France a few hours’ notice of its deal to provide Australia with nuclear-powered submarines, a move that French officials have denounced as a major betrayal by one of its closest allies.

After the headline and the first paragraph any reader will assume that the U.S. indeed informed France a few hours before the deal became public.

That however is an outright lie as paragraph 11 and 12 of the very same piece provide:

Philippe Étienne, the French ambassador to the United States and the host of the party, said on Thursday that he learned about the deal from news reports, followed by a call from Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser to Mr. Biden.

A senior American official said that the Biden administration had made efforts to inform the French government about the president’s announcement earlier Wednesday morning, but had been unable to schedule the discussions with their French counterparts before the news reports appeared online.

The U.S. did not say "it gave France only a few hours’ notice". The U.S. did not acknowledge "on Thursday that it only gave France a few hours’ notice of its deal".

The U.S. did the opposite of what the headline and opening graph of the NYT story claim.

"A senior American official" acknowledged that the National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan screwed up and informed France only after Politico published the first report on the deal on Wednesday September 15 at 8:55 am.

Sullivan in fact cowardly avoided to tell France about the deal as a separate NYT piece by Roger Cohen provides:

France said it had not been consulted on the deal. “We heard about it yesterday,” Ms. Parly told RFI radio.

The Biden administration said it had not told French leaders beforehand, because it was clear that they would be unhappy with the deal.

The administration decided that it was up to Australia to choose whether to tell Paris, said a U.S. official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to address the matter publicly.

Jake Sullivan screwed up. He was too coward to tell the French about the truck that would soon hit them. It was in fact likely he who 'leaked' the news to Politico before it was made official.

Lets remember that Sullivan's most recent big task - the coordination of the State and Defense Departments during the retreat from Afghanistan - also turned into a gigantic screw up.

France is deeply disappointed, not only about the deal itself, but about how it was handled. It will seek revenge for that betrayal.

Sullivan's involvement in the Australia deal has an interesting side note.

The Lowy Institute is ...

... at the centre of Australia’s foreign policy and national security debates. Every prime minister and foreign minister since 2003, when the Institute was founded, has spoken at the Lowy Institute. Our annual poll of Australian public opinion is cited around the world, our experts are sought out by the Australian media for commentary on breaking events, and our research – including our flagship Lowy Institute Papers, published by Penguin – helps set the national agenda.

As one of its 'experts' the Lowy Institute lists one Jake Sullivan as its "2017 Telstra Distinguished International Fellow".


Sullivan has only held one speech for the institute and wrote one lazy article for its website. One wonders how much he was paid for that 'fellow' gig. Whatever that was it made sure that some Australian insiders  have his number on speed dial.

The speech, held in June 2017, is to a large part about Trump's Asia policies. But it has significant bits about Sullivan's view on China and Australia:

Amidst this discussion of the U.S.-China relationship, let’s not forget that where China is headed at home remains a very real question mark.
And let’s also not forget the role of the rest of the region in responding to China’s rise. Do they essentially accommodate, or do they seek to work together, drawing in the United States to provide a durable counterweight?
I expect over time that our friends and partners in the region will become increasingly concerned about the possibility of a 19th-century-style sphere of influence in Asia, in which China slowly nudges the United States out and consolidates its power and influence in a way that will ultimately force regional countries to supplicate.
The erosion of our alliances would strike a brutal blow against American leadership in Asia. We should be doubling down on our alliances, making them more dynamic to face the threats and challenges of the 21st century.
Now, I should emphasize that this question of the future of a values-based community in Asia, doesn’t turn on U.S. policy alone. It also turns on whether our allies — our partners who share values of openness, democracy, and human rights — countries like Australia and Japan and Korea — step up and lead in defence of these values. I hope we will see more of that in the period ahead.
America has a remarkable capacity for reinvention and self-correction. There is still a strong foundation of support, in both political parties, for an active, engaged, dynamic role in the Asia-Pacific. And, I believe, there is still a strong demand signal in the region.

We’ve been in tight spots before. And we’ve come out the other side stronger and more dynamic. I believe that we will do so again.

And when we do, I know that we can continue to count on a vibrant alliance with Australia, working with confidence and common purpose toward a shared future.

The now announced increased deployments of U.S. military assets to Australia fits right into Sullivan's plans.

Australia will pay for the 'privilege' of thereby becoming a Chinese missile target by buying overpriced U.S. weapons.

That is how the world, from the view of U.S. empire minions like Sullivan, is supposed to be.

Posted by b on September 17, 2021 at 18:04 UTC | Permalink

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VK @105:

Well, the key to context is this:

"...said at the Lithuania-hosted Baltic Military Conference on Friday."

He's just pampering the host by saying what they always say -- France is not the intended audience.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Sep 18 2021 14:15 utc | 101

@106 “ AU, 2040...NOT in a hurry.”

Absolutely not in a hurry.

Indeed, plenty of time to slow-cook that goose.

These submarines are never going to be built.

The USA doesn’t have until 2020 to Get Its War On with China, so if Scott Morrison wants nuclear subs to fight shoulder to shoulder with Uncle Sam then he needs them Real Soon Now, waiting another 20 years is going to be a day late and a dollar short.

Sco-Mo has no intention of ever building these nuclear subs.

He just has to pretend he does in order to cover his arse while he does what he really wants to do: cancel the French contract and then use the $90billion that this frees up for some pork-barrelling.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 18 2021 14:16 utc | 102

Sorry, meant to say that the USA doesn’t have until 2040 to start a war with China.

If the USA dithers that long then it’s all over before a shot can be fired: militarily the Chinese will be so far ahead of the USA it would be like putting a wheelchair-bound geriatric into the ring with Mike Tyson and calling that “boxing”

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 18 2021 14:21 utc | 103

Related to the last thread:

US-UK-Australia submarine deal is a dangerous joke which will only worsen geopolitical crisis with China, by Scott Ritter

Australia struggles to keep its current six diesel-powered submarines operational; it now wants to build eight nuclear-powered submarines, despite having neither the trained manpower nor the nuclear infrastructure necessary.

Like I said then, the problem isn't that nuclear submarines aren't awesome, but that time, quantity and operation are as essential in warfare as the toy itself. Australia has just lost at least one decade with this new deal, and it will only produce eight submarines. Effectiveness has an expiring date, it is unlikely eight nuclear submarines by 2040 will tilt the balance in favor of the capitalists against the socialists.


@ Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Sep 18 2021 14:15 utc | 108

But he said it in the context of NATO as a whole, not the Baltics in particular. Nobody expects the Baltic States to single-handedly hold off Russia, not even the Baltics themselves.

The USA has absolute control of NATO, which has bases around the entire European Peninsula. There's no doubt France and Germany would be directly involved in an Eastern European conflict, under American command.

And this is not Ancient Rome: we live in the age of the internet, and there's no doubt the French are aware of the conference and its results as we speak.

Posted by: vk | Sep 18 2021 14:25 utc | 104

Andrei Martyanov‘S take on SCO and Iran

Posted by: Kooshy | Sep 18 2021 14:36 utc | 105

However this practice was/is not limited to "A senior American official" and the National Security Advisor but was/is endemic in the coercive social relations self-designated as "The United States of America" which include but are not limited to "Australia" and "The United Kingdom", and why these coercive relations require to be transcended.

@Posted by: MagdaTam | Sep 18 2021 9:40 utc | 89

Yeah...the "gift" of the Western Sahara to Marocco by former President Trump comes to mind...
Yet, Spain never went to the extent of recalling its ambassadors to the US and Morocco...Instead, the former official of the WTO acting as Foreign Minister aat the time swallowed such milestone, along the uneducated "Adonis" acting as PM...Indeed they coninute swallowing milestones, and making the Spanish citnzenry swallow as well, while in the US they openly discuss this....

Posted by: Hannelore G. | Sep 18 2021 14:44 utc | 106

@82 jackrabbit “ Australians think it's all about future submarines when its actually about basing arrangements NOW.”

That argument doesn’t fly. Morrison has no need to distract away from new basing agreements involving US troops.

Even on a slow news day such an announcement would be met by yawns all round.

Morrison is a craven nonentity. It’s NOT about “future submarines” at all. It is all about canning the current project because it’s too expensive but doing that WITHOUT starting a domestic political fight he can’t win.

Because if he just stands up and tears up that contract then that means the end for shipbuilding in Adelaide, and the South Australian Premier would slow-cook Scott Morrison over an open-fire over that.

Hence this pantomime; it keeps the South Australians quiet on the giddy promise of NUCLEAR submarines built right there in Adelaide.

Until the next election is over, when it becomes “so sorry, the feasibility study is out and.... Adelaide isn’t viable. Who knew, hey?”

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 18 2021 14:45 utc | 107

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 18 2021 14:21 utc | 110

It seems to me, in retrospect, considering we could not defeat China in Korea in the early 50s, it's pretty silly to think we are going to defeat or "contain" them by our "cleverness" now. This is not strategic thinking, this is relying on foreign policy cliches which were not much to speak of even back then. The tables have turned. The sooner we can get some people in power in "the West" who accept that, the sooner we can start to move on, begin repairing the damage done.

I don't see ANYBODY at the moment who fills that bill. Not one. No Putins handy in the West.

In any case if we want to compete with them, we are going to have to learn to compete again, it's been a while since anybody in power here had to, and the poor here have better things to do.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 18 2021 14:51 utc | 108

vk @ 111:

You are not from Europe, are you? We've been hearing that shit for at least 20 years.
He is telling the Balts that Baltic lives matter, at a conference very few people care about. We all, including the Balts, know they don't, but it's a nice thing to say.

Paris and Berlin won't go to war with Russia. First of all because they know Russia is no threat to them. Second because Russia is Russia; Russia beat Hitler, Russia beat Napoleon. They don't like to talk about it, but they remember.

What's new here is the US move on France, and the French reaction. Recalling your ambassador is very harsh in diplomacy. The next step is closing your embassy, then you go to war. (Which i don't think the French will. /irony)

I wouldn't say it's the last nail in the coffin for NATO, that would be premature, but France just pointed to the lid and looked at Biden.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Sep 18 2021 15:30 utc | 109

@ Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Sep 18 2021 15:30 utc | 116

But the timing is important. Repetition over a long period of time is also important.

It's one thing to see one random American officer tell Europe should focus on Russia; it's a completely different thing when various American officers, over a long period of time and in different circumstances, tell the same thing. The first case may be an opinion, the second case is a doctrine or even an ideology.

Obviously, I'm not saying NATO will wage a hot war against Russia. For starters, it would quickly lose. However, the USA can use this doctrine to tie down the European Peninsula's resources to the aim of containing Russia, while it mobilizes the Pacific/Asian provinces to do the same against China. That would mean no more French defense contracts with Australia, or South Korea, let alone Japan, etc. etc., while the Pentagon keeps the American MIC afloat by scooping up those long term, multi-billionaire contracts with whatever provinces it wants to. This is an Imperial Preference system with extra steps.

Posted by: vk | Sep 18 2021 15:52 utc | 110

@Canadian Cents 10

Some one should explain to The' Tool that Canada neither buys nor sells nuclear submarines. I am not exactly sure how he expects this to help him in the election race as Canadians are vastly against US militarism. What Canada definitely will get if the Conservatives get elected is the failed F-35. That will help pay the Republican party back for all the support they have given him in this election race. But of course Americans don't interfere in other countries elections.

Posted by: BraveNewWorld | Sep 18 2021 16:22 utc | 111

vk @117:

I think where we differ is that I see no timing at all, he is just saying what they always say, the Russia menace is NATO'S raison d'être; has been since the get go. Maybe he stressed it a bit more than usual because it had been lost in the south China sea for a while, but now was found again.

And I don't see how repeating the same message again and again for decades would make it stronger -- the brain is built to disregard threats that turn out not to be real.

The news is the new alliance: US + two landmass aircraft carriers. Are they dumping NATO? After all, they did just back down in Ukraine.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Sep 18 2021 16:24 utc | 112

Oh, wait, it´s France reacalling its US ambassador to the US...and terror in the streets restarts...Or is it Macron, in the middle of the melé, trying to cover for the increasing presure from the streets and incoming sanitaire crisis provoked by the 300.000 unvaccinated sanitaires which will go off service out of his mandate?

Posted by: Hannelore G. | Sep 18 2021 16:37 utc | 113

I think we have to follow up why Usa suddenly have to sell their subs. We know that Us have put unfriendly threats many times "if you not with us you.." and i read that the aussis quite recently was informed specificly. We don't know if there are plans for Australia because of this. But under Trump the suddenly buy of weapons was because he wanted more commitment. I think Biden is very weak and the weapons lobby may have been the driver to sell subs. Apperently will the aussis wait a long time for the subs and then they come they are outdated and possibly without the custumized waepons. I don't see the threat to China but if The aussis got some bigger and advanced sub with same capability as Usa that could have meant more selfsufficient Australia. The falling empier blocks it's allies instead of winning sales by fair competion.

Posted by: Sveno | Sep 18 2021 16:56 utc | 114

Yeah, Right @Sep18 14:45 #113

I don't know Morrison and Australian politics very well. But I do know that asshat Empire managers like to keep the people in the dark and employ all manner of tricks to accomplish that.

And no one can explain why Australia (as well as USA) added insult to injury by (supposedly) snubbing France. Either AUSUK was all hastily put together - meaning that it's half-baked - or it was weeks in the making and they deliberately thumbed their nose at France. Why would they do that to a key ally?

When you see nonsense, you search for a reason to explain it.

Even if USA and UK want to help Morrison because China tensions have made Australia more important on the geopolitical chessboard, why deliberately insult France - except to spark outrage that shrouds what you're really up to. (Shrouds it from the people, not from China.)

Whether from France or USA, the subs are a nothing-burger. As several commenters here have pointed out: they will not be ready in time for any conflict with China.

The real substance is USA increasing it's presence in Australia and adding missiles to that presence. How many Australians are aware of that? How much is Australian media talking about that? I guess, very few and very little.

We will see what happens with France in the coming months. I'm thinking that the French will have forgotten the whole thing in 6 months while there will have been no protests from the Australians about the deepening military relationship with USA.

Crikey! Whether British, Australian, American, or Canadian, the people are constantly played so that the Empire gets a free hand in whatever they want to do.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 18 2021 17:23 utc | 115

@ Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Sep 18 2021 16:24 utc | 118

Then why did the USA start to talk about an "Asian NATO" just after the new submarine deal with Australia was struck?

The implication seems to be very clear to me: the American Empire is not the space of Western Civilization, but a single, concrete Empire, which should be compartmentalized and administrated as a cohesive unit, from a determined center (capita), which is, of course, the USA proper (Washington, D.C.). It is not the role of France - an Eastern province - to deal with Western affairs, let alone profiting from it in the process.

Posted by: vk | Sep 18 2021 17:29 utc | 116

Following my comment @ 123

Europe’s U.S. Lackey Parliament in Unhinged Attack on Russia

Some 74 percent of Europe’s 669 members of parliament (MEPs) voted on Thursday to approve a report calling for a staggering array of hostile moves towards Russia.

I don't think the Baltics command 74% of the European Parliament...

Posted by: vk | Sep 18 2021 18:02 utc | 117

vk @123:

I don't quite get what you mean. The restarting of the quad was about countering China. A lot of hassle for a few subs, don't you think?

I don't contest your view on empire. But that's not new either. Remember: all western European countries on the main land were occupied by the US during the last war.

What's new is France taking a stand and the US forming a new 'alliance'. (A de facto retreat compared to NATO+.)

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Sep 18 2021 18:03 utc | 118

@ Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Sep 18 2021 18:03 utc | 125

The only novelty is that the Empire is shrinking, therefore the jackpot is smaller, which results in a conflict between two conceptions of the American Empire within the main Western European countries.

The contradictions within the West are getting more acute.

Posted by: vk | Sep 18 2021 18:07 utc | 119

This was handled badly, in a way that was predictably offensive to an important ally. That ought to cause many allies to wonder about the US, not just this one that was offended this time.

The offense has obscured the other questions.

First, transfer of nuclear submarine technology has never before been allowed. Once we allow it, others will demand it. We can expect South Korea and Taiwan to want it, and Israel to want a gift of a number of such subs. Do we want to go down the road of sharing our nuclear subs?

Second, this is a huge expenditure for Australia, that cannot have a proportional benefit to Australia. They can't defend themselves from China. They can only be safeguarded by alliance. Is this the best route for them to ensure defense by the US? Perhaps they ought to look instead at getting US submarine bases there, or Marines, or even a carrier like in Japan. There are many less expensive and more effective ways for them to safeguard themselves against China.

This deal has serious problems for both sides, AND it was badly done.

Posted by: Mark Thomason | Sep 18 2021 18:29 utc | 120

vk @126:

As was shown by Brexit. And before that the confrontation between the US and Germany over Greece. (Which the Germans won.)

What I ponder is whether the US is abandoning continental Europe. Right now it kind of looks that way.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Sep 18 2021 18:29 utc | 121

And as per Françoise does that mean they are trying to wipe out European weapon industry? Sounds logical, but logic can be deceptive...

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Sep 18 2021 18:33 utc | 122

Jackrabbit | Sep 18 2021 17:23 utc | 122

Apparently the talks started about eighteen months ago. As Françoise says, this is to ruin the French Arms industry, in favour of the US and UK.

With upwards of $4 trillion sunk in the briny and US arms not being known for high performance, it is "necessary" to eliminate competition. Mainly EU competition, as Russian arms are also a rival, but only for "secondary" markets.

I wouldn't put it past Macron to "save" the France by getting crumbs from the table. (As françoise said)

The question of the French elections; do the Banking cartels still want Macron, or will they choose Barnier?
Marie-le-Pen seems to have already got off to a bad start.
vk | Sep 18 2021 18:02 utc | 124

What I hope will happen is that the 500 million Europeans start to question the legitimacy of the EU Parliament.

OK, it pays well and the job is pretty secure, so they can be blackmailed individually. There is a noticible lack of leaders or alternative viewpoints, with the exception of Wallace and Claire Daly.

I like your idea of an US "Empire" with different "Raj's" (As Britain had in India). Effectively, the EU is being transferred to the relevant "EurCom" compound and forbidden to upset Pentagon planners in their dreams of electric sheep.

Posted by: Stonebird | Sep 18 2021 18:48 utc | 123

Jörgen Hassler | Sep 18 2021 18:33 utc | 130

If they can't buy it - fry it.

Posted by: Stonebird | Sep 18 2021 18:52 utc | 124

Going back to Karlof1's comment on why the Chinese are actually continuing their commerce with Australia; They know that "Scotty", will be up for election. They know that lockdowns have been brutal and enforced by declaring demonstrations "illegal".

So the population could be mentally separated from their marketing leader. There are several non-anglo groups that would be open to reacting with China reasonably. If only to keep their jobs going. Income depends on export to China? So why screw that up?

ie. Brisbane is the biggest Greek city outside Greece, there are many Chinese migrants who are already installed. Plus all the other immigrants. They can be considered Autralian, as their own futures are tied up in Australia. That doesn't mean that they have to take fools kindly.

China is aware of this and ultimately the Aussies will also realise that they actually need to continue commerce with a reliable partner.

If there is NOT a major war, then practical concerns will win. Money in the pocket is worth more than a 8 holes in the sea.

Posted by: Stonebird | Sep 18 2021 19:33 utc | 125

Russian MSM is on a roll today. More crucial related information, this time from SputnikNews (International version):

Russia Possesses ‘Unbelievable Military Power’ After Transforming Forces, US General Says

"It s extremely important that we deal with Russia and China at the same time. [emphasis mine] ... Our whole focus is looking from the United States to Europe, but looking to the west: China is there, Russia is there. They are in South America, Africa and the Middle East. They have global capabilities," he said.

The Americans are decided to solve this once and for all. They're not willing to collapse a la Ancient Rome, too. They will gather and centralize all the resources of all of its provinces while it is still strong enough, probably in order to obliterate Russia-China in an all-out hot-nuclear world war. That's what general Hyten is implicating.

Posted by: vk | Sep 18 2021 20:16 utc | 126

Benjamin Haddad
Why is France so upset? Those pointing to the commercial deal are missing the point. The view in Paris is the US shaped an alliance in secret with two partners, undercutting France's entire Indo-Pacific strategy in the last decade. Why France was not brought in is inexplicable.

Point taken under cutting “France entire indo-pacific strategy” which amounts to nothing specially without US.

Posted by: Kooshy | Sep 18 2021 20:24 utc | 127

Maybe Australia will compensate France and Thales Group through a DigitalID contract. Please cast your net wider. Connect the dots...

France and Thales are owners of the Naval Group, a submarine manufacturer in France who lost the contract. Defence and digital security company Thales is a member of the Bilderberg group. It has been working with Gates Foundation and Rockefeller Foundation to promote a global digital citizen number, Digital ID, universal mobile-digital identity, COVID certificate & passes... Its Digital driver's license projects (also known as mobile driver's licenses) gathered momentum in countries including the U$A, UK, Australia, and the Netherlands. Please checkout Thales Group’s website.

In the words of the Thales expert:
“It gets really exciting when you realise that the wallet can host both digitalised identity and payment credentials.”

The International Money Oligarchy are aware that the Ponzi scheme of finance will soon crash and are trying to transition us to a neo-feudal society, in which they can continue to hold most of the power and wealth, and control the populace through DigitalID.

The cancellation of the contract seems to be due to urgency of moving Empire’s forces to Australia. Empire’s multinationals are more important that nations. Macron has elections coming in the next year. Is he just acting?

What is the end game of the Financial Empire?

Posted by: Max | Sep 18 2021 20:34 utc | 128

France strikes back ! An event "dedicated to American culture" cancelled in Tarbes.

« Tarbes: one dead and two seriously injured in a brawl between "bikers" on the sidelines of the "American Saloon "

One person died and at least two others were seriously injured this Saturday during a brawl that broke out in Tarbes (Hautes-Pyrénées), on the sidelines of the American Saloon, an event dedicated to American culture, a police source told Le Figaro.

(...) The show was consequently cancelled and the site evacuated by the police. »

From Le Figaro, 09.18.2021

Posted by: Leuk | Sep 18 2021 21:01 utc | 129

The British role in this seems to me extremely minor. It's just Johnson wanting to show off the global role that he claims, and secondly, Australia is a British colony, so he doesn't want to be left out of the discussion. The French have done the same over Lebanon. Macron intervened, because it had been French, and allowing others to take the lead wouldn't do.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 18 2021 21:02 utc | 130

@120 Jorgen Hassler:
"What I ponder is whether the US is abandoning continental Europe. Right now it kind of looks that way."

Tom: It's looking that way to me, too. A few days back I floated an impression I have, started back when Brexit first hit, that the U.S. strategy might be to "circle the wagons" of the Anglosphere, given the worsening conditions / degree of control over the rest of the world.

The velocity of all these changes is jarring, isn't it? These strategic moves are happening really fast.

What I'm interested to see that a lot of the U.S.' cards are now on the table and its trajectory is starting to what everyone else is going to do. India and Germany in particular have some big decisions to make.

@134 vk: re: Gen Hyten's assertion that Russia is how Hyper-Powerful and Omnipotent:

The MIC allows no stone to go un-turned in the search for more budget. It's their game. If a fire-cracker got lit off in a sand-lot they'd use it to justify budget increases.

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Sep 18 2021 21:26 utc | 131

If the USA wishes to bring forward its 'war' with China and accelerate the bellicose blather it can establish lots of bases in Oz and even loan them a submarine 'for training purposes'. Voila! it has established a deflection target to sacrifice first and I guess hambrains like Milley think they are clever setting up the Ozzies for the first punch and saving all those murican lives.

The Ozzies have simply been set up for a flogging - at their own expense - as is the way with UKUSA. (We can add terms like 'brothel led recovery' to our lexicon but never mention Cuba or the Philippines.)

I doubt there will be a war with China. Perhaps some initial skirmishes and petit battles between a dopey ally whose coordinates are either given away to China or easily determined by technical means. Then there will be 'serious' negotiations to stand down, reverent ceremonies for the brave sailors etc. Whatever way one looks at this the ham in this UK-AUS-USA sandwich is the Oz team. Recall the murderous setup by the Brits at Gallipoli that the Ozzies still revere as a valiant war on behalf of empire.

Suckers for more Murdoch led delusional nationalism and punishment it seems.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 18 2021 21:45 utc | 132

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Sep 18 2021 21:26 utc | 139

Biden may seem to be abandoning European policy, simply because there isn't a problem. There's no real threat of Russia invading western Europe, only in the paranoid minds of the Baltics. US policy has other things to do, even if just as mad.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 18 2021 21:46 utc | 133

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 18 2021 21:45 utc | 140

I doubt too there will be a war with China. It's just hard for Washington to admit that they're no longer top dog, free to decide what they want with the future of the world.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 18 2021 21:59 utc | 134

Gen Hyten is actually a realist, and one of the few voices of reason in the land of disney.

I quoted him here the other day, saying that war with Russia and China must never be allowed to happen

He was among the first serious voices to acknowledge the gravity of the Russian breakthroughs in hypersonics, and rightly so, as I have discussed in some depth.

Posted by: Gordog | Sep 18 2021 22:22 utc | 135

Stonebird @Sep18 18:48 #131

Apparently the talks started about eighteen months ago.


As Françoise says, this is to ruin the French Arms industry ...

I'm not sure that it ruins the French arms industry. Nor am I sure that USA subs will ever be delivered.

What I am sure of is that USA will base more troops in Australia and will "develop" missile tech with Australia - which I would guess is likely to mean development of missile sites for deployment of USA missiles.

Jorgen Hassler @120: What I ponder is whether the US is abandoning continental Europe.
Tom Pfotzer @Sep18 21:26 #139: It's looking that way to me, too.

I just don't see the reason to antagonize the French or other Europeans.

What's a more plausible aim: mislead the Australian people regarding the nature of Austrialian-USA military agreements or abandon continental Europe?


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 18 2021 22:25 utc | 136

The French should have known that the Submarine Contract would be cancelled, because of Naval Groups intransigence in negotiations over the last 18 months, and their inability to deliver on what they promised. As others have noted, Australia barely manages to crew three of the six boats we have, with no chance of crewing more and bigger boats. Cancelling the contract allows Morrison to put tens of billions in the pork barrel for the next election. Adelaide will get the work of upgrading the Collins class for the next 20 years, and that will help election chances in SA.

Posted by: Cossack | Sep 18 2021 22:34 utc | 137

Which is result from purpose of news media is narrative control, not information.

They make no money from informing are financed by interested parties.
Why even refine them in regard to discussion of principal - they don't merit serious discussion. When one who like to apply the Costanza method, they publish a bit of truth only lying by omission. Case study in psychpathy.

Posted by: jared | Sep 18 2021 23:04 utc | 138

Face it, the US will never go to war with a peer adversary ever again. It does not, in spite of it's chest beating and pr, have the military capability to fight and win any such war. Attacking Iran would be a disaster for america. China would be many times worse...and forget Russia. It's all over now except the crying and pooping in their depends. This "deal" was meant to make america seem "tough", but it is laughable and the whole world knows it. Actually, not very different from murdering children with a drone to take some criticism off rapist biden's botched retreat from reality in Afghanistan. French pride was the murdered child this time. Seriously, they didn't think about it. Dont expect intelligent moves from desperate and frighted elites circling the bowl.

Posted by: nook | Sep 18 2021 23:05 utc | 139

@144 JackRabbit said:

"What's a more plausible aim: mislead the Australian people regarding the nature of Austrialian-USA military agreements or abandon continental Europe?"

Tom replied:
It's more plausible to mislead the Australian people. I agree, to a point, with your more-pragmatic assessment.
However, when you start to think "what's next for the Empire?", and you consider the economics - e.g. what is the economic future of EU, and what's the economic future (the moves available) to the U.S....then the complexion of the model starts to change / mutate.

If one also adds in the reduction in leverage available to U.S. on the financial/monetary front, and the reduction of leverage on the military front (the coercive tools used when simple economics doesn't get you where you're going)...the model seems to change some, JackRabbit.

As I said, Germany and India have some big decisions to make. They have to model the out-years, the trends, where the locus of technological change, and where the potential for wealth creation (not money, but "wealth" - big difference)..once you begin considering the econ forces at work, you can project where the politics will go.

One major perspective diff between me and many of the MOA posters, is that I explain / interpret politics and military action through the lens of economics. Where is the wealth created?

I'm pretty sure Germany and India are evaluating the situation largely through that lens, and I'm also suggesting (not adamant..just suggesting, at this point of the presentation of cards on the table...suggesting that the West, led by the U.S. is assessing the situation in that manner, as well.

The old tools of statecraft / manipulation are getting long in the tooth. The West needs a new basis / mechanism for wealth extraction (on behalf of the elite) because the old ones are mostly out of gas.

This implies a major re-think of how the West - and also some of the edge-nations (Germany and India) assess that same question.

Economics may end up being the trump card in the model, JackRabbit.

and while I'm speaking to you, JackRabbit, allow me to attempt to frame what appears to be the big difference in perspective between us: I see the Empire consisting of lots of factions; it's not a monolith. Various factions have very different postures / gaming strategies, and that's why they don't behave coherently/uniformly.

You _seem_ - and here, please offer rebuttal if I've interpreted your perspective inaccurately - you _seem_ to think that the Empire is a top-down, coherent monolith.

I say "it's not". Many of the rules of the game have changed, that those rule-changes affect different factions...differently, and so they in-fight for control. Who wins is anybody's guess right now, but I see a lot of in-fighting.

To Gordog @ 143, you said:

Gen Hyten is a realist, and "He was among the first serious voices to acknowledge the gravity of the Russian breakthroughs in hypersonics, and rightly so, as I have discussed in some depth."

I hope you are right. I worry that Gen. Hyten will respond like the military nearly always does, e.g. "let's build better bombs". That's a simplistic rendition of their perspective, but it may be largely accurate.

I'll repeat: the situation has mutated. It's not a military, nor even a financial game of warfare. It is now a raw, simple, excruciating game of economic warfare. The Chinese are way ahead, and the Russians have managed to chop off the U.S. military response mechanism.

Do I write off the U.S. military? Not likely. You don't get to be an Empire by being stupid, or weak, or unwise. These guys have been around the block a time or two. And while Gordog informs us of the advances - which are deliberately publicized - of the Russians, he's not talking nearly so much about what the U.S. has that it's not publicizing. (no dig on you, Gordog - but it bears considering, right?).

One interesting fact is that, here in the U.S., there is some daylight appearing between the military's posture and the Elite's instructions to the Military. Witness Gen. Milley's dust-up; he is accused of undermining Trump, and telling the Chinese not to worry over-much about President Trump's ... um, over-extension of bluster.

This is more daylight among factions, JackRabbit. Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall at cocktail hour in some lonely and quiet bar somewhere when the military brass and next-level-downs get together and swap views on the political scene?

When I used the expression "excruciating econ warfare", I'm referring to what it takes to mold a culture into an economic fighting machine. In the West, we've atrophied on a number of dimensions. We're not really ready to conduct intense, long-term, systematic, well-directed econ warfare. This is the advice, JackRabbit, that I'm pretty sure H. Kissinger _ did not_ offer up, even to the end. We are not well-prepared to conduct econ warfare as a culture, and H. Kissinger, as student of all things Chinese, should have noticed.

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Sep 18 2021 23:06 utc | 140

@ Posted by: vk | Sep 18 2021 13:55 utc | 104

I question if US in in fact the "brains" of the operation. More a resource.

Posted by: jared | Sep 18 2021 23:22 utc | 141

The land area of Oz is roughly the same as that of the 48 States of the continental USA. I'd like Scum Mo, Jack Sullivan, or someone with more than half a brain, to explain the mechanism by which Oz will deploy 12 or 8 submarines to combat an attack and invasion by one of the Great Satan's Artificial/Imaginary Enemies?

Unless the new subs come with wheels, wings or caterpillar tracks PLUS Klingon Cloaking Devices, their value in defending Oz, in the event of an hostile invasion would seem to be disappointingly low.
No wonder the Chinese are pointing at Oz and laughing their asses off.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 18 2021 23:25 utc | 142

Laguerre 138

Amongst a certain class in Australia Britain still rules. Canada NZ Australia head of state is the monarch of England. When UK ignored the US and Joined the Chinese bank some years back, Australia moved to join within hours of UK doing so. We are tied into the US through the five-eyes intel agreement, The English monarch is our head of state, and now with this alliance agreement we are tied militarily to the US and UK. And it will be an American that has overall command in this alliance.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 18 2021 23:28 utc | 143

@ Posted by: nook | Sep 18 2021 23:05 utc | 147

They can't "win" a war
but they are capable of breaking stuff.
Sometimes that's enough.

As conventional means fail
the Anglo empire becomes more dangerous.

Posted by: jared | Sep 18 2021 23:29 utc | 144

How do the Chinese spell "SUCKERS!!!" and "Gullible" and "Obedient"?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 18 2021 23:36 utc | 145

Hoarsewhisperer 150

Aside from bloody good diplomats as first line of defense, its a bit difficult to come up with a good military strategy.
Perhaps a small number of ICBMs behind those diplomats and not running around like we are the deputy sheriff of the world is the way to go. That is if we were ever to become an independent sovereign country.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 18 2021 23:38 utc | 146

It is becoming apparent that the world will not know peace while London/Washington are running the show.

Posted by: jared | Sep 18 2021 23:38 utc | 147

@ Jörgen Hassler

VK is from Brazil. In may he said the Nord Stream II would be cancelled and the Green would win elections in Germany in September 2021. Hahaha what a clown.

Posted by: Nick | Sep 18 2021 23:40 utc | 148

Excellent comment by Nook at 147! 👍

Posted by: Gordog | Sep 18 2021 23:45 utc | 149

Stonebird 133

For some reason you assume Australia is an independent country and that elected politicians who swear loyalty to a foreign monarch will act in the best interests of a country they do not swear loyalty to. On top of that, US controls our media and intel and with this alliance agreement I suspect US now controls our military, the leaders of which also view a foreign monarch as our head of state.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 18 2021 23:51 utc | 150

The U$A and Australia fought Japan together during the WWII.

“The US could potentially base strike assets there and do what it did in the early 1940s,” he added, in a reference to the US and Australia fighting Japan together during the second world war. “Technology changes a lot, but geography doesn’t change.”

Russia knows if China falls it is next. It will not stand by in a conflict. Vladimir Putin prepared Russia for conflicts, as he assumed the worst from the Empire. Russia has strong influence on Germany and India. “China remains Germany’s biggest trade partner for the 5th year.”

Where will we see real economic growth in the future? Bubbles will burst!

Will the Financial Empire transcend to the multipolar order & multilateralism without a war?

Posted by: Max | Sep 18 2021 23:55 utc | 151

@147 All true. Unfortunately this won't stop the weapons makers coming up with wonderful new innovations. They love the technology.

Posted by: dh | Sep 19 2021 0:02 utc | 152

A single modern attack submarine could run $4 billion or more (in U.S. dollars), not including the necessary supporting infrastructure — amounting to at least 10% of Australia’s annual defense budget. Brazil has been working on a nuclear submarine for more than a decade, with cost estimates topping $7 billion, and no end in sight.
What’s Beneath the Surface of Australia’s Decision to Build Nuclear-Powered Submarines

It does not make a great deal of sense to build a sub industry from scratch. It does make sense for the US arms majors if they are the ones building out the industry in Australia and I bet that will be the case.

Just the loss on the foreign exchange between the Australian dollar and the US dollar is astronomical in the purchases and investments needed. In addition is will take 20 years or more to start dropping boats in the water so inflation in itself will drive the costs out of the solar system.

One issue is that US shipyards are maxed out and are already experiencing long delays.
The Capacity of the Navy’s Shipyards to Maintain Its Submarines
This may be stopping them from buying boats straight away.

It looks like an investment that will be very hard on Australia's economy in the long term. I don't think the Chinese have anything to fear in the short term.

They appear to be choosing economic suicide over economic integration with the region which would provide peace and economic benefits for all. Again, the arms majors win by gaining another cash cow. Strategic tension is increased but the capacity to actually act is not greatly increased.

The whole thing seems mad in a world run by madmen. Situation normal and progressing.

Posted by: circumspect | Sep 19 2021 0:27 utc | 153

@ Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 18 2021 23:25 utc | 150

The goal may be not to win, but just to delay in order to give the USA proper more time and relative resources to then win.

This is not unprecedented: Estonia's military doctrine doesn't foresee any way of victory against Russia (its designated enemy), it just states that it would sacrifice its own people in some kind of trenches/guerrilla warfare so that the rest of Europe (presumably, Germany and France) can gain 1-2 hours.

Posted by: vk | Sep 19 2021 0:39 utc | 154

@ Posted by: Nick | Sep 18 2021 23:40 utc | 156


I remember stating that the Green Party was the USA's last ace in the hole in the NS-2 imbroglio, not that it would surely win and surely block it.

But I may well have bet on it. I like to bet on other countries' fates.

Posted by: vk | Sep 19 2021 0:40 utc | 155

B- Thanks so much your two exceptionally canny takes on the Australian-U.S.-French submarine imbroglio. You included quite a provocative selection of characters and quotes over two days.
For example, the "realist" political scientist John Mearsheimer ( b, those inverted commas really add nuance), who gets feted by the Australian establishment whilst telling them what their geopolitical duties are, or else. His leftist credentials have been well established (he wrote that bestseller on the Israel lobby) and because he is a "realist" even of the offensive variety he can say these things. That is the responsibility of "the realist" political scientist. He is an expert not an ideologue. This cannot be questioned.
Personally, I think he is an intellectual whore for the power elite with a polemics that is bleak, Manichean, unimaginative and uninspiring. Is he part of the coterie that advise the TeamBiden regime?
Advisers do covet power, and I guess they would say that's only "natural". In Saturday's instalment, b has fleshed out a prosaic miniature of Jake Sullivan, National Security Adviser, a former Rhodes scholar of 2000, State Department firmament and devotee of Hilary Clinton, who capitalised big time on his Obama administration adviser role. His Australian gig highlight was an address to the Lowy Institute, as the 2017 Telstra Distinguished International Fellow. His audience one could politely call the converted, so no there would be nothing but praise for his vacuous waffle: "values based community in Asia; our partners; U.S.'s remarkable ability for reinvention and self correction; double down; vibrant alliance" etc etc. These cozy little mantras are laughable, but only after you acknowledge their meaninglessness.
One word did ring bells though- nudge, as in "China slowly nudges U.S.". Cue Cass Sunstein! I suspect that the National Security Advisor is being advised by the Dem elites' favourite behavioural psychologist, Mr Nudge himself, Cass Sunstein.
What a cabal, what a politburo of flaccid Obama era intellectuals running the show, or attempting to. Unedifying, cowardly and rather precious.
But they want Australia as an Ally. Australia will comply whatever the cost. Australian P.M. Morrison now has something to swagger about, and that's worth the insult to France.
Poor fella, my country.
The Trump presidency was an interruption but now the hegemony of the Anglo elites has renewed its charter. This time it's an "alliance", with a requisite acronym.
In tumultuous geopolitical times, Thierry Meyssan's archives are worth revisiting:

Posted by: Australian lady | Sep 19 2021 0:42 utc | 156

@163 ''But I may well have bet on it. I like to bet on other countries' fates.''

You should at least do some research before opening your mouth to be a laughingstock. Like I said in may, the Greens won't have more than 14%. And in a week you will see. As I said the bourgeois press (Die welt, Focus)controlled by German big industry would destroy them. Happened in July with the whole plagium scandal involving the Green (candidate) leader, the neger comment, blablah.. Nord stream 2 will happen because Germany big capital want it. No matter if the US like it or not.
The whole Siemens , VW attacks by the US last decade was the red line for them.

Posted by: Nick | Sep 19 2021 1:25 utc | 157

Funny Biden and dude we're just hugging at g7 a few months ago. Comical.

Posted by: Dogon Priest | Sep 19 2021 1:32 utc | 158

Extraofficial opinion of the China on this issue came out:

GT Voice: Naïve Australia foots the bill for US gambit

Posted by: vk | Sep 19 2021 1:41 utc | 159

Tom Pfotzer @Sep18 23:06 #148:

I see the Empire consisting of lots of factions; it's not a monolith.... you _seem_ to think that the Empire is a top-down, coherent monolith.

I'm glad you brought this up. It's worthwhile for us (and others) to understand our different perspectives.

Although at times it may seem that I believe that the Empire is monolithic, I don't. I recognize that there are competing interests. I just believe that there's a pecking order for those interests and certain interests will reliably prevail on certain matters. So, it's not that there aren't "factions" it's just that "factions" is used as lazy device to throw up hands. I find that those who cite "factions" generally do so as a if to say "dead end": "factions" is used to defeat analysis and defeat reform because the power-dynamics are not given due weight.

Now, since I've had this conversation with others, I will anticipate that you may say that you don't use "factions" that way and that you recognize some sort of hierarchy of needs/power. But these are mutual exclusive. I find that those who use "factions" do so without thinking it through. They've heard about "factions" from others. And, these same people tend to believe the best-of-all-worlds, "democracy works!" bullshit. Former President Carter is among MANY independent pundits that have acknowledged that America doesn't have a working democracy. In 2014, Princeton researchers determined that USA is a plutocracy. It has been for quite some time.

We can see the futility of "factions" as an explanatory framework when we look at recent history. If there were really "factions" vying against each other then they would keep the worst instincts of other factions in check. They do not. Iraq War (based on a lie), Afghanistan War (four times longer than it should've been), and much more were made possible because certain interests have outsized power wrt matters of Empire. It's not difficult to recognize interests and the groups and individuals that are aligned with these interests.

But that's not all. There's another phenomenon that is vitally important to understanding how flawed is the "factions!" argument: controlled opposition.

Many of the "factions" that appear to vie for power actually AGREE on Empire. Obama's "Change You Can Believe In" was a lie. He served the Empire well and towards the end of his second term he admitted that he believed in "exceptionalism with every fiber of my being". That's USA Empire mantra: USA (and it's people) are the natural rules of the world because ... exceptionalism! Zionism and "rules based order" are closely associated with such magical thinking.

Bernie was not a real candidate in 2016 or 2020. While his followers were captivated by the sound and fury of this "democratic socialist", it signified nothing: 1) Bernie rolled over for the establishment candidate each time he ran, and 2) Bernie was virtually silent about the problems of Empire (wouldn't a socialist be expected to denounce the excessive expenditures of the 'Security State'?).

Lastly, Trump talked about 'America First' but governed as 'Empire First' (as any critic of Empire expected): dancing with the Saudis; assassinating Gen. Soleimani; embarrassing USA by backing Juan Guido's clown show; embarking on yet-another military buildup; lying to the American people about the severity of the pandemic virus; etc. His deluded followers look past these things because they are led to believe that Trump is a populist outsider when he is actually a craven insider and conman who simply forced his way to the head of the Tea Party parade (with a little help from his Empire-loving friends). I won't belabor the point but other politicians have also proven to be Empire devotees (like Hillary and Pelosi).



Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 19 2021 2:04 utc | 160

By the way, Hyten's opinion that the USA should be able to defeat Russia and China at the same time is the Trump doctrine (see the "Prompt Global Strike" concept report of 2016 or 2017). He's far from being a lone wolf in the Pentagon or the American political elites for that matter.

Posted by: vk | Sep 19 2021 2:10 utc | 161

Nick says at 165: 'The whole Siemens, VW attacks by the US last decade was the red line for them.

This is a good point, along with the rest of your comment. Germany's economy is no less than 50 percent exports. Just for reference, China is only 15 percent.

The continued prosperity of the German volk can only take so much self-sacrifice for the sake of the Ponzi Empire.

Japan was similarly asked to fall on its sword in a previous era, and dutifully did so.

But times have changed. Now it's every man for himself. Watching members of a lion pride fighting for a mouthful on a buffalo kill would be instructive. 😺

Posted by: Gordog | Sep 19 2021 2:12 utc | 162


And yet, they are mostly a danger to themselves, as history will show.

Posted by: Nook | Sep 19 2021 2:17 utc | 163

Françoise @Sep19 2:00 #169

Thanks. I read the article. France cites 18 months. Australia says that France knew that the contract was "in trouble." Neither of these statements tells us when serious negotiations between USA and Australia concerning a submarine project began.

However, as I perused SMH I found that my concerns regarding lack of media coverage is justified. I found nothing about USA's increased military presence and "missile development" (which seems more likely to be deployment).


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 19 2021 2:31 utc | 164

As long as the U$ dollar stays the reserve currency of the globe, NOTHING can change. All else is just rhetoric, and therapy bitching.

Posted by: vetinLA | Sep 19 2021 2:33 utc | 165


But it won't be American drug addicts s and welfare queens who come up with new weapons. That ship has sailed. A new world has come.

Posted by: Nook | Sep 19 2021 2:38 utc | 166

Jackrabbit 174

Various media reports around June 2020. Nothing about US subs back then but 250 billion for weapons ect including the nuke missiles. there are many more billions somewhere around that time for bases. Those billions for bases were I think now related to naval bases for US nuclear powered and nuclear armed ships and subs. Something like what is based in Japan but on a larger scale. come to think of it those naval bases are very close, too close to China in the event of any sort of war.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 19 2021 2:55 utc | 167


Information provided in the SMH article suggests that France's charge that the Australian government lied for 18-months refers to Australia's not being forthright about the degree to which Australia was unhappy with the contract and/or France's performance under the contract.

France claims that their full trust in Australia as a partner/ally was not returned in kind. They are making a 'bad faith' argument that will be the basis for seeking damages.

The SMH article contains no specific allegation that USA and Australia conspired for 18-months.

Note: The SMH article describes a meeting between France and Australia in June or July of 2021. Australia appears to have made it clear at that meeting that the contract was in jeopardy and the French apparently promised to address Australia's concerns.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 19 2021 2:55 utc | 168

It is quite clear that the Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia have absolutely no importance in current European politics. Nothing. No importance.

Why should one even bring these insignificant nations up at this time? Well, I guess they are important for one reason: because the US is willing to engage in nuclear war to "protect" them.

It is totally insane. Not sure why I brought up this insanity in this thread but some comments above triggered a response.

Posted by: ToivoS | Sep 19 2021 2:58 utc | 169

@176. I'm no weapons expert but I get the impression the West is playing catchup. Perhaps the best hope is to keep consuming Chinese products.

Posted by: dh | Sep 19 2021 3:12 utc | 170

Posted by Max @ 136

Who wrote:

".....France and Thales are owners of the Naval Group, a submarine manufacturer in France who lost the contract. Defence and digital security company Thales is a member of the Bilderberg group. It has been working with Gates Foundation and Rockefeller Foundation to promote a global digital citizen number, Digital ID, universal mobile-digital identity, COVID certificate & passes... Its Digital driver's license projects (also known as mobile driver's licenses) gathered momentum in countries including the U$A, UK, Australia, and the Netherlands. Please checkout Thales Group’s website...."

You make a very important point about the planned 'global digital citizen number.' This has been a long held objective.

Australian PM, Bob Hawke, proposed a so called, 'Australia Card' decades ago and there was an uproar until it was dropped. Since then various subterfuges have been used to force people to be numbered, one way or another. Strictly for the convenience of the government, not the people.

Once introduced it will become necessary for increasing demands for its use, by stealth and increment.

It is all about total command and control.

Show me your papers!

Posted by: Paul | Sep 19 2021 3:25 utc | 171

Paul 181

That horse has long since bolted yet so many still think big brother isn't watching everything they do.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 19 2021 3:51 utc | 172

The Americans are devious as they are cowardly.

Just as America hopes to hide behind the skirts of the Ukrainians, Poland, the Baltics, or other Europeans to wage a new Cold War against Russia, so too does America hope to behind the skirts of the Australians, Japanese, Indians, or Taiwan to wage a new Cold War against China.

The idea is to get the USA's proxies and puppets to bear much of the cost of this Eurasian conflict—while the Americans reap the benefits from the alleged safety of their North American Empire.

This is the USA’s “Lead from Behind” stratagem-—which was first advanced by the Obama Regime and continued by both the Trump/Biden Regimes.

And make no mistake, this new Cold War is not about defending freedom, democracy, or other Orwellian American bullshit—just as the old Cold War was about these phony values or the USA's fake War on Terror was about fighting terrorism.

The supposed “pivot” from the War on Terrorism to new Cold War is merely a shift in the *propaganda rationalizations* that are deployed to sell the same ultimate agenda:

This war on terrorism is bogus

In short, America is waging an aggressive (hybrid) world war to advance American world domination. Full Stop.

This has been the fundamental driver of the USA's imperial ambitions since the old Cold War.

Or better yet, you could say this will to power is the political DNA of the American Evil Empire itself since 1776.

Now, however, America's Manifest Destiny is planetary in ambition.

U.S. Strategy Plan Calls For Insuring No Rivals Develop

National Security Strategy document affirms US drive for world domination

US military basing to expand in Australia, directed against China

Posted by: ak74 | Sep 19 2021 5:31 utc | 173

Laguerre @141:

The problem is that with globalized supply chains Europe can't just go it on their own. They need allies. And there will be two major ones to choose from: Russia or China. And since Russia isn't really a major global player, we're left with one: China. Maybe Eurasia just turned a lot more European.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Sep 19 2021 6:02 utc | 174

Here's an idea for France.

The next time the question of EU sanctions on Russia comes up for renewal, veto it. Then resume agricultural and other traditional economic relations with Russia as they were before 2014.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 19 2021 6:12 utc | 175


I think Macron in in a similar position to the Afghans wanting to cling on to undercarriage as the American planes flew away.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 19 2021 6:20 utc | 176

ToivoS @179:

The Baltic states are probably a part of conventional war planning in the Pentagon.

The whole Swedish military is right now being restructured to protect supplies coming in from Norway and leaving the Swedish east coast. Those supplies are going somewhere...

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Sep 19 2021 6:36 utc | 177

yes, Ak74 @ 173 <=but how does global dominance benefit USA governed domestic Americans?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 19 2021 2:04 utc | 170 factions vs monolith
I have often commented that USA character is both faction (<=the faction part is the oligarch and his knee breaker global monopoly powered corporations) and monolith (<=the expression of the constitution that imposes on governance the structured state part).

The common response has been destructive. It has been to destroy governed domestic USA American homeland interest. It has invited unthinkable attack on the homeland by outsiders. This is being done by those in charge without any rational goal in sight, leaving only the conclusion that the purpose of these irrational goals is to induce negative global response with design to ultimately destroy the fabric, culture and advanced society which has been the hallmark of America. I just can't explain why?

The rise of an economically powerful China happened in response to the use of government (rule of copyright, patent law and engaging in acts of privatization), Afghanistan locals responded to invasion by forcing the USA out, Iraq is forcing USA out. Everything the USA does seem to further weaken the USA governed domestic America. War and preparation for war, is a process that drains the governed but it enriches the 1%. ..

All roads lead lead me to the same conclusion: for some reason, the oligarch are intentionally attempting to use the USA to drain America of any ability to survive. They have written laws and used them to drain America of its industry, its culture, its values, its morality, its advanced educational excellence and its technical enterprise capacity to produce winning products. Even Biden's tax the rich plan, takes the money from Americans to rebuilt the infra structure that has not been rebuilt, because of funding the MIC.

These public and hidden entities, whether in the factional periphery or buried deep within the monolithic structure of the nation state all seem to be busy doing things which weaken and create chaos in USA governed American homeland.
I could write a book with nothing but examples to make my point.
I don't think there is any realizable intention of attacking or invading China or Russia or even Iran but there seems to be always USA escalation which seems always to induce responses which oppose domestic USA governed American homeland interest but which at the same time always enrich the pockets of the oligarch owned corporate enterprises and seem always to encourage the Oligarch to move their corporations, technology and jobs somewhere else and always to close down as many small businesses as they can.
Even the violation of the 4th amendment in collecting private data about people, allowed by an unaccountable congress , weakens highly competitive domestic America.. Americans have been regimented.. even after the FDA said not necessary for a 2nd mRNA injection (covid vaccine), the sheep are lining up. never would this happen in the 1950s, 60s or early 70s.. this transition has been facilitated by false and misleading propaganda distributed over the MSM. so the whole things looks like it is not the government at work, but the oligarch at work on the government.

Posted by: snake | Sep 19 2021 6:39 utc | 178

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 19 2021 2:55 utc | 177:

Something like what is based in Japan but on a larger scale. come to think of it those naval bases are very close, too close to China in the event of any sort of war.

China has toys called DF-17, DF-21D, and DF-26 designed specifically for naval bases located around 5,000 kilometers from Chinese shores. I suspect China foresaw what's coming.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Sep 19 2021 6:53 utc | 179

@ snake | Sep 19 2021 6:39 utc | 188 who wrote

All roads lead lead me to the same conclusion: for some reason, the oligarch are intentionally attempting to use the USA to drain America of any ability to survive. They have written laws and used them to drain America of its industry, its culture, its values, its morality, its advanced educational excellence and its technical enterprise capacity to produce winning products.

I agree. And at the same time the American public are being heaped with un-payable debt at the national level

To me this resembles the Shock Doctrine meme writ large, meaning focused on the current proxy of global private finance.

Can and will global private finance find a new proxy host for its perfidy before the existing host bites the dust?

Stay tuned......the shit show continues until it doesn't.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 19 2021 7:04 utc | 180

Oriental Voice 189

Yes, but we seem to be going ahead anyway. Its as though Anglo superiority believe China will back down when push comes to shove. We are very much following the Rand Corp strategy of 2016 that China will capitulate before escalating to nuclear war.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 19 2021 7:20 utc | 181

Sickening propaganda video. This was pushed in my face on my TV viewing list., they are serious:

'How Canada, Australia, New Zealand and UK are secretly forming a Global Superpower'


This video comes with totally fabricated polling. It will never be popular in Australia or NZ. Imagine the unwieldy bureaucracy, bloated military, servile and corrupt foreign policy of this entity.

Note; NZ declined to join the Australian Federation and didn't bother sending another delegation to the second Australian Constitutional Convention, for good reasons.

New Zealand is non nuclear and no government will change that.

Bonkers Boris looks likely to be behind it and the UK only just left the EU.

Posted by: Paul | Sep 19 2021 7:38 utc | 182

Here it is, the sound track of a love story gone sour, from the US a great musician performs this french of french songs:

Que reste-t-il de nos amours
Que reste-t-il de ces beaux jours...

Bonheur fané, cheveux au vent
Baisers volés, rêves mouvants
Que reste-t-il de tout cela

Posted by: Paco | Sep 19 2021 8:46 utc | 183

I stumbled upon something a while ago. President Putin seems to have a collaboration of sorts with Finnish President, Sauli Niinistö. To see this in action, just follow the reports of meetings and conversations reported by each president.

So Putin talked with Niinistö -

Now we should watch whom Niinistö speaks with. Oh wait, there was something recently… he had a working visit to France last week:

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Sep 19 2021 8:51 utc | 184

Putin on why never to corner a rat

Geo-politically, five rats are now in a corner. A corner of their own choosing.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 19 2021 8:55 utc | 185

Peter AU1 | Sep 18 2021 23:51 utc | 158

Alas, poor Oz. A long time ago there was an was "independent". That was during the period we thought of emigrating there.
- Now...Sold out, bought out or just outed?

Has the "old" commonwealth become the new "corporatewealth"?

Jackrabbit | Sep 19 2021 2:55 utc | 178

This is similar to the link from Françoise. However, it does use the term "blind-sided". ie They were not aware of any negotiations.

"We have been blind-sided intentionally for 18 months,”


Generally, I reckon that the US is creating a situation where all potential conflicts are supposed to take place on the territories of it's proxies. Europe, Taiwan and Australia. To a certain extent the US is "supposed" to survive any war that goes nuclear. Precision; The crowds in the PentaBunkers are expecting to survive. Tough sh*t for the rest of the US.

Note that other Bunker ridden "elus" (chosen), have all elected "domicile" in countries that would not be first line targets, such as NZ, Chile, Patagonia etc.

Australia, being so vast is a separate case. Lots of surface and lots of places to hide out in. Nuke a kangaroo, jack,

Peter AU1 has put it correctly, as there are (at least) 19 US bases or conjoined US/Aus bases. This will probably exclude the "missile ranges" and other non specific territorial acquisitions. Aus Independence be damned.

One of the biggest reasons for Aus to become militarised are the radar and other space observation systems which have been installed for a long time. As near space (and satellites) will become important in any future hotilities, I would assume that they will be "updated" to have various long range missile complexes and possibly big enough to eliminate Russian satellites. (Not only land-land).

As such it is the US military reinforcement "agreement" that has been one of the more serious reasons for creating the sub-fiasco.

I think that small wars will be considered a possibility by the brain drain that is the Pentagon.

Posted by: Stonebird | Sep 19 2021 9:05 utc | 186

Stonebird ".Sold out, bought out or just outed?"

The links to the 'old country' is strong in a number of quarters. Then there is the underlying sense of Anglo superiority, the fear of a world where anglo is not dominant. The last is wide spread and why we now clearly see the anglosphere coalescing.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 19 2021 9:21 utc | 187

March 2020 broke the bucket. From now on it's only acceleration ideology, economy and military - wise.

Posted by: ReligionScales | Sep 19 2021 9:25 utc | 188

@138 Laguerre "The British role in this seems to me extremely minor."

Actually, maybe not. If it is assumed that the Adelaide shipyard is not capable of building nuclear submarines (it isn't) then they have to be built overseas.

But there are only two shipyards in the USA that can build Virginia-class attack subs, and they are fully committed with building those for the US Navy.

So not there.

Which rather leaves the Brits, who are building the last two of their Astute-class attack subs, so once that finishes then those shipyards will be available.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 19 2021 9:29 utc | 189

I wish b would write something about the impending German elections and their possible consequences. From Europe one can only hope that Brexit is for real, bye bye anglo world and now it is up to Germany. The most natural entente is with Russia, France puts the military base enhanced by German know how and with the natural and human resources of Russia. Too bad European leaders and its parliament have been groomed by that fading anglo world, but one can only hope.

Good Bye Америка

Posted by: Paco | Sep 19 2021 9:42 utc | 190

Yeah, Right 201

Perhaps the new Australians that man those subs will wear British boots rather than US boots? Though I think it will most likely that the end result of this is simply US subs and ships based in Australia. Indian ocean is something they will want to control and oz is a good base for both Indian ocean and Asia pacific.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 19 2021 9:44 utc | 191

I found this interesting article pop on NEO website same time as the nuclear submarine vaudeville ramped up. It has more immediate implication for regional peace than the election bound Australian governments typical marketing announcements.
South Korea test launch SLBM

Posted by: Dim sim | Sep 19 2021 10:01 utc | 192

@203 Peter AU1 I have written many times that I do not think that Scott Morrison has any intention of acquiring any nuclear submarines from anywhere.

He fully intends to shaft South Australian shipbuilding as if, well, as if they are a French shipbuilder.

But, please, one backstabbing at a time.
No need to be hasty; it will look unseemly.

So he shafted the French while offering South Australia the world.
He can now concentrate on the next Federal election.
It's only AFTER that election that he shaft the South Australians.

But he eventually runs into a brick wall; he can't shaft Washington.
That would be like attempting to double-cross Al Capone - Not. Wise.

So, yeah, I agree, the endgame will be an agreement to base US nuclear subs out of Fremantle.

But Morrison can't come out and say that *now*, because he still has a federal election to fight.
So one back-stabbing at a time, thank you very much.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 19 2021 10:10 utc | 193

Yeah, Right

The war of terror was a bit aimless, more like destruction because we could and plenty of gravy and corruption.

I think the driving force now is what seems to be called an intangible. I am not sure what is the best terminology to use for the leadership of what Australian lady in a comment described as 'poor fella my country', but for the nazi types running this show, backstabbing will be used often. The driving force for the coming era has gone beyond corruption. Corruption will be there but not as the driving force.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 19 2021 10:36 utc | 194

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 19 2021 9:21 utc | 199

who wrote:

"The links to the 'old country' is strong in a number of quarters. Then there is the underlying sense of Anglo superiority, the fear of a world where anglo is not dominant. The last is wide spread and why we now clearly see the anglosphere coalescing."

Agreed, but let's get it in plain language, generally, Australians fear the 'other' even Poms and Kiwis, particularly Asians, the yella peril.

That's why Khaki elections and boat people refugee elections pay off so well for the coalition decade after decade.

Labor is gutless and not game to challenge the scare stories for fear of being 'wedged.' Labor banished very popular local pro-Palestine MP's, Julia Irwin and Melissa Parke for fear of loosing zionist 'donors.'

The Greens are similarly challenged and handicapped , there is a zionist 'kibbutz' in Northern NSW which has reconstituted themselves as a Greens 'branch.' So the Greens have split into 'the Tree Tories' and 'the 'Eastern Bloc' feuding factions.


Thanks to Paco, I shared your video and lyrics with a few French friends. One couple living in beautiful Sardinia the others in Germany. The stupid British can only drool on the opportunity lost by their Brexit vote. It appears xenophobia is an Anglo trait inherited by ockers in Oz. {translation for Americans, N & S, ockers = rednecks}.

Posted by: Paul | Sep 19 2021 11:25 utc | 195

Dim sim | Sep 19 2021 10:01 utc | 204

From your link.
"although the 3000-ton class submarine is diesel-powered, its successful development and a high proportion of locally produced parts have proven that South Korea has set the stage for building 4,000-ton or 5,000-ton nuclear-powered submarines in the near future."

Seems the US has started an arms race in the badly named "Pacific". They will need lots of targets to take the attention away from the US mainland.


Peter AU1 | Sep 19 2021 10:36 utc | 206.


What is coming is a depopulation on a massive scale. The resetters want absolute domination. Thus worldwide the following will be considered necessary by them;

a) Population reduction by billions. The later effects of injections could turn out to be one vector for the US and EU, but would not touch the populations of China and Russia who use different vaccines.

Will have to be neutralized or eliminated.

b) Control of the ones remaining. (Wellcamps at Toowoomba as an example, it has an airport that can be used by Jumbo Jets or long range bombers). Personalized control measures. (guess? The key word starts with P**sp**t.) The object being to get the population as obedient as possible so that they will "love big daddy" (as in 1984.). Of course it is "For their own safety".

c) The ones remaining will be segregated in urban areas, more or less without the possibility of travel. The rest of the world will be reserved for vast "natural estates" for vast "nature free" Leaders.

d) "Corruption" will be renamed as; "Dues for services".

e). The armed forces will be renamed; "Dudes, fit for services".

I could go on but as the above is said with only a partial segment of "tongue in cheek", I'll leave it for today. We do need to take a worldwide view rather than a country by country one - as that is the way it is probably planned.

Posted by: Stonebird | Sep 19 2021 11:45 utc | 196

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 19 2021 9:21 utc | 199

The Wagner's private Toowoomba airport saga is another long and boring example of Australian bureaucracy, money, floods, mis-management, corruption, featherbedding and sandal. Now the Old government is building a quarantine facility there.

There is plenty of land around Brisbane's Eagle Farm Airport for that facility.

Posted by: Paul | Sep 19 2021 12:16 utc | 197

RE: Posted by: vk | Sep 18 2021 13:55 utc | 104

“This is a very important hint: “


“The message is very clear: the role of the European Peninsula is to fight Russia, not China. “

Assumptions are often coated in “certainty” to aid swallowing.

Among the assumptions encouraged by the opponents is that their “enemies” are competimg/distinct enough to facilitate “divide and rule”, since they hold that ““Competition is a code word for confrontation” and all compete.

Your contribution is not so restrictive, since your reliance on assumptions delivered with coating of "old time religion" are illustrated throughout

Posted by: MagdaTam | Sep 19 2021 12:56 utc | 198

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 19 2021 9:29 utc | 201

I can't see the Yanks letting the contract go to a British shipyard, the whole point is to have US equipment paid for by Australia, but under US control.

though I quite agree lack of US building capacity may mean the Oz submarines are endlessly delayed.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 19 2021 13:10 utc | 199

@170 JackRabbit:

Yes, that does help. Clears the decks for the next round of inspection.


There is a great deal of smoke, fear, uncertainty, doubt and general obfuscation about the who, what and why of the Empire crowd. Here are a few of the possible reasons for the fog:

a. We're afraid. We think, and maybe (not definitely) that we'll get squashed if we ask too many pointed questions, or reveal too much to ourselves

b. There's a lot of conflicting info, allegation, rumor and otherwise diffusing info on the table

c. We have not set it as a goal of ours to thoroughly define what this Empire thing is, and how it works

Item b. would be rather easier to address if item a. wasn't so dominant.

I think it's time to ask directly:

a. Is fear, indeed, the major obstruction to understanding the morphology, motive, and players of the Empire crowd?
b. If fear is the major obstruction, and maybe it's not...if it is:
b.1 Is that fear justified. Does the Empire truly give a rap if little people like me understand it?
b.2 If the fear addressable? How does one cope with fear?

I realize that the foregoing is (possibly) off-putting for many commentators. All of us know that whatever we put out here on the Internet is observable by the very people we suppose constitute the Empire crowd. So there's risk involved, and understandably many of us will wisely avoid such risk.

But that trepidation may not deter all of us. Everyone's situation is a little different.

My own view - which may be unwise, but nevertheless, it is my current view - is that the Empire - whatever and whomever it is - isn't too concerned about what people like me think. It's got much bigger fish to fry. I also believe that the factionalism among the Empire is real, is significant, and its significance is growing as the wheels of time grind onward.

Big changes are happening. The Empire knows this much better, certainly, than I do, and maybe better than any of us.

My thesis is that Empire is approaching an epochal junction. The world has changed very much since the time when an Empire could fool and control all the people all the time. The pond they swim in is rapidly decreasing in circumference, and the problems they (and all of us) face are rapidly increasing in scope and severity. This fact is not lost on them; they understand it better than we do.

So why would the Empire tolerate inspection and commentary by the little people? I think this is the key question we should ponder.

Empire understands the risks of group-think. These are not dumb people. They understand the value of outsiders (that'd be me; I'm not casting aspersions on all you better-adjusted and more-integrated folk), and "outsiders" - in the most constructive and positive construction - have enormous value to a society. The big insights often emanate from the fringe inwards.

If you don't understand how a system works, it's tough to diagnose and solve problems. I think it's fair to say that most commenters here want to advance the human situation, and to do so, we're - (oops, that's projection, let me confine it to "me") I am going to need a better understanding of how, truly, this system works.

I vote for more clarity. Please help me understand:

a. Goals. What are the goals of this Empire thing?
b. Structure (hierarchy? Network / mesh? kids-at-a-soccer-game chaos?) of Empire players
c. Factions. What are they, what's their function, where in the structure do they fit?
d. Comm and control. Who talks to whom via what mechanism

Of course that's a monstrous task, well out of scope for a barfly repartee on a Sunday AM. So I put this out there, hoping it'll percolate a little, and maybe we can start peeling the onion as conditions and interest indicate.

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Sep 19 2021 13:19 utc | 200

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