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August 05, 2021

Open Thread 2021-059

News & views ...

Posted by b on August 5, 2021 at 13:15 UTC | Permalink

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Strategic Culture Today
This week sees the U.S. navy engaging in huge military drills in the South China Sea along with Australia, Japan and India. The U.S.-led group known as “The Quad” has adopted a strident stance of challenging China and hemming it in.

A British-led carrier strike group comprising American and Dutch warships has also entered the South China Sea on a regional display of power. France recently sent a nuclear submarine to “patrol” the sea which is a vital commercial shipping route for China and which also possesses abundant subterranean oil and gas reserves. Germany announced this week that it was deploying a warship to the South China Sea – the first such mission to the region for Berlin in two decades.

Meanwhile, Jens Stoltenberg, head of the U.S.-led military alliance, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, has the brass neck, or stupidity, to repeatedly claim that “China is coming closer to us”.

So the so-called transatlantic alliance is moving to the Pacific and Asia to presumably defend Western democracy and security from the threat of China. Only a thoroughly brainwashed subject could possibly believe such nonsensical double-think.

The overt militarism towards China is part of the “hybrid warfare” that Washington and its imperialist surrogates (NATO, Five Eyes, corporate news media, etc.,) accuse Beijing (and Moscow) of waging. The other aspect of this hybrid aggression is informational warfare.

China is constantly vilified and demonized by Washington and its allies with groundless allegations of genocide against the Uyghur ethnic minority in Xinjiang western province and of human rights abuses in its other renegade island territory of Hong Kong. China points out that its Uyghur population has grown significantly and prosperously in recent years.

Beijing has also been accused of conducting global cyberattacks and more recently of expanding its nuclear arsenal. All of these accusations can be more substantially and accurately leveled at the United States and its allies.

A further twist in information warfare is the politicization of the Covid-19 pandemic.

U.S. politicians and media are shoring up tenuous claims that the deadly novel coronavirus originated from a medical research laboratory in the Chinese city of Wuhan. This week, U.S. intelligence agencies claim to have surreptitiously obtained genetic data from the Wuhan Institute of Virology which could allegedly demonstrate that the virus escaped from its laboratories.

This is setting up a “smoking gun” scenario which can then be used by Washington to incriminate China over the global pandemic. It is not dissimilar to how in the past the same intelligence agencies falsely cooked up “evidence” of weapons of mass destruction that justified the U.S. launching a genocidal war on Iraq.

For its part, Beijing has vehemently dismissed all of these allegations as part of Washington’s aim to create a new Cold War. On the origins of the pandemic, in particular, China points to evidence that implicates the U.S. biowarfare laboratory, Fort Detrick, Maryland.

The American objective here is to divide the world into adversarial camps so that it can dictate the terms of engagement. European allies are being manipulated and forced to damage their own burgeoning economic relations with China.

Washington’s global ambitions are predicated totally on an adversarial agenda. The unique and dubious privilege of the U.S. dollar as a universal exchange currency is fundamental to maintaining this global power. The economic rise of China and the emergence of a multipolar world is anathema to – indeed the nemesis of – the U.S. empire. This explains the madcap efforts by Washington to whip up antagonism at every opportunity. But this criminal madness is stoking all-out war.

Posted by: ld | Aug 6 2021 13:22 utc | 101

Posted by: ld | Aug 6 2021 13:22 utc | 101

Well, you have to understand. The US military has almost never had any other job than fighting inferior forces with larcenous intent. Civil War (ours), WWI, and WWII are the only examples I can think of in which we had to take a lot more casualties than the other guys. And in those last two examples we played the role of a second, not a principal, in the fight. Japan and Germany in WWII and WWI, are our only examples of all out peer-to-peer war. So for one thing you can note that we were VERY taken with those wars and our role in them. Trying to arrange that same high over and over again. And for another thing you can note that most of our failings military and otherwise are those common to all colonial enterprises. It's why we get along with the Izzies so well, love every dictator we ever met, etc. Birds of a feather.

Posted by: Bemildred | Aug 6 2021 13:40 utc | 102

For those who suppose that the mRNA 'vaccines' will protect, please investigate the website theautomaticearth.com for articles on 'Antibody Dependent Enhancement'[ADE].

Posted by: juliania @ 39" Dr. Malone did conduct tests starting 20 years ago for similar vaccines, but gave up because the animals being tested were fine with the synthetic antibodies, but died when those wore off as their innate immune systems were compromised and their vital organs were attacked.

<== this fits in with an email forward to me from someone which said, I quote

"Saw ..video...blood vessels get holes in them and let spike stuff go into all organs...so immune system attacks the organs too. Auto immune response, and clots...Fauxci is expert on AIDS...

Then people get 2nd or 3rd shot and it gets worse. Nice."

<==micro tessellation ? The synthetic vaccine <=engineers a virus like ligand, the ligand is detected by the immune system and detection sets in motion a series of events that develop immune response to the recognized non human artifact.

<=Consider the long term impact of stress on blood vessel integrity? The long term aspect of vaccines that bio engineer virus like ligands, raise questions about the construction of the package as well as the content of the package that delivers the gene segment to the human body. Something about that package seems to be producing data, which suggest something in the package is responsible for modified blood vessels ( loss of internal smoothness)? Loss of smoothness leads to disrupted blood flow which often leads to multiple problems? No one has said the virus does the same .. if true, micro tessellation may not be a result of either the induced synthetic or natural viron capsule (the ligand) but the long term effects seems to refer back somehow to the package or its contents ( mRNA + lipid+?+?) which are delivered by injection? Apparently data is arriving which shows injected mRNA vaccines somehow deliver not only the intended short term acting bio engineering mRNA gene segment to bio reengineer every susceptible cell in one's human body, but also seems to be longer term effects which are only now beginning to appear in the literature.

Juliana @ 75. "Results of the study: COVID-19 vaccines designed to elicit neutralising antibodies may sensitize vaccine recipients to more severe disease than if they were not vaccinated." Vaccines for SARS, MERS and RSV have never been approved, and the data generated in the development and testing of these vaccines suggest a serious mechanistic concern: <= every day that goes by, some new concern concerning man engineered changes to natural biology, are seen, but often not recognized, in the offices of practicing MDs. c!ue @ 77 explains "the negative results from getting COVID are worsened due to the vaccination." Juliania @ 78 This would have been why no vaccines were produced for SARS, etc. as claimed in the extract at 75. Further trials on humans could not proceed, given this stark result.
Andy @ 82-83 A Dr Hoffe found 62% of those tested within week of jab had micro clots, using the D-dimer test which identifies only new clots. His concern was/is permanent damage to the capillaries in lungs, increased pressure on heart leading to heart failure in approx 3 years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sIWb9GTbbE Dr Hoffe's home town of Lytton has been burnt to the ground, presumably including his family practice. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/25/lytton-canada-heat-wildfire-record-temperatures <= similarly 5 heads of different states dead within the past few weeks all five were against the manadatory vaccination? Are we dealing with a mafia with ability to control access to the media? Bolsover @ 94 Attendance to emergency care and deaths by vaccination status...genotyped Delta cases. 1/2/21 - 19/7/21

Unvaccinated - 165
Fully vaccinated (2 doses)- 224
Partial vaccinated (1 dose)- 65

Government spin is that a greater % of population is now vaccinated

Karlof1 @ 54. Owing to its representativeness and universality, the UN is rightfully viewed as a unique platform for an equitable dialogue aimed at reaching compromise solutions with due regard to different opinions.

" Attempts to undermine the authority and legitimacy of the UN are, in our view, extremely dangerous, as they can lead to the dismantlement of the multipolar system of international relations."


<= in my view, the nation states system has always been lawless; just as soon as a leader of a nation state uses a nation state he/she leads, to do something outrageous, the UN meets, decides the something is allowed or off limits, but such is too late to stop the outrageous activity. So I am 100% against the UN.. Its like saying the competition from Hardees new Burger product is too much, so the Macdonald Franchisees should meet and decide what McDonald;s should do to minimized the Hardee Burger competition.

<=The UN protects war criminals under guise of sovereign immunity. What is needed is a second government to enforce humanity right laws against those who run the 256 nation state franchises that comprise the nation state franchise.

If the 8 billion governed in the world were to meet and develop an
international set of laws, pertaining to the behaviors of those who run the governments, a court independent of the nations, and act together as governed citizens of humanity to force all leaders in every nation state to comply
there behaviors to the international set of laws, there would be fewer wars
and a need for several new big prisons, and the savings in dollars would pay off everyone's debt and the nation state oligarchs would become one of the governed.

Lurk @ 57 Clue, "Tycho" and "Caliman" VK and others: I am not at all satisfied the origin of the virus distributed to infect humans in ten or more places, each place, separated by thousands of miles, all within days of each other, has been found. Not even sure the finding of Covid in a cave in China is germane to the issue
of who distributed the virus, that infected the world, and where did the distributed viral origin come from.

Lurk @ 70 ..discussed at the MoA many times .

The histological data.. > 1.1% of US blood donors in Dec 2019 - Jan 2020 having antibodies specific to SARS-COV-2 (that implies statistically about 4 million Americans.)

The initial European clusters in the spring of 2020 in many instances were noticeably close to major NATO bases, and not to sites typically visited by Chinese tourists.

The Wuhan outbreak was subsequent to the 2019 Wuhan Military World Games, in which the US athletes performance was unusually and even exceptionally bad. The Chinese pointed to the hotel in which the US team had stayed as an early source of infections, much more so than the much maligned "wet market".

There is much more than that, but why should I iterate over it when you simply refuse to respond to the glaring EVALI problem?

<=Yes, sir I agree, finding Covid in a cave does not mean the cave bat is the only original source.. and it certainly does not explain how a cave bat reached the ten thousand mile separated spots in the same few days.

Posted by: snake | Aug 6 2021 14:06 utc | 103

This is good. Recommend the read:

Pentagon documents reveal how the DOD bullies movie and TV producers into forcing them to accept their ‘assistance’

The Pentagon's role in sustaining Hollywood since the post-war period was an already very well-known fact by historians of the subject. But the released report shows the Pentagon's power over Hollywood goes well beyond mere funding.

The link for the report (133 pages long) is in the article.

--//--

U.S. political manipulation of COVID-19 origin tracing doomed to find little support in the world

At such a moment of crisis, U.S. politicians, in total disregard of the lives and health of people in their country, bent their efforts to politicize virus-tracing, stigmatize other countries and turn the origin-tracing study into their tool, severely hindering and sabotaging scientific and serious virus origin study as well as international cooperation in epidemic prevention and control.

These misdeeds of U.S. politicians, which have made them “accomplices” of the COVID-19 and become an even more destructive “political virus”, are neither moral nor supported by people in the world, and will only end in failure.

For a while, it has been reported that COVID-19 cases appeared in multiple places in the world during the second half of 2019. In the U.S., COVID-19 infections in at least five states happened earlier than the first confirmed case reported by the country.

This once again indicates that COVID-19 origin tracing, a complex scientific problem as it is, should be jointly carried out by scientists in the world based on a global vision.

However, U.S. officials have turned a blind eye to science and facts, and instead been obsessed with political manipulation, including seeking evidence for a conclusion reached beforehand and a presumption of guilt, aiming to make wild accusations against China.

If we take the wackos that frequently comment on this blog, it seems the US propaganda on the virus is working.

--//--

Exclusive: US 'Worker Rights Consortium' extorts $300,000 from Chinese, US firms by fabricating Xinjiang 'forced labor' issue

Like I've been saying here many times: the USA is not willing to go down like the USSR. It will suck the rest of the world dry if needed to.

--//--

As Infrastructure Bill Inches Forth, a Rocky, Slow Path Awaits in the House

During the campaign, it was a USD 9 trillion infrastructure package. That figure was still born by the moment Biden was sworn in and it was immediately downgraded to USD 6 trillion.

Then, it was further downgraded to USD 3.5 trillion, after it became clear the old figure had a matchstick's change in Cocytus of prospering.

But that's not the end of the story. Even this USD 3.5 trn figure seemed too much, as inflation started to creep up. It was then dismembered in many parts, of which first a USD 1.5 trn on infrastructure was proposed.

Even this pathetic figure of USD 1.5 trn couldn't pass. Now it's been further downgraded to USD 1 trn. I think the Democrats will stick with this figure, because the word "trillion" is impressive to the ears and eyes of the average American. The other USD 2.5 billion are in separate bills, and are related to some kind of bogus "development" projects/policies.

--//--

US Intelligence Agencies Reportedly Hack Cloud Servers Containing Wuhan Lab Virus Samples

Well, congratulations, lab leak conspiracy theorists. You'll get what you want soon. I hope you're happy with it, because you represent a no going back descent into a new dark ages for the West.

A civilization can give up many things, including its humanity, except science. A civilization without science cannot remain a civilization for too long - in the literal sense.

But that's the country that is now teaching Creationism on the same footing as Natural Selection (Evolution) in their schools.

--//--

Taliban Confirms It Killed Afghan Govt's Top Media Officer in Kabul

The Taliban showing how you treat the propagandists.

Propagandists are and should be treated as military personnel, of a higher ranking than even a lieutenant. Western "journalists", influencers, and twitterists should be aware that their actions have consequences, and that they're fooling no one outside their radius. And that, obviously, includes the media moguls (including the owner of Twitter), which should be treated as personnel of the ranking of a general.

The USA thinks it can hide itself under the mantle of "free enterprise". It can't.

Posted by: vk | Aug 6 2021 14:44 utc | 104

ld @101

The British, Dutch, French, Germans, Stoltenberg say they are moving to the Pacific to defend against China. We in Canada, being kept informed by our military over the past several decades, may have a different opinion. ... maybe the US is finally weak enough that their attention is relocated to the more southern parts of the North American continent (which don’t border Russia).

And speaking of the more southern parts of the North American continent, did anyone watch that very depressing episode of CBC’s The National last evening? (it’s available on their Twitter feed.)

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/indigo-appoints-dr-chika-stacy-oriuwa-to-board-of-directors-804890061.html

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Aug 6 2021 15:06 utc | 105

@Bruised Northerner | Aug 6 2021 15:06 utc | 105

The British, Dutch, French, Germans, Stoltenberg say they are moving to the Pacific to defend against China.

Stoltenberg is a Quisling, a fully owned puppet. Btw., he exploited 22. July 2011 and was promoted as chief puppet of NATO soon after. I wrote about it a week after the event (Norwegian language). My post referred to his PM promise of "more democracy" as I was sure it meant the opposite, since it was followed up by closing discussion fora.

I said then "Nå begynner vi å ane hva vi har i vente." ("now we begin to understand what is in store for us") and "Hvorfor opplever vi mindre åpenhet og mindre demokrati i mediene i samme øyeblikk som våre ledende politikere forteller oss at det motsatte skal skje?" ("Why do we experience less openness and less democracy in the media at the same time our leading politicians tell us that the opposite is going to happen?"). But still, I would not have believed then what is actually happening today.

One thing is for sure, Stoltenberg can be trusted to tell whatever lie is required of him.

Posted by: Norwegian | Aug 6 2021 15:42 utc | 106

circumspect @ 55 "...He... said natural immunity is as good as a shot."

I believe this also, only I'd say it is better because the shots wear off. Natural immunity only gets better with time. But don't despair if you've succumbed to the shot taking, just build up your own better immunity as the shots wear off. You can do it!

Posted by: juliania | Aug 6 2021 15:48 utc | 107

Thanks for the comments, Norwegian. In a previous post, I referred to the 80’s and the threat of European takeover, conquest, of Canada. I thought I should mention that actual European citizens (pick whichever country) were totally dismayed by that. We in Canada became gradually aware of the divide between the average folks, who are very reasonable and with whom we get along with well (people-people ties, the current govt calls it), and the ruling elite. Simply, there is no support anywhere in Europe (except possibly Ukraine these days??) for any kind of conquest of North America. Thus the lies. Or at least, that’s what our military and media tells us some of the time. It’s hard to know what’s true anymore!

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Aug 6 2021 15:53 utc | 108

What were the primary drivers for WWII and the Cold War?

“The primary goal behind WWII was to crush any potential competitors to the Anglo-Saxon currency and to create a new, dollar-based world...

the intention of Bretton Woods was to create a system in which some (the owners of the Fed) print money, in exchange for which everyone else saves up their own cash and sells all their valuables and resources...”

The USSR began conducting its foreign trade in golden rubles or in gold, but under no circumstances in dollars! Russia is doing the same thing now and leading De-Dollarization.

Why did Churchill turn down the “Order of the Garter” the first time?

Without the world reserve currency, the Financial Empire loses its leverage, control and fuel for its Orcs (individuals without conscience - dark souls) . To own the “Ring of Power,” (Financial Network) the Empire resorts to deceptions and deploys its army of Orcs.

The Financial Empire doesn’t like competition to its world reserve currency.

Posted by: Max | Aug 6 2021 15:56 utc | 109

interesting article in the global times... it appears this washington dc based ngo Worker Rights Consortium is into blackmail..

Exclusive: US 'Worker Rights Consortium' extorts $300,000 from Chinese, US firms by fabricating Xinjiang 'forced labour' issue..

Posted by: james | Aug 6 2021 16:05 utc | 110

trying the link again, giving it straight - https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202108/1230759.shtml

Posted by: james | Aug 6 2021 16:05 utc | 111

Thanks for responding, c1ue. What we haven't had explained to us is the actual threat ADE poses - I'm posting your reply here - and well aware I am somewhat out of my depth, but I'll try to answer you better, as much as I'm able.

@juliania #75
The description you attached doesn't include any actual mechanisms for why ADE may arise.
Nor am I particularly convinced that ADE is real given that vaccines have now been given the hundreds of millions of people - many tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of which have gotten COVID.
If ADE is both real and a common issue, we should be seeing much higher numbers of deaths vs. "normal" COVID - this is clearly not the case.
All data I have seen to date shows that the vaccines reduce the chance of hospitalization/death by maybe 50%.

Furthermore, ADE is not the same as what I was referring to. ADE appears to be some mechanism by which the negative results from getting COVID are worsened due to the vaccination.

What I had wondered about is why the duration of protection (whatever that might actually be) is shorter for vaccination vs. having had COVID.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 1:42 utc | 77

First, ADE stands for "Antibody Dependent Enhancement", so we are talking about 'antibodies' here, which in some way are crucial for an immune response when a virus attacks. (They are not the only factors in a good response, as also 'T-cells' have a role to play.) This enhancement is what the current vaccines do, what is called synthetic antibodies take over the function of the natural immune system in recognizing a virus and setting up appropriate defenses when attacked.

Some time back studies were done for the mRNA type vaccine against SARS and other viruses beginning with animal test subjects. The vaccines were found to work in the immediate first case scenario - the artificial antibodies did the job. However, over time the immunity wore off, and all animal subjects did not survive a further onslaught of the virus in question. My original link was to theautomaticearth.com. There are articles there which flesh out the details.

ADE is real, but only time will tell if it affects human subjects, which the vaccinated are, because we are only now reaching that second stage where the vaccines are wearing off. Will the immune system rebound after this happens? It would take time to rebuild, but I am hoping those who have taken the vaccine and are now having second thoughts will do everything possible to rebuild their natural immune system. Some will be in better shape and maybe have a residue of natural antibodies and T-cells; others won't. But see my post above to circumspect - the shot may be a short term fix but the consequences are still playing out.

Posted by: juliania | Aug 6 2021 16:08 utc | 112

@vk #46
The mountains in Taiwan are tall but not extensive.
There would be no retreating there unless it was literally individual soldiers. Formed units or even guerrilla bands would stick out like a neon sign in a pine forest.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 16:09 utc | 113

@circumspect #55
Re: COVID
The trends are up though. I know people in Stanford and the VA hospital - both are saying their ICUs are filling up.
If you look at the graphs for the California Department of Health - we're at a bit under 50% of the June 2020 COVID wave and the acceleration is still not showing any signs of slowing down.
Combine that with the mid-June opening - it will be interesting to see what happens.

Re: Newsom
All of the polls until the last week showed Newsom winning against the recall by a small margin - but the trend was against Newsom over time. The polls last week showed Newsom losing - and not just because of Republicans. The last polls showed a Democrat replacement for Newsom...
Without a full national push - not sure the mail-in ballots will help.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 16:14 utc | 114

@Platero #60
Is what you say proven in theory and/or lab? Or just speculated?

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 16:16 utc | 115

@juliania #78
The SARS-1, MERS etc vaccines were never brought to market because of money issues - i.e. lack of interest in funding, not because of any specific technical problems. Both SARS-1 and MERS were not very contagious and had no possibility of spreading far, hence a very small market.
This is straight from Osterholm who worked on these vaccines.
Any trial data is thus suspect since they were certainly trials from early in the development process.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 16:20 utc | 116

@Bemildred #102
The US took far less casualties in WW1 and WW2 than anyone else actually involved in fighting.
The Civil War - it was all "us" :)

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 16:21 utc | 117

Thanks to snake @103 for carrying forward my initial points. I am immediately reminded of the image of a bear, a squirrel, a wild cat all huddled together on a log floating in a raging torrent. As Grieved has posted, we need to forget minor differences and focus on saving lives. This is the best place to do that, because ultimately we are all on that floating log.

The reports of various animals in far off places 'having covid' also raises with me the image of an orange being tested for covid and found positive. There are so many questions it sometimes is best to keep in mind the short mantra: "first, do no harm." If we concentrate on that in our own actions, we should be on the right track.

Posted by: juliania | Aug 6 2021 16:24 utc | 118

Hi all,

Genesis 3:22 (The Bible Verse on the Skull & Bones Insignia):
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

Meet DARPA’s transhumanism agenda. The following is a list of various internet article clippings I’ve compiled on this topic. For the uninitiated, these may be eye opening. This list by no means a comprehensive study of DARPA’s full agenda nor is it complete for the topic it covers.

http://www.tritorch.com/DARPA

Posted by: griever | Aug 6 2021 16:27 utc | 119

@juliania #112
ADE looks more and more like anti-vax agitprop.

The entire purpose of a vaccine is to prime the human subject's own immune system to respond to an invading virus or bacterium.
The immune response isn't 1 dimensional - there are a wide range of responses including raising body temperature, aggregation/targeting of white blood cells, accelerated production of white blood cells, re-orienting antigen targeting and antibody production, etc etc.

ADE as defined above seems to state that the COVID vaccines (and SARS1 and MERS) are taking the place of the body's immune system - specifically that the vaccine is acting as an antibody itself as opposed to a foreign substance priming the immune system.

This is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing and I don't find it particularly convincing.

If the COVID vaccines are really "skipping a step" by providing antibody recognition of COVID (rather than priming) then why would 2 shots be needed? 1 shot should be plenty.

2 shots are needed now because the vaccine designers believe that the priming function needs reinforcement in order to be effective.

This seems more like the work of someone who really doesn't understand basic theory or practice and is trying to make a narrative work.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 16:29 utc | 120

snake @103--

I'm in general agreement with your objections since they aim at the UN's great weakness--the UNSC and the veto given the 5 permanent members. As you're aware, my descriptor of the USA as the Outlaw US Empire is directly related to its continual violation of the UN Charter and the US Constitution since 22 October 1945, which is when its criminal activity officially began. The essay by Edwin Borchard I previously linked to and do so again, "The Impracticality of 'Enforcing' Peace", provided a very well reasoned argument against the UNSC that's been buried. Both Russia and China understand the need to reform the UNSC, but getting the two Outlaw nations (I don't yet consider France an Outlaw, although perhaps I should) to submit to Law & Order is very unrealistic. And so we've regressed back to Might Makes Right, which the vast majority of nations oppose and abhor.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 6 2021 16:36 utc | 121

c1ue @ 116, ah, I see you are a follower of Osterholm, so mainstream media guy I guess since I haven't been exposed to him (stay away from mm). Well, it seems there are two streams, and whichever you dip into, that's the one you choose. I did ddg him, see he is very mainstream. There was one post that he was foregoing his second shot to give folk more chance to be vaccinated. I thought there were more than enough vaccines out there. Did he get that second shot at some point? I'd be interested to know, though of course such things... well, I won't go there.

His claim that the vaccine trials didn't amount to more than animal testing was that the money ran out as the viruses were petering out is indeed at odds with the claim that the animal tests were so negative no human trials could be attempted. I'm staying with the latter as surely if the animal trials had been successful the money would have been there - to 'protect' against possible resurgence. This time around it was there because of the virulence of the virus - I'm not doubting that. But the trial is going on, has been going on for this emergency use - has it prolonged the presence of the virus? That would be a question I can't answer.

Anyway, thanks for prolonging the conversation -- still very much to be learned, and learn we shall.

Posted by: juliania | Aug 6 2021 16:46 utc | 122

I have to wonder what exactly Alberta’s Dr Hinshaw is trying to say. She says: “COVID-19 is a wicked problem; experts don’t always agree on the exact nature of the problem, much less the best approach. But it is not the only wicked problem we are facing together," I find her use of the word “wicked” to be a bit odd.

Posted by: Absurdio | Aug 6 2021 16:53 utc | 123

@juliania #122
I am not a follower of Osterholm as defined as either a fan or a blind believer of anything he says.
In particular, his pronouncements of COVID doom without the most extreme measures were clearly wrong.
At the same time, it is also wrong to dismiss what he has actually done. As someone who actually worked on the SARS/MERS vaccines, this is real information which I have no reason to disbelieve.
Nor is he the only one who says that - there is another doctor who also worked on the SARS/MERS vaccine who says the same thing.
2 independent accounts - Osterholm and this other guy don't agree on almost anything else - constitute higher credibility data to me.

As for the economics you mention: no, I don't agree with your reasoning. A business decision is based on many factors, but TAM (Total Available Market) is one of the biggest ones. Any disease which has a very poor transmissibility has a very small TAM by definition because it just won't go very far, much less if countermeasures are taken. To me, it is 100% understandable why the major investments needed (we're talking tens of millions of dollars, if not more) to develop SARS/MERS vaccines is simply too little reward.

Contrast this with COVID - very highly transmissible. Even if it really is only needed for over 60s - that's still a TAM of billions of people. Add in some pharma-marketing to push it into everyone else...cha ching!

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 16:54 utc | 124

Linked by Karlof1 in the last open thread: Fourth Police Officer Who Responded to Capitol Unrest Found Dead Amid Spate of Suicides

In his remarks, Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn urged officers struggling from mental problems to get professional counselling. “What we all went through that day was traumatic, and if you are hurting, please take advantage of the counseling services that are available to us,” he said.

One suspects that was the mistake the four epsteined police officers made - they confessed to the "trauma counsellor" their concerns about the involvement of the FBI in organising the Capitol unrest project, and were thereby selected for the epsteining project. Just my opinion.

Posted by: BM | Aug 6 2021 16:57 utc | 125

This is an interesting writeup by Snowden.

I've mentioned many times that the Internet is the best agitprop engine ever created: its users create content for each other, thus saving those seeking isolation/manipulation an enormous amount of work.

Snowden goes further with this: he is saying that this "customized reality" which other users (and multinational companies) are creating for each user are creating

apophenia, defined as perceiving patterns that don't actually exist and referring them back to an unseen authority who must be pulling the strings.

...

in an apophenic, information-glutted world where you can basically find evidence for any theory you want, where people inhabit separate online realities

Interesting...

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 17:00 utc | 126

juliania@112: it's been sometime since i watched the video by michael yerdon (former VP of pfizer for 30yrs & its chief research officer) bt he goes into great detail about the difference between ACE & T cells. the video is rather long, nearly 2hrs, bt worth watching. sorry i thought i'd bookmarked bt apparently did not. i believe the site was called 'banned' possibly banned videos. best of luck, apologies for not having the link.

Posted by: emersonreturn | Aug 6 2021 17:08 utc | 127

@Absurdio #123
"wicked problems" are

systemic, self-fuelling tangles, which are multidimensional, hard to define and generate new problems when one tries to solve the old ones.

I first came across this term as used by Judith Curry in 2015, describing climate change.

It has nothing to do with the Broadway take on 'the Wizard of Oz'.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 17:11 utc | 128

Since COVID is being discussed in this thread, I thought I’d weigh in with my personal experience. (Consider me a guinea pig, if you like!) So I’m a proud anti-vaxxer who moved to Montreal a year ago, only to discover that Québécois are very much in favour of strict COVID measures (which included a 8 pm curfew in Montreal at one point). I can’t get around the vaccine without sacrificing public life. And I really like it here. So I went for my first vaccine on July 6. Fully pumped up with vitamin C, vitamin D, a good-quality multivitamin and a good-quality probiotic, I submitted to the jab (Pfizer). I had no problems with it, and the only side effect I experienced was some pain around the injection site.

The government of Quebec automatically booked me for a second jab, exactly 4 weeks later, on Aug. 4. I thought it was ideal to wait 8 weeks between shots, with a minimum of 4 weeks. I tried to change my appointment through the automated system, encountered some difficulty, then gave up. Fine. I’ll get the shot on your timetable, Quebec! I fought the law and the law won!

This time even though I had the same supplement regimen, I did have more of a reaction. I had a meeting (with masks) with a person with laryngitis a week or so prior and felt a slight bit of something but thought my regimen would insulate me. Not so. I had to ice my arm this time the day after (it’s pink around the prick today), flu-like symptoms... then I went from 2,000 mgs of vitamin C and 2,000 ius of vitamin D to 7,000 of each and I’m feeling much better. May increase to 10,000 of each if I start to decline again. I’ll admit it, I don’t spend enough time in the sun with exposed skin, even though it’s beautiful weather.

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Aug 6 2021 17:21 utc | 129

Thanks c1ue @ 124, I bow to your better understanding of the economics. And certainly profits have accrued. But did the animal tests have the results my original extract claimed? And this time, with an emergency rush to human trials were those original results producing ADE in animal testing kept in mind as humans became the ones being tested? Of course, humans are very different from animals, but still there is an unanswered question on what will ultimately happen after the vaccines wear off, however a layman may attempt to describe the process, if we simply recall what did happen in the aforementioned animal trials. And again, has the person you named had his second shot of the vaccine? Or did he have second thoughts after many who did do the double dose had more extreme results?

Please be assured I am not claiming criminal liability - I cannot assume folk acted without the best intention. But something is very fishy about the pressure being brought to bear on those who do not wish to be vaccinated as these are to my mind the necessary alternative that science in such situations requires. And when scientists and doctors are in this control group, they should also be listened to by the mainstream, which apparently is beginning to happen. Be safe, everyone.

Posted by: juliania | Aug 6 2021 17:21 utc | 130

Interesting...

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 17:00 utc | 126

Re Apophenia: Well, Snowden has a trained mind, so he has some idea what he doesn't know, and so he notices the apophenia. I have considered since long that something north of 90% of everything we think we know is stuff we invented ourselves, often not for the best reasons too. Anyway, the apophenia is not new, but the huge efflorescence of it we have now IS a product of the internet, and TV before it, and Radio before that. As it says, it used to be much more trouble. An apophenia bubble. When is it going to pop?

Posted by: Bemildred | Aug 6 2021 17:42 utc | 131

@Bemildred #102
The US took far less casualties in WW1 and WW2 than anyone else actually involved in fighting.
The Civil War - it was all "us" :)

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 16:21 utc | 117

Yes, I knew someone would correct me about that, and you are right, to be clear, but it doesn't really weaken my argument that we are not really that tough. Let's face it, we live in a great neighborhood here, for us.

Posted by: Bemildred | Aug 6 2021 17:47 utc | 132

Thank you, Bruised Northerner @ 129 for your personal report - best wishes for a safe journey through! Indeed, many are up against the imperatives and having to make the choice you have made. I think such messaging is very important, given that life dictates the choices we have. I'm an oldie, so I'm trying to push back against the mantra that the elderly are more frail with respect to immunity. We certainly have susceptibilities, but we too should try to maintain a healthy lifestyle as long as possible. That's the bottom line.

Quebec sounds like the place to be.

Posted by: juliania | Aug 6 2021 17:50 utc | 133

"During the course of developing natural immunity, your immune system has been presented with the complete pathogen. Perhaps only part of the pathogen is used to code the respone, or, more likely many different aspects are encoded.
Posted by: Platero | 60"

It is the later case according to my betters. Research on a cold vaccine, tho unsuccessful, attempted to target features that are constant and by using multiple features.

All based on your comment. Natural immunity is highly preferable to vaccines for colds and flu. Corona if you prefer.
===============
VK @ places

"So, as you can see, the lab leak theory doesn't simplify the situation for us. We would still have to find patient zero. We would still have to explain all the patterns of spreading of the virus. If this was an accident, we would still have to explain and demonstrate the entire due diligence of process that led to it (unless you think the Chinese people don't deserve to be treated to the rule of law?). That alone would also take at least one decade to prove."

You would never get US cooperation and even Congress couldn't stop obstruction from the DOD and CIA. So we have the usual dead end here.
But with unlimited power they could track this down in a matter of weeks, not ten years.

"The lab leak theory is one of those hypothesis that seem genial at first glance, but is actually very stupid."

That is a stupid thing to say given the history of lab leaks, 180 patent directly for Covid2 and over 4000 related patents. Novel it ain't. We at least now know where labs or

On Covid, considering it will take 5 years to determine if these mRNA vaccines are safe and the high rate of serious adverse events here..... They work? Temporarily? Are they safe? Experts disagree with you.

I didn't come here to convince anyone but now I am worried about juliania. She should know the risks of this experiment.

You are an expert on other things and have my respect.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 6 2021 17:57 utc | 134

c1ue @ 128: Right you are about wicked problems. I looked it up and it is a term that goes back to the late 60’s. Her use of the term is not odd. Thanks for the lesson.

Posted by: Absurdio | Aug 6 2021 18:12 utc | 135

I am sorry VK.
*We at least now know where labs or unfortunate patient zeroes might get a specifics stain.*

I should have said from there it could go or be taken anywhere.

And you don't just abandon the valid theory this started naturally in some small town in the world. Maybe 3 years ago even.

Also. Wuhan's work was funded Fauci. So it's his virus were the leak confirmed.I am finding all this anti-China propaganda really offends me too and it is totally disengenious and just imperialism.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 6 2021 18:13 utc | 136

@juliania #133
Again, early animal testing is meaningless.
I will explain.

First of all - the notion that medical researchers are technicians as opposed to alchemists is a pernicious belief within our modern society.

A technician always achieves a known capability or aim by following the same practices whereas an alchemist sometimes achieves the aim or capability but not without trial and error or even necessarily knowing (correctly) why.

Medicine is called a practice for a reason: even the best practitioners differ between themselves on opinions on the same subject.

So given this: when a vaccine is to be developed - the process is to try and identify some section of the virus which is least mutable. Least mutable because single strand RNA viruses are incredibly inaccurate when copying themselves - as little as 1% of virions created in an infected cell are "viable". The rest are mutants - most of which are ineffective and do nothing, some of which are new versions of the virus which can make said virus better or worse but still viable (i.e. can infect other cells and reproduce).

Viruses like COVID are tiny in mammalian DNA terms. Identifying a sequence which is presumably vital (i.e. less likely to mutate) is hard, especially since there are sections of the virus which are common to a lot of things.

For example: last year, early COVID reports about "HIV DNA in COVID", for example, were based on such idiocy. These reports noted shared sequences between HIV and COVID, but the sequences in question are actually shared among pretty much all viruses period as well as almost any type of cell replication. It was like saying elephants are kin to trees because both have skin.

And you can thus see the problem: if the "identifying" sequence of the virus turns out to be a necessary part of normal mammalian or human function, then priming the immune system to attack it is a bad idea.

Of course, this is a simplification but the point is that early testing doesn't mean jack because doctors are alchemists and vaccine development is far more trial and error than any of them want to admit.

Note I am not implying anything against alchemists - the point is that a scientific approach via trial and error will work with areas that are largely alchemy, whereas a technician doesn't need to do trial and error - they can clearly and easily identify problems and fix them.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 18:24 utc | 137

@Bemildred #132
You said:

Let's face it, we live in a great neighborhood here, for us.

The great neighborhood exists because the US took all the good land and left the Canadians (literally) out in the cold, while taking huge swathes out of what used to be Mexico. Most of the SE, all of the West and significant parts of the central/southern US were once Mexico, for example.
But even then, the real reason why the US has had peace is because it was too busy profiting, selling arms to Europeans fighting each other.
That's why the EU was formed - to prevent that from ever happening again.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 18:28 utc | 138

Posted by: vk | Aug 5 2021 22:12 utc | 65
I think when those mink or whatever were cullled in Europe they may have destroyed important evidence and one very plausible natural orgin.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 6 2021 18:28 utc | 139

Interesting except of an interview of Andrey Bystritskiy, chairman of the Board of the Foundation for Development and Support of the Valdai Discussion Club.

First of all, I would like to note that we live in a changing world, moreover, a world that is changing radically. President Xi Jinping, in his speech on the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Communist Party of China (CPC), noted that he would not allow any humiliation of China, and Russia's position is the same. This means that a kind of competition has begun over how the emerging new world will be arranged.

...

Today it is very important to understand that a new world is taking shape. Western countries are trying to defend their former dominant position, they and their elites have moved on to what can be called active defense.

...

If I may say so, the United States and its allies are the past, clinging to their privileges. Russia and China are the future.

...

after 50 years we see that a strategy of constructive interaction between the three countries in the Russia-China-USA triangle is possible. But under one condition: the rationality of the elites, the ability to accept the world as it is, to realize the limits of their strength, their power. Alas, it is precisely the problem of rationality, of a sober assessment of reality today, that is an important problem, primarily for the United States itself.

...

One can only admire Western science, Western achievements, the social development of Western societies. However, it is strange to see that if within Western societies there is a desperate struggle for emancipation, for the rights of various minorities, then in foreign policy there remains an amazing bias, a stubborn desire to impose values, which, by the way, are often disputed within the Western countries themselves. There is a feeling that the ruling elites of the West are trying to win back on the foreign policy front what they are losing on the domestic one. And this is very dangerous. There is no doubt that the United States and its Western allies are actively trying to slow down development and undermine the stability of our countries.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 18:46 utc | 140

vk is often correct about a number of things, but sadly quite wrong about the evidence for a natural evolution origin for SARS-CoV-2. While it is a fact that researchers had identified a natural virus, RaTG13, that could possibly, given a couple hundred years, conceivably naturally evolve into SARS-CoV-2, no evidence has been found to show an evolutionary path in nature between the two.

No pangolins. No ferrets.

Overstating the evidence for the natural origin theory of SARS-CoV-2 does not help exonerate the Chinese, but rather weakens China's defense against accusations. At this point the natural evolution origin of the virus is far from proven. Trying to pretend that it is proven when clearly it is not only strengthens the most prominent counter-theories, and that most prominent counter-theory right now is the lab leak one.

Instead, the lab leak theory needs to be attacked at its weak points. Weak points like the fact that for a novel and unknown virus to leak from a lab then it is necessary for that lab to be doing secret work. Wuhan Institute of Virology wasn't doing secret work, and its records were openly examined. If the virus leaked from a lab then it must be a different lab, otherwise there would be records of samples of SARS-CoV-2 at WIV.

Of course, SARS-CoV-2 came from neither a lab leak nor natural evolution. It was a biological weapon used by the United States in an effort to cripple China's economy so that America could win the trade war that it was losing. It was an escalation of the trade war precisely as one would expect from America when it is losing. Conjuring evidence that doesn't exist for some other explanation does China no favors.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 6 2021 18:49 utc | 141

In this article by Stephen Karganovic, "Concerning the Folks Who Are Less Equal Than Others", the less equal folks under discussion could easily be substituted by the ordeal of African-Americans, thus proving the racism within the EU and its European Court of Human Rights. And since it makes such judgements at the behest of the Outlaw US Empire, we can see it remains as racist as ever despite the Wokeism raging within its borders. Such behavior by the EU raises numerous contradictions that have the potential to be fatal as it loses face and credibility with the majority of the world's nations. As with Nazis, who will want to trade with such people? China's famous for not attaching political strings to its trade agreements, but it has no obligation to engage in commerce with racist nations or blocs. And with the Euro-China trade agreement frozen in the EUP by its Nazi members, China might just say oh well, too bad for you, and walk away. Russia has a similar policy, and thus the EU risks becoming a Bantustan by choice. It appears that's where Professor Diesen sees the crisis undermining the EU arising over the next several years--will we see a German EUexit?

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 6 2021 19:03 utc | 142

@Bemildred #132
You said:

Let's face it, we live in a great neighborhood here, for us.

The great neighborhood exists because the US took all the good land and left the Canadians (literally) out in the cold, while taking huge swathes out of what used to be Mexico. Most of the SE, all of the West and significant parts of the central/southern US were once Mexico, for example.
But even then, the real reason why the US has had peace is because it was too busy profiting, selling arms to Europeans fighting each other.

That's why the EU was formed - to prevent that from ever happening again.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 18:28 utc | 138

Indeed. You are making my argument for me. We don't have any realistic foreign threats, aside from MAD. Nobody wants to invade us or pick a fight. Mostly, they would like us to go away, or at least behave better.

Posted by: Bemildred | Aug 6 2021 19:05 utc | 143

I have been taking 18,000 IU of Vitamin D every day and sitting out in the sun for a half hour most days for the past several months. I had my blood tested a couple of weeks ago. My Vitamin D level is 84 ng/mL, which is on the high end of optimal. Just what I was aiming for. Late last year, my Hba1c was just short of full-blown diabetes, at 6.5. Now, it's 5.8, nearly normal. A fungal infection in my toenails has cleared up. Because megadoses of Vitamin D reduce appetite, I have lost weight. The only bad effect I've noticed is diarrhea, but it is manageable.

Peopleshould be taking far more Vitamin D than the doctors are recommending.

Posted by: lysias | Aug 6 2021 19:11 utc | 144

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 6 2021 18:49 utc | 141

The pangolin is guaranteed. It is now certain it was not the last intermediary, but it is certain it was one of the intermediaries. From the way the SARS-CoV-2 connects with etc. etc. is also almost guaranteed the last intermediary was a rodent, a rodent that exists in large numbers and which frequently interacts with humans in south-center China.

We don't know how many intermediaries exist between the bat and the human. There probably were many. That's why it will take decades to discover the definite origin of the SARS-CoV-2.

It's not a question of exonerating China or not. It's a matter of science. The lab leak theory is an extraordinary hypothesis. Extraordinary hypothesis require extraordinary evidence.

From the mapped genome of the SARS-CoV-2 (released at January 30th, 2020), we know for sure it is not a bioweapon. It evolved naturally, with 100% certainty. Like I said before, it is very normal for pandemics/plagues to start with military personnel, as they are historically the most cosmopolitan portion of a given civilization (they travel the most to the most diverse places around the world). NATO soldiers travel to the most places of any other human being; they go to more places in five years than most people in a life time (even upper middle class members).

And, either way, who the Americans think they are to exonerate or blame China?

Posted by: vk | Aug 6 2021 19:26 utc | 145

Thanks for the report, lysias I appreciate that. (I’m going to 10,000 today with possible increase to 20,000 depending on my symptoms over the next several days.)

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Aug 6 2021 19:28 utc | 146

I hope this helps.
Posted by: juliania @ 75

Thanks it does. It is a very concise summary of a complex problem. I passed it on.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 6 2021 19:32 utc | 147

SpaceX has just stacked its flying grain silo "Starship" prototype on its first stage "Super Heavy".The Starship prototype has been tiled with its heat shield, so this might be test fit for a later orbital test.

There are those here who assert an orbital flight by Starship to be impossible. I must say it is exciting to watch things that are impossible when they happen.

Three and a quarter hour livestream from NASASpaceflight of the whole test assembly.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 6 2021 19:53 utc | 148

vk @145

Your 100% certainty lacks evidence. I won't bother asking for links because there are none.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 6 2021 20:05 utc | 149

julianaia@112...i suspect you missed my reply up thread. please check out: michael yerdon's video on i believe 'banned' videos. michael yerdon was VP for pfizer for 30yrs, & their head of research. he discuss ADE & Tcells in relation to the vaccines.

Posted by: emersonreturn | Aug 6 2021 20:13 utc | 150

Posted by: migueljose | Aug 6 2021 12:23 utc | 99

Interesting link to the Italian professor, detailed and academic, with an ending that calls for aperture, a truly difficult task.

Today I read a heading article in "El País" -our own Spanish New York Times-, an interview with the new Peruvian prime minister. What a great time reading how a scripted set of questions designed to corner Bellido ends up revealing the ignorance, racism and prepotence of the interviewer, and the paused, sharp and intelligent way in which Bellido handles the poor beginner journo. Enjoy if you read Spanish, a machine translation won't reflect the shades of racism and colonialism camouflaged with false "wokeness" like raising the gender weapon.

Entrevista Primer Ministro Perú.

Posted by: Paco | Aug 6 2021 20:23 utc | 151

I did see your comment, emersonreturn @ 150, and I seem to remember an interview with the previous pfizer VP a while back. Not sure what you mean by 'banned' videos, but I will see what I can find, thanks.

Posted by: juliania | Aug 6 2021 20:23 utc | 152

c1ue @113:


The mountains in Taiwan are tall but not extensive.
There would be no retreating there unless it was literally individual soldiers. Formed units or even guerrilla bands would stick out like a neon sign in a pine forest.

I've done some hiking and biking on the eastern side of Taiwan and there is plenty of room to hide a few hundred guerrillas there. That said, I don't think a few hundred guerrillas will discourage the mainlanders. I can't really imagine the guerrillas doing much anyway other than camping out. Any mainland policing forces that are stationed on the island would most likely just leave the kids LARPing as guerrillas alone until they get bored with it, tired of sleeping in the woods, and go home.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 6 2021 20:42 utc | 153

vk @ 104 Propagandists are and should be treated as military personnel, of a higher ranking than even a lieutenant. Western "journalists", influencers, and twitterists should be aware that their actions have consequences, and that they're fooling no one outside their radius. And that, obviously, includes the media moguls (including the owner of Twitter), which should be treated as personnel of the ranking of a general.
I agree content generating propagandist, search engine information bandits and access control deniers should be removed from the human race and transformed into the rats they are.

Clue 138 the US took all the good land ...but it does not now own it, all the land has been privatized.. without a nation state nothing could be privatized.


Willian Gruff @ 141.. It was a biological weapon used by the United States in an effort to cripple China's economy so that America could win the trade war that it was losing. Them be strong words.. the proof is still out.. but my money is bet on the multinational private parties, with interest to create markets for pharmaceuticals, They hide behind nation state sovereignty but they make their profits in private. .

Posted by: snake | Aug 6 2021 20:49 utc | 154

Sorry, c1ue @ 137 - I simply cannot follow the reasoning. You say 'early animal testing is meaningless', then get technical to describe the difference between an elephant and a tree. I'm not seeing the connection, but I am not a scientist. Nor am I seeing the difference between a doctor and a technician if the former is to be designated an alchemist. Oy.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alchemy

Alchemy definition is - a medieval chemical science and speculative philosophy aiming to achieve the transmutation of the base metals into gold, the discovery of a universal cure for disease, and the discovery of a means of indefinitely prolonging life.

I suspect you are having fun with my ignorance. (Darn those pointless liberal arts studies!)

Posted by: juliania | Aug 6 2021 20:50 utc | 155

snake @154: "...but my money is bet on the multinational private parties..."

That is not at all inconsistent with my perspective. The actually attack was doubtless carried out by a small group within the US government without the knowledge or sanction of the Chief Executive. Indeed, the CIA coordinates and communicates more with the private sector than it does with the US Executive Branch.

When I talk about empire, that empire is economic, not political. As such I know a bet against you on this would lose.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 6 2021 21:11 utc | 156

@juliania #155
The long and short of it is that early animal studies of a vaccine are in no way indicative of the final product.
Initial prototypes are educated guesses, but guesses nonetheless.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 21:31 utc | 157

David G Horsman @ 147 Glad to hear that, thanks!

emersonreturn @ 150 again, I'm better with transcripts, so I ddg'd and found a lovely looking blog - 'Red Sky in the Morning - Observations from the eNZ of the Earth' (kudos for blog title! I felt a kinship as NZ-I live in NM) with excerpts from an interview with Michael Yeadon. But I didn't go further down his list of 'lies' than the claim 'only in institutions' which certainly isn't the case. Since UCSF Medical videos early on it's been pretty clear that transmission is airborne, happens best in enclosed spaces, and I am big on masks in and out, not sure his claim that the virus doesn't have symptomless transmission is really correct either.

But thanks for the message; good to track that down in any case.

Posted by: juliania | Aug 6 2021 21:37 utc | 158

My question would then be, c1ue @ 157, has it been past practice to ignore animal subject trials with this result, and go on to human trials in such novel procedures? They were not guessing as to what happened in the second stage of those trials. They saw the results. In such a case, would it be prudent to continue with then the stages of trial we have seen, along with protections for the companies but none for the participants? The haste I understand, but these seem like huge corners to cut. Not to mention what has happened since with the (my term) demonization of the vaccine resistant.

I won't continue - apologies to all who are sick of the subject; I certainly understand where you are coming from.

Posted by: juliania | Aug 6 2021 21:48 utc | 159

Andrew Bacevich, Liberal, former US Army officer, writes a scathing attack on what he calls "Indispensable Nation Syndrome" or INS. But when he gets to discussing the Outlaw US Empire's wars, he utterly fails to denounce them for the primary reason they deserve renouncing--they're illegal and immoral. Yes, "They’ve killed lots of people, unsettling millions more." But not once is the fact mentioned that all of the Outlaw US Empire's military exhibitions since WW2's end are both illegal and immoral, and that every administration beginning with Truman's committed War Crimes on par with those of the Nazis. In other words, Bacevich's essay is absolutely worthless without admitting that INS is directly linked to massive crimes against humanity. After reading his writings for 20 years, I don't think he's capable of making such a confession, since during his "service" he violated his own oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. American Exceptionalism--INS--dates back to the Puritan Pilgrims whose own acts of barbarism made against those who literally saved their asses has never been admitted and apologized for.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 6 2021 22:01 utc | 160

VK wrote:

We don't know how many intermediaries exist between the bat and the human.
____________________________________________

There are millions of types viruses in the wild. The chances of finding an ancestor to SARS2 virus in the wild is improbable just given the numbers.
A virus found in the wild that has a very similar genome sequence to SARS2 is obviously a close relative and the odds are good that they have a common ancestry but the chance that one evolved from the other is slim to none. The two evolutionary branches could have diverged a century ago.
~
If you take samples of two of the variants of the virus that are circulating today would you be able to determine which is the antecedent of the other? No, because it is extremely unlikely that either is, but they both may have evolved from a common ancestor a year ago.

Posted by: jinn | Aug 6 2021 22:33 utc | 161

William Gruff @Aug6 18:49 #141:

Of course, SARS-CoV-2 came from neither a lab leak nor natural evolution. It was a biological weapon used by the United States in an effort to cripple China's economy so that America could win the trade war that it was losing.

This may well be (I too have suspicions about USA culpability) but lets not forget that:
  • Just increasing hate toward China is a 'win' for the anti-China crowd and the pointing fingers at China for the pandemic dovetails nicely with anti-China human rights propaganda (Hong Kong! Uighurs! Threats against Taiwan! Etc.);
  • USA was actually not unhappy at losing the trade war as long as USA oligarchs were doing well - they made huge profits on labor arbitrage as they supported China's "peaceful rise" - what USA is unhappy about is that China would not open up their economy and allow capitalist greed to undermine "socialism with Chinese characteristics";
  • Iran is also on the target list;
  • The failure of the West to make any real effort to fight the pandemic has allowed mutations that could lead to more severe forms of SARS-COV-2 (or mask deliberate, lab-created mutations): the West sent people home instead of to proper quarantine; Western contact tracing is a joke; Western early lifting of pandemic measures have allowed the Delta variant to spread.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 6 2021 22:53 utc | 162

William Gruff @Aug6 19:53 #148

Thanks for the link to SpaceX stacking video and reminder of the previous conversation at moa.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 6 2021 22:57 utc | 163

Bruised Northerner @ 129

By all means increase the D. Try to do that with sunshine as much as possible. Don’t know your latitude or age. For many sunshine will produce D doses even I would hesitate to recommend by the oral route. Overweight people need higher doses, if obese triple the dose for equivalent results.

Oral C is mostly pissed out past 2 grams daily. Even at that level will work better if spread over several times per day.

Read the FLCCC protocol for long haul. As good as any for post-vac. Quercitin is very active, has some of the properties of the prescription only meds on the list. Quercitin also available through food, a large red onion daily would take care of you. Some could eat that, I couldn’t. All dark veggies are good.

Posted by: One | Aug 6 2021 23:06 utc | 164

jinn @Aug6 22:33 #161

If SARS-COV-2 could be traced to an animal ancestor, I suspect it would've been done by now. AFAICT it doesn't get easier to find that ancestor over time.

Not finding that ancestor isn't conclusive but it does justify some degree of suspicion. A lab leak, intended or unintended, from a lab of ANY COUNTRY or group with a capable biolab cannot be ruled out. We know that the technology to make dna changes/inserts exists and such research has been going on for many years prior to this pandemic.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 6 2021 23:09 utc | 165

I just learned many hospitals and private corporations are suffering demonstrations and boycotts by their employees and service contractors over the issue of forced vaccination as a condition of employment. I rode by one hospital where 30 to 50 people were promoting human rights with anti vaccination right to work signs..

The governed in America are up in arms over digital being used as a means to deny Americans access to their once highly receptive government <=government claims the right to rule these people's lives, but it demands they assume the position before they government will respond to their needs.

No one can call most agencies of government (local, regional, state, national or International) without the call being converted to a web experience using a government specific browser <=supplied by a private profit making company. That web experience requires the caller to expose his/her entire personal history to the digital interface (no humans answer the phone anymore), and as well, the caller now forced to endure the government's website, must also expose personal data, the issue of concern and the circumstance of the caller to the public, all as a condition of communicating with government over the concern of interest to the governed.

My experience at Walmart has been if you don't use a digitally enabled electronic credit or debit card, you can not use their quick and easy electronic check out machines, instead you must stand in the only operating long line able to trade in cash for your check out.

At many grocery stores and building supply stores, it is necessary to use your digital card to check out.. They refuse to do business in cash.... because the store cannot sell or use your data.

Another issue gaining strong resistive ground is armed and dangerous government's use of threat and government agency rules to force things to come true; like private big pharma profit projections and an expensive to get degree just to get a job with an opportunity. Forced vaccination on those who work for the hospital or private institution is today's issue. At the point of rule of law and as a precondition to employment or as a condition to obtain or keep license to work, drive a car, or to exercise the right to travel on public transportation the likely unsafe vaccination is being forced on concerned and unwilling to be vaccinated persons. Seems the resistance groups are organizing worldwide, but no one is reporting it. The first ever government sponsored world wide coordinated effort to get everyone vaccinated provides evidence to prove the nation state is a private oligarch owned for profit tool, its a franchise system, controlled by franchise central. Its purpose is allow the Oligarch to get his or her way.

The world may soon witness its sleeping governed rise from its long slumber? The oligarch plan to use government to enforce vaccination by infringing human rights suggest a coming government tyranny to be managed by private Oligarch interest?

Posted by: snake | Aug 6 2021 23:51 utc | 166

Jackrabbit wrote:
If SARS-COV-2 could be traced to an animal ancestor, I suspect it would've been done by now.
_______________________________________________________________

Its been almost 20 years since SARS1 showed up and scientists are still debating its origins.

Posted by: jinn | Aug 7 2021 0:08 utc | 167

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 16:29 utc | 120

Read this. It should help.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/294852

"In previous clinical trials since the 1960’s [8] attempts to vaccinate against RSV, [9] Dengue, [10] SARS and MERS, the studies each failed during the animal phase. Cats, ferrets, monkeys, and rabbits each and every time experienced Antibody Dependent Enhancement (ADE), also known as pathogenic priming or a cytokine storm. This occurs when the immune system creates an uncontrolled and overwhelming inflammatory response upon being confronted with the pathogen in the real world, and the outcome, tragically, is death. The same immune system overreaction took place in a number of infants in clinical trials who received an attempted RSV shot, as well as some six hundred Filipino children who died following early vaccination against Dengue [11] and it remains a viable concern today. [12]"

What you find plausible doesn't turn out to matter here.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 0:56 utc | 168

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 6 2021 18:24 utc | 137
1% viability? Well that explains many things thank you.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 1:17 utc | 169

alaff #44

Thank you for the link to RIA FAN. Fascinating web of sedition revealed in that report.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 7 2021 1:21 utc | 170

Hi One @164

Thanks for the tips! I’ve used quercitin in the past and found it very helpful for problems with allergies. However the source of my allergy problems appeared to be very low vitamin D. This was about ten years ago. I started with oral supplementation but switched to sunshine, spending time in the sun as close to noon as I could (before 4 pm) in a two piece swimsuit. Very helpful!! I dropped the quercitin. I’m not overweight, but I’m just not getting outdoors with enough skin exposed these days. I’ve relied on supplements for the extra.

I have been spacing out my doses through the day, and I sure feel it when it’s time to reload!! Geez. What is going on? I start to sweat profusely, very unlike me, plus other flu symptoms. (Again, I felt the start of a little something prior to the jab.) Here in Canada, $4 ascorbic acid vitamin C is available from the dollar store so I’ll take my chances with that. I also take a whole food multivitamin every day, and recently I added astaxanthin, 4 mg daily. Today and yesterday I noticed a difference after taking it, but for cost reasons, I’m not prepared to increase the dose of that one unless I’m really desperate!

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Aug 7 2021 1:31 utc | 171

Because I’ve proudly boasted of my anti-vaxx beliefs, I thought I should say I am not convinced the vaccine is the sole cause of what I’m experiencing. I had onset of symptoms prior to the shot, and given that this was my second shot, I’m just not sick or debilitated enough to blame the vaccine. It’s certainly made an impact but my immune system was up to something prior. I’m just not of the school of thought that says just lie in bed and take an over-the-counter painkiller until it subsides. That, I think is dangerous (potentially). So. There. :-)

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Aug 7 2021 2:21 utc | 172

Does ivermectin prevent infection of SARS-CoV-2?

Scientists say YES. Ivermectin prevents infection. Ivermectin prevents becoming infected with SARS-CoV-2. And the scientists conclude this, in those very terms.

We the commenters find some nuance in the action of the disease, and where exactly "infection" can be said to occur. But from the scientists, in the end, the answer is yes.

~~

Does ivermectin stop the spread of the "novel coronavirus", and thus drive the virus to extinction?

Scientists say YES. Ivermectin stops the virus from spreading, by its action of stopping the virus from replicating in the human body and increasing the viral load within the human body - and thereby stopping the human body from emitting, through the breath, increased viral loads to infect others.

Thus, without infection, there is no transmission: contagion stops.

All of this is now attested by clinical trials. I have researched them, and I can cite them, and I will cite them, in further comments, but not now.

And maybe you don't need those cites. I needed them, and I have them, but one gets tired and so it can wait.

~~

All this talk about vaccines and their dubious nature: it can all become as moot as describing a philosophy or a political doctrine that one cares little for, since one will vote another way.

The vaccines, as we know, are almost blasphemously inadequate to the task presented by reality.

The antivirals, while they will never confer natural or acquired immunity, do manage to kick the can very elegantly down the road so that one doesn't have to risk one's life to the pretend vaccines of the west. One can wait for truth to surface incontestably and for reason to prevail. Or for the battle to show itself clear.

And so, for those who choose, the matter of the vaccines can become interesting but not critical, since one is on a preventive regimen and has the antidote at hand.

Posted by: Grieved | Aug 7 2021 2:35 utc | 173

@juliania #159
Short answer: absolutely.
Something like 10,000 mice have to die for any type of drug development. It can often be a lot more.
I repeat: the process of vaccine development has a lot more trial and error than it does precise targeting of a specific molecule.
Whether it is from theory, from a dart board, from rolling dice, whatever - any and every potential vaccine "molecule" has to be tested: to see if it kills the subject, to see if it confers immunity, to see the degree of immunity conferred, etc etc.
Merely saying that animal trials resulted in some or all of the animals dying is literally irrelevant since it happens every time. Even molecules which are actually not toxic, they will shoot up the mice with massive overdoses to see just how much is needed for adverse reactions to occur, and why.
This is why these anti-vax agitprop'ers are so insidiously smart: they know that most people have no idea just how actual development works, so they focus on irrelevant shit which is scary but completely tangential to the issue at hand.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 7 2021 2:43 utc | 174

@David G Horsman #168
There have been at least 300 million vaccine doses administered in the United States alone.
If ADE were really an issue with the COVID vaccine, we sould be seeing hundreds of thousands of hospitalizations and deaths.
We are not.
Therefore ADE with the present COVID vaccines is not an issue

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 7 2021 2:46 utc | 175

Grieved #89

@72 karlof1 @62 John Cleary

I have it on my list also to dive into that wondrous archive that, miraculously, the Graun is pursuing. What a trove. But I am always behind everyone else, I have no time - so anything you gentlemen have time to speak about would be wonderful to hear, and would not fall on deaf ears.

My two bob's worth is that if the Graun is running incessant reports like these then the City and its troubadores have a succession in mind and are telling the 'Queen who refuses to go', to p!ss off! and now! and give the trusted Charles a turn at the churn. Not a lot would change and yet it might keep the lice infested elite afloat for another decade or two. Nothing like a good coronation with its countless after parties to buoy up the elite and throw a crust to the plebeians of the UK. Beats a funeral party any day.

But then, I doubt the queen of the englanders could stomach the coronation of Charles and co., and is therefore likely to stay put and stare them all down.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 7 2021 3:04 utc | 176

Too many bozo, too little time,.

five liars clamoring to 'defend tw against mainland aggression'.

It isn’t about sending troops to Taiwan. It is about destroying China’s ability to land troops on Taiwan.

It never fails to amaze me the no of five liars, especially gringos , who wanna start ww3 to 'preserve democracy in tw'. [sic]

Wolf cries wolves again.

How many elected leaders have been ousted/assassinated by FUKUS since ww2 ?

When did China ever meddle in tw 'democracy',thats a five liars speciality.

Spare me that Wang Li Qiang CCP spy crap, even thinking tw laughed at that childish prank.

Listen up idiots.

China will intervene iff the green party go for independence.

Tsai and gang would only try their luck with sure US backing.

iOW,
sTop your shit stirring in tw straits, Get the hell out and nobody gets hurt.

Elementary Watson.
Why are whiteys so stupid ?

Posted by: denk | Aug 7 2021 3:13 utc | 177

vk #46

mRNA vaccines do work.

So does the battery on my mosquito zapper - until it runs out and the little bugs bite. The attenuation rate of this novel experimental vaccine in stage 3 trials on us lab rats is rapid by some accounts (assuming Israel is truthing for once).

Russia, China and Cuba make better batteries and vaccines :))

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 7 2021 3:17 utc | 178

Professor Dolores Cahill has some devastating critiques of mRNA vax here. But then she is only one of the most senior scientists in the field and recently retired to free up her speech.

If you listen carefully you just might detect a hint that the mRNA vax recipients might have a few years of litigation left in them before their distressing demises.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 7 2021 3:45 utc | 179

@ Posted by: Grieved | Aug 7 2021 2:35 utc | 173


Several weeks ago you proclaimed the Delta VOC was a nothing burger here in the USA, nothing to be concerned about. Upon what science did you base that claim? Do you still hold to that claim?

This partly why I no longer engage with you and some others on this subject. (Thanks to jinn for having the patience to counter your nonsense word-salad disinformation posts on the subject.)

I see unscientifically informed people here going on and on about what they have little understanding of, citing dubious sources and people of whom they have little to no science understanding.

Your words here in this regard are contrary to my understanding of the propagation of the buddhadharma. May you find peace N happiness. May all sentient beings find peace and happiness.

Posted by: suzan | Aug 7 2021 3:57 utc | 180

Been wondering about Abe's abrupt retirement on health issue.

His successor Suga seems to be fully onboard the ENA mark II.
Doesnt looks a happy camper to me, perhaps he found the head of his pet cat in the freezer one fine morning .
Message understood.

The jap 'defence' minister calls for the world to 'help defend' tw. [sic]

five liars led white countries and their satraps want the world to protect tw from mainland attack , which would come iff tw go for broke, which might happen only if Tsai is sure of FUKUS backup, which is hinted by Tokyo declaration that tw is its protectorate.....[sic]

Circular logic anyone ?

Provoke a reaction, scream murder, call for action.

Somebody has shot down Newton's law,
Every reaction calls for an action.

Standard FUKUS MO
Works like a charm since 1785
heheheheh

Posted by: denk | Aug 7 2021 4:06 utc | 181

@180 suzan

I had read that the Delta was a nothing burger, and I repeated that. I had a source for that, or I wouldn't have believed it - but I can't say if I cited that source. Often I do, often I don't.

Delta? It seems to me now to be a more virulent strain than it did then. It seems living proof of how well the virus has escaped the immunity of vaccines, since it seems to defeat at least one of them - I'm not sure which one. I don't follow the vaccines much, they seem chimerical to me, a ghost of the true problem.

If you know more, why not contribute to our understanding?

~~

I don't understand why you're engaging with me to tell me you're not engaging with me.

I never stopped engaging with you. Once, when we were discussing Tibet you supplied some information that filled a huge piece of a jigsaw puzzle for me, and resolved a personal anxiety I had held for several years. I've never stopped being grateful for that, and never will. I admire much about your comments.

I don't know what you want from me. You seem to want to treat the virus as a scientist, while I'm only a lay person, and I can only treat it from the evidence I discover. And the more I study scientists, the more I understand that evidence is precisely how they operate, how science operates.

Usually I cite sources. If they're dubious, refute them, not me.

If what I say is word salad, blow it away with truth.

Posted by: Grieved | Aug 7 2021 4:33 utc | 182

Mike Yeadon apparently isn't what he seems.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/186bOsOXxRCU-RggHLnQxRzoNLrqd9URdDCwuCtYkkyo/edit

Posted by: jazz | Aug 7 2021 4:48 utc | 183

Posted by: Grieved | Aug 7 2021 4:33 utc | 182

Delta evolved in India and came to the UK, USA and elsewhere via jet. Delta was not a consequence of vaccine escape.

Now that ignorant people in the USA are getting jabs but not wearing masks to protect from infection from Delta, we now face viral escape since it takes two jabs and then 2 to 3 weeks for immunity to arise as this lays the groundwork for viral escape.

This is idiocy. I had to replace a pair of shoes yesterday and encountered a swarm of people in the store, very few of whom were wearing masks other than the sales clerks.

This is not going to get better until it gets worse, with young people on front line.

You can take your privileged acquired low cost meds and call for everyone to do the same but this is bourgeois escape from reality. There are very few anti viral meds and they need be used by the sick, not by rich people with access to vaccines as preventatives. If you have a thing against big pharma, then have the guts to confront it and don’t go running to developing countries’ pharma supplies for succor.

Posted by: suzan | Aug 7 2021 5:01 utc | 184

@ 184 suzan... your last paragraph seems a tad harsh... i suspect ivermectin is cheap to produce and also easy to produce.. the fact this option is not being offered to westerners is no reason to condemn someone who wants to take it.. for all i know ivermectin is being mass produced in india, or china... my thing about this covid dynamic is to work towards being respectful of others regardless of the attachment they express towards a particular view.. i know this is hard to do, so i understand when others lose it on others - to a point.. but for anyone working at being a practicing buddha, it doesn't add up.. i generally appreciate the conversations that go on between people here at moa given the respect and kindness they show one another... i admire both you and grieved and figure people can agree to disagree without getting too bogged down in a particular viewpoint...

@ 183 jazz.. nice name, lol... thanks for the link...

Posted by: james | Aug 7 2021 5:36 utc | 185

Posted by: james | Aug 7 2021 5:36 utc | 185

The point is, if this med is an anti-viral as suspected then it should not be used by rich people as a prophelactive to avoid perceived harms from a vaccine which their compatriots are taking to avoid sickness from the pandemic. Is should be used as an anti-viral to save people with viral infections. As I said earlier, these things escape use just as bacteria escape antibiotics so must be used judiciously. Prudence in usage should be the guiding light, not who can buy it for whatever reason.

That may sound harsh indeed, but it is reality, no? When has reality not slapped you in the face? The rich and privileged need not endure what the rest endure. When they endure what the rest endures then change happens.

I

Posted by: suzan | Aug 7 2021 6:07 utc | 186

1)Sars-COV-2 was present in Europe before the first cases were identified in Wuhan

2) World Military Games

3) Nobody in their right mind would target themselves with a bioweapon with serious runaway potential, not even on grounds of superior containment and quarantine capacity.

4) The general belief regarding mers/sars was that eastern asians were particularly vulnerable to it.

5) The impact of COVID-19 on the population largely fits a malthusian, private-sector-first narrative

6) The impact of COVID-19 on capitalist economies largely fits the interests of concentrated capital, as opposed to the interests of small business.

P.S.: I tried to put a source link for 1, but I'm getting "session expired". What session??

Posted by: Misotheist | Aug 7 2021 10:26 utc | 187

The asylum case of Timanovskaya is highly predictable. The threat to Belarus is real and so is its internal repression. The opportunity for the Olympics to score political points is also high so I expect a lot of hidding activity contacting athletes and bribing them anyway possible if they need the extra incentive. I also find it hard to imagine anyone undertaking such an action on the spur of the moment since you've got family at home and all that so it requires coordinated action. Also because I'm prejudiced I always assume the british are behind it.
Which brings us to the subject of the strangely disappearing chocolate in our corner cupboard.

A case which does baffle me is the Iranian plan to bomb a MEK conference in Paris for which several people were convicted and for which huge amounts of proof were produced. It seems so out of character for Iran to do that. Anyone know more about that?

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Aug 7 2021 10:27 utc | 188

hungercampaigns: https://de.rt.com/inland/122011-medienbericht-ab-herbst-impfnachweis-und/

Posted by: e | Aug 7 2021 10:58 utc | 189

Remove any preconceived ideas from your mind on the origin of the virus..

One word which undoubtedly eliminates the possibility of "natural evolution"
-PATENTS

Watch. Keep an open mind. Follow up research.

Sources cited by lawyer in video
https://t.co/jGOEq0COZT

Posted by: Fbomb | Aug 7 2021 12:52 utc | 190

@misotheist, 187

1)Sars-COV-2 was present in Europe before the first cases were identified in Wuhan

Unexpected detection of SARS.CoV-2antibodies in the pre pandemic period in Italy. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0300891620974755

2) World Military Games

July 2019 - Fort Detrick is closed because of egregious safety failures including the failure to contain engineered biopathogens and the failure to dispose safely of contaminated waste. https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2019/08/08/the-cdc-shut-down-an-army-lab-thats-working-on-an-ebola-vaccine/
June-July 2019 - illness and fatalities caused by unknown pathogen in area surrounding Fort Detrick. This area covers army camps. For example, residents die of unusual pneumonia in a nursing home an hour's drive from Fort Detrick. https://www.mcknights.com/news/mystery-grows-as-3rd-resident-dies-from-still-unidentified-respiratory-illness/.
September 2019 blood samples collected in Italy from September 2019 show presences of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0300891620974755.
October 18-27  2019 - the World Military Games at Wuhan. US sent a 300-strong contingent
October 25 2019 - Five contestants at the Military Games developed a fever and were taken to an infectious-diseases hospital for treatment before being airlifted back to the US.
The military contestants then carried the virus back to their own countries. https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3932712

4) The general belief regarding mers/sars was that eastern asians were particularly vulnerable to it.

"And advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool." PNAC, "Rebuilding America's Defenses", p. 60.

Posted by: cirsium | Aug 7 2021 13:16 utc | 191

Grieved @173 wrote:

Thus, without infection, there is no transmission: contagion stops.
All of this is now attested by clinical trials. I have researched them, and I can cite them, and I will cite them, in further comments, but not now.
______________________________________________________

There are no clinical trials that show Ivermectin prevents infection.
That claim on its face is absurd:

One mechanism by which Ivermectin is believed to work is inside the cell. In other words, the cell (and the person) first has to be infected for Ivermectin to do anything.

Infection is very difficult if not impossible to measure in vivo. There are studies that provide evidence that with Ivermectin prophylaxis fewer people develop signs of infection. At best it may be said that ivermectin prophylaxis reduces detectable clinical manifestations of covid in some people. That is, it may stop the infection at an earlier stage. `One might assume that contagion can only occur at the point where infection is detectable, but even that is not known and not been studied so there is no way to say anything meaningful. The studies that looked at Ivermectin prophylaxis generally defined "infection" as when showing symptoms then being tested and testing positive. Many mild infections could be missed.

No study has shown Ivermectin to be 100% effective.

https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/fulltext/2021/08000/ivermectin_for_prevention_and_treatment_of.7.aspx


Posted by: jinn | Aug 7 2021 13:29 utc | 192

The point is, if this med is an anti-viral as suspected then it should not be used by rich people as a prophelactive to avoid perceived harms from a vaccine which their compatriots are taking to avoid sickness from the pandemic.
Posted by: suzan | Aug 7 2021 6:07 utc | 186

What is this crap? Woke fakeness? Or just plain trolling?

Posted by: BM | Aug 7 2021 14:06 utc | 193

@185 James
Here Here
Well said James

Posted by: ld | Aug 7 2021 14:16 utc | 194

Does ivermectin prevent infection of SARS-CoV-2?
...
All of this is now attested by clinical trials. I have researched them, and I can cite them, and I will cite them, in further comments, but not now.
Posted by: Grieved | Aug 7 2021 2:35 utc | 173

All ivermectin scientific studies in one place, updated in real-time: https://c19ivermectin.com/

The anti-ivermectin trolls are hyper-active just now - probably because public suspicions of vaccines are taking seed too fast, while the evidence in favour of ivermectin is unassailable.

IGNORE ALL THE ANTI-IVERMECTIN TROLLS, DON'T FEED THEM

Note: The attacks and the assertions of the anti-ivermectin trolls bear all the usual characteristics and hallmarks of trolls. Observe and ye shall see.

Posted by: BM | Aug 7 2021 14:24 utc | 195

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/294852
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 0:56 utc | 168

Thanks for that David, it's a truly wonderful and well thought out article. Highly recommended.

Posted by: BM | Aug 7 2021 14:30 utc | 196

Yesterday, California had 2408 non-ICU COVID hospitalizations.
Today it has 4196.

Yesterday, California documented 460 ICU cases, today it has 900.

The peak in summer 2020 saw ~5000 non-ICU COVID hospitalization cases and 2000 ICU hospitalizations, but that growth curve was much slower than this one and also started at a higher base (2000 vs. 500-750 non-ICU hospitalizations and 1000 vs. 300-400 ICU hospitalizations).

Newsom must be wearing brown pants daily - another lockdown will guarantee he loses the recall election, particularly since so much focus was placed on the vaccine fixing the problem.
65% of Californians have gotten 1 dose, 53% are fully vaccinated - one of the top rates among states in the US.

Its a loooooong way to September 14 (the recall election).

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 7 2021 15:16 utc | 197

The antivirals, while they will never confer natural or acquired immunity
Posted by: Grieved | Aug 7 2021 2:35 utc | 173

True in the literal sense, but not true in real practice. Taking antivirals such as Andrographis paniculata or Phyllanthus amarus (or dozens of other examples) gives you the chance to experience exposure to the virus without falling ill, or only being very mildly affected. That light exposure to the virus - without the heavy viral load associated with a full infection - allows the immune system to imprint itself on the virus and build up specific immune response capabilities - which it certainly does do, and which will help the immune system respond to the virus on the next viral exposure (even if on that subsequent occasion you are maybe not taking the antivirals).

The more exposure you have to the virus, the more opportunities you have to build up and reinforce your immunity to it. If you are meanwhile taking antivirals and taking measures to support your immune system (such as vitamin D, etc), then you can do so at very low health-cost, i.e. without severe infection.

Every time the virus enters your body*, your immune system gets a chance to reinforce an immune response, regardless of whether the event develops into an infection or not. (Indeed, even non-viable viral detritus, such as non-infectious shedding of viral fragments from the late stages of someone else's infection) can trigger an immune response, and hence some measure of immunity development).

* The simple fact of a virus entering your body does not of itself constitute infection. In the science of infectology there are specific definitions of all concepts such as terms such as infection, epidemic, pandemic, infectivity, disease, etc. Unfortunately the world - including, scandalously, "science" and many conformist scientists - have distorted and twisted these definitions ever since the start of the covid19 saga and even before (the criminal WHO change in definition of epidemic and pandemic was made if I remember correctly in 2019, and without those changes the covid19 saga could never have been defined as a pandemic) so that their usage no longer conforms to the requirements of scientific study, and their usage becomes infantile babble. There can by definition be no disease, for example, if there are no symptoms. The effects of this issue on the covid19 saga are extremely deep and pervasive.

Posted by: BM | Aug 7 2021 15:20 utc | 198

Exiled to Earth
Witness to the absence of souls or sanity
to a withering world
To live in sacred places
while the smell of death permeates the air

Innocent of malice
The Unbeheld
they see the Assassin's heart
His message of corruption
Rage burns
invoking praises to the Harbinger of Death

The divine engineers
made up a lie we can believe in
Admire their handiwork
murdered hope

The Executioner approaches
The Earthborne fall beneath his blade
Unborn
still innocent
The garden has been planted
Seeded with love and hope and unity
and words of inspiration
carry our breath into the light

We linger
taking refuge behind their sacred wing
Touching memories awake
into our reflection
we are born again

Posted by: ld | Aug 7 2021 15:28 utc | 199

Ivermectin does appear in US NIH COVID19 treatment guidelines (Section Antiviral Drugs That Are Approved or Under Evaluation for the Treatment of COVID-19 > Ivermectin). In the summary, it says:

Ivermectin

* There is insufficient evidence for the Panel to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19. Results from adequately powered, well-designed, and well-conducted clinical trials are needed to provide more specific, evidence-based guidance on the role of ivermectin in the treatment of COVID-19.

Posted by: LuRenJia | Aug 7 2021 15:32 utc | 200

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