Open Thread 2021-059
News & views ...
Posted by b on August 5, 2021 at 13:15 UTC | Permalink
« previous pagePosted by: vk | Aug 6 2021 19:26 utc | 145
Thanks for clarifying "takes ten years", field research can take years if the mammalian host origin is out in the wild. If we find it at all. Anyway that was a more balanced (or just clearer) take.
But... there's always a but.
I must again protest that there is nothing at all unusual or "exceptional" about lab leaks. I do agree that evidence is what is relevant.
BTW. I think the new field data collected on bats being discussed here somehow misses the point. This is really great stuff. We should be doing similar studies globally.
China and many countries world wide have in fact been quite cooperative in coordinating research in this and other diseases. I mean ignoring the recent political nature of Covid.
That has always been a dual edged sword dating back to measles and polio where bad intent is involved. However the basic argument against level 4 labs doing gain of function research assumes that well intentioned labs and staff will have leaks. It's like nukes, it only takes one to ruin your whole day.
Yes sir/madam field research of any complete sort on bat viruses alone would take ten years. That doesn't mean you wouldn't get useful information early in the process. Anyway, I thought it was great work that they did.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 15:48 utc | 202
@ Grieved, Karlof1, Juliania questions regarding covid19 immunity, infection, masks etc
I can highly recommend reading a few articles on the site infekt.ch (in German, but I am sure that presents little challenge to you three) to help you understand many of the questions you have been musing on recently in this and earlier threads.
Infekt.ch is run by the head of Infectology and Virology at St Gallen hospital in Switzerland, Prof Dr Pietro Vernazza; some of the articles are by him, some by various members of his staff. I have already referenced and recommended this site on MoA many times since April 2020. The scientific and informational standard of the articles is very high, yet they are also easy to understand. Prof Vernazza is highly rational and reasonable in every respects, and a very sound scientist. He is obviously somewhat biased towards establishment viewpoints (for example his positive inclination, as an infectologist, towards vaccination), but he never lets that poison his analysis and without hesitation argues against widely accepted notions when the science is clear on the matter. His analysis have stood remarkably well over the course of the covid19 saga, even though scientific knowlege of that disease has changed tremendously over the period. All his articles are based very solidly on scientific evidence, applied with common sense.
Here are some links which are particularly relevant to many of the questions you have raised on Covid in this and the last thread (including the two cited in #198 above):
https://infekt.ch/2020/09/haben-viele-menschen-bereits-eine-immunitaet-gegen-covid/
https://infekt.ch/2021/06/brief-an-einen-sohn/
https://infekt.ch/2020/11/kinder-in-coronazeiten/
https://infekt.ch/2020/07/angeborene-immunitaet-gegen-coronavirus-moeglicher-ansatz-fuer-therapie/
https://infekt.ch/2020/04/hinterlaesst-coronavirus-eine-immunitaet/
https://infekt.ch/2020/09/zweite-covid-19-welle-wirklich/
https://infekt.ch/2020/07/sind-es-doch-10x-mehr-covid-19-faelle/
And especially for you @ Karlof1:
https://infekt.ch/2020/04/atemschutzmasken-fuer-alle-medienhype-oder-unverzichtbar/
https://infekt.ch/2020/05/abstand-halten-warum-und-wieviel/
https://infekt.ch/2021/02/covid-impfung-wie-wichtig-ist-der-abstand/
Posted by: BM | Aug 7 2021 15:54 utc | 203
As a foot note, vk @ 145: From the mapped genome of the SARS-CoV-2 (released at January 30th, 2020)
This is yet another hotly contested claim. In simple terms, they plugged in their unique Covid2 sequences into an existing template genome they use. That's the claim, I'll try to find it.
IN RELATED NEWS. Did you hear that the human genome has been sequenced? The work has finally been completed. This is AWESOME news!
WTF? You thought it already was? Yeah, me too. When the Human Genome Project was completed right?
Well that wasn't exactly true. It was mostly complete. The important part were. It was a little over my head but anyways the project continued and we at last have a very complete analysis.
Keep in mind that there isn't some exact DNA sequence for "human". Each of us is unique (usually) and I understand our diversity was part of the complexity of completing the work.
More good news folks. Cheer up.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 15:58 utc | 204
Prophelactive?
Posted by: john | Aug 7 2021 15:38 utc | 201
Ha ha, appropriate, thanks for that John. And yes, that one is definitely very selective with the truth. Thanks for spelling out the key data.
Posted by: BM | Aug 7 2021 16:01 utc | 205
@ 186 suzan... okay.. thanks.. yeah - reality is always slapping me in the face! let me be blunt.. i consider myself ignorant... i see many people, including apparent authorities taking strong positions on both sides of this covid divide and on some level i think it is still too soon to know with any real authority where all this is headed.. so, i like it when others are respectful of different positions on all of this.. but remember - i am ignorant when it comes to all the ins and outs and i am not pushing any particular angle.. i really think we are in a really divisive place right now and we need less, as opposed to more divisiveness...i also see and understand peoples attachment to certain positions.. basically i have given up talking about covid and the in's and out's of the vaccines and etc.. i see it as a losing proposition! but i have said a wee bit here which i kind of regret!
@ Id.... thanks and for your ongoing poetry too which i enjoy!
Posted by: james | Aug 7 2021 16:06 utc | 206
@198 BM
Thanks for that. This is a thing I've been wondering, if there's a way to get exposed to the virus enough to develop natural immunity, but without going under a full-blown "infection" - and I agree, that's tricky word.
I conclude at present that being "infected" with SARS-CoV-2 is the point at which the viral load is on the increase rather than diminishing. The virus does harm by replicating, and as the viral load increases, further damage is being done to the body, as well as the person's breath becoming more saturated with virus being breathed out to infect others.
~~
There are now several trials showing that ivermectin does in fact reduce viral load, and concomitantly reduce the associated symptoms. And there are several studies that show ivermectin acts to prevent infection to a highly successful degree, such that across a large group of people - a city, say - the reduction in caseload is upwards of 75% reduction, with a meta-analysis average of around 85%, I believe - and this comes from some results being in the 90's percentiles of reduction.
I want to cite some of these trials to demonstrate the claims I'm making.
I used the LazyWeb search engine, and queried "ivermectin viral load" and "ivermectin prevent infection" to find most of the trials I've looked at, and anyone can do the same and get the same sources, I imagine. I'm only going to cite a few things.
~~
Viral Load.
One study with hamsters found that ivermectin diminished the physical effects of the SARS-CoV-2 disease, but did not reduce the viral load in either group, with or without ivermectin treatment - which the researchers called "surprising". We have to note that.
However, every other study I looked at found a reduced viral load from ivermectin, including this one published in the American Journal of Therapeutics that used mice.
And this one was a double-blinded trial and concluded:
There were significantly lower viral loads and viable cultures in the ivermectin group, which could lead to shortening isolation time in these patients.
~~
Prevent Infection.
The above trials were on patients already infected with the disease. What about prevention?
This case-control study in India concludes:
Two-dose ivermectin prophylaxis (AOR 0.27, 95% CI, 0.15–0.51) was associated with a 73% reduction of SARS-CoV-2 infection among healthcare workers for the following month. [my emphasis]
As an aside, what are we laypersons to do when the medical scientists themselves use such words as "infected" to describe the difference between a person who has succumbed to the effects of the coronavirus, versus one who has not?
But moving on, the FLCCC study, published in the American Journal of Therapeutics, details the progress in the field of study:
Numerous prophylaxis trials demonstrate that regular ivermectin use leads to large reductions in transmission. Multiple, large “natural experiments” occurred in regions that initiated “ivermectin distribution” campaigns followed by tight, reproducible, temporally associated decreases in case counts and case fatality rates compared with nearby regions without such campaigns.
Posted by: Grieved | Aug 7 2021 16:11 utc | 207
I want to discuss evidence a little.
We see multiple calls for larger trails to take place for ivermectin, and those would always be valuable, of course. I saw a clip of Joe Rogan talking with Jimmy Dore saying that we can't make any claim yet for ivermectin because we need large clinical trials first.
But FLCCC in the cite I made @207 points out that huge, "natural experiments" are taking place all over the world, and they can be rigorously studied for reproducible results.
Dr. Tess Lawrie being interviewed by Bret Weinstein illustrated the "Evidence Pyramid" which shows the hierarchy of evidence in scientific and medical research, with the topmost categories carrying more weight than the bottommost, for example.
At the second-to-top layer of the pyramid are the double-blind, randomized clinical trials, such as numerous voices are wishing for to trial ivermectin.
But at the very top of the evidence pyramid, as the gold standard of evidence, are the meta-analyses of multiple studies and trials taken together and weighted across several parameters, producing aggregate results.
As already linked in this thread, this data is widely available, here and here, and ivermectin's efficacy in the aggregate is around 86% reduction for prophylaxis and 74% for early treatment.
So we now see very clearly in the highest grade of scientific evidence that ivermectin works to a high degree of efficacy to reduce viral load, diminish symptoms, reduce transmission and prevent infection of SARS-CoV-2.
Posted by: Grieved | Aug 7 2021 16:39 utc | 208
@ Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 15:58 utc | 204
The SARS-CoV-2 is fully mapped, and it is public information. Indeed, it's based on this public available genome that the lab leak theorists postulate it was artificially created (when, in reality, it is evidence for the lost rodent intermediary).
I'm a historian, not a microbiologist, so I can't judge the merits of the science per se, but I know how to verify sources and detect patterns of propaganda and forgery. If you take all the arguments used by the lab leak theorists, you can easily see they simply take evidence published that the virus evolved naturally and twist them to make the contrary argument (i.e. that it was fabricated artificially). They never come up with their own research: it is always them stealing raw evidence from Chinese research and putting their own plot twist. In science we must always give priority to the conclusions made by the scientist who made the experiment: armchair scientists throwing shit on the fan in interviews for the MSM won't make humanity progress.
Also, from the twist on the evidence itself, you can also clearly see that the lab leak theorists are practically advocating for Intelligent Design "theory". They do the same logical line of argument and use the same pattern of rhetoric the propagandists of Intelligent Design do. They're all Westerners, and Intelligent Design is a doctrine created by Christians.
There are ways and there are ways of putting the hypothesis of a lab leak on the table of the scientific arena. The way they're doing right now is not a scientific way; some of them are even violating the ethic code of science.
--//--
@ Posted by: Grieved | Aug 7 2021 16:11 utc | 207
I've already talked about it many times here. The FLCCC is not a valid source. They were the first to propagandize HCQ and, after HCQ was utterly invalidated, they jumped to the next miracle drug (Ivermectin).
There are a lot of corrupt doctors and even researchers around there in the West. Just because someone is waving his diploma in your face, doesn't mean everything he/she will talk is automatically true. Besides, doctors are not scientists: there's this myth doctors are researchers who read dozens of articles every day, when, in reality, they just follow the chart already established by Big Pharma and their Medicine Association of symptom→drug. Doctors are not intellectuals: they're just glorified technicians. You may have some luck with some doctor who continues to study and update himself, but that's not the case 99.999% of the time.
One last thing: the line of thought that some random drug may serve as a cure or treatment for another, completely unrelated disease, is wrong. This is Big Pharma line of thought: they put some drug to test to treat cancer or Alzheimer, and happen to discover that, statistically, it may be marketed as an antidepressant, as heart, diabetes or impotence drug because those were side effects of the drug (i.e. the drug was useless against cancer or Alzheimer). But, once a drug is tried and approved, it is not realistic to think it will be found to treat some other disease, that's not how drugs work. The exception to the rule are the anti-virals and antibiotics, which may be broad spectrum drugs.
So, no. Ivermectin is a vermifuge, and will never be useful against COVID-19. It is approved - alongside some 20 other drugs - for emergence treatment and trial research by the WHO, but that's only because it is a pandemic, which means desperate times. From people who were on the verge of death by COVID-19 that I managed to interview, it all indicates that the doctors are simply using anti-virals and antibiotics besides the ventilators to treat the disease. If the person is entering with suspicion of COVID-19 or an early case of the disease (i.e. the PCR test came out positive), then the doctors are mainly quarantining the patients and waiting for some two months to see if he/she will develop the graver forms of the disease, so no Ivermectin (which have grave, irreversible and even deadly side effects if taken in the quantity they would need to take).
If ADE were really an issue with the COVID vaccine, we sould be seeing hundreds of thousands of hospitalizations and deaths.
We are not.
Therefore ADE with the present COVID vaccines is not an issue
Posted by: c1ue | Aug 7 2021 2:46 utc | 175
From my understanding of how ADE works I have always expected it to appear 2 to 3 years later.
Which brings me to:
And so, for those who choose, the matter of the vaccines can become interesting but not critical, since one is on a preventive regimen and has the antidote at hand.
Posted by: Grieved | Aug 7 2021 2:35 utc | 173
I am totally with you on this except that I have so many family members taking the vaccine.
I have a theory that booster shots (always the objective) are going to cause ADE and adverse events. Either way each and every shot is toxic.
Clue, I think about 90,000 US citizens have died from the vaccine based on a reported 9K and a Harvard study.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 16:58 utc | 210
Grieved 207 208
Thanks for links.
In this evolving psyop everyone and everything is suspect and I have been wondering about the effectiveness of Ivermectin.
I am resistant to their jab and am fine being ostracized to an extent so if there is more than Vitamin D out there I am all for it.
I am ready to march if need be.
James Thank you for your kind words.
Posted by: ld | Aug 7 2021 17:03 utc | 211
"Merely saying that animal trials resulted in some or all of the animals dying is literally irrelevant since it happens every time" - clue @ 174
That is a trivial irrelevancy.
That is misrepresenting the work and results. In a serious attempt to develop a vaccine these results ended the animal trials. They don't work and are a huge risk.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 17:07 utc | 212
@cirsium, 191.
Exactly.
I have read (papers) about France, and heard (rumour) about Spain, Italy I hadn't as much info on.
I am not going to draw any conclusions, I think the items are enough.
If origins are to be traced, time of first recorded takes precedence over location.
Posted by: Misotheist | Aug 7 2021 17:07 utc | 213
For those who are concerned about long lasting toxic effects of the vaccines, may I suggest intermittent fasting? Before I was injected for the first time, I checked Dr. Mercola’s website for tips for those who can’t avoid vaccination. He mentioned this. I have used fasting in previous years, and can attest that it really does trigger the body’s regenerative processes. Make sure to take high-quality salt, though — I did become very hyponatremic for a while (sometimes doctor’s supervision is not such a bad thing!! I did have a doctor’s guidance for that whole quercitin/allergies/vitamin D situation I mentioned in a previous post.)
After Google searching astaxanthin and discovering it can prevent cytokine storm, it gradually dawned on me that I may have actually been exposed to/ caught Sars-Cov2 prior to my second jab.... I’d been taking the approach of Sigmund Freud, “sometimes laryngitis is just laryngitis”... I admit, I still haven’t quite come to acceptance of that but I am staying in my home (not like I feel like being out anyway!!) and I have a new appreciation for the public health officials. The skin around my prick is still pink and tender 3 days after the shot, and I sweat like crazy when my vitamins start to wear off. (Withdrawal?? I must be addicted!! Just kidding.) Early this morning my lungs started to hurt, too. First time I had any of the more traditional COVID symptoms. So - I’m on 4,000 IUs of vitamin D + 2,000 mgs vitamin C every 4 hours or so (reduced the C a little so I don’t run out too fast while I’m isolating.) Plus my daily multivitamin and the astaxanthin and I took a 50 billion probiotic capsule early this AM. I’ll try not to spam while I’m stuck in my room and/or disinfecting various surfaces and/or washing laundry in my apartment sink and other such chores.
Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Aug 7 2021 17:21 utc | 214
By the way, I wanted to recommend some writing by Heather Heying. She is the other half of the Dark Horse evolutionary biologists. She's not exactly in the shadow of Bret Weinstein during the podcasts, but she often defers to him to riff on a thing, which he does very well. They're a well matched couple, and both are completely grounded in scientific process.
Heying has a substack where she has started writing, called Natural Selections, of course. I already recommended the large essay found there on driving the virus extinct, that she and Weinstein co-authored, but I recently read her solo work, Fact Checkers Aren't Scientists:
I propose that another resolution of the Fermi paradox is this: as a world becomes more populous and complicated, fact checkers replace scientists as arbiters of truth. The population thus forgets what science is (or they never learned it), leaving that world bereft of the ability to innovate and discern truth. People in that world will find their horizons shrinking, quite literally, and will never find themselves out among the stars.
It's a beguiling study of contemporary society, in which, as she says, fact-checkers aren't scientists, and too often they're censors.
Heying writes well, and with a calm, progressive logic that reminds me of Caitlin Johnstone, with the addition of scientific grip. I wanted to share her writing, and I hope you enjoy the article.
Posted by: Grieved | Aug 7 2021 17:25 utc | 215
"3) Nobody in their right mind would target themselves with a bioweapon with serious runaway potential, not even on grounds of superior containment and quarantine capacity."
Cui bono?
That is an excellent point regarding the effective use of many bioweapons.
Big pharma and the people that own the thousands of existing patents on Covid19, including the cures, have motive and opportunity to release this virus.
It isn't deadly to them essentially. We are talking billions of dollars and long term as well for Pfizer and Moderna.
There is a mountain of evidence for a RICO case. That will never happen.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 17:29 utc | 216
Grieved wrote:
This case-control study in India concludes:
Two-dose ivermectin prophylaxis (AOR 0.27, 95% CI, 0.15–0.51) was associated with a 73% reduction of SARS-CoV-2 infection among healthcare workers for the following month
______________________________________________________________
The study states PCR testing positive was used to define a "case"
The raw numbers can be found here:
https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0247163.t002
You can see that 35% of those taking the Ivermectin prophylaxis tested positive while 57% of those who did not tested positive.
So that is evidence that Ivermectin had some benefit.
I'm not sure how they arrived at "associated with a 73% reduction" but it should be clear to everyone that Ivermectin does not "prevent infection".
Posted by: jinn | Aug 7 2021 17:34 utc | 217
P.S.: I tried to put a source link for 1, but I'm getting "session expired". What session??
Posted by: Misotheist | Aug 7 2021 10:26 utc | 187
On mobile android, hit to refresh the page. It works on Firefox.
A session is your time spent posting comments on a page. Like a user login but not.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 17:35 utc | 218
@214 Bruised Northerner
FLCCC are saying that ivermectin can be of use to people who are vaccinated also. I can't find that actual claim right now, you'll have to surf the website, which you might want to do anyway. It's most effective at the early stage of the disease.
You might find a local doctor who prescribes it - they may be more common than currently believed, but asking around seems to uncover them.
Posted by: Grieved | Aug 7 2021 17:37 utc | 219
Oops.
Posted by: Misotheist | Aug 7 2021 10:26 utc | 187
On mobile android, hit (elipse) (refresh circle with arrow) to refresh the page. It works on Firefox.
A session is your time spent posting comments on a page. Like a user login but not.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 17:38 utc | 220
Thanks Grieved for the recommendation. Sometimes there is a fine line between nutraceuticals and pharmaceuticals but I try to stick with the natural stuff, no matter what. It’s just a difference in fundamentals or something. So I’m going to stick it out for now. I would like to have some eucalyptus oil, which I used for chest congestion before. There are so many choices, aren’t there? I know someone who always relies on olive leaf extract to battle infections, and another who is a faithful consumer of oil of oregano at the first sign of one.
Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Aug 7 2021 17:48 utc | 221
Bill Melugin @BillFOXLA
NEW: The city of McAllen, TX says the federal government has released over 7,000 COVID positive migrants into their city since February, including over 1,500 new infected migrants in just the *last week alone*. A local state of disaster in McAllen has been declared.
@FoxNews
https://twitter.com/BillFOXLA/status/1422978791723487232
Posted by: Mao | Aug 7 2021 17:51 utc | 222
"No study has shown Ivermectin to be 100% effective."
Posted by: jinn | Aug 7 2021 13:29 utc | 192
That's true but doesn't detract from its shown benifits. You are absolutely right that Ivermectin is to treat infection and encourage natural immunity, not prevent infection.
Nevertheless it also reduces how contagious you are. It isn't perfect, just superior to the vaccines.
Covid19 is endemic in North America and this is a good strategy.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 18:00 utc | 223
BM @ 198 "Unfortunately the world - including, scandalously, "science" and many conformist scientists - have distorted and twisted these definitions ever since the start of the covid19 saga and even before (the criminal WHO change in definition of epidemic and pandemic was made if I remember correctly in 2019, and without those changes the covid19 saga could never have been defined as a pandemic) so that their usage no longer conforms to the requirements of scientific study, and their usage becomes infantile babble"
Thanks for that important point that has existed since the WHO chose propaganda over science.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 18:25 utc | 224
Posted by: vk | Aug 7 2021 16:45 utc | 209
Thanks VK I think your cautions are well advised. At first this was a big problem with Ivermectin. There were mixed study results once they started. B posted one of them here.
As a rule of thumb what do you think of relying on meta studies?
India's claims were problematic, but as mentioned above we can approach this similarly to cancer studies and gain valuable evidence regarding actual use.
It all takes time as you say. It's certainly worth doing.
Personally I very much need answers on this given the multiple comorbidities within my family group and extended family.
I am looking for any evidence against it and am open to it.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 18:54 utc | 225
"Pandemic Shows China Bests US" Finnian Cunningham reams every aspect of the Outlaw US Empire--culture, economics, values, and basic level of human intelligence--all richly deserved:
"Any objective person looking at the data would therefore have to conclude that there is something hugely significant about the relative performances of the governing systems in both countries. Empirically, in managing a massive public health crisis, China has wiped the floor with the US [Link at original]."
Now warmed up, Cunningham goes off:
"Again, this can be seen currently in the way China is mobilising resources to contain deadly new variants of the virus. The lockdowns, tracing, isolation and mask-wearing are proven to be effective in defeating the virus. But that response is made possible because China's government provides the financial and material resources to help the public cooperate. Free accommodation, food and other essentials are generously supplied to families so that they can comply with onerous restrictions.
"By contrast, the United States is witnessing a non-stop disaster. There, the capitalist, oligarchic system completely disincentives public cooperation to help beat the pandemic. Yes, there have been some government handouts to workers and the unemployed.
"But the response is paltry. By and large, working Americans can't afford isolation and lockdowns because they are expected to bear the costs, which in a profit-above-all system does not make it feasible to implement an effective strategy to contain the disease.
"Despite the resurgence of infections and deaths from the new Delta variant of the virus, the Biden administration and many state governments are rushing to end lockdowns and the wearing of masks. They are in denial. Why? Because the American capitalist system cannot tolerate an effective public health strategy. That fundamental contradiction is driving the country in the wrong direction in terms of defeating the pandemic. The deaths, sickness, infections, social impact will only get worse.
"There is another factor: the basic wrongheadedness of American political culture. The vastly overrated importance of 'individual freedom' feeds into an irrational mentality whereby many Americans think it is their 'duty' to distrust concepts like collective action, public good, and even scientific evidence that there is a deadly disease that needs to be managed.
"There are a lot of US politicians and citizens who are frankly deluded and deranged. To the point where they think wearing masks is a communist conspiracy to oppress them. No wonder the pandemic is hanging over the United States like doomsday when so many of its people refuse to get vaccinated or wear masks."
My wife and I are aghast at what we're seeing--a complete abdication of common sense and personal & social responsibility, which is reflected in the above citation. The BigLie Establishment Narrative that getting vaccinated will make you immune is a huge crime every bit as vicious as Trump's Do Nothing Policy. It's goddamned fucking clear that there's ZERO immunity to be had with this virus and its variants, and the best vaccines can do is mitigate the disease's effects, about on par with ivermectin combined with heavy doses of vitamin-D.
The Biden team and Congress seem all gung-ho to beat up on Russia and China. But if they don't change their path, they won't stand a chance as the Empire of Chaos engulfs itself and the nation continues its descent to Third-World status.
@David G. Horsman, @216
Thanks for the tips.
I understand what you're saying, but I think you're (unwittingly?) sneaking two different referents for "themselves" in your interpretation: IF (very big if) it was intentionally released, the party under whose agency the release is undertaken is not, strictly speaking, the same party upon which it is released.
Posted by: Misotheist | Aug 7 2021 19:24 utc | 227
thousands in the streets in France protesting Covid mandates around the globe ? the war between the governed and the private investor owned, politician operated, nation states continues ..many of the governed, in my area, were preparing this AM to parade in front of the Hospital again today.
Risings against investor owned nation state mandates continue?
Posted by: snake | Aug 7 2021 19:32 utc | 228
Posted by: vk | Aug 7 2021 16:45 utc | 209
Thanks VK I think your cautions are well advised. At first this was a big problem with Ivermectin. There were mixed study results once they started. B posted one of them here.
As a rule of thumb what do you think of relying on meta studies?
India's claims were problematic, but as mentioned above we can approach this similarly to cancer studies and gain valuable evidence regarding actual use.
It all takes time as you say. It's certainly worth doing.
Personally I very much need answers on this given the multiple comorbidities within my family group and extended family.
I am looking for any evidence against it and am open to it.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 19:49 utc | 229
For those looking hard evidence againt big Pharma and US beauracracy I refer you to Patent applications.
As repeatedly said. Covid isn't just not novel, it's all patented well before the outbreak.
That's quite a coincidence.
"A Manufactured illusion: Dr David Martin
with Reiner Fuellmich"
41K views 3 weeks ago
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 19:56 utc | 230
For those looking hard evidence againt big Pharma and US beauracracy I refer you to Patent applications.
As repeatedly said. Covid isn't just not novel, it's all patented well before the outbreak.
That's quite a coincidence.
"A Manufactured illusion: Dr David Martin
with Reiner Fuellmich"
41K views 3 weeks ago
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 7 2021 20:34 utc | 231
BM @ 198, Thanks for this extensional post, which deals with the immune system's ability to encounter the virus - - this is why my double masking with two cloth masks (one I made myself) doesn't phase me if they are not 100 percent perfect. One doctor back in the early stages was in fact saying it might be good to have a few particles enter to give the immune system a chance to analyze and reject. I haven't heard that suggestion definitively proven wrong.
Another supposition more recently was that the body quite naturally creates an inhospitable environment for the virus in a double masked scenario - the temperature goes up and so does humidity in the interior space.
Also very much thanks to David B Horsman for his link @ 168, and to you, BM for flagging it.
Posted by: juliania | Aug 7 2021 20:57 utc | 232
Bruised Northerner @ 221, I have read on various discussions of vitamin C that zinc is also recommended - it's not expensive, and I add it to my own regime from time to time, not wanting to overdo it with anything. I did notice there are compounds available where zinc is included with C, so I take a small tablet now and again with the C. Also I'm a big fan of yogurt, just the plain whole milk version though Greek is nice for the thickness of that. I garden, so I think I'm getting plenty of D that way. Best wishes. As David B has said, I have family who have had the two shots, so along with you, I am concerned about them. Not to mention the enormity of it all; I wish everyone a good outcome.
Posted by: juliania | Aug 7 2021 22:04 utc | 234
Apologies: in previous comments I should have referenced David G, not B.
Posted by: juliania | Aug 7 2021 22:15 utc | 235
Hi juliana @ 234, thank you for the comments! I have been planning an emergency COVID kit that I intend to stock once I can leave my home. (For use in case I have to self-isolate again with symptoms.) I’ve not used zinc before but have received so many recommendations for it, I plan to put it in my kit! (I did have good results previously with iodine.) For now, I’ll rely on the multivitamin. Your suggestions are excellent and I don’t want to whip up hysteria, but I don’t think moderation would have served me in this situation. The combination of getting the second vaccine shot, with my previous exposure to something that may be the Sars-CoV2 virus left me in a predicament, which I’m still in. I’m afraid I had to resort to extreme measures. I can’t believe how hard I’ve been hit, but I’m managing. Those of us who go the natural route generally expect more symptoms, discomfort (since so many drugs deal with symptom-control, don’t they?)
Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Aug 7 2021 22:33 utc | 236
Posted by: juliania | Aug 6 2021 15:48 utc | 107
"But don't despair if you've succumbed to the shot taking, just build up your own better immunity as the shots wear off. You can do it!"
Thanks for that Juliania! appreciate your posts, insight, and in this case, encouraging all of us to step up and do what we can do to build up our own personal life support and defense system. very Zen, IMO.
Posted by: migueljose | Aug 7 2021 23:14 utc | 237
Posted by: David G Horsman | @ 231
who said:
"For those looking hard evidence againt big Pharma and US beauracracy I refer you to Patent applications.
As repeatedly said. Covid isn't just not novel, it's all patented well before the outbreak.
That's quite a coincidence."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsDlHprql-g
Thank you DGH for this informative and fascinating link. I watched all of it.
I hope viewers have an hour to spare - together with the attention span to take it in.
Posted by: Paul | Aug 8 2021 1:03 utc | 238
Covid, Sars 2, Invermectin, Vitamin D, Mrna bad, Zinc and Vitamin C, Spikes, yada, yada, yada, yada.
Aye yeay yay.
Posted by: arby | Aug 8 2021 1:39 utc | 239
Good news for Australia's PM, Pastor Morrison:
"Hillsong Now an Official Religion After PM's Pastor gets Charged with Hiding Child Sex Crimes":
The Betoota Advocate is claimed to be Australia's oldest newspaper.
Posted by: Paul | Aug 8 2021 1:58 utc | 240
Juliania @ 234, Bruised Northerner @ 236:
I have read these and earlier comments from both of you and others on this thread as I have been pressured / threatened / blackmailed by family members to take the dreaded jabs. I will be seeing my GP this week about the choices (AZ, Pfizer) available to me.
I would suggest also to Bruised Northerner to include magnesium (best taken in food, of course: nuts, legumes, leafy vegetables, natural yoghurt) in the COVID kit.
Thanks to you both for the helpful tips and recommendations.
Posted by: Jen | Aug 8 2021 3:02 utc | 242
Thanks for the tips, Jen. I’m thinking powdered greens of some kind and some extra frozen green veggies for emergency use only (up to 3 months I guess)! Appreciate the other suggestions as well.
In my case, I think I may have unintentionally got the second Pfizer vaccine while in the first days of infection with the Delta variant. I can’t prove that, but that’s my best guess as to why I reacted so severely. From what I can tell the vaccines are not supposed to be injected into someone with an active infection (at that time I just had a slight feeling of something... I remember watching a news conference with the Chief Medical Officer of Saskatchewan several months ago. He discussed outbreaks in the workplace and said one cause was that people who felt a bit off would go to work, then a number of days later develop covid symptoms. Maybe this was my experience as well? I’m self-isolating just in case.)
A friend of mine who had fairly severe asthma in childhood swears by the old salt-water gargle as the most reliable way to fend off throat and chest infections. So I’ve added that, too now, intermittently. (Still on 4,000 IUs vitamin D every 4 hrs and now, 500 mg to 2,000 mg vitamin C every 4 hours, depending how I’m feeling.)
Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Aug 8 2021 5:06 utc | 243
Some doctors say that Fluvoxamine is effective for treating long covid which is mostly caused by nervous system/brain inflammation. Not to be combined with Tryptophan or lithium salt of carbonate!
Posted by: GoverntheMente | Aug 8 2021 9:46 utc | 244
Jen #242
Professor Dolores Cahill who I have linked to previously has called for the withdrawal of mRNA vaccines. Do watch the entire 90 minutes of her discussion on Rumble:
Professor Cahill is an eminent and eloquent speaker.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 8 2021 10:25 utc | 245
Posted by: vk | Aug 7 2021 16:45 utc | 209
You write: "If the person is entering with suspicion of COVID-19 or an early case of the disease (i.e. the PCR test came out positive), then the doctors are mainly quarantining the patients and waiting for some two months to see if he/she will develop the graver forms of the disease,"
Nonsense. This would be entirely unethical and irresponsible. In Turkey, this spring, with what I assume was a positive PCR test, a cough and a bit of tiredness for the past six days (hardly a "graver form of the disease", which I continued to work through online), doctors put me on Favipiravir, and an antibiotic for five days, and it was over by the end of the period (while I continued to work online).
They did not wait until I developed "a graver form of the disease".
You also seem to be fixated on ivermectin not being able to be repurposed for COVID because it was designed as a vermifuge. This is illogical and anti-science. Many drugs have been repurposed for very different diseases, so this does not preclude Ivermectiın or any other drug being repuposed for COVID. A sample:
https://blog.ted.com/9-old-drugs-that-learned-new-tricks-the-head-of-the-national-institutes-of-health-shares-medicines-that-turned-out-to-have-multiple-uses/
"According to some estimates, approximately 90% of medicines most used by patients are approved by the US Food & Drug Administration (FDA) for diseases other than their original approval (so-called “secondary indications”)."
https://geneva-network.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Second-medical-use-patentability.pdf
So enough of your Ivermectin can't be repurposed beause it is a vermifuge nonsense. Of course it can, if it works.
Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Aug 8 2021 10:45 utc | 246
migueljose @ 237
...encouraging all of us to step up and do what we can do to build up our own personal life support and defense system
One thing I've learned from this covid phenomenon is that there are A LOT of unhealthy people out there(I mean even more than I thought), most of whom got there by shirking personal responsibility and eating poorly and avoiding exercise.
Oh yeah, the other thing is that there are A LOT of gullible people out there(I mean even more than I thought), most of whom got there by shirking personal responsibility and being generally negligent in applying common sense.
Here's Mr. Escobar.
Posted by: john | Aug 8 2021 11:09 utc | 247
GoverntheMente @ 244
Fluvoxamine is being used with good results. Prescription only as it should be. Never popular as an SSRI because of the very long schedule of drug interactions. All those interactions apply when used for COVID. Still useful, caution advised.
Posted by: Oldhippie | Aug 8 2021 11:19 utc | 248
A friend of mine who had fairly severe asthma in childhood swears by the old salt-water gargle as the most reliable way to fend off throat and chest infections. So I’ve added that, too now, intermittently. (Still on 4,000 IUs vitamin D every 4 hrs and now, 500 mg to 2,000 mg vitamin C every 4 hours, depending how I’m feeling.)
Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Aug 8 2021 5:06 utc | 243
Allow me to second that. Whatever I had a year and a half ago, salt water gargle/snorting several times a day knocked it down 4 times for me. By then, I had it beat. Cheap too. The non-use of topical treatments in the nose and pharnyx is a mystery to me. Got that idea from a Russian pulmonologist (or whatever the correct term is).
Posted by: Bemildred | Aug 8 2021 12:35 utc | 249
John, Jenn, bruised northerner, Juliania and many others who are taking responsibility to get stronger, healthier--- consider mushrooms as well. Wild turkey tail and artist's conk are plentiful and free in North America and Europe. Learn to i.d. them, pick, throw in a pot of water and make tea. Reishi, Shiitake, oyster and others can be purchased. You're all good researchers. The web is loaded with info on mushrooms' impact on our immune systems.
Posted by: migueljose | Aug 8 2021 13:01 utc | 250
US averaging 100,000 new COVID-19 infections a day
By TERRY SPENCER and KELLI KENNEDY
August 7, 2021 GMT
Posted by: Bemildred | Aug 8 2021 13:15 utc | 251
What Bemildred | Aug 8 2021 12:35 utc | 249 said!
I followed the same Russian pulmonologist's advice (maybe I first saw it here?) and had little more than a headache, some postnasal congestion, and loss of smell for about a week. The important thing is to keep as much of the virus as possible from getting into your lungs, where it wreaks real havoc.
And if it does start getting in your lungs, kneel, then lower your arms and torso forward until your head is just about on the ground -- as if some king or emperor were walking past -- and cough your guts out. Repeat frequently. Gravity will help your cough eliminate the crap.
Oh, and I doubled my Vitamin D intake (I'm naturally deficient anyway).
Posted by: corvo | Aug 8 2021 14:52 utc | 252
"FLCCC are saying that ivermectin can be of use to people who are vaccinated also."
Grieved @ 219 I am wondering if it might be effective with vaccine adverse effects as well. Would it mitigate ADE?
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 8 2021 17:27 utc | 253
" IF (very big if) it was intentionally released, the party under whose agency the release is undertaken is not, strictly speaking, the same party upon which it is released.
Misotheist @ 227 you totally got me there. Thanks for the admonition. Lazy unqualified use of they/them/you contributes little to a discussion.
There are so many levels of different players, institutions and factions in the Covid problem. It is societal, but not in any nefarious sense.
I think both the broad middle classes of the G7, specific big Pharma players, US CDC and Fauci (Department of Health?), DOD all shared a disregard for pathogens like the flu and Covid at first.
A deliberate release by operators that knew they had the best health care in the world on tap. It's valid as a military strategy provided "they" have a few screws loose upstairs. It's equally valid in economic warfare and profiteering, if you are a "bold visionary". Eek.
Posted by: David G Hotsman | Aug 8 2021 18:03 utc | 254
Hi juliania @ 232 About the masks, there are long standing concerns about sinous infection (or worse) and high CO2 levels in the brain.
They can also spread viruses. Very few people, including professionals, use masks correctly.
They are not advised for folks with COPD or other lung issues. Your body needs good oxygenation to stay healthy.
Heavy exercise is also not advised.
Our family worked that one out prior to Covid.
For welders and other industrial conditions, if us have $1100 US or so, I am lookng at 3M's powered air packs.
I think I could build a powered respirator for around $300 CDN.
I have yet to see a study showing that masks are effective. As when last checked anyways.
HAND WASHING. Excuse the caps. Cleanliness is the foundation of nursing. The best preventative measures you can take?
Wash your hands frequently.
Never touch your face and eyes.
Clean surfaces regularly. (gloves)
Wearing a mask should help somewhat.
Take vitamin D, C and B too maybe.
Get exercise regularly.
Nice talking to you all. I hope that is helpful juliania.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 8 2021 18:26 utc | 255
Juliania, "Another supposition more recently was that the body quite naturally creates an inhospitable environment for the virus in a double masked scenario - the temperature goes up and so does humidity in the interior space."
No. I repeatedly hear that these conditions are a perfect breeding ground for bacteria and capture and preserve the virus.
There are actual cases of brain infections (yes, quite deadly ones) resulting from mask use.
So that is the rebuttal to mask use.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 8 2021 18:35 utc | 256
Juliania, "Another supposition more recently was that the body quite naturally creates an inhospitable environment for the virus in a double masked scenario - the temperature goes up and so does humidity in the interior space."
No. I repeatedly hear that these conditions are a perfect breeding ground for bacteria and capture and preserve the virus.
There are actual cases of brain infections (yes, quite deadly ones) resulting from mask use.
So that is the rebuttal to mask use.
===========
The web is loaded with info on mushrooms' impact on our immune systems.
Posted by: migueljose @ 250 We old hippies cheeer whenever a new use for mushrooms appears. Awesome.
Posted by: David G Horsman | Aug 8 2021 19:40 utc | 257
corvo @252 wrote:
Oh, and I doubled my Vitamin D intake (I'm naturally deficient anyway).
______________________________________________________
If you're naturally deficient you might examine your intake of High fructose corn syrup...
or too many calories in general...
It surprises me that so many people want to know what to take to combat covid but few care to find out what to avoid doing to increase their chances against covid.
If you want to die of covid then first feed yourself lots of high fructose corn, that will set you your body up for maximum damage.
Posted by: jinn | Aug 8 2021 22:35 utc | 258
I avoid HFCS (both straight and as stealth food additive) like the plague, thank you very much, and have little taste for sweets of any kind. As long as I avoid pasta, I'm fine.
Posted by: corvo | Aug 9 2021 0:04 utc | 259
@255 - David G Horsman
"HAND WASHING. Excuse the caps. Cleanliness is the foundation of nursing. The best preventative measures you can take?
Wash your hands frequently.
Never touch your face and eyes.
Clean surfaces regularly. (gloves)
Wearing a mask should help somewhat.
Take vitamin D, C and B too maybe.
Get exercise regularly."
Research by our local CDC, RIVM , concluded that transmission of these type of viruses like corona and influenza mainly is caused by aerosols. For which 1,5m or masks don't do much.
95% of the infections were caused by aerosols and 5% by droplets. And those droplets almost have to land directly on an other person. The aerosols can linger in the air of not wel ventilated enclosed spaces for hours. The person spreading them can be long gone but still his aerosols can infect people. The main reason the aerosols are so effective at infecting people is because these particles can be breathed in deep into the lungs were they have the best chance of infecting. The 'social' distancing won't help much preventing anything. Also they concluded that surface transmission and outdoors transmission aren't really a thing.
And don't forget to take some zink with the vitamins. 45% of patients in the ICU with covid had vitamine D deficiency and 45% had zink deficiency. So that's 90% of all ICU patients, probably could have beat covid if they didn't have that deficiency.
Posted by: GoverntheMente | Aug 9 2021 2:53 utc | 260
Australian COVID-19 Shitstorm on RT
All explained in John Helmer's 'Hitler didn't die in Berlin: He moved to Melbourne where he runs the State government of Victoria.' A covid-19 thriller.
Posted by: John Gilberts | Aug 9 2021 5:40 utc | 261
So 4 and 1/2 days after that last shot, my tender pink splotch around the prick has turned to normal colour. I still react every 4-5 hours, when my “meds” (4,000 IUs D, 1,000 mgs C) wear off, but it’s a lessened version of the withdrawing-from-addiction-to-heavy-narcotic response from earlier. Sleep is piecemeal. Feeling grumpy and vaguely persecuted, I fantasized about seeking medical assistance just to have someone look me in the eyes (through layers of PPE), while nodding and saying “mmm-hmmm” as I explained what I’m going through. “And see this right here? That’s where the needle went in, it hurts if you touch it. Do you still give out candy?” Probably not the best use of our healthcare system. I suspect I unintentionally booked myself a ticket on the sepsis-heart failure-death train, and if that nodding, mmm-hmmming medical professional had given me a look of alarm, I would have freaked right out. ... Let’s never talk about this again, shall we? Best wishes to the barflies, you all stay safe, thanks for the posts and for being you.
Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Aug 9 2021 8:08 utc | 262
The comments to this entry are closed.
BM @ 193
The point is, if this med is an anti-viral as suspected then it should not be used by rich people as a prophelactive to avoid perceived harms from a vaccine which their compatriots are taking to avoid sickness from the pandemic.
Posted by: suzan | Aug 7 2021 6:07 utc | 186
What is this crap? Woke fakeness? Or just plain trolling?
...
Prophelactive? Pseudo scientist suzan was one of the first out of the gate to get the experimental injection. She's been shilling for big Pharma ever since. Throughout these tedious exchanges she's never expressed concern for the rather alarming number of adverse effects and deaths, she's never expressed concern for the radical implanting of these toxic antigens into children and pregnant women, and she's never expressed concern for the censoring, deplatforming, or delegitimising of qualified ulterior voices trying to raise concern...no, in fact she's only aided and abetted the pogrom. I see she's now even blaming breakout contagion among the vaccinated on the fact that they aren't wearing masks.
What a quack!
Posted by: john | Aug 7 2021 15:38 utc | 201