Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 16, 2021
Afghanistan – Chaos Pictures Increase Fallout From U.S. Defeat

The Wall Street Journal describes the current situation at the Kabul airport as '‘Saigon on Steroids’

It indeed is as satellite pictures and a number of videos posted on Twitter show. Thousands of people rushed towards the airport. There was some panic at one of the entry gates and three persons there seem to have died in a stampede. Hundreds ran onto the runway. Other tried to climb fly bridges to get into planes.

On the military side of the airport the U.S. military fired shots to keep people from storming it. They later set up razor wire.

People ran along a departing C-17, a large military airplane. Some climbed onto the plane's landing gear doors.


bigger

The plane started, the landing gear retracted and the doors closed. At least three people fell to their death. Some others were alledgedly overrun by a plane and died.

Those sad little stories are an aside in the larger picture but it does reflect how little control the U.S. has over the airport. Why was there no planing for this?

These pictures will dominate the news cycle and upset further evacuation plans:

Ruffini @EenaRuffini – 13:30 UTC · Aug 16, 2021

NEW: Situation at the airport is “tenuous” and consideration is being given to pulling all Americans out and leaving the Afghans behind. That decision has not been made but it is on the table and will need to be addressed if Us can’t get control of the airport. (Martin/Ruffini)

That would actually be good as the current chaos is totally unnecessary. There have been very few revenge acts by the Taliban around the country. They have clear orders to not commit any and they behave very disciplined. There is no proof that anyone's security in Kabul, be they diplomats or Afghan civilians of any stripe, is in danger.

The Taliban spokesman confirms this:

Suhail Shaheen. محمد سهیل شاهین @suhailshaheen1 – 15:15 UTC · 16 Aug 2021

We assure all diplomats, embassies, consulates, and charitable workers, whether they are international or national that not only no problem will be created for them on the part of IEA but a secure environment will be provided to them, Inshallah.

Still – the U.S. is sending even more soldiers and soon there will be 7,000 of them. They will hardly fit into the airport.

The city of Kabul was quiet today. Taliban patrol the roads and guard important offices. Men walked or drove around and did their jobs but few women were seen. The Talibs greeted friendly:

Obaidullah Baheer @ObaidullaBaheer – 11:05 UTC · Aug 16, 2021

I went out imagining savagery and anger from them, I imagined seeing #KhaledHosseini's world. Yet, I was pleasantly surprised at their discipline and respectfulness. I hope they are learning to change their image of us too. [4/5]

There was even a Shia procession in Kabul today which caused no incidents.

It seems that Taliban had no plan to be in Kabul yet. But yesterday, after the higher government officials fled with all the money they had stolen, public security broke down and some looting took place. The Taliban had to move in to secure the city.

These are no longer the Taliban of the 1990s.

Afghanistan scholar Antonio Giustozzi sees reasons for hope:

Although the Taliban may well adopt the “emirate” label for Afghanistan again, it seems that their plan is to incorporate new features in their government.

The Taliban have hinted recently that they would like to adopt the 1964 constitution as the basis of a new constitution that will be drafted. This in general has been viewed as a positive signal, given that the 1964 constitution was in the past hailed as the start of Afghanistan’s decade of democracy. However, it does not mention political parties and it is a monarchist constitution. We will also have to see what “updates” the Taliban will want to bring to it.

The Taliban appear bent on incorporating elements of the previous regime, with whom in fact they have already made deals over the past few months. Among the most prominent are former foreign minister Salahuddin Rabbani, former president Hamid Karzai and former deputy president Karim Khalili. Some Islamic parties and groups, such as Hizb-i Islami, led by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, have also made deals with the Taliban and are likely to be represented in the future government.

The Taliban have also been reaching out to mid-level technocrats and bureaucrats, inviting them to stay in the country to serve the next government. They have started absorbing army specialists, in order to operate advanced equipment.

The geopolitical consequences of the U.S. defeat will be felt for a long time. As Andrei Martyanov writes:

The world took notice and the United States handed the victory to Islamic fanatics and thus emboldened them, the same way the United States fanned the flames of Political Islam in 1980s and helped to form the force which is radically anti-civilizational in its essence.

This IS the main failure of the combined West and it will be, yet again, up to someone else to clean this fucking mess after the US, whose political and military "elites" not only did not learn shit from anything but are incapable of learning. In that, when combined with a myriad of other economic, scientific, cultural and moral failures, modern West, headed by the United States, declared itself a failure. Events in Kabul today demonstrate perfectly and are the epitome of the modern West.

I am much less concerned about the Taliban as a winning local resistance in Afghanistan than about the example their victory sets for more radical Islamists in other parts of the world.

Afghanistan's neighbors will see to it that Afghanistan will not again become a black hole or a nest for foreign radicals. As Giustozzi remarks:

Overall, however, the primary concerns of the future Taliban-led government will be pragmatic. It will have to manage relations with neighbouring countries – Pakistan, Iran, Russia, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and China – most of which have existing relations with the Taliban, but do not entirely trust them. All have interests that they want the Taliban to respect. The Taliban-led government will struggle to keep the economy afloat and to maintain the provision of essential services, which have been suspended in much of Afghanistan as they advanced.

Yesterday Iran was informed by Russia that it will now become a full member of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO). So far the SCO included China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, India and Pakistan. Iran will now join and Afghanistan has observer status. This block, which is to a large part about military and policy coordination, will cover for Iran when the U.S. will try to escalate over Iran's nuclear program. Today Pakistan's prime minister Imran Khan was in Iran for further talks. He will then travel to Doha to talk with the Taliban leadership.

The SCO will also take care of Afghanistan. It has enough collective power to help and develop Afghanistan over the next decades.

The U.S. though lost a lot of face. The defeat, and the bad handling of it, have been noticed around the world and especially in Asia. There the U.S. has tried to recruit 'allies' for its self inflicted and totally unnecessary confrontation with China.

But who will want to join such a feeble 'superpower' after watching its recent performance in Afghanistan, elsewhere, or even at home?

Comments

Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Aug 17 2021 10:54 utc | 192
“Why not kill thousands of foreign troops holed up in the one place? Why not shoot German transport aircraft out of the sky? What, I ask, is this apparent let-bygones-be-bygones crap? “
Partly because they are not “Americans”, parttly because they have attained greater strategic understanding since 2001, partly because they have a vision of possible “following courses” rather than following the restricted American diet. There will likely be attempts at convincing them of the “errors of their ways” given the half life of ideologies, and the reflex resort to those vectors by “Americans”.

Posted by: MagdaTam | Aug 17 2021 11:34 utc | 201

Anyone here laugh at their own jokes?
Sure, it happens, especially if you haven’t heard the joke before.
But how many times can you tell the same joke
again and again
and still laugh at it?
There has got to be something broken with someone that does that.
Trolls get a kick out of being trolls,
but how many times can they troll
again and again and again
and still get a kick out of it?
It is the same joke.
Bang your head against the wall, trolls.
Do something. Something to shake loose that stuck gear
you trolls have.

Posted by: librul | Aug 17 2021 11:36 utc | 202

I think Bidens speech was quite remarkable on three points:
1 He openly admitted that the war never was about democracy, thereby undoing 20 years of propaganda. Might work in the US, but it’s a great embarrassment for many politicians in Europe. The Swedish FM Ann Linde has been whaling about democracy and women’s rights for a week now – he effectively told her to stop whining and shut up. Selling the next RTP-war will be very difficult.
2 By saying that the events of the last weeks confirmed that the decision to leave was the right one, and that events unfolded at a much higher pace than expected, he effectively admitted that what we have seen isn’t them leaving, it was them being thrown out.
3 By blaming the fiasco on local vassals he made the US look VERY stupid, and made the chances of the US ever finding ‘allies’ in the country again close to zero.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Aug 17 2021 11:39 utc | 203

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Aug 17 2021 10:01 utc | 185

The Taliban should “weaponize” the collaborators and anyone else who wants to leave and I don’t mean use them as suicide bombers. Keep Kabul airport open and open other airports to allow the evacuation of all

They’re clearly already doing that, keep watching…

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Aug 17 2021 11:40 utc | 204

listening to the americans and their services,in stead of opening their ears to the German ambassador’s warnings.This could play out heavily in the upcoming elections,their Mali program is at risk as wall.
Posted by: willie | Aug 17 2021 11:02 utc | 194

Yes, and now the challenge for CDU/CSU is decoupling from US/Nato.
See above my #197 with Armin Laschet quote.
Greenparty is Nato Partei thanks to Joska Fischer, SPD a joke…
German Industry will drive. As always

Posted by: Rêver | Aug 17 2021 11:43 utc | 205

@Posted by: Et Tu | Aug 17 2021 9:08 utc | 181
The Saker is back up and running.
Their web guy explains that a critical hard drive was logging too many errors
so he asked to have it replaced. The techs that replaced it ran into
(self-inflicted?) problems (those are detailed in a link I didn’t read).
What was expected to take a couple of hours … took a whole bunch more.

Posted by: librul | Aug 17 2021 11:44 utc | 206

Chaos in Kabul.

Posted by: john | Aug 17 2021 11:52 utc | 207

@ David G Horsman | Aug 17 2021 7:48 utc | 174
GREAT! 👍😂

Posted by: Rêver | Aug 17 2021 11:56 utc | 208

Posted by: nudge | Aug 17 2021 0:22 utc |
who commented :
‘Heard told that the German people are considering the option of out-sourcing to the Taliban, the job of getting the US to end the 75-year occupation of their country..’.
You made aa good and valid point, bravo. Let’d hope so.

Posted by: Paul | Aug 17 2021 11:59 utc | 209

Chaos in Kabul.
Posted by: john | Aug 17 2021 11:52 utc | 204

Schock and Awe
A bloodbath
Next, the beheading…
https://vimeo.com/456165777

Posted by: Rêver | Aug 17 2021 12:09 utc | 210

The Taliban are now the only hope for a US military withdrawal.
Flying 6-7000 US military into Kabul airfield was the easy bit. Although they needed a lot of C-17 trips it meant that there were a lot of empty C-17 flying out that could take lots of refugees out on their return trips.
Getting those military out is a different kettle of fish. With a normal capacity of 150 loaded troops and a couple of known flights out with 650 and 800 on board we might assume something like 500 troops a flight. So this is in the order of 15 flights out only carrying said US military.
With a gradually reducing number of personnel left to defend the leaving C-17s and a probably increasing anger from the locals at seeing none of them on any aircraft, the situation is ripe for big problems. Especially as the Apache they have been using to clear the runways etc with its downwash will have had to have been destroyed to prevent prying eyes.
The US will not want to see social media swarming with dead bodies on the runways either shot or run over by exiting C-17s compounding their reputational destruction.
The only solution I can see is for the US to hand over control of the airfield to the Taliban so that the runways can be cleared for the last 2-3 C-17s out.
Oh the ignominy.
In the meantime now are they finding food and water for 7000 men and aviation fuel. Added insult to injury would be videos of Taliban escorting supplies into the airfield for the US.

Posted by: JohninMK | Aug 17 2021 12:28 utc | 211

Referring to #189 here in Italy we still study a lot of Roman history, so I can add a tasty detail about ‘Forche Caudine’.
Romans were indeed allowed to leave, but not before being compelled to pass under a low arch made with spears,
in doing so they were forced to bow to Samnites…
RE: CAUDINES FORKS | 189

Posted by: mauro rossini | Aug 17 2021 12:28 utc | 212

Where’s Hillary?
Behind the scenes Hillary’s minions are lobbying for the 25th amendment.
Don’t you think?
Sleepy Joe is a placeholder prezzz.
Everyone knows that.
That one brain cell left to Joe knows it.
People only disagree about who’s seat he is keeping warm and slimy.
I say, Hillary, of course. Who else would it be?
She is one relentless, crazed entity.
https://imgur.com/LnUChXD
Only question is
after Kamala becomes Preztitute
and Kamala brings in Hillary as Vice,
how does Hillary get rid of Kamala?
That is the $64 question.

Posted by: librul | Aug 17 2021 12:38 utc | 213

The afghan islamic ‘revolution’ by the religious Taliban is very similar to the Iran islamic revolution.
Both humiliated and kicked out the Americans. Both were bloodless and the departure of the shah of Iran is similar to the afghan president rush departure.
Both country will bear the word ‘Islamic’, the leadership will be religious. The laws will follow a light version of the Sharia law.
Both country are covertly sympathetic to the moslem brotherhood ideology and in addition to Iran they have the support of
Turkey, Pakistan , Qatar and Hamas.
It is yet to see how pro usa KSA and the Uae will react and the kind of relation will be established.
The emergence of a state with an open Islamic agenda may force many moderate Islamic country , allergic to the usa, have no choice than to turn to china and Russia…
A big upheaval in the region is in the way

Posted by: Virgile | Aug 17 2021 13:05 utc | 214

With the UK deep in its greatest military disaster since the Israeli/British/French invasion of Egypt in 1956, you’d think it would be all hands on deck literally with HMS Queen Elizabeth sailing full steam ahead to take up station in the Gulf of Oman/Arabian Sea to provide air support to US/UK/NATO forces in Kabul, but no, it and its CSG are skulking off/running away scared to San Diego. Boris Johnson’s stupid attempt to position Great Britain as a World Power on the World Stage dies a rather sad but hopefully permanent death within a couple of weeks and the World knows he’s “all mouth and no trousers”.
>>>>>: librul | Aug 17 2021 12:38 utc | 209

“Where’s Hillary?

I’d forgotten all about that crazed bat but you could be right.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Aug 17 2021 13:18 utc | 215

I suppose you really have something to regret if you have to board a plane through the wheel wells

Posted by: Den lille Abe | Aug 17 2021 13:30 utc | 216

@Jörgen Hassler | Aug 17 2021 11:39 utc | 200
Very good observations!

Posted by: Norwegian | Aug 17 2021 13:35 utc | 217

librul @209:
If that happens (I see the risk but I think it’s small for the time being; she’s power hungry, but she couldn’t do it on her own, and I think she’s regarded as a spent force by DNC) she would probably be happy to keep Kamala on as cover.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Aug 17 2021 13:36 utc | 218

RE: Posted by: librul | Aug 17 2021 11:44 utc | 203
“The Saker is back up and running. “ – with emphasis on running ?
Via Posted by: MagdaTam | Aug 17 2021 8:00 utc | 177
through Posted by: MagdaTam | Aug 17 2021 10:24 utc | 188
and Posted by: MagdaTam | Aug 17 2021 11:19 utc | 196
Illustrating lets wait for those of little patience, lets talk through “encouragement” in emulation of the opponents facilitating “useful foolery”.
The agora is recognised as a potential work in progress – no “censorship” as this suggests a level of naivete best avoided, as tested by way of various “virtual realities”in relation to“The Saker” on various ocassions from January 2014 until June 2018.

Posted by: MagdaTam | Aug 17 2021 13:42 utc | 219

@Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Aug 17 2021 13:36 utc | 214

Hillary for Vice!

It’s a slogan that sings!
Don’t you agree?

Posted by: librul | Aug 17 2021 13:43 utc | 220

1) The writing was on the wall once Trump committed to US/NATO withdrawal from Afghanistan. All the Taliban ever had to do was wait for the occupiers to get bored and go home, same as the Vietnamese 50 years ago. Minority Hazari governments days were numbered in the face of majority Pashtun forces. Why fight to delay the inevitable?
2) US/NATO truly caught on the hop. They have not yet come to terms with the loss of initiative globally. Intelligence services are too busy inventing Russian and Chinese bogeymen to do their actual jobs.
3) US/NATO are truly in an unenviable position. I’m guessing there are personnel and Nationals behind Taliban lines all over Afghanistan and Kabul. Any evacuation is completely dependent on Taliban goodwill. That’s a hell of a lot of hostages penned in to that airport with no other way out. And more being sent? Taliban could repeat First AngloAfghan War if they so wished.

Posted by: Adamskiyarrr | Aug 17 2021 13:49 utc | 221

The Talibans have been “brotherized” while in Qatar!
https://asiaplustj.info/en/news/world/20210817/taliban-declares-general-amnesty-for-afghan-government-officials-urges-women-to-join-government
what about Ghani (it means “rich” btw)… not accountable? he ll split the looted cash?

Posted by: Mina | Aug 17 2021 13:55 utc | 222

@john | Aug 17 2021 11:52 utc | 204
Haha 🙂 Quite funny!

Posted by: Norwegian | Aug 17 2021 14:11 utc | 223

The timing for Iran becoming a member of SCO I doubt is a coincidence and also doubt the full reason to be a security block for Afghanistan’s neighbors.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 16 2021 17:59 utc | 31

Entry into the SCO requires agreement of all members. The reason Iran”s attainment of full membership was delayed all this time was because Tajikistan and Uzbekistan withheld their consent. According to Russia that consent has now been given, therefore there is no longer an impediment.
I suspect Russia exploited the Afghanistan security situation to cajole Tajikistan and Uzbekistan into giving their consent to Iran’s membership. Both Tajikistan and Uzbekistan have vital strategic interests in Afghanistan’s stability and regional security. As a major regional muslim country and neighbour of Afghanistan, Iran will certainly play a vital role in that stability and security, so it is surely very much in the national interests of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan to have Iran on board the SCO as a full member. Furthermore I strongly suspect that Iran, Russia and China were covertly working very closely together with the Taliban to ensure that the US was always kept on the back foot and unable to keeep up with the Taliban’s lightening fast advances; and, complementarily, to to help guide the Taliban leadership towards policies most consistent with peaceful and harmonious developments.
A Shia islamic republic in Iran, and a Sunni islamic republic right next door in Afghanistan … I suspect with these two republics cooperating in friendship we might see a most interesting and positive revival of the most positive aspects of Islam. A true Renaissance. A flowering of Islam to contrast with the corrosive qualities of Al Qaida, Saudi Arabia, and UAE and the poisen that those countries and groups and their ilk have kept Islam bathed in these last so many decades. Just a feeling of mine, and a hope. Certainly Iran has the potential for such a development … the Taliban?

Posted by: BM | Aug 17 2021 14:13 utc | 224

“There have been very few revenge acts by the Taliban around the country. They have clear orders to not commit any and they behave very disciplined.”

The Taliban had a very bad record when they were in power 20 years ago. Except for Pakistan, the entire world despised them. They replaced the Soviet government’s puppet so Russia opposed them. And many of the mujahedeen, whom the US supported, also opposed them.
Things are likely to be different now, however. The Russians are over the ’80s and are going to deal with the Taliban for Russia’s own security. Russia is dealing with both Pakistan and India now. China is working with Russia so they, too, will work with the Taliban.
The Taliban, itself, will also act within its own interests. Their leaders won’t want a repeat of the last 20 years either. They will work now with the international community for respect and for trade. Rather than kill off those who cast their lot with US, the Taliban is more likely to work out a deal to let them leave – if the US will let them come here.
Even some elements of the US will work with them once they get over the humiliation. Trump negotiated with them. Furthermore, if the US doesn’t improve upon this, the world will hate US all the more and ‘our’ empire, though dead already, will still have supporters in the military-foreign policy bureaucracy who know it will fall faster if they don’t improve. Imagine what the Syrian Kurds must be thinking.
Expect to receive 10s of thousands of Afghans in the US during the next few years. It is going to happen. Such is the price of empire. Anyone who doubts this should take a trip to London.

Posted by: David Wooten | Aug 17 2021 14:34 utc | 225

@220 BM
Good points.
Let’s remember that the Taliban have a spiritual leader also, just as Iran does. And personally, I see this form of policy guidance as having worked well in Iran. The first directives from the Taliban’s leader that I knew about were along the lines of acting peacefully and not vengefully, and without overstepping their role among the people as they took control.
My point is that while it is hard for individuals to progress continually upwardly without times of reversion, this is also why we have spiritual leaders, who hopefully can maintain that path of virtue, and remind us of it.
All of which is a long-winded way of saying that we have not yet seen the Taliban hit a wall and stop their current “flowering”, and we can hope. They are surrounded by eminence in their neighbors, and the desire to equal that eminence has to be compelling.
Your picture of a potential Renaissance of the true decency and glory of Islam in the region is exciting.

Posted by: Grieved | Aug 17 2021 14:42 utc | 226

JohninMK @ 207
Getting those military out is a different kettle of fish. With a normal capacity of 150 loaded troops and a couple of known flights out with 650 and 800 on board we might assume something like 500 troops a flight. So this is in the order of 15 flights out only carrying said US military.
No artillery support, very little air support, small patch of ground to stand on, ammmunition resupply, food resupply support, everythng airlifted in, and surrounded by 50,000 Taliban. Things could get ugly quickly.
They would have to call in the B-52’s and flatten everything on rotation.

Posted by: circumspect | Aug 17 2021 14:48 utc | 227

People here have been wasting too much time mixing two completely different subjects: the American military defeat in Afghanistan and nation-building in Afghanistan by the Taliban.
The USA lost in a humiliating and devastating fashion in Afghanistan. That’s already settled in History, and no amount of denial will change that.
Another, completely different subject is how the Taliban will nation-build Afghanistan, and if they will be successful (i.e. survive for a respectable amount of time).
My take on the second is this: we should not analyze the situation with First Cold War lens. The Taliban don’t have the pressure of communist parties to not only win military victory, but build something better in its place. They’re religious fanatics. As long as they stabilize the whole nation and don’t piss off Russia, China and Iran, they will be able to survive for a long time (the fact they’re landlocked also protects them from the USA, whose power is in the sea; Bush was only able to fly to Afghanistan with efficiency because Russia allowed the USA to use it air space for that purpose).
So, yes, Afghanistan will continue to be an extremely poor and primitive country for the foreseeable future. But that doesn’t matter, because the Taliban are not a communist party, they can live and even thrive with centuries and millennia of poverty.

Posted by: vk | Aug 17 2021 14:51 utc | 228

@circumspect | Aug 17 2021 14:48 utc | 223

They would have to call in the B-52’s and flatten everything on rotation.

This is what Hollywood has done to people.

Posted by: Norwegian | Aug 17 2021 14:51 utc | 229

Posted by: librul | Aug 17 2021 13:43 utc | 216
Well… It’s hard sound really enthusiastic about making anyone vice anything. But if they are planning marches I’ve got a chant for them:

Put Biden!
On ice!
Hillary for vice!

The syllable format 3-2-5 often work well in demonstrations.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Aug 17 2021 14:57 utc | 230

@ mauro rossini | Aug 17 2021 12:28 utc | 208
Thanks for the addendum, Moro.
Bowing is why the French quote is “passer sous les fourches “.
Perhaps you know better why “Forks”?

Posted by: Rêver | Aug 17 2021 14:59 utc | 231

Now the Taliban is demanding that the US must be out by September 11.
I guess they have a sense of humour.

Posted by: Norwegian | Aug 17 2021 15:06 utc | 232

Caudine Forks were a pass / defile in Southern Italy. I guess the mountainous shape there was kind of like a fork with 2 sizable peaks on each side of the pass, hence the name. Like the Horns of Hattin’s name (to borrow from another famous battle) came from the shape of nearby hills.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Aug 17 2021 15:11 utc | 233

The Soviets’ Afghan ‘puppet’ was much different from the American puppet.
They were for modernity and progress. The Afghan cities, especially Kabul, flowered during this time, with full participation and equality of women.
But there is a fundamental cultural divide in the country. The urban folks want modernity, but most of the population is rural. They do not want modernity, and want their traditions, which have worked well for them for centuries.
Both are entitled to their culture. These cultural rights are enshrined in the UN.
The mistake of the Soviet-backed government was that they wanted to change the rural folks too quickly. This caused a backlash.
The US was quick to jump on that, and gave unlimited support to the most EXTREME Islamist elements, including the likes of OBL.
They destroyed Afghanistan’s path to progress. We can’t undo that now. Afghanistan has to find its own way forward, that works for all its people.
The matured Taliban we see now appear to recognize this.
There are also ethnic fault lines. Pashtuns are the Taliban traditional base, but they are only 40 percent. Tajiks about 25, and Uzbeks and the Shia Hazara about 10 each.
Hazara were the dominant urban folks at one time, and probably still significant. The Uzbeks and Tajiks were often under the sway of warlords that often fought the Talib.
Today, the Talib have somehow brought everyone together under a Big Tent. That in itself is remarkable.
Let’s hope they can keep it together. With the US gone, at least the possibility of divide and conquer is much less.
Others have pointed out that Iran is also an Islamic republic, but also a modern society that works well. It too has ethnic and religious minorities.
At least now Afghanistan has a chance. For the last 40 years it was strictly US interference that caused all the problems. Hopefully, that thorn has been removed for good.

Posted by: Gordog | Aug 17 2021 15:40 utc | 234

For 20 years the DS cultivated Afghan poppy fields,trafficked the opium, built labs in that country to refine the raw opium to heroin, and banked huge profits. Well, all good things come to an end. I guess the narco pirates will turn their attention, once again, to the East and deal with the drug lords in the Golden Triangle. Business as usual. It’llbe interesting to see if the Taliban burns the poppy fields, or if they have been corrupted too.

Posted by: the grand wazoo | Aug 17 2021 15:43 utc | 235

Islamic communism.
It’s like coffee mixed with milk, a good blend.

Posted by: Smith | Aug 17 2021 15:44 utc | 236

When did our politicians begin calling Afghanistan a “civil war”?
They didn’t.
Remember Matthew Hoh?
In 2009 he very publically resigned and issued a memo calling Afghanistan a
“35-year-old civil war” .
Matthew Hoh is a former Marine officer who resigned from his State Department post in Afghanistan,
saying he no longer believes the war is worth American lives.
It was a “35-year-old civil war”.
This is McNamara speaking in 1995, twenty years after the Vietnam War ended.
ROBERT MCNAMARA: We were fighting, and we didn’t realize it, a civil war. Now, true, there were some — obviously there was Soviet and Chinese influence and support,
and no question the communists were trying to control South Vietnam, but it was basically a civil war. And one of the things we should learn is,
you can’t fight and win a civil war without side troops, and particularly not when the political structure in a country is dissolved.
So it wasn’t the press that was the problem. It was — the problem was that we were in the wrong place with the wrong tactics.
When did our politicians begin calling Afghanistan a “civil war”?
They didn’t.
When addressing the resignation of Matthew Hoh the pols and pundits
talked around Matthew Hoh’s resignation, never addressing the issue he raised of
whether we were picking sides in a civil war.
But **Now** (8/14/2021) faux-Prezzz Biden has come around and recognized it as a civil war:
“I’m left again to ask of those who argue that we should stay: How many more generations of America’s daughters
and sons would you have me send to fight Afghanistan’s civil war when Afghan troops will not?” Biden said.
“How many more American lives is it worth? How many endless rows of headstones at Arlington National Cemetery?”
How long did it take Robert MCNamara to recognize Vietnam as a civil war?
No use in continuing to shovel the bs to sell the war
after the war in Vietnam was lost.
Guess it was time for Biden to sell the exit
and protect his own butt.

Posted by: librul | Aug 17 2021 15:58 utc | 237

@Posted by: librul | Aug 17 2021 15:58 utc | 238
Heck!
Bad line break in my McNamara quote:
you can’t fight and win a civil war without side troops
you can’t fight and win a civil war with outside troops

Posted by: librul | Aug 17 2021 16:03 utc | 238

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Aug 17 2021 15:11 utc | 229
Yes, this is supported by Livy’s description of the place. The arch made of three lances under which the disarmed Romans had to bow to the Samnites was indeed called “yoke”:
“Pontius [the Samnites’ captain general] replied that all war was at an end, and since even now that they were vanquished and captured they were incapable of acknowledging their true position, he should deprive them of their arms and send them under the yoke, allowing them to retain one garment each.”
After some protesta, the Romans accepted the terms of their surrender and
“Then a definite time was fixed for surrendering the hostages and sending the army, deprived of its arms, under the yoke.” […]
[9.6]The consuls were the first to be sent, little more than half-clothed, under the yoke, then each in the order of his rank was exposed to the same disgrace, and finally, the legionaries one after another. Around them stood the enemy fully armed, reviling and jeering at them; swords were pointed at most of them, and when they offended their victors by showing their indignation and resentment too plainly some were wounded and even killed.
From Livy’s History of Rome: Book 9

Posted by: Alberto | Aug 17 2021 16:05 utc | 239

For those concerned that the Taliban have been labelled “terrorist” by a number of countries, the meaning of that word has changed for many Americans since January 6. It used to mean “boogeyman” for them, but now means “patriot”.
The mass media narrative spinners need to understand a basic linguistic truth which is that they cannot abuse the language as a weapon to demonize people without dulling or damaging that weapon. When they call obviously peaceful protesters “terrorists”, and repeat it ad nauseam, then the word loses its old meaning and comes to mean “peaceful protesters”.
The is one of the problems with the idiot “woke”. They think sequences of vocalized sounds have eternal mystic power like magical incantations, but that is not how language works. Thank you idiot woke fools in the mass media for taking the magic power to frighten out of the word “terrorist”.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 17 2021 16:06 utc | 240

Typo for “protests”

Posted by: Alberto | Aug 17 2021 16:07 utc | 241

Grieved, BM, Peter AU1, et al–
If you’ve kept up with my numerous comments on this evolving situation, you’ll see that I’m optimistic about the possibilities and potential for Afghanistan’s future. Very ironically, Reagan was correct to call them “Freedom Fighters,” for that’s what the Taliban have won by throwing off the Outlaw US Empire/NATO Colonial Yoke. Yes, there are still many unanswered questions that will get answered in due time; but IMO, the most important issue for the Taliban is to continue their destruction of the Establishment Narrative about them and Afghans which can easily be done by practicing/implementing the fundamentally collectivist aspects of genuine Islam. Reports like the following Pepe posted at VK earlier this morning buoy my optimism:
“VERY IMPORTANT: THE NEW RUSSIA, AFGHANISTAN, CENTRAL ASIA EQUATION
“Zamir Kabulov, Russia’s special presidential envoy for Afghanistan, is THE man the Taliban are talking to.
“He confirms ‘we see no direct threat to our allies in Central Asia. There are no facts proving otherwise.’
“Russia – and China – are carefully stage-managing the Taliban reinsertion in regional, and global geopolitics. This means THE SCO is stage-managing the whole process.
“Zabulov:
“‘We have long been in talks with the Taliban on the prospects for development after their capture of power and they have repeatedly confirmed that they have no extraterritorial ambition, they learned the lessons of 2000.’
“These are the facts. The rest is woke hysterics.” [My Emphasis]
Earlier in this thread, I provided a list of all SCO members and its website for those unfamiliar and noted how its linked to the ASEAN, which is to say that the vast majority of Asia wants to see Afghanistan become a success story after its enduring 40+ years of illegal Western intervention.
Genuine Islam has always been a threat to the West because it demands an equitable collectivism that uplifts the entire Umma, not just one Class as with the West. That’s why the British formed what I term an Anti-Islamic organization and promoted Saudi Zealotry, which was then backed by the Outlaw US Empire. The development of Islamic Nationalism along collectivist lines that began with decolonialization and was preempted by the Empire’s actions during the Cold War is again emerging and beginning to blossom again throughout the Islamic World. That world’s rejection of the Empire’s Xinjiang Narrative is a little noticed but very important development and component of the Multi-Polar World.
And so begins Day Two!

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 17 2021 16:13 utc | 242

@Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 17 2021 16:06 utc | 241
I was thinking about this topic just the other day.
Terrorism is using fear to affect political change.
The news media and politicians have been putting the fear of God
into Americans of Korean origin. All this buzz about violence
against Asians is meant to make them feel threatened and unsafe.
The elites and powerful own the pols and the media.
The next step for the pols and MSM is to tell the Asians that
they will be safe if they vote for the politicians that are controlled by the elite.

Posted by: librul | Aug 17 2021 16:14 utc | 243

Posted by: Grieved | Aug 17 2021 14:42 utc | 227
Thanks for your reply. Few people are aware that Iran actually have a huge interreligious university that studies all religions.

Posted by: BM | Aug 17 2021 16:19 utc | 244

Excellent update, Karlof. Thanks! 👍

Posted by: Gordog | Aug 17 2021 16:20 utc | 245

William Gruff @241–
Another notable problem is the continual voicing of the bullshit that 911 was spawned from Afghanistan implicitly by the Taliban particularly by Chinese media as that’s the assumed reason for their being labeled terrorists. If Woke was genuine, it would take on the 911 Big Lie; but it doesn’t, so we know its 100% contrived.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 17 2021 16:22 utc | 246

For Afghanistan updates, I’ve been following the Twitter account of Naseeb Zadran (@NaseebKhanZ). Was linked to by a Canadian reporter – thx!
For Haiti, I followed a link from a Telesur article to the Food For The Poor Twitter account. Notable Tweet from Aug. 14 – “FFTP is responding immediately following a 7.2-magnitude earthquake that struck Haiti’s southern peninsula early Saturday. Miraculously, the charity had just delivered goods Friday to three distribution centers in the region.” The former mayor of Les Cayes, Gabriel Fortuné, died when the hotel he owned collapsed on him. (Found that in Canadian news and the NYT.)

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Aug 17 2021 16:36 utc | 247

Interesting coverage of the death of Gabriel Fortuné in the news from Nigeria of all places!
https://pmnewsnigeria.com/2021/08/14/mayor-fortune-among-dozens-killed-by-haiti-earthquake/
Nigeria – who proposed a single currency for western Africa?

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Aug 17 2021 17:02 utc | 248

Fall of Kabul=Fall of Berlin Wall.

Posted by: casey | Aug 17 2021 17:07 utc | 249

@karlof1 | Aug 17 2021 16:22 utc | 247

Another notable problem is the continual voicing of the bullshit that 911 was spawned from Afghanistan implicitly by the Taliban particularly by Chinese media as that’s the assumed reason for their being labeled terrorists.

I noticed precisely that when reading Global Times and could not believe my own eyes (my emphasis):

China, US, Russia share consensus in Afghanistan, but Washington ‘should correct its mistake to exchange cooperation’
If the US wants to get China’s cooperation, it needs to show enough sincerity by taking actions to correct its mistakes, such as double standards on counter-terrorism and confrontation against China in other fields, Chinese experts warned. They stressed that if Afghanistan fails to achieve sustainable peace and becomes a breeding ground for terrorism again, those terrorist groups worldwide, who target the US as their prime enemy, would have a chance to plan another 9/11 attack.

Why on earth is China pushing the false narrative of 9/11? For sure they know it is BS, and if so they need to show some sincerity themselves. Can they really be this naive?

Posted by: Norwegian | Aug 17 2021 17:49 utc | 250

to vk …
and tom @138
H0les in your argument:
1) “If every country followed science (lockdown + a worldwide vaccination program), there would be no variant Delta.”
No. thats not how it works. thats how the media wants you to believe it works. but as a physician, i can assure you, thats not how it works. especially since the vaccines are imperfect or “leaky” here’s some basic science from a cardio-pulmonoligist with a PhD to help you better understand why. https://www.flemingmethod.com/the-delta-variant
2)”Vaccinated individuals are much less likely to require hospitalization” yea so are people who took ivermectin. take your pick of studies https://c19ivermectin.com/ and so are people who AVOIDED being put on a ventilator. hospital protocol is to follow CDC guidelines which do not include many effective treatments for covid-19. listen to her story https://rumble.com/vktdpt-our-first-hand-icu-story-what-is-actually-killing-people-in-the-hospital.html
3)finally … i just wanted to add this https://www.timesofisrael.com/hmo-those-who-inoculated-early-twice-as-likely-to-catch-covid-as-later-adopters/ In his study, the apparent waning effect in immunity was felt across all ages. For all age groups, early vaccinators were 1.95 times more likely to be confirmed coronavirus positive. Among those aged 60-plus, early vaccinators are twice as likely to get infected. For those aged 40-59 early vaccinators are 2.1 times more vulnerable, and among under 39s they are 1.6 more likely to catch the coronavirus. that means that 2 doses arent enough.. we need 4.. 0r 7 … or just keep em coming. i’m sorry is that how vaccines work?
Fuck this ineffective big-pharma-cash-cow therapy, not even working as a vaccine.

Posted by: fbomb | Aug 17 2021 18:34 utc | 251

@ librul
or waiwaiwait!
maybe she does go your way, maybe she doesn’t just wanna be vice prez, she wannit all
and by then she be all that, she be numero uno, she be prez just that Kamala girl be dead prez
so she won’t ask me for no chant
she go with a classic
say hey!
say ho!
Kamala Harris got to go!

and Kamala be like ‘Whoo! We the people want me to go. Plus, they calling me a hoe! I’m uttah here!’
so she be filling a helicopter whit the cold reserve and flying of to the Bahamas to organize da resistance
and ms Clinton be all serios and rising to the occasion and shit
and reluctantly assuming the powers of the presidency since Kamala be gone and all that
so she be all serious and responsible and as the president of the united states she be addressin the nation, and the world, making it very clear that the president of the united states need to avoid conflict and listen to the people and be nice to dogs and shit or nato will have to respond
and there be marching and heying and hoing and teargas and antifa running around aimlessly and that strange guy from january 6 whit the fake viking helmet will be there and wapo will claim trump novicocked michael jackson on putins orders
and in a week or two there be total color reaction, full blown fokkin color thermidor, man
and notthin fokkin working that wasn’t working before
and everybody be confused
and then the taliban sees that gizmo she thinks is her car keys
really is the key to da bomb
not ‘a bomb’, ‘da bomb’, or, well… ‘da a bomb’
and they be realizing that atomic war might severely hurt the harvest in northern Sar-e Pol
so they be sendin two guys over
armed with a cork gun and a very real looking plastic saber [made in china]
and they be conquering 52 states in 9 days
and then tellin everyone to CALM THE FOKK DOWN!
and we be all hanging on MoA
analyzing every last detail to shreds
and watching the juicy bits on utube!
man, am i looking forward to the next 6 months!!
[Microsoft points out that me using the word ‘shit’ may be offensive to my reader. If you are unfortunate enough to be a reader, I sincerely apologize. For everything.]

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Aug 17 2021 19:40 utc | 252

Norwegian @251–
The Russian’s do the same, so I’ve concluded they do so for “reasons of state” as Chomsky intoned several decades ago in a book with the same title. At least Hudson in his essay said it was the Saudis who did the deed, and he’s likely somewhat correct but in a manner in which he’s unaware.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 17 2021 21:27 utc | 253

Caudines forks, an humiliating defeat but…
Thank you to
Alberto | Aug 17 2021 16:05 utc | 240
Clueless Joe | Aug 17 2021 15:11 utc | 234
@ mauro rossini | Aug 17 2021 12:28 utc | 208
for your help! For 60 years, I thought that pitchforks had been used to bend the Romans and was simply the name of the place. North of Pompeii, Benevento
The French expression is a bit distorted, we should say “passer par les fourches” and not “sous les fourches” .
But looking a little more, I realize that the story didn’t stop there and finally the auspice is not so good:

The Senate of Rome refused to acknowledge this surrender, which, according to it, was the personal responsibility of the two patricians at the time consuls. And it decided to rearm the legions that had returned to Rome in order to avenge this humiliation. As for the two defeated consuls, they were sent back to the Samnites to be executed, but Pontius, disgusted with the bad faith of the Roman Senate, released the two scapegoats. And the war went on.

US Senate overheaded by warmongers and what could happen 2022?
For now, enjoy the Caudines Forks moment! A lot of truth and asches is coming out of this Vesuve, could be devastating.

Here is a must-read Op-ed
The only truth about US disastrous Afghanistan war is that it was all based on lies
By Scott Ritter, former US Marine Corps intelligence officer
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/532305-taliban-victory-us-lie/

Posted by: Rêver | Aug 17 2021 21:32 utc | 254

Blue Dotterel 183
Gen Butler warned the nation war is a racket.
Eisenhower was the last man who highlighted the danger of MIC.
Since WW2,
Every US regime is packed with ex MIC CEO, retired Sec of offence joined the MIC director board.
A very well oiled revolving door system.
tHE USA today is a death merchant masquerading as a nation.

A sophisticated examination of US defense-spending statistics since the end of the Korean War by former Pentagon analyst Franklin Spinney has revealed an intriguing pattern: overall, the budget has grown at a steady rate overall of 5 percent a year. Every time the number has sunk below that trend, a fearsome ‘threat’ has appeared right on cue to justify remedial action.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/56727.htm

Posted by: denk | Aug 18 2021 3:02 utc | 255

Posted by: fbomb | Aug 17 2021 18:34 utc | 252
Good stuff! Thanks

Posted by: pogohere | Aug 18 2021 7:11 utc | 256

@karlof1 | Aug 17 2021 21:27 utc | 254
Thanks for the reply. I still find “reasons of state” to be more than a little obscure and not a satisfying explanation.
I read the Hudson piece on the Biden speech

His first pretense was that we invaded Afghanistan to retaliate against “its” attack on America on 9/11. This is the founding lie of U.S. presence in the Near East. Afghanistan did not attack us. Saudi Arabia did.

The BS around what happened on 9/11 is an onion of lies, where the inner layers merely declare the outer layers to be lies as they introduce another lie. It wasn’t anyone from Afghanistan that did 9/11, it was physically impossible to do what they said. To replace the perpetrators with Saudi nationals makes no difference, the narrative is still physically impossible and essentially the same lie. But you know that. Closer to the real truth is that the whole narrative is a lie, it was home grown in the US and the weapons used were entirely different from airplanes (not denying that there were airplanes there, but they served as distractions).

Posted by: Norwegian | Aug 18 2021 8:30 utc | 257

The situation in Afghanistan was the same as in Vietnam. It’s threrefore appropriate to compare the current disaster in Afghanistan with the lost Vietnam war.
Military strategist John Boyd (1927 – 1997) pointed out that war is fought on 3 levels: 1) the physical 2) the mental 3) the moral. Of those 3 levels the physical is the least powerful and the moral level the most powerful level. Applying that knowledge to Vietnam & Afghanistan the US won in both countries the physical war but lost the moral war.
In both Vietnam & Afghanistan the US made 2 strategic mistakes. The US 1) supported a (very) corrupt regime/government who had very little support in the vietnames & afghan population. The former president of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, was called “the mayor of Kabul”. 2) The US also used violence against the vietnames/afghan population. That is NOT the way to become popular with the population.
John Boyd:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategist)

Posted by: Willy2 | Aug 18 2021 12:11 utc | 258

There were a number of suggestions to the
effect that US deliberately left arms, airfields, etc.
to Taliban. Presumably, to elicit their fanatical
ideology craft in the service of American
penetration of Central Asia and beyond.
Very wrong estimate in my view, US had to
withdraw as it was throwing good money after
bad.
Eurasian SCO has grown and strengthened,
eliminating any realistic chance for US
penetration of Central Asian states and exploiting
their weaknesses, Just try inserting. militant
preachers today into anyone of them. A waste
of time and money.
SCO today consists of a large number of
countries, even though only permanent members
have full voting rights (Russia, China, India, Pakistan,
Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Iran, Kyrgizstan and Tajikistan. Observers include, bedsides Afghanistan —
Belarus and Mongolia, In the wings are candidates on partner level (voting in issues from their
signed SCO chapters). Turkey is partner since 2013.
The latest partners are Saudi Arabia and Egypt (2021). Other partners include Azerbaijan, Nepal, Sri Lanka and Cambodia.
US and its Western partners cannot bring economic development. But they did not burn bridges by
not destroying what they left behind. Tomorrow is always
another day,

Posted by: Bianca | Aug 22 2021 22:12 utc | 259