Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 26, 2021

U.S. - China Talks Point To A Longer Conflict

The U.S. wants to slice and dice its approach to China. It will use all means to take advantage of China where it can, while restricting China in those fields were it can no longer compete with it. The Chinese reject that approach. The U.S., they say, should not see China as an enemy. It should stop lecturing China, accept it as an equal and cooperate with it in all fields.

The U.S. is unwilling to do that. Its media-military-industrial complex is already primed for a cold war with China. Trillions of dollars are to be made from it. China on the other side is ready to play hardball if it must.

Today U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman held talks with the Chinese Deputy Foreign Minister Xie Feng, She also meet with Foreign Minister Wang Yi. The later meeting, demanded to be the main event by the U.S., had already led to some squabble. Wang Yi is beyond Sherman's rank and her main discussion, the Chinese insisted, should be with a person on her own level:

The State Department emphasized Sherman will have “senior-level” communications but a statement from China’s Foreign Affairs Ministry emphasized that Sherman “will hold talks” with Xie and after that Foreign Minister Wang will “meet her.”

On Saturday two 'senior U.S. administration officials' gave a preview of the talks:

As Secretary Blinken has said, the U.S. relationship with China will be collaborative where it can be, competitive where it should be, and adversarial where it must be. And we expect all dimensions of the relationship will be on the table for discussion during Wendy’s meetings.
In Tianjin, [Sherman is] going to make clear while we welcome stiff and sustained competition with the PRC, everyone needs to play by the same rules and on the level – on a level playing field.

She’s going to underscore that we do not want that stiff and sustained competition to veer into conflict. This is why the U.S. wants to ensure that there are guard rails and parameters in place to responsibly manage the relationship.

The second official added:

So let me also put this meeting into the context of the administration’s broader China policy effort. Since President Biden took office, we’ve put a lot of focus on strengthening our own competitive hand vis-a-vis China through many actions that we’ve taken domestically, investing in ourselves at home. We’ve also rallied our allies and partners, including to advance an affirmative vision of the rules-based international order. And we’ve confronted China when they’ve acted against our interests and values while working to cooperate with China on areas like climate change and nonproliferation.

We know we’re stronger when we work with our allies. We know this makes us more effective when dealing with Beijing. We aren’t seeking an anti-China coalition in our work with allies and partners, but rather trying to work together in a multilateral fashion to uphold the international rules-based order.
With all of those actions underway, we’re entering this engagement from a position of strength and of solidarity.
Even as we meet with our Chinese counterparts, we will also continue to hold China accountable. These things are not mutually exclusive, and it should be clear that we are not afraid to impose costs for China’s behavior that undermines international norms.

As Peter Lee commented with his usual snark:

chinahand @chinahand - 16:43 UTC · Jul 24, 2021
"We're going to keep kicking your ass. Don't kick back, 'kay?" Our fate now that dime store Machiavellis, excuse me, generational talents, run the FP show.

The emphasized words were not welcome in China. On Sunday Foreign Minister Wang Yi responded in an interview with an attack on U.S. exceptionalism:

“The United States always wants to exert pressure on other countries by virtue of its own strength, thinking that it is superior to others,” Foreign Minister Wang Yi said on Saturday.

“However, I would like to tell the US side clearly that there has never been a country in this world that is superior to others, nor should there be, and China will not accept any country claiming to be superior to others.

“If the United States has not learned how to get along with other countries on an equal footing by now, then it is our responsibility, together with the international community, to give the US a good tutorial in this regard.

Today, after the talk between Sherman and Xie, the Foreign Ministry published a series of strong response snippets by Deputy Foreign Minister Xie Feng:

I especially like the one about the 'rules based international order':

On 26 July, during his talks with U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman, Vice Foreign Minister Xie Feng made the comment that the U.S. side's so-called “rules-based international order” is an effort by the United States and a few other Western countries to frame their own rules as international rules and impose them on other countries. The United States has abandoned the universally-recognized international law and order and damaged the international system it has helped to build. And it is trying to replace it with a so-called “rules-based international order”. The purpose is to resort to the tactic of changing the rules to make life easy for itself and hard for others, and to introduce “the law of the jungle" where might is right and the big bully the small.

The SCMP summerizes:

China has for the first time given the US a list of red lines and remedial action it must take to repair relations, including lifting sanctions and dropping its extradition request for Huawei financial chief Meng Wanzhou.

Chinese foreign vice-minister Xie Feng told US deputy secretary of state Wendy Sherman on Monday morning that US-China relations had reached a “stalemate” and faced “serious consequences”, according to a Chinese foreign ministry statement.

“The foundational reason is that some people in the US are treating China as an ‘imagined enemy’,” it quoted Xie as saying.

After the meeting, Xie said China gave two lists to the US – one with one remedial action for Washington to take towards China, and the other a series of Beijing’s key concerns.
Xie said the Chinese side also “expressed its strong dissatisfaction towards the wrong remarks and actions of the US” in relation to investigations into the origins of Covid-19, Taiwan, Xinjiang, Hong Kong and the South China Sea.

“We urge the United States not to underestimate the strong determination, firm will and strong ability of the 1.4 billion Chinese people to safeguard national sovereignty, security and development interests,” state news agency Xinhua quoted him as saying.

In its summary of the talks the Associated Press points to the basic difference in the approaches:

High-level face-to-face talks between U.S. and Chinese diplomats on Monday highlighted sharp differences between the sides, although the tone appeared somewhat less contentious than at their last meeting.
Xie said China wants to seek common ground while shelving differences, highlighting a divide in the basic approach to their relationship. The Biden administration has said it will cooperate in areas such as climate but confront China in others such as human rights, describing the relationship as collaborative, competitive and adversarial.

As the U.S. is for now rejecting the Chinese offer for burying the hatchet China will have to play hardball. It will not be cooperative in the fields where the U.S. wants it to be cooperative (Iran, North Korea, etc.). It will also be adversarial in fields where the U.S. has little ability to push back (rare earth exports, Boeing 737MAX re-certification).

The U.S. hopes that it can find and press 'allies' into confronting China. But Europe already rejected that. To others, especially in Asia, the U.S. looks like a declining power because it is a declining power and the economic interests of most nations now favor China. Under these circumstances I for one fail to see how the U.S. could win in a longer cold conflict.

How long then will it take until the U.S. recognizes that and steps down from its illusion of supremacy?

Posted by b on July 26, 2021 at 16:20 UTC | Permalink

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thanks b... i don't have a lot of faith in the west under this so called usa leadership, to change its ways... how exactly can it claim to be collaborative, competitive and adversarial? the emphasis seems much more on competitive and adversarial and much less on collaborative... i really don't think they are fooling anyone and - i am not that bright!! so, good luck trying to fool a group of very intelligent people! and of course the @international rules-based order@ logo needs to be used at every turn... it reminds of of the @ maga@ logo trump was fond of using.... good luck trying to push that brand...

Posted by: james | Jul 26 2021 16:32 utc | 1

Outstanding posting b of the seminal subject of our day, the civilization war between public and private finance......oh, excuse me, "...where might is right and the big bully the small."

It is not just the US that needs to step back from its illusion of supremacy but the God of Mammon centered form of social organization which has its tentacles in most of the Western nations, not just the US.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 26 2021 16:34 utc | 2

One point heretofore ignored is the self-sabotaging of the US' liberal ideology of free trade, the idea that mutual gains are derived from trade based on specialization.

The US technology war on China is a de facto admission that the real world of capitalist trade is based not on the fictions of comparative advantage theory but on competitive ownership and control of technologies and on geopolitical means of maintaining those advantages. This is the institutionalist theory of political economy.

The US is unaware that it is committing ideological suicide by exposing the farce of liberal trade theory and its own imperial ideology.

This ideological dimension is another vector of US imperial decline.

The US can't pretend to be the guarantor of world capitalism, of capitalist classes everywhere, and of a "rules based order," and then turn around and declare itself exceptional in terms of building national competitive capacities to outcompete others.

At the end of the day, other states won't buy into that project.

Posted by: Prof | Jul 26 2021 16:56 utc | 3

The rules of which the world order is based, or should be based, are too subtle to formulate without phrases with variable meaning like "our adversaries" etc. For example, "telecommunication equipment [in all countries <-- this is a rule for the world] shall have backdoors for our intelligence agencies.

One rule that is hard for me to formulate in English is "łaska pańska na pstrym koniu jeździ", roughly "lord's favor rides a horse with many colors", one day it looks mostly brown, other day white, and at times, black. The local keepers of the rule-based-world-order in Ukraine are visibly upset by this type of change.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 26 2021 16:59 utc | 4

Sadly, I sit here in Canada rooting for the 'other side'

Posted by: ld | Jul 26 2021 17:03 utc | 5

By far the most important statement in the entire article is this quote from Foreign Minister Wang Yi-

“If the United States has not learned how to get along with other countries on an equal footing by now, then it is our responsibility, together with the international community, to give the US a good tutorial in this regard.”

That is a serious warning from China. They will teach the US a lesson. A painful lesson, no doubt.

Looking at the military and economic might of China, one can see that is no empty threat.

Posted by: Mar man | Jul 26 2021 17:05 utc | 6

I’m genuinely curious whether the US foreign policy and political elite actually believe the stupid shit they say or if it’s just a game to them. Second, I wonder if they actually believe they have any tools left to stop China from doing whatever it wants? They’re clearly not serious about competing with China since the USG is not funding huge infrastructure and industrial policy initiatives. Just more money for DoD which hasn’t won a war in which the enemy fought back since 1945.

Posted by: Lex | Jul 26 2021 17:06 utc | 7

b's post and the quotes like "Xie said China wants to seek common ground while shelving differences, highlighting a divide in the basic approach to their relationship." reminded me of this 14-minute YouTube video that I had seen not too long ago and found interesting:

"A Diplomatic Tale of Two Centuries: Chinese Humanism & Western Exceptionalism"

It's from a pair of twenty-something final-year law students from Hong Kong, studying in London, who go by the name KeyBros for their videos.

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Jul 26 2021 17:24 utc | 8

The problem is that US has a very incoherent set of objectives when dealing with China (and in fact, with any other countries). Military complex wants military tensions to get more funding and sells arms to Taiwan/other countries. Wall Street wants calmness to allow investors to make money while putting pressure on China to open its market. Republican / neo-con wants toughness, at least rhetorically, for political points. Democrat wants toughness so that they do not losing points. Environmentalist wants cooperation to help climate. Some corporation wants more trades to make money while others want less trades to protect their domestic market shares. Racist wants less contact with China and to restrict immigrants, while high-tech companies and colleges wants more openness to Chinese researchers/students,.... and so on (you get the idea).

How to make a coherent, consistent and meaningful foreign policy (and actually any policy) is just beyond me.

Posted by: d dan | Jul 26 2021 17:29 utc | 9

How long then will it take until the U.S. recognizes that and steps down from its illusion of supremacy?

Only the dissolution of the US will their illusion of supremacy end. Sad but I don't see it any other way.

Posted by: Ian2 | Jul 26 2021 17:41 utc | 10

Well, it was obvious for a while, that US sphere of power will be reduced to Americas, and that is questionable in which extent. Depends on desire of East to help enslaved South American people, which, I believe, will happen by exporting them tools&expertise to fight back. Don't forget they have long history of fighting US imperialism, and with right help, a lot can change there.

Posted by: Abe | Jul 26 2021 17:42 utc | 11

CHN, like RUS, are approaching the "Critical Mass" of becoming a truly Sovereign Nation-State independent, self-sufficient, and prosperous apart from the USA_ForeignPolicy-Pressure, USA_Trade, USD/UST, PetroUSD, USA_Corporates, USA_Military-Occupation/Intrusion, and USA_MIC-Infiltration.

Most Others are G20/ZATO/MIC Hegemony Vassal-States.

IND are dependent on the USA_Trade and H-1b+GreenCardWorkers+Immigration.

Even CHE may not be - due to their Banks' Involvement in the USA and USA-MIC_FMS (F/A-18 Jets).

SWE and FIN may not be due to their Joint NATO Exercises...

LBY used to be a Quasi-Independent Nation-State.

Tough to be Independent....

Posted by: IronForge | Jul 26 2021 17:42 utc | 12

Posted by: d dan | Jul 26 2021 17:29 utc | 9

"The problem is that US has a very incoherent set of objectives when dealing with China (and in fact, with any other countries). Military complex wants military tensions to get more funding and sells arms to Taiwan/other countries. Wall Street wants calmness to allow investors to make money while putting pressure on China to open its market."

While that would make sense, one must understand that Wall Street considers the US military the kinetic enforcement arm of the financial empire and has no qualms using military force to achieve business goals.

For further reading, study Smedley Butler's book "War is a racket."

A quote From Butler- “I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism."

Also read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins. He describes how Wall Street uses the US military to overthrow governments that refuse to submit to US corporate demands.

Posted by: Mar man | Jul 26 2021 18:09 utc | 13

USA: outraged at being treated as an equal by a Runaway Slave.

Posted by: mijj | Jul 26 2021 18:13 utc | 14

My commentary on b's article I already posted to the Week in Review thread and consisted of three Global Times articles on this overall issue. Those were followed by a comment on Pepe Escobar's report on the newest Outlaw US Empire ploy to disrupt the BRI. Omitted by b is the cyber hacking from North American ISPs of the Chinese petition signed by 13 Million people so far that if Covid-origin tracing is to be politicized then Ft. Detrick must be investigated, which proves that China's public is motivated on the overall issue of confrontation with the Outlaw US Empire since it's been ongoing for almost 4 years now.

The biggest problem the Empire has as I've commented before is its geoeconomic dependency on supply chains that originate in China which undermines any attempt to coerce China--the Outlaw US Empire does not in any fashion have a position of strength versus China. It's the opposite for the reason I just provided. And that disadvantaged position is widening, not narrowing. And ironically, Biden's infrastructure plan is quite dependent on China for the materials needed to do the job. So, domestic policy is hostage to foreign policy in a way not seen by the Empire for many decades--almost 200 years.

It should also be noted that China's now the head ASEAN nation with Indonesia being the latest nation to follow China's policy leads. Adding ASEAN's population to China's gives that group a population of 2 Billion people. Combine that with the SCO and BRICS nations and over half of humanity is on China's side of the equation, while the Outlaw US Empire and its NATO vassals don't quite make 800 Million--and a large % of them are in rebellion.

To answer d dan @9, both domestic and foreign policy are supposed to be based on what's in a nation's national interest, meaning that of its public, not a tiny oligarchy. That's where why we see such a huge disconnect between those two within the Empire and its vassals--none act in the public interest. If they did, they'd have joined with China's BRI at the outset, not have raped Russia after the USSR's fall, and not have advanced NATO to Russia's borders--it would have been disbanded. And those are just the main points.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 26 2021 18:14 utc | 15

For the first time China laid bare the most damning accusations against Western imbeciles: Genocide of indigenous people in the past; war crimes in the present, and glaring incompetence in their own domestic governances. All too true, all too obvious, and all too shameful to their own citizenries. Count on China/Russia/Iran/NKorea to pound on these points time and again in the war words in times to come!!!!

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jul 26 2021 18:15 utc | 16

At this point in time, wherever the USA claims there are “human rights abuses,” it’s done to vilify China, and to vilify nations that cooperate with China.

Wherever the US sponsors terrorism, proxy wars, or “color revolutions” the US now does it to disrupt China’s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). Examples include Belarus, Pakistan, Thailand, Xinjiang, Myanmar, and others. However the USA is losing. So far, 140 nations participate in China’s Belt and Road Initiative. That’s two thirds of the world.

Wherever China lifts a nation out of poverty, the West declares that nation guilty of “genocide.”

At the last G7 Summit (11-13 June 2021) Biden’s answer to China’s Belt and Road Initiative was his “Build Back Better World” initiative. This is a smokescreen behind which the US continues to bomb and attack nations that cooperate with China.

The USA could build roads, dams, bridges, airports, railways, and electric grids worldwide like China does -- but no.

If the West cannot enslave a nation, the West destroys that nation.

This is called “bringing them freedom and democracy.”

Posted by: Alonzo Ramirez Perez | Jul 26 2021 18:26 utc | 17

"Under these circumstances I for one fail to see how the U.S. could win in a longer cold conflict."

Why, the usual methods: dirty tricks. If one is exceptionally good at it, one doesn't need to be stronger than his opponent. It takes time, but it works.

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Jul 26 2021 18:31 utc | 18

“Competition is a code word for confrontation”
– Jake Sullivan, National Security Advisor

The Financial Empire is at WAR with China and Russia. It wants to maintain its hegemonic control over the world. It isn’t going to give up its dream of a global empire for which it has worked over CENTURIES. The Empire appears committed to defeating China and Russia in a struggle for global supremacy. In Empire’s usual way, the well-known operational cutlery is now unpacked: agitation and propaganda, sanctions, destabilization of China, match in the streets of Taiwan as well as on the Chinese western border. And let’s not forget the turmoil in Hong Kong. All in accordance with the 1994 TRADOC paper.

Relations among China, Russia, and the U$A currently resemble a scalene triangle, in which the greatest distance between the three points lies between Moscow and Washington. Within this triangle, Chinese-Russian relations are the most positive and stable, and they’re leading De-DOLLARIZATION. Russia has de-dollarized faster than China, reducing its UST holdings significantly, eliminating dollar investment from its national wealth fund and selling its energy mostly in Non-$ currencies. Both Beijing and Moscow object to Washington’s use of force against and imposition of sanctions on other countries and to the double standards the United States applies in its foreign policies.

Without the US$ as the reserve currency the U$A financial sector is toast and the Financial Empire nears death.

China has been disciplined, focused and executed well to strengthen its geostrategic position. It knows TIME is on its side and doesn’t want to rock the system as it is benefiting the most. China has the confidence to avoid the historical precedent by improving dialogue and coordination with the U$A side. However, the Financial Empire knows this reality and is working towards striking China & Russia. As long as, China is conducting its international trade in the US$, it is a VASSAL of the Dollar Empire. What % of China’s international trade is in the US$? Why is China letting Empire’s financial firms enter the Chinese market? When will China’s majority of international trade happen in Non-$ currencies?

We’re in a dynamic era, a “world in transition” – a flowery paraphrase for bloody wars.

Why is China funding the Financial Empire, its adversary?

Posted by: Max | Jul 26 2021 18:32 utc | 19

@ Posted by: Lex | Jul 26 2021 17:06 utc | 7

China is still a very poor, very weak country. The American elites are correct when they state it is still possible to fully contain and destroy China.

Besides, there's always the possibility of Russia falling to the liberals after Putin's death. I'm curious to see what will happen to Russia when the last generation of Soviet-educated people dies - my bet is the purely Russian generations will behave much like the other Eastern European countries nowadays, and fully finish the Yeltsinite project of privatizations and liquidation of whatever is left of the Russian infrastructure and knowledge to the American capitalists, thus converting Russia into a full-fledged Third World Country.

A Russia-USA alliance would be an insurmountable enemy to China - it would be, by far, the biggest blood-bath, extermination in History; the killing of 1.4 billion people; it would make the Holocaust look like children's literature in comparison.

The USA eventually will fall as a world empire. But it may or may not be in this era, and may or may be not in the hands of China. That's why the American elites still have faith in what is its last struggle for capitalism against socialism. Let's be real: the generation of Joe Biden will not live enough to see the results of their actions; in some 20 years or so, the Boomer generation will cease to exist, and whatever becomes the USA will lay in the hands of the Millennial generation. There's a pinch of last stand, of gerontocracy (even Trump is near the end of his life, and his successor Nikki Haley will be somewhere near 60 when she succeeds him), of desperation in Biden's foreign policy - which makes the present era even more interesting, even more fascinating.

We live in definitive interesting times, one of the moments in Human History we like to call a "dangerous corner" (of humanity's fate). Whatever rises from this, one thing is certain: nothing will be like it was before, for good and for bad. If you would like to "go back to the good ol' times", you're out of luck, you were born in the wrong era.

China needs two things that are out of its control: 1) peace, at any price - a hot world war must be avoided at all costs (even at the cost of swallowing its pride with Taiwan's absurd provocations) and 2) to Russia to keep being and behaving like a sovereign nation. If those two variables are kept more or less intact, only a miracle would save the American Empire (some Deus ex Machina revolutionary technology/ies arising in American territory, that would give capitalism a Fourth Industrial Revolution comparable to the Second Industrial Revolution, thus giving it insurmountable military supremacy over both Russia and China at the same time).

Posted by: vk | Jul 26 2021 18:48 utc | 20

Can't say I'm rooting for China (not out of hate or fear -- I just don't know anything* about that country, and if anyone here can point to texts about contemporary China and Chinese politics worth reading, I'd like to thank you in advance) but I certainly won't mind it shaking things up a bit. The US finally found an "enemy" that is apparently strong enough and actually willing to oppose it proper (unlike Russia, which to me seems just content staying a mini-civilization of its own and doing it's own thing; only defending itself when it's existence is threatened but not else - maybe that's just Putin's way of doing foreign policy).

I find it hard to strike up neutral conversations about China among workmates or friends - in no small part probably due to nutjobs like Zenz still being taken seriously and spreading verbal ejaculate about the Yellow Peril. Maybe it's just people repeating the talking points they are forcibly bombarded with (But Social Scoring! But Surveillance! But Evil Dictator Dictating What Everyone Else Must Do!) while having - due to no interest in the matter - no actual opinion of their own. But shouldn't the right thing to say in this situation be "look, I don't know, so don't bother me with it"..?

* The kind of info besides geographical location, population, languages spoken... such as: How does China handle floods? (Germany is currently busy deflecting responsibility) How widespread is corporate corruption and fraud in China? (News that Tsinghua Unigroup is bankrupt is making the rounds, but these news around here always seem to carry a slight aftertaste of schadenfreude) How is the relationship between mainland China and Taiwan? (Some people describe these two entities as bitter enemies, but to me it seems like an exclusively political issue and the population at large doesn't really care either way)

Posted by: pachinko | Jul 26 2021 19:05 utc | 21

U.S. China-Talk Points To A Longer Conflict
There, fixed it for you, b.
One can only describe a conference between two entities as "talks" if both sides are "listening".

Since AmeriKKKa usually stops listening when anyone else is talking, unless it hears something it can misconstrue, most "talks" involving AmeriKKKans could be more accurately described as "lectures" - especially when they're in Bullhorn Diplomacy mode via the MSM.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 26 2021 19:08 utc | 22

Technology gap, I was impressed by Toyota's robot that was able to scoop up a basketball and sink a basket from mid-court within 10 seconds.

the Olympic basketball shooting Robot
It was humanoid, mobile, and used optics, arms and hands to shoot the basketball. Is anyone here familiar w/Robotics, is this just hum drum state of the art or is this actually impressive?

My point of bringing it up in this thread is that I am wondering about America's so-called technology lead over China. I don't know if the U.S. can build anything like this, which countries have robotics in this category?

Posted by: Christian J. Chuba | Jul 26 2021 19:11 utc | 23


In the event Russia teams up with USA in an alliance against China, I'm sure Chinese would not sit idly by at home and await fireballs to fall from the skies. A few hundred millions will be pulverized by all these nukes I'm sure, but 1 billion out of the 1.4 billion you cited would move every which way and fight in enemy land. My bet would still be that they will prevail.

Russia teaming up with American would not spring out of liberalism. It would be racism plain and simple.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jul 26 2021 19:14 utc | 24

Max #19

To respond to your final question, China has perhaps held back the dedollarisation ploy for later use at a key point or even a permanent threat. Just as the usa uses Taiwan as a permanent irritant.

IMO the usa has little left other than a false flag trigger. And that is a precarious ploy at best.

I imagine China will be doing increasingly sophisticated space activity with Russia that will totally trash many misperceptions of USA dominance. Equally the usa will be getting a constant flogging for abandoning its people at all levels of social security. Then there will be stiff push back at USA interference in other nations. Clearly the usa is entering an Amish phase as it dawdles down the road in its hydrcarbon buggy imagining its superiority and purity.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jul 26 2021 19:14 utc | 25

Vk, China is certainly NOT a 'weak' country. That is just absurd, and so self-evident, on so many levels, that it hardly needs any further elucidation.

As for the US, it's already finished. Even today, it is not much more than a Brazil with a thick layer of bloated financial parasites. A Ponzi house of cards that is so far in the hole that it will never regain any kind of vitality.

Russia needs to take a page out of China's playbook. Xi just cracked down hard on the private education system [tutoring], which was getting out of hand, and becoming a parallel education system.

Russia needs to take control of its central bank and financial system, and use it like China has in building infrastructure and key industry.

The allure of the west continues in the minds of some, as the disneyland myth seems to die hard. But each passing day puts paid to the hollywood delusions.

Posted by: Gordog | Jul 26 2021 19:16 utc | 26

@ Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jul 26 2021 19:14 utc | 24

I agree. If I were a member of the CPC Politburo, I would already be petitioning for China to start ramping up its nuclear arsenal to such a capacity of being capable of not only turning the entirety of Mainland USA into a nuclear wasteland, but also to annihilate at least the entire Novgorod and Transcaucasia regions of the Russian Federation, so that the entire Russian civilization is wiped out of the map instantly. God knows what these American-loving Navalnyists/ from the newer generation will do with Russia after the generation of Putin, Lavrov et al is gone.

Posted by: vk | Jul 26 2021 19:24 utc | 27

@ Gordog | Jul 26 2021 19:16 utc | 26 who wrote
Russia needs to take control of its central bank and financial system, and use it like China has in building infrastructure and key industry.

Every country needs to do an economic geography assessment of its country/peoples and build/maintain a society that supports the regional cultures and abilities of its citizens.

One would hope that a real United Nations would foster such activities rather than the colonization approach of this and past empires....but this is what you get when you have a global cult of private finance owners that treat nations like chess pieces on their Great Game board.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 26 2021 19:45 utc | 28

The USA is not supremacy-downgrade capable. The opaque power structure - the scions of the rules-based order - are not accountable or even really identifiable, and will just continue to grasp for everything.

However, as Peter Lee points out, the employees of this rules-based order are notable for their willingness to dish it out but are also thoroughly unable to take it. The whining shocked reaction to Chinese sanctions on the part of Australia and EU - two recent examples - bear that out. Anticipate a lot of whining in near future.

Posted by: jayc | Jul 26 2021 19:45 utc | 29

All of you commentators missing one very important issue : the judo Christian attitude , they think they are superior to every one including the yellow race , it is all racism and stupid religious belief, especially the Zionist whom they think they are smarter than every body else , they are ruling the US policy in the Middle East and thought the world to the benefit of Israel and Zionism .
This policy will back fire no doubt about it , no one ever became supreme , think what happen to the Germans .
They will paying very heavy price sooner or later .

Posted by: Bobby | Jul 26 2021 19:46 utc | 30

We’re living through an EPOCH in the history of humanity!

The key year is 2025. China’s plan is to become completely SOVEREIGN by then, technically, militarily and monetarily. They’re de-emphasizing this key milestone. Also, it will become economically larger than the U$A by 2025. Aren’t IMF & WB supposed to be in the biggest economy of the world? How about the UN? Wouldn’t Taiwan want to trade with the largest economy and the biggest manufacturer in the world? China’s plans are going well!

The U$A and the Financial Empire don’t have decades! Their biggest challenges are TIME & LUCK! Let’s see if we Americans can focus on building our nation through industrial capitalism and avoiding distractions of Empire’s misadventures. This is our challenge. The U$A has been corrupted and captured by the Financial Sector of the Global Financial SYNDICATE through the reserve currency. Please don’t discount American ingenuity. It is still among the best in the world. Let’s see which nation does well at the 2021 Olympics. It is time for the United States of America to be sovereign!

The Financial Empire is not confident of its hold over the U$A. It is preparing for all eventualities. Financial Empire’s plan is to hold down its rival China. The representatives of the former British Empire – and here above all the City of LONDON – have other priorities. They could use the decline of the U$A to revive their old Empire. That is where the brexit makes perfect sense. It could just be the HUB of multiple powers, playing one against other. It has control over its big colonies of Canada, Australia and New Zealand. London is #1 in the currency trading and #2 in financial trading and a big mafia of the regulatory arbitrage. The British Empire has maintained its POWER by abusing other nations like France, Germany, the United States of America, Russia, Iran, ME,...? Who does the Global Financial Syndicate serve?

Where is Britain going?

Posted by: Max | Jul 26 2021 19:55 utc | 31

Gordog @26

Russia already has a strong state education system. Russians (both ethnic and citizens), do not home school, that is reserved for old-believers and conservative western immigrants. My daughters and granddaughters all went/are going through the state schools/colleges and the standard of education is as good as the better Australian schools. Technical education is superb.

The allure of the west has rapidly died since 2014, except amongst the "liberal dreamers". The biggest problem is the influence of western social media amongst the young. Luckily the Russian alternatives are very popular, and smartphones are pre-set with these and not western apps.

vk @20

Russia and China have entered into a symbiotic relationship for their own survival. I don't see that unravelling in the next twenty years at least. Putin will be succeeded by a member of the silovki. Have a look at some of the Governors that he has appointed. There are both young and middle aged persons, and they are being groomed as successors. Putin saw how bad gerontocracy was for the Soviet Union, he won't go down that road. As too the liberals taking control, there's a snowballs chance in Hell of that happening. I can just see the Muslim and Orthodox populations voting for a "rainbow" candidate -NOT!

Posted by: Cossack | Jul 26 2021 20:02 utc | 32

"How long then will it take until the U.S. recognizes that and steps down from its illusion of supremacy?"

Until some event triggers a financial collapse. Before that, the US will play an "aggressive defense" by cutting sharp any alternative financial channel to the Dollar for international commerce.

Without the USD as the main transactional World currency, the US will have to run trade surpluses in EUR or any other foreign currency in order to import oil, raw materials, crops and finished products. The US didn't run trade surpluses for a very, very long time (for many decades excepting a few Clinton years), so those surpluses won't happen and the country will face a sharp decline in consumption, a deadly blow to the American Dream and thus to the domestic cohabitation among races and classes.

Posted by: Andres | Jul 26 2021 20:05 utc | 33

I will riff off Bobby | Jul 26 2021 19:46 utc | 30 who wrote about the faith based aspect of the cult of the West.

China has created and executed going on 14 5-year plans which has all happened with a certain level of transparency.

The West has faith breather supported private finance decision makers including both resource allocation but any potential risk management decisions as there any transparency or public input?....don't worry, they are doing God's work..../snark

There is a structural issue here that is not just a few bad apples or a little bit of bad judgement...all happening in back rooms.... The global Covid response by governments in the West is a real education about social priorities....profit and lives be dammed.

Will the real issue of the unspoken social contract in the West with some unknown cult of private individuals owning the BIS, World Bank, IMF, FED, SWIFT and associated private Central Banks of other nations owning the lifeblood of all commerce be discussed in the open in public forums? If this forum is any example, most people avoid discussing such and want to leave thinking about it to others.....just need more faith.....sigh

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 26 2021 20:14 utc | 34

@ Posted by: Abe | Jul 26 2021 17:42 utc | 11

I think the USA will be victorious against Cuba (i.e. Cuba will eventually fall) and I also think the USA still has enough resources and structure to keep the entirety of the American continent as its "backyard" for a long time. The key here is Brazil: Brazil still is under absolute control of the USA, with no end in sight.

Nixon's maxim is still valid: if you control Brazil, you control Latin America (or at least you have 90% of the job done).

Posted by: vk | Jul 26 2021 20:14 utc | 35

people are supposed to compete with each other? to do what? burn the planet down?

it's not possible to cooperate regarding the environment and compete with each other. at all. in any way. it's a contradiction that will only be resolved thru war and mutual self-destruction.

fortunately for China, the US is a nation of morons. to be safe though, China should definitely encourage alcoholism and drug use among US personnel staffing the nuclear machine. When Blinken decides to nuke Beijing, Bacchus can intervene. won't it be awesome if they launch a war but everyone is too hungover to show up?

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Jul 26 2021 20:15 utc | 36

@ uncle tungsten (#25), good points. China would rather pursue the existing global financial trajectory supplemented by its “dual circulation” economic strategy to achieve SOVEREIGNTY by 2025. Ones it has successfully got its “internal circulation” going it will be well positioned - the domestic cycle of production, distribution, and consumption - for its development, supported by innovation and upgrades in the economy. However, this hypothesis is China’s weak point and might be exploited by the Empire.

Three decades ago, Deng Xiaoping adopted a “great international circulation” strategy, but the 2008-09 global crisis exposed the vulnerability of the export-led model and prodded policymakers to rebalance growth towards domestic demand. The “dual circulation” strategy has become a key priority in the government’s 14th five-year plan (2021-2025).

China’s big advantage is that it has learned from Empire’s past ploys and hasn’t made big mistakes. It hasn’t let its currency float like Russia and the State has controlled the monetary supply of the nation! It is good to see China leading in the digital currency arena. Wished it was the U$A.

In the digital world, nations can trade in respective sovereign national currencies through currency swaps. No more monetary imperialism and enslavement.

Posted by: Max | Jul 26 2021 20:17 utc | 37

The US wants to uphold the international rules-based order. Is that the same US that bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, killing three?

Posted by: Passerby | Jul 26 2021 20:28 utc | 38

pachinko @21--

Thanks for your honest confession about knowledge of China. I've studied China rather closely since 1995, although my first experience with China and things Chinese was with the food, culture (we often visited San Francisco's Chinatown during the 1960s), its exploits and experiences in California during the Gold Rush and the building of the railroad through the Sierras, then Peral Buck's Good Earth followed closely by Edgar Snow's Red Star Over China by the time of Nixon's visit in 1971. My advice would be to begin reading China's English language media--Global Times, Xinhua, People's Daily--and to buy or get from your library a copy of John King Fairbank's China: A New History (used copies can be found for as little as 99 cents plus shipping) for starters. I'll also suggest reading this essay by one of China's top scholars, Zhang Weiwei, which is excerpted from his book, The China Wave: Rise of a Civilizational State, an open preview of which can be read at the link.

Currently, Western Media is mostly inundated with lies about China since it's being demonized as the Enemy du Jour by the Outlaw US Empire and its vassals, so much of what's published is rubbish. IMO and that of many here at MoA, Chinese media has much greater credibility. I'll close by saying this older publication detailing China's national plan for implementing the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development as promoted by the UN contains the underlying rationale for many of China's policies.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 26 2021 20:32 utc | 39

If any one think China people are morans , think again , this leadership and people determine to succeed and pass the west and Europe in the dust , mark my word , and I hope I live to see it , because you cannot bully people so long , the US should be the big brother who help and educate and leaves the people alone to decide their destiny , not the other way around .
Enough crab from Britain , France and the US .

Posted by: Bobby | Jul 26 2021 20:35 utc | 40

In China's wings is Russia. US has ZERO chance against both China and Russia. Russia has the ability to toss the oil trade such that it will knock out the legs on the USD's position as reserve currency. Shift more oil/gas trade away from the USD puts pressure on the ME producers, of which Saudi Arabia is already starting to ramp up trade with China, to trade outside of the USD. The path to knocking down the US is pretty easy to see. And Russia's military prowess can also check the US's. So, all that needs to be done is to start switching the trade exchanges away from USD. It took China and Russia coming closer together to make this work: stupid folks in D.C. thought they could keep a split here but that was botched- instead they've driven the two countries together. The end game is all but obvious...

Posted by: Seer | Jul 26 2021 20:36 utc | 41

Western Imperialism NEEDS China/Russia/ the OTHER as a perceived enemy only for one reason, the same old reason, to keep its own populations under control. Owned as they always have been as serfs and slaves. If THEY suddenly realise, as they have done periodically, that their lords and masters are cold blooded and don’t care about the people, letting our bodies pile high, as the Aristos carry on living their life of leisure.
The diversion to a ‘greater’ threat is now so old, I doubt most ordinary people will respond by dumping Chinese goods or sending their teenage kids to die in Eurasia. And the RoW, will also climb out from under the Imperialist Boot. To trade in their own currencies and form the Economic Security pacts and investments of the BRI and new financial institutions that are not the World Bank, IMF or the Bank of International Settlements. With the Fed run Dollar hagemony!

The Empire is dead, dead, dead.

Long live the real Law based Earth order without exceptions.

Posted by: DG | Jul 26 2021 20:38 utc | 42

Zero-sum vs. win-win. I through my lot -- the whole of it -- with the latter.

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Jul 26 2021 20:43 utc | 43

The US is never going to lose it's superiority complex, but it could at least take "Diplomacy" lessons to cover it up.


Any analysis of China (or Russia) vs. US must take into account that there is no unified leadership in the US. It is Corporate finance with any other actor you can think of. Each is superior and each has desires and commands that they think should be obeyed without question or for a small fee. (Like Macron for the French).

If the Chinese "teach them a lesson" (Concentrate their minds) it might even be a favour. Unity can come from facing mutual threats.

Conspiracy theories;

However, the breakdown of a "rules or law based order" is most clearly seen in the US itself. Which in turn is to allow the "reset" to install forever a unscalable separation between the "Ultra" Financial Oligarchy and the Serfs. Possibly they hope to complete the servitude of the masses in time to wage a (real) war against China, or use western people as coolies as forced and underpaid labour. That might be far fetched as a theory, as a gamble it is insane, but that won't stop it.
The Ultra Oligarchs have a $700 trillion derivatives bet going on that there will NOT be a rise in interest rates due to industry starting to be active again. The bets can only be covered/pay off in 2023. They have no financial interest in getting things to going until that date. They are in the position that to "win" there has to be no change in the Financial conditions that exist at the moment.


Said more reasonably; the US has no way of changing direction as they have deliberately devalued their own leadership by putting Biden in place, to allow hidden groups to get what they want.

Posted by: Stonebird | Jul 26 2021 20:43 utc | 44

As for the islets in the South China Sea: Before the year 1900 the Qíng Dynasty in China asked the Empreor of Ann-am (now Viet-Nám), THE KING OF Siam (Now Tailand) to agree the reefs in the South China sea were Chinese. They all agreed. Asdid The people's Republic in Viet-Nâm under Ho Chi-Min and the newly independent Phillipenes.
Both the People's republic of China (Mainland China) end The Republic of China (temporarly on Táiwan) stand steadfast and adamant with these klaimes.
Since all other littoral stets around the South China Sea have already accepted this, there can be no case to be brought before the International Court of Settlements (or Voldgift/Coucilliation) in the Hague. Just "F... off!"

Posted by: Tollef Ås/秋涛乐/טלפ וש | Jul 26 2021 20:49 utc | 45

I am confused.

GM sells more cars in China than it sells in the continental US. A significant number of US firms derive the majority of their profits from the Chinese market. I cannot understand these firms seeking to undermine their own corporate interests by promoting increased tensions between China and the US; I cannot see them contemplating a "hot war" without contemplating the effect of such war on their own revenues and corporate futures.

In the event of conflict three outcomes are likely:

1) China restricts all US firms from repatriating profits and/or nationalizes all US firms now operating in China. GM, Starbucks, McDonalds, and KFC continue to operate but under new ownership.

2) US consumers are then faced with a surge in costs as Chinese supplied goods are no longer available in the domestic market. Moving the associated jobs to China required in excess of 10 years. It will take equally as long to re-shore those jobs and production facilities to the US, or to any other location outside China.

3) This relocation will require immense amounts of capital at the exact moment corporate revenues and profits are subject to a sudden decline.

Why would American corporate interests risk this series of events? I do not think they would. If oligarchic interests control US policies, why would the corporate sector endorse the actions of the Biden administration since doing so results in cutting their own throats?

My surmise is that the Biden administration's China stance is all bluff and political grandstanding which, like the 1/6 political show trials presently in process in Washington, are intended primarily for domestic consumption only - an attempt to impress the uncomprehending yokels.

Since there is no apparent reaction from the US business press, either the US corporate sector fails to understand their obligations in law or, most likely, have been privately informed the Biden administration is full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

Is my interpretation of events incorrect? Can anyone supply a more coherent explanation?

Posted by: Sushi | Jul 26 2021 20:50 utc | 46

@ Gordog (#26), please name a nation that has changed its financial system without a revolution.

Our global history shows that it has taken a revolution to change the financial system from sovereign to PRIVATE. This fractal has been the driving force of revolutions and the establishment of CENTRAL BANKS in the world. The revolutions in England, America, French and Russian, were followed by creation of the private central banks: BOE (1694), First Bank of the U$A (1791), Bank of France (1800), People’s Bank of USSR (1917- state controlled)... An interesting fractal emerges from revolutions and foundations of democracies. Name a democracy that isn’t a suzerainty.

"The true equation is ‘democracy’ = government by world financiers.”
– J.R.R. Tolkien

Vladimir Putin is cautiously and slowly moving Russia towards gaining its sovereignty. He was candid in stating during the Q&A session that Russia is working towards gaining its economic sovereignty. He seems to have focused on strengthening Russia’s defenses and developing a siege economy to maintain territorial sovereignty. Now he seems to be going on offensive?

Let all nations be SOVEREIGN to define their destiny!

Posted by: Max | Jul 26 2021 20:52 utc | 47

Like all Empires, the US hegemonic empire has come to its end. It influences no one any longer.

Russia has the military edge and is pacing away from the US MIC capacity to produce what is needed to stay dominant.

China is developing at a significant rate that provides it all the wealth it needs to outpace the US technologically over the next 5-10 years. The edge the US once possessed is going away rapidly.

Meanwhile, the US has to herd its allies, Five Eyes and NATO/EU like feral cats.

There is no attribute or asset the US possesses that gets it back atop a unipolar world. That day is gone. Russia and China diplomatically wait for it to see the reality of multipolarity and cooperation. Though they are not waiting a second to proceed with their major geopolitical goal of Eurasian Integration.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Jul 26 2021 21:06 utc | 48

Gordog @26--

I'll supplement Cossack's reply @32 with my analysis of its political-economy since Putin regained control in 2001. Putin's goal for the Russian government is to uplift Russia and Russians--a task that actually goes together one building the other. Russia has a very Soviet appearing economy at present as the entire effort of the state is to uplift its peoples and thus increase its vitality with a heavy focus on family building and support along with inclusiveness for All Russians, the latter point being stressed at every opportunity. Putin's political party, United Russia, differs little in its primary mission from that of the CPSU as he recently told party members at their most recent Congress which I reported here. Some want to call what he's doing State Capitalism; but IMO, it has more in common with China's system with its many strategic industries being state-owned. I recently reported the fact that Russia makes long term plans that differ little from the USSR's 5-Year plans, except they're not called that anymore. Again as with China, you must watch and listen to what they do and say, not what Western Media and governments say about them. Putin often denies this, but he's the best Tsar Russia has ever had, but he doesn't rule autocratically. He makes suggestions and leads Russia's legislature, a task made easy since United Russia has firm control over both Houses. The funny part is you can easily follow what he does daily through the Kremlin website. As I reported last week, Putin demands feedback from Russia's people to determine how well they're being governed, and for the government's representatives to provide it. United Russia party members are there to first and foremost serve Russia's people--which is exactly what the CPC demands of its members.

So, Russia's current political-economy is a hybrid containing components from its several former natures, it's closet comparison being China, which is why they groove so well as Strategic Partners. Russia's Central Bank is firmly under Putin's direction and is charged with providing the economy and Russians with the means to better themselves and the nation, not favor private entities whose only aim is greed. Many complain that a Neoliberal heads the RCB (I don't classify her as such anymore), but she's clearly subordinate to not just Putin, but also to the Russian state and its people.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 26 2021 21:09 utc | 49

Posted by: vk | Jul 26 2021 20:14 utc | 35

I think the USA will be victorious against Cuba

Cuba has been US's pet project/hostage since Fidel took it over. Think. For last 60 or so years, little, sanctioned and surrounded communist country existing bordering strongest capitalist one, even when US was unchallenged after USSR collapse, and managed to exist? How come? (I believe US kept it that way as an example, to scare its enemies in own ranks and abroad, but it is beyond the point here).

Purely militarily, Cuba could have been taken over by US any time. Politically, not so cheaply. And that was then. You can expect 10x cost now, both politically and militarily. So no, if Cuba was not conquered so far, it is too late now.

As far as the rest of Americas go (South one), don't forget US is rotting from inside out. World sees it. You can't analyze possible scenarios there using framework of Cold War or unchallenged US from its prime time. So, I believe South America will bring lot of surprises, now that only player there is weakened (US) and new players are ready to come into game, helping out local folks.

Posted by: Abe | Jul 26 2021 21:24 utc | 50

Sushi @46--

You raise some valid points that reveal the schism within the Outlaw US Empire's ruling oligarchy between the Industrial and Financial Capitalists that helped elevate Trump in 2016. The biggest cover up is that fact that the USA cannot provide for its entire citizenry although legislation was enacted in 1946--the Full Employment Act--to ensure that wouldn't happen--yet another law disobeyed that went undisciplined.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 26 2021 21:26 utc | 51

@ Sushi (#46), to understand the financial, economic and corporate games of the Financial Empire, one needs to focus on the different factions of its oligarchs (financial & business). What happened to the individual who developed the AC current that energies today’s Internet, computer, home appliances,...? George Westinghouse (business elite) and Tesla introduced that innovation and it was STOLEN from them by J.P.Morgan (financial elite). Morgan stole their company to merge it and create GE. It is a great case study to understand International Financial Oligarchy’s (IFO) gameplay of boom-bust cycles. They want to OWN the world. Light was stolen in the U$A.

We Americans are destroying our credibility and brand through sanctions and international abuses. The Global Financial Syndicate already controls big corporations and has created a big bubble by creating lots of money. It can be converting its financial gains to real assets and sell its bad entities to the Fed. When the bubble busts, it can buy for “pennies on the dollar.” It has never cared about the American workers or corporate managers or business elites. How has the Financial Empire CONSOLIDATED its power from boom-bust cycles?

“These ‘clubs’ act, rule, breed and think like a compact oligarchy, and co-opt the middle class to use it as a filter between themselves and their cannon fodder: the commoners. In fact, in the so-called ‘democratic constituency,’ which represents to date the most sophisticated model of oligarchic rule, the electorate wields no clout whatever, and political ability is but another expression for the powers of persuasion needed to ‘build consensus’ around (momentous) decisions already taken elsewhere.” How did the Empire restructure and reconfigure Germany after WWI and WWII? Who was BETRAYED?

Similarly, China doesn’t need to nationalize American businesses. They should boycott those businesses and let them fail, and Chinese entrepreneurs can then buy them for “pennies on the dollar.” If China nationalize those businesses then the U$A’s corporate masters will demand a huge payout in China or the U$A courts. Most likely the U$A administration will freeze China’s holding and accounts. China won’t pursue the nationalization route.

The Global Financial Syndicate and its financial oligarchy buys at BARGAIN price.

What fractal emerges from Empire’s boom-bust cycles?

Posted by: Max | Jul 26 2021 21:45 utc | 52

The Canadian government picked up in the “rules based international order” BS some time back. No doubt the ultra-sycophantic Aussies, Kiwis and rest of the dumb-ass five eyes have as well.
Of course, this is a deflection from the inconvenient fact that the US and it’s puppets are in direct violation of international law in the matter of the illegal US presence in Syria and the issuing of illegal unilateral sanctions, to name but a couple of examples.

Posted by: nwwoods | Jul 26 2021 21:45 utc | 53

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 26 2021 21:26 utc | 51

The other explanation would be that what is being observed are simply the cultural contradictions of late stage capitalism.

Somebody wrote a book about this once. Cannot remember the ending.

Posted by: Sushi | Jul 26 2021 21:46 utc | 54

Our host asks:

How long then will it take until the U.S. recognizes that [cannot win cold war] and steps down from its illusion of supremacy?

It is impossible.

60 Minutes: We have heard that half a million [Iraqi] children have died. I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Madeleine Albright: I think that is a very hard choice, but the price, we think, the price is worth it.

To continue to believe "It was worth it!" Americans have to believe that they are exceptional and what they are killing kids for is also exceptional. Americans HAVE to believe that America represents the ultimate society and the end of history, otherwise the millions of murders they've committed and the appalling suffering they are inflicting around the world to remake the world in America's image not only becomes meaningless, but becomes the most horrific evil ever committed by any nation. Americans need to hold onto their delusion of exceptionality or they will have to face the fact they they have been the most brutal monsters in human history. If Americans let their delusions of exceptionality go then over a century (or two!) of the most heinous and unpardonable crimes against humanity will come crashing down on them.

Americans are absolutely not strong enough to face the magnitude of their crimes. They are locked into continuing those crimes, something like a nationwide moral sunk cost fallacy. They have to keep killing and torturing to justify all of the previous murder and torture, and that just makes the hole of karmic debt that the country is in deeper, forcing them to kill more to justify it. It is an irreversible downward spiral that Americans cannot break out of on their own.

It will take a very big and very painful "slap" from the rest of the world to stop America's killing spree. America will only stop when it physically lacks the capacity to continue. It doesn't have a choice.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 26 2021 21:58 utc | 55

This is one of the better comment threads I've seen in a while.
I'd like to add this: I don't hold out high hopes for the US. We waste an incredible amount of time and energy arguing about all kinds of stupid shit these days. Look at the games being played over the 'infrastructure' bills. These are aspirational and I'm not sure Pelosi and Schumer really want them to pass, so much as have an issue to take into the mid-term elections. Call China authoritarian, but I don't see this kind of nonsense going on there.
Also this: China teaming up with Russia seems like a natural-infinite natural resources meets infinite manufacturing capability. We also seem to be doing everything we can to drive them together.

Posted by: ian | Jul 26 2021 22:04 utc | 56

@ William Gruff (#55), good points.

Nations need to stop using the US$, a private money. Why do nations want to be a private plantation?

Until nations and their people are using the US$ for international trade and saving in those dollars, they are as guilty as Americans.

“Non-cooperation with evil is as much a duty as is cooperation with good.”
– Mahatma Gandhi

Posted by: Max | Jul 26 2021 22:12 utc | 57

Karlof, thanks for your interesting thoughts.

I can see some of the analogies you are drawing, between the CPC on the one hand, and Russia's system---and even elements of the Soviet system.

Here is my view in brief. Everything Russia has today is a result of what the USSR built. That includes, crucially, the advanced science and technologies, aerospace and nuclear...and also the world-leading higher education infrastructure that made that possible.

A lot of this has not been fully revived, after 20 years of the Putin system. Some progress has been made, here and there, but not nearly enough.

The Chinese take a much more vigorous approach. Considering where they were 20 years ago, they have made huge strides.

This is due to a big difference in approach. The CPC, like the Soviets, look at a crucial national requirement [again, like aerospace and education] and they simply decide to get it done, whatever it takes!

Today's Russia has not shown the ability to do that. Not on the large scale required.

Perhaps they are overly careful and do not want to borrow [from themselves, since any truly sovereign nation can create its own credit]. Russia has very little internal debt, and almost no outside debt.

That's great, but there is also the cost of foregone opportunity.

As for what the western critics say...well, they often say exactly that: look, Russia has just created an impressive fighter jet [or submarine, or hypersonic missile], but how many are they going to be able to produce?

Oftentimes this critique turns out to be right!

Here is the thing. These types of large science and technology undertakings need a critical mass of industry and academia. If they are allowed to keep shrinking, at some point you will reach the point of no return.

I don't see any reason why Russia should not put the pedal to the metal on its aerospace industry for example. They already possess unmatched technology that no one else has.

Uncle T, above, mentioned future space collaboration between Russia and China, and yes, the moon base plans and many other possibilities are not only exciting, but also vital to global leadership and soft power.

This is the power of such technical achievement. But Russia is not putting in enough resources, not by a long shot. Why?

PS: Rosatom, by contrast is living up to its potential, and basically straddles the globe, both technologically and commercially.

But aerospace is a different kettle of fish. Some profitable returns are possible, for instance commercial launch services, civil and military aircraft sales, etc.

But the truly big and prestigious projects have no such monetary payoff. The current US mars mission, with the impressive Perseverance Rover cost 2.5 billion. And it got there on Russian engines that the US has to buy because it can't make something of that class itself.

The Chinese Rover now on mars must have cost an equal amount. And it got there with Chinese engines [which they developed, based on Russian technology].

Conclusion: Russia has a unique opportunity to build on its world-leading aerospace technology. But that window is not going to be open forever---or even much longer, considering the head of steam that China has built up.

Posted by: Gordog | Jul 26 2021 22:25 utc | 58

@ Posted by: Abe | Jul 26 2021 17:42 utc | 11

I think the USA will be victorious against Cuba

Oh, wow! I wonder what the bragging rights to that are worth. It's like fighting an old man, you just can't brag. You've either kicked an old man's ass or got your ass kicked by one.

Now, on being Troglodytes, there's the bragging rights. America brags about their freedom to be any kind of Xtian you want, I mean their religious freedom.

Political freedom should be as sacred. It's idiocy to not have freedom of thought or belief or expression. I woke up once in Spain, opened the window shutters and across the street was Communist Party Headquarters, Socialist party.....all the parties right there. Many of the various party people were downstairs in front of the cafe of my hotel all talking, having coffee, and chain smoking like fiends. It was great. Then you go home and it's back to the people that evolved opposable thumbs just to poke in to the eyes of those who disagree with anything. Americans hate everything and everyone, including especially, their own families. Just the stupidest things to ever squat between a pair of heels.

Posted by: Jimmy Flies By | Jul 26 2021 23:03 utc | 59

pachinko @ 21

I highly recommend the works of Han Suyin, born in China in 1916 to a Chinese engineer who married Flemish woman while he was studying engineering in Belgium. While her mother became quite alienated from Chinese culture, Han Suyin grew up quite close to her father’s family in China.

Her series of autobiographies that cover her experience of China from the ground beginning with her birth in 1916 is the best view into China I have ever read. She was a native Chinese speaker who became fluent in Western languages as she pursued her education in China and in the west. She was an excellent writer.

Ultimately she had access to many Chinese leaders, experienced WW2 in China and wrote biographies of Mao and Zhou Enlai.

The wiki on her provides a list of her works. I’ve read Fairbanks and others on China, but almost none of the non-Chinese authors can provide the insights I gained from reading Han Suyin.

Posted by: pogohere | Jul 26 2021 23:05 utc | 60

The US wants to uphold the international rules-based order. Is that the same US that bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, killing three?

Posted by: Passerby | Jul 26 2021 20:28 utc | 38

And probably bombed that bus in Pakistan targeting Chinese engineers....

Posted by: Jimmy Flies By | Jul 26 2021 23:06 utc | 61

@ Posted by: Max | Jul 26 2021 19:55 utc | 31

The U$A and the Financial Empire don’t have decades! Their biggest challenges are TIME & LUCK! Let’s see if we Americans can focus on building our nation through industrial capitalism and avoiding distractions of Empire’s misadventures. This is our challenge.

You raise an important question: why doesn't the USA simply turn back the clock and reindustrialize through a series of monetary-fiscal policies?

The answer is very simple: in order to do that, a massive counter-cyclical movement of the American economy would have to take place. Industrial capital takes a very long time to be built and, more importantly, a long time to show results (and profits). The USA would have to sacrifice its consumer economy for many decades in order to reindustrialize.

Put things very simply: to reindustrialize the USA nowadays is anti-capitalist. It would hurt profitability a lot; the USG would have to have the legitimacy and the resources to absorb a lot of losses for decades in order to keep the whole process going without any risk of societal collapse.

But here's the biggest problem: there's only one registered case in History of such counter-cyclical process of industrialization at the scale of a country the size of the USA - the Soviet Union during 1928-1945.

So, from this example, you can visualize the problem. The USA is the capitalist empire, therefore it fights in the name of capitalism around the world. In order to reindustrialize itself at the cost of China without a hot world war of annihilation, it would have to develop a centralized socialist State on the Soviet model. In other words, the USA would have to become socialist. Which would defeat the purpose of reindustrialization: the USA would have to destroy Capitalism in order to save it.

That's why even Trump's policies of "reindustrialization" were very timid, mostly related to pro-cyclical movements of the American economy (deepening of corporate tax cuts; rising inequality) and largely ineffective (trade deficit with China actually rose). In last desperate attempt, he tried to outright expropriate Tik Tok and forcefully transform it into an American company (in the hands of Microsoft, which would further increase inequality through the strengthening of Big Business).

Long story short, it is impossible for the USA to reindustrialize at the cost of China in a non-violent way. The Americans would have to do with China what the UK did to Germany in 1914-1918 - but even then, the cost was too high to the British Empire, as it essentially self-destructed, to the benefit of the Americans themselves (and also, to top it off, triggered the October Revolution, that is, it completely backfired on the capitalists).

Posted by: vk | Jul 26 2021 23:09 utc | 62

I was in China teaching English in universities and to private students for much of the last fifteen years. I tried to go to a different province every year in an effort to understand China better. My subject was Oral English, and so my classes were entirely conversation. Some things I saw:
1) Chinese generally are intensely patriotic although they may disagree with certain aspects of Chinese systems.
2) Class leaders and local leaders are ELECTED. Higher level leaders are selected by committees.
3) Chinese fashion looks longingly Westward, imitating hip-hop and clothing and even playing some latest Western hits to attract people into stores.
4) China has 95% eliminated paper and coin currency.
5) Chinese somehow think Western faces are more beautiful. Nose and eye jobs are common. I tell them their features are considered beautiful in the West. They are unfazed.
6) A mask is commonly worn for issues like a big pimple, a cough, or heavy pollution.
7) People generally follow rules without a problem, except when they don't. Cheating happens.
8) China has large land masses of designated minority areas with nominal or actual autonomous government. The population in these areas is not large, however.
9) Many many of those pushing their children in after school programs are hoping their children can go study abroad, and even maybe move abroad eventually.
10) Chinese by and large don't know how high their standard of living is compared to other areas. The world ranking don't actually compare cost of living. With good public transportation, well-planned neighborhoods, cheap medical care and top notch education, I admire China.

Posted by: HelenB | Jul 26 2021 23:19 utc | 63

b writes:

.... I for one fail to see how the U.S. could win in a longer cold conflict.

It always surprises me when "inevitable" is bandied about. It reminds me of classic FAILS like "Erdogan is turning East!" and "Putin is a Zionist!" LOL.

Like it or not, the Empire is working to regain the supremacy that it lost. How they are doing that is what we talk about at moa everyday: Propaganda (sometimes with racist undertones); sowing distrust among Russia China and other SCO nations; blocking BRI; sanctions; demanding that allies toe-the-line; engaging in an arms build-up; proxy wars; etc.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 26 2021 23:19 utc | 64

The Ultra Oligarchs have a $700 trillion derivatives bet going on that there will NOT be a rise in interest rates due to industry starting to be active again.

This seems to be one of the current talking points that the hoardes who are tuned to the right arm of the MSM is repeating at the moment.
I'd like to know what evidence anybody has for this ridiculous claim.
I mean you can't even come up with evidence that the value of all derivatives in the world equals $700 trillion much less evidence that much in derivatives are dependent on keeping interest rates low.

In the entire world there might be 10 trillion in adjustable rate credit where the borrower has a possible reason to take a derivative position against rising interest rates, but what reason does anybody else have to make that bet against rising interest rates?
If the oligarchs are going to lose $700 trillion if interest rates go up who do you imagine is the counter-party that will win that $700 trillion?

Posted by: jinn | Jul 26 2021 23:24 utc | 65

@ Posted by: jinn | Jul 26 2021 23:24 utc | 65

It amounts to many times the world GDP because they represent wealth that is yet to be produced, or, alternatively, the same wealth being sold many times (leveraged). That's why derivatives are called in some countries "futures market".

Posted by: vk | Jul 26 2021 23:30 utc | 66

@ Gordog (#58), great question. One of my passion is to understand organizational development (teams, companies and nations) as I lead teams to drive creative destruction. Here are my thoughts towards your question about Russia and China. I really look forward to learning from karlof1’s thoughts.

Every entity/nation has to address challenges in the INTERNAL and EXTERNAL spheres. China’s internal situation was better than Russia, as it successfully handled the 1989 situation. Also, China’s State controlled the national currency and financial system. No revolution need there. It didn’t have TRAITORS like Russia to distort its economy for foreign control. Most Chinese are nationalist, incrementalist and seek stability. They got their act together quickly after seeing external challenges and developed a plan that has been executed well. My friend Eric Li, explains this very well in his conversations. Highly recommend watching his videos on YouTube.

Russia wasn’t as fortunate as China, as it had challenges in both the internal and external spheres. In 1990s, its economy, financial and monetary systems were completely distorted. This situation was made worse by Yeltsin gang. Vladimir Putin and his confidants were a game changer. In 2001, Putin and his team decided to first reconfigure and reconstruct Russia’s INTERNAL sphere to achieve STABILITY. In the first two terms Putin focused on this stability phase and after achieving them finally declared Russia’s independence at Munich in 2007. The Financial Empire immediately attacked Russia in 2008 (Georgia) and started challenging it in the external sphere. Putin was back in 2012, and Russian interest attacked in Ukraine (2013), followed by Crimea sanctions (2014). Putin decided to focus on both the internal and external spheres by developing its internally self-sufficiency and making a stand in Syria (2015). One can describe Russia’s 2012 to 2020 period as SECURITY phase where both internal and external security was achieved. Now (2021+) Russia seems to be moving into its SOVEREIGN phase. Russia could have developed its various sectors like China, but initially seems to have faced many constraints as well as lack of confidence, as there was no alternate successful economic model. Now seeing China’s success many Russians seems to be open to adopting China’s MIXED economy model. They seem to be pursuing a middle way.

Russia’s strengths complements that of China. Russia is good in the military and enterprise sectors, with strong software capabilities. Also, Russia is rich in resources. China is good in the infrastructure and consumer sectors with strong hardware capabilities and manufacturing capacity. Can both these Eurasian nation’s build on their strengths? If Germany joins them to focus on the high end with China at low to middle ends, along with Russian capabilities and resources, it will strengthen Eurasia. Also, Germany’s hidden champions prefer to be private instead of going public. China wants to develop hidden champions like Huawei, which is private. We do have a few good private companies in the U$A too.

This is what worries the Financial Empire most. If nations start adopting China’s mixed economic model built on sovereign money then it will reduce its PRIVATIZATION opportunities and bring a halt to its global empire dream. Now the Financial Empire is frustrated, failing and falling apart.

Russia: Stability –> Security –> Sovereignty?

Posted by: Max | Jul 26 2021 23:33 utc | 67

Gordog @58--

Thanks for your reply! Why doesn't Russia do more? The answer is simple and was discussed here several years ago--For all its modernity, Russia remains a developing nation, and Putin's goal is to get all Russians out of poverty and connected to each other, for even now they aren't. The nation with the largest NatGas deposits has many people not hooked up and heated by that gas. Basic infrastructure in its rural locales is what Russia lacks, and lifting Russians out of a very longlasting rut in that regard is one of Putin's top priorities. Perhaps better than anyone, Putin recognizes the Russia's great contradiction of being so advanced in a great many areas yet remains backward in others that deeply affect the Russian people. And that despite the great sacrifices and efforts made by Russians, their fundamental needs have long been neglected.

One of the unspoken reasons why the West has wanted Russia to fail and be conquered is its fast Asian portion represents Eurasia's last frontier which they'd like to exploit like their former colonies. This 4 minute video shows just one small aspect of the Amur Gas Processing Facility's construction but what's most noticeable is the stark remoteness of the location, which is rather representative of Siberia as a whole. This video shows 6 years of construction of the project in 6 minutes and provides an even better look at how all of it had to be built from scratch--a challenge few appreciate.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 26 2021 23:55 utc | 68

@ vk (#62),

The United States of America has everything (capabilities/talent + creative ideas/opportunities + capital) to RISE again but not the will (yet) 🤞

Remember 2001, Apple turn around with the launch of iPod! Many like you said that Apple can’t. We believed in Steve Jobs and his love Apple, and supported him. America can turn around too if it decides to. What is preventing this from happening? Majority of Americans are sleeping, lost in the propaganda and aren’t pushing the elites to do the right thing. The day Americans wake up it will be a DAWN in America 🌅

The U$A lost its capitalism that made America great. It is a captured vassal of the Global Financial Syndicate. The British Empire and the Global Financial Syndicate pursued the option of WWI and WWII to build their global Empire and corrupt the U$A. The wars started after the Fed was created in 1914. The U$A doesn’t need to pursue that destructive path as it would end humanity. What are the key differences between then and now? The U.S. is still the world’s heavyweight. But it works well only when combined with RIGHT! America needs to end the enslavement of its people, reintroduce industrial capitalism with sovereign money and create a better world 🕯

The U$A is at a FORK: Empire or a good happy nation or ?

Why is America not the greatest country in the world anymore?

Posted by: Max | Jul 27 2021 0:14 utc | 69

My personal "supply chains" are hurting.....
My sit down mower is in the shop going on 3 weeks now while the grass grows. the Shop owner says he's in bad shape due to "covid (employees are sick with it), supply chain interruptions (mower head gasket took a long time to get there), and employee vacations. Another issue-- I busted our gas line and went to the hardware store to get a 3/8" flare nut, normally very simple... the hardware store doesn't have them. When I asked the 16 year old why he said: "the factory broke down...not enough truck drivers..." My take-- China is cutting us off and the U.S. is totally unprepared. Bottom line... the wheels are falling off, head gaskets are blowing and gas lines are breaking. We're in trouble. Fortunately, we don't have that con man Trump at the helm. Oh, wait....

Posted by: migueljose | Jul 27 2021 0:15 utc | 70

pogohere @60--

Thanks very much for providing that reference! Her two-volume biography of Mao is available at The Archive as are most of her works in English and French; The Morning Deluge here and The Wind in the Tower here.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 27 2021 0:32 utc | 71

"How long then will it take until the U.S. recognizes that and steps down from its illusion of supremacy?"

I fear the US may use its nukes and spoil it for everyone if they can't have it.

That is the biggest job for China and before the world, how to get the US empire to accept defeat and join among other nations and keep them from blowing up the world.

Posted by: Babyl-on | Jul 27 2021 0:33 utc | 72

@ Posted by: Babyl-on | Jul 27 2021 0:33 utc | 72
"That is the biggest job for China and before the world, how to get the US empire to accept defeat and join among other nations and keep them from blowing up the world."

The Russians see it that way too. They even joke the US is "a Monkey With Hand Grenade".

Posted by: Mar man | Jul 27 2021 0:41 utc | 73

The crucial issue for the future, I suspect, is whether Russia will act as a military ally of China. Will Russia commit to attack if the USA attacks China? Particularly, if they attack with nuclear weapons? The answer to this is not obvious to me.

Posted by: out_there | Jul 27 2021 0:59 utc | 74

out_there @74--

Putin has said as much regarding both China and Iran, although both nations refuse to categorize their relationship as a military alliance as it goes far beyond that narrow aspect. Trump's team was told directly about Iran being under Russian aegis during a critical meeting with Russia's National Security Director Patruschev in Occupied Palestine in 2018, if I recall correctly. Both Russia and China describe their relationship as symbiotic, which is a very specific term when it comes to being supportive of each other.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 27 2021 1:13 utc | 75

Thanks to Karlof and Max for your thoughtful replies about the Putin 'system', if you will.

I understand some of your points, which are no doubt valid---but at the same time, it is obvious to me that the CPC acts with much greater dynamism and resolve.

To say nothing of the Stalin era. He didn't exactly inherit a rose garden either, but if he had been on Putin's pace, I doubt Russia would exist today.

Btw Karlof, I'm a great fan of country living and have explored some of the Russian rural areas. Many of the city folks have country dachas, and of course people live year-round in these hamlets too.

Siberia is simply majestic [and reminds a lot of Alaska]. Maybe you've heard of the Werner Herzog film Happy People?

I believe you can find it on youtube. One of the most profound pieces of filmmaking I've ever seen.

Werner follows a Siberian trapper, a likable family man who sets off every winter, by boat, then snowmobile [with his trusty dog running alongside], and finally skis, hundreds of kilometers into the forest to his trapping cabin. Here he spends the season with his canine companion, trapping sable.

He returns midway for the village Christmas festivities, riding his snowmobile on the now frozen Yenisei, his dog of course running the couple hundred kilometers right alongside. He makes his own skis, whittles ingenious little trap devices from sticks of wood, and even builds his own canoe, with the help of a local indigenous guy.

One of the most memorable films I've ever seen.

Posted by: Gordog | Jul 27 2021 1:39 utc | 76

"How long then will it take until the U.S. recognizes that and steps down from its illusion of supremacy?"

a long long long long time

As long as the US is the Imperialist and premier Capitalist Power in the world, as long as it controls the World Bank, the IMF, the capital markets, the murderous and subversive CIA and NED, it will continue with its illusions of supremacy, its hegemony (dressed up as an 'international rules based order'), and its so-called exceptionalism.

It will continue for the most part to bully all of Latin America with economic and political pressure, sanctions, demands and military threats, without exception; and it will try to bully (and mostly succeed with) the rest of the world - Trump and Pompeo were merely more blatant bullies than most of the recent political leadership....

As long as the US dollar is supreme, so too will be US arrogance and what some call imperial over-reach.

for some odd reason, the US ruling class refuses to learn either from History or from its current real world experience. Which I suspect is due in large part to the very real and very dangerous psycho- and socio-pathology of most of its ruling members.

China happens to be in a very strong position vis a vis its economic power, and could really leverage that to the benefit of the rest of the third world/Global South if it wanted.

Posted by: michaelj72 | Jul 27 2021 1:42 utc | 77


Thank you for your reply. I do hope you are correct. At the same time, I must admit I have some difficulties imagining the scenario - say, over Taiwan - where the USA is threatening China with a nuclear strike and Russia in turn threatens to strike at the USA, thereby ensuring (I assume) it will be struck itself. To put your country at risk of nuclear strike for another party, that's no small thing - and particularly given the likelihood of such a thing actually coming to pass in the near future (if the prophecies of USA decline are at all reliable).

Posted by: out_there | Jul 27 2021 1:45 utc | 78

Gordog #58 and Karlof #68

Both nations have a way to go to transit from their coal dependence especially so in China cities where gas distribution to the vast metropolis is urgent to eliminate older smog making technology. I cannot really know but I assume there is a serious move in both nations toward electrical distribution and gas fired substations on a massive scale. But that is low tech transition endeavours.

I assume the CPC observes the growing private sector dominant Russia of today as a comradely challenge and Russia vice versa. As I see it, Putin and his political party are not pro communist and they dare not sail too close to that wind for fear of strengthening the Communist Party at home at their own expense. That may well yet emerge especially as the west stumps up idiot rightist losers like Navalny.

If China attains its goal of creating a predominant electric vehicle fleet over this decade and can bring Russia with it, then they will have leapt ahead of the west in a critical consumer sector. The Chinese position in telecommunications will only rise as they outsmart and outprice western capitalist products. Ditto the vast whitegoods consumer market. When you control your currency, you can configure the market in the interests of the state and, in China's case, the interests of the mass of people simultaneously. I can only guess it is the same in Russia.

Space exploration and particularly China's recent moon rock sampling is good to see and we are likely to be presented with many surprises over the next year or so. Perhaps even surpassing the James Webb telescope due for launch late October. It is this aspect of the USA ego that is vulnerable to be challenged very soon IMO. Something like the Sputnik revelation ;) Note China and Russia are not participants in this global endeavour but they are certainly involved in related science at home.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jul 27 2021 1:47 utc | 79

But yes I know China is not perfect by a long shot.

Posted by: HelenB | Jul 27 2021 1:58 utc | 80

That's why derivatives are called in some countries "futures market".

OK lets call them futures. I hope you weren't just trying to side step the question with that incite.
You still need to explain where is the evidence that the oligarchs are party to $700 trillion in interest rate futures. And who is the counter-party that is going to win if the oligarchs lose?

Posted by: jinn | Jul 27 2021 2:03 utc | 81

re: psychohistorian | Jul 26 2021 16:34 utc | 2

I dunno if you've taken a gander at the Scott Remer atricle Buy Them Up!: Why We Must Nationalize the Banks, but if you haven't it is worth doing so.

Although Remer appears a little, shall we say MoR, it is great to see that this subject once judged 'too radical' is now being discussed outside sites such as this.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Jul 27 2021 2:05 utc | 82

@ Debsisdead | Jul 27 2021 2:05 utc | 82 with the Counter Punch Scott Remer link

I am not a subscriber so could only see the intro but agree that it is nice to see the subject discussed outside MoA.

I am curious if Scott Remer talked about the global components that also need to be "bought up" or otherwise nationalized/replaced as sovereign nation organized public utilities....SWIFT, BIS, etc.??? This is necessary or the world will play whack-a-mole the chasing private finance around the world.....

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 27 2021 2:18 utc | 83

"How long then will it take until the U.S. recognizes that and steps down from its illusion of supremacy?"

The US will use nuclear to maintain its supremacy. It has done it before and will do it again.

A lot of commenters have said that now is the time to do it. A few years later and it will be too late for the military option.

Hence all the confrontation and positioning.

Posted by: jiri | Jul 27 2021 2:20 utc | 84

Great discussions all around as usual. Thought-provoking too. It makes me wonder: in some way, couldn't we say that China is a Russian protectorate in a way similar to Japan being a US protectorate? Surely, if China didn't think Russia had its back, it would have spent a lot more on its military, which would have made its development much less spectacular. I'm not aware of any Russian military bases in China, so it's a nicer way to be protected. But surely it must require a lot of trust, like the exercise where you let yourself fall backwards and trust your partner will catch you. If one day China loses the tacit military support of Russia, the only option left to them would be to immediately surrender to the West.

Posted by: Robert Macaire | Jul 27 2021 2:28 utc | 85

Robert Macaire @85

Interesting point - which seems to presuppose that China does already have the tacit military support of Russia. And does it? Weapons purchases are on thing; engaging in military action, another. (And engaging in nuclear hostilities, yet another.)

Then again, perhaps the reason the Friendship Treaty was only renewed for five years (rather than twenty) was so that it could be rewritten into something more comprehensive and perhaps more binding - such as a full military alliance. (Alexander Mercouris, from The Duran, argued something like this in a recent video.)

Posted by: out_there | Jul 27 2021 2:41 utc | 86

To the question of whether or not there is a military alliance between China and Russia....this issue has been discussed here for years and as I recall once it was reported that some Russia general had said something to the effect that if they see anything coming over the horizon, they won't wait to see if it is targeting China or them.

I can't provide the reference but maybe other barflies can.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 27 2021 3:01 utc | 87

out_there #78

There are many ways to view Taiwan and its strategic position. Yes it is part of China and has been for some time and even recognised as such since mid last century but then idiocy and cold war mania overstepped common sense. Right now the UKUSA are sailing their obsolete fleets around the island half a world away and only just offshore from China. Expensive buffoonery. Meanwhile the UKUSA bleeds wealth and lost opportunity and is helpful in the war of words that paints these foolish nations as lost in an unproductive time warp that impoverishes their people.

Meanwhile all these floating behemoths are within easy missile range if it ever comes down to that level of idiocy. I dont see China as needing to stoop to that. Taiwan is part of China and will become part of the Chinese administration eventually and today it serves China to have it as a patriotic rally call, a living example of the paper tiger bovver boys from UKUSA, an object of ridicule, and all at very little expense.

Note China's ally has some fancy supersonic missiles in its arm
Meanwhile all these floating behemoths are within easy missile range if it ever comes down to that level of idiocy. I dont see China as needing to stoop to that. Taiwan is part of China and will become part of the Chinese administration eventually and today it serves China to have it as a patriotic rally call, a living example of the paper tiger bovver boys from UKUSA, an object of ridicule, and all at very little expense.

Note China's ally has some fancy supersonic missiles in its armory and it is likely China has also. It does not need to brag on this front as it relentlessly builds its defensive capability and progressively demolishes the capitalist illusion that holds many UKUSA people in thrall.

It is abundantly clear now that the clown cart of capitalism is fairory and it is likely China has also. It does not need to brag on this front as it relentlessly builds its de
Meanwhile all these floating behemoths are within easy missile range if it ever comes down to that level of idiocy. I dont see China as needing to stoop to that. Taiwan is part of China and will become part of the Chinese administration eventually and today it serves China to have it as a patriotic rally call, a living example of the paper tiger bovver boys from UKUSA, an object of ridicule, and all at very little expense.

Note China's ally has some fancy supersonic missiles in its armory and it is likely China has also. It does not need to brag on this front as it relentlessly builds its defensive capability and progressively demolishes the capitalist illusion that holds many UKUSA people in thrall.

It is abundantly clear now that the clown cart of capitalism is fairfensive capability and progressively demolishes the capitalist illusion that holds many UKUSA people in thrall.

Meanwhile all these floating behemoths are within easy missile range if it ever comes down to that level of idiocy. I dont see China as needing to stoop to that. Taiwan is part of China and will become part of the Chinese administration eventually and today it serves China to have it as a patriotic rally call, a living example of the paper tiger bovver boys from UKUSA, an object of ridicule, and all at very little expense.

Note China's ally has some fancy supersonic missiles in its armory and it is likely China has or will soon have also. It does not need to brag on this front as it relentlessly builds its defensive capability and progressively demolishes the capitalist illusion that holds many UKUSA people in thrall.

It is abundantly clear now that the clown cart of bankster capitalism is fair game for the mixed economy take down as the vigorous turn to propaganda wars hots up.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jul 27 2021 3:14 utc | 88

oooops apologies to all for that double down post.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jul 27 2021 3:15 utc | 89

psychohistorian @87

Thanks for that. I was thinking more of a local - "tactical" - nuclear strike, where there'd be no ICBMs involved. In this case, the Chinese could not count on being protected under a Russian umbrella.

Posted by: out_there | Jul 27 2021 3:16 utc | 90

Meanwhile, Amerikastan should probably forget about relying on India to be its tool against China. The Indian nation, always a conglomerate of separate nationalities held together with string, Sellotape, and violence, is beginning to come apart:

Both these are Modi's BJP party ruled (Assam) or BJP coalition ally (Mizoram) ruled states.

As things worsen socioeconomically, the disintegration of India is inevitable, and sane people can already see it.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jul 27 2021 3:22 utc | 91

@ Posted by: jinn | Jul 27 2021 2:03 utc | 81

I think that, at this point, it is just an accountancy device. Nobody expects such quantity of assets to be liquid. They just keep the game going and hope they aren't the last to get a chair when the music stops.


@ Posted by: Robert Macaire | Jul 27 2021 2:28 utc | 85

That's why I'm saying China should be ramping up its nuclear arsenal immediately, so that it can assure MAD against both the USA and the Russian Federation at the same time. Putin has what, one decade left? That would not be enough time, but if he manages to hold on for maybe some two decades, it may be feasible.

Evidently, some plan for an invasion of Russia must exist in case of a hot war. The Chinese Marshall probably envisages something related to partitioning Russia in half, from Mongolia in the middle, in order to cut Moscow off Asia while nuking the entire European and Caucasian part. Crazy plans, but, if the USA has a plan designed to invade Canada and Europe, China probably also have one against Russia (and Russia certainly has one against China).


@ Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jul 27 2021 1:47 utc | 79

Yes, this is a certainty. Coal used as heating is a relic from the 20th Century era. China will replace it with a gas heating system (already is, in the main cities like Beijing). Its consumption of natural gas will skyrocket in the near future.


@ Posted by: out_there | Jul 27 2021 1:45 utc | 78

But, at the same time, it also serves as some kind of escape valve that helps China, as the USA has a card it knows it can always play if it wants a conventional hot war against China on favorable conditions (in the sea; far from the American mainland; therefore relatively few American casualties). This indirectly lowers the risk of an outright escalation to a nuclear war, as the American elite will always be able to delude themselves with the possibility of a glorious triumph in traditional warfare for as long as Taiwan exists.

Meanwhile, mainland China can keep sucking Taiwan dry with its overwhelming economy.

Posted by: vk | Jul 27 2021 3:25 utc | 92

uncle tungsten @88

Thanks for your comment. It was on considerations such as you raised - that the USA would have difficulty succeeding using conventional weaponry - that I suspected the USA would therefore have a strong incentive to resort to local - "tactical" - nuclear weapons. It is precisely when the USA's weakness becomes critical that I presumed this danger would be at its greatest. Hence my wondering about the status of the Russia-China alliance and what would happen if (say) the USA attacked the Chinese mainland with a nuclear strike.

Posted by: out_there | Jul 27 2021 3:32 utc | 93

Thanks for that. I was thinking more of a local - "tactical" - nuclear strike, where there'd be no ICBMs involved. In this case, the Chinese could not count on being protected under a Russian umbrella.

Posted by: out_there | Jul 27 2021 3:16 utc | 90

I think Putin has on more than one occasion said that ANY use of nuclear weapons will lead to Russia using its strategic nuclear missiles or something similar.

So,a nuclear weapon used in any conflict with China, an ally in all nut name, would lead to Russian nuclear retaliation.

Posted by: jiri | Jul 27 2021 4:05 utc | 94

The Financial Empire is an existential threat to China, Russia and nations that want to be SOVEREIGN.

The Empire only wants vassals, no problem if they are monarchical like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Japan... or authoritarian like Brazil... It prefers democracies as they’re easy to control.

"If the Americans will commit the stupidity of deploying missiles in East Asia in a way that is threatening to both Russia and China, then our relationship [with China] will effectively cross a certain line and become a military alliance,"

China and Russia know that united they stand and divided they fall. What happens after the Empire has defeated one of them? Will it let other be sovereign? China helped Russia overcome Empire’s sanctions by providing consumer goods, and other products. Will Russia betray China? How about if Russia sinks a British ship, will the U$A or NATO do nothing?

Maybe China isn’t responding aggressively because of the 2022 Beijing Winter Olympics. It won’t be constrained after the Olympics. Similarly, maybe the Empire is constrained by the summer Olympics in Japan. An interesting period after Japan’s Olympics...

The Financial Empire may create problems for Russia during September elections. It might assassinate Putin as it creates problems for China, like it did in 1917 with the Russian Tsar. In the meantime, it maybe exploiting Putin and Russia, like it fooled Russia’s Tsar in 1910s, Stalin in 1940s and Gorbachev in 1980s. However, the world is ready for all eventualities to face the Financial Empire and bring its end. The Empire has served its purpose and a new era is coming. This global situation is perfect for a game theory.

The key milestones for China: when it surpasses U$A’s gdp (2025?); achieves absolute national sovereignty, and its gdp per capita is as high as the West (2050?). China doesn’t have to attack Taiwan. It can use economic sanctions to capture Taiwan like the U$A after it has strengthened its economy. Time is on China’s side. It just needs to continue to execute well. The Empire will try hard to thwart China.

Our world is a sea of surprises. “In God We Trust”

What purpose has the Financial Empire served, enabling it to survive this long?

Posted by: Max | Jul 27 2021 4:14 utc | 95

@ uncle tungsten
Regarding energy types in China. There have been solar devices powering hot water heaters on rooftops for quite some time. Xinjiang has wind farms. Elders ride golfcart-sized electric cars in the bike lane in the smaller cities. Mo-bikes have an electrical option. I actually saw little windmills on street lightning in Lincang, Yunnan. Other places have solar on streetlights. Trains have all been electric for a long time.
Strange, a lot of street vehicles use natural gas in some places.
Yes, coal needs to go, away from all countries. It is my understanding that it is being phased out, but I have no direct knowledge of this.

Posted by: HelenB | Jul 27 2021 4:19 utc | 96

jiri @94

Interesting opinion, though I am not sure I can agree with it. It's not obvious to me that the military leadership of Russia would be so willing to put its nuclear capability into the hands of the Chinese - which, in effect, such a policy would seem to entail, at least to some degree. Nor is it clear to me how such a policy would play out, even if it were assumed to be in existence: that is, if we assume China's mainland has been hit by a nuclear blast, what then? At what would Russia strike? The mainland of the USA? A NATO target? Or at a USA naval target, perhaps, seeking to limit the escalation possibilities - but would this limit it? For how would the USA respond to this? How this plays out is not obvious to me.

My fear is that nuclear tactics, once a cycle of strike, counterstrike and escalation starts up, might well spiral out of control. I'll admit I find this a terrifying prospect.

Posted by: out_there | Jul 27 2021 4:31 utc | 97

vk | Jul 25 2021 15:35 utc | 6

NBC News | Big business gets its wings as leaders from major U.S. companies partner with Pope Francis


The Pope means business

Capitalism met Catholicism on Tuesday, as some of the world’s biggest business leaders announced a new partnership with Pope Francis.

The alliance, known as the Council for Inclusive Capitalism with the Vatican, aims to create a more inclusive, fair and sustainable economic landscape by taking pledges toward sustainable development goals focused on areas such as climate action, peace and justice, quality education and gender equality.

“An economic system that is fair, trustworthy, and capable of addressing the most profound challenges facing humanity and our planet is urgently needed,” Pope Francis said in a statement.

The Council comprises 27 core members known as the Guardians of Inclusive Capitalism, who represent companies with over $2.1 trillion in market capitalization and 200 million workers.

Members include Bank of America CEO Brian Moynihan, Johnson & Johnson CEO Alex Gorsky, Salesforce CEO and founder Marc Benioff and Mastercard CEO Ajay Banga. The Guardians will meet annually with Pope Francis and Cardinal Peter Turkson, leader of the Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development at the Vatican, to pursue their vision and values.

“The fact that different religions need to come together on all matters is just the crying need of the times in our world,” Banga said in the Council’s video introduction. “Faith cannot be used to pull us apart. Faith is meant to bring us together.”

The Council’s founding, spearheaded by Managing Partner of Inclusive Capital Partners Lynn Forester de Rothschild, illustrates a collaborative effort of the environmental, social and governance-focused practices occurring in the economic landscape already.

Earlier this year, JPMorgan Chase announced that it would commit $30 billion to advance racial equality over the next five years while Apple and Microsoft unveiled plans to become carbon neutral and carbon negative, respectively, over the next 10 years.

Our Stewards

Leaders from companies large and small committing their organizations to take action to build inclusive economies and societies.

Posted by: pogohere | Jul 27 2021 4:50 utc | 98

@97 "My fear is that nuclear tactics, once a cycle of strike, counterstrike and escalation starts up, might well spiral out of control. I'll admit I find this a terrifying prospect."

Yes, yes they would spiral out of control rather rapidly...from the first nuclear blast to total nuclear warfare within 72 hours, max, probably more like 12.

I have family and friends in a near by city (Portland) whom I am trying to convince to make nuclear evacuation preparations. Within 1 hour of any nuclear weapon use, they need to be on the road, packed with food and firearms to my secluded house in the mountains.

Once the ICBMs get launched, escaping a major metropolitan area will be near impossible.

Posted by: J-Dogg | Jul 27 2021 4:53 utc | 99

@ out_there (#97),

If China one morning announces that it won’t accept the US$ for its products and manufacturing services. What will the Dollar Empire do? China will be happy to pay for U$A’s products and services in the US$. The U$A has a huge trade deficit with China.

“If we assume China's mainland has been hit by a nuclear blast, what then?” What will China do? Won’t it take out Empire’s satellites and attack the U$A? Russia might attack another pillar of the Financial Empire, City of London? What will the U$A do, if London is attacked? The best place to retaliate is where the real power players are located and takeout the EVIL.

Ones nuclear strikes are launched it will be Armageddon. It is good that powers are checked by MAD!

Posted by: Max | Jul 27 2021 4:56 utc | 100

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