Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 28, 2021


Thanks to Peter Lee, aka Chinahand, for pointing out that China's flagship English language media, the Global Times, recently quoted Moon of Alabama:

In an article published on the independent political blog site Moon of Alabama on May 27, the author pointed out that some Westerners' hyping of the Wuhan lab leak conspiracy is similar to the trick the US played in pushing the Iraq War in 2002 - the US claimed "Saddam Hussein will soon have nuclear weapon," which was "obvious nonsense," the author said.

"The 'lab leak' theory is similar to the WMD claim - evidence-free speculation long promoted by a neoconservative leaning administration that was extremely hostile to the 'guilty' country in question," said the author.

The lab-leak theory, therefore, "isn't just about an implausible, evidence free tale of a SARS-CoV-2 lab escape," the author noted. "It is a campaign launched to depict China as an enemy of humankind."

The Global Times quotes from our piece The 'Lab-Leak' Theory Is Not Of Equal Value - Promoting It Furthers The China Hawks are correct.

What is concerning though is that such mention in Chinese state controlled media, warranted or not, will surely entice the usual suspects, from Barfing Cat to Pro Porn OT, to again depict this lone blog as an instrument of entities they are told to defame and dislike.

For the record; Neither this blog nor its author have ever received any gratitude, donation or contribution from any state entity or derivative thereof.

The same thing can not be said of all the entities or persons which criticize it.

Posted by b on June 28, 2021 at 4:43 UTC | Permalink

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C1ue @197:

I think even anti imperialists in the US are in for a rude awakening: a multi polar world will mean an end of US supremacy. By that I mean the mindset: the subconscious and unexamined supposition that everything US is the bestest (even if you know it sucks), and that everything in the world has to be measured using US standards and understood applying US experiences.

Where was the societal concern for the opioid addicts? F* me if I know. And why should I care? Most of the world did not have an opioid epidemic. When I worked in highly specialised pain management we had a strict rule: three weeks, not a day more. The lose their function after that period. Science shows. So it is your problem: deal with it. Does the situation make you mistrust the authorities? Good! Deal whit that too! (You need an election reform. Now! Or a hundred years ago at the latest.) Does addiction make you mistrust big pharma? Good! Most firms are US, so again: deal with them!
The US healthcare system will probably go down in history as one of the most stunning examples of human stupidity ever. It's twice the cost of the Swedish system, it has about the same medical results and it doesn't even provide (almost) free healthcare to everybody. Weird, huh? But hey: it's yours so... Yes! Deal with it! And are your cities deliberately badly planned, so you all would end up car dependent in favour of the once mighty auto industry? So it is. But hey, you live there so for f* sake deal with it!

Need I say more? Don't assume your problems are problems of the world and don't assume every government agency of every country in the world is as untrustworthy as you (maybe correctly) think yours are.

Most of the jobs you mention (not UBER but that's a new -- yes US -- 'business model' (or as I would rather have it 'mode of exploitation')) pay a living wage in Sweden. They don't in the US? Talk to the union, you might have to go on strike. What, there is no union? No you're right, the where crushed by the Reagan regime. The US has been proto fascist for a long time -- it had nothing to do with the Orange Ogre. So you will have to build unions. Will that be hard? You bet, people on the front line will probably even die. But it's your country (you know, as in "this land is your land, this land is my land", which you probably think is a nice patriotic singalong, but which is actually a revolutionary fighting song sung by striking socialist workers and written by a -- you guessed it! (no you didn't) -- swede. (Joe Hills real name was Joel Emmanuel Hägglund, he was born in Gävle.) Soooooo (this one you probably did guess): deal with it!

The system in Sweden still more or less functions. It's been eroded. It's partly been destroyed. By who? The bourgeoisie. Main weapon of the bourgeoisie? Propaganda. Favourite flavour? The example of the oh so great champion of democracy, freedom and prosperity USA! USA! USA!

I spent a good part of my life fighting tooth and nail against the degradation of working class conditions brought about with the eager help of your country. So as for being a 'limousine liberal': For 20 years I was a leading member of a revolutionary Marxist anti imperialist worker based organisation. I was known internationally (in those circles) as 'the Swedish Bolshevik' because I was so principled, hard line and uncompromising. I left the organisation a decade ago, because I concluded the majority in control of the organisation broke basic principles. YOU are lecturing ME on the need to consider the conditions of the working class? In the words of a Swedish activist for whom I have the greatest respect: how dare you!?!

(Wow! Princess Greta! Wouldn't it be cool if she wore her hair just like Leia?)

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 1 2021 18:49 utc | 201

c1ue 196

Your view and my view on this is something we could disagree on forever.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 1 2021 19:17 utc | 202

james 200

Choices.... decisions... hindsight is always good but that doesn't occur until sometime after a choice or decision has been made. Sometime it is not necessary to make a decision so a question can be left unanswered for some time, other times a decision needs to be made without have clear cut wrong or right answer.

Covid19? I now look at as an inflammatory disease. The SARS-CoV-2 virus other than triggering the immune system to attack healthy uninfected tissue is relatively benign.

Vaccines? No clear data on the mRNA vacines as even though it a new technology, governments are not requiring strict recording of any adverse affects. For this I look to the Boeing 737 debacle. We are looking at a civilization in decline.

Vaccine rollout here is exceptionally low and as yet I think my childrens age group are not being given vaccines but I have asked them to to accept the current mRNA vaccines until much more is known about them.

Without vaccine, drugs that moderate or regulate the immune system may be the way to go. Having a mild bout of the virus will create immunity. A reasonable amount of evidence now that partial immunity from vaccines lessens the severity of an infection. Lesser severity indicates the immune system is better able to distinguish infected cells from healthy cells as we as acting faster the moment an infection begins.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 1 2021 20:01 utc | 203

@ Jörgen Hassler | Jul 1 2021 18:49 utc | 201.. jorgen.. thanks for your post and particular insights.. i have to correct you on who is responsible for the song credits on 'this land is your land' however... did not write this song...woodie guthrie did.. woodie would have approved and supported joe hill though for what its worth..

@ peter au... yes - first paragraph and agree with most all of the rest of your post too... i think you made a typo and are suggesting in the 2nd to last sentence 'not accept' is what you mean??

i spoke with a friend this morning...he said a few interesting things.. mrna is not dna.. rna is the original dna from a long time ago..mrna vaccines are not gene therapy or the same as gene therapy... dna is like a ladder, rna part of the ladder and mrna one rung on the ladder.. it is true they are still finding out a lot about these vaccines and as memory serves they are in stage 3 - so experimental - at this time still..

while i do agree the usa has led the world in some ways, the FAA rubber stamping boeing, or wall st. pillaging ordinary people out of their homes in the 2008 debacle with the important assistance of obama and on and on - war in iraq, syria, libya, and etc. etc. - the usa is not in any position to lead the world at this point... that is not to say that data that is collected and studied in other countries - like canada or australia, or europe as examples - can be so easily dismissed..

speaking of australia - Misleading posts touting ivermectin as Covid-19 treatment distort results of preliminary Australian study

i had heard mixed results from these studies, although i know bret weinstein was promoting their use in he and his wives first hand experience.. i do know know of any studies that have proven this yet... might still happen.. as bret and others on that 3 hour panel discussed - merck, the large pharma corp owns the rights to ivermection and was a partner in the j and j vaccine... it would seem merck has no incentive to pursue the use of ivermection for covid as the profit isn't their... thus they are resistant and interested in supporting a different way of treatment for covid... that is what it looks like.. it is all so complicated and convoluted.. cheers..

Posted by: james | Jul 1 2021 20:33 utc | 204

i don't know - last paragraph...

Posted by: james | Jul 1 2021 20:34 utc | 205


yeah, should have been not accept. They are young and healthy so are at very low risk of serious covid disease. The risk of both short term and long term effects of the current mRNA is as yet unknown.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 1 2021 20:48 utc | 206

On the ivermectin. As yet there is no data on reduction of viral load. Many doctors have used ivermectin, for a time officially in India and still no data on reduction of viral load.

This is what I look at when it comes to ivermectin.

Check the bar graphs for new cases per day and deaths per day. They have peaked then suddenly dropped as fast as they rose. In other countries, with lockdowns masks ect, there would be a more gentle tapering of from the peak. I thought India had used creative accounting to achieve that.

The peak in the graph is when the Indian government officially endorsed ivermectin. The Indian government have now done a full reverse and are recommending not to use ivermectin?

As I said, I believe covid is an inflammatory disease. Hydroxychloroquine was popular for awhile but then officially ruled out. The common link between Hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin is that they both have anti inflammatory properties. With ivermectin, Indian doctors were using it both as a preventative and a treatment.
India will probably be the place to look for more data, but the way the Indian government has flipped may make it hard to find.

On the Indian government flip - India touts itself as the worlds manufacturing center for vaccines. India is very big in manufacturing all pharmaceutical drugs, and like China is the manufacturing power of the world, India is the same with pharmaceuticals. Very much in US big pharma's pocket.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 1 2021 21:09 utc | 207

@Jörgen Hassler #201
The concern for the opiate addicts was nonexistent because:
1) they were red staters and poor
2) the people who profited from this were donating heavily to "liberal" causes

AS for your credentials: blah blah. Is Sweden a communist/socialist country? Depends on point of view. Sweden is a resource exporter not much different than Saudi Arabia - and this allows them (and the other Nordics) to sustain a very different type of society than say, Turkey.

Ultimately what matters is not what happened before but what happens now and in the future.

Sweden is the country that didn't lock down. So are lockdowns positive or negative? Were they the correct policy for part or all of the 2020-2021 COVID peak impact period?

As for the US - I have never been one to USA Uber Alles. The reality is still that the US is the 3rd largest nation by population size and has the 1st or 2nd largest economy. Regardless of "leadership" - this still denotes influence/soft power and hard power.

I look rather at things like:
a) Are Americans better off this year than last year? or vs. 10 years ago? Or vs. 30 years ago?
The answer is unequivocably no. The vast majority of Americans have seen their lives, and their children's opportunities, decline in the past 30 years.
What about Sweden and the Nordics? The decline is less but equally, the improvement is far less clear.

By this standard: both China and Russia (since Putin) have performed admirably albeit both from a low starting point. Nor is the low starting point an negative excuse - there are any number of African, Asian, Eastern European and South/Central American countries where a similar degree of improvement has not occurred.

Nor is Sweden particularly enlightened in its foreign policies: Swedish military accompaniment to US warmongering against Russia is actually quite impressive given the efforts undertaken by the Baltic countries.

But regardless - the matter at hand is still COVID and vaccinations.

You have still not addressed the concerns I put forward: that the potentially small catastrophic risks of using unproven technology-produced vaccines is a worthwhile risk for the low risk majority of a population. It is already off the table that the vaccine prevents COVID spread or death; it likely does reduce it but at the equally likely requirement that the vaccines have to be re-administered every year or less - at which point the catastrophic risk increases.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 1 2021 21:56 utc | 208

@james #204
mRNA is not DNA. However, the process by which DNA replicates is:
1) DNA is unzipped. Human DNA is parallel so the 2 parallel lines are separated.
2) An RNA strand clips one end of one of the DNA lines
3) Polymerase-ization - basically the DNA single strand has its other (where the previous 2nd strand was) filled in. This is what PCR tests are doing: copying the DNA bits
4) RNA removal - another process removes the RNA bits from the above
5) The newly reconstituted double helix DNA is zipped up and terminated by telomerase - telomeres are the DNA its hanging off the end.

So as you can see - RNA is not DNA but it does play a role in basic cell replication via DNA replication. What genetics science has been doing is hijacking these processes to replicate existing DNA strands (PCR testing), to insert new/different DNA into existing DNA (CRISPR) and to create new proteins/amino acids etc (mRNA fabrication).

The discomfort is that the process of mRNA manufacture is messy - we're talking about quantum or chemical engineering type standards where the output is "mostly" correct and "mostly" pure.

In nature, errors occur despite a well known, well controlled and well tested process.

In pharma - the old method used to be chemical: many steps of chemical engineering were used to create a "crystal" equivalent to the target immune system priming target. This was and is an extremely difficult and expensive process.

mRNA techniques make it much easier. Instead of chemically synthesizing - in theory the mRNA allows the fabrication of new bits using the same machinery as the normal cellular replication process - only without any of the safeguards and checks.

This is precisely like the 1st gen nuclear scientists lumping together not-terribly pure U238 until they got a reaction...

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 1 2021 22:08 utc | 209

mRNA is experimental medicine. This is the biggest medical experiment ever conducted. No one is collecting data. VAERS and V-Safe are not data collection systems, they are voluntarily reported anecdotes intended to raise red flags in situations where raising a few red flags is sufficient.

Why run such an experiment and not bother with data? Everyone on the planet is vitally interested. So much money is being firehosed in every direction it can’t be the cost.

We will never know how safe this all is. Each day that passes is another day of corrupted or vanished data. So stop making assertions of safety. You fucking do not know.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 1 2021 22:21 utc | 210

@ james you were asking for data on adverse effects. It turns out I had one from the UK that I missed. Try this one from the UK's Yellow Card reporting system for adverse effects:
Crimes against Humanity – UK Government release 21st report on Adverse Reactions to the Covid Vaccines

This report speaks of Dr. Tess Lawrie's work, and I should have mentioned her name in my list of good doctors up-thread. I'm not sure if this link will post so I'll stop this comment here.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 2 2021 0:03 utc | 211

So I have two things to add to my post at 211.

The first is that trying to assess the odds of harm versus benefit from the data we have may work for those seeking to gamble on a bet about the results, but it's not how medicine works. I have to repeat that vaccines are simply not brought forward with this number of adverse effects - 20 deaths is enough to stop the whole program worldwide. And we are into the many thousands above that number.

That's the metric used by medical science itself to determine if a product can be trusted on the general public. I don't understand why people revert back to their own rule of thumb to calculate the benefit when it's clear by all medical standards that the western vaccines are deeply into the red zone of danger on the scale. Why try to quantify it? Life-threatening is life-threatening. And corporate propaganda to obfuscate reality is something that we all understand very well here - or so one would think.

But I am going to try to say no more on this.

The second point is that if you have not seen studies in favor of ivermectin, then you simply haven't been paying attention to the countless links posted in these threads in the last couple of months. If you find the situation confusing, then it's your own confusion. You can choose to clarify your confusion by paying attention to the good information offered here by good people trying to help. Or you can of course choose otherwise.

One last offering to clear that confusion about ivermectin, with results from around the world:
1st International Ivermectin for Covid Summit [May 24, 2021]


And if I sound tired of trying to persuade colleagues about real data that has been presented countless times, I'm sorry to say that this is the case.

I would love to think I would give up talking about all this and simply focus on protecting my loved ones from harm - using ivermectin and avoiding the western gene therapies - but I suspect I'll catch my breath eventually and be back again in the discussion of what seems to make sense in this tortuously wicked world.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 2 2021 0:22 utc | 212

@ 207 peter.. i also have followed the link you shared for data on all the countries, since about the inception of covid.. i have seen the rates go up and down and back up and down again - kinda like a roller coaster... just when you figure it is down, it goes back up again.. hopefully this time for india - it stays down.. it is easy to speculate modis gov't is in cahoots with usa in wanting to support the expensive vaccine options and ignore ivermectin... hard to know for sure... maybe the cases might have gone down anyway? they have in other places... i just don't know and don't want to draw easy conclusions.. thanks..

209 @ c1ue... my friend kind of explained it something like that to me, but my brian doesn't think like that in order to communicate on this forum.. thanks for articulating all that.. his basic point was mrna is not gene therapy as @ 212 grieved continues to say.. he says it is different.. thanks.

@ 211 / 212 grieved... it is funny you mention tess lawrie, as it was her graphs in the 3 hour 16 minute video i watched that got me thinking about just what is the rate of the side effects which i have stated to the best of my read is less then 5% as a starting point... if you go to 01:03:24 on the 3 hour videos you'll see where they discuss Tess Lawrie's vaccine safety data.. i have watched and listened to the video and i did pay attention to what was being discussed in it.

grieved, let me ask you... do you think the vaccines have saved lives?? it sounds like you are unsure about this, or perhaps you don't think they have.. in your statement - "That's the metric used by medical science" can this change?? what happens in an emergency?? i'm challenging you because i think you're a fairly smart person and not going to lose perspective here.. no one is reverting back to their own rule of thumb here ( not sure what you are getting at with this statement).. either there was a highly contagious pandemic and well intention-ed people realized the importance of getting a vaccine to protect the vulnerable from it, or this and... it has all be usurped by money and big corporations where the good intentions of scientists has been overthrown... it is also possible it is a combo of these two and more.. this is why i find the polarized nature of 'either this or that' thinking around so much talk on covid counter productive... there are well meaning people in all walks of life and of course there are those who are quite ruthless and just looking to make money off something too..

it's unusual for me to view your comments @ 212 casting a negative light on you grieved... i always tend to view you as open minded, without an axe to grind, but it seems i've annoyed you here.. is it just me imagining this, or are making a lot of ''you'' statements, just as i am doing right now with you?? it's how i'm reading your post, even though you have left my name out of @ 212.. maybe it is best we just agree to keep an open mind and let each other explore what we have to, to find answer to our questions.. if we think we can help - do so.. if we think it isn't going anywhere, we can step back... cheers and thanks for your comments..

Posted by: james | Jul 2 2021 1:07 utc | 213

@ peter au and others..... ivermectin has been promoted since at least as far back as the fall of 2020.. i remember argentina pursuing this avenue and i know much of latin america were also exploring this option given its inexpensive nature... peru and bolivia have explored this option for quite some time... just how many have been treated with ivermectin - i have no idea, but looking at the graphs in the worldometers site, all these latin american countries have suffered greatly in terms of the death rate and the infected rates... so perhaps there are other countries data that could be sleuth-ed too for more perspective on the usefulness of ivermectin... the best way would be for a study to make this conclusive or not.. i believe this is happening right now, but not sure where they are in the process...

here is an article from dec 2nd 2020
Latin America’s embrace of an unproven COVID treatment is hindering drug trials

Posted by: james | Jul 2 2021 1:22 utc | 214

@214 james - "...a study to make this conclusive or not.. i believe this is happening right now, but not sure where they are in the process..."{

How about following some of the links posted here continuously that actually show where we are in the process?

After Mexico City introduced ivermectin plan, COVID hospitalizations and deaths disappeared [May 26, 2021]

An initiative in Mexico City to prescribe ivermectin to COVID-19 positive patients has resulted in a 52–76 percent reduction in hospitalizations.

Review of the Emerging Evidence Demonstrating the Efficacy of Ivermectin in the Prophylaxis and Treatment of COVID-19 - American Journal of Therapeutics, May/June 2021

That meta study reviewed by Dr. John Campbell:
Best ivermectin meta analysis - Dr. John Campbell [June 24, 2021]

These pieces were all linked here very recently, and discussed.


There's a link @211 I supplied that details the harm of the vaccines. There's a link @212 that details the efficacy of ivermectin. Why aren't you reading these links, instead of engaging in debate with me on the basis of no information, and then claiming the field itself lacks the information?

The Nature article is December 2020 - can't you see how the language is trying to do a hit job on ivermectin, but can't quite pull it off because it actually works, and the people and their doctors are using it to save lives?

There are countless other links that have been posted here in the six months following that article that demonstrate the value of ivermectin, and incidentally deconstructing the Nature stance. Why aren't you reading them? Why are you debating with useless information in the face of useful information? This is what I don't understand. And from reports coming literally from dozens and dozens of countries around the world, not one instance of harm from ivermectin.

And this is the crucial point - that unsafe vaccines are not necessary at this juncture. A treatment exists. A huge propaganda campaign is obfuscating the fact that a safe treatment exists. Because if a treatment exists, the vaccines can't get their Emergency Use Authorization. The vaccines should never have been released on the public - they themselves are a public health hazard.

It doesn't matter if the vaccines have saved lives - we can never know this. We can only know the price society is paying for their being used. We do know they've taken lives, in that vaccinated people have died from the virus - this is acknowledged. People on ivermectin have not died from the virus - this is demonstrated in countries around the world.


james - I have a lot of respect for you - and it's only from that respect that I'm taking precious time to respond to you - but I do not understand why you want to debate me on something that seems to rest on the principles of fair and unbiased investigation, when your own knowledge of the current investigation is six months behind the curve?

That's my frustration. I expect better of you.

And my limited time is better spent helping to spread the word of the sound data coming in from everywhere all the time now about how to beat this goddamned virus, against all the lies spread by the corporations that don't want to beat it but rather to profit from it.

And I wish you would examine your own knowledge base at this time and read some of the latest links and then decide where you stand when you're more up to date.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 2 2021 3:51 utc | 215

B is wrong on lab leak.

It absolutely was engineered.

Which doesn't mean Wuhsn necessarily.
Just probably.

But nature did not modify that genome for human transmission.

One hopes he forces himself back to an agnostic position on the matter.

Posted by: Jim C | Jul 2 2021 4:07 utc | 216

US total cases to date 34,561,403. Total deaths to date 620,645
Divide cases by deaths equals 55.68.
For every 55 people that test positive in the US, one dies.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 2 2021 5:22 utc | 217

james @204:

Sorry, mixed them up. Hill was an inspiration to Guthrie though. And it's still a misused revolutionary song. Actually number 2 on the list of the most misused revolutionary songs of all times, after the internationale.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 2 2021 5:25 utc | 218


I cannot access the full document, but a section comes up on the search page on ivermectin anti inflammatory mode of action
"The mechanism for anti-inflammatory action of ivermectin were explained as inhibition of cytokine production by lipopolysaccharide challenged macrophages, blockade of activation of NF-kappaB and the stress-activated MAP kinases JNK and p38, and inhibition of toll-like receptor 4 (TLR4) signalling,,,,."

Going to the link on the search page, just the beguinning of the research paper can be found, and it has this to say about ivermectin as an anti-viral against SARS-CoV-2

"However, in-vitro to in-vivo extrapolation studies indicate an inability to achieve the desired IC50 levels of ivermectin after oral administration of doses up to 10 times higher than the approved anti-helminthic dose."

From what I have read, it works well to prevent covid but I think it is the anti inflammatory action that lessens the severity of illness when it is used as treatment for an infection.

I am not sure if uses a different mode of action than other dedicated anti inflammatory's. The quinine type drugs do use a different mode of action to all other anti-inflammatory.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 2 2021 5:46 utc | 219


I would not have looked into it all if it hadn't been for james asking about deaths due to mRNA vaccines. I was a bit unsure of it before that simply because it was a new technology. Covid is not a much of a risk here in Oz so I think it best to wait and see. My wife is in the at risk group because of a heart condition and we are both at the low end of age related at risk group.
My children though are all in their 30's and healthy so having serious covid illness even if they were to catch it is very unlikely. Certainly far better for them to use the wait and see approach to US big pharma's rushed out new tech.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 2 2021 6:13 utc | 220

james @204:

Coming to think of it, it's no wonder I mixed them up. I feel the relationship between Hill and Guthrie was a lot like the relationship between me and c1ue now. Let's face it, I'm a great inspiration to the man.

And also: the MSM won't tell you this, but a great inspiration, almost a mentor, to Hill was -- yup! -- princess Leia.

Who the hell inspired Greta I don't know, but she is a very old incarnation, quite frankly she's way out of my league.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 2 2021 6:16 utc | 221

c1ue @207:

I'll yell some more about your colonialist mindset later, but first let's through the vaccines procedure once again.

1 With the mRNA vaccines there's a very limited scope of effect. They don't do much in the body.

2 There's also a very limited time of effect. They don't do it for a very long time.

3 We put the two together: they don't do much, and they don't do it for a long time.

4 Since it wasn't much to begin with, it's very safe to assume that when they stopped doing that, they will quite naturally do nothing.

5 So from a practical and scientific point of view the question about adverse long time effects can be answered: they won't have any.

I tried to put it as simply as possible, I tried to be crystal clear, and I have small hopes you will understand, because it's extremely rare to beat emotion with logic.

Your fear will tell you: 'he can't be a 100 percent sure'. And your fear will be right, because I can't be. I fully subscribe to radical uncertainty (the Buddhist concept, not the coffee table book economics gibberish). We can't be absolutely certain about the future. That can actually be proven by quantifying the amount and turnover time of data that would be necessary, and comparing that to what's physically possible.

So then your fear tells you to ask me to prove they won't have any long term adverse effects. And I can't do that either, because that would be providing proof of the negative, and that can't be done; just ask Frege. [ ]

So we have to turn the tables here: you claim that there is a concrete risk of adverse long time effects. Can you prove that (that would at least be theoretically possible). Can you quantify it? Then you can do the relative risk assessment to dying from COVID19 between that number and the known risk of dying from the disease (1,4/1000 [calculated per population, Swedish data]) or being seriously impaired for a long time (1/2000 [dito]).

While you are at it: could you sum up all known adverse events and suspicious deaths related to all vaccines, and divide that number by 3 000 000 000?

The last I ask of you because you keep sliding back and forth between talking about mRNA technology in general, this specific application of it, and vaccines in general. Scientifically that's a no-no.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 2 2021 9:35 utc | 222

Addition: since I asked for quantified assessment, I had to leave the risk of spreading the disease out of the equation. We could start with R, but then there are too many unknowns. The limits of risk assessment brought out in full daylight.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 2 2021 9:41 utc | 223

c1ue @207:

As to your question about what to do if the outcome of using the mRNA vaccines turns out to be truly catastrophic, the reason I don't answer it is that there are no signs of a looming catastrophe.
It's a question that can be put to any scenario in any setting, how ever remote and unlikely.

The generic form of the question would be 'what do we do if shit happens?', the generic answer 'we say oh shit!'.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 2 2021 12:00 utc | 224

...and of course the koan form of the shit question would be 'what is the sound of shit happening?'.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 2 2021 12:09 utc | 225

1 With the mRNA vaccines there's a very limited scope of effect. They don't do much in the body.
Yes the MRNA is supposed to stay in the muscle it was injected in. There it induces the muscle cells to produce the spike protein and then in connection with the lymphatic system the immune response is triggered to this foreign toxin contained in the muscle.

However, there is evidence that in some (maybe even many) cases that is not happening as planned. The mRNA and/or spike protein are getting into the bloodstream and that may cause damage in the vascular system, various organs and even the brain and bone marrow. There is even some evidence that the spike protein is passed from mother to infants by breast feeding.

Posted by: jinn | Jul 2 2021 12:10 utc | 226

This mornings news brings reports from NEJM that the vaccine is causing spontaneous abortions in first and second trimester pregnant women. More than four of five pregnancies in that group ending in spontaneous abortion.

This would have been known months ago if data were being collected rather than suppressed.

All of medicine has always treated pregnant women as a special and protected class. In this case there is nothing but a rush to get the poison in as many arms as possible.

Jinn @ 226

Pfizer’s own bio distribution study showed that the vaccine went into the bloodstream. Every time. Is the problem that you are not keeping up with the flood of information? More and more of what I read here looks like deliberate misinformation.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 2 2021 12:24 utc | 227

2020-2021 will be remembered as "when the money was too good".
After all, you need a precipitating event to accelerate the fall of any empire.

Posted by: Mina | Jul 2 2021 12:46 utc | 228

Slogging through the comments here. The level of information is very low. Yes, it is hard to keep up. Most here get some credit for making an effort and for not being wholly credulous. The level of information remains very low.

Grieved is more social and civil than I could ever be. And has a clue. As for the rest, at least half are trolls and bots. It doesn’t take more than one or two trolls to derail a discussion.

Read the literature. Trust nothing from glosses or commentary.

One small simple point. Merck does not in any sense own ivermectin. It is forty years old and in public domain. It is manufactured everywhere. It is OTC in much of the planet. Cost in India for a 12 milligram dose is roughly US$ 0.20 at full retail. Wholesale cost to governments about US$ 0.02. Any commenter building superstructure over Merck’s ownership and corporate motivation is a time wasting fool.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 2 2021 13:25 utc | 229

c1ue @207:

On the opioid epidemic you missed the point. The important question was "why should I care?". To put it an other way: why do you automatically assume that this very local experience -- from one out of about 200 countries in the world -- is of great importance when considering reporting and data collection that also include the other 199?

My suspicion is that you suffer from delusional colonialist mindset, DCM, a psychiatric disorder I just invented. (If you prefer Latin: delirium questae colonialist.)

The suspicion is unfortunately confirmed by the fact then move on to start lecturing me on Sweden. You say Sweden isn't necessarily socialist? Thank you, I have only lived here for 49 years, I didn't know. You say Sweden plays a role in the imperialist shenanigans? Great to know, I didn't read the book 'Sweden in the web of imperialism' in my late teens. You say Sweden is tied to NATO? Wow, I had no idea! Nor have I watched the processes where we went from covert cooperation with NATO, to overt cooperation with NATO and on to signing a treaty that de jure and de facto makes us a military colony, since NATO can use our territory to launch it's operations, and in return NATO i obliged to... nothing, actually. On top of that I totally missed that the latest strategic plan adopted by the parliament completely rearranges the armed forces, to regroup them around potential launch sites.

What does this have to do with vaccines? Well, you and some other barflies seem to think that all authorities lie all the time. Maybe that's true for the US, but not for most of the world; the reason data is compiled is that the agencies need it. Falsifying data would make it useless as basis for decision. (Kind of what happened to the CIA fact book, that used to be a good source back in the day.)

So DCM makes you unnecessarily anxious, and make you miss potentially valuable information.

And it's very annoying, to say the least. If you let go of your US supremacist presuppositions, you could learn a lot, about and from the world.

[I'll get back about the current mode(s) of production in Sweden, but writing that down will take some time and is OT here, so I'll make a post about it somewhere else.]

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 2 2021 14:06 utc | 230

Oldhippie, what you said about the level of information in the thread is certainly true. I don't know what your source was, but if you actually read the paper this is in the abstract:

Preliminary findings did not show obvious safety signals among pregnant persons who received mRNA Covid-19 vaccines."

Spontaneous abortions are common, especially in the first trimester. Had evidence that the vaccines are harmful to pregnant women it would have been all over the news. In April, not now, because that's when it was first published.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 2 2021 14:37 utc | 231

oldhippie wrote:

This would have been known months ago if data were being collected rather than suppressed.
It is not so much that data was suppressed as it was data was never collected. Pregnant women were excluded from the vaccine trials. But you are right there is no good reason for the lack of data.
Pfizer’s own bio distribution study showed that the vaccine went into the bloodstream.

I believe study you are talking about was done on animal models using radioactive markers during the vaccine development stage. The study did not involve mRNA or spike protein - the study was about tracking the distribution of the delivery system. It showed that most of the lipid nanoparticles that would be used to deliver the mRNA remained in the muscle but smaller amounts were found in various places like the liver and ovaries at various times.

There are no definitive studies that I know of that have determined or quantified the biodistribution of the mRNA or the spike protein in humans. Nor are there studies that determine the degree of cell toxicity from the spike protein when it does not remain at the injection site.

Posted by: jinn | Jul 2 2021 15:12 utc | 232

@ 215 grieved... peace and good will grieved.... it's easy to criticize.. i'll refrain from doing it here though.. it's okay if you don't want to answer the question i put directly to you.. i don't read everything and i know for a fact no one else here does either... thanks for your response..

@ 221 jurgen... all good.. thanks..

@ 229 old hippie... thanks for pointing out merck doesn't own ivermectin anymore.. i had heard they were the ones who had owned it - again via the 3 hour video juliania shared.. . they explained why there was no incentive to reposition the drug for use in covid - no profit in it..

Posted by: james | Jul 2 2021 15:48 utc | 233

merck was the developer of the drug ivermectin.. for the record people can't buy ivermectin in canada..

Posted by: james | Jul 2 2021 16:01 utc | 234


Would need a prescription here in Australia too. It is rarely used as a human pharmaceutical in developed nations, lot of use in the veterinary sphere, but very common for human use in third world or developing countries.
Those countries that have used it for covid are those that have the most experience of human treatment with ivermectin.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 2 2021 17:09 utc | 235

The link provided at #231 is correct and connects. I would encourage all to read it. Pay attention to the distinction between first, second, third trimester outcomes. Four out of five first and second trimester pregnancies ending in spontaneous abortions is correct. If a researcher wants to call that safe or if JH wants to consider this as common or unremarkable make your own conclusions.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 2 2021 19:32 utc | 236


If ivermectin is unavailable in Canada please tell us what livestock and domestic pets use.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 2 2021 19:33 utc | 237


Ivermectin for stock use is quite often in the pour on form. I am not sure what the chemical carrier is that allows it to soak through the skin. I tried buying ivermectin here in oz about 12-13 years ago and all I could find was a paste form for horses and the pour on for other livestock.
I tied the pour on stuff and from memory I think there was a bit of a burning sensation. Kelpies handle it ok but it sends the black and white collies troppo for awhile.
Pet worming tablets in general have different active chemicals

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 2 2021 19:49 utc | 238

@ 237 oldhippie... i didn't say it wasn't available... you need me to spell it out... okayyyyyyyyyyy.. need a prescription from a doctor to get it for personal use... it is not sold over the counter.. not sure where the farmers get it.. cheers..

Posted by: james | Jul 2 2021 19:56 utc | 239

better make sure i add this, lol... people with pets go to veterinarians who will also prescribe it, if they see fit.. i am sure i needed to tell you all this, lol..

Posted by: james | Jul 2 2021 19:59 utc | 240

JH @231

No it would not be all over the news. If you had read this blog before you began your assignment at this blog you would know something about the reliability of MSM news. The study hit my personal newsfeeds this morning. Do not anticipate ever seeing it in MSM.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 2 2021 20:01 utc | 241

@james #213
mRNA manufacture isn't gene therapy in the CRISPR sense - where new bits are literally inserted into existing DNA.
However, it isn't unrelated either.
Think of mRNA manufacture as the use of fertilizers and pesticides in growing crops. The fertilizers and pesticides aren't absolutely required to grow crops but they make it cheaper and faster to do so.
Now consider mRNA in the vaccine manufacture process like pesticide residue.
Just like pesticides on corn - there is always going to be some residue there. Is the level of residue poisonous or harmful in some other way?
Now frame the harm as being potential interference with basic cellular mechanisms.
I don't know how common mRNA is in the bloodstream, for example. mRNA, as far as I understand it, really exists only inside cells because that's pretty much the only place it is used. What happens if mRNA is floating around free?
Now to be clear: mRNA is normally not very stable. "natural" mRNA degrades in a minutes to days timeframe so isn't really an issue inside a cell.
But is the mRNA being used in vaccine manufacture the same? There are clear benefits to having "longer lived" mRNA in a mass manufacturing process, for example.
Imagine the challenge of creating mRNA and then using it in a multi-step process to create a vaccine, if each step/component degrades very quickly.
This type of real world friction/entropy is why I have little patience for people who have never actually created real world, complex things for a living. The processes never work as well as they should; they are messy and bad things do happen.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 3 2021 16:26 utc | 242

@Jörgen Hassler #222
Sorry, but I am not the one sliding back and forth.
I have never said that ALL COVID vaccines contain potential catastrophic risk nor have I said that no one should take the COVID vaccine.
To repeat:
If you are in a high risk group: i.e. over 60 and/or with serious existing health issues - vaccinate.

I would take a killed virus COVID vaccine.

What I have repeatedly stated is that mRNA COVID vaccines contain an inherent and unquantified risk.

You are the one conflating the vaccine - i.e. the mRNA manufacturing protein output - with the catastrophic risk I am concerned about, when I have been specifically pointing to the mRNA manufacture process and remainder mRNA in the vaccine solution as the risk vector.

You have clearly never worked with complex chemical engineering or other modern complex processes - they do not function so cleanly as the wiki articles make it appear.

And you have also still not responded to the core question: is there a potential catastrophic risk in the deployment of an unproven manufacturing method?

As I continue to elucidate above: there are a lot of unknowns associated with mRNA manufacturing of any vaccine much less COVID.
To gloss over these by saying COVID vaccines are safe is disingenuous at best - nor have you demonstrated any credibility to date regarding details which might address the concerns raised.

You continue to assert childish and simplistic talking points, as well as authority, rather than provide actual information or experience relevant to the matter.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 3 2021 16:35 utc | 243

@Jörgen Hassler #224
You said:

As to your question about what to do if the outcome of using the mRNA vaccines turns out to be truly catastrophic, the reason I don't answer it is that there are no signs of a looming catastrophe.

What what a completely idiotic statement.

Just a few examples of your obvious lack of historical background.

1) Thalidomide. This was a drug created by a German company and released in 1957. It was used by the public for several years before its completely unanticipated negative effects were known - it was not withdrawn until the early 1960s. It was administered to a relatively small number of people because it was a niche pregnancy drug.
How many million people have been vaccinated in the past 9 months alone?

2) A repeat: CRISPR based experimental treatments for sickle cell anemia - a 1 base pair mutation in humans. It took 4 years and a dozen dead subjects before treatment didn't kill its subjects within 2 weeks.

3) Chloramphenicol - a very cheap antibiotic which was discovered to cause serious allergic reactions (as in dying) in up to 1 in 24000 to 40000 people. It is not generally approved for human usage today in 1st world countries.

9 months is nowhere near enough time to understand if, say, mRNA vaccine double cancer risk. Or increases miscarriages. Or reduces diabetes. This is precisely unknown risk, and risk which is potentially catastrophic.

Note yet again: I have never said this catastrophic risk is high precisely because it is unquantifiable.

What I have said is that the benefits for non-high risk people to vaccinate are insufficient, in my view, to accept this unquantifiable risk.

So sorry - you have failed yet again to impress me with any form of your credibility on the subjects of risk trade-off, medical historical knowledge, understanding modern genetic technologies or complex technological product manufacture.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 3 2021 16:47 utc | 244

@Jörgen Hassler #230
Have you ever spent time in the United States?
I have spent time in Sweden. It is not communist in any way.
It is socialist to some degree except for the whole abetting the Nazis, the large numbers of fascists, and the overwhelming limousine liberal mindset which you so richly exhibit.
Nor is Sweden particularly caring of outsiders - Ikea is a prime example where the Swedish government doesn't seem to mind that this enormous enterprise pays no taxes. Most likely because Ikea is a value add on top of Swedish lumber exports.
Nor was the Swedish government particularly caring of the predatory practices used by Swedish (and other Scandinavian) banks in the newly "liberated" Baltics.
So thank you for your half-assed psychological assessment.
It only confirms the pseudo-scientific mindset which I see so commonly exhibited in the social sciences.

Nor am I a fearful person in any way. I travele to Brazil in 2020 during peak COVID period, and spent a lot of time in Florida where masking and what not was the last to adopt and the first to cease usage.

The reality is that COVID is a serious disease - more than flu - but nowhere even close to being a society upheaving pandemic.
The same cannot be said for the economic measures taken to combat it: lockdowns in particular.

Now the push is for mass vaccination.
Fine, do it with killed vaccines instead of mRNA and I'll be happy to participate.

You don't know me, you don't understand me, and your sad attempts to patronizingly do so have accomplished nothing but reinforce my view of limousine liberal idiots being exactly the wrong types to profess expertise on anything.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 3 2021 16:55 utc | 245

Jörgen Hassler | Jul 2 2021 9:35 utc | 222


Vaccines (particularly mRNA per #1):

#"5 So from a practical and scientific point of view the question about adverse long time effects can be answered: they won't have any."

That pompously made statement discredits everything else you post.

mRNA "gene therapy" isn't a "vaccine", no matter how often one repeats that it is.

It is based on an EXPERIMENTAL cellular genetic structure modification program (editing, i.e. hacking genes) technique based on lots of partial or entirely unvalidated assumptions (projections - hypothesis), wholly inadequate vetting, and NO longterm evaluation which would normally take 10yrs +. It is something that was bogusly rushed to distribution based on a false assertion that NO OTHER treatment options of any kind were available. Obviously that wasn't and isn't true. As a bio-medical method to disease treatment it has been tried before and failed to pass vetting. It has caused harm, like death, in other applications.

Rushing mass injections of voodoo concoctions, especially based on lies and suppression of viable alternatives, into the populace is maniacal and diabolical and, strangely enough, the funding behind it has roots in a military funding program. Who could imagine?

I think that you aspire to "baffle us with BS". Seems to me a tragic waste of a potential for brilliance.

Posted by: Doesitrellymatter | Jul 3 2021 17:35 utc | 246

@ c1ue | Jul 3 2021 16:26 utc | 242.. thanks for articulating all that... i appreciate it and i agree with your conclusions on it too - "the processes never work as well as they should; they are messy and bad things do happen." i agree.. real world is different then in a test lab and etc. etc..

Posted by: james | Jul 3 2021 20:19 utc | 247

A doctor in the US that develops treatment protocols for diseases claims that "long Covid" is caused by brain inflammation and can be treated with Fluvoxamin. His job for the past decades is to see/test if there are already available drugs that can help in overcoming a new disease. He says that with Ivermectin(prevent normal short term covid) and Fluvoxamin (long covid)he can treat covid very effectively. He claims 100% succes rate preventing patients from going to the ICU and prevent or treat long covid. Normally the treatment protocols he develops get implemented swiftly. But somehow this time, for the first time in decades, the institutions responsible for adopting new treatments delay and frustrate the process.

Posted by: GoverntheMente | Jul 4 2021 0:22 utc | 248

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