Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 28, 2021


Thanks to Peter Lee, aka Chinahand, for pointing out that China's flagship English language media, the Global Times, recently quoted Moon of Alabama:

In an article published on the independent political blog site Moon of Alabama on May 27, the author pointed out that some Westerners' hyping of the Wuhan lab leak conspiracy is similar to the trick the US played in pushing the Iraq War in 2002 - the US claimed "Saddam Hussein will soon have nuclear weapon," which was "obvious nonsense," the author said.

"The 'lab leak' theory is similar to the WMD claim - evidence-free speculation long promoted by a neoconservative leaning administration that was extremely hostile to the 'guilty' country in question," said the author.

The lab-leak theory, therefore, "isn't just about an implausible, evidence free tale of a SARS-CoV-2 lab escape," the author noted. "It is a campaign launched to depict China as an enemy of humankind."

The Global Times quotes from our piece The 'Lab-Leak' Theory Is Not Of Equal Value - Promoting It Furthers The China Hawks are correct.

What is concerning though is that such mention in Chinese state controlled media, warranted or not, will surely entice the usual suspects, from Barfing Cat to Pro Porn OT, to again depict this lone blog as an instrument of entities they are told to defame and dislike.

For the record; Neither this blog nor its author have ever received any gratitude, donation or contribution from any state entity or derivative thereof.

The same thing can not be said of all the entities or persons which criticize it.

Posted by b on June 28, 2021 at 4:43 UTC | Permalink

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Probably none in China either...

Posted by: Josh | Jun 29 2021 1:18 utc | 101

When you nme your diseases,
H1N1, COVID19,
The same way you name your machine guns,
M16A1, 240B,
It's a clue.

Posted by: Josh | Jun 29 2021 1:47 utc | 102

RT, Global Times, Moon Alabama, Unz, Saker, they are interconnected since they operate on similar ideas and are generally anti-US imperialism.

Posted by: Smith | Jun 29 2021 3:38 utc | 103

GT also mentioned MOA in February 2021.

Posted by: Keith McClary | Jun 29 2021 4:11 utc | 104

sixthtone may have some interest here...

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jun 29 2021 5:11 utc | 105

@ aquadraht | Jun 28 2021 20:22 utc | 76:

Thanks for your comments. You are right, netizens within China are becoming more confident of their own ideology. Baizuos (white-lefts) are dwindling in numbers while more and more 'wolf warriors' are emerging. I wonder if MOA is accessible in China. Wolf warriors will love the discussions made here.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jun 29 2021 7:54 utc | 106

c1ue @93:

At first I was very hesitant about the mRNA vaccines too, because it's was a new and mostly untested technology.
But given the large number of people they have been administered to, by now I think we can conclude that they are safe. However I agree that you should pick a vacc made with a more traditional technique if you have a choice.

Then of course there are economic and (geo)political questions around the manufacturing and distribution that need to be addressed. And the mRNA technology as a whole needs to be put under ethical scrutiny.

There are two reasons I think all adults should take the shots:

1 A high degree of vaccination slows the spread of the virus in a population.

2 Being vaccinated means you develop less serve symptoms should you catch the disease. That in turn probably means you run less of a risk of developing longCOVID.

On vaccins, spread and symptom severity:

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 29 2021 9:10 utc | 107

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jun 29 2021 5:11 utc | 105

Very interesting link...the arts alive and well in China...

Posted by: notlurking | Jun 29 2021 10:46 utc | 108

It was very clear from the artificial by the Australian member of the who team that they were satisfied the virus could not have come from the Wuhan lab."

This is an interview nine days after the article was published. He would have been under a huge amount of pressure as Australia, acting as the US bullhorn, was accusing China and the lab before and after the WHO investigation of being responsible for the pandemic.

The suggestion that this Australian member of the WHO (Dominic Dwyer) somehow ruled out the lab-leak theory is ridiculous on its face. Just watch the short interview linked by @Peter AU1

Not only does he not rule it out as a possibility, but he says that they simply don't have enough evidence yet to prove it. Furthermore, he talks about what that "team" did at the Wuhan lab, and reports that they talked to scientists and safety personnel and were "happy that this was a much less likely scenario".

When pressed as to why it is viewed as unlikely, he says "Look, generally laboratory leaks are rare...", etc.

Got that? They base their obviously weak conclusion largely on what they were told by the staff in Wuhan. Now, is anyone really sufficiently naïve enough to consider that to be anything like compelling evidence?

I understand that there are some holes in the Wuhan theory, but the findings of the WHO team should not be cited as having uncovered any meaningful evidence that might rule out the possibility.

Posted by: Paul Warfield | Jun 29 2021 13:07 utc | 109

Everyone has their own facts everyone has their own evidence. The overwhelming bulk of what sits in front of you on the page is propaganda put there by someone for a reason.

I am very impressed by clinicians (McCullough, Varon, Borody) who decide to do their jobs and treat their patients. It would be possible to learn a lot by doing that. Unfortunately that is only one small view of the elephant.

It is a minefield. It is supposed to be a minefield. Ask the epistemological question continually. When you are very sure you are probably wrong.

Posted by: one | Jun 29 2021 13:17 utc | 110

Paul Warfield @109:

I find the lab-leak theory unlikely to the point of not being worth investigating, but you are absolutely right about the WHO investigation. They where looking for the origin of a zoonotic disease, nothing else.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 29 2021 13:21 utc | 111

Not that Dwyer is not a china-basher:

"Dominic Dwyer, an Australian infectious diseases expert, said the team was given a summary but not the raw data known as “line listings,” which includes questions asked of the patients, their responses, and the analysis of the responses."

What he calls a 'line listings' is what we normally call 'journals'. Handing them over with out prior consent would be illegal in most countries.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 29 2021 13:31 utc | 112

There is strong evidence it came from a lab. As US and China's BSL labs are integrated and support each other there it has nothing to do with assigning blame. Most of Baric's GOF work was supported by the WIV and they had a very close relationship. Daszak leading the investigation into a lab leak at WIV just maybe was a conflict of interest? LOL. Daszak in a december 2019 interview on youtube bragging about how easy it is to manipulate coronaviruses? This was a lab leak for certain. Did the Chinese military play a roll? Did the Pentagon play a roll? Who knows... but is the Pentagon using it as a propaganda point? Certainly. What are they going to do though? Admit they played a part in creating this mess?

Posted by: goldhoarder | Jun 29 2021 13:59 utc | 113

It irritates me that so much MSM reportage about China is based on what State-and-Party-run "Global Times" expresses. There are hundreds of news outlets in Mainland China that are not directly supervised or owned by Party and State leadership. Often with quite interesting foreign news that deviate from the at times formalist style and contents of "Global Times" reports and opinions.

Posted by: Tollef Ås/秋涛乐/טלפ וש | Jun 29 2021 14:27 utc | 114

Paul Warfield you clown, you haven't even read what you quoted.

The original written article is what he wrote on return from China. That would not impress the powers that be.
The interview a week later, he has obviously been under pressure to allow a bit of doubt in the findings, no doubt under pressure to do more than that.

But I take it that you popped up here to ensure Wuhan lab leak prevailed. Your masters have been trying to spin the tale that the who team thinks China is holding evidence back. Run off and claim your doggy biscuit.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 29 2021 14:55 utc | 115

Jen @99:

Beeing Swedish I'm well aware of Sebastian Rushworth. He's a young doctor, still under training. I'm not saying he's necessarily wrong, but having worked at the same university hospital where he works I would caution you: chances are his balls are bigger than his brain.

From what I have learnt longCOVID patients broadly fall in to three categories:

1 People with a prior or latent psychiatric disease, that is worsened or triggered by the infection. What role the virus plays and what role the changed circumstances play is unknown. This a small contingent.

2 People with visceral damage -- to lungs, hart and some times other inner organs -- that you can actually see using ultra sound or x-ray techniques.

3 People with clear clinical signs of damage to the brain and nervous system (both ANS and PNS). Could be caused by the virus infecting the nerves, or by an overly reactive immune system. Or both.

Mixes between 2 and 3 are common, especially in those who received intensive care.

I'm a fairly pure type 3. After 14 months we can with certainty say that it's not post-viral fatigue, it's gone on far too long. It has similarities with me/cfs, but there are all so differences. I, for example, have very small problems with physical workloads -- I run three miles three times per week.

My doctor is a neurologist PHD and professor of rehabilitation at the Karolinska Institute. He says that we don't know what the prognosis is, and that there is no known treatment. After trying lots of things -- including seeing a psychic healer some one recommended -- I'm starting to believe him.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 29 2021 14:56 utc | 116

Jörgen Hassler, thank you for your posts, ending with 116. Last night I was reading an article by Yves Smith at I will perhaps link to if I can. I cannot say you are wrong in what you say, but the discussion there brought up many problems for me in saying that you are correct. I am so sorry for your long term symptoms, and I apologize for this being off topic here, but in a way it isn't as this is a universal subject fraught with consequence for our human race.

And on second thought, if you wouldn't mind, I will after rereading the article and comments, post it on Sunday's Open Thread below. Observations are made in that thread which do support hesitation at least in following your advice. See you there.

Posted by: juliania | Jun 29 2021 15:45 utc | 117

@ jorden hassler - thanks for your comments here. you are a welcome addition to moa!

Posted by: james | Jun 29 2021 16:19 utc | 118

Jörgen Hassler
"People with a prior or latent psychiatric disease.." Doctors love this one. Nearly as good as chronic fatigue syndrome.
Doctors don't have much excuse, but as you reckon your brain is fried, I guess that's excusable.

Illness causes depression. A lot of clownish doctors say ah, you have depression that's your problem. yeah.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 29 2021 16:52 utc | 119

Jörgen Hassler

This is worth a try. Contact FLCCC directly to find a practitioner who will work with you.

Some types of neurological injury can only be managed. This is a new situation and so much is just not known.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 29 2021 18:07 utc | 120

@107 Jörgen Hassler - " now I think we can conclude that [the vaccines] are safe."

The evidence doesn't agree. The vaccines have killed thousands of people that we know, that are incontrovertible, that have been reported, and that's in a general environment that is leaning towards not reporting.

As doctors and scientists point out, when a new vaccine program rolls out, 20 deaths would be enough to stop the entire program worldwide. This program continues enthusiastically with thousands of dead in its wake.

There is good scientific and statistical cause to think that the variants are being pushed into existence by the policy of vaccinating during a pandemic - something that is not typically done, precisely because of this risk.

And meanwhile in the US, the PCR test cycles are now being lowered to 28 cycles for the vaccinated, which means we will see far fewer cases detected. For the unvaccinated, the cycles have no recommended threshold. So the odds are good that transmission will in fact occur from the vaccinated who are unaware of their infection, including perhaps new variants.

Meanwhile those with natural immunity from having had the disease, and those on treatments such as ivermectin that actually kill the virus and prevent transmission, will get the blame for the continued crisis.


But we are living in a huge marketing program for vaccines, and science and the medical profession are both visibly shrunken from the most immense commercial and institutional pressure that has ever been visible.

If you take your reassurance from the self-reinforcing article at the Conversation and from the CDC, I can only wish you comfort in that reassurance, but I could not agree with their suggestions. I could cite many contrary cources, but I already have in other comments, and I'm probably already boring in this comment.

Sorry to have gone on at length already, but you made a claim about vaccine safety that I felt I had to contradict. No offense, I hope.

I wish you well with your medical condition, and I sympathize.

Posted by: Grieved | Jun 29 2021 18:16 utc | 121

is the dynamic around covid a consequence of late stage capitalism?? i think it is...thus more and more mistrust the info we are getting from the msm and for good reason.. as for the deaths from the covid vaccine, does someone have a link to that? i am not disputing it - just curious.. i know in the bret weinstein interview i linked to a few weeks ago with malone and kirsch, they had a graph on the show that seemed to show much higher anomalies with these new mrna vaccines, but i am wondering if someone can share a link in regards to this specifically.. thanks..

Posted by: james | Jun 29 2021 18:23 utc | 122

@ Jörgen Hassler | Jun 29 2021 14:56 utc | 116 with cognitive issues from Covid vaccine

I encourage you to find a QEEG neurofeedback/neuromodulation provider (BCN certification) and go get yourself a baseline QEEG assessment. The assessment should show where the cognitive issues are and what can be done to remediate them.

I have healed a Traumatic Brain Injury, PTSD and Anxiety Disorder using QEEG and other neuromodulation therapies which you can read about at my web site through my moniker. Good luck with your efforts to heal and please let me know if you have questions through my web site email link.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jun 29 2021 18:25 utc | 123

@Peter AU1 #96
I am happy to hear Australia has done well - but it was never clear to me that it would do badly.
Australia in general is extremely not dense.
On top of this, it is much less traveled to by anybody.
There is an extremely high correlation with "good" COVID outcomes as an inverse of density; it is also extremely clear that a geographically isolated country that locks its airports and ports does better.
Yet the problem is still only postponed. Mass vaccination will still have to occur - and it is still unclear to me that such vaccinations will hold up as COVID mutates in its existing large human population.
I hope so, but I increasingly see COVID as another type of seasonal flu as opposed to something easily eradicated like smallpox.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 29 2021 18:48 utc | 124

@Jörgen Hassler #107
There are clearly short term effects; from what I've seen, these short term effects are clearly far less severe than COVID in an unprotected population.
However, to say that there are not long term effects - anyone who says that is lying. We simply do not know.
Again, I do think the likelihood is low but basic risk management practices err on the side of caution. You don't take on low but potentially game ending risks if the benefit (or prevention of loss) is not very strong.
And the fact is: COVID is not a game ender - particularly if you aren't over 60 and/or have a serious health problem.
Furthermore - the games I see being played regarding vaccine passport acceptability don't fill me with confidence that the "authorities" truly are aiming for a better public health outcome as opposed to pushing their own national champion pharma companies.
But the core of my reluctance to take an mRNA vaccine is that COVID simply isn't that dangerous.
People in the 1st world are really extreme wimps.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 29 2021 18:54 utc | 125


I see it as being around permanently now. Too widespread to eradicate plus it is developing various strains. I read what looked like a solid report the other day that people in Israel that have had the two shots of Pfizer vaccine are contracting the delta variant, so Pfizer in its current form may be already obsolete. There has been good reports on several other vaccines that look like they also work on the delta strain. We have had a solid lockdown of national borders since this started, many who were out of the country when the lockdown began are still stuck. Politicians are only now starting to talk about dedicated quarantine facilities.
The few people that have been allowed in are quarantined in hotels but there are regular outbreaks originating from these 'quarantine' hotels and local and state lockdowns follow. Vaccine roll out is slow and that mostly just the Pfizer that is drip fed to Australia. I think a small amount of the Oxford vaccine is manufactured here but there is a definite occurrence of blood clotting associated with it.

As the so called west have locked out all non western vaccines there is only a very limited range and that mostly the new tech vaccines. The only way I see of any country getting back to normal is for the world to share all the vaccines, which the likes of Russia, China and Cuba I think are quite willing to do. Various vaccines may have better effect against various strains plus the old tried and true vaccines can be manufactured anywhere.

In deliberately making an enemy of China our so called politicians have destroyed our economy of China (effects might take a while to hit, but when they do, they will hit hard) and deliberately refused anything to do with either China's or Russia's vaccines for nothing more than political reasons... I think my children will go through some hard times while raising their own families.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 29 2021 19:24 utc | 126

Paul Warfield @109

The conclusion that the virus didn't leak from the Wuhan Institute of Virology is actually based upon the fact that the institute didn't have any samples of SARS-CoV-2 prior to isolating it in early 2020. If the lab doesn't have it, they cannot leak it. For otherwise unknown viruses to leak from a lab requires that lab be doing highly classified, usually military, work and thus possess materials that are not publicly documented. The investigators knew that WIV was not doing work of that nature, so all virus samples in the facility would be documented and cataloged as is normal among scientists. You don't have to go looking under workbenches or sniffing through people's lockers in public research institutes to find out what they are working on; just check their documentation.

Now, somebody else has bio labs doing highly classified secret stuff. Those labs are where you need to look to find the origins of SARS-CoV-2.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 29 2021 19:45 utc | 127

The least you deserve, Bernhard.

I have no doubt that your site is compulsory reading in many a foreign ministry.

But they will not mention you without a very good reason.

I'm only sorry that I cannot support you. But please know that this is because I have not been paid since May 1994.

ps from Craig's blog

June 29, 2021 at 12:34
MoonOfAlabama, a one man super analyst, Bernhard, on a range of developing ‘news’.

Posted by: John Cleary | Jun 29 2021 20:23 utc | 128

"For the record; Neither this blog nor its author have ever received any gratitude, donation or contribution from any state entity or derivative thereof."

Why would anyone expect any such monies to be given in their own name? Our host does not know that all gifts come from individuals paying their own money in their own name. Also, despite doubtful grounds for doing so, many people will insist on equating citation of a source with support. Thus, the Global Times is supporting MoA in their eyes. Well, maybe, but the genetic fallacy is still a fallacy.

"The same thing can not be said of all the entities or persons which criticize it."

Our host doesn't know this either, unless of course there is computer hanky panky going on so that commenters are being surreptitiously investigated. That would be appalling. But as it is, the assertion that intelligence services or diplomats find it important to infiltrate the MoA commentariat is an extraordinary claim.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Jun 30 2021 2:34 utc | 129

An official CCCP mouthpiece gives props to the bar.
Are we happy about that?
Or should we never come here again?

Posted by: Cadence Calls | Jun 30 2021 5:29 utc | 130

juliania @117:

I try not to get involved in discussions about COVID 19, hell I've even been able to ignore Norwegian for a year. It takes up a lot of my available energy, and positions are locked, it leads nowhere.
I saw the discussion on Ivermectin, there was a meta analysis published recently that looked pretty solid. I think barflies interested should go to PubMed and read the abstract, to give the discussion a firm base.

As for the effects on humanity, I think this could be an opportunity to realise the interconnectedness of all things and the vanity of our race for fame and fortune. So could the climate crisis. And the mass extinction of spices. However given the state of western culture, the opportunity will be missed, I fear.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 30 2021 6:12 utc | 131

steven t johnson @129 says: "Our host does not know that all gifts come from individuals paying their own money in their own name."

Sure, it is possible that CPC pays someone to pay someone to pay someone to pay... to pay b of MoA. It is also possible that b is from Mars and you have been trained with Mike Pompeo in the same course about lying, cheating and stealing.

If b doesn't know his money is from CPC, he obviously has no pressure nor incentive to favor China in his analysis. This should be definitive proof of his integrity and neutrality in the issue. Apparently even after such explicit disclaimer - it still does not satisfy someone like you.

How many of those who criticize b can categorically state that they didn't receive state money, directly or indirectly through some NGOs or third parties? How many can stand independent scrutiny?

The desperation of those anti-China agents, commenters and mass media is a delusion of grandiosity. More than a year after the Wuhan Lab "leak" first emerged, months after WHO and various experts investigation, plus countless statements and reports from Chinese government, these people would regurgitate the same old story without any new evidence nor fact. They still want to posit that is China's burden to prove her innocence. That is their "last straw" effort.

When respected scientists want to dismiss the Wuhan "leak", the media would ask "is it impossible there is a leak?" Of course scientists would answer it is possible - because no respected person can 100% rule out anything - just like it is possible the virus came from Mars. But the media would just runaway with that last part of the answer: so-and-so scientist says it is POSSIBLE of Wuhan leak - end of story.

They would NOT accept the answers they don't want to hear, whether it is about b or about Wuhan lab.

Posted by: d dan | Jun 30 2021 7:04 utc | 132

james @118:

Thank you for your kind words.I discovered the blog back in the Syria days, but since I spend a lot of time supine in the sofa I read it more regularly now.

I think b does a great job of sorting through the nonsense. The comments are also food for though, although I mostly disagree.

Me disagreeing is nothing unusual; in a conversation with a comrade from the struggles of the 90-ties I recently dubbed my self 'Mr Hasslers one-man-vanguard'.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 30 2021 8:39 utc | 133

Peter @119:

I don't reckon my brain is fried, however I do reckon you are the kind of person that takes pleasure from belittling the the suffering of people you know nothing about.

Your condition is a lot worse than mine. Since I'm not a fully enlightened being that's mildly comforting.

Exchange discontinued.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 30 2021 8:45 utc | 134

Griewed @121:

Being criticised for the the sources you use by some one giving no sources at all usually doesn't merit an answer.

The texts I linked to where just meant as examples of sources saying 1 that vaccination slows the spread of the virus (based on studies on population level, very strong evidence), 2 that vaccination reduces symptoms (regardless of vaccine). Well established facts, if you prefer other sources feel free to search, you will find they are abundant. Why not start at PubMed?

And I see no problem with vaccination during a pandemic. The reason it hasn't been done before is that i couldn't be done: vaccine development took to long.

The potential problem I do see is in the narrow scope of the mRNA method. That might drive mutations, since it means there will not be full spectrum immunity.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 30 2021 10:55 utc | 135

Psychohistorian @121:

I've been thoroughly tested, as a matter of fact a researcher at the Karolinska Institute is doing a case study on me. The reason is that I too suffered a traumatic brain injury a few years ago, so there already was data in my clinical records to compare with.

My cognitive problems stem from decreased brain connectivity . The short version is that every brain function is fine, the different parts just don't talk to each other. That might also be the reason I'm tired all the time: I need to use the very demanding functions of the prefrontal cortex for simple tasks that are normally automated.

The state I end up in if I'm put under pressure actually some what resembles PTSD (minus most of the anxiety), but the condition that is most like it is early stage dementia.

Structurally the problems could be caused by an injury to the thalamus, but most likely it's diffuse damage, a low level of cut axons all over the brain. That's why nothing shows up on images (I've done an MRI, blank) and why functional techniques, like qEEG or fMRI probably wouldn't add anything we don't already know.

So I concentrate my efforts on staying as active as I can, doing simple and complex cognitive tasks with out over doing them (exhaustion probably causes more damage) and staying bodily fit (training enhances levels of nerve growth factor).

In January I realised I was extremely stressed, so I focused on structuring my meditation practice (that's been with me for 15 years). Using it more actively to reduce stress really helped, now I'm more or less back to normal. I think that played the role neurofeedback also could have played.

I don't know if my training programme helps, or if I should just wait for the tissue to heal (brain tissue heals, but it takes a lot of time). Anyway, having a daily structure keeps me from going nuts.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 30 2021 12:51 utc | 136

Jörgen Hassler:

The texts I linked to where just meant as examples of sources saying 1 that vaccination slows the spread of the virus (based on studies on population level, very strong evidence), 2 that vaccination reduces symptoms (regardless of vaccine).

All that applies to people who have not had Covid19. There is no data on what happens to people who have already had covid. The lack of data is because people who already had covid were specifically excluded from the vaccine trials.
There have only been something like 400 documented cases of people getting covid a second time. If one hass already had covid one's immunity to covidis far superior than the immunity attributed to vaccines. So why would anyone who already had covid get the vaccine? They have nothing to gain and everything to lose.

Posted by: jinn | Jun 30 2021 13:45 utc | 137

Oldhippie @120:

Sorry I missed your post. (Attention is one of my problems.) I read the introductory text, made a lot of sense. I'm at a house right now where the only screen I have access to is my phone. Will read the PDF on a bigger screen when I get back home.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 30 2021 13:46 utc | 138

@ Jörgen Hassler | Jun 30 2021 12:51 utc | 136 with his response to my QEEG suggestion

The training protocols associated with QEEG do help with cross brain connectivity that they call coherence. Those inter-brain connections can be overstimulated or under stimulated and I had both which have been remediated to the extent possible....YMMV

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jun 30 2021 14:10 utc | 139

@Jörgen -

There are hints that long-Covid is related to a reactivation of an Epstein Barr viruses which most of us will once have been infected with. The virus, once defeated, can hide out in certain parts of our body. Under some circumstances it can get reactivated to then make a mess.

This seems to happen in 2/3 of long-Covid patients: Investigation of Long COVID Prevalence and Its Relationship to Epstein-Barr Virus Reactivation

Also: If you have long-Covid you should get vaccinated against Covid. That induces another immune system attack on the real virus which might still hide in certain parts of your body. There were several reports discussed in UCSF Grand Rounds that claimed that it led at least to a strong symptom relief.

Posted by: b | Jun 30 2021 14:29 utc | 140

C1ue @125:

You are right, we don't know if there are any long term effects. That's why I think you should choose a vaccine made with time tested methods if you have a choice. But since the effect of the mRNA vaccines is problematically narrow, and you will need a booster after a year, long-term side effects are unlikely. It's tailored to do it's job with as little effort as possible, for good and for bad. (For the good of the company, one might add, since the yearly booster won't be given away for free.)

The 'passport' has nothing to do with public health and everything to do with the economy. It's all about the powers that be not wanting to wait for the effect of the vaccination campaign to show up as actual numbers: falling number of infected, falling number of admissions to hospital before lifting restrictions. It's simply good for business.

I share your view of the passport as highly problematic, since it's a breach in the principle that all health care is to be voluntary. It doesn't make vaccination mandatory, but it's lurking in that direction.

I don't share your risk assessment. You seem to underestimate the risk of being sick for a long time. In Sweden, a small country, there are about 5000 registered cases of longCOVID. Those are the ones that have the diagnosis registered in their medical records. I for one don't, since it was introduced long after I fell ill. Others are still misdiagnosed as psychiatric patients (depression, anxiety, exhaustion syndrome). So the real number is higher.
And you are oversimplifying by not taking into account the risk of you spreading the disease.
Mind you, most risk assessments are based on oversimplification, and whether or not you take the shots should definitely be your choice, no one else's.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 30 2021 14:57 utc | 141

Re long covid.
Many viruses can trigger something that although the virus is quickly defeated, it can take months or even years to fully recover.

I was pretty pissed by Jörgen Hassler's earlier comment that a percentage of these are just in the mind. I did look up brain damage caused by covid and one part of it caught my attention. Demyelination. This is the breakdown of the myelin sheath that surrounds the nerve. A nerve is no different to and insulated electric wire. It simply carries electrical signals and the myelin sheath is the insulation.

The are a number of recognized autoimmune conditions where demyelination is the primary problem. The immune system attacks the myelin sheath surrounding and insulating the nerve.

Newly recognized and then named autoimmune conditions are constantly appearing. a vast number as yet will be going unrecognized by the medical industry.

at the start of this illness, I developed something called dropfoot. A muscle to my foot had stopped functioning. A neurologist did some testing, finally some needles in the nerve, basically a multimeter to check for short circuiting.
Then she came up with a name for it that covered two lines of and A$ sheet and told me it was caused by inflammation of the myelin sheath, didn't know the cause and no known treatment.

I went home, but being the dumb shitkicker, I had the bright idea that if it was inflammation causing the problem, I should take anti inflammatorys. Got stuck into the ibuprofen and a couple of days later my foot was working again.

According to the imaging of the brain of those who have covid, a number develop demyelination of the nerves in brain and this will be due to inflammation. The immune system attacking the myelin sheath.

In looking through the many symptoms that can occur with demyelination, all the symptoms associated with the sometimes very long recovery period after a virus, the bullshit doctors diagnosis of chronic fatigue syndrome ect can occur due to inflammation of the myelin sheath. The inflammation can range from severe to mild. Severe inflammation causes the nerve to stop functioning - a complete short circuit, but mild inflammation would be more likely to cause a bit of electrical leakage.
General, as in systemic, mild inflammation would certainly cause the chronic fatigue type symptoms.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 30 2021 15:37 utc | 142

Just to add to that last post and something I have written here before is that the SARS-Cov-2 virus for some reason triggers a very strong immune response, more so I think than any other virus. In all cases with the covid disease the inflamation caused by the immune system does far far more damage than the virus itself. The virus seems to trigger the immune system into attacking healthy cells as we as infected cells.

Long covid, is very likely to be an autoimmune condition triggered by the virus.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 30 2021 15:50 utc | 143

@ 'Mr Hasslers one-man-vanguard'. - i like that!

@ 142 peter au.... interesting post.. thanks...

i am going to ask again as no one seemed able to reply so far....

"as for the deaths from the covid vaccine, does someone have a link to that? i am not disputing it - just curious.. i know in the bret weinstein interview i linked to a few weeks ago with malone and kirsch, they had a graph on the show that seemed to show much higher anomalies with these new mrna vaccines, but i am wondering if someone can share a link in regards to this specifically.. thanks.."

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2021 15:53 utc | 144


I think there is very solid data on the blood clotting from Austra Zenica which is the old style vaccine, but I'm not sure about the mRNA vaccines. I they are all US big phama now even though it was the German company BioNtech that developed the Pfizer vaccine.
Being US big phama, they would have done their best to bury any data on deaths.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 30 2021 16:02 utc | 145

Just had a quick lookup on the mRNA vaccines. They look to trigger an auto immune response as well
"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) announced Wednesday, June 23, that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) will add a warning to the Pfizer and Moderna coronavirus (COVID-19) vaccines about possible link to cases of myocarditis and pericarditis in teenagers and young adults.

Myocarditis is a condition that involves inflammation of the heart muscle. Symptoms can include fever and fatigue, as well as shortness of breath and a very specific type of chest pain. Patients tend to say their chest hurts more when they lean forward. The pain tends to subside when they lean back. Pericarditis, on the other hand, is the swelling and irritation of the thin, sac-like tissue surrounding the heart."
"A recently reported death of a physician in Florida that received the COVID mRNA vaccine is likely to be caused by a destructive immune attack against platelets. Rogue mRNA produces a random, unpredictable scrambled message to the cytoplasm of platelets. The action of viral mimicry is a possible mechanism that enabled replication in the cytoplasm of platelets, which leads to the platelet’s ultimate demise. Distorted mRNA initiating a phase reactant viral-like action can initiate destructive immune action."

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 30 2021 16:20 utc | 146

I had looked up Epstein bar virus quite a few years ago and even got tested for it. After b mentioned it, I looked it up again.
Symptoms of EBV infection can include

fatigue (Occurs anytime immune system is triggered)
fever (immune system)
inflamed throat (inflamation)
swollen lymph nodes in the neck (inflamation)
enlarged spleen (inflamation)
swollen liver (inflamation)
rash (immune system)
Many people become infected with EBV in childhood. EBV infections in children usually do not cause symptoms, or the symptoms are not distinguishable from other mild, brief childhood illnesses. People who get symptoms from EBV infection, usually teenagers or adults, get better in two to four weeks. However, some people may feel fatigued for several weeks or even months.

After you get an EBV infection, the virus becomes latent (inactive) in your body. In some cases, the virus may reactivate. This does not always cause symptoms, but people with weakened immune systems are more likely to develop symptoms if EBV reactivates.

All actual symptoms are the immune reaction rather than damage caused by the virus. It can also trigger an autoimmune condition type long recovery period.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 30 2021 17:01 utc | 147

jinn @137:

You are right that reinfection is rare, but not that rare. Studies put the rate between 1 in 1000 and 1 in 100 in the fist 3 months. (I can't bother whit the links, search pubmed for covid19 reinfection.) I personally know of 3 people who tested positive twice.

Some of the early cases of reinfection might be reactivation. I think I experienced that: after about two weeks I felt OK, went to work and was sent home again at lunchtime by a coworker because I was clearly ill. After that I had the typical symptoms of an ongoing infection for four more weeks.

If you recently had COVID19 you are immune, and the protection is at par with vaccination. Problem is immunity from coronaviruses, like from most other viruses, vain. So the question isn't 'if' you should get the shot, but 'when'.

Globally this is a minor issue as only 2,5% percent of the worlds population has had the disease.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 30 2021 17:15 utc | 148

Psychohistorian @139:

Interesting. Neurofeedback isn't an approved medical treatment in Sweden, but I have a friend that is a psychiatrists, and who has been using it as part of a protocol for treating PTSD. So she has the gear. I'll pass the info on to her and see what she says.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 30 2021 17:32 utc | 149

You are right that reinfection is rare, but not that rare. Studies put the rate between 1 in 1000 and 1 in 100 in the fist 3 months.

Testing positive again in the first 90 days is not considered evidence of a reinfection. Testing positive in that period is more likely just still shedding inactive virus particles. But even if your 1 in 100 claim was correct (doubtful you have any evidence for that) That still is better immunity than any of the vaccine makers claim for their product.
There is certainly a lot better evidence that having the disease confers better immunity than the vaccine. That is especially true of people who have had covid already and get the vaccine. There is zero data on what sort of immunity that cohort gets from the vaccine since they were excluded from the vaccine trials.

Posted by: jinn | Jun 30 2021 18:33 utc | 150

B @140:

Interesting to hear about Epstein-Barr. I heard about a similar theory that reactivated herpes viruses might play a role about a year ago, but I can't find the article now.

I can offer some anecdotal 'evidence' on the subject. One morning in October I woke up with a bad pain in my left cheek. During the day it spread to an area around the mouth. The pain worsened, and early afternoon I had to go to the ER. I was referred to ear-nose-and-throath, but they sent me on to neurology.

The neurologist deemed it as being a case of trigeminal neuropathic pain, prescribed some pills (gabapentin) that made the pain endurable.

Two weeks later the pain was gone and I had developed a cold sore by the mouth. Herpes simplex, the virus that causes cold sores, lies dormant in the nerval node of the trigeminal nerve, and follows one branch down to cause the sore. Thing is this time it didn't just infect the skin, it infected the whole nerve.

On longCOVID and vaccination I've heard (from patient reports, I haven't seen any studies) it's a mixed picture: most see no change, some get better, some (fewer) get worse. I think that longCOVID is actually more than one condition, so I find that logical.

Since longCOVID could be caused by an overreaction of the immune system, we are excluded from the vaccination programme, so I can't get the shot any way.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 30 2021 18:34 utc | 151

@Peter AU1 #126
I have always believed COVID would be a permanent feature going forward. Once any virus jumps continents - it is impossible to eradicate unless it is super simplistic and stable like smallpox - which COVID is not.
As for the "war" with China: I am much less concerned about reality vs. the oligarchy's yakety.
Russian sanctions resulted in French Belarusian cheeses, Turkish Bordeaux wines etc.
China sanctions equal Vietnamese, Malaysian, Indonesian, Indian etc Chinese made goods. The reality is that China has the scale and, increasingly, the manufacturing automation and quality, which make them irreplaceable.
The problems your children may experience will be entirely due to the AU political establishment hurting themselves by becoming ever more subservient to US interests at the expense of their own.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 30 2021 18:44 utc | 152

Casey Stoner two-time Moto GP world champion.

Stoner had his bike racing career cut short and was diagnosed with Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome, the trash basket of the medical industry.

I see Myalgic encephalomyelitis has been added to the label on the trash bin.
Encephalomyelitis is inflammation of the brain and spinal cord.

And some clowns think this sort of thing is a psychiatric disorder....

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 30 2021 18:45 utc | 153

jinn @150:

I'm very very this so this be short.

1 Yes it is. That's the period most studied. You might think it shouldn't bee, and you might have a point. But it is. And most studies are done on readmission to hospital, so it's unlikely that it's nothing but shedding.

2 I 'have' no evidence. I pointed you to PubMed. It's simple search. Go see for your self.

3 No it's not, because you have to add up the risk of getting reinfected with the risk of catching the virus in the first place. But they are on par.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 30 2021 18:45 utc | 154

I am very tired

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 30 2021 18:47 utc | 155

@Jörgen Hassler #141
That the mRNA vaccines may not confer immunity beyond a year has nothing to do with the mRNA technology so much as it has to do with COVID itself.
Furthermore, to say that mRNA technology has a narrow range of risks is to betray a fundamental lack of knowledge on how it works and how the whole genetic modification field functions.

Yes, Earth genetics largely has only 4 unique bases - but this doesn't mean genetic modification is easy. In particular, the human genome is about 3 billion bases of which the function of the vast, vast majority are unknown.

Secondly, mRNA tech - or any genetic tech such as CRISPR - has the problem that the above 4 unique bases mean that the shorter the targeted sequence, the more likely it is that said sequence exists in multiple places and potentially multiple functions.

The COVID spike that most vaccines target is a bit over 20K base pairs - and the vaccines target some subsection of that. Let's say 1000 base pairs are targeted for argument's sake (I don't know the precise number but it could be much smaller). How much times does 1000 fit into 3 billion? This is 3 million. Now take 3 billion and add the complexity of differences between human beings.

The good news is that even a mistake is unlikely to cause a problem simply because the human genome is highly redundant and full of what we think today is junk code.

The bad news is that even a single codon change in an extremely well understood genetic disease - Sickle Cell anemia - took 4 years to get to the point where human test subjects weren't all dying.

From this - I view genetic modification as more alchemy than science.

Then there's the nuts and bolts: mRNA creation techniques do not remove all of the mRNA development tools from the final solution. How much - nobody wants to say but it is probably not possible to easily separate the mRNA working bits from the vaccine output bits.

This is why the inventor of mRNA is concerned. mRNA bits play a role in cellular replication and other operations; historically any form of monkeying with germ seed DNA or intracellular functionality is considered taboo by responsible scientists because it is so damn dangerous. Would those bits screw up something important in people? How would it screw it up, if it did? When would we know? How widespread would an effect be?

The reality is that the genetic scientists today are operating in 1940s era comparable tech and understanding of what they're manipulating - i.e. they have some basic principles right but are far, far away from truly understanding the tech and how to implement it.

SCRAM - the term describing the rapid shutdown of a nuclear reactor - is an acronym for Safety Control Rod Axe Man: the early test reactors had a literal guy with an axe to ensure control rods were inserted into the critical mass.

Who or what is the SCRAM should mRNA prove to be problematic?

Maybe you're ok with that - I am personally not particularly inspired to confidence.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 30 2021 19:02 utc | 156

As for risk: 5000 long COVID cases out of over 1M reported infections in Sweden. That's a 1 in 200+ chance of getting long COVID even if you lost the 1 in 7 chance of getting COVID dice roll, then lost the 1 in 50 chance of being a serious case of COVID after that. Again: the vast, vast majority of those who died were over age 60 and/or with serious health problems.

To put this in perspective:
What is the chance of dying from a gunshot in the US? 1 in 289
Chance of dying in a car accident in the US? 1 in 107
Chance of dying from cancer? 1 in 7

Sorry, but this is exactly what I mean by 1st world Western people being such pansies: risk averse to the point of insanity.

The odds of getting Long COVID or dying from COVID - for people not in the high risk groups - is likely comparable to the odds of dying from radiation or being stabbed to death - i.e. 1 in 20000 or more.

Odds data source

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 30 2021 19:15 utc | 157

@ 145 / 146 - peter au.. thanks peter! yes - it is along those lines that i am looking for data on... how many deaths, or various related sickness as a result of people taking the mrna vaccines?? 1% - 5%? does anyone have this kind of data?? i would be very curious... according the video i was mentioning where they did show a graph, in the past vaccines had very safe rates of less then 1% of side effects or worse - deaths.. with the mrna vaccines it seems because they were rushed into use, the same types of clinical trails and etc, were not done.. maybe standard procedures were not followed with covid?? that is the impression i am getting, but i would like to have an actual percentage to be able to appreciate it better...

for the record.. you are the only one peter who has tried to reply to me.. i appreciate it..

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2021 19:18 utc | 158

Last note: relative risk.
Someone who is over 60 in the US has a life expectancy of a bit under 24 years. But more importantly - they're not working, they're not reproducing, they're largely not primary breadwinners for their households.
The risk for these people from COVID is extremely high - the downside from a serious side effect is minimal.
Vaccination for the entire population including children?
I personally am not the least bit comfortable with that - why not wait and see?
It isn't like COVID hasn't already done its damage in the 1st world and the infections/deaths are way down as a result.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 30 2021 19:20 utc | 159

@ 157 c1ue... that is the sort of info applicable to my question... do you know the fatality rate for people taking the mrna vaccines?? or a rate associated with negative side effects from taking these vaccines? thanks..

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2021 19:21 utc | 160

@ 159 c1ue... i agree with you.. vaccinating young people for covid seems insane to me..

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2021 19:22 utc | 161

c1ue For the majority of people, covid is a minor disease, even with long covid an in many ways especially in other situations, I,m in agreement people are pansies and want to be protected from everything.
The problem with covid though is it cuts through old people like a hot knife through butter. 600,000 in the US in a year. China when it first broke out and not much was known about treatment and how infectious it was, a good number of medical staff treating died, some in the late 30s and 40s. China very quickly, even though taken by surprise, brought a large outbreak under control and since then the country has been functioning normally with its economy going ahead, people traveling about freely and nobody dying or becoming very ill. China immediately started designing vaccines along with setting up infrastructure for greatly increased vaccine production. The extra production capacity came on line not long back and China is looking at heard immunity by october.
Why couldn't other countries have done this?

That is how to treat a pandemic. Ignoring it other than setting up extra crematoriums doesn't seem the right way to go.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 30 2021 19:29 utc | 162

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 30 2021 19:20 utc | 159

I understood the point about vaccinating the people less at risk, i.e. the young, was about protecting the community as a whole. Less infection of the young at school for example, means less transmission to their elders who they will go back home to see.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jun 30 2021 19:33 utc | 163

Or about eliminating COVID from the population.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jun 30 2021 19:38 utc | 164

james 158

I might see what I can find on it at some point. You have got me a bit interesting in finding something solid. My thoughts have been that mRNA is an unproven new technology that should have been tested over a number of years. It is quite obvious very good vaccines for covid can quickly be made using the tried and proven tech. Russia has no problem licencing out their vaccine tech and China is open to sharing as its in everyone's interest (apart from the usual suspects) to bring this virus under control.

I haven't got much interest in getting vaccinated with the crap that's available in Australia. I would like to get my wife vaccinated though as she has heart issues. The Russian one would be best and failing that the Chinese vaccine.
I read many Tai's where heading over to the mainland and Russia has got a lot of vaccine tourists heading there all the time. Might have to look at getting her a flight to Russia sometime, though the way things are going here with border lockdowns, that's probably out too.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 30 2021 19:47 utc | 165
The deaths of 16 elderly people in Switzerland after being inoculated with Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines underscore the potential danger of mRNA vaccines to the age group, Chinese vaccine experts said, further calling for caution.

At least 16 people died after receiving vaccines in Switzerland, the Swiss Agency for Therapeutic Products (Swissmedic) was quoted as saying by Sputnik in a report on Saturday.

The agency said it had obtained about 364 suspected adverse drug reactions, with 199 incidents linked to the vaccines developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, and 154 to Moderna's drug, said the report.

As I thought, US big pharma - data on deaths buried or fudged. This is latest report on side effects reported by the Swiss entity named in the global times report.
In 97 serious cases, the people concerned died at differing intervals after receiving the vaccine. Their average age was 81.1 and the majority of them had serious pre-existing conditions. These reports were analysed with particular care and, in a very few cases, the final results from autopsies are still pending. As far as is known at present, death was caused by conditions such as infections, cardiovascular events or diseases of the lungs and airways that occurred independently of the vaccinations, even though there was a chronological correlation. At present there are no indications globally that the two mRNA vaccines are associated with an increased fatality rate.

An interesting report here from US CDC. An oldies home where they were all vaccinated including the staff had an outbreak of covid. It seems that for the oldies in the US, if the vaccine doesn't get you the virus will. Ihaven't tried getting a full report on mRNA side effects in the US as numbers, or percentage, whatever a US report states will be the same.
COVID-19 Outbreak Associated with a SARS-CoV-2 R.1 Lineage Variant in a Skilled Nursing Facility After Vaccination Program — Kentucky, March 2021


Our shithead politicians are fully aboard the anglo dominance crap, but at least with covid they have been far better than the US or UK... and the Swiss.
"The AstraZeneca vaccine will now only be recommended for use in people aged 60 and over, after the federal government accepted new advice from the country's vaccine experts."

(I guess they reckon that although the mRNA is more risky than covid for the oldies, the risk benefit of blood clotting vs covid for the Asra Zenica is acceptable. Still a pack of pricks though when we could just as easily have Sputnik)
“We accept the advice and accept that Pfizer is the preferred vaccine for under 60s. AstraZeneca is recommended for over 60s,” he told reporters in Canberra."


After looking at mRNA vaccines and how they work, and the fact that the mRNA stays in the body for a long time if not forever, there is going to be a lot of future blowback, like with DDT. A lot of new autoimmune diseases/conditions will be appearing from now on.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 30 2021 21:23 utc | 166

@ peter..

thanks... if i find something i will also share it.. here is the video from about 3 weeks ago that triggered my curiousity...
How to save the world, in three easy steps it is helpful that you can see the contents for the video (as it is a 3 hour 16 minute video) under the data on the video... listen or watch from about 54 minutes to 1 hour 10 minutes.. i am listening right now again and trying to find the graph that they showed that stuck out in my mind...

i think what is frustrating for a lot of people is the restrictions being placed on them with the thread of having to have vaccination passports and such an additional frustration for those who are used to traveling and interacting freely... watch the video in the section i mention and see... i haven't seen it yet at 1 hour 3 minutes in.. hopefully the link works...

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2021 21:24 utc | 167

@ 166 peter... will take a look. thanks! top link is from feb 2021.. i agree with your last statement..

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2021 21:26 utc | 168

James, that global time report was from the very first Swiss report on side effects. The latest report that I have linked and quoted is the cumulative total up until 15/6/21. "Reporting period 01.01.2021 - 15.06.2021"

Total vaccine deaths in Switzerland up till that date is 97. I don't know how many inoculations that is in ratio to, but the ratios will be the same where ever the mRNA vaccinations are used on the aged.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 30 2021 21:52 utc | 169

@ peter.. a number of questions remaining outstanding and unanswered.. it seems there was a rush to push these new vaccines, while maintaining the new world order of keeping alternative choices closed in the west...this makes it look like a big money grab to me.. i realize i am cynical saying this, but it is how it appears.. it bothers me to think of our prime minister hobnobbing with the head of blackrock while blackrock holds a huge number of shares in pfizer... stuff like this bothers me and makes it harder to respect the choices that are being made here, or question the ulterior motives at play.. and that is just the tip of an iceberg... the question of repercussions from using these untried and really - not fully studied - new vaccines raise a huge question mark in the race to get the first one out and sold to the public.. i think you are right in your quote -

"After looking at mRNA vaccines and how they work, and the fact that the mRNA stays in the body for a long time if not forever, there is going to be a lot of future blowback, like with DDT. A lot of new autoimmune diseases/conditions will be appearing from now on." i have to agree or the real possibility with this..

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2021 23:29 utc | 170

James @ 158 and elsewhere, and others:

The Israeli People’s Committee Report of Adverse Events Related to the Corona Vaccine, April 2021

The Israeli People’s Committee, an independent investigative group that comprises medical, legal, and epidemiological expertise, has released a summary report on the experience of mass experimental vaccinations in Israel, which uses the Pfizer mRNA vaccine.

The data collected by the group paint a grim picture:

- The overall mortality in the January-February vaccination period was higher in 2021 than in any other year within the preceding decade. In the age group of 20–29 years, mortality in this time period exceeded that of the previous year by 32%.
288 deaths overall, mostly within the first 10 days after vaccination, were reported to the group. This number is more than six times greater than the 45 deaths officially admitted to by the Health ministry.

- The group gives the following estimates for the mortality among the vaccinated: overall, 1:5,000; age 20–49 years, 1:13,000; age 50–69 years, 1:6,000; age 70+, 1:1,600.

- Across lethal and non-lethal adverse events there was a relatively high rate of cardiac-related injuries, 26% of which occurred in young people below the age of 40, a high prevalence of massive vaginal bleeding, neurological, skeletal and skin damage, and events directly or indirectly related to coagulopathy (myocardial infarction, stroke, miscarriages, disruption of blood flow to the limbs and pulmonary embolism).

According to the authors, the compilation of the report was severely hampered by obstruction on the part of government authorities, involving in particular the shutting down of all monitoring and tracking systems for adverse events.

The group notes that while “Israel serves as a global model for nationwide vaccination” and “Pfizer has chosen us to be the experimental country”, the “silencing mechanisms of the health system regarding the vaccine’s adverse events … have created a situation whereby the Israeli [and international] public is almost completely unaware of the existence, nature and prevalence of [those] adverse events.”

The report concludes as follows:

“These figures also highlight the inconceivable gap between official Israeli media reports and what is actually happening, enabling a ‘two worlds’ situation due to journalistic failure to sense, identify and report on what is [taking place] in citizens’ real-life.” ...

As far as I know, Israel started using the Pfizer/BioNTech treatment late last year when Netanyahu pulled strings to get Israel to the front of the queue for COVID-19 "vaccine" treatments.

There is much more information at the website that I have linked to.

Posted by: Jen | Jun 30 2021 23:42 utc | 171

@170 james

The numbers for deaths from vaccines are coming, in the US, from the VAERS system, which reports adverse effects following vaccination. There are some 6,000 deaths reported, but causality is not determined or recorded in the VAERS - to do that you have to analyze the data.

Here's the latest analysis I can find, at Trial Site News:
Are the Covid-19 vaccines “safe and effective”? - Steve Kirsch presentation [June 16, 2021]
Steve is the brash guy in the 3-way video you linked and are searching through for the VAERS data. I haven't watched the presentation, but this time Steve has nobody to interrupt.

The CDC says there's no causality between the deaths and other adverse effects reported in the VAERS and the COVID-19 vaccines in the US. Steve Kirsch, again, disputes this, in a short article this time:
Think the vaccines are safe? [June 23, 2021]

Kirsch cites the seminal analysis by Dr. Jessica Rose:
VAERS - as of April 30th, 2021 - this is the best (and only) comprehensive analysis of the data

Doctors such as Kory and McCullough, and the scientist Bret Weinstein, are clear that CDC simply cannot say there's no causality because it can't show any analysis that demonstrates this - therefore CDC hasn't analyzed the data, it simply is proclaiming a doctrine. These doctors and others such as Dr. Campbell, Dr Mobeen, Dr. Wodarg, and many others are noting the coincidences of adverse reactions coming out of the blue in healthy people within very short time spans.

Obviously the deaths and other serious effects are crying out for analysis, and CDC has shown none, Those who have, are worried. As McCullough says, 20 deaths would normally shut down an experimental vaccine, and this is in the thousands worldwide.


I actually find myself swamped with presentations and data, and unfortunately much of it is in long video interviews. As you know, trying to find one slide or chart in hours of video with no transcript is maddening.

But the data keeps on coming, and if people are plugged into just a few of the many sources (such as FLCCC, Dark Horse Podcast, Trial Site News, Drbeen Medical Lectures, @Covid19Crusher on Twitter - and the good links here) moving forward, the picture is very clear.

We are living in a massive marketing campaign in the west, in which practically the whole of our institutions that should be impartial and not for profit, are corrupted by regulatory capture.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 1 2021 0:08 utc | 172

Jen 171

Like with the report I linked to on a covid outbreak at a nursing home were all people were inoculated, some only the once but most twice with pfizer, the same thing happened in Israel. I linked a report on the Israel outbreak back in one of these threads. Israel is mostly fully vaccinated, some only the once, but many fully vaccinated with the two shots, but the delta strain is taking off there.

The Zionist thought they were smart getting all the Israelis vaccinated and not the Palestinians. I think it will be the palistinians that will get the last laugh on this one.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 1 2021 0:16 utc | 173

james 170

No different to Boeing and the FAA. Big pharma and the CDC will be in bed together.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 1 2021 0:18 utc | 174

By the way, james and others...

The Video interview "How To save the World.." frequently cited here is over 3 hours long, and Steve Kirsch is a pain to listen to for his excitability.

But one noble soul has made a 1-hour, condensed version of the 3-way discussion between Brett Weinstein, Dr. Robert Malone (the inventor of mRNA Vaccine technology) and Steve Kirsch, and it's on BitChute:
"How to Save The World (ONE HOUR VERSION) - DarkHorse Podcast"

[NOTE: Typepad held this comment for moderation because of the link. Sorry, you will have to search for it]

This one, I will watch.

It's hard to express how grateful I am for this editing job - I really wanted to watch this, but I couldn't sit through the interruptions (for which Steve Hirsch has since publicly apologized).

I hope others will find this watchable, because there's no doubt that what all three of these people have to say is crucial to understanding the medical crisis we're in, and the way out of it.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 1 2021 0:25 utc | 175

Grieved 172

Their fig leaf is that it can't be clinically proven that the vaccine killed these people but that is all it is. I suspect if there were genuine investigations a genuine clinical link and the mechanism would be found. Might take some time but it would be found.
That is big number you have put up, but going off the deaths in Sweden, I suspected it would be a large number for the US.

Jen's information from Israel told a story too as the numbers we are looking at from Switzerland and US are only the numbers that died very soon after being vaccinated.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 1 2021 0:29 utc | 176

what if bitchute were called something else, say, google.

Then the link to the video would be something like this:


And if you replaced the "google" with the actual word and put the two lines together, it should work.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 1 2021 0:29 utc | 177

Grieved, a tried a couple of things to get the link through pasting to notepad, then copy and past to comment, then tried spaces in the link but the censor grabbed both.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 1 2021 0:52 utc | 178

@ jen, grieved and peter... thank you..

i don't doubt that there are people who have died from the vaccine, or are suffering repercussions from the vaccine and as peter suggests, we may see much more as we move forward in the next year..

@ jen.. your link doesn't open.. this appears to be - the same link.. the numbers would seem to be small in terms of percentages.. obviously any death from a vaccine is giving the opposite of what it is supposed to do - safe lives, as opposed to kill lives.. the main thrust seems to be on the silencing of this information - a type of censorship, which becomes a bigger problem and one as followers of moa, we've seen in countless examples on the political front... how it is showing up in the news is much like an address of putins... persona non grata...

@ grieved.. i don't follow the CDC, an american institution that started july 1st 1946.. that will be 75 years tomorrow.. if you think about how other american institutions have become corrupted, it stands to reason this is one more that is under the control of finance, unfortunately.. like the question of the real info on a supposed chemical weapon attack in syria, what are the chances that the real info on deaths related to vaccines will come out? i wouldn't hold my breathe waiting.. regarding the 3 hour and 16 minute video... i watched it when it came out due julianias encouragement... i broke it up into 1/2 hour segments.. i thought it was quite good, and although you're right about the kirtch guy, i cut him more slack then you as he is passionate and sincere in the importance of this and expresses himself differently then robert malone who is a lot more easy on the nerves! i am going to try to link what you tried to link in my next post.. if you don't see a post immediately, you'll know it got caught in the cue as well! the shortened 1 hour version on bit chute.. thanks..

@ peter.. yeah.. boeing - faa approval... another example of a cover up or paying to get the info set for approval and etc..

here's my thing.. i am going to go out on a limb here saying this.. it is going to be impossible to know how many people have been saved from the vaccine, just like it is going to be impossible to know how many have suffered side effects, or worse - died from the vaccine... the weight is on the vaccine corps keeping the info silent on the one side and supportive of the great value they have served... but the west has shown no benevolence or generousity either sharing freely to poorer countries, or allowing alternative vaccines from the sanctioned countries that show how mean spirited and petty the west has become under the tyranny of money.. we need to build a better world.. i am conflicted on all of these ideas and while i don't know the answers - i am okay not having the answers - it would be nice if we could get beyond the greed and insane race for more money that seems to characterize our world in 2021.. watching the housing bubble is just one more insane aspect of this.. i think people need something positive to life for.. this mayhem and funk with covid has been draining on most.. i can only process so much of it before i need to check out... thanks for your support in my trying to find stats on all this.. based on what jen and peter have shared the numbers of those dying and suffering side effects must be less then 5 %.. i know this is ridiculously bad for a vaccine that is supposed to do the opposite, but what it the 95% have benefited from it?? i know it is premature to say, so pardon my open ended question that won't have an answer any time soon.. cheers...

Posted by: james | Jul 1 2021 1:25 utc | 179


grieveds link broken in the middle..

Posted by: james | Jul 1 2021 1:26 utc | 180

james 179

Some thoughts on your going out on a limb section.

Patrick Armstrong "everything I have been told is a lie" I also came to that conclusion some time ago, and like the song says "I can see clearly now"

Benefit vs risk with vaccine. Here in Australia, vaccines have always been good. Polio had been eradicated about the time or just after I was born. Going to school was one kid in particular that I remember and I think there was a few more, but he got around with a crutch with a step on it for his short leg. The short leg was about half the length of the good one.
I have read about the various infections diseases the have been eradicated or largely eradicated due to vaccines. Coming on these sort of blogs and the amount of Americans that distrusted vaccines, I at first thought they were nutters, the sort that believed in all sorts of bullshit, but then started to realize that things were different in the US and they may well have reason to distrust vaccines.
Somebody told me once, about 40 years ago, that we are twenty years behind the US. That person was correct, and I have noted through my lifetime that here in Oz, we follow in the US footsteps but 20 years behind.

Now with astra zenica and the mRNA vaccines, we have caught up with the US.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 1 2021 2:38 utc | 181

@179 james

That's a very thin limb you suggest going out on. If the harm you talk about amounts to 5% of populations, that's the immediate harm we see today. But anyone who watches that 1-hour video you supplied the link for, or the 3-hour original, will realize that the potential dangers that Dr. Malone is looking at extend far beyond today.

With the vaccine settling in bone marrow, we could see massive leukemia events - 6 months, 3 years, 9 years from now - impossible to know. With it accumulating in the ovaries, there are multi-generational possibilities. The example of Thalidomide comes up. Regeneration problems are very possible, and they don't always show in the first generation. There is the possibility - although it hasn't been seen yet to have happened - of a new ability of the virus to infect cells that are naturally impenetrable by virus, and that travel throughout the body as part of the immune system.

And all of these things are part of the potential monster that might be unleashed here. And it goes far beyond your 5%, and far beyond today. We now could crush this virus and all its variants with known treatments. But relying on this vaccine policy, the variants will continue to mutate and we'll have this virus with us now, as Dr. Malone says, for the rest of our lives.


The really most crucial point is that informed consent is not being asked for or cultivated here. The messaging in favor of the vaccines - and they are not vaccines, as their inventor says, these are a pure gene therapy play - is the opposite of informed consent. The risks of these therapies are not being communicated, even though manufacturers and the FDA have all the knowledge necessary, and the long-standing bioethics principles are clear on how to speak to people before they get the jab.

Children are not able to give informed consent, and the potential gene therapy risks (high) versus the potential virus danger (low) simply cannot justify this medical procedure. And there are other cohorts that have different risk profiles also, such as pregnant women - but data is not being rigorously collected (in the US) about any of these cohorts. The "vaccines" are still in Phase III trials - they haven't made it to Phase IV where the new drug goes to the general public for study - Phase 3 is still experimental. And the data necessary to make that progression is not being compiled.

And yet, Pfizer is pushing hard for FDA approval, even without the requisite data collection. Every practice of vaccine development has been, and is being, shoved aside.

I get the burnout, by the way, and the need to check out. You don't have to make any response to this, I'm only writing it for anyone who cares to read it.


But even if it were only 5% harm, what then? If you had it explained that there's a 1 in 20 chance that you could get some kind of adverse effect, and no one can say in advance what that effect would be, all the way from somewhat mild up to death - how many people would take the vaccine given those odds?

So obviously, if you want to push the vaccine, you can't explain that medical truth to the people you want to give it to. And that's where we are, as we see all around us.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 1 2021 5:26 utc | 182

@ Grieved | Jul 1 2021 5:26 utc | 182 with the Covid criminality update....thanks

I have a mRNA vaccinated cousin, maybe 74, who has been in the hospital for the past 3 weeks and is now going how with 24/7 care and a diagnosis of blood cancer.

Color me livid.

Max has written that he thinks private banks just need some competition with public banks, not replacement by....and I see him as a person paid to obfuscate the God of Mammon religion at MoA like the VK ideological black hole of obfuscation and misdirection.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 1 2021 6:13 utc | 183

About Israel, numbers going up but few hospitalizations. So yes, you can be Pfizered and still get it and transmit. They have already ordered the 3rd jab for this autumn, a few months ago, when the data about the SA variant, an ancestor of the Indian one if I understand, made it clear vaccines would not be too effective on the new variants.
"Israel reported its highest daily coronavirus infection rate in three months on Wednesday, with 293 people testing positive for the virus"
"There are 1,760 active coronavirus cases in Israel; 24 patients are in serious condition"
"More than 5.5 million Israelis have received their first coronavirus vaccination, and 5.1 million have received their second dose."
According to experts, attempts to curb the entry of coronavirus variants into Israel through Ben-Gurion International Airport are futile at this stage due to the country’s rising incidence of illness and the identification of confirmed cases. “When travelers returning from abroad account for less than 10 percent of confirmed cases, efforts at the airport become meaningless,”." (but it is still not allowed for ppl without Isr passports to get in)
"On Monday, only nine of the 288 newly diagnosed patients were people who had returned from abroad."
So it is local transmission, meaning that Pfizer does not provide herd immunity even at 60% and more.

Posted by: Mina | Jul 1 2021 7:01 utc | 184

Grieved @ 182:

That's dreadful news: we are likely to see cases of leukaemia shoot up and also issues with perhaps polycystic ovaries and even early-onset ovarian cancers, to say nothing of future generations of women being unable to conceive.

Posted by: Jen | Jul 1 2021 7:12 utc | 185

Psychohistorian @ 183:

Really sorry to hear about your cousin and what all your families are going through.

Posted by: Jen | Jul 1 2021 7:14 utc | 186

c1ue @156:

I never said mRNA-vaccines have a "narrow range of risks", I said they have a (maybe even undesirably) narrow scope of effect. And I'm fully aware that the need for additional shots has to do with not the virus, but with how the immune system functions.
But the assumption that a substance that does very little in the body, and no longer has the desired effect suddenly would be shown to have a significant adverse effects to me looks like an emotionally drive guess, that in theory might come out as being correct, but at the moment has very little speaking in it's favour.

And I never said anything in defence of the safety of mRNA techniques in general. Quite to the contrary: I said they ethically questionable. But if you are going to answer the question 'is dynamite good or bad?' it would help to know what it is used for and how it is used, don't you think?

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 1 2021 8:49 utc | 187

"But... but... but if we don't obscure and cover up the adverse reactions to the mRNA vaccines then the anti-vaxxers will win and convince everyone not to get vaccinated! And then the economy won't recover and China will win! And then we will have to keep covering up the ongoing recession to keep the Trumpists at bay! You don't understand! We don't have a choice! We have to do this for wholesome woke goodness and the American Way!" -- literally everyone working in the imperial mass media

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 1 2021 9:15 utc | 188

c1ue @157:

I reflect your you-dont-know-statistcs beam with my but-wait-didnt-i-have-a-masters-degree-in-medical-sciences shield.

In medical science 1/200 is huge. Especially in a short time span. You usually use metrics like x/100 000, or even x/1 000 000.

The risk of getting shot in the US is a global extreme. Could make you think that combining regressive social and economic policies with flooding the country with fire arms maybe wasn't such a good idea after all.

And the number of traffic deaths could make you think that less cars, more public transport and better city planning would be a good thing.

And I've got bad news about the cancer rates: they will continue to rise. The healthier we are in old age, the more of us will die from that disease. Cancer that's not induced by a toxin and not caused by a virus kind of is the body's way of telling you it's time to go.

As for other people being pansies: you are extremely worried about adverse effects that are very likely purely a product of your imagination. Feel like a pansy?

And since I actually know not only statistics but some maths too: 1/10*1/200=1/2000. Funny I can still do simple calculations although my brain is fried. Must be the power of the shield.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 1 2021 9:53 utc | 189

b, so far as mentions go, some of your finest work was on the Boeing 737 Max debacle. So I have a question.

A few days ago I was looking at a photo of the new Boeing 777. I think it was in the context of the nose moving up and down.

Looking at that photo, and hearing of the problem, I must ask, have Boeing done the same thing with the 777 and produced an inherently unstable design in order to squeeze in larger engines? Are we going to see a succession of 777 jets falling out of the sky?

Posted by: John Cleary | Jul 1 2021 10:59 utc | 190

c1ue @159, (also with reference to Laguerre @173):

"Someone who is over 60 in the US has a life expectancy of a bit under 24 years. But more importantly - they're not working, they're not reproducing, they're largely not primary breadwinners for their households."

Here you enter a ethical morass. Using mRNA-vaccins you deem dangerous on them because they are essentially expendable? How's that for an unusually frank display of a neoliberal/neofeudal/neofascist view of ones fellow human beings?

My ethical self would claim that even the life of a 60 year old holds intrinsic value, to which my spiritual self would object, since it considers life to be the intrinsic value of existence, so logically it can't at the same time be held by something. As princess Leia said long ago in a galaxy far far away: 'No! Life is the only truth!'

This also brings us back to risk assessments often being based on oversimplification. Your assessment is based on the risk the vaccine poses to you personally. Fairly self centred, but well in line with the US culture you live in.
I would argue that you have to bring the risk of you spreading the disease into the equation. And the risk of some you convinced spreading the disease. These are just primary effects of you decision and actions. We could widen the circles to secondary effects if we want too.

See what happens? It gets messy! Too many variables. Too many values to be filled in. Too many potential relations between them. Real life has an annoying tendency to be multilayered and chaotic. It throws up variables that often can't be computed, because they have no meaningful numerical form. The numbers have to be reduced, or the equation will collapse. That's why risk assessment has a strong tendency towards oversimplification.

The kind of risk assessment you do some times has value, but it's relevance is by definition very local since... Hey, there's Leia again!

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 1 2021 12:32 utc | 191

Various @ here and there:

I don't know how many deaths and adverse events barflies could calculate with help of the links, but I think it might be appropriate to note that there have been 3 billion doses administered to date. From what I could tell from the posts numbers are relatively smal.

As for big pharma hiding damage done I don't know about the rest of the world, but in Sweden it would be very difficult. Injuries are reported by health care professionals (mostly MDs and nurses) to the Swedish Medical Products Agency, all reports are public, pharmaceutical companies have no role in the collection process.

About treatment risks in general: there are no risk free medical procedures. A story for you: few years ago I met a doctor friend (let the record state that I'm no MD, I'm a physio) in the looker room at the hospital where we both work. He looked down. The first thing he said to me was 'I just killed an old lady'.
Turns out he had been doing ER that day (it's very pressing, they are on rotation). The old lady was taken in after an accident -- badly, but not fatally, hurt. She was in excruciating pain, so he asked the nurse to give her a shot of morphine, and as he put it: "BAM! Flat line! Dead in seconds!"
Turns out you can be over sensitive to morphine. It's rare, but it happens. Is that a big enough reason to stop using that family of drugs?

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 1 2021 13:43 utc | 192

@james #160
Last I looked - there were roughly 5000 deaths in the US attributed to COVID vaccines. The number of vaccinated people in the US is in the 150M range so the chance of dying from the vaccine is 1 in 30,000 - give or take.
So the risk of dying from COVID vaccine is extremely low; pointing to COVID vaccine deaths to not vaccinate is not a sober assessment of risk/reward and is, in fact, a standard pre-COVID antivax argument.
The point I am trying to illustrate above is that the benefits of vaccinating non-at risk people - particularly children but also those from 18-55 - vs. both the known risks (COVID deaths and long COVID or whatever) and the unknown risks - does not equate to a good bet to me personally.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 1 2021 14:10 utc | 193

@Peter AU1 #162
China's statistics are always questionable; what is not questionable is that every single nation in Asia has a COVID mortality 1/7th or less vs. its counterparts in the 1st world US, UK and EU.
So how much of China's success is due to its government vs. just being in Asia?
Certainly some but far less than the absolute statistics indicate. India and the Philippines are arguably the most shambolic nations in Asia - and their COVID mortality per 1M is still very low. India is at 287/1M and the Philippines is at 223/1M vs. US: 1863, UK: 1878, France: 1698, Germany: 1088.
From these numbers - it is clear that no possible COVID response is anywhere close to effectiveness of the "Asia" factor in COVID success.
Nor is it racial/ethnic: Asians in the US died from COVID at roughly the same rates as non-black/Hispanic Americans.
So it seems most likely that some common environmental/disease in Asia conferred some level of COVID protection but we won't know for a long time.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 1 2021 14:21 utc | 194

@Laguerre #163
It is 100% clear that vaccination does not confer immunity to the disease. Many people are still catching it after 2+ weeks post-2nd vaccination shot and the death rates among those people is only somewhat less than straight COVID.
The only clear benefit to vaccination is that an individual's chance to die or get long COVID is lower than if unvaccinated - and that is if they get the disease and if they get the disease and become a serious case.
Let's not forget that the most vulnerable people in the densest cities have already died - so we know for a fact that numbers today are skewed by the population change already (survivor bias).
It is also 100% clear that vaccination will not eradicate the disease.
Anyone who said so after say, May 2020 is a lying sack of shit because the cat was well out of the bag already.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 1 2021 14:26 utc | 195

@Peter AU1 #181
The problem is that the unscrupulous are deliberately conflating smallpox and polio vaccines vs. flu and COVID.
The former 2 are large, extremely stable viruses for which a vaccination is good forever.
The latter 2 are highly mutable; we already know that flu vaccines aren't good for even necessarily the year they are made. Are COVID vaccines better? Far from clear to me.
The reality is that something like half of vaccines are only somewhat preventative. You can get mumps after being vaccinated or even having had it because that's another disease that can genetically vary a lot.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 1 2021 14:34 utc | 196

@Jörgen Hassler #189
I counter your master's degree in medical science with a Post Doctorate in American (and rest of world) Reality.
70,000+ Americans were dying from opiate overdoses every year since roughly 2013. The number of Americans dying from just that is not far below COVID - and those dying were not the over 60 group but people largely in their productive years. Where was the societal concern then? There was none.

How many Americans die, or die sooner because of the American for-profit health care system? Where is the societal concern now?

As such, talk about 1/100000 or 1/1000000 is pure limousine liberal nonsense.

And while I am for public transit - the reality is that public transit does not work unless there is some specific minimum level of density, nor does it work for the people who actually do work for a living that involves physical goods.

You know, the people driving the rich and wannabe rich around in taxis and Uber/Lyft?
The people delivering the Amazon and other online ordering packages?
The people stocking the grocery stores, serving in the restaurants and driving the public transport?

So thank you for your concern - it would be more credible if it actually applied to the majority of people vs. the oligarchy and the 10% PMC (professional managerial) class.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 1 2021 14:40 utc | 197

Various others @ here and there:

Vaccination of children under 18 are ethically dubious (since they can't take the decision on their own and tend to be strongly affected by the virus in very small numbers) and wasteful. We need a coverage of about 60-70 percent (depending on how easily new strains spread and how effective vaccines really are) to slow the spread down significantly, so we can leave them and the odd barfly out.

Once we are at that level, we can start using the methods that has proven most effective again: testing, contact tracing and local blitz short but hard lockdowns if all else fails.

Those methods will never be pushed by medical researchers, not because they don't work, not because they don't work or researchers are evil, but because they are simply not medical. Barflies need to get out there with flyers. Or pray for the resurrection of the long forgotten discipline of 'social medicine'.

Please also note that the lowest level of medical evidence is 'expert opinion'. That's the polite way of saying the individual expert is often wrong. Having graduated from a top ranking medical university and worked at it's hospital I would like to add to that that there's no matching the self confident stupidity of an expert out of his field.
What's most reliable is 'the state of science'. That's not a monolithic runestone, but a dialectical object, full of contradictions, ever changing but still clearly visible at any given time. (We are at an early stage of this pandemic, it will take years for knowledge to some what stabilise.)

I worry when I see barflies relaying heavily on a nonsystematic selection of studies, or on a single internet personality. Be aware of the risks.

[Last sentence obviously does NOT apply to relaying heavily on the infinite wisdom of princess Leia.]

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 1 2021 14:55 utc | 198

@Jörgen Hassler #189, 191

You said:

As for other people being pansies: you are extremely worried about adverse effects that are very likely purely a product of your imagination. Feel like a pansy?

I do risk analysis for a living. Risk analysis means understanding the difference between unavoidable losses vs. catastrophic losses.
Unavoidable losses are just that: losses which are mitigate-able to some degree but cannot be bypassed completely.
Catastrophic losses are institution crippling or ending.

Any given person, institution or society has to make these decisions all the time: is one willing to incur lower unavoidable losses but accept a higher risk of catastrophe? I do this primarily for cybersecurity but did this previous in semiconductor design. Companies are constantly choosing unavoidable losses of cybersecurity spend and incurring greater catastrophic loss risk. And in my line of work, the reality is that most cyber catastrophic losses are perfectly acceptable to a medium to large sized company.

However, for me personally: the unavoidable losses from COVID, at this point, are exactly that: largely unavoidable.

COVID is not the 1918 flu albeit it is a tragedy. Because of this, in my view, incurring risk of catastrophic loss due to hasty use of an unproven and untested technology is not acceptable given the ratio of risk vs. benefit for those not in the high risk group.

You said

Here you enter a ethical morass. Using mRNA-vaccins you deem dangerous on them because they are essentially expendable? How's that for an unusually frank display of a neoliberal/neofeudal/neofascist view of ones fellow human beings?

There is no ethical morass: the reality is that the over-60 - should they die en masse due to some unforeseen and unlikely vaccine related complication - will not negatively impact their societies.

This fact combined with the reality that they do face very real and significant risk from dying due to COVID makes the tradeoff seem realistic to me.

Note that I am not the one advocating anyone to do anything. My personal and professional view is that anyone over 60 should vaccinate, just as the same view is saying that anyone else should not vaccinate with the mRNA stuff just yet - but I am fine with people making their own decisions.

So far, your arguments in favor of vaccination comprise exactly 1 thing: the risk isn't that high.
You have not addressed the reality of catastrophic vs. unavoidable risk.
The advocacy of mass mRNA vaccination is exactly the acceptance of small but real risk of catastrophic loss vs. some mitigation of an acceptable and unavoidable loss.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 1 2021 14:59 utc | 199

@ 181 peter... thanks... it is all very complicated as i see it.. thanks for your take from australia. regarding being behind and whatnot... i think it depends on all sorts of things, but that was interesting what you tried to articulate..

@ 182 grieved.. thanks and thanks for telling me i don't need to reply too, lol.. but i am going to reply! i did say that it is premature to say with any authority what the long term implications of these mrna vaccines are.. i honestly think it is premature to make many conclusions.. people are left with the choice about how they want to move forward every day of their lives without knowing what the future will bring too.. it is the way life works! there is nothing for sure or certain in any of it.. if this is a reason to stop or refuse a particular pathway, that is a persons choice for them to choose.. fear is always going to be a driving force in peoples lives, for good and for bad.. you don't walk in a ''bad'' neighbourhood, or you do based on these same types of choices..

i have said i think the drive for money is skewing information we are given, or not given.. i do believe corporations have to be reigned in.. i view our political leadership as corrupt... all of these conclusions i make are not conducive for trusting the options i am being given.. however, i would like to be given more concrete data here and it is hard to find... as for the long term ramifications of those taking the mrna vaccines - it is too soon to know.. yes, as was pointed out in the 'how to save the world' video i had watched, it is clear the problems with this mrna vaccine are much higher statistically then any previous vaccine... just how high - not sure, but from what i am getting i have been saying 'less then 5%'... that doesn't automatically translate into - 5 % across the board as you have stated, but alas it is easy to get caught up in the minuet of these kinds of details... it really comes down to a person having to make a choice without a complete understanding of it all and it appears information is being suppressed as well... it's not a great atmosphere to make choices, but it is what it is..

Posted by: james | Jul 1 2021 16:13 utc | 200

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