Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 28, 2021

Mentions

Thanks to Peter Lee, aka Chinahand, for pointing out that China's flagship English language media, the Global Times, recently quoted Moon of Alabama:

In an article published on the independent political blog site Moon of Alabama on May 27, the author pointed out that some Westerners' hyping of the Wuhan lab leak conspiracy is similar to the trick the US played in pushing the Iraq War in 2002 - the US claimed "Saddam Hussein will soon have nuclear weapon," which was "obvious nonsense," the author said.

"The 'lab leak' theory is similar to the WMD claim - evidence-free speculation long promoted by a neoconservative leaning administration that was extremely hostile to the 'guilty' country in question," said the author.

The lab-leak theory, therefore, "isn't just about an implausible, evidence free tale of a SARS-CoV-2 lab escape," the author noted. "It is a campaign launched to depict China as an enemy of humankind."

The Global Times quotes from our piece The 'Lab-Leak' Theory Is Not Of Equal Value - Promoting It Furthers The China Hawks are correct.

What is concerning though is that such mention in Chinese state controlled media, warranted or not, will surely entice the usual suspects, from Barfing Cat to Pro Porn OT, to again depict this lone blog as an instrument of entities they are told to defame and dislike.

For the record; Neither this blog nor its author have ever received any gratitude, donation or contribution from any state entity or derivative thereof.

The same thing can not be said of all the entities or persons which criticize it.

Posted by b on June 28, 2021 at 4:43 UTC | Permalink

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So both congratulations and watch your back are in order then....sigh

Good to see you get recognition b. If the latest round of newbie barflies is any indication, you are and will be attacked as too truthy, if nothing else.....keep up the good work

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jun 28 2021 5:10 utc | 1

China will never win a propaganda war against the West. The communist countries were always clumsy and heavy-handed in that department. Even quoting MoA is in itself a bad move. MoA will now be tainted by this association with Global Times. They should have realized that.

Public opinion in the West is lost for China. The best they can do is to focus on the non-aligned countries of the South. Try to help them develop economically, improve their daily lives.

Posted by: Robert Macaire | Jun 28 2021 5:23 utc | 2

Both politics and US big pharma monopolies involved in covid. German company Biontech gave distribution rights in China to a Chinese company that had invested 100 million or so. Pfizer obtained distribution rights to the rest of the world. Taiwan refuses both the Mainland vaccine and because the biontech vaccine is distributed by a mainland company, refused that as well. Mainland could vaccinate the entire population of Taiwan in a day.

There has been information warfare by US big pharma to create a monopoly - WHO says Astra Zenica is good but more reports from different countries on blood clotting appear and it seems, rather than information warfare, WHO wasn't that accurate.
Russian vaccine seems good, made from human coronavirus by known technology. Now licensed for production in many countries.
Biontech and Moderna are new tech mRNA, untried (as to long term effects). US controls the worlds supply of of the stuff required to make it.
From the early months of covid, from what I read, immune response caused more tissue damage than the actual virus, and then sometimes the big hit, sometimes after the virus was gone from the patients system, yet much talk seems to be around medications that counter the actual virus. Viral load is something that is easily measured.

Here in oz well over a year into the pandemic, only small production of Asta Zenica vaccine, the rest purchased from US big pharma, no deducted quarantine facilities but government talking about it. Hotel quarantine. Bit of a joke. Migrant workers used by contractors to look after in quarantine. They generally contract it and live in large household in high density urban areas. Nother lockdown.

My daughters come down for a 2 week visit. Another lockdown in Melbourne made it about a six week visit. Once the lockdown ended here, they would still have to go into two week hotel quarantine in Queensland. For my two daughters, one toddler and two babies it would have cost $9000. What a total frigging mess and the way the vaccine roll out is going will continue for quite some time. Barring our dear leaders bigus dickus hangups, we could have been producing the Russian vaccine in reasonably large quantities by now.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 28 2021 5:31 utc | 3

I prefer to call it "Sinoamerican virus" because it was a product of some chinese and american virologists promoted by Richard Nixon and Mao Tse Tung in 1970s. The virus was developed to be used as a bioweapon. The target was American population. The Sinoamerican virus was tested for the first time in Hong Kong in 2003, causing "SARS epidemy". What happened in Wuhan in January 2019 (not November 2019) was not a test. It was an accident involving two laboratory workers. Both of them had died.

Posted by: Kim Jong Il | Jun 28 2021 5:38 utc | 4

Congratulations, and agree with @psychohistorian and others, watch your back. Attracting the attention of the Eye of Sauron is likely to make your life interesting. And that is not even counting the crazies and obsessives who are in it for free.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 28 2021 6:01 utc | 5

For the record, the opinion of untrustworthy propagandist is even less value of farts in the wind.

You have earned trust.

You are of value.

They are nothing.

Posted by: powerandpeople | Jun 28 2021 6:07 utc | 6

Stand strong b. You are doing the right thing. You are not alone in this fight.

Posted by: d dan | Jun 28 2021 6:17 utc | 7

psychohistorian

Just in this short thread the objects of your prophecy are appearing.
Keep up the good work b. I wasn't up to commenting for awhile, but your articles were always worth reading.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 28 2021 6:44 utc | 8

That's a nice hat tip to you b from the Global Times. Well deserved. The comparison to the propaganda campaign that lead up to the Iraq War and todays propaganda campaign to demonize China is spot on IMO.

Posted by: Michael Crockett | Jun 28 2021 6:57 utc | 9

Peter AU1 #3

In Oz the quarantine guardians will release people after they have a negative PCR test!! Now that is true ignorance. People in quarantine need a reliable test before release. Yes it is more expensive but the latest debacle is because an inadequate PCR test gave the all clear and now millions of people are paying for it in time and money and lost lives because of the gross imbeciles that pretend to be health 'professionals'.

Hint to the healthies... to tell the difference between covid and a carbunkle use a higher cost test that is certain before you put millions on the roulette table.

This is betting millions of dollars of national wealth on a test that was never intended for the purpose. This test is poorer odds than two-up.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 28 2021 6:59 utc | 10

The Global Times article is excellent.

But what a pity that it makes no mention of specific evidence of misterious unidentified (presumably novel) respiratory disease outbreaks in several nursing homes in the immediate vicinity of Fort Detrick, in the July to September 2019 period; and no mention of various articles that appeared in local newspapers at the time which reported these suspicious outbreaks including several deaths.

If the author of the GT article Xia Wenxin is reading this, please consider updating your article to report on these outbreaks and deaths in the vicinity of Fort Detrick in July-September 2019, and the associated local coverage.

Please also make the specific connection with the "evidence of COVID-19 infections in the US as early as December 2019" found by NIH and correct and expand the description of that evidence which is seriously misleading: it was not "evidence of infections in December 2019" that was found at all; rather, archived blood samples collected in the period 8th to 15th December in the US showed significant levels of antibodies to Covid-19, and these antibodies were further shown to be specific to Covid-19 itself and not just cross-immunity to other coronaviruses. The infections associated with these antibodies cannot have occurred in December 2019 but must necessarily have occurred in November 2019 or earlier.

Please also make the connection with proven evidence of Covid-19 infections in Italy, France and I believe also Spain in the period September to November 2019, which I have read are claimed to have occurred in the vicinity of NATO bases, possibly in connection with the transfer of military personnel between those bases and Fort Detrick or bases in its immediate vicinity.

Posted by: BM | Jun 28 2021 7:03 utc | 11

Could the Empire Of The Deranged beat the drums of war in both the South China Sea and the Black Sea?

Posted by: Michael Crockett | Jun 28 2021 7:04 utc | 12

uncle tungsten

I heard about one testing positive a couple of days after being released from quarantine. The Melbourne outbreak of the Indian variant I thought was traced back to hotel quarantine in Melbourne

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 28 2021 7:07 utc | 13

In reading through the GT piece in which b is quoted, projection kept coming to mind. It is always a good rule of thumb to follow when the US is making accusations against target states. That is on top of the timing of the outbreak - when US is making a major move against China, trying to isolate it from the rest of the world and also the total lack of infectious disease prevention in the US even though they had much advance warning.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 28 2021 7:45 utc | 14

300 millions to drag China thru the mud...again ?

With 95% of gringos already lobotomised,
who needs propaganda ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxiWw3n9qp0

Posted by: denk | Jun 28 2021 7:52 utc | 15

Down South 9

Months ago during 2020 many anons and newbies flooded the alt media, alluding to SHI and 'UNC gof to WIV' , they even produced the 2015 Nature's piece as smoking gun of WIV 'complicity'.
I smelled a rat right away.
Somebody set WIV up as scapegoat.
This is a fucking FUKUS FF.

Those who didnt see it then should've
gotten it by now, with 20/20 hindsight.

You've outted yourself mr south/

Are you an idiot or a paid troll ?

My guess is the later.

Posted by: denk | Jun 28 2021 8:15 utc | 16

Congratulations Bernhard,
Global Times article is displayed third position on GT this morning.

Posted by: Rêver | Jun 28 2021 8:21 utc | 17

Congrats b !
I want to add that Peter Lee’s reporting is essential to get the full picture of what’s currently happening in the various flashpoints of the China-US rivalry. Not only that but he called most of what is happening right now with Taiwan and semi conductors 3 years ago. No one else did.
I would encourage anyone that’s tired of poorly sourced biased (one way or the other) China commentary to subscribe to his Patreon. You get a podcast, the transcript with all sources linked, and various articles.
Hope me doing promotion here isn’t rude. I support b as well, and so should you!

Posted by: Loïc | Jun 28 2021 9:26 utc | 18

@ Peter AU1 | Jun 28 2021 5:31 utc | 3

"Barring our dear leaders bigus dickus hangups, we could have been producing the Russian vaccine in reasonably large quantities by now."

100%, fellow Oz plantation munchkin!

But a deal with the Russians (my own preferred option if I needed to) would defeat the whole neofeudal agenda under the Queen of England etc. One of us escaped to the northernhemisphere via NZ before the Canberra prison guards (ooops, I mean 'public servants') realised their 101-level plantation management policy had a loop hole (for the not so mega-rich) -- aka most of us -- it never applied to the 1%.

Just waiting for the Big Sky God to download the "move on" to dear leader over his pentacostal cornflakes. Coould be a long one, ...

Posted by: imo | Jun 28 2021 9:55 utc | 19

Consider it an honor to be slandered by the likes of those two misinformation operations.

Posted by: par4 | Jun 28 2021 10:01 utc | 20

This is one of a handful of bookmarked news sites, none of which are MSM. I used to have google news on there but after they rewrote the front end filters aka censorship, I binned it.

Posted by: Kaiama | Jun 28 2021 10:27 utc | 21

even that recent poll (%29) is over the top, everything is so obvious that it looks like they are just flexing, saying "what can you do about it?". at this point you do not need a counter-propoganda, all you need to do is covering the story and staying impartial as much as you can, you know, journalism.

i am lost, i can not wrap my head around anymore. dumbing down inside the empire and creating/managing chaos outside. what is the end game here? you can't play this game forever (or can you? history keeps repeating itself, just change the skin). in easier times they had only racism and religion politics to hide the one true struggle, now in addition they have covered the remaining bases with ageism, gender, sexism, new-hip-religion, what have you.

question: do you think there are *true* factions in ruling class? if not they are doing even better than my first/second degree family and for that they have my respect.

Posted by: dunno | Jun 28 2021 11:02 utc | 22

In the case of the Covid-19 pandemic it is particular important to distinguish between.
1) What we know with certainty because it has been proven as a fact.
2) What we know with certainty to be false because it has been disproven.
3) What we might suggest because it has some supporting evidence but what we still don't know with certainty.
4) What is pure speculation without evidence but what remaims at least possible because it hasn't been disproven.

All varionts of CoV-SARS-2 ever discovered stem from a group of very closely related variants of the virus which have been found at Wuhan in late 2019 and early 2020. This falls into caregory 1.

This means: "Wuhan is the epicenter of the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic.", falls into category 1 as well.

"A lab leak at Fort Detrick is the cause of the ongoing Covid-19" is category 2.

"Chinese state media are not always telling the truth concerning the origin of the Covid-19 pandemic.", falls now into category 1 as well. Unfortunately. I would have expected better from the Global Times.

Posted by: m | Jun 28 2021 11:12 utc | 23

Imho Get the major players together and establish comms over an ice cold beverage of choice and perhaps a movie. I’d suggest Burn After Reading and I think they have it at the local Sovietbox.

Posted by: Juanita demarco | Jun 28 2021 11:19 utc | 24

Posted by: m | Jun 28 2021 11:12 utc | 23

Read this summary by Andreas Canetti
https://www.unz.com/article/the-flying-pangolin/

Considering that there are multiple strains that can't be connected to wuhan strains that simultaneously emerged in other parts of the world read this as well.
https://citizensparty.org.au/covid-lab-leak-science-refuted

Posted by: Lucci | Jun 28 2021 11:24 utc | 25

Posted by: Lucci | Jun 28 2021 11:24 utc | 25

be careful posting La Roche links here, drive by smear by association would certainly follow.

Posted by: Paul | Jun 28 2021 11:50 utc | 26

Yes, I noticed that quote and attribution of MoA in Global Times when it first ran. I usually scan GT daily---I love to see how tenacious they've become in their pushback against the hypocritical west.

I'm sure this website is widely monitored by senior people on all sides in the geopolitical chessboard, due to the high quality of analysis and mythbusting that is regularly produced here!

Posted by: Gordog | Jun 28 2021 11:59 utc | 27

It is the way that the ‘liberal’ media - equally controlled - have suddenly started pushing the same angle - making a total u-turn having said the opposite when President Trump was tongue in cheek, saying the same (China virus) etc.

The so called humorists - who have grabbed the pulpit of righteousness over the decade - because hey you know, comedians can’t be evil , yeah?

The re-emergence of John Stewart to push this mind washing meme to steer the US liberals into now believing the bs that Trump attempted to finesse, is diabolical. Stewart, his heirs, the Comedy Channel - have hung themselves on the end of the long road they have run out.

Just need to do the autopsy and find who their secret funders and backers were and where they were recruited and trained. How they were used to weaponise humour for the camp of neoliberalism and demonisation of true social democratic radicalism.

Gather the Usual Suspects!

Posted by: DG | Jun 28 2021 12:07 utc | 28

@ 'Robert Macaire' #2, who claims 'China will never win' and warns of MoA being 'tainted by association.'

Sorry friend, but this is delusional.

The west's lying narrative has already LOST---bigtime. That's why they heavily censor comments in major media, if they allow them at all---on just about any foreign policy issue.

As for being associated with GT, that's only a big plus, since this outlet actually delivers TRUTHFUL reporting---which more and more decent people are finding out and LOVING IT!

Posted by: Gordog | Jun 28 2021 12:07 utc | 29

Congrats!

Posted by: noNazis_noCommunists | Jun 28 2021 13:01 utc | 30

@denk, 16

Should that not be FUKUS FFS?

Posted by: cirsium | Jun 28 2021 13:14 utc | 31

Being "mentioned in dispatches" is a huge compliment, Bernhard. The Empire of Stupid's mountain of lies is beginning to crumble.
Incidentally, regarding the Wuhan Lab nonsense, here is a most excellent article on another topnotch indie site which goes for to expose not only the oies but the scientific weakness behind much of what is being claimed about viral transmission and spread. https://thesaker.is/a-bristling-array-of-implausibility-reflections-on-the-unz-bio-warfare-attack-hypothesis/

Posted by: pasha | Jun 28 2021 13:17 utc | 32

m 23 "All varionts of CoV-SARS-2 ever discovered stem from a group of very closely related variants of the virus which have been found at Wuhan in late 2019 and early 2020. This falls into caregory 1."

The earliest case in China was not at Wuhan and was not the forerunner of the outbreak at Wuhan. The original source that the first case and the Wuhan outbreak have come from have not been found.
The rest of your propaganda is also fact free.

US base their propaganda on projection. Projecting onto target states what they themselves are doing. China was were the outbreak of SARS-1 occurred so they had a great interest in studying the bat corona viruses. Gain of function involves researching how viruses can mutate naturally so as to see how these pathogens could appear in the future and allows a bit of preparedness for future outbreaks. US was involved in this research. The US military has biological warfare labs scattered around the globe. Was easy to find at US department of Defense site a year ago but now hidden away somewhere. US is the one country that will not sign up to a biological warfare convention or treaty. Results from the research at Wuhan would have been funneled straight through to US bio warfare labs. US workers in their overseas labs have diplomatic immunity and everything they take into and out of those labs also has diplomatic immunity.

The covid out break was very conveniently timed for the ramping up of the US attack on China. In the original SARS outbreak, it was stopped at US and UK borders by testing and quarantine, same as other parts of the world and has ceased to exist.
Not so this outbreak of covid. Absolutely no infectious disease precautions were taken and to the contrary, US and UK actively encouraged the spread of disease which they then blamed on China.

The US and its biological warfare labs are very much the number one place that needs investigating as to the origins of covid19.


Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 28 2021 13:28 utc | 33

Why would you care? They will ultimately label anyone that doesn't support their agenda as an enemy of the state -- a terrorist. These labels have long lost their meaning to me.

Posted by: A | Jun 28 2021 13:55 utc | 34

I personally am very thankful to you and your sharing of knowledge (that are often hidden) with the wider world and those interested.

Your blog shines like the sun that cannot be hidden by the little fingers of accusers and slanderers who use deceit like it is oxygen.

keep on truckin brother

Posted by: Someone | Jun 28 2021 14:01 utc | 35

The MOA archives will be FUNDAMENTAL for future historians to understand the events from this first decades of the century. Great job, Bernhard!

Posted by: Lost in La Mancha | Jun 28 2021 14:01 utc | 36

The issue in peoples mind should not be where the hell this stupidity happened (or not), but why are countries contlinously playing with fire with bioweapons.

Posted by: Viktor K | Jun 28 2021 14:02 utc | 37

Certainly pointing out the hypocrisy and lies of the USA is helpful to the 'resistance.' Declaring unambiguously that the US invasion and occupation of Iraq was illegal, immoral, irresponsible and a grave crime against humanity is important. The evidence is overwhelming.

But to suggest the same lying mechanisms are in place to disparage Chine through a lab-leak theory isn't close to apples and oranges imo. The United States, the WHO, along with China, did their best to poo-poo the 'lab-leak' theory for more than a year, and called anyone who brought it up a deranged loon of a conspiracy theorist. It is only when the evidence built in favor of a lab-leak versus a 'natural' origin, was the Establishment left with no choice but to pivot.

The problem is one can't blame China for this as they were all in it together.

Posted by: gottlieb | Jun 28 2021 14:05 utc | 38

I have also seen Moon of Alabama referenced by Mark Sleboda on RT and Alex Christoforou and Alexander Mercouris at The Duran (Link: https://theduran.com).

Posted by: Paul | Jun 28 2021 14:05 utc | 39

m (m | Jun 28 2021 11:12 utc) asserts the following is his: 1) What we know with certainty because it has been proven as a fact.

"All varionts of CoV-SARS-2 ever discovered stem from a group of very closely related variants of the virus which have been found at Wuhan in late 2019 and early 2020. This falls into caregory 1."

m, from my perspective, has earned a Brooklyn Raspberry.

It is a longtime-now-well-known fact that the ONLY place where the entire spectrum of early variants could be traced is the USA, not China. Glaringly, there was the near simultaneous appearance of a particularly nasty, apparently more deadly, strain about in Iran - significantly different from that identified in Wuhan with its antecedants in USA. And there were others in other locations traced to variants only present in the USA as well.

For my money, m reveals itself as a shill, a tool, and a troll...

Sadly, there seems to be a growing list of such "identities" appearing on MOA.

Posted by: doesitreallymatter | Jun 28 2021 14:09 utc | 40

Congrats on getting mentioned in the Bêijing outlet "Global Times",and for being maligned by the payed North Atlantic shysters for such fame, but here is my additional take on this:
There are thousands of news outlets in Mainland China. When I used to travel there freqentlly in 1984-85, 1980-92 and 1999-2008, I really enjoyed buying small.town news-sheets and find out how varigated they had become, often also presenting their different takes on foreign news and bringing observations from locals who had gone abroad to work or emigrated. There are also many newspapers that are neither state-owned nor run by the Communist Party (CCP)
The constant reference to what gets published in the "Global Times" just prove how mantally limited these North Atlantic and Indian Shyster hypocrites really are-- and that they probably don1t take the time to red what Chinese-language media in Mainland China writes.

Posted by: Tollef Ås/秋涛乐/טלפ וש | Jun 28 2021 14:29 utc | 41

@Robert Macaire 2 writes:

“ Public opinion in the West is lost for China.”

I wouldn’t be too sure about that. English language “pro-China” videos on YouTube, both state-media and independently produced content, regularly gets view counts in the five and six digits. There are also other examples of China effectively marketing itself to the western public if you take a look around.

You really can’t compare contemporary China’s solid PR efforts with the propaganda produced by the Soviet era communist bloc more than 30 years ago in the pre-internet era when they had no way to cultivate a western audience/readership.

Instead of making dubious claims based on outdated assumptions, do a bit of research on your topic before publicly revealing your ignorance.

Posted by: Antibody | Jun 28 2021 14:33 utc | 42

b:

Do you have, or do you plan to have, a mirror site that can't be confiscated or shut down by the US government? As far as I can tell, any .org site is under the control of some operation in Virginia.

Never hurts to plan ahead.

Posted by: corvo | Jun 28 2021 14:34 utc | 43

,


Posted by: Paul | Jun 28 2021 14:05 utc | 38


Not me.

No big deal.

Posted by: Paul | Jun 28 2021 14:36 utc | 44

Following the mention, I suppose we can look forward to considerably more shills leaving comments. So far they have been fairly easily identified and are usually ignored.

Posted by: Billb | Jun 28 2021 14:36 utc | 45

Dear Mr m

12 Monkeys

Saving endless countries
from the demons we create
whilst we hoover every nickel
from every sovereign state

we MUST be number one
we must KILL the competition
even if it takes
a biological emission

Once the enemy is ravaged
we'll sell our vaccination
but not too soon until we prune
our elder population

Then we'll point our stinking finger
at the countries we deplore
and blame them for our crimes
like so many times before

Posted by: Linda Jean Doucett | Jun 28 2021 14:51 utc | 46

Has Lukaschenko quoted you yet for reminding us how much he is loved and is the victim of a nefarious Western Capitalist conspiracy to remove the Father and Defender of his land of post-Socialist Freedom and Happiness?

Posted by: Malchik Ralf | Jun 28 2021 15:09 utc | 47

Of course it's important for b to watch his back, but that's not enough. Moon of Alabama will probably be shut down sooner or later. What will we do then? All of us who depend on this site need to be thinking of alternatives.

Posted by: Chas | Jun 28 2021 15:10 utc | 48

China will never win a propaganda war against the West. The communist countries were always clumsy and heavy-handed in that department. Even quoting MoA is in itself a bad move. MoA will now be tainted by this association with Global Times. They should have realized that.

Public opinion in the West is lost for China. The best they can do is to focus on the non-aligned countries of the South. Try to help them develop economically, improve their daily lives.

Posted by: Robert Macaire | Jun 28 2021 5:23 utc | 2

Imo, it's not that simple.
"Propaganda" is a polite synonym for "Bullshit". The Jewed-up West is subject to a constant stream of wordsmithed propaganda masquerading as 'news.' "Hello, Thomas L Friedman!".

There is a rising backlash, in the West, to politicians who make cute promises to get elected, and then forget, or are persuaded to abandon them, after being sworn into office. That doesn't happen by accident.

I was watching France 24 at the weekend and they were reporting that 90% of young French voters (20s to 30s) didn't vote in the recent election because they're convinced that it's utterly pointless voting for a candidate who won't listen. And it doesn't matter which "party" one votes for, the result is always the same.

That sentiment isn't confined to France. Add to that the fact that if the Jewish Lobby doesn't approve of a 'moderate' candidate then that candidate will be relentlessly smeared in the Jew-controlled Western Media.

The factor which mitigates against China 'losing' the Propaganda War is that the West over-sensationalises its anti-China bullshit inspiring genuine curiosity in China's response among 'news' consumers. And China normally responds via Official Spokespersons with their own version of the Truth.

The risk to b/MoA for truth-telling is minimal. b bases his analyses and interpretations on publicly-accessible sources and Logic.
And people who disagree are free to say so, right here at MoA where their objections can be 'analysed'.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 28 2021 15:15 utc | 49

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 28 2021 15:15 utc | 49

be careful b.

Posted by: Paul | Jun 28 2021 15:30 utc | 50

Trump will return to the White House in 2024 on the back of the lab-leak theory:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57616323

In the end people believe what they want to believe.

Posted by: Robert Macaire | Jun 28 2021 15:38 utc | 51

Congratulations b. First, I couldn't give a rats behind what these propagandists say. It's a further compliment showing you are getting it right.

This lab is also connected to Fauci. Given events, I am more inclined to name it after him.

Early on, it wasn't considered "implausible". There just wasn't much evidence and the virus was mundane.
The latter can be bio weapon feature or not.

All of these global facilities are extremely dangerous and of course would be under suspicion.

It was "evidence free", lol, sure. It's a good turn of phrase.

More accurately, there was evidence it had been around for long time. If not natural it could have originated in number of locations.

I guess it can take months and years for a new virus to emerge as well. That's new in applying the model to covid.

If the lab had a leak I wouldn't blame China. The same would apply in Eastern Europe. This is US FP in play and involves Fauci and numerous other bad actors.

IE they all some explaining to do before the next leak inevitably occurs.

Posted by: David G Horsman | Jun 28 2021 15:47 utc | 52

What is concerning though is that such mention in Chinese state controlled media, warranted or not, will surely entice the usual suspects

GT has also mentioned NYT many times, sometimes not unfavourably:
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202106/1226242.shtml

Posted by: Keith McClary | Jun 28 2021 15:57 utc | 53

kudos b! the attention is well deserved... the number of new posters here is another sign of your rising profile... i hope they can support you financially as well to keep doing this work as ddan notes - you and many others are doing in their own way...

@ 16 denk... bingo...

@ cirsium | Jun 28 2021 13:14 utc | 31 - fukus false flag... cheers..

Posted by: james | Jun 28 2021 16:08 utc | 54

While this blog and b deserve more recognition for the work done and info collected here (I wonder how much interest b has in publicity?), this will 100% be used for slander against this place by the usual suspects. Not that it matters: frontlines nowadays between ex. pro-China and anti-China proponents are fossilized to the point that discussions between these parties are more reminiscent of football or soccer fans beating the shit out of each other than "smart and reasonable" (self-conception of most of them) people talking to each other.

A small rant on the side (I hope this can stay here, it's almost-OT):

Pro pOrN ot - which I haven't known yet - falls right in line bearing all the obvious markers of bullshit. To give an example:

"When an outlet establishes a pattern of behavior, by consistently, uncritically, and one-sidedly echoing, repeating, being used by, and redirecting their audiences to Russian official and semi-official state media, it is in an important sense irrelevant whether they are a paid Russian proxy, an honest true believer, or commercially opportunistic. The outcomes of serving strategically deceptive narratives to the American public are the same."

You can replace the words "Russian" and "American" with any other two countries (just try "Polish" and "South African" for instance) and not change the meaning of these sentences by one bit. Performing this substitution on the entirety of the text on "The List" that b linked to preserves meaning and grammar perfectly (you'd have to get a little bit more creative with the last paragraph and insert the appropriate names of a president and some local media). Even the actual list with the links is affected somewhat, since almost no tangible examples of the criteria applied in determining whether a site is "bad" are given. Switching the words "Russian" and "American" with each other allows you to copy and paste these sentences and post them right at propornot.ru (if it existed). The second sentence is so detached from the first one that you could just omit the first without changing the meaning or context (try it!).

That's not to say two bad sentences in a single text make entire websites not worth reading. But the rest unfortunately isn't any better. It is this typical bullshit style of writing where most sentences are either tautologies where you can freely substitute the subjects without affecting meaning or readability, irrefutable filler ("we are concerned citizens") that is supposed to convey emotion instead of information or intentionally misleading ("5 is without a sliver of doubt the biggest number there is, as long as you don't take 6 into account").

The worst part about this style of writing is that its ubiquitous nowadays. Without paying attention you don't notice it because it's all around you all the time from adverts to news articles and it comes from all sides (this started out as a rant against ProP or nOT, but a lot of pro-Russian or pro-China or pro-WhateverYouLike sites are affected too). MoA is thankfully not affected by this.

Posted by: pachinko | Jun 28 2021 16:31 utc | 55

@ Posted by: m | Jun 28 2021 11:12 utc | 23

All varionts of CoV-SARS-2 ever discovered stem from a group of very closely related variants of the virus which have been found at Wuhan in late 2019 and early 2020.

That's... not true at all. What's your source for this assertion?

Posted by: vk | Jun 28 2021 16:33 utc | 56

: cirsium 31

Like James says, its FUKUS False flag.

The criminals framing the victim.

A crime most foul.

Same MO in the 'UIghurs genocide'.

Posted by: denk | Jun 28 2021 16:34 utc | 57

gottlieb

It is difficult to tell if you were born just yesterday or the day before.
"It is only when the evidence built in favor of a lab-leak versus a 'natural' origin, was the Establishment left with no choice but to pivot."

Yesterdays propaganda becomes today's facts on which more propaganda can be built. The US government officially has always blamed China. Or don't you think Trump was actually the president?

But I guess rather than being born just yesterday, you have a job to do and money to earn.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 28 2021 17:07 utc | 58

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 28 2021 17:07 utc | 57

lol thanks - actually I was born the day after tomorrow. Trump was President. I do vaguely remember that in the future history books. What Trump wasn't is the Establishment - which clearly laughed at the President and everything he did and said 24/7 no matter what it was, including the lab-leak theory. Indeed Trump was the biggest argument against it.

But I do appreciate your cruelty, truly.

Posted by: gottlieb | Jun 28 2021 17:24 utc | 59

@Peter AU1 #33
There were no quarantines or whatever in the US during SARS1.
I know this for a fact since I flew to and from China and Taiwan at the time many times.
SARS1 didn't go pandemic because - while really bad if you got it - it was not very transmissible.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 28 2021 17:27 utc | 60

Wow the level of ignorance by the more extreme conspiracy theorists is quite impressive.
Just because the mainstream narrative is wrong, does not make every other narrative right.
Nor am I particularly impressed with:
1) Lab leak. Every frigging pandemic was called a lab leak and/or a plot by the same people.
It isn't that it couldn't be true - but it is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
It is REALLY DAMN HARD to create a successful new variant of organism.
Furthermore, you have to do human testing. Monkeys won't work. The assumption of a man-made variation to bat coronavirus implicitly requires massive human testing or an improbability of a lucky hit in the order of the heat death of the universe.
2) US plot: this is nonsense beyond even the above. Which country benefited the most from COVID in the short term? It is 100% China.
But just because they clearly "won" short term COVID does not mean they created it.
But the US, UK and EU benefit the most longer term from COVID.
The oldest people - the ones most likely to either/both have the most capital/resources and/or be the heaviest burden on pension, Social Security, Medicare/national health systems, etc have been significantly pruned.
Neither does this mean the US/UK/EU were responsible.
3) And then there's the antivax crap.
All the usual suspects and their battle tested memes are recirculating with new nouns replacing the old ones.
Don't get me wrong - I personally do not believe that a person under age 60 and who doesn't have existing serious health issues, should be forced to vaccinate. People over 60 definitely should as should people who have serious health problems.
Furthermore, we know clearly that the vaccines neither prevent getting COVID nor prevent spreading of it after you get it.
What the vaccines clearly do is reduce the likelihood of dying or having serious long term health issues if you do.
To balance this out - it is a valid point that we do not know what long term effects might arise from these mRNA vaccines. It seems highly unlikely, but a "Child of Man" scenario would be a negative lottery win.
COVID is here to stay - vaccination isn't going to eradicate it even if magically 80% of everyone got vaccinated today. It is in more than enough people that they make the ongoing flu carrier population look puny - both avian and human.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 28 2021 17:42 utc | 61

Congrats b!! Global Times is far more credible than the NY Times or any other Western rag. Today's Editorial was about the Xi/Putin video call and its contents. I saw this as the main meat:

"It is not only an illusion but also a chimera of Washington that it can sow discord between Beijing and Moscow to facilitate its campaign to suppress the latter two separately. The comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination for a new era between China and Russia is not a temporary one aiming to withstand pressure. Instead, it has incorporated the true ideals of the two countries for the major power relationship in the 21st century, aligning their long-term fundamental interests. Such a partnership has also unleashed the abundant geopolitical advantages and potentials of the fact that China and Russia are each other's largest neighboring country. Therefore, this partnership is unbreakable.

"In other words, those forces that want to destroy China-Russia relations are too insignificant to take China-Russia ties as their target." [My Emphasis]

And just what do "those forces" what to keep from occurring:

"Both countries agreed to uphold common values of humanity, including peace, development, fairness, justice, democracy, and freedom. This was the first time for the two heads of state to jointly define common values of all humanity. The two sides have also expressed their opposition to interference in other countries' domestic affairs under the banner of so-called democracy and human rights, and to unilateral sanctions....

"The joint statement issued on Monday noted the two countries' core diplomatic ideas. For example, a community with shared future for mankind, and the collaboration between the China-initiated Belt and Road Initiative and the Eurasian Economic Union were mentioned. Meanwhile, both countries oppose the moves to stigmatize and politicize others taking advantage of the COVID-19 pandemic and the investigations into virus origins. Besides, China expressed its firm support to Russia's resolute measures to maintain its development and stability in the long term."

Essentially, upholding the UN Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and all the other core UN Treaties that are clearly the "common values of humanity" since they're arrived at via consensus, not diktat. IMO, the editor's most important words are within his conclusion that essentially kicked aside the once Western led world:

"The world is more secure in peace and stability because of China and Russia's comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination for a new era. Now hegemony is counterbalanced, while fairness and justice have strong support. China-Russia relations have never been used to create geopolitical turmoil. The two countries have never threatened third parties. It is really no exaggeration to say that China-Russia relations are a model of international relations in the 21st century."

On another thread today, I mused about those dealing with reality versus those lost in their day dreams. What I find most comical is the West's being undermined by the very values it promoted all during the Cold War, which were immediately reneged upon once it evaporated. For those elites running the West, Zero-sum outcomes have always been their goals going back to the mid 1400s, when an accident of history endowed them with Guns, Germs, Steel, and Superior Ship Building which they used to further their Zero-sum Goals. That historical accident disappeared after WW2, but Zero-sum goals were still pursued although the possibilities dwindled as the world began to resist. Now a New Age was announced in 2013, Win-Win was now the goal for those desiring a "community with shared future for mankind" based on "fairness, justice, democracy, and freedom." In the vanguard there's Socialism with Chinese characteristics which is being emulated by Russia and other likeminded nations in their own ways in an ongoing global process that will consume the rest of the century provided peace can prevail. The West needn't fall; it just needs to change its ways.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 28 2021 18:02 utc | 62

I prefer to call it "Sinoamerican virus" because it was a product of some chinese and american virologists promoted by Richard Nixon and Mao Tse Tung in 1970s. The virus was developed to be used as a bioweapon. The target was American population. The Sinoamerican virus was tested for the first time in Hong Kong in 2003, causing "SARS epidemy". What happened in Wuhan in January 2019 (not November 2019) was not a test. It was an accident involving two laboratory workers. Both of them had died.

CIA/MI6/NSA propaganda spouted by an obvious troll...

For the express purpose of hiding the fact that COVID-19 originated in a DOD bio-weapons lab.... Was vectored into Wuhan in the bodies of the USA military games team..

So.... sorry.... NATO's bio-weapon now devastates NATO!!!!

Due to their own institutional structures!!!

Could'nt happen to a nicer guy!!!

INDY

Posted by: George W Oprisko | Jun 28 2021 18:03 utc | 63

The Chinese don't engage in self serving bullshit...

They don't have to....

For example:
Track laying is complete on the Laos-China Railway.... Test trains begin operating in August...

The hydro-electric dams they build work.... those built by South Korea fail and need repair.... by the Chinese...!

ASEAN knows this....

INDY

Posted by: George W Oprisko | Jun 28 2021 18:07 utc | 64

@ 63
I agree. That is the most likely explanation

Congratulations B. In a world of mis-information and propaganda your blog really shines with integrity.
Here in NZ the MSM news quotes a couple of university professors claiming that in both their China Studies classes an unidentified person was taking photographs. Allegedly a Chinese Government operative seeking intelligence on dissenters. One of these professors is a serial China hater with past unproven claims of being burgled by Chinese agents and the other is an American.
The Chinese Embassy gave no comment. I wish they would. If they are doing this they should stop. If they are not they should speak up and expose the slimy campaign that is being carried out against them. Honesty is the best policy. Ask Putin.

Posted by: ike | Jun 28 2021 18:40 utc | 65

c1ue @60:

I don't think anyone should be forced to be vaccinated, it goes against medical ethics so most of us health care workers wouldn't do the job, you'd have to call in the military.

However, you should definitely take the shots, what ever your age. I'm 49 years old, fit for my age and with no known diseases. I fell ill in march last year,and I am still on full time sickleave because of fatigue and cognitive difficulties. COVID 19 may be a very serious illness even if you don't die from it.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jun 28 2021 18:51 utc | 66

gottlieb

Trump and the Whitehouse, Pompeo ect were the Government so that was official government policy when it come to what Americans call war policy and normal nations call foreign policy. You may not have noticed but now the establishment has their puppet in place as the official government, Trump polices against China are unchanged. Europeans that would not come in on Trump policies now willingly join those same policies. Establishment policy was to take down Trump in every way, block everything he tried to do, though in the case of China and a few others, establishment policy was exactly the same as Trumps.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 28 2021 18:52 utc | 67

Looking at population penetration the numbers are quite telling as to the likely origin of the outbreak (note: outbreak site/"ground zero" doesn't necessarily mean a given country is somehow responsible as that would entail further investigation- BUT, establishing WHERE ground zero was IS necessary to establish how COVID-19 got into the human population). Timeline and numbers tell a pretty interesting story here (please note that there's comedic play here- don't let this throw you off; watch for the numbers!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVWyzTo5njY

Posted by: Seer | Jun 28 2021 18:53 utc | 68

c1ue 60
A while since I read about it and you look to be right. Looking through some early reports from the time, doctors were very much on the alert for possible symptoms in returned travelers, and official US stance on suspected infections was to err on the side of caution using a stricter standard than that recommended by WHO.
One such article from 2003 https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/04/only-35-probable-sars-cases-us-says-cdc

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 28 2021 19:10 utc | 69

Speaking of Mentions...

Many thanks!! to pogohere
for supplying the link posted here:

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/06/open-thread-2021-048.html?cid=6a00d8341c640e53ef02788032a364200d#comment-6a00d8341c640e53ef02788032a364200d

The Sunday Times (London) is behind a pay wall and I had asked for help about a particular article behind that pay wall.

If you are listening pogohere (or *anyone else* that has access to The Sunday Times (London)) I have one more
favor to ask. Would really appreciate it, thanks.

I am doing research for a post (here? at MoA) and am anxious to verify something.

The movie "A Private War" (2018) has these lines verbatim in the script:

editors X & Y at The Sunday Times
---
X:I'm up to my neck
in politics
and we need to report
on the recovery of the euro.

Y:Forget it.
Go with the mass grave.

X:Have you actually spoken to her
since she got back from Baghdad?

Y:Of course I have.

X:It's pretty grim
for a Sunday front page.

Y:Yeah. Is it provocative? Yes.
Will it make people
choke on their cornflakes
when they're reading
about these poor sods? Yes.
We're onto a bloody winner.
Fuck the bloody euro.
---

I am trying to confirm whether the article by Marie Colvin:
"Uncovered: the secret grave of 600 Kuwaitis"
was indeed situated on the front page of The Sunday Times on May 18, 2003
or if that was just another Hollywood scriptwriter's embellishment and
it was actually on some other page.

The Sunday Times *reprinted* the article on Sunday, February 17, 2019
when the movie was released in the UK.
Whether that reprint was on the front page also is not as important to me to know.
___
Thanks again!

Partial Hint of where I am going with this: that Marie Colvin article was 90% pure invention, maybe even demented bull from an alcoholic, PTSD journo. And The Sunday Times knew that she was sick. But they even reprinted the article years later.
And it featured prominently in a Hollywood-Pentagon movie, the so-called "biopic" of Marie Colvin.

I found some startling evidence!
But that is for later.

At this moment I am leaning towards making the central message of my post
about "the reiteration effect" or "The Illusory Truth Effect".
And how the Pentagon makes use of Hollywood and other information sources
to repeat, repeat, repeat their narrative to indoctrinate the public.

Posted by: librul | Jun 28 2021 19:20 utc | 70

China's media has always noted MOA as a credible news outlet as far as I know. Actually I was led to read MOV for the first time about 5 years ago precisely because of reading an article in Global Times citing a news piece on MOA. They were very complimentary of MOA, deservedly so.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jun 28 2021 19:28 utc | 71

Others probably said it before, but this is actually the problem with your site, B:
"For the record; Neither this blog nor its author have ever received any gratitude, donation or contribution from any state entity or derivative thereof."
For the US, any media that doesn't get or accept US money is an enemy, a deviant, a source of subversion.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Jun 28 2021 19:32 utc | 72

There is a difference between a country first identifying a virus and notifying the WHO, and that country being responsible for the virus.
I recall China's response last January, which impressed me into thinking that this virus was a released bioweapon. It didn't take long until researchers also noted that the genome of the virus was clearly not of natural origin.
I also recall a Chinese spokesman pointing out last year that the US had 8 strains circulating and China only had one, so that proved that the virus came from the US, not China. Why now accept the US spin?
I can only assume that China has decided not to try to fight the Mighty Wurlitzer of disinformation with actual facts and logic, but has adopted the new line of the US "We now admit it is a bioweapon, but it is totally China's fault" and is trying to confront that.
That never works for targeted countries. Remember Russia trying to prove that the BUK missile that the US says brought down the Malaysian airliner was not from Russia, instead of pointing out that the plane was shot down by Ukrainian fighter jets?
Bad moves for Russia and China. Stick to the truth, even if the US controlled mass media refuses to report it.

Posted by: wagelaborer | Jun 28 2021 19:36 utc | 73

wagelaborer
China has been for a long time calling on US to allow investigation of their bio labs same as China allowed investigation of the Wuhan lab.WHO after the China investigation also wanted to continue the investigation in all parts of the world to try and find the source.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 28 2021 19:49 utc | 74

yeah, like usa is going to allow china to inspect the closed shop fort detrick.... just like the usa is so open about everything, lololol.................................

Posted by: james | Jun 28 2021 20:15 utc | 75

@71 Oriental Voice
It is not only GT. Contrary to the western belief of Chinese being trapped behind an iron curtain or 金盾工程 jīndùn gōngchéng, ignorant of the world outside, Chinese netizens are regularly consuming western media and reflecting the contents. Different from western internet about China, Chinese internet is very well informed about the west and its media. You could find MoA, as well as strategic-culture etc. often reflected on Sina Weibo microblogs (and also Reuters, Bloomberg, NYT and WaPo). Yet the mood is changing, away from baizuo towards more determined stances decried as "wolf warrior" 战狼 in the West.

Posted by: aquadraht | Jun 28 2021 20:22 utc | 76

Posted by: librul | Jun 28 2021 19:20 utc | 70

If you sign up for a free trial subscription you might be able to discover the page number of the article.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/uncovered-the-secret-grave-of-600-murdered-kuwaitis-dc5qfdk55vd

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-they-led-me-to-the-secret-grave-of-600-prisoners-rdnxtsh3tjm

Posted by: pogohere | Jun 28 2021 20:34 utc | 77

73 wagelaborer
I fail to see anything indicating the virus not being of natural origin. The furin cleavage site is one of the typical "hacks of nature" rather than product of human engineering. It cannot possibly be created by GoF methods where the sequence rather is destroyed over generations. It is not even overly effective. Sure, it works. It reminds a lot Stephen Jay Gould's essay about the thumb of the panda, that is how evolution works.

Posted by: aquadraht | Jun 28 2021 20:36 utc | 78

@Posted by: pogohere | Jun 28 2021 20:34 utc | 77

Appreciate you for getting back to me.

They want you to register a credit card *first* *before* you begin your free trial.

All I am looking for is the front page May 18, 2003. Guess I need to hike to the brick and mortar library.

But thanks.

Posted by: librul | Jun 28 2021 20:42 utc | 79

aquadraht 78

A lot of stuff about dicing a slicing, therefore SARS-CoV-2 is of natural origin. Much research has been done on bat corona viruses since the SARS outbreak in china back around 2002. Genetically modified organisms are only a very recent development. Before that varieties or breeds in plants and animals was done by selective breeding and still are.
Viruses replicate very fast. 15 years or so is more than enough time to develop traits in a virus through selective breeding.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 28 2021 20:58 utc | 80

Apparently some scientists are being intimidated into backing the lab-leak theory:
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202106/1227307.shtml

Virologist Danielle Anderson is among those who have received threats:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-06-27/did-covid-come-from-a-lab-scientist-at-wuhan-institute-speaks-out

Posted by: Robert Macaire | Jun 28 2021 21:13 utc | 81

Pull up a bar stool, my friend.

Can we talk?

What if...
Emphasis "if".

What if the virus *was* man-made and intentionally released.
1) Whoever did it, have they stopped?
2) If it is man-made then variants could be man-made as well.
3) Did they plan all along to create variants and release them at the right time?
4) Could someone else get in on the act, someone not part of the original release?
5) If the original was *not* man-made would that preclude variants being man-made?

Glad we had this talk.

"Tab!"

Posted by: librul | Jun 28 2021 21:39 utc | 82

82 librul
We humans should not get to uppity. Humans cannot "make" creatures beyond tobacco mosaic virus complexity (and that is lowest end). They can modify, breed, re-breed etc. using natural mechanisms. Once a creature is in the wild, evolution rules.

Still very much of biological basics is at best basically understood.

Posted by: aquadraht | Jun 28 2021 21:58 utc | 83

It is good news that the Global Times finds b's journalism worthy of attention; it reflects well on them both. And thanks to those who in our commentariat stay cognizant of the many other articles on the international scene to bring us what is 'out there' as well. I have noticed we are expanding into far corners of the globe, so it isn't just our detractors who increase. In fact, I'd say the good outweighs the bad, in that we have a chance with the latter to carefully vet and gently expose, thanks to b's own flexibility in moderation. Both these qualities are I think unique to this site, and the resulting 'flow' (if I can call it that) is all the better for it.

This is a special place.

Posted by: juliania | Jun 28 2021 21:59 utc | 84

Man-made or nature-made, those labels STILL don't say where the virus came from. Researchers, as we clearly know, have been researching this stuff for many years. Testing against natural OR man-made viri is something that IS done, and the testing facilities generally have to follow very tight protocols to avoid contamination of facilities, facilities personnel and or the public at large. Ft. Detrick had been closed down due to failures in following protocols. That alone doesn't cement it as being the portal from which COVID-19 emerged into the populace; however, the setting was more than ample for such to have happened. To dismiss this possibility is insane.

Here is an article that fails to challenge an official response to the question of Fort Detrick being a possible portal:

https://www.fredericknewspost.com/news/continuing_coverage/coronavirus/as-trump-china-trade-barbs-a-fort-detrick-laboratory-finds-itself-in-the-middle/article_fdf4e5a6-82b8-5773-a8cd-a498e00fb5ef.html>https://www.fredericknewspost.com/news/continuing_coverage/coronavirus/as-trump-china-trade-barbs-a-fort-detrick-laboratory-finds-itself-in-the-middle/article_fdf4e5a6-82b8-5773-a8cd-a498e00fb5ef.html

The conspiracy specifically points to the shutdown of biosafety level 3 and 4 work at USAMRIID by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in July 2019, suggesting that the laboratory was responsible for the virus.

“That is an absolutely false claim,” U.S. Army Medical Research and Development Command spokeswoman Lori Salvatore wrote in an email to The News-Post. “USAMRIID does not take part in offensive research.”

"does not take part in offensive research"

Do they take part in DEFENSIVE research, research having to do with this type of virus?

Again, where did COVID-19 escape control from?

If it came directly from nature then we have to assess pretty much everything we do (growth and encroachment).

If it came from a research lab then we have to assess the robustness of our protocols, not to mention questioning the very premise that we're able to front-run viri w/o being our own worst enemy.

Posted by: Seer | Jun 28 2021 22:02 utc | 85

@11 BM
Covid did come from Fort Detrick, but the initial release was an accident related to a flood that knocked their steam powered autoclaves offline in May of 2018.

From there a less reliable chemical process was used to kill viruses before safe disposal. Privatized and incompetent sub-contractors are used in bio warfare labs just as they are everywhere else in the west, and they screwed up the process resulting in an accidental leak.

Fort Detrick was closed in 2019 for a long list of safety violations that are not to hard to find on the world wide web. Between the flood and the closure we have unexplained outbreaks of a strange "pneumonia" and an unexplained vaping illness.

The Chinese know all this, as do other governments. Chinese officials have brought up Fort Detrick. The time for the Chinese to push hard has not yet arrived and their is strategic value in letting the west squirm trying to pin the outbreak on China.

Posted by: Menzoberranzan's Hei | Jun 28 2021 22:20 utc | 86

The timeline I heard is that in 2014 during the Obama administration, Gain of Function research was ordered stopped. As a result, the NIH led by Fauci sent part of the research load to Wuhan, apparently in defiance of the 2014 order, but whether in outright evasion or through some loophole is not clear to me. In 2017, the order was lifted by Trump, and work came back to the US from Wuhan.

That's the timeline I heard but I would have to dig to find some sources for this timeline. It does fit everything we know of the Trump administration with regard to Obama orders. And it fits how work of all kinds, including secret military work, is outsourced in parts to contracted entities, all the time.

Every time I hear about the virus coming from the Wuhan lab I also hear the unspoken assumption (the "inarticulate major premise") that work on gain of function was ongoing in Wuhan up to or at the time of the outbreak. But I never see this statement actually made.

So those two stories of timeline obviously contradict. If anyone has collateral for the correct timeline, I would love to know about it.

Obviously if it is true that GOF work had already been repatriated from Wuhan back to the US in 2017, this would seem to take a lot of the wind out of the sails of the WIV leak theory (which I personally have never accepted anyway).

Posted by: Grieved | Jun 28 2021 23:12 utc | 87

busy boy b

Posted by: mcrebar | Jun 28 2021 23:17 utc | 88

Your timeline looks about right Grieved. Gain of function? As the original SARS outbreak occurred in China was tracked to the bats and after several years the intermediary, the pangolan was found. Because the virus naturally developed there, it was very much in china's interests to research bat corona viruses to see what threats could develop in the future and the Wuhan lab was the worlds leading lab in that research. I suspect Australian researchers were involved along with researchers from other countries. I am unsure what gain of function research entails, but for peaceful purposes,as in preventive medicine or forewarning, it is to understand how a pathogen can change and develop naturally. What forms it can develop into.
An Australian that was part of the who team wrote an article for the Australian ABC that totally contradicted the lab leak propaganda. My assumption is that the Wuhan lab never developed a strain that could have escaped to become SARS-CoV-2. Also discipline was such that a leak was unlikely.
If procedure was lax there is a chance some pathogen or something that would develop into a human pathogen could have escaped, or if a SARS-CoV-2 type pathogen had been developed, it may have escaped even with proper procedure used, but neither of these appeared to be the case. It was very clear from the artificial by the Australian member of the who team that they were satisfied the virus could not have come from the Wuhan lab.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 28 2021 23:34 utc | 89

@Seer#68.....Thanks for the link. Interesting. Your second post (@Seer#85) reflects sensibly, IMO that we can not say with absolute certainty that the virus came from nature or a lab. This is my take on it. Thanks for that.

Posted by: Michael Crockett | Jun 28 2021 23:40 utc | 90

On the Wuhan lab. From what I have, many universities and research centers all around the world collaborate on many areas of research. China has been vary much into this international collaboration Others learn from Chinese research and China learns from other researchers. Satellite quantum communications is something that for many countries would be top secret, but it was open for all to participate.
From what I read early on in the covid era, the Wuhan lab participated in this research that was open to all. That would need checking now, but may be difficult to find on western internet.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 28 2021 23:44 utc | 91

I suspect confirmation whether or not Wuhan lab was open to other researchers from around the world could still be found in scientific or medical journals and check who are co-authors in research conducted there.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 28 2021 23:50 utc | 92

@Jörgen Hassler #66
I will simply note that the percentage of people who die - even after being vaccinated - from COVID is not tremendously lower than the absolute percentage who die from COVID who are/were not vaccinated.
It is thus far from clear to me that vaccination would have prevented your experience - for which I am sorry you went through it.
This ultimately is the issue.
If:
1) there are only nominal benefits for the vast majority of people
2) vaccination does not eradicate the disease
Then why again should this vast majority of people be taking
a clearly hurriedly developed product?
I will also note that the slightly better results for vaccinated could also be partly due to other factors including:
a) the most vulnerable to catching it/reacting badly/really poor health already died
b) the kinds of people who rush into a new vaccine tend to be richer and more health conscious than the poor.
So yet again - it is not convincing to me that I, or anyone who is not at high risk from COVID, should take the mRNA vaccine. Note this does not exclude all COVID vaccines...

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 28 2021 23:54 utc | 93

@Peter AU1 #69
I make no representation for whatever official stuff is spewed.
I merely was sharing my in-person experiences at the time.
The US didn't do temperature testing at airports then; it didn't do questionnaires; it didn't do contact tracing.
In this respect, US COVID response was relatively much stronger in the sense that 2 homeopathic drops in a 55 gallon drum is stronger than 1.
Yet the sad reality is that COVID in the US is not significantly worse than COVID in most of the 1st, developed world countries with any degree of density.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 28 2021 23:58 utc | 94

Gain of function research does not equal to gain of function improvement. Hence my earlier comment about testing.
Secondly, viruses replicate so badly that they are inherently mutagenic.

As I've noted before: a single cell that is infected with a virus will spew hundreds to mid tens of thousands of "new" virus(virions).
However, as many as 90% of these are mutant - i.e. changed because the viral transcription method is so crap. An infected person will have millions, billions, possibly more infected cells. Now consider the numbers: 1000 virions per cell with 75% error rate = 750 virions. 100 million infected cells = 75 billion mutants. Yes, there are going to be lots of repeat copies, but there are also going to be a lot of novel variations. The vast majority simply are crap - they not only don't improve the virus - they make the virus ineffective; not able to infect at all, not able to replicate, etc etc.

Thus while every single virus mutant is a potential improvement, but we know from decades of recorded medical research that it is extremely rare that any one of these mutants actually matters.

It is only the reality that actual improvement in capability is so difficult - which is why even the ginormous natural viral mutability rarely comes up with something big.

Yes, human brainpower can be more efficient - but how do you test whether a designed mutant is actually more effective? Particularly since COVID uses a new infection pathway that nobody knows about.
Yet again - the notion that somebody just pulled this secondary pathway out of their brain or ass is extremely unlikely - and to be able to do so without mass human testing (of all the failed variants) is even more unlikely.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Motivation, even if clear, does not equate to guilt.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 29 2021 0:11 utc | 95

c1ue 94
I appreciate your personal experience as I then had to check back on what I had read in the past. Yes there was not checks at airports.
Doctors alertness for possible symptoms in returned travelers was very high and with suspected cases, as per US government policy, they erred on the side of caution. Very different from the Trump admin which ignored WHO and medical advice and said it is nothing more than the flue. Over 600,000 now dead. Same in UK.

Australia is a 1st, developed world country. Our figures although not as good as China's are in line with or better than other Asian countries. We have a very low infection rate and death rate of 35 per million and a lot of that due to very lax basic measures to prevent the bug from getting into aged care facilities. China's death rate is 3 per million.
USon the other hand is currently 1886 per million, UK 1877 per million.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 29 2021 0:13 utc | 96

Grieved one propaganda piece here on one Australian involved in research in the Wuhan lab. The propaganda however cannot cover the fact that she saw it as a completely normal lab involved in infectious disease research.
There may have been others physically there at times as the article makes it clear the lab was open to international collaboration on disease research. In many cases, collaboration is other researchers coming up with areas to research and designing tests or experiments, those physically at the lab conducting the tests, then the group discussing test results. I have noticed this in a number of scientific papers.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 29 2021 0:21 utc | 97

Jörgen Hassler @ 66:

I am currently reading Dr Sebastian Rushworth's book "Covid: Why most of what you know is wrong" in which there is a chapter on the Long Covid phenomenon. The author works as a junior doctor in Sweden where he was a first-hand observer of how Swedish authorities initially dealt with the COVID-19 pandemic last year.

The author's view is that Long Covid is not different from post-viral syndrome, the symptoms of which include tiredness, fatigue and brain fog that can last many months. Even common colds can lead to post-viral syndrome. Symptoms can vary from one person to the next. Symptoms consistent with panic attacks (such as waking up in the morning with pain or tightness in the chest) can also be present.

Additionally some people who have been in intensive care for COVID-19 can experience symptoms of post-traumatic stress syndrome.

Perhaps if you can find a doctor or counsellor who is familiar with post-viral syndrome and treating it, you may be able to find a remedy or treatment, or a combination of treatments, that can help you. You may not be able to get rid of your symptoms straight away but if you know what you are dealing with, you may be able to cope with it better.

Posted by: Jen | Jun 29 2021 0:34 utc | 99

Jen, from experience, post viral syndrome is noting more than immune response. A limited autoimmune condition triggered by the virus. Medications used to treat various other autoimmune conditions will likely give best results. Immune response after the live virus has gone from the system is the big problem with covid, and from what I have read and heard, a fair number of people will go through a very lengthy recovery stage even if the initial symptoms are mild.


Grieved
Link to the article by the Australian on the WHO team, written on his return to Australia while still in Quarantine.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-22/australian-doctor-on-the-who-covid-19-mission-china-origin-covid/13180078

This is an interview nine days after the article was published. He would have been under a huge amount of pressure as Australia, acting as the US bullhorn, was accusing China and the lab before and after the WHO investigation of being responsible for the pandemic. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-31/who-inspector-dominic-dwyer-speaks-about-covid-19-report-finding/13283564

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 29 2021 0:53 utc | 100

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