Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 27, 2021

The 'Lab-Leak' Theory Is Not Of Equal Value - Promoting It Furthers The China Hawks

It is a sad experience to see that several writers I like and often agree with are now propping up a Russiagate like conspiracy theory about the origin of the novel coronavirus.

Let's start with Kit Klarenberg who, in a lengthy cherry picking 'lab escape theory' essay, quotes approvingly from a Technology Review piece:

[Computer modeling] generated a startling result: the spike proteins studding SARS-CoV-2 bound more tightly to their human cell receptor, a protein called ACE2, than target receptors on any other species evaluated. In other words, SARS-CoV-2 was surprisingly well adapted to its human prey, which is unusual for a newly emerging pathogen.

Huh?

BREAKING: Virus which predominantly infects humans is well adapted to predominantly infect humans!

Which proves exactly what?

On May 7 Michael Tracey pushed similar nonsense:

As New Evidence Emerges For COVID "Lab-Leak" Theory, Journalists Who Screamed “Conspiracy” Humiliate Themselves

Over and over again early last year, as the COVID pandemic was ramping up but hadn’t yet reached the US in earnest, journalists working at prominent national publications claimed to have conclusive knowledge about the origins of the virus. It was trafficking in a “conspiracy theory” that had been roundly “debunked” — they collectively declared — to suggest that the virus may have originated in a laboratory that specializes in experimenting on human infectious diseases in Wuhan, China.
...
These declarations look dopier than ever after a new article was published this week by the journalist Nicholas Wade, who for many years was a science correspondent for the New York Times. At the very least, Wade demonstrates that the “lab-leak” theory ought not to be discounted. But he also goes much further, showing that the theory is in fact highly plausible.

Is the 'lab-leak' theory as 'highly plausible' as Wade's earlier theory that racial differences in economic success come from genetic differences amplified by culture?

The fact that 140+ well established genetic scientists signed a public letter which rejected the earlier Wade theory as "guesswork" might tell us something?

Two days ago Glenn Greenwald jumped in:

Glenn Greenwald @ggreenwald - 0:09 utc · May 25, 2021

It's stunning how quickly, in mainstream sectors, this traveled from "insane unhinged conspiracy theory that must be censored from the internet as harmful disinformation" to "serious and plausible possibility for which rational evidence exists."
Let's learn lessons from this.

The Hill @thehill · May 25
Former FDA chief: Growing circumstantial evidence that COVID "could have come out of a lab" http://hill.cm/cYH8yN8

Then, under a similar mantle of 'media critique', Matt Taibbi furthered the 'lab escape' theory

When the Wall Street Journal came out with a story that a previously undisclosed U.S. intelligence report detailed how three Wuhan researchers became sick enough to be hospitalized in November of 2019, the toothpaste was fully out of the tube: there was no longer any way to say the “lab origin” hypothesis was too silly to be reported upon.

That’s not to say the “lab origin” theory is correct, at all. However, that’s irrelevant to issue at hand.

No, that is not irrelevant at all.

A few hours ago Jimmy Dore and Matt Taibbi again promoted that shit citing the dubious paper published on January 15 which was not, as claimed, an 'intelligence report' but stove piped speculation by a small group in Mike Pompeo's State Department and recently warmed up again by Michael R. Gordon(!) and others in the Wall Street Journal.

The Narrator has picked that shoddy performance apart:

TheNarrator @TheNarrator000 - 23:52 utc · May 26, 2021

I’m amazed to watch Matt Taibbi correctly note this issue is “highly technical” and requires arduous expert consideration, only to pivot to saying a fringe theory was suppressed in a form of “manufacturing consent.” Wow.
...

Since the virus emerged I have quite diligently followed the scientific discussions about the origin of SARS-CoV-2. I can authoritatively say that the Nicolas Wade theory is not 'plausible' and certainly not 'highly plausible' at all. Wade and other assert that two theses - 'the virus emerged naturally' and 'the virus was created in and/or escaped a Chinese lab' - have equal weight.

We know that trick. Back in 2002 the two claims - 'Saddam Hussein will soon have nuclear weapons' - and - 'Saddam Hussein does not have the means to develop nuclear weapons' - were promoted as equally likely even as they were not. Both of those theses were theoretically possible. But the first was obvious nonsense while the second was well founded in objective facts. The 'lab leak' theory is similar to the first WMD claim - evidence-free speculation long promoted by a neoconservative leaning administration that was extremely hostile to the 'guilty' country in question.

As a reminder here is what the very same Michael R. Gordon and Judith Miller reported on September 8 2002:

More than a decade after Saddam Hussein agreed to give up weapons of mass destruction, Iraq has stepped up its quest for nuclear weapons and has embarked on a worldwide hunt for materials to make an atomic bomb, Bush administration officials said today."

The same day Condoleezza Rice went live to further that nonsense:

On CNN on Sept. 8, 2002, then-National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice infamously warned — incorrectly — that Saddam Hussein may be close to producing a nuclear weapon. When asked how “close” Saddam was to “developing a nuclear capacity,” Rice replied:

RICE: The problem here is that there will always be some uncertainty about how quickly he can acquire nuclear weapons. But we don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.

As a push for action against Iraq, she added, “How long are we going to wait to deal with what is clearly a gathering threat against the United States, against our allies and against his own region?”

To see that writers like Tracey, Greenwald, Taibbi and Dore, usually considered to be adversarial to MSM nonsense, now cite such dimwits like Nicolas Wade and propagandists like Michael Gordon - who again quotes anonymous 'administration officials' - is beyond disappointing.

They encourage others like this BBC nitwit to follow Rice's path:

John Sudworth @TheJohnSudworth - 16:10 utc · May 25, 2021

There is no proof the virus leaked from a lab. But, of course, that’s the point. Without transparency we can’t rule it out either. I’m proud to have been part of one of the first MSM news teams to ask these crucial questions.

"There is no proof that Saddam will soon have nuclear weapons. But, of course, that’s the point. Without transparency we can’t rule it out either. I’m proud to have been part of one of the first MSM news teams to ask these crucial questions."

Yes, the sinophobe John Sudworth is again asking those crucial questions ...:

Hurry Up! Let's invade Iraq China!

Well then, how about these lab incidents:

From Jan. 1, 2015, through June 1, 2020, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill reported 28 lab incidents involving genetically engineered organisms to safety officials at the National Institutes of Health, according to documents UNC released to ProPublica under a public records request. The NIH oversees research involving genetically modified organisms.

Six of the incidents involved various types of lab-created coronaviruses. Many were engineered to allow the study of the virus in mice. UNC declined to answer questions about the incidents and to disclose key details about them to the public, including the names of viruses involved, the nature of the modifications made to them and what risks were posed to the public, contrary to NIH guidelines.

When and where has John Sudworth, or any of the other writers mentioned above, asked the "crucial questions" about the University of North Carolina research with lab-modified coronaviruses?

That he would never dare to do so tells you everything you need to know about the issue. This isn't just about an implausible, evidence free tale of a SARS-CoV-2 lab escape. It is a campaign launched to depict China as an enemy of humankind.

Said differently:

If the question is “are both hypotheses possible?” the answer is yes. Both are possible. If the question is “are they equally likely?” the answer is absolutely not. One hypothesis requires a colossal cover-up and the silent, unswerving, leak-proof compliance of a vast network of scientists, civilians, and government officials for over a year. The other requires only for biology to behave as it always has, for a family of viruses that have done this before to do it again. The zoonotic spillover hypothesis is simple and explains everything. It’s scientific malpractice to pretend that one idea is equally as meritorious as the other. The lab-leak hypothesis is a scientific deus ex machina, a narrative shortcut that points a finger at a specific set of bad actors. I would be embarrassed to stand up in front of a room of scientists, lay out both hypotheses, and then pretend that one isn’t clearly, obviously better than the other. 

Besides the hazy science, there is an undeniable political aspect to this argument. When violence against Asian people in the US is spiking, it’s naive at best and violent gaslighting at worst to pretend that supporting an evidence-free hypothesis that clearly adds fuel to the idea that China inflicted COVID-19 upon the world, that they did this to us, is noble scientific dispassion. There’s a choice being made here between two ideas — one that falls neatly within the world of biology, and the other that knots together conspiracy theory, political intrigue, and xenophobia.

To further baseless speculations about a 'lab escape' of SARS-CoV-2 has serious political consequences:

President Joe Biden said Wednesday he is ordering U.S. intelligence agencies to "redouble their efforts" to investigate the origins of COVID-19, including "specific questions for China."

Biden said an initial report he asked for earlier this month on whether the virus came from human contact with an infected animal or from a lab incident in China was inconclusive, so he's asking for a second report in 90 days to "bring us closer to a definitive conclusion."

"As of today, the U.S. Intelligence Community has 'coalesced around two likely scenarios' but has not reached a definitive conclusion on this question," Biden said in a statement. "Here is their current position: 'while two elements in the IC leans toward the former scenario and one leans more toward the latter – each with low or moderate confidence – the majority of elements do not believe there is sufficient information to assess one to be more likely than the other."

That cave in to the hawks of course only encouraged them to pile on:

"I think we should send a clear signal to China," [Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C.,]said, "which seems to be the source of a lot of pandemics, that if this did occur in the lab, expect something to happen 'cause if we don't, we're just going to reinforce this in the future."
...
"President Biden sides with China, WHO and the liberal media on Wuhan virus—joining the 'nothing to see here crowd' by shutting down State Dept. pandemic origin investigation I commenced," [former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo] tweeted. "This isn't political. America must lead on this."
...
With the lab-leak theory getting new attention, [former President Donald Trump] released a statement this week, saying, "Now everybody is agreeing that I was right when I very early on called Wuhan as the source of COVID-19, sometimes referred to as the China Virus."

The claim that SARS-CoV-2 is men-created and/or escaped from a laboratory is a theory without any supporting evidence. On the other side there are in total hundreds of adenoviruses, rhinoviruses and coronaviruses of various types that have naturally evolved and eventually managed to infect humans. To see Tracey, Greenwald, Taibbi and Dore blaming mainstream media for giving more weight to the well known natural process than to the evidence free 'lab escape' theory is not only hilarious, it is sad.

This especially as they know that all their speculation does is to further warmongering China hawks.

Posted by b on May 27, 2021 at 7:33 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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It is not impossible that China simultaneously has the most brilliant biological warfare programme in the world and also does not know how to keep the pandemic-inducing bugs under lock and key. Not impossible, just rather unlikely.

It is not impossible that when Matt Taibbi and Glenn Greenwald talk up the possibility of the COVID crisis being caused by China, that they might be highly well-informed on this issue. Just rather unlikely.

More likely is the fact that since both Taibbi and Greenwald are under heavy attack from the American left for having dared to criticise the Glorious Leader His Bidennity, they are trying to show that at rock bottom they are trustworthy and decent people. Also, incidentally, both of them are pointing out something which is perfectly true, that the mainstream media has turned on a dime over this issue; in the past when anti-China propaganda benefited Lord Voldemort of Pennsylvania Avenue, it was not the done thing to promote this, but now that the youthful and ever-liberal Democratic Party is safe in control of everything except the Senate and the Supreme Court, it's OK to pile in on the yellow peril.

None of this is of any real value. Incidentally, neither Taibbi nor Greenwald benefit from any of this.

Posted by: MFB | May 27 2021 7:47 utc | 1

Great. Next we'll be hearing about "known unknowns" and "unknown unknowns" in China.

Posted by: bummo | May 27 2021 7:57 utc | 2

Hold on hold on! If the Wuhan lab published their records and lab findings, this would be cleared up in one second. Instead, they stonewalled their ally Peter Daszak and the WHO inspectors.

Meanwhile, Hussein was always in compliance with UN inspectors.

Lastly, Iraq was NOT trying to build nukes but China WAS doing gain of function research.

Don't shoot the messengers just because you don't like the message.

Posted by: Sam | May 27 2021 7:58 utc | 3

The reinvigorated propaganda pushing is due to more and more people learning about the Ft Detrick origin hypothesis. As more, and earlier, evidence seeps into public awareness, more eyes will look towards the USA. Preemptive displacement of fact and reason with drilled agitprop is business as usual for the goons.

Posted by: Lurk | May 27 2021 8:17 utc | 4

@Sam

"Don't shoot the messengers just because you don't like the message."

There is no "message". i.e. there is no peer-reviewed paper/article in the serious scientific arena that supports the lab-leak theory.

Posted by: Cornelius Pipe | May 27 2021 8:19 utc | 5

@ P Chaniet | May 27 2021 8:10 utc | 4

Do you have any evidence for the claim that scientist destroyed the Wuhan coronavirus samples they were working on?
I found this story:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-told-labs-to-destroy-coronavirus-samples-to-reduce-biosafety-risks-11589684291

But it is actually about local authority samples gathered by people already infected. The samples were destroyed because they are classed as a pathogenic biohazard but were not stored in the appropriate facilities and safety requirements. More propaganda spin from the West?

The Wuhan lab hypothesis is possible but without any evidence it is unlikely. For example the claim that because SARS-CoV-2 is more infectious in humans than other coronaviruses like SARs or MERS then that is evidence it was genetically engineered. Bullocks.

Consider the counterfactual, that a natural virus which wasn't infectious, infected people in China. Guess what, we wouldn't be discussing it because no one would notice because it would not have spread. The only reason people are making such a fuss is because this is a global pandemic. Viruses are the most prolific and varied "life" on the planet, far more than even bacteria. Poorly infectious viruses are infecting humans all the time, but no one notices. We only see the big ones.

Posted by: Mighty Druken | May 27 2021 8:31 utc | 6

All well as far as the lab theory being used for geopolitical propaganda against China is concerned. I am wondering, however, why our estimated host always forgets to mention Fauci, Daszak, Baric and gain-of-function research. The lab theory implicates the US first and foremost, perhaps even Fort Detrick, not so much China.

Have I missed b.'s take on US funding of gain-of-function research and on Daszak's attempts to destroy the lab theory as the editor of the Lancet article and as a member of the WHO team with obvious conflicts of interest?

Posted by: Cherrycoke | May 27 2021 8:32 utc | 7

To those individuals repeating the agitprop meme of Wuhan lab secrecy: when was the Fort Detrick lab EVER scrutinized independently, let alone by an international investigation?

By the way, could some propaganda drone explain this away, a retrospective analysis shows 1 in 70 blood donors in dec 2019 to jan 2020 had antibodies for sars-cov-2 intheir blood? That extrapolates to more than 300.000 americans having been in contact with the virus before the epidemic got started globally!

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20201202/covid-19-possibly-arrived-in-the-u-s-in-dec-2019

December 3, 2020 -- The SARS-CoV-2 virus, which causes COVID-19, may have arrived in the U.S. by December 2019, even before the first cases were reported in China, according to a new study published Monday in the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases.

The first U.S. cases were identified in January 2020, but blood samples show that some Americans may have been infected before then.

The researchers, who work at the CDC, analyzed more than 7,000 blood donations collected by the American Red Cross in nine states between Dec. 13 and Jan. 17. Among those, 106 samples tested positive for coronavirus antibodies, with at least some positives in all nine states.

Try to EVALI-uate that for a change.

Posted by: Lurk | May 27 2021 8:35 utc | 8

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202105/1224597.shtml

Global Times is advancing the Fort Detrick theory via an Op-Ed.

Posted by: Smith | May 27 2021 8:41 utc | 9

It's painful to see Taibbi and Dore succumbing to this nonsense. As for Greenwald, I have long given him up. He's not better than Racheal Maddow.

Posted by: Steve | May 27 2021 9:02 utc | 10

"BREAKING: Virus which predominantly infects humans is well adapted to predominantly infect humans!"

Yes, CoV-SARS-2 predominantly infects humans because it is well adapted to predominantly infect humans. Nobody doupts that.. But how did the virus acquire that ability? A virus of zoonotic origin should be very well adapted to infecting it`s intermediate host or natural reservoir host - bats, pangolins or whatever - but innitially not particular well adapted to infeting humans. That`s a skill that according to evolutionary theory the virus should have acquired only over time. The fact that CoV-SARS-2 already at the beginning had been very well adapted to human cells is indeed a piece of circumstantial evidence that it did not evolve by natural evolution.

" The zoonotic spillover hypothesis is simple and explains everything."
Just that it doesn`t. So far zoonotic hypothesis provides for instance no explanation how CoV-SARS-2 did emerge already more adapted to human cells than to the cells of any other species despite the fact that it is supposed to have been infecting the cells of another species until most recently. Maybe scientists will come up with a satisfying answer in the future but the claim that the zoonotic hypothesis explains everything nicely is just a lie.


The zoonotic origin hypothesis stands and falls with the intermediate host. The longer it takes to find an intermediate host or natural reservoir the more it will lose credibility and the more the rival lab escape theory will gain traction. That`s the reason why an increasing number of writers contemplate this possibility. Not because of the war mongers in Washington.

Posted by: m | May 27 2021 9:04 utc | 11

Thanks for wading into this quagmire. It certainly gives me a few more 'data points'. However, just because you write:

Since the virus emerged I have quite diligently followed the scientific discussions about the origin of SARS-CoV-2. I can authoritatively say that the Nicolas Wade theory is not 'plausible' and certainly not 'highly plausible' at all.

Does not make you any kind of authority, and so all of of what you present are your opinions.

I have read Wade's article in thebulletin and it was WAY more convincing than your splicing and conflicting of tidbits on Iraqi WMD.

Just because MSM and deep states are using this matter to their own advantage doesn't mean there is no there there.

Also, you seem to have this great big blind spot wrt covid. From very early on you have been censoring the discussion on this topic. It is doing you no favours.

Disclaimer: I do not know the origins of the virus and I am no specialist, but the zoonotic origin seems very far fetched to me. The lab origin is for me much more explanatory whether accidental or purposeful.

In these times of fake news and lies it is hard to get to any real facts, but the limited evidence presented so far suggests to me that we are being seriously mind-fucked and distracted from 'the truth'. This is important because blame games usually aim to cover up.

To sum up for me:
1. Zoonotic - hmmm unlikely...
2. Lab leak - plausible
3. Bio-warefare - plausible (https://www.unz.com/announcement/breaking-the-silence-on-the-origins-of-covid-19/)

Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 9:04 utc | 12

Some more data points about how easy it is to fall into various kinds of traps wrt pandemics, misinformation, cover ups etc

https://www.bluemoonofshanghai.com/politics/1319/

Its a discussion on the history and origins of the so called Spanish Flu of 1918.

Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 9:22 utc | 13

Interesting, i too had similar suspicions about the latest U-turn on reporting on this topic.

In the end, it is likely we will never know the truth. So here is how i revert to constructing some sense of it all.

Fauci is not reliable, he has flip flopped and been dishonest before. He is fundamentally a political actor.

The journalists (Dore is no journalist nor writer btw, though i respect what he does by bringing news on his show) mentioned by MoA seem to be quoting US intelligence... i share MoA's skepticism on the validity of their claims. The strength of the Wuhan lab theory is ultimately circumstantial in nature to most laymen. So why not push it if China is the enemy.

Now let us look at other factors.

Biden has all but committed to playing nice w Russia (Putin summit, no Colonial hack accusations etc.) and EU (no NS2 sanctions) in an attempt to focus on China, which has been singled out as the US' existential number 1 threat. Ironically, that was also Trump's attempted policy shift, but Russiagate blocked it.

I suspect the rebirth of the lab theory smells of US intel disnfo operation, there are many other indicators pointing to the US finally disengaging from many conflicts to focus on 'the China threat'. It would make sense to rebrand Trump's 'China flu' theory with the legitimacy of Fauci and Biden behind it, perhaps also as some other concessions may have been asked of the Military/Intel like pulling out of Afghanistan, Iran deal, ending US theft of Syrian oil, NS2 etc...

It's not to say the lab theory is not possible. All i can do is look at the breadcrumbs leading back to the media narrative and contextualise it, and just like MoA, there is enough fishiness to it for me to remain skeptical. Sadly, there is equally enough fishiness to a virus breaking out just walking distance from a lab researching coronaviruses.

Posted by: Et Tu | May 27 2021 9:23 utc | 14

"No, that is not irrelevant at all."

Meh. For the purpose of denouncing mass-media censorship it is indeed irrelevant.

As for the Iraq weapons, "without transparency we can’t rule it out either" is also a valid point. It's the next step: 'if we can’t rule it out then we must invade' that you should rage against.

You swing a bit too far, imo, and it hurts your credibility.

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | May 27 2021 9:27 utc | 15

@Lurk You are right people will be pointing to Fort Detrick there is a lot of evidence and dots to connect. Remember resources like this video who have millions of views: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J6zm6zgah0, but is now hidden by youtube

This will bite back especially for the image of US around the globe, Biden administration is pushing this to appease internal political based but will tarnish
even more the image of US.

This has very much potential of blowback, US vassals are already very agitated for the lack of freedom, if they go through a economic crisis this kind of news will not have traction as a Romanian I know that the Communists blaming on Imperial America actually not only didn't work but it had the reverse effect when economy is a problem.

Posted by: svaya | May 27 2021 9:30 utc | 16

It would not surprise me if "Big Pharma" is found to have been releasing pathogens for years just to keep up cold and flu medicine sales.

Posted by: par4 | May 27 2021 9:52 utc | 17

100 years ago, if a new virus appeared there was only the natural, zoonotic origin hypothesis to contemplate as we did not have the technology to engineer such a virus.

However, if a new virus suddenly appears in the world right now one MUST entertain both possibilities that it is either natural or man-made.

Humans now have the technological capability to modify a natural virus to become far more contagious and deadly. Some countries are actively engaging in this type of research illegal or not.

It is entirely rational to, at the very least, consider ANY new epidemic as possibly man-made if not probable. To dismiss either hypothesis before properly investigating is not scientific.

Why is that so controversial?

Posted by: Mar man | May 27 2021 9:59 utc | 18

The lab leak theory is the latest in Australia,coming from ABC Australia and Dr Norman Swan.Yawn

Swan went down several notches doing that, he's lost my respect. He is definitely owned.

Posted by: Debz251 | May 27 2021 10:05 utc | 19

@m

On the contrary, zoonotic spillovers are commonplace in nature and do not require long periods of co-evolution with secondary hosts at all. For sure Ebola didn't, and neither have a suite of other viral pathogens that have gone on to become pandemics. The viral genome of SARS-Covid-2 is clearly very similar to that of coronaviruses which occur naturally. Bats have strong immune systems and harbor tens of thousands of them. The question is not how SARS-Covid-2 become a global pandemic in 2020, but what took it so long for this to happen? Our slash-and-burn approach to the biosphere is not only bringing increasing numbers of people closer to organisms that harbor potential pathogens that can spillover into humans, but by destroying their habitats we are bringing them closer into contact us and the animals that we have domesticated via displacement. When I see people up here writing that the lab release or bio-warfare options are 'plausible', I cringe, because they aren't. Not remotely. We are veering into QAnon territory here.

Importantly, as humans try to take over more of nature (bearing in mind that some 30% of global mammalian biomass the size of a dog or larger is human and another 65% or so livestock domesticated for human use), and force neoliberal capitalism onto more and more nation states, be prepared for new viruses to break out and lead to regional and global pandemics. Pointing fingers at bio-labs and nations like China misses the point entirely. Our entire way of life is making pandemics a greater threat.

Posted by: Jeffh | May 27 2021 10:12 utc | 20

It occured to me that since Faecesbook has suddenly 'allowed' a wider discussion of covid (origins) then we should be worried because it probably means a lot of reality has been fixed strongly enough around the narrative that they (fb and friends) feel safe.

I worry that this means that 'everyone' now agrees that there is a virus problem (as opposed to a scamdemic) and regardless of the origin (blame game) we all need to kiss the ring, shut-up and queue-up for the jab and thank Bill Gates and Pfizer for the good they do.

In case it wasn't clear: I am not buying it.

Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 10:27 utc | 21

Thanks for this. The promotion of the CIA's 'lab-leak', 'China flu' conspiracy theory is incendiary and dangerous. Thanks for exposing this further.

Posted by: John Gilberts | May 27 2021 10:46 utc | 22

They should've rolled out the incubating x files before 9/11, you know, to explain all the anomalous dust...the scheme's blueprint having been finally deciphered from the mysterious patterns spotted in the Gobi desert by Corona satellites back in the halcyon days of intelligence believability.

Did I mention Corona? Hey, well, that gives me another idea...

Posted by: john | May 27 2021 11:12 utc | 23

I like the Chinese FM's version best:

Covid-19 was developed in the US Army's biowarfare lab (US AMRIID) at Ft. Detrick, MD, and it was planted in Wuhan during the 2019 Military Games by US Army athletes.

Posted by: bob sykes | May 27 2021 11:13 utc | 24

Reading that linked Kit Klarenberg article at RT.com, I came away with a rather different impression that the people decrying any possible link between the Wuhan Institute of Virology and the emergence of SARS-CoV-2 are doing so because they (Anthony Fauci, Peter Daszak among others) had money invested in the research programs at this institute. Any involvement that these people have in investigations into the activities being carried out at the WIV therefore must constitute conflicts of interest.

Buried in Klarenberg's report is this little nugget:

... Perhaps predictably, there was no mention that the US military may have funded, whether directly or indirectly, projects conducted at WIV. It’s notable that $34.6 million of [EcoHealth Alliance]’s DoD funding came from the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, a Pentagon division working to “counter and deter weapons of mass destruction and improvised threat networks.” ...

It so happens that Peter Daszak is President of EcoHealth Alliance and that in 2020 most of the organisation's funding came from the Pentagon.

So if the China hawks want to investigate where the funding for WIV's research activities is coming from, they may end up with a lot of custard on their faces.

BTW all this concentrated effort on blaming China for the SARS-CoV-2 looks very much like that old ploy of "Don't look over here! Look over there!" projection that the US is always playing ... because we keep falling for that trick.

Dilyana Gaytandzhieva, "New data leak from the Pentagon biolaboratory in Georgia" (Armswatch.com, September 2020)

... In 2017 the US Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) launched a $6.5 million project on bats and coronaviruses in Western Asia (Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkey and Jordan) with the Lugar Center [in Georgia] being the local laboratory for this genetic research. The duration of the program is 5 years and has been implemented by the non-profit US organisation Eco Health Alliance.

The project’s objectives are: 1. Capture and non-lethally sample 5,000 bats in 5-year period (2017-2022) 2. Collect 20,000 samples (i.e. oral, rectal swabs and/or feces, and blood) and screen for coronaviruses using consensus PCR at regional labs in Georgia and Jordan. According to the project presentation, Eco Health Alliance already sampled 270 bats of 9 species in three Western Asian countries: 90 individual bats in Turkey (Aug 2018), Georgia (Sept 2018), and Jordan (Oct 2018) ...

... Coincidentally, the same Pentagon contractor tasked with the US DoD bat-research program – Eco Health Alliance, USA, also collected bats and isolated coronaviruses along with Chinese scientists at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. EcoHealth Alliance received a $3.7 million grant from the US National Institutes of Health (NIH) to collect and study coronaviruses in bats in China from 2014 to 2019 ...

Oh, don't look over here in Georgia ... look over there in China!

Posted by: Jen | May 27 2021 11:15 utc | 25

Tracey, Greenwald, Taibbi and Dore are not promoting any lab-leak theory. They are simply pointing out that MSM condemns a theory, tries to cancel anyone promoting it, tries to squash and ban any articles contrary to their original assertions, and then, when their CIA handlers feed them new info, dis- or mis-info, they now promote the original theory that they tried to ban, cancel, etc.

Posted by: AnonymouseMOA reader | May 27 2021 11:22 utc | 26

@Jeffh
Quote-"When I see people up here writing that the lab release or bio-warfare options are 'plausible', I cringe, because they aren't. Not remotely. We are veering into QAnon territory here."

Please share what line reasoning leads to the rejection of the lab leak hypothesis. Why is it impossible?

Imagine if a new source radioactive material was discovered.
Now, almost all radioactive material is naturally occurring and that is the most likely source.
But, what if this new material was found within meters of a nuclear research facility?
Would it not be reasonable to at least investigate the possibility of a leak?

Posted by: Mar man | May 27 2021 11:23 utc | 27

And link is down
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202105/1224597.shtm
It didn't take long

Posted by: svaya | May 27 2021 11:24 utc | 28

why would anyone take b seriously on this issue when he's shown himself to be censorious whore for Big Pharma and a China apologist?

Posted by: lizard | May 27 2021 11:36 utc | 29

@22 Jeffh
I didn`t claim zoonotic diseases are unusual.

The argument is that it`s an unusual feature of CoV-SARS-2 to emerge already highly adapted to human hosts. In fact, more adapted to humans than to any other species. The expectation for a zoonotic disease would have benn that it`s highly adapted to some other species or group of species (intermediate host, natural reservoir) and by comparison not particular well adapted to human cells, at least innitially.

(The computer model that brought this to light had most probably been an attampt to identify the intermediate host.)

Posted by: m | May 27 2021 11:46 utc | 30

"These studies revealed that various SARSr-CoVs capable of using human ACE2 are still circulating among bats in China, highlighting the possibly of another SARS-like disease outbreak.Certain areas in Yunnan Province are hotspots for spillover. To support this hypothesis, we provide serological evidence of bat SARSr-CoV infection in humans in Yunnan Province where no prior exposure to SARS-CoV was recorded"

The above from a research paper published Mar2, 2019, warning of the high likelihood of another zoonotic infection to humans, not "if" but when.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6466186/

None of this precludes the possibility of a lab origin, only that it is completely unnecessary AND unlikely, requiring a substantial burden of proof on the accusers. When one takes into account the track record of those making the boldest claims, they cannot be given any credence based on current information or any that is liable to come to light through "data mining" alone.


Posted by: Miller | May 27 2021 11:53 utc | 31

@ lizard | May 27 2021 11:36 utc | 32

Perhaps you went too far in characterizing b's position on all things civid, but I don't think we (barflies and all) are all uncritically swallowing b's opinions.

So rest easy, this changes nothing.

Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 11:54 utc | 32

@ Headache | May 27 2021 11:29 utc | 31

Excellent, thank you for the info.

Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 11:59 utc | 33

Finally! I was waiting for this to appear on MOA for a month now.

In the end, I think Americans just can't stop being paranoid about the rest of the world. The war propaganda is now too deep in their brains, after more than a hundred years of it.

An example: last year, in a interview about psychedelics, very mature for the topic, Joe Rogan suddenly comes out saying something like: "If we're gonna get high, we better make sure the Russians and Chinese are tripping too". WTF?

Posted by: G | May 27 2021 12:01 utc | 34

I've observed how the media's propaganda works for a long time. First, there's the "priming" phase, in which they start reporting "questions" and "suggestions" that lead your to a certain conclusion. The words "allegedly" and "according to" are used frequently. The goal is to make you feel real smart, like a detective, when you reach the conclusion they want you to reach.

The next phase is the "everybody knows" phase. At some point in the propaganda operation, the media drop the "allegedly" and treat the claim as an established fact. Anyone who questions the claim that "everybody knows" is a traitor, a conspiracy theorist, Russian, etc.

We are still in the priming phase with blaming China for Covid. The second phase will come soon.

Posted by: Donbass Lives Matter | May 27 2021 12:07 utc | 35

Posted by: m | May 27 2021 11:46 utc | 33

They also infected dogs and cats and cause similar symptoms. The intermediate host can be from anywhere not specifically from Wuhan or surrounding China itself.

Here's my take. If they believe it's a lab born virus then every labs in the world studying gain of functions on coronavirus should comply to search not just the one in China. But the US and it's client regime would obviously refuses and we're back to square one.

There's no way China would let itself subjected to the malignant espionages that serves malign propaganda that befell Iran with their JCPOA compliance.

Posted by: Lucci | May 27 2021 12:15 utc | 36

@ svaya | May 27 2021 11:24 utc | 30

Indeed it was quick. I still had it in my cache, so not all is lost :-) no piccies or vids tho...


"Time to probe Fort Detrick biolab despite US hype: Global Times editorial"

By Global Times Published: May 26, 2021 10:47 PM
---
US Health and Human Services Secretary Xavier Becerra on Tuesday called on the World Health Organization (WHO) to conduct a second-phase investigation into the origins of the coronavirus in a video message at the annual ministerial meeting of the WHO's World Health Assembly (WHA).

According to some Western public opinions, the second-phase investigation specifically refers to further investigations in Wuhan, China. Plus, US intelligence agencies are spreading misinformation that three researchers from China's Wuhan Institute of Virology became sick with COVID-19 symptoms in November 2019. It is quite clear that Becerra was aiming at China. Representatives from Australia, Japan and the EU echoed his rhetoric.

Before the WHA meeting, the US prepared public opinion to play up the lab leak theory again. It is unknown whether it was a coincidence. Yet Dr. Anthony Fauci, a US top expert in public health, who believed last year that the theory was a conspiracy, recently changed his remarks by saying he is "not convinced" that COVID-19 developed naturally and "I think we should continue to investigate what went on in China."

The second-phase WHO investigation is necessary, but it should be a global investigation, rather than one that only focuses on Wuhan, China. The WHO expert team which visited Wuhan earlier this year has already concluded that the virus was extremely unlikely to have been leaked from a Chinese lab. When the US gangs up with its allies to pin a "non-independent" and "non-transparency" label to the WHO report, it is putting its own political goal above the WHO expert team's scientific spirit.

The Wuhan Institute of Virology has stated that it has had zero infections for all employees since the COVID-19 outbreak. The US' so-called "intelligence" is a vicious political frame-up. Wherever the WHO goes to conduct COVID-19 origins-tracing, it must win the candid cooperation of local scientists and administrative agencies. The WHO expert team has expressed satisfaction and appreciation for China's cooperation. The US wants a presumption of guilt and intends to conduct a "Holmes-style" investigation. It is completely unfeasible in science, and is a political insult to Chinese scientists and administrative agencies.

If they see the "lab leak" theory as one of the directions of the investigation, the Wuhan Institute of Virology should not be the only one included. Since 2019, the Fort Detrick biolab has shown many signs worthy of attention, and should be included in the first group of targets for investigation. In addition, the US has also built an astonishing number of biolabs in Asia, and investigating them is an urgent project that must be added in the COVID-19 origins-tracing.

When Wuhan first confirmed the human-to-human transmission at the early stage of the COVID-19 epidemic and sounded the national alert, there were only a few cases that could be identified. Later events showed that such scale of the epidemic spread like the one in Wuhan hardly received the same degree of attention in the US. Were there COVID-19 cases in the so-called severe "flu" in the US before? A lot of fresh information is calling for WHO experts' investigation into the US.

If the efforts of virus origins-tracing focus on science rather than politics, expanding the scope of the investigation is completely logical and rational. However, the US is repeatedly using its and its allies' opinion tools to draw attention to Wuhan, especially to the lab there. It is clearly a political maneuver.

So far, Washington, in particular, has contributed little material support to the global fight against the pandemic. Instead, it has been talking idly to provoke a siege against China, the world's largest supplier of anti-epidemic products. The US has always been the biggest disruptive force in global cooperation against the virus.

What is unfortunate is that as the most powerful country, the US does not care about global justice, nor the most urgent need of fighting the pandemic jointly. All it cares about is to use every opportunity to suppress its "strategic competitor" - China. When this is involved in virus origins-tracing, there will probably never be a final result of origins-tracing based solely on science.

Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 12:15 utc | 37

@ Gravel Rash | May 27 2021 12:06 utc | 38

Very well articulated. I also find b's opinions and coverage of all things covid very strange, certainly not in keeping with the rest of his output.

I cannot understand why that is, but one thing is for sure: if it remains explained and/or fixed, b's credibility (for whatever its worth) will continue to take a beating...

FWIW, I have also been 'following the covid topic' dilligently since the beginnig, but my conclusions seem to lead me elsewhere. Does that mean I am right/wrong? No! As you said, facts and science matters, not someone's opinion.

Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 12:23 utc | 38

Sorry for typos:

If it remains unexplained and/or not fixed...

Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 12:25 utc | 39

I agree wholeheartedly!

Why is everyone jumping the gun all at once? Because some dimwit wind vane in the US suddenly found it time to bullshit everyone in the opposite direction from the one he chose to do previously.

Posted by: bjd | May 27 2021 12:28 utc | 40

Anything from anonymous U.S. intelligence officials is 100% bullshit. This has proven out repeatedly over the last 75 years,
All the usual CIA media mouthpieces such as Michael Gordon and Ken Dilanian are at it again. It's amazing that people fall for this propaganda so easily.

The good news is that the simultaneous attacks on Russia and China are driving the two countries into an economic and military pact which should hold the now deranged United States at bay.

Posted by: Gareth | May 27 2021 12:34 utc | 41

I would add a couple more items:

1) Even if we posit that somebody in China is so super brilliant or lucky and that they discovered this pathway - it would still require testing. How can you know that any alternate pathway exists? You need testing. How can you know an existing alternate pathway with X bits of genome vs. Y bits of genome - which is better? You require testing. Where are the dozens to hundreds to thousands of test subjects?

2) COVID primarily kills old, non-Asia people (people in Asia have universally better results than people anywhere else.
Most of those people are Asian, but significant numbers are Caucasian, for example). Is this really a useful feature for a Chinese bio-weapon?
The West has been undergoing the same demographic crisis which the more idiotic social scientists have been pointing fingers at China for.
COVID has visibly improved that situation.

If we look at MMO: Means, Motive, Opportunity

Means: questionable. assumes Eureka breakthrough
Motive: for a bioweapon, yes. For COVID specifically, no.
Opportunity: Also unclear. Releasing a bioweapon that helps your ideological/geopolitical opponents in your own population is not a win. And China's extreme measure to contain COVID mean this diseases demographic culling effect just didn't happen in China.

Posted by: c1ue | May 27 2021 12:43 utc | 42

This is an important matter which was politiced from the start. The US immediately claimed the "Wuhan virus" was a leak from the lab (a bio weapon). Lots has happened in the meantime, including the first search/research under the WHO. The conclusion was - lab leak not likely.

The WHO has lost credibility with the Covid pandemic, at least in my view. The WHO and the OPCW can not be trusted. Where does that leave the report on the origins of Sars Cov 2? Well, it's the only one we have, for now, and it says it was not a lab leak.

Who started and is pushing the lab leak origins - the US and its European jesters, but they offer no evidence, as usual. It looks a lot like - offense is the best defense. At least to me.

Why don't they just shut up and allow honest experts to look for the origins wherever needed, including in the US and its faithful.

Posted by: JB | May 27 2021 12:43 utc | 43

RT joined the fray
https://www.rt.com/news/524936-china-usa-covid19-biden-detrick/

Posted by: svaya | May 27 2021 12:44 utc | 44

A few of things missing from b's analysis.

  1. The ground has been prepared for the 'big lie': Uighurs attrocities! Hong Kong crack-down! Bullying Taiwan! Etc.

    The relentless depiction of China as a bad actor makes Westerners more amenable to the view that China was responsible for: 1) deliberately spreading the virus; 2) deliberately creating the virus.

  2. The Empire's many bio-weapons labs (not just Ft. Detrick) are ignored by MSM and even many in alt-media;
  3. US Military funding of mRNA technology is likewise ignored. Logically we can surmise that those who possess a cure or vaccine for a deadly virus are most likely to use it against their enemies - just as the nuclear power with the best ABM defenses is more likely to launch an attack.

<> <> <> <>

Whats the point?

The isolation of China has already begun and will likely accelerate. China will join Russia, Iran, Syria, and Venezuela in the penalty box.

No soup for you!/sarc
(FYI: a phrase frequently uttered by the Seinfeld Soup Nazi)

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | May 27 2021 12:44 utc | 45

BREAKING: Virus which predominantly infects humans is well adapted to predominantly infect humans!

Which proves exactly what?


It proves that this area of 'science' relies on self-fulfilling circular logic

Posted by: Norwegian | May 27 2021 12:48 utc | 46

The only evidence that would matter would be genetic sequences that cannot appear naturally.

No one here has that sort of expertise. Those who do have that expertise would not be reliably evaluated by those here. Some of those with such expertise would always be naysayers, would be fearful, would be controlled or controllable by their military paymasters. Those with the best expertise will speak scientifically, which is to say with great caution.

Ft. Detrick has a good record for keeping secrets.

Using anything at hand to get China has a high probability. Like 1:1.

Posted by: oldhippie | May 27 2021 12:48 utc | 47

@Posted by: bob sykes | May 27 2021 11:13 utc | 26

"it was planted in Wuhan during the 2019 Military Games by US Army athletes"


That is bold of you to say. It has been in the back of my mind for months and months. Good luck proving it, though.
Like proving the JFK assassination; USS Liberty; 9/11. Americans never learn what is truly going on with certainty.
It's the American Way.

Covid certainly played out in the favor of our intelligence agencies. John Durham's investigation was hamstrung by Covid.
The Steele Dossier, followed by Russiagate, followed by Ukrainegate did not do the job for the intelligence agencies -
oust Trump. It took mail-in ballots, necessitated by the Covid pandemic to oust Trump.

Never be surprised by incompetence, and never be surprised when incompetence is used as a cover-up
for intentional acts and never be surprised when said cover-up is believed.

Pentagon Blames Anthrax Fiasco on No One
https://www.thedailybeast.com/pentagon-blames-anthrax-fiasco-on-no-one


For over a decade, the U.S. military shipped a deadly biological agent around the globe.
But the Pentagon can’t find a single ‘root cause’ for this monumental goof.

What the article doesn't ask is how no one on the receiving end of those shipments noticed
a problem for over a decade.

The article promoted the incompetence angle.


A Pentagon report designed to explain how a military lab sent live anthrax to 86 locations worldwide could not find a “single root cause” for the worst biosafety mishap in decades. Nor does the report finger any individual or group for the blunder, The Daily Beast has learned.

Instead, the report blames the shipments of deadly bacteria to 21 states and seven nations over the last decade on the lack of a common scientific standard for killing anthrax, also known as bacillus anthracis. It’s a claim that some experts rejected as an attempt to whitewash sloppy military practices.

Posted by: librul | May 27 2021 12:53 utc | 48

I still think these thoughts of mine from a year ago are not unreasonable.
———————-

gm @ 364

""for 'natural' mutations to be highly concentrated only at 4 discreet, short (18-24-mer length) non-contiguous segments of ncov19 viral genome, and not significantly anywhere else in the 30K-mer long ncov19 genome, is apparently quite unlikely.""

I agree. The important thing now is to deal with the problem at hand but I think it is useful to discuss the origin to better understand the response.

The use as a bioweapon to up the ante in the trade war was in character (consider Libya, Syria, Yemen).

Coronaviruses such as SARS were thought to be regional problems and not pandemic in nature like influenza

China recognized it for what it was and took extreme measures.

The US got unexpected blowback from this enhanced virus. Think dual use and gain of function and essentially became scared shitless.

I don't think the lockdowns and economic meltdown were planned.

But of course the response is typical, witness the direction of the bailouts.

Posted by: financial matters | Apr 4 2020 12:26 utc | 375

Posted by: financial matters | May 27 2021 12:56 utc | 49

@idiocrates,

perhaps you haven't been a barfly for over a decade and recall how this forum once thrived. b is too blinded by his hatred of the American empire, just like too Americans are still blinded by what the Trump-op did to their minds, in order to provide relevant analysis to what this world is facing.

and what's that, you ask? fucking sociopathic elites who chameleon themselves under all kinds of different guises and nationalities.

I don't know why I even waste time checking in. it used to be for the commentary, but even that is pretty pathetic these days.

my suggestion to commenters: you better be making local preparations for what's coming.

Posted by: lizard | May 27 2021 12:57 utc | 50

Now that the ice has been broken and scientists are no longer risking their funding or even careers for supporting "conspiracy theory", there will be a growing acknowledgement in the scientific community that the novel coronavirus is artificial. Continuing to try to argue that the virus is completely natural is a doomed endeavor.

So why has insisting on a strictly zoonotic origin for the novel coronavirus (think really hard on why the Chinese called it that) been wrong-headed? First and foremost because it is simply wrong. More importantly, the competing narrative that the Mockingbird mass media has embraced is that the novel coronavirus has "escaped a Chinese lab". The natural origin narrative is collapsing and will eventually fade away. It doesn't matter that the "escaped a Chinese lab" scenario is also wrong because that is going to be the only one left standing. By insisting that these are the only options, the zoonotic origin proponents are inadvertently reinforcing the Chinese lab leak nonsense.

This is why is has been so important from day one to be raising the biowarfare narrative. Yes, that narrative implies living in a world that we'd rather not be in, but history tells us that we do live in that world. That world where the empire does truly horrific and stupid things did not pass into history and is still with us.

Anyone who promotes the zoonotic origin theory of the novel coronavirus out of concern for China really needs to rethink their strategies.

Posted by: William Gruff | May 27 2021 13:04 utc | 51

@ Jackrabbit | May 27 2021 12:44 utc | 49

just as the nuclear power with the best ABM defenses is more likely to launch an attack.

I don't think that follows in general, because MAD. If you mean to attack a non-nuclear state then I agree, but not with nukes.

Anyway, the best ABMs belong to Russia and I don't think they are more likely to start a nuclear war.

And China is not being isolated, not from where I am sitting. Some criminals in washington, london or brussels may want it, but wishing something doesn't make it so. Especially given their monumental incompetence and stupidity.

Rather they are isolating themselves and their populations. This is ok as that just hastens the sunset upon them.

Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 13:07 utc | 52

I suppose that there are fairies living at the bottom of my garden, and that is why all those mushroom circles are there.

Or, maybe, oh, I dunno, maybe that's just how mushrooms grow.

I better give equal weight to both theories, I suppose.

And those bizarre multi-coloured arches that sometime appear in the sky. What are they?

Are they caused by light refraction through the water droplets hanging in the air after a light shower?

Or do they shine out of the backside of grumpy magical garden gnomes as they hunch over their pot o' gold?

Hmmm, best to err on the safe side and accept both possibilities until someone else tells me how to think.

Yeah, I can totally see how this Covid-Lab-nonsense gets traction in the MSM i.e. they are useful idiots and stenography whores for whatever the Powers That Be want promoted in the press.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | May 27 2021 13:10 utc | 53

The myth of China hiding all the records

From the WHO report:

"The closest known CoV RaTG13 strain (96.2%) to SARS-CoV-2 ... sequenced at the Wuhan Institute of Virology."

In other words, Wuhan did not have any samples of CoV-2. That should settle the matter.

"level (BSL3 or 4) facilities [the Wuhan Virology Institute] ... with a monitoring program [reported no] COVID-19 compatible respiratory illness during the weeks/months prior to December 2019"
The only source that contradicts this is some 'U.S. Intel agency' I'm certain China would decline letting the U.S. State Dept rummage through their lab to plant evidence but being a level 4 lab means that they were inspected by foreign lab workers many times.

The CIA is willing to ruin the World Health Organization to achieve their goals. Some people just want to see the world burn.

Posted by: Christian J. Chuba | May 27 2021 13:16 utc | 54

@Posted by: Yeah, Right | May 27 2021 13:10 utc | 57


Hmmm, best to err on the safe side and accept both possibilities until someone else tells me how to think.

1 + 1 + 1 = 2

Think you meant to count three possibilities.

1) "a strictly zoonotic origin"
2) incompetence - Wuhan Lab Leak
3) Bioweapon

Hmm, maybe there is a fourth we are missing?

By the way, rainbows have more than two explanations:
https://dailymythogies.wordpress.com/2011/02/18/mythology-of-rainbows/
And, yes, the Chinese have their own myth about rainbows.

Posted by: librul | May 27 2021 13:21 utc | 55

If the Chinese wanted to cover up a Lab Leak, the easiest thing for them to have done was not identify Covid as a "new" virus. The symptoms are close enough to the Flu and other common viruses that doctors and scientists can be forgiven for assuming that the earliest cases were Influenza.

Almost everything we know about the first few cases of Covid comes from the scientists in China. Including the fact that most of the earliest cases were not linked to the Wet Market in Wuhan.

The city of Wuhan didn't get locked down until the end of January 2020.

Nothing in China's initial response to Covid suggests that they knew what they were dealing with and were covering something like a Lab Leak up.

For example, if the Chinese, or any government for that matter, knew that there was an accident or breach in security at a Bio-Research Lab, the major stuff they did in January 2020, would've began MUCH earlier.

I still believe a Lab origin is possible and should be investigated but it's far from probable.

Posted by: Janky | May 27 2021 13:22 utc | 56

@ lizard | May 27 2021 12:57 utc | 54

Indeed, I am relatively new, say 5-6 years of reading and less commenting. But thanks for the heads up :-)

With this article from b, and given his past performance and the criticism he's getting (not just from me hehehe) I am starting to ask questions like: Who is the one person whom you cannot criticise? Answer: he who pays your checks.

So while, I am not yet where you are, it seems I am on that same path.

Anyway, to compare notes, what do you suppose is coming down the track?
Full disclosure: I tend to agree something is coming, and it won't be pretty, but I am trying hard to remain positive coz I cannot think of what it could be. I am not including global warming in these calculations, yet...perhaps I should.

The spectrum of possibilities, as I see them is: (worst) nuclear war, lights out
(best) 1984-type lunacy where there are 2 sandpits and the children do not get to mingle, just all kinds of walls in the way.

Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 13:25 utc | 57

Yes. It's also important to understand that the deadly 1918 global influenza pandemic originated in Kansas and was thus called Spanish flu.

Posted by: pasha | May 27 2021 13:26 utc | 58

The worst thing you can think about my government (US) is probably true. At least that's how I go through information. Even if it did leak from China then so what. Beyond stupidity the efforts my country makes to protect the ruling class and their masters. They will do anything but help the rest of us. Its just a sad clown show now.

Posted by: SO | May 27 2021 13:28 utc | 59

THIS. this is why i read this site every day. you basically bothered to type and post exactly what i've been thinking since the wade article came out. the fact that the lone supporter of note for his deterministic bullshit was charles murray tells you the IQ fetishist and gene worshipping quarters in which he resides.

and just like "derpa derp genetics" this has been spread mostly by people who freely admit they have no idea what they're talking about (next time you meet one of those people simply ask the difference between a genotype and phenotype...illuminating). from my limited technical knowledge it seems the focus is on the "furin cleavage site" on the virus' spikes. while it raises some questions i've also seen at least one paper published showing that the "FCS" doesn't always help and in one case (again, from my limited memory) made the virus less virulent. as for the comment(s) on it being named "novel" - who gives a shit? they could have called it "buzz lightyear" but that wouldn't mean it was a talking toy spaceman.

while i agree with anyone wanting more safety and security at this type of lab that can be a very obvious "concern troll" trojan horse for more china bitching. taibbi and greenwald are just obsessing over lesser journalists like they always do and can't resist the urge to "dunk" on the ones doing an about-face on the revolving wheel of "theories". just like 9/11, people would rather focus on what might have happened and scoring twitter points instead of objective facts despite the fact that we'll probably NEVER know the full story.

Posted by: the pair | May 27 2021 13:29 utc | 60

Seems a number of trolls and attack dogs are working the site on this article as if to make sure that China gets nailed with unleashing the virus upon the world, but yet offers NO proof that this is actually so.

Posted by: bluedogg | May 27 2021 13:30 utc | 61

Gareth | May 27 2021 12:34 utc | 45

It's amazing that people fall for this propaganda so easily.

Unfortunately not falling for it depends on scepticism, intelligence, rigor, and detachment; a combination that rarely exists in an overburdened population. Even then the best make mistakes. The human mind, after all, is terrible at discerning truth, especially when it is one degree removed. It has been shown time and time again that people will take the familiar to be true regardless of evidence. But then, even evidence is corruptible when utilized for political ends...the very desire for truth being the veritable cross of proofs and belief upon which men are hung, alas. People are social, not rational creatures. Uncertainty is death in an animal world.

On a separate note, it surprises me how innocent people are. Not to say such and such event is due to malice, but the very concept of a malice so thick and vile as to be monstrous, inhuman, is beyond comprehension and imagination for many. It seems that civil man has forgotten his sociopathic side, at least most have; and a docile prey is an easy one. Pile on a heaping dose of ignorance and all that's left is a heap of burning refuse.

Even further, the lack of imagination regarding the grand play. How could this be? Wouldn't somebody somewhere know? Somebody does know, but nobody listens, nobody has ears for the mad. Just like in grade school where the band plays a tune, each fufulling their part faithfully for the conductor. Now come along everybody, all together now, 1, 2, 3...

All that has changed is the scale.

Posted by: Justin | May 27 2021 13:31 utc | 62

This is my first post on this website which I have been reading and enjoying for some time. I am not posting to China bash. I am posting to condemn the gain of function virus research that is happening and the dangers of viral leak that may occur as a consequence. Bulletin.org have been writing articles about this for literally years, long before Sars-Cov-2. Here are two articles from 2012 and 2014.
The unacceptable risks of a man-made pandemic) 2012
Threatened pandemics and laboratory escapes: Self-fulfilling prophecies 2014

As of now, some 17 months after Sars-Cov-2 emerged, an intermediate animal host has not been identified despite intense research. There are other curious anomalies. Again, another article from bulletin.org I'd suggest people take the time to read and digest.
The origin of COVID: Did people or nature open Pandora’s box at Wuhan?

I don't know if Sars-Cov-2 was a leak and still think a biological origin is probably the more likely. However a laboratory leak cannot be completely discounted and if it wasn't there is still the danger of leaking of another virus from such labs. They should all be shut down.

Posted by: ET | May 27 2021 13:32 utc | 63

@ svaya | May 27 2021 11:24 utc | 30:


The Global Times link DOES work: https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202105/1224597.shtml. svaya's link omits the last character of the link.

Posted by: corvo | May 27 2021 13:50 utc | 64

@ Justin | May 27 2021 13:31 utc | 66


On a separate note, it surprises me how innocent people are...

I think you've put your finger on it. Just the simple idea that the virus COULD have been made in a lab SHOULD be taken as a working assumption that it WAS.

Any other assumption is clearly unsafe and will be an impediment and will waste time, life and treasure.

Then, we must not forget the old Roman proverb 'falsus in uno falsus in omnibus'. Also, all governments lie, without exception. Some more than others.

So, where does that leave me/us?

If I could, I'd be running for the hills, but I cannot.

So, I assume all is lies, all are liers and I need to waste a lot of time sifting, triangulating and learning to get to some conclusions. And even then it does not help that much, as knowledge thus gained only increases my sadness and bitterness.

...but I am still hanging on coz at the end of the day I know its 'just a ride' (thank you Bill Hicks, rip). I am enjoying what face time I have with my children and friends.

Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 13:59 utc | 65

Hey b, here's something for you:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/email-bomb-threat-sent-after-bloggers-plane-was-diverted-over-belarus-swiss-2021-05-27/

it claims that the email bomb threat was sent after the plane was diverted, citing this as the source: https://dossier.center/bel-hamas/

Their source doesn't саы when the email was sent, but it reports that it was received by the ‘administration of Lithuanian airports’ at least 5 minutes before the plane was first contacted by Belarusian dispatchers. Which means that it was definitely sent before the plane was diverted.

And then, the funniest thing: dossier.center has an update, referring back to the Reuters article (that refers to this same dossier.center article), copying now the Reuters claim that the email was sent after the plane was diverted. Even thought their own article refutes it. It's the whole circle, right there. Textbook case.

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | May 27 2021 14:00 utc | 66

@ William Gruff | May 27 2021 13:04 utc | 55


This is why is has been so important from day one to be raising the biowarfare narrative. Yes, that narrative implies living in a world that we'd rather not be in, but history tells us that we do live in that world.

I totally agree. In my last comment (69) I missed saying this (was caught up in some other line of thinking): the working assumption should be that covid is man made AND part of a biowarfare program...all othe assumptions are unsafe.

Elementary logic...

Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 14:11 utc | 67

@Janky d May 27 2021 13:22 utc | 60

If the Chinese wanted to cover up a Lab Leak, the easiest thing for them to have done was not identify Covid as a "new" virus. The symptoms are close enough to the Flu and other common viruses that doctors and scientists can be forgiven for assuming that the earliest cases were Influenza.

Ahem, guess who reported an "exceptionally bad flu season" in the months leading up to the pandemic? Oh yeah, and the "flu" also magically disappeared once people were starting to get tested for the coronavirus.

And then also, before the "flu" started, there was that mystery disease called EVALI, a strange new and deadly lung disease with its uncommon symptom of "ground glass". The only other disease that does that is covid-19...

Posted by: Lurk | May 27 2021 14:17 utc | 68

It's just another comeback for American exceptionalism. They simply cannot fathom sucking this hard.

Posted by: A | May 27 2021 14:19 utc | 69

It is clear that this is going exactly as expected. First the scientismics trash the LL Hypothesis proponents (LLH emerged as a serious hypothesis right at the beginning, alongside the more ludicrous "wet market" hypothesis. They knew that "truth will out", but they gained enough room for themselves by closing ranks and silencing all discussion about the LLH, aided by useful fools.
15m later they acknowledge that they can no longer suppress LLH from the mainstream of discussion, so they roll out the next phase of ops, the "it was all China's fault, we had nothing to do with it" pamphleteering phase. They are bright enough to know that even this version won't hold for all that long, that the USA's central role in developing GoFV research and touting it around the world's labs, will emerge. But in the meantime, maximum damage to China will be the intention. [Notwithstanding the accelerating sinophobia that has been nurtured over the past years, this is unlikely to work in the lobger term, bec of China's preparedness, her diplomatic skills. her allies, the fracturing of the USA's unipolar might and credibility.]
The only saving grace in this is that the leak was probably expected later, this year? next year?, so the USA and her network have been caught somewhat on the wrong foot, with a less-than-perfect operational programme, hence the flaws, the firefighting, the in-fighting and the less-than-united front. This offers us a little opportunity to find spaces to fight back and this is exactly what is happening. b should have the good grace to admit that he may have backed the wrong horse (or better, that dogmatically backing only one (laughable) hypothesis was foolhardy in the extreme), instead of digging in further. Leave that for those with an agenda.

Posted by: petra | May 27 2021 14:22 utc | 70

The Wuhan lab theory issue of interest is the Fauci funding link to avoid Obama era domestic US regulations limiting gain of function research etc. Secondly, by drawing attention to the sliding discourse narratives in progress does not necessarily implicate PRC any more than the USG. Occurance on national soil does not necessarily imply culpability -- as we see in the 1918 American influenza (misnamed Spanish because that was a free news radio zone talking about it).

As for "There is no proof that Saddam will soon have nuclear weapons. But, of course, that’s the point...." -- the whole formular works; they just wash, rinse and reuse in situ. However, you are missing one key point/aspect: neocon-Jesus (or the 'Beyond Responsibility Father' theme) giving the "All and Everything" thumbs-up over various breakfast prayers of the infamous boy-Bush, UK-Blair and little Ozzie, Johnny Howard trio.

Posted by: imo | May 27 2021 14:27 utc | 71

Has the fact that COVID was found in Spanish sewage samples from early 2019 and from Italian cancer patients in fall 2019 been memory-holed? How about the COVID antibodies found in US blood donation samples from the fall of 2019? That too? Are we only being allowed to consider that it was either from a Chinese lab or a Chinese wet market?

This demonizing China is ridiculous. Not only is it the world's factory, it's also the world's biggest market.

Posted by: Woogs | May 27 2021 14:32 utc | 72

"When the Wall Street Journal came out with a story that a previously undisclosed U.S. intelligence report detailed how three Wuhan researchers became sick enough to be hospitalized in November of 2019, the toothpaste was fully out of the tube: there was no longer any way to say the “lab origin” hypothesis was too silly to be reported upon."

It's neither secret, intelligence report, nor previously undisclosed. It comes directly from US State Department's dossier on Wuhan compiled under the Trump administration. The observer was a diplomat, not an intelligence officer. They've embellished the same report twice with foreign intelligence and hospital care. If you read carefully, it tries to insinuate Covid in with common cold and flu. The lab already tested the workers for Covid antibodies and came up negative.

There is another on biological material outside lab at the same time which was sourced entirely to Thailand intelligence. They tried to get the CIA to claim there was heightened activity at that time and they said there was nothing there.

Given past propaganda campaigns, such as the Iraq WMD dossier and the Trump Russia collusion dossier, these incidents will come back and get re-reported as new. Foreign intelligence will be cited to wash the CIA's hands of this.

Posted by: Les | May 27 2021 14:32 utc | 73

1.Zoonotic. Default hypothesis since this is how all previous pandemics have occurred. Very likely, very possible.
(1a)Crossover in china-default hypothesis since this is the region of first 100% confirmed case. (1b)Crossover elsewhere-very possible, solid indications of spread (N.Italy etc.). Very worth checking. entirely possible.

2.Unintentional Lab leak. Within the REALM of possibility. Very unlikely but still worth checking. Would require substantial independently verified evidence. Very hard to prove because any lab/ organization/person that did fuck up like this will go to great lengths to cover it up.
(2a)-leak from Wuhanlab-within realm of technical possibility. but really highly unlikely (2b)-leak from Ft. Detrick EQUALLY within realm of possibility.

3.Biowarfare. Technically possible, but only if the biowarriors are insanely stupid. A scenario so divorced from the actions of rational motivated activity it renders rational analysis pointless. It would be a stupid pointless crime with no motive or any possibility of proper targeting. So I guess the CIA might have done it.

Posted by: kons | May 27 2021 14:35 utc | 74

>> Meanwhile, Hussein was always in compliance with UN inspectors.

LOL. That’s not what the warmongerers said at the time. They were making the same claims as you are now: “inspection access was limited”. Blah blah.

It’s not beneath these warmongerers to digitally generate a Chinese face and complain that China hasn’t produced a scientist for questioning. Or anything else.

Posted by: oglalla | May 27 2021 14:52 utc | 75

There is an important element missing in this analysis: If the Chinese scientists had wanted to close the controversy, it would have been easy to prove at the beginning that Covid-19 was different than the Corona virus they were working on.

Instead the laboratory was put under military supervision and all the samples were destroyed. Not exactly the best way to prove your case!

The Chinese convincingly showed the WHO team that the Wuhan Lab did not have samples of any viruses similar to COVID, and was not working on them.

Bats of the kind that possibly could be a reservoir do not occur in Wuhan.

The infection was shown to begin at the Hotel where the US Team stayed.

The infection occurred just before Chinese New Year, a time when a very great number of Chinese are traveling to their home villages to celebrate. Regardless of this, Wuhan and Hebei Province were put on lockdown and all travel was forbidden.

Documents show that the Chinese did not know what the virus was, or how dangerous it was, or how to treat patients ill with it. But they caught on fast, and sequenced the genome within 2 weeks.

It is a given that those promoting the Lab Leak theory, mysteriously focus on the Wuhan lab, while ignoring the dozens of DOT bio-warfare labs present in Asia, and the proven USA bio-warfare attacks against asian countries.

The Wuhan Lab link theory could be suppressed.... via gas explosions in the perps homes at night while they are sleeping.... induced by cruise missiles... I wonder how long they would spout this nonsense, were they targeted for elimination by.... the target of their ire...

Meanwhile.... there is an entire web universe of anti-vaxxers... who are focused on the spike protein present in the USA vaccines... and claim those vaccinated are dying of blood clots.. or will be dead in 24 months.

Meanwhile... researchers believe temps in the arctic ocean will rise sufficiently to release the methane hydrates on the ocean floor in sufficient quantity to raise earth's temp by 10.6 degrees celsius, sufficient to cause mass human extinction by 2027... in just 6 years time....

Meanwhile.... tapes of the chatter between the RyanAir flight and Minsk air traffic controllers show that Belarusian officials were clueless regarding the presence of the man they arrested following it's landing.

So, the bomb threat was a false flag... the Wuhan lab leak is a false flag... spike protein causing blood clots is a red herring....

Promoted by whom...

INDY

Posted by: George W Oprisko | May 27 2021 14:54 utc | 76

@ RJPJR | May 27 2021 14:42 utc | 81

Thank you, very helpful.

Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 15:03 utc | 77

@Idiocrates | May 27 2021 10:27 utc | 23

Thank you. I agree.

Posted by: Norwegian | May 27 2021 15:03 utc | 78

@ George W Oprisko | May 27 2021 14:54 utc | 83


researchers believe temps in the arctic ocean will rise...by 10.6 degrees celsius, sufficient to cause mass human extinction by 2027... in just 6 years time....

Ahem, belief is a beautiful thing.

Did you mention this as another example of scams and false flags or the only example of what you 'believe' to be a gem of truth. I ask because it isn't clear if you intended sarcasm.

Anyway, climate change seems to be another one of those interesting topics along the lines of covid, Spanish flu from Kansas, JFK and the Moon Landings.

We all know what happened...or do we?

Thats thr problem with lies...once they gain critical mass then all bets are off. People will believe anything or nothing...

Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 15:14 utc | 79

Many decades ago, the West poked fun at the USSR for briefly endorsing Lamarckism instead of Darwinism. It also bathed itself in glory with the "Lysenko affair" (about which Western propagandists and glory seekers publish until the present day).

Now, the Chinese (Communists - not those freaks from Taiwan and HK) poke fun at the West for what essentially is an official and public defense and endorsement of Intelligent Design.

Sic transit gloria mundi.

Posted by: vk | May 27 2021 15:21 utc | 80

@ Posted by: Sam | May 27 2021 7:58 utc | 3; @ Posted by: P Chaniet | May 27 2021 8:10 utc | 4; @ Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 9:04 utc | 13; @ Posted by: Mar man | May 27 2021 9:59 utc | 20; @ Posted by: Mar man | May 27 2021 11:23 utc | 29; @ Posted by: Gravel Rash | May 27 2021 12:06 utc | 38; @ Posted by: William Gruff | May 27 2021 13:04 utc | 55

You two didn't read the WHO's report, did you?

Read it. The WHO team had full access to the Wuhan lab. The only mathematically possibility the virus came from there is if it was in a still non-catalogued (i.e. very new) sample - but this is a "Nazis still live in the far side of the Moon" level of probability. We're talking about a one in one trillion or more chance - statistically impossible in the human scale.

--//--

@ Posted by: Lurk | May 27 2021 8:35 utc | 9

That's only more evidence the virus evolved naturally, i.e. didn't come out of nowhere (as Kit Klarenberg claims).

--//--

@ Posted by: m | May 27 2021 9:04 utc | 12

The fact we didn't discover the last intermediate is not evidence it was artificially created.

What you state is merely the false equivalence fallacy recycled.

By the way, the Chinese scientists who are investigating the origin of the virus in Wuhan (they're doing so incessantly, since the pandemic started) don't know the specific intermediary, but they already know it must have been a very numerous species in the region, with a lot of contacts with the human population located there - most likely, a rodent. So, we still don't know the exact species that served as the last intermediary, but we're getting closer.

Approximation is extremely valid in science. Newton's famous laws are wrong, but for centuries they were a good enough approximation of reality, until the need to send satellites to space made them socially outdated. Science doesn't need to come with the absolute truth right out of the bat to validate itself.

--//--

@ Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 10:27 utc | 23

That's the problem with both Facebook users and Facebook haters: they think they're the center of the universe.

Don't what happens and doesn't happen in Facebook dictate your perception of reality. It's not that deep.

--//--

@ Posted by: Jen | May 27 2021 11:15 utc | 27

The difference here is that Dilyana Gaytandzhieva actually does investigative journalism. She goes to the lab facilities she's investigating, while Kit Klarenberg doesn't get out of his comfortable flat somewhere in a gentrified area of the USA and does Twitter journalism.

What Dilyana investigated and published relates solely to the object she investigated, i.e. the Georgia lab.

--//--

@ Posted by: Headache | May 27 2021 11:29 utc | 31

Why would you use Bayesian probability for a phenomenon you can directly investigate?

Even then, Bayesian probability can't conclude shit. It's just a method of interpretation of statistics. That's cool as an academic exercise, but the USA can't do foreign policy with it.

And no, you didn't read the doctor's paper (which is a bad taste joke, very unprofessional). Stop pretending you do. My experience with this blog commenting section is that 99% of the posters don't go much beyond Twitter, Facebook and headlines depth of investigation.

--//--

@ Posted by: Lucci | May 27 2021 12:15 utc | 40; @ Posted by: ET | May 27 2021 13:32 utc | 67

Gain of function is merely the technique. It's like blaming knife attacks on the knives, or blaming legal drugs overdose on the drug.

If one equalizes gain of function to bioweapons, one will have to investigate decades of research on dozens of laboratories around the world. Send me the results of such investigation in 3100 CE.

--//--

@ Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 12:15 utc | 41

I read the article. It's clearly a rhetorical joke by the Chinese on the American ridiculous attempt to blame the pandemic on the Chinese government.

The Chinese know the SARS-CoV-2 evolved naturally.

--//--

@ Posted by: c1ue | May 27 2021 12:43 utc | 46

COVID-19 doesn't kill more non-Asians. In fact, the initial "theory" in the West (the "this is Xi's Chernobyl moment" era) was that it only killed Asians (I remember that because many of the commenters in this blog spammed that insane theory here during the first two months of the pandemic).

All your assumptions are wrong.

--//--

@ Posted by: JB | May 27 2021 12:43 utc | 47

The problem with your argument is that the WHO's report is the only scientific evidence we have. It's the only foreign scientific expedition to Wuhan and the Wuhan lab.

In science, we have to base our hypotheses on evidence we have, not on evidence we don't have. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.

--//--

@ Posted by: Jackrabbit | May 27 2021 12:44 utc | 49

I don't know. China is not Russia, Venezuela or Iran.

My opinion is that China is above the America's pay grade. Those same siege warfare tactics will not have the same effectiveness.

--//--

@ Posted by: oldhippie | May 27 2021 12:48 utc | 51

Every genetic sequence can happen naturally. That's one of the fundaments of the modern theory of evolution.

The environment merely determines which genetic sequence will survive and thrive.

--//--

@ Posted by: lizard | May 27 2021 12:57 utc | 54

Local preparations for what? For the war against China you all secretely want so much?

--//--

@ Posted by: SO | May 27 2021 13:28 utc | 63

The problem isn't the USG's credibility. The problem is that these so-called "intelligence reports" are no intelligence reports at all. The USG is not bringing any evidence.

I would have no problem whatsoever to admit the virus came from the Wuhan lab if the USG came out with definitive intelligence that proved it did. But they didn't, and will never do so - because the evidence proves the SARS-CoV-2 evolved naturally.

--//--

@ Posted by: blues | May 27 2021 14:11 utc | 71

The pangolin was certainly one the intermediaries. It just wasn't the last one before reaching humans.

Please don't distort what the scientists are researching.

The fact that American capital was invested in the Wuhan lab is even more evidence the SARS-CoV-2 didn't come out of it, because the Americans must have the full catalogue and other kind of intelligence on the lab.

--//--

@ Posted by: petra | May 27 2021 14:22 utc | 75

"Supressed"? The whole thing was basically revived with the official blessing of the Biden administration! All the sources those "journalists" are quoting come from American official sources.

My god, the lack of critical thinking here in this forum is absurdily high.

--//--

@ Posted by: RJPJR | May 27 2021 14:42 utc | 81

Sources?

--//--

@ Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 15:14 utc | 88

So, you believe in the bunch of scientists who claim, with extremely weak and pseudoscientific arguments, that the SARS-CoV-2 came from the Wuhan lab, but you're ready to dismiss the scientists who support the hypothesis of climate change?

What makes you think you are the arbiter of science?

Posted by: vk | May 27 2021 15:23 utc | 81

GWO @ 83

Yes the web world of anti-vaxxers is wild and wooly. OTOH there is now a voluminous published and peer reviewed literature for spike proteins causing thrombosis and thrombocytopenia. The web world makes keeping up with all this possible and raises continuous pitfalls. Just for example the all dead in 2 to 3 years attributed to Luc Montagnier is now supposed to be bad translation. Bad or stupid or malicious? I would like to think it a case of dopes hearing what they wish to hear, and I trust those who spread that tosh even less than I trust official information.

No one knows how fast Arctic Ocean temps will rise. We know they are rising. No one knows the threshold at which methane will be released from subsea clathrates. We know that release rates are rising and that in geological time there have been major releases in cognate circumstances. Anyone who says six years is blowing smoke. Anyone who says a disaster is impossible has their head in the sand. Research is largely discouraged.

Posted by: older | May 27 2021 15:24 utc | 82

Older above is oldhippie. Spellcheck.

Posted by: oldhippie | May 27 2021 15:25 utc | 83

@Posted by: oldhippie | May 27 2021 15:25 utc | 92

Also born in the Year of the Dragon.
What month, if I might ask.

Posted by: librul | May 27 2021 15:28 utc | 84

(Sam | May 27 2021 7:58 utc | 3
Bullshit. If China were to publish every detail of what happened in their lab during the period in question, the reaction would certainly be - 'lie, lie, lie. How could anyone believe the Chinese? They manipulated everything, of course.' So why bother?)

The statement of the 140 experts mentioned by B contains various biological arguments about the improbability for a construction of the properties of SARS-CoV-2 by human scientists. And these people do know how the relevant scientists think and work. They belong to them.

An important element that B does not mention is the fact that there have been proven SARS-CoV-2 infected people in Europe - Italy, France - that predate the allegedly occurred cases in the Chinese laboratory. The probability is high - and it is telling that this is not discussed - that there were already cases in Wuhan during the International Military Games held there in October. These could then have been brought in from somewhere in the world by athletes, or could have been infected locally, meaning the virus circulating much earlier.

Posted by: pnyx | May 27 2021 15:29 utc | 85

On the bright side:

Facebook et al (and big Media in general) look like morons for preemptively blocking any discussion of lab created virus for a year and now all of a sudden allowing it: the thought suppression and narrative generation is obvious to all.

The potential for military labs to create holocausts is in the news. Yes, the focus is Wuhan and this particular virus may or may not be lab-created; but people MAY think about the issue more generally: wtf are we doing with "gain of function" research? Why do we have stockpiles of killer viruses? This may cause attention to fall on a big vulnerability to humanity and may head off the next "accident" ... who would be against that?

Finally, just because the US empire is a bad actor does not make China a good one. Binary thinking is bad for the soul ... and the intellect.

Posted by: Caliman | May 27 2021 15:36 utc | 86

Congratulations to our host for a very good post. It is a question of why such unmixed good sense would prompt so much push-back from the commentariat.

I will nevertheless add that lab leak hypotheses are all still biowarfare hypotheses. That they picture the gun going off accidentally instead of on purpose is a trivial detail. Biowarfare tries to weaponize existing pathogens, not turn relatively harmless ones into deadly ones, for approximately the same reasons someone trying to make a hand weapon will start with blade instead of a rubber ball. And, hand in hand with research into a weapon is research into a hilt, so to speak, a vaccine to keep your bio-sword from cutting yourself. Also, there is a good bit of technofetishism, where quasimagical things are imagined to be possible because someone says something science-y. I like SF very much myself, but I've never been so foolish as to think SF is actual science. (Most people who talk about SF writers dumping science on the reader are semi-literates at best, ignorant at worst.)

Mischievous demands to present facts bespeak either a crude view of "science," (likely derived ultimately from the reactionary pig Popper.) Or an equally crude bluff to hide how there are no facts to support biowarfare lab leak. (Again, lab leak is always a biowarfare hypothesis.) Wuhan was not a biowarfare lab, period. That's a fact.

Posted by: steven t johnson | May 27 2021 15:39 utc | 87

steven t johnson | May 27 2021 15:39 utc:

"Biowarfare tries to weaponize existing pathogens, not turn relatively harmless ones into deadly ones, for approximately the same reasons someone trying to make a hand weapon will start with blade instead of a rubber ball."

Indeed. However, this does not address gain of function research, which there is proof for, and accidental release, which happens lamentably frequently. In other words, lab release does not necessarily imply an attack nor agency: it could just have been an accident.

Posted by: Caliman | May 27 2021 15:46 utc | 88

@steven t johnson | May 27 2021 15:39 utc | 99

Wuhan was not a biowarfare lab, period. That's a fact.

But USAMRIID Fort Detrick is a biowarfare lab, even though the USA will not admit to that.

The USA has plenty of experience at biowarfare, look into the atrocities it perpetrated during the Korean war.

Check out Frank Olson's story. Biowarfare specialist tasked with those nasty jobs got second thoughts about his efforts after an involuntary lsd session with Sidney Gottlieb. When he tried to tell all about what he and his associates had been up to, he got spiked again and was threwn out of a skyscraper window. All you may have heard about the story is that lsd is bad because it makes you think that you can fly out of the window. Sigh.

Posted by: Lurk | May 27 2021 15:52 utc | 89

Like a broken record, I must once again ask why no one has FOIAed (Freedom of Information Act) the updates and research reports by EcoHealth Alliance and Fauci's group (NIAID and NIH) that are usually required to obtain payouts on contracts. There could be a lot of information on the gain-of-function research being carried out (as stated in their original funding contract).

Posted by: naiverealist | May 27 2021 15:52 utc | 90

Chinese government's extraofficial response to Biden's decision to reactivate the CIA for propaganda warfare against China on the Wuhan lab conspiracy theory:

Assigning intelligence agency on virus origins probe a political move: Global Times editorial

The Chinese raise a very important point: if you're so convinced the virus came from the Wuhan lab, why resort to your intelligence service instead of the proper official channels? The answer can only be the fact that the USG has full control over what comes and doesn't come out of its intelligence, and it is not auditable "for national security reasons".

Posted by: vk | May 27 2021 16:02 utc | 91

I really don't understand why people feel they have to be defensive on behalf of the Chinese when discussing a possible leak from the Wuhan lab. It isn't as if it is a Chinese government lab, it is a lab with multinational connections extending even as far as the WHO. If gain of function research was performed in that lab, it is the Chinese government that ought to be outraged, that dangerous research was performed in a lab in one of their largest cities. It is unthinkable that the Chinese government would knowingly allow such research to take place in such a location.

Personally I don't give a rat's arse whether Covid-19 is entirely natural or whether it was created (whether Fort Detrick, Wuhan or elsewhere) the important thing is that gain-of-function research does apparently take place and must be stopped.

Posted by: MarkU | May 27 2021 16:08 utc | 92

@ Posted by: MarkU | May 27 2021 16:08 utc | 104

Read my first comment in this thread. The WHO team investigated the Wuhan lab and found out it didn't leak from it.

Posted by: vk | May 27 2021 16:12 utc | 94

@vk | May 27 2021 15:23 utc | 88

you're ready to dismiss the scientists who support the hypothesis of climate change?

Do you dismiss the hypothesis that water is wet?

This kind of silliness must stop. A constant climate has never existed, it is always changing.

Posted by: Norwegian | May 27 2021 16:13 utc | 95

@ Posted by: Idiocrates | May 27 2021 16:07 utc | 102

Because the WHO is as credible as any other international institution, and because the WHO's team is, so far, the only one that actually went to the place to investigate. That is a first person account over what there is (and there isn't) in Wuhan.

Those "journalists" you all so trust on never went to Wuhan, and never interviewed any involved part, to come up to the "lab leak" theory. They're Twitter and smartphone journalists, parroting official American "sources".

Posted by: vk | May 27 2021 16:16 utc | 96

@ vk | May 27 2021 16:12 utc | 106

The WHO team was headed by a guy with obvious and strong connections to the lab, a clear conflict of interest. Additionally the WHO itself has indirect connections to the lab.

Posted by: MarkU | May 27 2021 16:17 utc | 97

@ Posted by: Norwegian | May 27 2021 16:13 utc | 107

And do you dismiss the hypothesis that viruses evolve?

So far, no pandemic virus has ever come out from a laboratory.

Posted by: vk | May 27 2021 16:18 utc | 98

@ Posted by: MarkU | May 27 2021 16:17 utc | 109

But then, so is the USG suspect. So are all of these Western "journalists". The sword cuts both ways.

What makes a WSJ CIA-based article more trustworthy than the WHO?

Posted by: vk | May 27 2021 16:20 utc | 99

vk @89: "You two didn't read the WHO's report, did you?"

Strawman.

My argument that the virus was used by the US as a bioweapon and did not come from the Wuhan Institute of Virology does not contradict the WHO report. I am in full agreement with the WHO report on the point of the novel coronavirus not having come from the WIV. In no post have I ever claimed that the novel coronavirus came from the WIV. That is a lie that you have propagated and seem incapable of correcting yourself on.

You are the one insisting that the only possibilities for the origin of the novel coronavirus are pure zoonotic and a "leak" from a Chinese lab. Your perspective is damaging to China.

"But to use a bioweapon like this would be really stupid and incompetent, not to mention morally bankrupt!"

And?

That is hardly a counterargument. I present to you Trump, Biden, Clinton, Pompeo, "Bloody" Gina Haspel, Brennan, Clapper... Which one are you suggesting would make a principled stand against using a bioweapon like the novel coronavirus to take China down a couple notches?

Posted by: William Gruff | May 27 2021 16:26 utc | 100

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