Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 15, 2021

U.S. And Its Five Eye Partners Use 'Persuasion', Sabotage And Disinformation To Gain Vaccine Supremacy

The U.S. and some of its allies are engaged in efforts to malign the Russian Sputink V vaccine and to promote the more expensive mRNA vaccines produced by 'western' companies.

Back in November we warned that the vaccine competition would be ruthless:

The mRNA vaccines hyped in the U.S. media are simply too expensive to be used around the world. If we want to limit the global effects of the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic we will have to use the cheaper vector based vaccines.

That the AstraZeneka vaccine was immediately attacked in U.S. media by an unqualified writer quoting an investment bank and the U.S. pharma promoting (Remdesivir!) Antony Fauci is quite suspicious. Pfizer and Moderna expect to make billions of dollars with their vaccines. They will use all possible ways and means to defeat any potential competition.

Vladimir Putin, the President of Russia, recently noted how unfair competition practices are used to keep some vaccines away from nations who urgently need it:

Producers are struggling for the global vaccine market worth $100 billion, Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday.

Some producers compete unfairly, sell a small batch of vaccines at a lower price on the condition to be an exclusive supplier, Putin said, speaking at a video meeting on measures to boost investment activity in Moscow.

"We see how competitors behave in the global vaccine market worth $100 billion. They come, sell a small batch of their vaccine at a discount, on the condition that everything else will be purchased only from this producer," he said.

To no one's astonishment the U.S. government is directly involved in manipulations of vaccine accessibility. As Brazil Wire found:

The US Department of Health and Human Services recently published its Annual Report for 2020.

“2020 was one of the most challenging years in the history of our country and in the history of the Department of Health and Human Services”, former US Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar introduces the report.

“There is an end to the pandemic in sight”, he continues, “with the delivery of safe and effective vaccines through Operation Warp Speed”.

Tucked away on page 48, the report shockingly reveals how the US pressured Brazil to reject Russia’s Sputnik V vaccine.

The HHS Annual Report is here. On page 5 it says:

Developing a strategy for supporting global vaccine access: HHS’s Office of Global Affairs (OGA) led the development of an interagency strategy, coordinated through the National Security Council, to provide international access to COVID-19 vaccines once domestic needs are met.

"Once domestic needs are met" is certainly not an altruistic or even reasonably prioritizing strategy one should be proud of. A sensible effort to save lives and to end the pandemic would prioritize risk groups in every country of this planet before inoculating people at home who have little risk of serious Covid-19 complications.

On page 47 the HHS report notes that the U.S. is coordinating with its Five Eyes spy partners on vaccine 'messaging':

Combating vaccine hesitancy globally: OGA leads a group of the Five Eyes countries (U.K., Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the United States) on vaccine confidence, aligning our nations’ efforts and sharing best practices to enhance vaccine confidence messaging globally.

One page on we learn what such communication entails:

Combatting [sic!] malign influences in the Americas: OGA used diplomatic relations in the Americas region to mitigate efforts by states, including Cuba, Venezuela, and Russia, who are working to increase their influence in the region to the detriment of US safety and security. OGA coordinated with other U.S. government agencies to strengthen diplomatic ties and offer technical and humanitarian assistance to dissuade countries in the region from accepting aid from these ill-intentioned states. Examples include using OGA’s Health Attaché office to persuade Brazil to reject the Russian COVID-19 vaccine, and offering CDC technical assistance in lieu of Panama accepting an offer of Cuban doctors.

"To persuade Brazil to reject the Russian COVID-19 vaccine" is, simply said, criminal behavior that has near genocidal consequences. Brazil is currently getting swamped with a more infectious variant of the SARS-CoV-2 virus and its medical institutions are near a breakdown:

“It feels like we’re putting a Band-Aid on a bullet wound,” said Eduarda Santa Rosa Barata, a 31-year-old infectologist who works in three ICUs in the north-eastern capital of Pernambuco state, all now stretched to the limit. “We’re engaged in damage reduction … You open new beds and they fill up immediately.”

A few days earlier, Barata had admitted a 37-year-old man who had no underlying medical conditions but whose lungs were so badly damaged he needed intubation. “It seems so random,” she said. “It’s a bizarre disease. It’s frightening.”
...
“Before the end of 2020, you’d get a family and one member would be infected but not the other three or four members, even though they lived in the same environment. You don’t see this any more. If there’s one confirmed case, everyone ends up getting infected by the virus,” he said. “It’s obvious that this new variant is now circulating among us.”

Panama, which under U.S. pressure rejected an offer from Cuba for medical support, has one of the highest death rates from Covid-19. That is one reason why its economy shrank by 18%.

The HHS report also speaks of Bolivia:

Opening Bolivia to health diplomacy: After decades of silence between the U.S. and Bolivia, OGA re-established health diplomatic relations with the Ministry of Health of Bolivia following national elections. Re-engaging allows the U.S. to strengthen ties in the region, which is important for influence in regional and multilateral fora, including the Pan American Health Organization.

What was "following national elections" in Bolivia was a fascist coup which produced repression and tyranny. The U.S. used its cooperation with the coup plotters  to influence other organizations.

Meanwhile the U.S. is also falsely stating that Russia is spreading vaccine disinformation. Following a Wall Street Journal piece planted by U.S. officials these claimed, without evidence, that Russia was sowing fear about the mRNA vaccines:

On Sunday, the Wall Street Journal reported that four publications, all serving as fronts for Russian intelligence, have targeted Western-produced COVID-19 vaccines with misleading coverage that exaggerates the risk of side effects and raises questions about their efficacy.

The State Department confirmed that report on Monday, saying U.S. officials had identified four Russian online platforms that were spreading disinformation about the COVID-19 vaccines.

However paragraph 21 of the original WSJ piece, coauthored by Iraq WMD propagandist Michael Gordon, acknowledged:

In each case, the Russian outlets were repeating actual news reports ,,,

The 'Russian outlets' repeated the news 'western' news agencies were distributing. It is nice though to see acknowledged that such is often disinformation.

There are some signs that the U.S. is coordinating with its spy partners to malign the very efficient Sputnik V vaccine. The British Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) recently put up a comment that warns of Russia's soft power gain through vaccine diplomacy especially in South America:

Sputnik V’s rapid foray into new markets in Latin America may indeed have longer-term implications in an area that has traditionally been the US’s backyard. Argentina gratefully received more than half a million doses in January. It served as an embassy of sorts for Sputnik V; reportedly, Argentinian delegations to Moscow in late 2020 translated reams of details into Spanish and shared these with Bolivia, Peru, Mexico, Uruguay and Chile to speed up their ability to decide. Bolivia’s first batch arrived at the end of January. By mid-February, Mexico received its first 200,000 doses. By mid-March, Brazil and Peru appeared close to sealing respective deals.

This is followed by musings about potential sabotage targets:

There are several factors that could make Sputnik V’s current bounce shortlived. The inability to deliver supplies quickly is an immediate one. Russia has acknowledged its production squeeze, raising doubts about its ability to honour its vaccine pledges. It is dependent on plants in the likes of Brazil, India and South Korea upholding good manufacturing practice and delivering at speed and scale on Moscow’s promise to provide hundreds of millions of quality vials quickly.

The piece closes with an ominous call to action:

The biomedical science of Sputnik V may well be genuinely welcome worldwide, once full data is available and has been appropriately interrogated. But the corresponding political ramifications of deeper and wider Russian influence globally may not be so beneficial. The UK and the US must not be blindsided to the full extent of Russian vaccine diplomacy already underway.

The U.S. efforts to prevent Russian vaccine distribution failed in Argentina where President Alberto Fernández has led an early and successful effort to introduce the Russian vaccine:

Amid plenty of public skepticism, Buenos Aires sent missions to Moscow in October and December 2020 to inspect data from the vaccine’s phase 3 trial.

An Argentine presidential aide said the delegation had translated hundreds of pages of information about the vaccine into Spanish—necessary for approval—which it later shared with other governments in the region, including Bolivia, Peru, Mexico, Uruguay, and Chile.

This is how, a day before the phase 3 results were published, trucks of Sputnik V shots were already trundling through Bolivia’s countryside. A photo of a delivery in a poultry truck draped in a Bolivian flag—a creative (and health department-approved) solution for cold storage requirements—went viral. Argentina began vaccinating with Sputnik this past December, meanwhile, and Mexico announced the purchase of 24 million Sputnik doses on Jan. 25.

U.S. efforts to dissuade countries from acquiring Sputnik V have not be fully successful. That again requires to launch a propaganda campaign to malign Sputnik V wherever it is distributed:

Maxim A. Suchkov @m_suchkov - 15:35 UTC · Mar 13, 2021

1. #Putin: "Global market for #COVID19 vaccines is worth $100 billion. We see how competitors of our producers behave: they enter a country [that is in need for vaccines], sell a small batch of vaccines on a discounted price but condition the sale with that...

2. "...the country will only purchase that vaccine from that producer in the future. So, there’s a real fight for the markets".

3. $100 billion is a big market. #Russia makes over $15 bln on arms sales (unofficial stats have it as high as $55 bln), about $25 bln for agricultural sales; around the same amount on gas sales (thou it depends on supplies), oil and oil products a little over than $100 bln.

4. So all of a sudden there’s this huge market and there’s heavy fight over it. @dimsmirnov175 cites an anonymous “source in the #Kremlin” who said that Russian intel services are aware that their foreign counterparts seek to launch a massive infowar against #Russia/n vaccines

5.The source reportedly said that soon there’ll be many reports over #Russia/n vaccines inefficiency & that they even health dangerous. Allegedly, even "staged cases of massive losses of human life after using Sputnik V will be propagated via @USAID, @georgesoros @thomsonreuters

6. The target audience for this campaign will be European countries who registered #SputnikV for their emergency use – #Hungary, #Slovakia, #Montenegro, #SanMarino and N.#Macedonia.

7. On a parallel track,#US & allies, according to the “Kremlin source” 'd release “investigations” about "incompetence of #Russia/n specialists in vaccination & immunology to halt their certification by @WHO, other relevant agencies, lower demand for RU vaccines from other countries

8. “The #Kremlin source” adds #US "aggressively promotes @pfizer, eyes to make sure US free of not only from the payment of possible compensation to citizens in lawsuits in the event of side effects, but also from liability for negligence of the direct manufacturer"

9.#SputnikV now world’s 2nd in terms of demand with 50+ countries having provided permit for its use. Struggle for markets in #Europe,#LatinAmerica,#Africa #Asia will get even bigger when we’ll [most likely] learn that vaccination is not a one time deal but a seasonal routine /END

PS.This chart is telling in the kinda tricks one may pull: #Russia's #SputnikV completed all the stages, but designers of the chart (1) put it at the bottom (2) don't use its product name (3) mark it with (*) caveating its effectiveness as if ABC "independently fact-checked" others


Source: ABCnews - bigger

Graphics like the above are only one example of media manipulations in support of 'western' vaccine 'diplomacy'. This is more than just arrogance:

The West's reaction was not exactly objective in August 2020 when Russia presented the world's first corona vaccine. Words like "vaccine muck from Moscow", "nasty vaccine propaganda", and accusations of "clumsy manipulations" of a "high-risk experiment on humans". Distrust, malice and suspicion were easier to find. One newspaper quipped that Sputnik V was effective not only against the virus, but also against "homosexuality as well as epilspsy and hives."

The Five Eyes, their intelligence agencies and friends are pulling all possible strings to win the markets for their vaccines. The continuous delaying of the official EU authorization for Sputnik V is obviously a part of this sabotage scheme.

That these efforts will keep people away from other good and available vaccines and that this will inevitably cost a number of them their lives, is seen as a reasonable price for gaining vaccine supremacy.

Posted by b on March 15, 2021 at 12:16 UTC | Permalink

Comments
« previous page

Tannenhouser @ 164, interesting! I notice that there is no mention so far of this paper at sites promoting vaccination that I visit. I rather assume some comments maybe are being censored, which is troubling on that issue as well. And perhaps, until the science is examined properly, we come full circle to the main point of the discussion linked by Jackrabbit @ 12, which is that with the initial rollout of vaccine compliance in Israel, recorded deaths from the virus did not go down but accelerated.

Suzan has pointed out that the vaccines do produce a vulnerable period, a lag time of five weeks, before their effect kicks in, which could allow the virus time to take advantage with mutations. I think we do know with the 'flu vaccines that frequently mutations have made it a game of catch up, so this isn't an unknown possibility -- it happens.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 17 2021 16:40 utc | 201

suzan @ 198

No one has provided links to evidence supporting his claims despite repeated requests

Try this, updated today, March 17th.

Sure, if you're convinced the guy is just some kind of money grubbing hack, nothing's going to work for you. After all, his line of reasoning is just that, a line of reasoning, even if he's highly qualified to make it, but yeah, he could even be wrong, and has said so himself.

As has been mentioned by others, a qualified scientific rebuttal to his claims has as far as I know not yet been forthcoming.

Why don't you give it a shot?

Posted by: john | Mar 17 2021 16:47 utc | 202

"Putin is a killer" according to Biden. And the "free world" shouldn't get the killer's vaccine? Taking revenge for the "Asad must go" curse?
It all looks more and more like a really bad SF dystopia.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 17 2021 17:06 utc | 203

India is now seeing larger number of cases too, after starting vaccination. They haven't open to tourism.
The only reason the UK's numbers have been going down is probably 1) that the peak had been passed and the numbers were going down by the end of january, and 2) the very strict lockdown, respected even more by the elderly, who are the first target of the virus and the first herd to receive the vaccine.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 17 2021 17:08 utc | 204

https://un-denial.com/2021/03/12/

Here again is the link to a very complete list of discussions on the subject of virus transmission questions which does give a presentation with slides from a March 1,2021 keynote address at a Vaccine summit entitled "Why Should Current Covid-19 Vaccines Not Be Used For Mass Vaccination During A Pandemic". The address is on youtube, but I could not find a link to it specifically -- but one can go to the site I link and scroll down a short way to listen to the presentation in audio with accompanying slides. This is more clinically addressed than the interviews we have looked at. I cannot say if it will satisfy specific scientific questions, and unfortunately the discussion afterwards is not here recorded.

There is also a Canadian link further down from this one. I am going to that one next.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 17 2021 17:42 utc | 205

Sorry, I omitted to say the Vaccine Summit was in Ohio.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 17 2021 17:43 utc | 206

Another possible explanation: when you vaccinate the medical staff and the elderly you reach the main populations who were transmitting, so that makes automatically the curve go down.
Just throwing some hypotheses...
In a place like the US where the density is not as high as Asia or European cities, it would make no sense that vaccination has made herd immunity so quickly.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 17 2021 17:46 utc | 207

Sorry, the Canadian link didn't work for me.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 17 2021 17:51 utc | 208

@ juliania | Mar 17 2021 16:40 utc | 201..... as i and others have asked @ 164 tannenhouser to provide a link to the doctors report - on the video, he said he listed it at linkedin, but no one appears to be able to find a copy of his report so far, including tannenhouser who tells us to read and address what it said... so, i do find this interesting in itself... it appears now that @ 202 john has now linked to it - not immediately obvious... thanks john.. i will read it...

as for the link @ 12 which you keep on coming back to with the jazz musician on israel - it was over a week ago on a different thread that a similar link and video was given by him which a few different posters including myself had challenged with regard to his comments on israel and the vaccination... i think there are some real holes in his argument, but i am not sure where to start in addressing them again as i haven't bothered to look at hislatest video @12 that he has come up with... i do find it interesting how certain videos appear to grab people's attention more then others.. that i find interesting..

Posted by: james | Mar 17 2021 17:58 utc | 209

@ 205 juliania... your link works for me and is fairly thorough.. it includes the paper that he mentioned he shared on linkedin...it also includes the rebuttal on the bottom that suzan had shared here yesterday... thanks...

Posted by: james | Mar 17 2021 18:02 utc | 210

Thanks james, 209,210 - I did my duck duck search on the Ohio presentation, found the pdf printout below:

https://sascha313.files.wordpress.com/2021/03/
concern_geert_vanden_bossche.pdf

It seems to contain a transcript of the Ohio keynote. Sorry if all this is too much; I just want to follow a discussion of these points as far as they lead. Transcript is helpful I think, but not being a scientist I will leave that analysis to others.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 17 2021 18:11 utc | 211

Apparently Biden has promised that as early as May the US will give 1 billion doses of the Johnson and Johnson (first developed in the EU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_%26_Johnson_COVID-19_vaccine)..
So the EU buys billions of Pfizer/Moderna, and the US buys a lot of EU too...
Now I think it is clear why the Russians and Chinese vax should be ostracized.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 17 2021 18:31 utc | 212

I hope it won't be too long before we start seeing WHO whistleblowers come forward.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 17 2021 20:52 utc | 213

In Germany too, cases raise in parallel to vaccination, despite the country still being under various sanitary measures
https://www.dw.com/en/covid-german-cases-are-growing-exponentially-again/a-56883181

Posted by: Mina | Mar 17 2021 21:02 utc | 214

@ 211 juliania...thanks.. i am getting an error message off your link.. i have yet to read the link john provided earlier, but i think it is probably the same paper @ 202.. was out fishing and enjoying nature... got back 1/2 hour ago... will look and see if i can comment, although i am not a scientist...

@ 214 mina.. i have been casually following the numbers on a few different countries in comparison to the numbers for canada.... germany and turkey were 2 countries that had a lower rate then canada, as did israel.... in the late fall israel number crept up to the point they have more cases and deaths per mil of the pop then canada.... germany was also much lower in terms of rates then canada, but also shot up and bypassed the numbers the past few months.. i was surprised by this too... turkey has remained more in check and has not gone up as much... saudi arabia is another country i have watched the numbers and they have remained low... the asian countries, including the philipines and indonesia have also remained unusually low... same deal inda.... so, it is a bit of a mystery to me why some countries are able to contain this more then the others... this is my non statistical observation... i like numbers, but am not a statistician...

Posted by: james | Mar 17 2021 23:12 utc | 215


@ Posted by: john | Mar 17 2021 16:47 utc | 202

“Why don't you give it a shot?”


His manuscript is riddled with unsound science. There are a few partial statements which do not negate human immunology as we understand it today, but on the whole it’s a jumble of misconceptions and wrong notions of how the human immune system functions. There are no citations and no evidence. A thought experiment grounded in made-up science.

Why don’t you give this a shot?

Open Forum on March 12th 2021
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-5pulnQmSM

Dr. Mobeen, bless his soul, says after patiently and open-mindedly dissecting a few sentences in Bossche’s manuscript which takes about forty minutes, after having watched his lecture and studied the manuscript, “Dude, did you just build your own science.”

Posted by: suzan | Mar 18 2021 1:17 utc | 216

“Dude did you just build your own science?” Dr. Mobeen on Geert Vanden Bossche!s justification for calling off mass vaccinations in a pandemic.

Posted by: suzan | Mar 18 2021 1:20 utc | 217

suzan @16, I didn't find that video convincing at all, and if you simply go to the comments there, you will see others giving the points I would have given, so I won't do that.

I did go to john's link (sorry mine didn't work for you, james) and it does impress me, but I am not a scientist so I don't know if I am missing sequences that would impress me if I knew virology. At this point, since that is all we have - the video you give suzan is also discussed at the link I gave earlier - he seems to be the only one doing that at this point. It's just very curious that there are not more reputable scientists arguing against this approach. I would say that is because it is so new. After all, it is not the first time the world has faced a pandemic, but it is the first time a pandemic has been attacked by a barrage of vaccines in this manner. Well, the evidence will come out with the impetus being, it seems, to proceed with the vaccines at this point. I'd suggest we have to sit back and watch as it will be hard to disagree if what is predicted turns out to be happening. I would wish it doesn't, but I guess we have to wait and see.

I think Herr Bossche has done his best for his genuine concern here to alert those who should be able to assess what he claims and act upon that assessment. I join those hoping for clarity on the subject even if it means we were wrong to get so agitated. Thanks to all.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 18 2021 3:44 utc | 218

suzan @ 216

Dr. Mobeen, bless his soul,...

Having premised your point of view with the assertion that Dr. Bossche is an "uneducated so-called specialist"(even though he's actually highly educated and has spent most of his career in an academic/medical environment) I find it pretty amusing that you're now presenting this Dr. Mobeen, who as far as I can tell practiced clinical medicine for a few years, before moving into software development and its marketing. In fact, he apparently resides in the heart of Silicon Valley.

Your biases are blatantly preconceived,...

but sure, it's enough to have vocal cords to express an opinion.

Posted by: john | Mar 18 2021 10:00 utc | 219

https://sebastianrushworth.com/2021/03/18/is-the-new-covid-variant-deadlier/
Despite the fact that the mortality has been overrated by hiding the fact that more than 50% who died from covid caught it either in care homes or in hospitals where they were treated for something else (or where they worked), one can be sure that with Ramadan starting mid April, the virus will manage to cover Muslim countries without any need for tourism. Planes are still functioning and people largely in denial since God cares for all...

Posted by: Mina | Mar 18 2021 10:35 utc | 220

In addition to the death of President John Magufuli's death there were 10 more deaths of prominent people in Tanzania:

Death robs Tanzania of 10 prominent persons in February

Vanessa Beeley thread

Is this a coincidence? Is this just a matter of Covid capitalism? Or is it because Tanzania rejected Covid-19 measures, rejected GM, wishes to play an active part in the BRI and is supportive of China?

IMO it's all part of Cold War 2.0 and by going along with Covid lockdown and vaccines we are willingly going along the path to internal oppression, a divided war, and (sooner or later*) war! We are witnessing the unfolding of a "Thucydides Trap" (the next 5-10 years will get worse as we progress towards war).

Posted by: ADKC | Mar 18 2021 10:42 utc | 221

War is very much on the agenda. After Navalny describing his prison as a 'concentration camp' we now have the French MSM going 24/7 on Syria is a 'concentration camp'.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 18 2021 11:33 utc | 222

I'm not deep in the Vanden Bossche thing but I did watch a bit of his interview with Phillip McMillan this morning. Looks like plenty of uploads available to watch - I didn't bookmark the one I downloaded, and credit to earlier posters here.

But here's one that matches my download and I've time stamped it to start at 11:25. This is where Vanden Boosche present the nub of his argument, namely that the vaccines are a brilliant achievement, but they're prophylactic, and to deploy prophylaxis in the heat of a pandemic makes it easy for the virus to escape the immune response of the newly vaccinated body, which is still in the early stage of mounting that response - in other words, it's a powerful weapon, being used in precisely the wrong circumstance:

Mass Vaccination in a Pandemic Benefits versus Risks Interview with Geert Vanden Bossche

You'll only need to watch for about 3 minutes while the doctor explains his concern. I find the logic very compelling, and I haven't seen any rebuttal of that logic so far (but I'm also not very deep in this discussion).

In other words, under the many minutes of interview and the transcripts and papers, there's one very clear and simple point that he's making. And that's the only point that needs rebuttal, because he actually praises the vaccines themselves. He simply says the deployment is wrong.

And why would we be surprised to find the institutional response to the coronavirus outbreak is wrong, yet again?

Posted by: Grieved | Mar 18 2021 14:53 utc | 223

@ Juliana & Grieved

Bossche’s argument hinges on an incorrect understanding of the human immune system. He assumes the innate immuniity is “overridden” by specific immunity. This is nonsense. This is what his entire argument relies upon. He has a few side-issue suggestions which make sense but are not connected to the larger issue, does mass vaccination in a pandemic provide benefit to the public?

In neoliberal societies and poor societies where individuals either are unable or refuse to protect themselves from disease exposure for the time period after vaccination when the specific immune system is being primed by the vaccine, about five weeks the data is showing for most f the vaccines, there is increased danger that mutations which will arise that will be more clever than otherwise would have been in the battle virus vs vaccine. As an advocate of curbing “human overreach” perhaps he’s playing a win win game subconsciously — but this is speculation neither here nor there.

With widespread Covid-2 predominance in populations, many replications and mutations will occur. Bossche is advocating based on his incomplete understanding of the human immune system functioning, ‘Let her rip.” This is potentially condemning many people to premature death and or unnecessary hardship resulting from myriad causes related to not stopping or even managing the pandemic.


@ John
You’ve not yet made a substantive comment in reply to my comments. You comment only on parts of my comments which have nothing to do with their substance — the pot calling the kettle black without cooking anything itself.

Posted by: suzan | Mar 18 2021 17:14 utc | 224

suzan @ 224

You’ve not yet made a substantive comment in reply to my comments

No, sister, you've not yet made a substantive comment, and you're the one challenging Bossche's assertions.

You've been provided with the bulk of Bossche's papers and videos on this issue. His plea for a scientific review of his data has been made public. As yet we haven't had an adequate rebuttal.

And yet you persist, saying now that Bossche's assertion that 'the innate immuniity is “overridden” by specific immunity' is "nonsense."

Well, maybe it is, but maybe you'd better prove it.

Posted by: john | Mar 18 2021 21:19 utc | 225

Yeah, take a jab of a non-approved experimental gene therapy being pushed by a guy who's top stated life's goal is to reduce the population of the world, made by a company that has been awarded total and complete immunity from any and all libaility.

Let me think about that for a moment.

Posted by: AlexP | Mar 18 2021 21:43 utc | 226

@ john

Actually, John, the burden of proof is on Bossche because the assertion on which his argument hinges contradicts accepted science. It has been rebutted by the few people willing to take the time to debunk popular viral video disinformation that sells.

It is Bossche's burden to provide evidence complete with citations to peer-reviewed studies o.s.v., which support his claim. He is the one "making up his own science" and expecting others who are short on time to stop and give him the time of day. Well, some have but it is evidently not what you want to hear.

I suppose it is possible that with the trend of the privatization of knowledge and the financialization & consequential patenting of health service sector products, Geert possesses some secret privatised knowledge to which only he is privy. Highly unlikely but possible. Nevertheless, the burden of proof lies with Bossche.

Thank you for this exchange.


Posted by: suzan | Mar 18 2021 23:16 utc | 227

Thank you, Grieved @ 223. What got my attention at first was the claim way back at Jackrabbit's post @ 12, which deals with what has been happening in Israel. The gentleman simply states that with half Israelis taking the vaccine, at the same time virus variants of a severe nature suddenly appeared,(as he says with no-one travelling so where from?) and deaths did not go down - they doubled.

It is that connection, the one between vaccine rollout and new variants that target younger people which caused a rethink on the part of Bossche, asking himself what is happening here? Apparently this shift to more virulent strains didn't happen with the 'natural' course of the 'Spanish' flu epidemic, which tapered off after the second wave, having no further recipients available. Bossche stresses that this virus is different, and that what is happening is new. So, of course his reasoning is breaking new ground.

He is speculating. But, if this is not what is happening, then what is? And his point is, yes, individuals WILL be protected against the form of the virus which the vaccine protects against, but meanwhile they are still shedding viral components, some of those possible mutations because where does the virus replicate itself? In us! We know that. We are its factory. And that fact, (that we are not killing it after being vaccinated, while in the early stages we shed it, as has been already noted when advice goes out about self isolating for so many weeks etc. etc.) means that vaccinating individuals on a large scale, as is happening, is also producing more virus, and more chances for it to mutate and move to other victims. (At one part of the transcript John provided Bossche even speculates that it could move into other animal hosts in a virulent form as well.)

He has so many points on which to focus. Suzan is concentrating on the exchange between natural resistance and the vaccine specific immunity for an individual, but for me that earlier point of how the severe variants suddenly appear in the population at large as vaccination is proceeding is the worrying one. It means on an individual level, okay, protection happens, but at the same time increased severity of mutations. Catch 22.

I read a description of difficulties in Australia that point to the increased transmissability factor -- it is most scary. Also the West Bank is having a crisis while Israel destroying vaccine that its own people do not want to take.

It's all very troubling. Maybe those isolation bracelets should be mandatory?

Posted by: juliania | Mar 18 2021 23:45 utc | 228

@juliana

The variants first found in the U.K., in SA, and in Brazil were recognized before vaccination began en mass. In the U.K., first found in September - October while vaccination began in nov-dec.

Posted by: suzan | Mar 19 2021 4:42 utc | 229

juliania

I'm done here as well, just wanted to thank you for your interest and hanging in there...

...on my way out, I'll post this rebuttal that I came across this morning. Nirenberg, who graduated a few years ago, is, like Bossche, an advocate of vaccines.

Clearly, the mass vaccination program is moving forward. The subliminal messaging on TV is rampant with images of needles piercing arms, and the ostracizing of resistors is coming to a head. I fear that in time we'll all have to take the plunge(r).

As we say here in Italy, speriamo bene.

Posted by: john | Mar 19 2021 10:25 utc | 230

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-weighs-longer-covid-lockdown-amid-exponential-rise/a-56924921
They just reopened a few things and it did the same effect as in Italy early who reopened early Feb.
https://apnews.com/article/europe-italy-coronavirus-pandemic-rome-christmas-a62d49c28fb0034c5b3450f19ef983a2

In France they announced a new type of lockdown for Paris and region + north of France and region, with a radius of 10 km as a limit for movements but no more restriction on the time you can spend outside. Of course, they don't want to lose some voters so they announced it yesterday for this weekend, and the train company proudly announces that all the trains are full for today.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/parisians-flee-capital-as-new-lockdown-looms/article/587200

I guess the bet is that at least those can go to regional hospitals in the areas where the hospitals are not yet flooded.
A doctor mentioned the fact he sees more people directly to IC rather than treated for covid. Apparently treatment is not a topic the MSM are allowed to address.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 19 2021 11:39 utc | 231

1) Is there a test showing that one has developed antibodies to COVID-19 naturally as it has passed through society and is therefore now COVID-immune? If so then then anyone passing such a test should be exempt from vaccination requirements.

2) If there is no such test, then citizens who do not want the vaccine should be given the option of submitting themselves to the live virus in a quarantine situation for a sufficient period of time to allow it to pass through their body so that they can be assumed to have developed natural antibodies and are now immune and exempt from vaccination requirements.

In other words, let me decide which risk I prefer to take: facing the virus with my own immune system or taking the rushed gene-therapy injection that bypasses my body's defense systems and turns it into a manufacturing plant for spike proteins (what could go wrong?). I'll take my immune system thank you along with some vitamin D. With access to medicines like ivermectin in the unlikely event I need them.

Posted by: Tim B | Mar 19 2021 12:44 utc | 232

suzan @ 229, yes, variants are what the virus does naturally. I think Bossche was worried that mass vaccination whilst this is ongoing means more exposure of those vaccinated to becoming an asymptomatic shedder since the virus is not eliminated from circulating and is very aggressive. It can move faster than the vaccination as far as using the vaccinated person as its host. I do agree with you that this is supposition. But it is supposition based on what Bossche was observing. To me it is worrying that his letter is being ignored. My conclusion is that everyone is hoping he is wrong ... well, I hope that too but I would like to have seen some discussion about it from other scientists. I guess they really don't know either, and don't want to 'queer' the desire to be protected.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 19 2021 15:08 utc | 233

Tim B @232, I think what we do is simply double mask when in enclosed areas other than our homes or closely grouped outside, follow increased care in our diets and whatever other suggestions we've encountered that will keep our immune systems healthy. That way we don't infect others - I have no idea if I am one of those longterm infected, or if at any moment the virus does an extra penetration attempt and succeeds. Best to think I could be and keep that mask on when encountering others. That's quarantine enough. No need to become a martyr.

There are enough folk who do resist vaccination to provide a test of whether Bossche's theories are correct, and they may not be. Follow your best inclination; he's done a good job of releasing his points into the public domain.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 19 2021 15:18 utc | 234

I made my own mask out of layered undershirt material that's old, so a good cotton fabric, with cotton striped material overtop - it fits well. Then I have a cotton fabric ear loop type one that goes underneath. (The home made one has ties.) The latter snugs my nose area, the former tucks way under my chin. Once those are in place, my breathing is not compromised but I can notice the humidity building up inside the mask, which tests show the virus doesn't appreciate.

I garden, and I have a lot of plants inside the house so the humidity is good there, even though I live in an arid area. We do get plenty of sun, so D is not a problem.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 19 2021 15:30 utc | 235

@ 230 john.... thanks for the link with rebuttal... it is quite good and everyone who watched Geert Vanden Bossche’s viewpoints in the video would benefit from reading it...

Posted by: james | Mar 19 2021 15:37 utc | 236

Parisians fleeing new lockdown by car.. and by air.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airports/cdg/departures

Posted by: Mina | Mar 19 2021 17:50 utc | 237

@ Posted by: Tim B | Mar 19 2021 12:44 utc | 232
I replied to hours ago to your post this am. It is now pm here. And it is not posted.

Short version — immunity to the so-called wild type will not necessarily protect you from evolving variants so you can be a carrier even if you think you are not. Depends on social circumstances.

Herd immunity cannot develop without vaccination programs while new variants are developing, necessitating updated vaccination with modified designer jab until the waves are suppressed which may take several more seasons. This is not what we want to hear. It nevrtheless may be the truth.

All the variants now threatening populations developed before mass vaccinations began.

Being immuneto the so-called wild type does not prevent against infections and transmission of the more aggressive variants that developed in the fall of 2020 so not a recognizable “immunity passport”

Posted by: suzan | Mar 19 2021 23:11 utc | 238

Thanks john @ 230 and james @ 236, but on the rebuttal the only points I could understand didn't seem worth making, as with the disagreement over what to call the virus. It wasn't a rebuttal that made easy reading for a nonscientist, so I cannot say whether it was truthful or not. If you understood it, james, perhaps in a further post when the subject comes up again you can explain it to me.

suzan, the variants seem to have begun to proliferate after the clinical trials had begun at least - I wasn't able to verify the claim that some increase co-relates with vaccine dispersal except for that claim at #12 of this thread.

I don't like to make the argument depend on the qualifications of the one making it, but I will note that on his twitter thread Niremburg posts that "... I am not a public health expert, nor an expert on COVID-19, pandemics generally, virology, infectious disease, or medicine." His claim is that he is rebutting Bossche on behalf of more credentialed scientists because they could not take time to answer obvious inaccuracies. I don't find that believable, sorry.

A final note, there are other letters from physicians in Europe and other places warning against launching the vaccines - so Bossche may be wrong in some aspects, but there isn't a universal agreement on this. For myself, I'm taking the advice lu lu mentioned from China that elderly people shouldn't be taking the vaccine at this point.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 20 2021 4:04 utc | 239

juliania

For myself, I'm taking the advice lu lu mentioned from China that elderly people shouldn't be taking the vaccine at this point

Yes, I concur, and in fact, if you take a gander at the stats you'll see that the Chinese, for all of their social cohesion, and technological tracking and treating prowess, and their generally good handling of the pandemic, are some of the least vaccinated on the planet. Hmmm...

Also, the president of Tanzania has taken a novel approach, that is, by claiming that covid has been eradicated and that as such no vaccine program is necessary.

Posted by: john | Mar 20 2021 11:34 utc | 240

@ 239 juliania.... although i thought the rebuttal was solid, i am not in a position to comment with authority as i don't have the proper background.... all it does for me is to raise more questions, or generally keep me in a state of ignorance.. i am sorry... being guided by intuition isn't enough here, but that is my intuition.. i do appreciate your diligence on this topic however as it motivates me as well.

@ 240 john... thanks.. i appreciate all of your posts as well and what you share here is again very interesting..

i have also enjoyed and appreciated @ suzans thoughtful commentary which i tend to share.. i suppose i am a bit of a skeptic on a lot of stuff, but once out of my own area of focus, it is hard to know if my skepticism interferes more then anything here...

Posted by: james | Mar 20 2021 16:48 utc | 241


@ Posted by: juliania | Mar 20 2021 4:04 utc | 239

”...the variants seem to have begun to proliferate after the clinical trials had begun at least - I wasn't able to verify the claim that some increase co-relates with vaccine dispersal...”

Another factor to consider is the prevalence of the virus in societies where the three variants we now are aware of evolved. Prevalence was high in all three societies. Both the U.K. and Brazil, as well as the USA, (B Johnson, J Bolsonaro, D Trump) initially had so-called herd immunity policies which allowed the virus to rip until health services were overwhelmed whereupon they were forced to take steps to save the overwhelmed heath-care services. I need not comment on the role neoliberal policies played into this crisis as it is obvious to all who are watching.

SA, being a low-income society, could not effectively slow viral spread or people would have been severely hardshipped (is that a word?), harmed, so they also underwent “let her rip” de facto policy but fortunately they have a very young demographic with active immune systems although still many cases and deaths.

This seems a bit of a catch-22. Bossche says let the virus reproduce uncontrolled, which we know means more opportunities for viable mutants to evolve; he also says don’t vaccinate in an pandemic. I guess that leaves societies that stopped the virus from the get go as the ones that should being doing vaccine trials and vaccinating their populations — except they are the least in need of protection and also with their low prevalence rates it would take years to accumulate trial data to confirm or deny vaccine safety and efficacy.

With 200 vaccines being developed and trialed, it is of course possible they have interacted with the evolving virus but we as of now don’t know if or how and with what consequences. Does this mean one should withdraw from the battle and allow come what may?


“For myself, I'm taking the advice lu lu mentioned from China that elderly people shouldn't be taking the vaccine at this point.”

This could be a wise decision for you as someone in her 80s if I am not mistaken. China has the luxury of this policy precisely because they stopped the virus in its early development.

It makes absolute sense to vaccinate young active people who have many contacts and are the most probable spreaders of disease; also older people usually have more health issues and a less responsive immune system . If older people have a strong support system, as it seems you have, being surrounded by people who are loving, aware and prudent, caring for your safety, then this is probably the best decision for you — until it isn’t.

I will take the vaccine I am offered when it is offered and hope for the best.

As an OT comment, thank you for your posting here. I have dipped into books and ideas I otherwise would have not. Thanks! It has filled out my year of seclusion which, as being on the introvert end of the scale, has been both welcomed and challenging.

Posted by: suzan | Mar 20 2021 20:57 utc | 242

Suzan, I don't believe Bossche says that we should allow the virus to reproduce uncontrolled, as you claim. There are many effective controls that will help contain the virus, such as lockdowns and masking, healthy foods to boost the immune system, and even many suggested interventions such as ivermectin and other medications that seem to deter the virus, as have been suggested here many times. It may be that a vaccine can be safe and worthwhile, but he's pointed out that the lag time on the ones available, plus that they are barely out of their preliminary testing stages, might make caution the operative path. I think his points on this are valid - whether his explanations of what is happening with the virus are, we will find out.

The controls that China and New Zealand used were drastic but effective. Other countries that followed those policies were able to contain and isolate the virus. It needs hosts to spread. The vaccines, even as well constructed as they have been in protecting individuals at least in the short term, do not do the same job - there are time lags which an opportunistic virus such as this one can exploit.

Maybe we need to go back to square one. Patience, people; that may be the only course at present. Lockdowns and masks.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 21 2021 17:20 utc | 243

Forgot to say, suzan, that your kind remarks are welcome, and that I similarly feel gratitude that you have begun the conversations I was hoping to have on this tricky subject. I think you do have some valid points, and it may be that the virus isn't as much enabled to mutate as Bossche claims, so that the vaccinations can be if carefully monitored a helpful adjunct to the masking and isolation of infection-spreaders. If we only use the positive tools available, and develop more harmony in their employment, we will beat this thing.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 21 2021 17:25 utc | 244

John @ 240 thanks, and thanks for your previous contributions here. I think the Tanzania results are a valid response, but we don't really know yet how even the countries faring well so far in their experiences with the virus will be affected as the new strains proliferate -- we have seen that China has had to be vigilant, New Zealand as well.

It's rather similar (I can't help myself) to how countries that base their economies on warmaking seem hellbent on continuing failed policies because they feel their lifeblood depends upon it. All out efforts must be carefully pursued to contain both (thanks, Grieved, for recent comments on that front.)

Posted by: juliania | Mar 21 2021 17:38 utc | 245

« previous page

The comments to this entry are closed.