Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 15, 2021

U.S. And Its Five Eye Partners Use 'Persuasion', Sabotage And Disinformation To Gain Vaccine Supremacy

The U.S. and some of its allies are engaged in efforts to malign the Russian Sputink V vaccine and to promote the more expensive mRNA vaccines produced by 'western' companies.

Back in November we warned that the vaccine competition would be ruthless:

The mRNA vaccines hyped in the U.S. media are simply too expensive to be used around the world. If we want to limit the global effects of the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic we will have to use the cheaper vector based vaccines.

That the AstraZeneka vaccine was immediately attacked in U.S. media by an unqualified writer quoting an investment bank and the U.S. pharma promoting (Remdesivir!) Antony Fauci is quite suspicious. Pfizer and Moderna expect to make billions of dollars with their vaccines. They will use all possible ways and means to defeat any potential competition.

Vladimir Putin, the President of Russia, recently noted how unfair competition practices are used to keep some vaccines away from nations who urgently need it:

Producers are struggling for the global vaccine market worth $100 billion, Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday.

Some producers compete unfairly, sell a small batch of vaccines at a lower price on the condition to be an exclusive supplier, Putin said, speaking at a video meeting on measures to boost investment activity in Moscow.

"We see how competitors behave in the global vaccine market worth $100 billion. They come, sell a small batch of their vaccine at a discount, on the condition that everything else will be purchased only from this producer," he said.

To no one's astonishment the U.S. government is directly involved in manipulations of vaccine accessibility. As Brazil Wire found:

The US Department of Health and Human Services recently published its Annual Report for 2020.

“2020 was one of the most challenging years in the history of our country and in the history of the Department of Health and Human Services”, former US Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar introduces the report.

“There is an end to the pandemic in sight”, he continues, “with the delivery of safe and effective vaccines through Operation Warp Speed”.

Tucked away on page 48, the report shockingly reveals how the US pressured Brazil to reject Russia’s Sputnik V vaccine.

The HHS Annual Report is here. On page 5 it says:

Developing a strategy for supporting global vaccine access: HHS’s Office of Global Affairs (OGA) led the development of an interagency strategy, coordinated through the National Security Council, to provide international access to COVID-19 vaccines once domestic needs are met.

"Once domestic needs are met" is certainly not an altruistic or even reasonably prioritizing strategy one should be proud of. A sensible effort to save lives and to end the pandemic would prioritize risk groups in every country of this planet before inoculating people at home who have little risk of serious Covid-19 complications.

On page 47 the HHS report notes that the U.S. is coordinating with its Five Eyes spy partners on vaccine 'messaging':

Combating vaccine hesitancy globally: OGA leads a group of the Five Eyes countries (U.K., Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the United States) on vaccine confidence, aligning our nations’ efforts and sharing best practices to enhance vaccine confidence messaging globally.

One page on we learn what such communication entails:

Combatting [sic!] malign influences in the Americas: OGA used diplomatic relations in the Americas region to mitigate efforts by states, including Cuba, Venezuela, and Russia, who are working to increase their influence in the region to the detriment of US safety and security. OGA coordinated with other U.S. government agencies to strengthen diplomatic ties and offer technical and humanitarian assistance to dissuade countries in the region from accepting aid from these ill-intentioned states. Examples include using OGA’s Health Attaché office to persuade Brazil to reject the Russian COVID-19 vaccine, and offering CDC technical assistance in lieu of Panama accepting an offer of Cuban doctors.

"To persuade Brazil to reject the Russian COVID-19 vaccine" is, simply said, criminal behavior that has near genocidal consequences. Brazil is currently getting swamped with a more infectious variant of the SARS-CoV-2 virus and its medical institutions are near a breakdown:

“It feels like we’re putting a Band-Aid on a bullet wound,” said Eduarda Santa Rosa Barata, a 31-year-old infectologist who works in three ICUs in the north-eastern capital of Pernambuco state, all now stretched to the limit. “We’re engaged in damage reduction … You open new beds and they fill up immediately.”

A few days earlier, Barata had admitted a 37-year-old man who had no underlying medical conditions but whose lungs were so badly damaged he needed intubation. “It seems so random,” she said. “It’s a bizarre disease. It’s frightening.”
...
“Before the end of 2020, you’d get a family and one member would be infected but not the other three or four members, even though they lived in the same environment. You don’t see this any more. If there’s one confirmed case, everyone ends up getting infected by the virus,” he said. “It’s obvious that this new variant is now circulating among us.”

Panama, which under U.S. pressure rejected an offer from Cuba for medical support, has one of the highest death rates from Covid-19. That is one reason why its economy shrank by 18%.

The HHS report also speaks of Bolivia:

Opening Bolivia to health diplomacy: After decades of silence between the U.S. and Bolivia, OGA re-established health diplomatic relations with the Ministry of Health of Bolivia following national elections. Re-engaging allows the U.S. to strengthen ties in the region, which is important for influence in regional and multilateral fora, including the Pan American Health Organization.

What was "following national elections" in Bolivia was a fascist coup which produced repression and tyranny. The U.S. used its cooperation with the coup plotters  to influence other organizations.

Meanwhile the U.S. is also falsely stating that Russia is spreading vaccine disinformation. Following a Wall Street Journal piece planted by U.S. officials these claimed, without evidence, that Russia was sowing fear about the mRNA vaccines:

On Sunday, the Wall Street Journal reported that four publications, all serving as fronts for Russian intelligence, have targeted Western-produced COVID-19 vaccines with misleading coverage that exaggerates the risk of side effects and raises questions about their efficacy.

The State Department confirmed that report on Monday, saying U.S. officials had identified four Russian online platforms that were spreading disinformation about the COVID-19 vaccines.

However paragraph 21 of the original WSJ piece, coauthored by Iraq WMD propagandist Michael Gordon, acknowledged:

In each case, the Russian outlets were repeating actual news reports ,,,

The 'Russian outlets' repeated the news 'western' news agencies were distributing. It is nice though to see acknowledged that such is often disinformation.

There are some signs that the U.S. is coordinating with its spy partners to malign the very efficient Sputnik V vaccine. The British Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) recently put up a comment that warns of Russia's soft power gain through vaccine diplomacy especially in South America:

Sputnik V’s rapid foray into new markets in Latin America may indeed have longer-term implications in an area that has traditionally been the US’s backyard. Argentina gratefully received more than half a million doses in January. It served as an embassy of sorts for Sputnik V; reportedly, Argentinian delegations to Moscow in late 2020 translated reams of details into Spanish and shared these with Bolivia, Peru, Mexico, Uruguay and Chile to speed up their ability to decide. Bolivia’s first batch arrived at the end of January. By mid-February, Mexico received its first 200,000 doses. By mid-March, Brazil and Peru appeared close to sealing respective deals.

This is followed by musings about potential sabotage targets:

There are several factors that could make Sputnik V’s current bounce shortlived. The inability to deliver supplies quickly is an immediate one. Russia has acknowledged its production squeeze, raising doubts about its ability to honour its vaccine pledges. It is dependent on plants in the likes of Brazil, India and South Korea upholding good manufacturing practice and delivering at speed and scale on Moscow’s promise to provide hundreds of millions of quality vials quickly.

The piece closes with an ominous call to action:

The biomedical science of Sputnik V may well be genuinely welcome worldwide, once full data is available and has been appropriately interrogated. But the corresponding political ramifications of deeper and wider Russian influence globally may not be so beneficial. The UK and the US must not be blindsided to the full extent of Russian vaccine diplomacy already underway.

The U.S. efforts to prevent Russian vaccine distribution failed in Argentina where President Alberto Fernández has led an early and successful effort to introduce the Russian vaccine:

Amid plenty of public skepticism, Buenos Aires sent missions to Moscow in October and December 2020 to inspect data from the vaccine’s phase 3 trial.

An Argentine presidential aide said the delegation had translated hundreds of pages of information about the vaccine into Spanish—necessary for approval—which it later shared with other governments in the region, including Bolivia, Peru, Mexico, Uruguay, and Chile.

This is how, a day before the phase 3 results were published, trucks of Sputnik V shots were already trundling through Bolivia’s countryside. A photo of a delivery in a poultry truck draped in a Bolivian flag—a creative (and health department-approved) solution for cold storage requirements—went viral. Argentina began vaccinating with Sputnik this past December, meanwhile, and Mexico announced the purchase of 24 million Sputnik doses on Jan. 25.

U.S. efforts to dissuade countries from acquiring Sputnik V have not be fully successful. That again requires to launch a propaganda campaign to malign Sputnik V wherever it is distributed:

Maxim A. Suchkov @m_suchkov - 15:35 UTC · Mar 13, 2021

1. #Putin: "Global market for #COVID19 vaccines is worth $100 billion. We see how competitors of our producers behave: they enter a country [that is in need for vaccines], sell a small batch of vaccines on a discounted price but condition the sale with that...

2. "...the country will only purchase that vaccine from that producer in the future. So, there’s a real fight for the markets".

3. $100 billion is a big market. #Russia makes over $15 bln on arms sales (unofficial stats have it as high as $55 bln), about $25 bln for agricultural sales; around the same amount on gas sales (thou it depends on supplies), oil and oil products a little over than $100 bln.

4. So all of a sudden there’s this huge market and there’s heavy fight over it. @dimsmirnov175 cites an anonymous “source in the #Kremlin” who said that Russian intel services are aware that their foreign counterparts seek to launch a massive infowar against #Russia/n vaccines

5.The source reportedly said that soon there’ll be many reports over #Russia/n vaccines inefficiency & that they even health dangerous. Allegedly, even "staged cases of massive losses of human life after using Sputnik V will be propagated via @USAID, @georgesoros @thomsonreuters

6. The target audience for this campaign will be European countries who registered #SputnikV for their emergency use – #Hungary, #Slovakia, #Montenegro, #SanMarino and N.#Macedonia.

7. On a parallel track,#US & allies, according to the “Kremlin source” 'd release “investigations” about "incompetence of #Russia/n specialists in vaccination & immunology to halt their certification by @WHO, other relevant agencies, lower demand for RU vaccines from other countries

8. “The #Kremlin source” adds #US "aggressively promotes @pfizer, eyes to make sure US free of not only from the payment of possible compensation to citizens in lawsuits in the event of side effects, but also from liability for negligence of the direct manufacturer"

9.#SputnikV now world’s 2nd in terms of demand with 50+ countries having provided permit for its use. Struggle for markets in #Europe,#LatinAmerica,#Africa #Asia will get even bigger when we’ll [most likely] learn that vaccination is not a one time deal but a seasonal routine /END

PS.This chart is telling in the kinda tricks one may pull: #Russia's #SputnikV completed all the stages, but designers of the chart (1) put it at the bottom (2) don't use its product name (3) mark it with (*) caveating its effectiveness as if ABC "independently fact-checked" others


Source: ABCnews - bigger

Graphics like the above are only one example of media manipulations in support of 'western' vaccine 'diplomacy'. This is more than just arrogance:

The West's reaction was not exactly objective in August 2020 when Russia presented the world's first corona vaccine. Words like "vaccine muck from Moscow", "nasty vaccine propaganda", and accusations of "clumsy manipulations" of a "high-risk experiment on humans". Distrust, malice and suspicion were easier to find. One newspaper quipped that Sputnik V was effective not only against the virus, but also against "homosexuality as well as epilspsy and hives."

The Five Eyes, their intelligence agencies and friends are pulling all possible strings to win the markets for their vaccines. The continuous delaying of the official EU authorization for Sputnik V is obviously a part of this sabotage scheme.

That these efforts will keep people away from other good and available vaccines and that this will inevitably cost a number of them their lives, is seen as a reasonable price for gaining vaccine supremacy.

Posted by b on March 15, 2021 at 12:16 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Mr. Haassaan

If you were suffering from excruciating dental pain, you would very much look for a dentists trained to use the best that MIC could offer.

Put differently, Africans are free of this Medical Industrial Complex, its corruption, and its malignant influence. Using natural healing methos, has left so many of them with missing teeth before age 40.

But, at least, they are living a low carbon diet, subsit on a lean healthy diet, conveniently die from conditions that could be ameliorated by the application of cheap MIC techniques, and best of all, they live in a non-imperialist country.

Posted by: Fyi | Mar 16 2021 3:40 utc | 101

Mr. Debsisdead

Uighurs are not Han.

They are Muslim citizens of the Chinese state.

Their culture partakes of some elements of the Persianate cukture and civilization but lies, like Chechens, outside of it.

Posted by: Fyi | Mar 16 2021 3:44 utc | 102

Thank you, JB @ 91 --- people, please please watch that video! It is not about personal safety in taking this or that vaccine, it is about helping the virus mutate!! The scientist gives very understandable reasons his hair is on fire, because he says one does not treat a pandemic with these vaccines because with the time lag on how soon they make a person immune to the virus there is within that time period time for the person vaccinated to shed virus and thereby assist in creating stronger viral action, which is what happened in Israel when after they started the intensive vaccine program their deaths DOUBLED. And the second reason not to vaccinate is that, according to the doctor we are suggesting you notice - replacing one's natural immunity with immunity given to you by the vaccines will mean that in the case of other corona viruses you will be vulnerable as you haven't been in your lives before because you only now have the immunity cells of this specific virus.

Now, no one in these clinical studies is saying the vaccine won't work against the virus it targets, but those two things, plus the original linked study @ 12 point to why the virus is increasing in toxicity. So James, don't badmouth JB. Nobody has refuted these claims! And if they are true, we are in serious trouble!

Posted by: juliania | Mar 16 2021 3:44 utc | 103

Mr. Jackrabbit

The effects of self-isolation or lack thereof have been empirically observed Iran. Infections & deaths went up when self-isolation was ignored.

Posted by: Fyi | Mar 16 2021 3:49 utc | 104

@103 juliania

james wasn't bad-mouthing JB for the content he posted, but for the fact that he didn't know that several posts throughout this very thread have already pointed, approvingly and with equally strong recommendations, to vaccine specialist Geert Vanden Bossche and his ideas.

In other words, JB hadn't read the thread. And this is quite excusable in all commenters, unless they actually attack the thread and all its commenters, very dramatically, for not paying attention to gold when it's offered.

In that case, it becomes death by mortal irony.

Posted by: Grieved | Mar 16 2021 3:59 utc | 105

Ms. Juliana

Infections have been going down very strongly in Israel as more and more people have been vaccinated.

Posted by: Fyi | Mar 16 2021 4:15 utc | 106

suzan @ 98, apologies, I had missed your question:

Where is the science that says one’s innate immune system is overridden after one’s specific immune system has been triggered through disease exposure or vaccination? This is the assumption on which Geert Vanden Bossche’s argument relies.

I would like to see some argument on that question myself. And at this point no one has made such an argument as you propose here. The gentleman is however strongly suggesting that this virus having such new aggressive strategies to combat it being in itself so aggressive, would thereby be replacing the natural immune system. I am remembering that he compared the two by saying that the natural immune system is non specific, and that is its ability to defend against whatever the attack may be if it is healthy. So, at the same time as we may pose your question, we ought to ask if the opposite is true, and I think we don't know. Too big a gamble to take, I would say.

My question after listening to the speakers at #12 link was, how is what we know has happened in Israel possible, that the virus gets more virulent while the vaccines are being given? Herr Vanden Bossche's argument gives the answer, in that the lag time is what is causing this mutation.

Thank you for asking the question. And if it has been answered to defeat the argument, I would like to know that.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 16 2021 4:18 utc | 107

suzan, I went to a page (which I will link to next) which gives the arguments we are discussing here, and the following is an excerpt from it:


A vaccine is not like a drug that is eventually expelled by your body. A vaccine permanently reprograms your immune system software. Because of this, the precautionary principle is critical.
What are the problems with the current vaccination plan?
Mass vaccinations, in the middle of a pandemic, which do not kill the virus, and which keep the recipient healthy and thus less prone to spread the virus, will apply strong selection pressure to the virus for mutations that both evade the vaccine AND make people sicker.
If more deadly variants of the virus emerge we will not be able to outrace them with new vaccines. In other words, if we inadvertently create a more deadly variant, we have no exit plan.
Why did Bossche become alarmed, and why is he speaking up so late in the game?
Bossche’s studies of pandemic history suggest it is very unusual for more virulent strains to emerge late in a pandemic. When more virulent strains were reported in late 2020 he became concerned and suspected that our lock-down policies may have encouraged the virus to mutate. Then he thought about the implications of broadly vaccinating both healthy and unhealthy people and decided to pull the fire alarm.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 16 2021 4:35 utc | 108

@96 dogon priest... thanks.. ditto!

it's a bit odd how john can make a post @ 68 with the link to the video "Mass Vaccination in a Pandemic - Benefits versus Risks: Interview with Geert Vanden Bossche", followed up by @ 85 ted01 - same video ( thanking john and acknowledging his link!) followed by @ 89 julianna thanking them both! and then someone named JB comes along and tells us to watch the same video, LOLL! why i do get the impression this is an important video i am supposed to watch? LOLOL!

so, i make a comment on psychology instead... and fortunately @ 105 grieved and dogon priest see this too!

@ julianna, when i am finished with my copy of brothers karamazov i am going to give it to you! it will have a few repeat sections in it so you can read the same section a few more times! apparently the book isn't long enough as it is! and as a bonus you can have a copy of gilad atzmon - a jazz musician no less - who did the video @ 12 you liked so much - here playing scarborough fair! enjoy! for those who don't care if others don't read others comments! count me out, lolol!

i would be remiss if i didn't thank john for bringing it to my attention as well!

Posted by: james | Mar 16 2021 4:46 utc | 109

Here is the link to the site I quoted above:

https://un-denial.com/2021/03/12/
dr-geert-vanden-bossche-on-vaccination-policy-risks/

[I separated the entire link, so as not to disturb the thread.]

Posted by: juliania | Mar 16 2021 4:56 utc | 110

Sorry to upset you, James.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 16 2021 4:59 utc | 111

sorry to be so sarcastic julianna... you didn't upset me btw... i am just being a joker.. cheers james..

Posted by: james | Mar 16 2021 5:10 utc | 112

re Fyi @ #102 who appears to have pointlessly stated "Mr. Debsisdead Uighurs are not Han."

And... whereabouts did I infer Uigurs were Han? I did however refer to Uighurs as Chinese, which they most certainly are, as they are citizens of China.
Or are you some sort of racist who believes only Han people can be citizens of China. Is that your same claim in Iran, that the only those who are Persian/Farsi people are the legitimate citizens of Iran; that Azerbaijani, Turkmen, Qashqai & jews all of whom's families, forbears in fact, have lived within the borders of Iran for many centuries, are not Iranian? If so your assertions contradict the public statements of both political & religious leaders of Iran.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Mar 16 2021 5:43 utc | 113

it clearly shows the sabotage is proof that sputnik v is the better if not the best vaccine. the more the west shuts it out from the market through malign tactics, the more people like me will demand and search for it.

Posted by: andrewweed | Mar 16 2021 6:03 utc | 114

re vk | Mar 15 2021 23:36 utc | 86

Quotes the CPC: "West ‘weaponizes’ vaccines to divide world aimed at maintaining hegemony"

BUT they themselves: China to allow travellers only if they have taken Chinese vaccines


Posted by: Antonym | Mar 16 2021 7:52 utc | 115

good news from China..at least we know how to get a safe vaccine now...it will boom their tourism industry

Posted by: Mina | Mar 16 2021 8:24 utc | 116

The cause of AZ fall?

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41587-020-00804-4

Posted by: Mina | Mar 16 2021 8:40 utc | 117

Mina | Mar 16 2021 8:24 utc | 118
You are definitely on the right track.

The 3 Chinese vaccines are all of the inactivated type (inactivated vaccines use the killed version of the germ that causes a disease). The sort we are all familiar with, known technology that has been around for decades, so definitely the 'safer' option (my opinion only).

Sinopharm (Beijing)BBIBP-CorV /Sinopharm (Wuhan)Inactivated (Vero Cells)/Sinovac CoronaVac

Gamaleya Sputnik V & Oxford/AstraZeneca AZD1222 are of 'non replicating viral vector' type - no thanks.

mRNA types - take this at your own peril.

Vaccine Tracker

For the US readers - Sinovac CoronaVac approved for use in Mexico.

Listen to what Geert Vanden Bossche has to say & see if there is a coherent rebuttal from a suitably qualified scientist, or just wait for the character assassination.

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 16 2021 9:21 utc | 118

edit: Mina | Mar 16 2021 8:24 utc | 116

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 16 2021 9:37 utc | 119

A cluster in a French hospital (in a region with very low number of cases)
showing yet a new variant, detectable only via serology and not by PCR.
But we can continue to pay billions for an apartheid type of herd immunity.
https://www.leparisien.fr/societe/sante/covid-19-un-variant-breton-identifie-a-lannion-des-investigations-en-cours-15-03-2021-E7J5FM6RHREZHGDNKOBKSEZDHI.php

Posted by: Mina | Mar 16 2021 10:22 utc | 120

How is that legal??
https://www.nihr.ac.uk/news/first-childrens-covid-19-vaccine-trial-open/26870

Posted by: Mina | Mar 16 2021 10:23 utc | 121

@ JB (91)

Thank you for the link, I agree that people should be aware of this stuff. I found the host very annoying so I am posting the original video as an alternative for people who don't need the extra (and sometimes dodgy) explanations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJZxiNxYLpc&t=2128s

For people who have not seen this, it is an interview with a high level vaccine developer who is alarmed at the current vaccine programme and believes it to be very dangerous. The video posted by JB might be better for people who would prefer more explanation.

Posted by: MarkU | Mar 16 2021 11:17 utc | 122

Even more difficult to point the culprit when you have a combination of factors:
Raoult says Remdesivir treatment leads to more variants
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/remdesivir-et-apparition-de-variants/
(i can't find any English article reporting on that)

All the vaccines have been linked to clotting problems (it is the main killing effect of covid itself, so it might be a dosage issue??)
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/08/health/immune-thrombocytopenia-covid-vaccine-blood.html

and what of the use of immune serum that Raman Gangakhedkar pointed out?

Posted by: Mina | Mar 16 2021 11:27 utc | 123

The "new" UK variant now spreading faster in France, Italy, Germany. They call it a "3rd wave".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScwlosfxSg
What a joke. It was detected back in September (that's how "new" it is) and the next thing was to call all wealthy Europeans (not the owner of BS jobs obviously) to save the economy and travel for holidays, ski in Switzerland etc and the whole thing spread over the Xmas holidays.
They just let it spread, each time.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 16 2021 11:51 utc | 124

What's the evidence that the WSJ piece was "planted by US officials"?

Posted by: orca_life | Mar 16 2021 12:34 utc | 125

Ted01 @118:

I took a glance at the number of products being tested etc...
How is it possible to have phase 3 clinical trials in under one year?
It seems that much of this is "faith based" and not very scientific at all....

Posted by: Chevrus | Mar 16 2021 12:44 utc | 126

to all: Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful comments and links. It's fine by me that you don't all agree - so turns the world. Thanks for some lovely prose.

Now: once again, b has taken down my post concerning chile and a remark made by clueless joe that "chile is doing great." chile has in fact injected a large number of people mostly with the pfitzer modi-thingee and also some with sinovac. However, the number of cases remains at the highest level it has been since the worst of last year. This is simply a fact - it is not controversial or accusatory. The fact is that +/- 90% of the country is in quarantine or extremely restricted modes. The injections started in early feb. 2021, so???? I am not skilled at links but hopefully this will work. Check it out for yourself. www.24horas.cl
Also for daily news... www.emol.cl
b, I don't know why you delete me... it strikes me as kind of rude and hurtful. We all listened to circe ranting for months. Am I worse than that?

Posted by: Miss Lacy | Mar 16 2021 13:10 utc | 127

I want to thank the many posters that I've been reading. It's good to make such information available to as many people as possible. We know the effect of 12 months of fearmongering - it suppresses rational thinking. Anything that can get these brainwash victims out of their zombie state and thinking again can only do good.

Any good news is appreciated. In Canada, we are witnessing most of the population lose their minds. It's likely already a losing battle to save them. I won't waste time writing about mRNA vaccines. In my mind they are a Stupid Test. Allow that toxic mix into your body and you passed the test, you are clinically Stupid!

The one issue that puzzles me is in regard to the Russian/Chinese vaccines. I have read that Covid 19 has never been isolated. If that is the case, then it cannot be proven to exist. Which begs the question: how can you make a vaccine for something that hasn't been isolated?

Besides that, I can only hope that intelligent people continue to look for objective evidence to determine what is really happening. Such as 2020 death totals being on average. Which proves there is no pandemic. How can it be a pandemic when no one dies? Apparently where I live that is the new reality. After one year my county has recorded zero covid deaths. That hasn't stopped the mad rush to get the Pfizer vaccine. Thus I'll be interested to see how many covid deaths we've had by the end of May.

My fear is that the real pandemic is yet to come and will be man made thanks to mRNA technology. Having seen the destruction that fear causes, I am not going into hiding, nor am I treating vaccinated people as diseased individuals. Being a positive person, I'll take the position that all mRNA damage will be internally contained and there will be no "second" pandemic. Worst case scenario, I suspect it won't be long before I'm forced into hiding and I'm the one treated like a diseased individual. Which may be in my best interest!

Posted by: EoinW | Mar 16 2021 13:23 utc | 128

Its interesting to note that these adversaries all have a vaccine, except for the latest Russian old tech one they all use spike proteins or mRNA. None of them have any issues with jabbing everyone, the only discourse is about who will get to sell the most.

Just watched a video with excerpts of a world renowned vaccine specialist, he says these vaccines will probably be a disaster, both now and into the future, and very interesting physiologically as he explains why. He is pro vaxxer, always has been, worked with Gates and GATI. Watch if interested.
Geert Vanden Bossche

Posted by: Gravel Rash | Mar 16 2021 13:39 utc | 129

Mr. Debsisdead

My intent was to maintain clarity of language - I have never read anyone using the phrase: "Tibetan Chinese" or "Korean Chinese" or "Manchu Chinese".

When Chinese use the equivalent word "Chinese" then y mean Han.

As for Iran, you do not understand Iran. Iran was a religion that became a country not a people - unlike Rus, which were a people who became a country.

The appellation Iran does not refer to a people but to a myth.

Posted by: fyi | Mar 16 2021 13:49 utc | 130

They'd rather give free popcorn to all
https://swprs.org/the-vaccine-conundrum/

Posted by: Mina | Mar 16 2021 13:49 utc | 131

https://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/9/406107/World/International/Covid-deaths-in-Europe-pass-,-AFP-tally.aspx
Asia recorded 3 times less dead than Europe, although it is ten times more populated.
https://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/9/406124/World/International/Moderna-announces-start-of-Covid-vaccine-trials-fo.aspx
what kind of consent do they get from a 6 month old?

Posted by: Mina | Mar 16 2021 14:00 utc | 132

@MarkU (122)

Thank you for paying attention and for the original interview.

By all means, everyone should use the link you posted, because the host in "my" link is very annoying.

Posted by: JB | Mar 16 2021 14:03 utc | 133

Good overview by Raoult, who end up quoting Chomsky, 'Manufacturing consent'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES1yLnsfVF4

Posted by: Mina | Mar 16 2021 14:19 utc | 134

...
The MIC (medical industrial complex) is one of the pillars our corporate fascist system is built upon. Like all big corporate entities, it has been taken over by the financiers subjugating the doctors and other experts in the field to a secondary role. In such conditions "science" is often determined by what is profitable short term. Self-care gets treated with derision because it empowers the individual at the expense of corporate profits even though self-care...the knowledge of one's own body, and what that body needs to thrive...is the foundation of living healthy, long and pain free.

Posted by: Haassaan | Mar 16 2021 3:32 utc | 100

Couldn't let that remark pass without comment...
That's a result of Think Big Syndrome. I first came across that mindset in the early '60s in a book by Napoleon Hill called Think And Grow Rich. His 'philosophy' was that the only thing that'll make you rich is an good IDEA. i.e. don't worry if you left school at 14 and don't have a Uni Degree. If you need someone with a degree to advance your dream, you can hire one. There's a going rate, they're not expensive, and they like having a job.

In the same vein, also in the 1960s, I recall an interview with the world's top-performing Life Assurance Salesman one year. The interviewer asked him "Were you just lucky?"
"No" replied the winner, "I've got a formula."
"Is it a secret formula?"
"Certainly not, I tease out all their hopes and dreams for the future and build a gigantic bonfire under them. It works every time."

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 16 2021 15:06 utc | 135

China has already vaccinated almost 65 million people by March 15, 2021 .

Yet, according to this ABC "independently fact-checked" vaccine graph in b's post, Chinese vaccine (Sinopharm's 2 vaacines, Sinovax, CanSino Bio) still had not submitted their authorisation application!

Just how ridiculous ABCnews is with this type of misinformation propaganda! Trump has one thing correct about MSM: they are fake news.

Posted by: lulu | Mar 16 2021 16:02 utc | 136

BUT they themselves: China to allow travellers only if they have taken Chinese vaccines

Posted by: Antonym @115
----------------------------

Stop spewing the garbage from Indian media!

Take a good look at How an American guy who just flew back to China.

The latest requirements for any travelers to flight in China:

1. PRC test and Anti-body test: The test results must be negative;
2. One more PRC test at the custom once arrive at Chinese airport;
3. 14-day quarantine.

Posted by: lulu | Mar 16 2021 16:21 utc | 137

When you live in a social system that has global private finance at its core, what do you expect?
The West is proud of its barbarism and flaunts its lie/cheat/steal mentality. by: psychohistorian @ 16

Maybe your statement should read =>when you live in a global private finance system, that licenses controlled socialization <=you should expect barbarism and criminal mentality from the profit seekers and docile fearful sheep mentality from the quivering governed?

all for the sake of protecting pharma profits. Absurd. by: Kapusta @ 76

EoinW @ 128 says "My fear is that the real pandemic is yet to come" Hum, a test run and a data gathering plan to determine how to force coordination of the different institutions and political systems in the different nation states to a standardize conformed set of rules. Push the button and the parrots all issue the same garbage.

I agree with every body, take any mRNA virus with great caution.. 30 b


The official in charge of the vaccine’s production said the research and development process began last March and it involved cell culture, inoculation, proliferation, isolation, purification, in activation and formulation and it was tested on more than 650 animals from different species of mice, rabbits, guinea pigs and monkeys.
name of the new vaccine is Fakhra Covid-19

Posted by: snake | Mar 16 2021 16:40 utc | 138

When Chinese use the equivalent word "Chinese" then y mean Han.

fyi @ 130
-----------

I am Chinese, and when we say Chinese we mean all the 56 ethnic groups, which include Han, Tibetan, Uyghurs, Zhuang, Yi, Hui, Bai, Miao, Mongols, Koreans, Kazakhs, Russians, etc. who live within China's border.

It is the foreigners, like you, who often equal Chinese only to Han Chinese, and then project their views back onto us Chinese.

Different to Western nation state, China is a civilisation state .

Posted by: lulu | Mar 16 2021 16:50 utc | 139

@ Posted by: juliania | Mar 16 2021 4:35 utc | 108


The author you quote re Geertz’s opinion, Rob Mielcarski, is a retired systems software developer and hi-tech executive.

Geertz Vander Bossche is certified in veterinary science, an independent vaccine consultant and the managing director of Vareco, an entrepreneurial executive, also someone who once worked for Gates, another uneducated so-called specialist in human medicine scientific method and inquiry.

I would not halt mass vaccination against a virus which has killed over 500,000 in your country alone based on the words of someone who has not published a paper for 25 years.

Bossche has an emotional appeal that grabs and sells, especially to a weary, traumatized public in the midst of a perhaps manufactured but real pandemic.

People are fed up with being manipulated, exploited and looted by the global top 0.01% but that is no reason to listen to unqualified persons who offer an emotional alternative narrative that feeds into the anger and frustration, perhaps yielding a personal fortune $$$. Word is he has his own vaccine patent, I dunno — look him up at vaxipedio dot org

Similarly while GiAtzmon, a jazz musician, seems to have noble intentions, I do not believe he is qualified to asses the data he talks about, leaving much out, crying out fearfully without valid scientific substance before enough time had elapsed post mass vaccination in Israel with Pfizer-BioNTech to make a sound analysis— out of ignorance perhaps, or perhaps justified fear. Another emotional appeal without foundational substance but well intentioned (bias here toward jazz musicians).

We are guinea pigs of big pharma and monopoly finance neoliberalism, trapped.

It takes years to confirm safety record of new drugs and this is now being done by investor interests. Fox guarding the henhouse. Still, if deaths and severe illness are drastically reduced by vaccination the gamble is live now, die later. People across the world without acces to vaccines due to malevolent geopolitical financial interests would gladly exchange places with hegemon subjects in heartland of hegemon and first-tier vassal subjects.

Many people have rightly emphasized take care of yourself. Ensure your innate immune system is functioning as optimally as possible. The list of to-dos is well known and I need not repeat it here. This is the first and best line of defense against Covid 2 even as it mutates which it will which is why for at least five weeks after being vaccinated one must protect against disease exposure.

There is no scientific evidence of which I am aware that supports the hypothesis that one’s innate immune system (which produces NK, natural killer, lymphocyte cells) stops functioning once the specific immune system is primed to produce antibodies via natural disease exposure or vaccination. Please correct if I am wrong.

Posted by: suzan | Mar 16 2021 16:51 utc | 140

Just a quick note here:

In China, it is vaccinating people between 18 - 59 years old, starting with those who work at the essential business (doctors & nurses, workers at supermarket, cold-chain food industry, cleaning workers and baggage handling workers at airport, custom officials at airport, etc.

The Chinese national health experts are very cautious about vaccinating to 60+ old people and under 18 children, citing need more data.

In Western, it starts to vaccinate the oldest group, 80+ group, then 75+, so on.

I am wondering why the approaches are so different.......

Posted by: lulu | Mar 16 2021 17:07 utc | 141

I just took a quick look at the Wikipedia article on smallpox. It states that diagnosis of smallpox is by observation of symptoms and confirmed by PCR test.

Wait. The last case of smallpox occurred in 1978. PCR process did not exist in 1978. No process, no test. No case of smallpox was ever confirmed by PCR. The wiki article is an advertorial for PCR testing.

Everything you read is suspect. Everything. Read critically. If someone says to you “read this” it is not the same as “believe this”. Try to know things, do not believe much.

Somewhat related. The WHO plan to eradicate smallpox called for 80% vaccination rate in every country. That goal was only achieved, maybe, in a small number of countries. And smallpox is extinct. Innate immunity seems to work much better for corona viruses (common cold) than for smallpox. If the vaccines work, big if, 100% vaccination rate is not necessary.

Posted by: oldhippie | Mar 16 2021 17:09 utc | 142

suzan

Geertz Vander Bossche is certified in veterinary science, an independent vaccine consultant and the managing director of Vareco, an entrepreneurial executive, also someone who once worked for Gates, another uneducated so-called specialist in human medicine scientific method and inquiry

Uneducated so-called specialist? Let's peruse his complete biography, shall we?

Geert Vanden Bossche obtained his DVM at the Veterinary Faculty of Ghent and his PhD in Virology at the University of Hohenheim, Stuttgart. Following his Postdoctoral training in Virology, Immunology and Molecular Biology at the Free University of Berlin and the University of Hohenheim (Germany), he was given the Venia Legendi and subsequently held adjunct faculty appointments at the University of Hohenheim (Germany), the University of Leuven (Belgium) and the European Faculty for Environmental Sanitation at the University of Ghent (Belgium). He then transitioned to the Vaccine Industry to serve various senior roles in both early and late vaccine development (GSK, Novartis, Solvay). In 2008, he joined the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation in Seattle to serve as Senior Program Officer in Vaccine Discovery for Global Health. Furthermore, he also founded UNIVAC LLC, a start-up vaccine company, and coordinated the Ebola Vaccine Program on behalf of GAVI. He is now the Head of Vaccine Development Office at the German Center for Infection Research (DZIF) in Germany. He is board certified in Virology and Microbiology, the author of over 30 publications, and inventor on a patent application for universal vaccines. He has presented vaccine- and adjuvant-related topics at multiple international congresses

Posted by: john | Mar 16 2021 17:55 utc | 143

Under the circumstances (virus a danger, but not extremely so - lethality), I don't see how they justify the rushed and increasingly coercive vaccination programs.

It has been long established that there should be a period of prior evaluation and testing, I thought.

Then increasingly there is the attitude that:
1) If you don't take it, you are simply a paranoid moron
2) You must take it to protect me (others)
I think that type of social coercion is getting a bit worn.

I wonder is there a well founded claim as to how long the vaccination could be expected to protect a person from infection? Please.
And as compared to how long being infected might thereafter make a person immune.

I think there should be some concern that our imperfect attempts to protect ourselves from disease, may in the long run doom humanity.

Posted by: jared | Mar 16 2021 18:28 utc | 144

Oh, a last point -

I am surprised by the official (WHO) response to questions regarding reports of incidents with vaciniation - words to the effect:
"It has not been proven that was caused by the vaccine."

Reminds me of Monsanto stating that it has not been proven that Round-Up causes cancer.

Posted by: jared | Mar 16 2021 19:09 utc | 145

Jared @ 144

The answer to your query in paragraph 4 is no. There are already many suggestions and trial balloons that booster shots will be required at six months and perhaps even every six months forever.

You are correct that there would normally be extensive evaluation and testing. None of these vaccines has received full approval. They are experimental medicines available under Emergency Use Allowances. One of the prerequisites for an EUA is that no treatment exists. This is why the efficacy of immune support (vitamins) and ivermectin or HCQ must be so vigorously denied.

Posted by: oldhippie | Mar 16 2021 19:30 utc | 146

Can't find a report by Monti/WHO, just an open ed
https://www.ft.com/content/bf9ef359-b8ed-4015-b1f6-8347f85f62fa

Posted by: Mina | Mar 16 2021 19:32 utc | 147

@ jared | Mar 16 2021 19:09 utc | 145 who wrote
"
Reminds me of Monsanto stating that it has not been proven that Round-Up causes cancer.
"
Yep, that concept of manufacturing ignorance is called agnotology and was coined by the guy that proved the tobacco industry was doing such for decades....and still are.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 16 2021 19:36 utc | 148

Sorry, here is the report
https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/health-policy/european-programme-of-work/pan-european-commission-on-health-and-sustainable-development/news-and-multimedia/rethinking-policy-priorities-in-the-light-of-pandemics-a-call-to-action
With a ratio of ten times more dead than Japan or Switzerland, the EU is obliged to look in the mirror, for once.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 16 2021 19:36 utc | 149

@ Posted by: oldhippie | Mar 16 2021 19:30 utc | 146
@ Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 16 2021 19:36 utc | 148

Thank you, both, for those helpful responses.
I am afraid I am losing my bearings on this issue, in that, on the surface, it almost appears that a vast majority are insisting that we must (essentially) ALL submit (meaning even against our own judgement) to a medical treatment which
1) Is novel in concept/method
2) We have not tested to usual standards to say it is safe (beyond that you are not likely to die of it immediately)
3) We have not tested to usual standards to say it is effective, for some reasonable duration
4) I wont discuss the aspect of whether it is needed

Why does this seem so similar to the rationale behind the approval of the Boing/MAX and the concept of autonomous vehicles being put in service?

It seems to me we have a very thin veneer of respect for human life and dignity. We are very ready to grab the controls and start dictating what must be done.

Posted by: jared | Mar 16 2021 20:12 utc | 150

I am finding in many areas, it is increasingly apparent to me (in my later years) that it is not actually possible for people as a group to learn and progress - we are doom as a race to keep reliving the same mistakes.

Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one. - Charles Mackay

Posted by: jared | Mar 16 2021 20:45 utc | 151

lulu #139

...when we say Chinese we mean all the 56 ethnic groups, which include Han, Tibetan, Uyghurs, Zhuang, Yi, Hui, Bai, Miao, Mongols, Koreans, Kazakhs, Russians, etc. who live within China's border.

It is the foreigners, like you, who often equal Chinese only to Han Chinese, and then project their views back onto us Chinese.

Different to Western nation state, China is a civilisation state .


Thank you, perfectly said. It is important to keep bigotry exposed and rebutted.

China is a civilisation state!! The west is too blind with hubris to take the time to learn of the advantageous elements of China.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 16 2021 20:47 utc | 152

Ms. lulu

Uighurs are not part of Chinese Civilization.

Nor are the Tadjiks of Pamir.

Nor are the Tibetans.

For Koreans and for Manchus - yes - they are part of Chinese Civilization.

When you guys talk among yourselves, you do not consider the Miao to be "real" Chinese - please do not think everyone is ignorant of Han Chinese culture.

Posted by: fyi | Mar 16 2021 20:56 utc | 153

Continuing ...

USA pointing fingers at China continues. AFAIK, some lawsuits were filed months ago and there is talk of more of them.

A review of the failed polices that have caused 530,000+ deaths in USA as well as economic hardship is not something that TPTB want to see. So Cuomo's nursing home deaths must be forgotten. And if that means getting rid of Cuomo himself then so be it.

Former State Dept Lead Investigator Says COVID-19 Escaped From Wuhan Lab, May Have Been Bioweapons Accident

And if you believe, as I do, that this might have been a weapons vector gone awry, not deliberately released, but in development and then somehow leaked, this has turned out to be the greatest weapon in history," Asher told a Hudson Institute panel discussing the origins of the pandemic. "You've taken out 15 to 20 percent of global GDP. You've killed millions of people. The Chinese population has been barely affected. Their economies roared back to being number one in the entire G20."

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 16 2021 21:00 utc | 154

Jared @ 150&151

It follows the universal crapification of everything. Comparisons to the 737 MAX are appropriate. Good enough to sell, not good enough to fly. Oh, did you think it would fly? We only planned to sell it, you want to fly in it, and safely too. Perhaps you should have a private plane and your own pilot.

Over at the FLCCC site you can read Dr. Pierre Kory, now notorious as the ivermectin guy. He’s the sort of distinguished senior fellow who authors textbooks, who everyone is quick to point to as gracing the faculty roster. He has a personal note posted about how he has been fired from his position twice the past year. First time was for using steroids to help his covid patients breathe. That was simply standard of care from status quo ante. As when you have an asthmatic short of breath, you give him a steroid inhaler. Denying the inhaler would be wrong. No one could figure out why NIH/CDC said covid patients were absolutely not to have steroids. It made no sense. Everyone complied. Watched the patients die. Mere weeks after Kory was fired for cause the NIH relented, allowed the steroids. The guy who was right the first time of course is still fired. Colleagues? You think colleagues will stand together and buck the system? Would it matter that on the ward it could be seen plainly that Kory’s patients had less mortality? No, Kory gets a continuous barrage of gossip, innuendo, vilification. And he must be just as wrong about IVM as he was wrong about steroids. When the NIH says it is wrong it is wrong. When NIH says it is right then it is right. Not until.

Covid is bringing out all the craziness. Sounds to me like you, Jared, have a steady rudder. Try to keep it.

Posted by: oldhippie | Mar 16 2021 21:24 utc | 155

Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one. - Charles Mackay

Posted by: jared | Mar 16 2021 20:45 utc | 151

Yes, McKay makes a good case for it too, we seem to have a great example of that going on right now.

Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 16 2021 21:38 utc | 156

Jackrabbit #154

Poor fellow accusing China when he is likely living in Maryland with Fort Detrick only a few miles away. I guess these denial freaks will keep this BS up for at least another decade or two. They can't even conduct a credible inquiry into something as simple as vaping deaths or even major demolition disasters.

The lawyers will love an inquiry and the Congress, behind its barricade and military shield, will no doubt fudge the entire process. Blinken Biden will do regular 'big brother' blathers to the nation and the entire clown cart will trundle on down the hill to the swamp.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 16 2021 22:15 utc | 157

Oldhippy. I watched the video. 13 monkeys has echoed in my mind since then. Do you or any1 have info on the whole idea about mRNA being a permanent loss or is he saying it may be that. Ww dont know

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Mar 16 2021 22:49 utc | 158

@ Posted by: john | Mar 16 2021 17:55 utc | 143

The problem still remains. Gates is not qualified to make the societal scientific decisions he lords over; he is uneducated in the medical sciences. Bossche has climbed a career ladder from veterinary science to presiding over various for-profit entrepreneurial pursuits, now dramatically crying out as though he is some savior of “humanity” — no thank you. Evidence please.

Posted by: suzan | Mar 16 2021 23:01 utc | 159

@ suzan (159)

Given the society we actually live in, working for 'for-profit entrepreneurial pursuits' is pretty much the only game in town. Save your character assassinations for people that actually deserve it.

Posted by: MarkU | Mar 16 2021 23:10 utc | 160

re fyi @ #130

Aha I get it, you were talking nonsense again. You lack the english language skills to engage in semantics which is what you were attempting with your talk of Tibetan Chinese or "Korean Chinese" two irrelevancies which you then add a total untruth "When Chinese use the equivalent word "Chinese" then y mean Han."
When Chinese people talk about Han, Han is the noun they use not Chinese.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Mar 16 2021 23:14 utc | 161

When I first heard Geert Vanden Boosche interview it seemed very, very questionable to me. I posted this 4 days ago on Off-Guardian:

"If the virus and vaccine are nonsense then so are Geert’s warnings of a super virus. Is Geert paving the way for a continuing lockdown?

"Geert could have raised this many months ago (it is, essentially, only theoretical), instead, he only goes on the record after others have raised this (or very similar) issue. Geert establishes the idea of well-intentioned error. Is Geert posing as a whistle-blower as some kind of news management tactic?

Geert’s unquestioning praise of vaccines seems jarring. It is very important to Geert that we maintain faith in vaccines. Why? If Geert is right then messing about with viruses and vaccines is not worth the risk.

If we accept Geert’s theory as fact then it is inevitable that there must be a severe worldwide lockdown (extreme isolation and no freedom of movement) enforced by arbitrary military force and extrajudicial killings (shoot first and no questions ever). Why does Geert warn us only when it is too late to do anything effective to stop the nightmare he describes?

"This is one whistle-blower I would be extremely cautious about."

Surprise, surprise Geert's fake whistleblowing is beginning to gain traction.

I know you're all keen on a third wave but you all need to be very wary of Geer Vanden Bossche. Read this and calm your fevered imaginations:

The Curious Case of Geert Vanden Bossche

Posted by: ADKC | Mar 16 2021 23:16 utc | 162

lulu @ 141, thank you for that information.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 16 2021 23:20 utc | 163

Suzan. Geert did post his paper. He has asked for a rebuttle of his science. Far as I can tell no rebuttles just derision. He addresses that as well. U seem unbiased why not read his paper and post a rebuttle

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Mar 16 2021 23:27 utc | 164

@ 140 suzan... i share your viewpoint given in this post.... i find so much of the info available extremely conflicting... thanks for stating a position that resonates with me... and thanks @ 143 john, and others here - jared, oldhippie and etc. on the ongoing conversation on this topic...

i have had a busy day today and been unable to participate til now.. playing catch up...

Posted by: james | Mar 16 2021 23:29 utc | 165

@ Tannenhouser | Mar 16 2021 23:27 utc | 164... geert mentioned he had posted it to linkedin, but was it posted anywhere else, or has anyone made a link available here?? i missed it if so.. thanks.. i don't do linkedin and i am surprised if that is the only place he shared it..

Posted by: james | Mar 16 2021 23:30 utc | 166

@ Posted by: oldhippie | Mar 16 2021 21:24 utc | 155

OldHippie, Thank you for the words of encouragement, they do help. Your nom de plume reminds me of a teacher I had in the 70's. Back of her Volvo had several bumpers stickers - One of my favorite was "Question Authority".

Posted by: jared | Mar 16 2021 23:48 utc | 167

The MIC (medical industrial complex) is one of the pillars our corporate fascist system is built upon.

Posted by: Haassaan | Mar 16 2021 3:32 utc | 100

Hm. The "power services", law enforcement, intelligence and of course military give muscle to the system, and the sense of huge importance to everybody involved.

The likes of big Pharma, banks etc. benefit from "rules of the game" that are imposed by USA and allies, and they control a much larger part of the domestic and global pie, but they do not have the glamour and influence of the military-security complex. Although they dig into the state machinery with "regulatory capture", so there is some "deep state" aspect.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Mar 16 2021 23:55 utc | 168

Grieved @ 105, looking back, I think that the first mention of Geert van den Bossche comes at oldhippie's post #63. You will see that my mention of #12 comes immediately after that, and it is possible that I overlooked it, since I had been watching the #12 video and was commenting on that. However #63 while informative does not give a link to go to, and not having heard of the gentleman before, I could just have moved on wishing to hear what others had to say. I came across a post from Mina and commented on that, and it wasn't until John's post and JB's positive take that I then watched the video which was very long and also surprising to me as I had not heard this information before. Others have, apparently and it was old news to them. I am and was anxious about it because I have children and grandchildren considering whether to be vaccinated, friends that already have, and as you know have said I would not do so myself.

When the mainstream is so fixed upon the vaccine in its propaganda I don't fault any rational explanation of the results coming out of these trials since we've often seen as b posts here how 'vaccine supremacy' becomes the important issue in a race that ought not to be a race. I still think both videos were worth watching, and I don't understand why various people pointing that out was an irritation to some.

But anyway, I apologize for posting too many times -- it is Lent after all, and I have other things to think about. I hope it all goes well for everyone.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 16 2021 23:56 utc | 169

here is a bit of a critic of Geert Vanden Bossche's pitch from off g -The Curious Case of Geert Vanden Bossche

can't remember if giving a link to off g means this goes into the cue...

Posted by: james | Mar 17 2021 0:01 utc | 170

@ juliania | Mar 16 2021 23:56 utc | 169... i don't think there is any reason for you to apologize juliania.. you are too nice! you have done nothing wrong and as always your intentions are coming from a good place.. btw - i am on page 805 in that 900 page book we have talked about... enjoying every minute reading it!

Posted by: james | Mar 17 2021 0:04 utc | 171

As for Iran, you do not understand Iran. Iran was a religion that became a country not a people - unlike Rus, which were a people who became a country.

The appellation Iran does not refer to a people but to a myth.

Posted by: fyi | Mar 16 2021 13:49 utc | 130

You mean, Zoroastrian religion? Persis -- today Fars, was a part of a larger empire that was positively multi-religious.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Mar 17 2021 0:19 utc | 172

here is another type rebuttal to geert vanden bossches scientific viewpoint...

How Worried Should We Be About the Variants? by Dr Mike Yeadon and Marc Girardot march 13th

Posted by: james | Mar 17 2021 0:30 utc | 173

US and Canada have passed a Rubicon and it's nothing to be proud of:

Moderna becomes first to start trialing Covid-19 jab on kids aged 6 months to 11 years

No need or benefit for children to have the vaccine so there is no need to test it on them.

Posted by: ADKC | Mar 17 2021 0:33 utc | 174

Mr. Piotr Berman

No.

Shia Islam.

Posted by: Fyi | Mar 17 2021 0:39 utc | 175

fyi@130:

Mr. fyi, I reckon you are not Chinese. I am, and 90% of my social circle are Chinese. When us Chinese refer to others as Chinese, we mean they are, or once were, Chinese citizens, or that both of their parents are/were Chinese citizens. Many of my acquaintances are of Mongolian, or Manchu, or Miao (in the United State known as Hmong) ethnicities, but they all consider themselves Chinese and so do I. In China itself when a person's bio is referenced, his/her ethnicity is usually also noted, either as Han, or Mongol, or Miao, or Yao, or Urghur, or whatever. There are 56 recognized ethnicities in China as of now, and even though 90+% of them are Hans, the vast, vast minorities do consider themselves Chinese although there are a few who don't. On the other hand, there are millions of Hans who don't consider themselves Chinese, like those in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore/Malaysia, USA/Canada, etc. Once made known, we don't consider them Chinese either. This is the psycho-mindset of my Chinese community as I know it.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Mar 17 2021 0:44 utc | 176

one more method of content managed propaganda.

astroturfing

Posted by: snake | Mar 17 2021 1:03 utc | 177

Helmer: How the NATO Alliance is fighting Russia's Sputnik V vaccine with subsidies from state budgets and the Gates Foundation.

https://twitter.com/bears_with/status/1369545644688482306

Posted by: John Gilberts | Mar 17 2021 1:37 utc | 178

Mr. Oriental Voice

Thank you for your comments.

Yet, I respectfully disagree. The word had been "Middle Kingdom (Fortress) Person" which, historically, meant the Han (White) people only. Tibetans as "Middle Fortress Man" is laughable in its incredulity.

Posted by: Fyi | Mar 17 2021 2:01 utc | 179

@Posted by: MarkU | Mar 16 2021 23:10 utc | 160

Fine. Fair enough. But where is the evidence? Where is his paper citing evidence? Link?

Posted by: suzan | Mar 17 2021 2:49 utc | 180

@146 oldhippie - " None of these vaccines has received full approval. They are experimental medicines available under Emergency Use Allowances. One of the prerequisites for an EUA is that no treatment exists. This is why the efficacy of immune support (vitamins) and ivermectin or HCQ must be so vigorously denied."

I added emphasis to your words quoted above, to show the connection I had not made between those two things. Thank you very much, a great light goes on.

To restate my point in plain terms, I hadn't noticed that to issue an EUA for a medicine, there must be no existing treatment available for the disease. So it becomes crucial that no working treatment be acknowledged. You connected those two dots, that I had not personally seen connected yet.

Many thanks for that.

~~

Yes, it's true of course, there is NO Covid vaccine that is FDA-approved, as I think Pfizer makes clear in its website on its vaccine. The vaccines in the US are allowed under the EUA (which is actually Emergency Use Authorization, to correct the typo). If people knew that simple fact, it might give them pause. But the media reports as if the vaccines have been given approval. Big difference between authorization and approval.

All the vaccines in use in the US are still in their trials, and the populace is part of the experimental testing. If people knew that simple fact they might run a mile. In the coldest, simplest logic, it's a clinical trials period of unproven vaccines, and people should choose how they feel about their odds, especially knowing that if anything goes wrong, there will be no lawsuits in the future, since Big Pharma has been indemnified against any.

It takes zero knowledge of medicine or science to understand those facts. You could apply the same facts and terms to any situation and understand the choice: You buy the ticket, you take the ride.

So for some people, it isn't crucial to understand the science perfectly, or to guess at the likely outcomes of choices. It's enough simply to understand the terms of the choice.

Posted by: Grieved | Mar 17 2021 2:52 utc | 181

@ Posted by: Tannenhouser | Mar 16 2021 23:27 utc | 164

Link to his paper?

Posted by: suzan | Mar 17 2021 2:53 utc | 182

Mr. fyi:

So the term "Middle Kingdom" bugs you, LOL! This term was in use since 3 millennia ago when Chinese didn't even know that there were Europeans. It was used, in written documents, to demark the region where a civilization thrived while it differentiated surrounding regions as inhibited by people of different civilizations. In those days, Chinese were agricultural based while surrounding ethnicities were nomadic. It wasn't the concept of being the center. By the way, during the era when the term Middle Kingdom was first used, Chinese weren't even Hans. They called themselves 'Hua Xia'. The Han dynasty came a thousand years later. And ever since the Han Dynasty, Han people as an ethnicity has actually been a mixture of various races, including Turks, Huns, and Tibetan who in those days were called Tobos and resided in today's Qinghai Provence. I suspect it was the British in India who tagged the name Tibetan, referring to people who had by then moved south from Qinghai to today's Tibet.

No, when Chinese refer to their motherland as Middle Kingdom they don't mean you Caucasians (I assume you are Caucasian :) are fringe people. Don't feel insulted. You sounded very bitter and prejudiced. But it doesn't bother me none. I don't need to be liked by people I don't know :).

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Mar 17 2021 2:54 utc | 183

Mr. Oriental Voice

Was not An Lu Hsun Han?

And Yen Fu, was he also not Han?

And Dalai Lama be Han too, just like them?

I think not.

The idea that you are espousing is the relatively new idea of citizenship, which Chinese modernizers adopted for China. For more than a millenia, Han and Chung Kuo Ren were synonymous.

Posted by: Fyi | Mar 17 2021 3:05 utc | 184

Mr. fyi:

An Lu Shan, in his days which was Tang Dynasty, considered himself Chinese, as seen in documents of his own writing. It is us later Chinese in pondering history that espouse make the difference saying he was of Turk origin. I have no idea who you meant by Yen Fu. Dalai is a lama priest. He was Chinese of Tibetan ethnicity, but he doesn't considers himself Chinese, so be it. Who cares? I don't. But I'm through with you on this argument. Think of Chinese whichever way you'd like, I wouldn't give a damn. I have no preference on old or new ideas of citizenship. I'm Chinese because I like the idea of being a Chinese. Let others be whatever they want to be, I don't care.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Mar 17 2021 3:44 utc | 185

@ Oriental Voice | Mar 17 2021 3:44 utc | 185 who has responded so well to fyi, the rock thrower...thanks

There are those that are paid or of the persuasion to denigrate others who they think poorly of. They don't add value to a conversation but attempt to divert or break it down. But, in a thread with a reference to five eyes like this, what do you expect?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 17 2021 4:06 utc | 186

@ Posted by: james | Mar 16 2021 23:30 utc | 166

All I could find is the open letter. It has no evidence citations. I can find no published papers.

I did find someone, an MD, who discusses the open letter and his recent viral interview video so attractive to people for various understandable reasons.


“Why Vanden Bossche Is Wrong About COVID Vaccines”

https://zdoggmd.com/vanden-bossche/

Posted by: suzan | Mar 17 2021 4:13 utc | 187

Mr. Oriental Voice

So, the your position is that Mr. Dalai Lama is a Tibetan Chinese, implying no volition on his part. He is what you call he is because he is what he is.

On the other hand, yourself, a Han, have chosen to be a Chung Kuo Ren, because you like that.

So, Mr. Dalai Lama, a Tibetan who claims not to be Chinese, is Chinese due to your historical claims. And you, a Han, imply that you can be something other.

You are inconsistent.

And when you have run out of an argument, you become rude.

Google the late Yen Fu.

Posted by: Fyi | Mar 17 2021 4:20 utc | 188

Mr. psychohistorian

Many commentators on this site are full of righteous indignation about this or that real or imagined injustice or act of calumny, but in their own responses to one another they are rude and obnoxious.

And they want to make the world a better place?

They cannot write a paragraph without being insulting.

Posted by: Fyi | Mar 17 2021 4:26 utc | 189

re vaccines and what happens to scientists who do not obey group-think dictates. instead relying on their own quest for truth and personal experiences/observations . Am reminded of Kary Mullis [inventor of valuable PCR technology]. Apparently at .gov request he ventured into a handling of anthrax disease.

IIRC he produced a novel method of directing the innate [already there and functioning] immune system to specifically attack anthrax and his method demonstrably worked...then he died of pneumonia or s/g at age 74. The method he used to attack anthrax seemed to be widely applicable as a "universal" technique... or so I read. [recall anthrax is bacterial, not viral infection...but that distinction may be questionable]

There are videos of him in 2020 verbally attacking the veracity of A. Fauci.

Anyone have info on KM's untimely death?

Posted by: chu teh | Mar 17 2021 4:37 utc | 190

More on America's attempts to suppress the usage of the sputnik vaccine in Brazil.

Fallout: US Suppression of Russian Vaccine in Brazil Becomes Diplomatic Incident
https://libya360.wordpress.com/2021/03/16/fallout-us-suppression-of-russian-vaccine-in-brazil-becomes-diplomatic-incident/

The depths of American depravity and deception are truly Goebbelsian.

Hell, the United States would make Joseph Goebbels envious in comparison.

Posted by: ak74 | Mar 17 2021 4:48 utc | 191

Regarding Sputnik in Brazil (and the rest of the world), the real issue was and continue to be the inability of its russian maker to provide enough documentation about its test and production.

There is a huge demand for it (even our crazy president and politicians from all sides of the political divide want it), but it has to pass the approval process of each country`s FDA like agency.

To blame lobbying from the USA for the delay in buying Sputnik is just an easy cop out.

Posted by: Alves | Mar 17 2021 5:12 utc | 192

Just to set the record straight, I was the first one to link to Geert Vanden Bossche's interview @ 68, so pile on if ya wanna. He's clearly qualified to say what he said, and I found his argument pretty compelling, even if I certainly hope that he's wrong. In a nutshell, his concern:

I am beyond worried about the disastrous impact this would have on our human ‘race’. Not only would people lose vaccine-mediated protection but also their precious, variant-nonspecific (!), innate immunity will be gone (this is because vaccinal antibodies outcompete natural antibodies for binding to Covid-19, even when their affinity for the viral variant is relatively low) (my bold)

But jaded is jaded and the echo chamber is satiated by over indulgence.

I did find the Off Guardian piece kind of amusing(red flags waving, suspicions simmering),that is, mostly, the disclaimer at the end:

I do agree we should stop the use of the current vaccines

A million laughs.

Posted by: john | Mar 17 2021 10:19 utc | 193

After all the intense debate about vax and natural immunity here today, I might adopt the precautionary principle and grab some ivermectin plus some of the other pills and head to the beach for a bask in the sun :)

Thanks all for the intense discussion and the links. This bar is diverse, sane and tough on dissent and better for it.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 17 2021 11:22 utc | 194

Chevrus | Mar 16 2021 12:44 utc | 126

That's why I put 'safer' in quotes.
I don't want to take any of them, but at some point I will have to make a decision that if I want to do certain things I will be forced to take one of them.

The Off Guardian article on Geert Vanden Bossche shows that nothing should be taken at face value.
The best course is to follow your own intuition.

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 17 2021 11:56 utc | 195

The Last American Vagabond interview with Rosemary Frei taking a critical look at new Covid variants and Geert Vanden Bossche:

New COVID Vaccines Allowed Without Safety Trials If Based On “New Variants” & Geert Vanden Bossche

Posted by: ADKC | Mar 17 2021 14:23 utc | 196

This is bad news for Brazil
given that the 2nd wave of the Wu-flu coronavirus has only just started in that country

and yet the US/Brits are trying to make political capital
in denying the Brazilians access to what by all accounts is an effective vaccine.

Just imagine if somebody in Russia or China found a cure for cancer or whatever

the first thing you would see on TeeVee or the msm, would be somebody like BoJo or Biden or Trump showing their misgivings towards it.

Posted by: chris m | Mar 17 2021 14:43 utc | 197

@ Posted by: john | Mar 17 2021 10:19 utc | 193

Repeating and bolding an assertion by someone who has not published a scientific paper in over 25 years afaict is simply that, repeating louder what the man proclaims without evidence.

He published an open letter saying he is serving as savior of humanity — without providing any evidence. Well, that’s keeping with some human traditions pre-science.

No one has provided links to evidence supporting his claims despite repeated requests. Beware of devils coming from both directions.

Posted by: suzan | Mar 17 2021 15:52 utc | 198

@ suzan | Mar 17 2021 4:13 utc | 187... thanks suzan... i read the transcript on that link just now..

@ john | Mar 17 2021 10:19 utc | 193.. thanks john... that is the link i shared @ 170....

my position... i am conflicted on it all still.. i think i am going to get this mrna vaccine when it is offered where i live..i don't see enough evidence to say no to it.. what i would prefer and what my choices are, are 2 different things here.. thus the conflict..

@ Fyi | Mar 17 2021 4:26 utc | 189.... you have really given yourself away in this post... it confirms everything i thought and is more then enough confirmation for others to completely ignore you here forward..

Posted by: james | Mar 17 2021 16:02 utc | 199

I'll add to the ongoing discussion that an important point in the video @12 was that despite the intense pressure in Israel for citizens to take the vaccine, including that certain freedoms would necessitate a certificate saying they had done so, at the time the video was looking at the statistics, 50% of Israelis did not want to subject themselves to it.

The video was interesting in having a general approach to comparing the results in other countries, other demographics. It was primarily based on observation, but with some caveats about what was actually happening and what was being reported as happening. It made no claims to know reasons, just was comparing the then available facts.

I have a high regard for musicians. Plato felt music was an important aspect of the arts in the proper education of the soul. And from karlof1's exposition on Putin's Sirius project we can see, so does Russia.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 17 2021 16:10 utc | 200

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