Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 19, 2021

U.S. Aggressiveness Follow Up

The 'western' media reporting of the spat between Biden and Putin is typically bad.

The Guardian @guardian - 18:15 UTC · Mar 18, 2021

'Takes one to know one': Putin-Biden spat escalates over 'killer' accusation

That was not what Putin had said:

Ivan Pentchoukov @IvanPentchoukov - 16:56 UTC · Mar 19, 2021

Can't believe how many outlets are running with the same totally false translation of what Putin said.

The idiom Putin used is much closer to "the names you call others is what you should be called."

The official Kremlin transcript agrees with Ivan's formulation:

[D]ifficult, dramatic, and bloody events abound in the history of every nation and every state. But when we evaluate other people, or even other states and nations, we are always facing a mirror, we always see ourselves in the reflection, because we project our inner selves onto the other person.

You know, I remember when we were children and played in the yard, we had arguments occasionally and we used to say: whatever you call me is what you are called yourself. This is no coincidence or just a kids’ saying or joke. It has a very deep psychological undercurrent. We always see ourselves in another person and think that he or she is just like us, and evaluate the other person’s actions based on our own outlook on life.

There is an additional passage of interest which sets out rules for future talks that I have not seen reported in 'western' media:

I know that the United States and its leaders are determined to maintain certain relations with us, but on matters that are of interest to the United States and on its terms. Even though they believe we are just like them, we are different. We have a different genetic, cultural and moral code. But we know how to uphold our interests. We will work with the United States, but in the areas that we are interested in and on terms that we believe are beneficial to us. They will have to reckon with it despite their attempts to stop our development, despite the sanctions and insults. They will have to reckon with this.

We, with our national interests in mind, will promote our relations with all countries, including the United States.

Secretary of State Blinken's meeting with the Chinese foreign minister in a shabby Alaskan hotel was another diplomatic train wreck:

“The alternative to a rules-based order is a world in which might makes right and winner takes all and that would be a far more violent and unstable world,” Blinken said.

The 'rules based order' means 'do what we say' and is of course unacceptable. Here is how the Chinese replied:

What China and the international community follow or uphold is the United Nations-centered international system and the international order underpinned by international law, not what is advocated by a small number of countries of the so-called “rules-based” international order.

and

I don’t think the overwhelming majority of countries in the world would recognize that the universal values advocated by the United States or that the opinion of the United States could represent international public opinion, and those countries would not recognize that the rules made by a small number of people would serve as the basis for the international order.

When Yang was chided by Blinken for making a too long opening statement in response to Blinken's accusations Yang replied:

The Chinese side felt compelled to make this speech because of the tone of the U.S. side.

Well, isn’t this the intention of United States, judging from what – or the way that you have made your opening remarks, that it wants to speak to China in a condescending way from a position of strength?

So was this carefully all planned and was it carefully orchestrated with all the preparations in place? Is that the way that you had hoped to conduct this dialogue?

Well, I think we thought too well of the United States. We thought that the U.S. side will follow the necessary diplomatic protocols. So for China it was necessary that we made our position clear.

So let me say here that, in front of the Chinese side, the United States does not have the qualification to say that it wants to speak to China from a position of strength. The U.S. side was not even qualified to say such things even 20 years or 30 years back, because this is not the way to deal with the Chinese people. If the United States wants to deal properly with the Chinese side, then let’s follow the necessary protocols and do things the right way.

And this which was apparently left out of State Departments transcript:

History will prove that if you use cutthroat competition to suppress China you will be the one to suffer in the end.

The attempted U.S. assault was a home run for the Chinese side:

Many netizens on China’s social media said Chinese officials were doing a good job in Alaska, and that the U.S. side lacked sincerity.

Some even characterized the talks as a “Hongmen Banquet”, referring to an event that took place 2,000 years ago where a rebel leader invited another to a feast with the intention of murdering him.

Posted by b on March 19, 2021 at 18:53 UTC | Permalink

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The Chinese emphasis on most of the world rejecting a US-directed 'rules-based order' instead of honouring the UN Charter and settled international law is of supreme importance aand must be re-emphasized ad nauseum.

Posted by: chet380 | Mar 19 2021 19:16 utc | 1

I'm glad China says what every country should have been saying for the last 40 years. The US is a liar and always has been.

Posted by: Jezabeel | Mar 19 2021 19:17 utc | 2

What a bunch of amateurish megalomaniac idiots. It was an exhibition of a total lack of tact, self-perception, decency or any equilibrium. The Chinese's confident offensive resulted in a rapid emotional dive from a state of megalomaniac bravado to shaky self-confidence. In comparison they made even Trump look like a cultivated gentleman.

Posted by: Sadde | Mar 19 2021 19:22 utc | 3

The 'takes one to know one' quote is not a direct quote from Putin, it is a claim by Biden.

Here is the Daily Beast's take on it. (Yeah, I know it's a ridiculous source, but it was the first source I found that correctly attributed that quote to Biden.)

Biden recalled: “We had a long talk, he and I, when we... I know him relatively well. And the conversation started off, I said, ‘I know you and you know me. If I establish this occurred, then be prepared.’”

The president also confirmed that, some years ago, he was alone with Putin in his office and he brought up the topic of Putin’s lack of a human soul. “I said, ‘I looked in your eyes and I don’t think you have a soul,’ and he looked back and said, ‘We understand each other.’ The most important thing of dealing with foreign leaders... is just know the other guy.”

Posted by: Lurk | Mar 19 2021 19:23 utc | 4

To translate from Orwellian Western Newspeak to english:

'Rules-based order' means 'Our rules for you that we don't have to follow and can change anytime we like.'

'International order' means 'Western-ruled-world order.'

'International community' means the US-led Western community and vassal states. Western media spouts this all the time.

'Rules-based' is the modern day incarnation of Americans/British throwing around the phrase 'treaty', 'treaty-based' in colonial days. Different words, same con.

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Mar 19 2021 19:28 utc | 5

"whatever you call me is what you are called yourself."

This is a rather clumsy translation, I agree with englisch version the Guardian used: "It takes one to know one" that actually encapsules the sentiment in much more elegant and more poignant form.

Posted by: Peter Moritz | Mar 19 2021 19:29 utc | 6

USA provided a transcript of both US Govt & China Govt speakers.

I thought this a little unusual, as foreign miminstries like to publish their own transcripts so that they control the authentic translation of their words, free from the opposing parties editing or mis-translation.

"cutthroat competition" may be an arguably alternative translation of "strangle" in the China readout "those who seek to strangle China will suffer in the end."

I was waiting for the China verbatim translation to check the fidelity of the USA translation.

https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/wjdt_665385/wshd_665389/t1862641.shtml
https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/wjdt_665385/wshd_665389/t1862643.shtml


But there is only an unquoted report, which is the meeting, but without quotation marks to distinguish between the authors voice and the Officials voice.

Verbatim would be better.

Maybe the USA had reciprocal concerns about the verbatim accuracy of the China transcript.

But its on video anyway, so???

Posted by: powerandpeople | Mar 19 2021 19:37 utc | 7

@ 6 Posted by: Peter Moritz

The Guardian's translation of "it takes one to know one," which has been amplified by western media and social media, is absolutely incorrect. It implies that Putin is admitting that he is a 'killer,' which he absolutely does not do. Anybody that has a working knowledge of Russian will be able to translate the saying that Putin uses to mean that he is suggesting that Biden is projecting. In fact, Putin provides context for this statement by referring to US History.

Posted by: Kapusta | Mar 19 2021 19:39 utc | 8

Toothless sabre rattling is about all the USA has left. A bunch of old men with a world view from the 1950s whose own virility is long gone is not going to come to an epiphany about their encroaching impotence. The Establishment has no other choice, absent common sense and critical thinking, but to double-down on arrogant self-righteousness bred by sophomoric jingoism that defines 'shallow.'

Empire is crumbling before our eyes. The question is will it take the rest of the world with it as it falls into its own footprint.

Posted by: gottlieb | Mar 19 2021 19:39 utc | 9

Who cares what politicians say. Each of them is playing to their domestic audience; their speeches (and, in Biden's case, pressers) are probably written by political consultants, tested by focus groups. In the end, it's just a lot of hot air.

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Mar 19 2021 19:39 utc | 10

Re: Peter Moritz | Mar 19 2021 19:29 utc | 6

I say bullshit. "It takes one to know one" - suggests some equivalence for the two people. That meaning is not in Kremlin transcript of Putin's words. Putin is saying "you are projecting (your own problem)".

Posted by: tucenz | Mar 19 2021 19:48 utc | 11

Perhaps one of the more predictable mistakes the US will commit next, is misinterpret the stern warnings of the past few days by Russia, China and even NK, as evidence the new Biden/Blinken regime is less feared or respected than the Trump/Pompeo one.

I suspect a more accurate interpretation would be, "ok, you had the crazy guy for 4 years and we cut you some slack, hoping once the grown ups were back we could reason as adults, but if you're gonna carry on with the same attitude, basically, Democrat or Republican, you can all summarily go fxxx yourselves".

Particularly at the end of the term, the Obama regime was already being met by a very hostile China and Russia, well before Trump took over with his less than diplomatic style (or lack thereof). Anyone recall the airport security debacle with China during Obama's last weeks?

Posted by: Et Tu | Mar 19 2021 19:51 utc | 12

Who will fill the empty shoes of the lost and vanished Homo sapiens sapiens?

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 19 2021 19:55 utc | 13

How our interaction w/China was reported FOX did a full throated, fake narrative just to suit their pro-Trump agenda. When they quoted, 'you cannot talk to us from a position of strength' they made is sound like the Chinese were scoffing at Blinken's weakness rather than his moral turpitude. They made it sound like Blinken surrendering to his Chinese overlords, squandering the strong hand the Trump gave him.

In FOX land, all that matters is that you come up with a great sounding argument. The truthfulness of that arguments is not relevant.

Posted by: Christian J. Chuba | Mar 19 2021 19:55 utc | 14

The OP claims this is a superior English translation. Thus, when it quotes Putin as saying "We have a different genetic, cultural and moral code," this is to be taken as what Putin said and meant to say.

The notion a state like the Russian Federation has a moral code is treating the state as if it had a soul with free will and moral responsibility. In the context of talking about projection and analyzing behavior by reference to ones own psychology or experience or personal values, like a government actually has these things, like its a person? Perhaps the best explanation is that "we" is a kind of royal "we" and Putin is speaking as the decider.

The notion that culture is a code, like a legal code, prescribing behavior and inherited from the past but only modified by due authority is doubtful too. Culture as the way of life of people, which they make, seems more plausible than abstract ideas making the people. Also, in context it sort of hints at the notion that these codes are separate-but-equal, all of equal validity. The problem is that separate is never equal. Everyone who says so is wrong.

But I suppose such differences can be attributed to having a materialist view of man, where experience not prescribed norms are the causes. That is, that Putin is an anti-Marxist and of course wouldn't use Marxist-type thinking.

But genetic codes are natural science, not social science. There is no finessing this one by pretending there is no science of man. The twaddle about different genetic codes is ignorant, scientific racist BS. Putin openly shows himself to be an asshole who preferred reactionary ideology to learning anything about humanity. Putin showed himself to be personally contemptible.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Mar 19 2021 19:57 utc | 15

Add that Russia is realizing in CAR what neither France or the US has managed to do... And that it involves the cooperation of Rwanda, the winner-takes-it-all in the region. FR/US/EU/NATO must be livid.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/explained-crisis-in-the-central-african-republic/article34072953.ece

Posted by: Mina | Mar 19 2021 20:04 utc | 16

The USA's situation is very dire indeed. The Americans are resorting more and more to "Hail Mary" moves to keep their hegemonic position.

And even then they're blundering. I would not be surprised at all if they start to straight out have to falsify diplomatic transcripts in order to try to create something favorable to them.

Posted by: vk | Mar 19 2021 20:05 utc | 17

Peter Moritz @ 6
Not so, the way I see it. Your way of looking at this implies that they are both equally 'killers', and moreover, that Putin is somehow admitting this, that they are both loathsome scoundrels together.

IMHO, westerners would most likely recognize the idea of 'projection'. The accuser projects his/her own psychological workings and attitudes on to the other.

Which is pretty much how U.S. and vassal diplomacy works nowadays. Accuse the other of what you are feeling or have plans to do (and in many cases, in the context of actions already carried out). A sort of psychological pre–emptive strike. The accuser has to be in full propaganda mode (following the precepts of the late Joseph Goebells), or deeply hypocritical, or sublimely un–self–aware.

Posted by: Ames Gilbert | Mar 19 2021 20:05 utc | 18

Related to US-China tensions, if anyone likes documentary shows, CNA (Channel News Asia, a broadcaster out of Singapore) has a good four-part documentary released in January 2021 called "When Titans Clash", about the US-China trade/tech tensions, that I would recommend. (I watched the first two yesterday and will watch the other two this weekend.)

Each of the 4 parts is about 48 minutes long and available for watching on YouTube and CNA's website too.

When Titans Clash - part 1 of 4 - Pride & Shame - The Roots of US-China Tensions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL2gBUxblO8

When Titans Clash - part 2 of 4 - The Real Losers of the US-China Trade War
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mYrWYSTW28

When Titans Clash - part 3 of 4 - A US-China Tech War - The True Costs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8XnLW26bmg

When Titans Clash - part 4 of 4 - US or China - Will Southeast Asia Have to Pick a Side
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ8A5jiGICM

Touches on some of the things ak74 mentioned in his comment on the other thread: outsourcing, deindustrialization, the US dollar as reserve currency, etc.

It's from Pearl Forss who was also involved in CNA's 2015-2019 series "The New Silk Road", about China's BRI, that I can recommend as well.

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Mar 19 2021 20:07 utc | 19

Related to US-China tensions, if anyone likes documentary shows, CNA (Channel News Asia, a broadcaster out of Singapore) has a good four-part documentary released in January 2021 called "When Titans Clash", about the US-China trade/tech tensions, that I would recommend. (I watched the first two yesterday and will watch the other two this weekend.)

Each of the 4 parts is about 48 minutes long and available for watching on YouTube and CNA's website too.

When Titans Clash - part 1 of 4 - Pride & Shame - The Roots of US-China Tensions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL2gBUxblO8

When Titans Clash - part 2 of 4 - The Real Losers of the US-China Trade War
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mYrWYSTW28

When Titans Clash - part 3 of 4 - A US-China Tech War - The True Costs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8XnLW26bmg

When Titans Clash - part 4 of 4 - US or China - Will Southeast Asia Have to Pick a Side
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ8A5jiGICM

It's from Pearl Forss who was also involved in CNA's 2015-2019 series "The New Silk Road", about China's BRI, that I can recommend as well

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Mar 19 2021 20:09 utc | 20

[Fun Moment] Decrepit emperor:

White House: Biden 'Just Fine' After Falling on Air Force One Stairs, No Medical Attention Required

Posted by: vk | Mar 19 2021 20:09 utc | 21

If we are really looking for a good idiomatic match for Putin's comment, I would suggest the old classic: "He who smelt it, dealt it."

In addition to capturing the sense, it, like the phrase Putin used, rhymes.

Posted by: ДжММ | Mar 19 2021 20:11 utc | 22

The world appreciates that Russia and China give the US Regime a sublime verbal spanking.

Posted by: Norwegian | Mar 19 2021 20:14 utc | 23

thanks b... this deserves a focus.. i await the usa press briefing which has yet to come out...

ditto others comments on @ 6 Peter Moritz who would prefer the fox news translation or whatever bullshit you want to call it...

@ 15 steven... so when all the usa politicians and leaders say 'we represent "reedom and democracy' that means what exactly?? it sure doesn't match reality... may as well have a dictator in power in the usa at this point - and that is probably why 1/2 the country liked trump too!... regardless, the usa will have some leader who represents wall st and the corporate agenda... however determined these globalist interests are, they do run contrary to the idea of a nation having a particular character.... but perhaps this is now close to being completely lost in the west thru putting corporatism on a pedestal, in spite of all the crap about freedom and democracy... so, yes i personally believe a nation that hasn't completely given over to the corporate agenda does have a particular unique character which would include a moral and ethical one too... it is what is being erased with globalism too as i see it...

Posted by: james | Mar 19 2021 20:15 utc | 24

@tucenz et.al

"It takes one to know one" of course carries the connotation: if you label me as such one, you could only do this because you have intimate knowledge of yourself.

Thus, the saying can clearly refer to a projection by the opponent issuing the insult.

Be that as it may, the translation forwarded by others just stinks, is inelegant and an eyesore...if you disagree with the Guardian version, find a better one yourself.

Posted by: Peter Moritz | Mar 19 2021 20:16 utc | 25

@ 10Mao Cheng Ji

I disagree. At least in the conduct between civilized countries, a minimum level of protocol and respect matters. It may make much of a difference especially when dealing with conflicts. And the conduct of the US americans is worrying. They are behaving like rabid dogs.

I do not know whether demented Biden is just bragging and lying when telling the story about having told Putin that he has no human soul. If so, it demonstrates that the rapist Biden lacked manners and education even back then, But I understand the irony in the alleged response from Putin's side. It was a very polite way of saying "you are a complete idiot".

Posted by: aquadraht | Mar 19 2021 20:16 utc | 26

My translation of "The Brothers Karamazov" has one of Dostoevski's brothers saying, "Each man creates Satan in his own image."

Blinken is Secretary of State for USA, head of the US State Department.
He mentioned in his nomination hearing, & makes allusion in this meeting with China, to a genocide in Xinjiang.
Foreign Affairs magazine article reports US State Department legal office saying they have no evidence for a genocide in Xinjiang.
Is Blinken in touch with his department?

Posted by: dave constable | Mar 19 2021 20:22 utc | 27

james@23 asks what it means when "our" leaders talk of fine-sounding abstractions like freedom and democracy? When they don't define freedom and democracy in relation to property and the way of life (social production and reproduction,) it means they are political swindlers. When they claim these professed ideals are causal they are engaging in an ideological obfuscation of reality. The question is why this sort of thing is good when Putin does it?

But of course most people totally reject such a materialist view. You yourself think something called "globalization" is striding around doing bad things of some kind. The only genuine cause Putin cites, genes, is race superstition, which a grown man who was honestly interested in people and the world around would have learned was and is, wrong.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Mar 19 2021 20:32 utc | 28

@ 27 steven... it was biden saying putin was a killer... that is the root here and no matter how it gets twisted, it is still a major faux pas on the part of biden who as it happens represents the american people for the present time.. i think the russians, chinese and iranians are right to challenge the usa on its complete lack of diplomacy... and yes, i still believe a culture of people do have unique traits that distinguish them from others.. i do believe it can be learned too though..

Posted by: james | Mar 19 2021 20:36 utc | 29

@ 24 Posted by: Peter Moritz

I understand that this is just semantics, but something as widespread as this has become in western media can have a big impact on perception of lazy westerners if the interpretation is incorrect. This should be obvious, regardless of the supposed "elegance" of the phrase.

"Takes one to know one" does not imply projection, it rather implies hypocrisy. Putin is not accusing Biden of hypocrisy, he is accusing Biden of projection. "Takes one to know one" gives a western audience the suggestion that Putin qualifies an admission of being a killer with an accusation that Biden is also a killer. Putin, in fact, does not do this. He only suggests that Biden is projecting and only projecting.

Posted by: Kapusta | Mar 19 2021 20:38 utc | 30

same deal as @ 26 dave constable notes too... accusing others of genocide when you have been the main merchant of death on the planet the past 40 or more years doesn't stand.. if anyone is the killer here it is the usa, so the irony isn't lost on everyone..

Posted by: james | Mar 19 2021 20:38 utc | 31

@Kapusta 8, 29
Thank you for the explanations and clarification of what Putin actually said, and what it implies. Facts matter.

Posted by: Norwegian | Mar 19 2021 20:44 utc | 32

in a shabby Alaskan hotel

Haha, nice)

Minister Lavrov today confirmed Putin's words, saying "[We] will be ready to cooperate only in those areas that are of interest to us, and only on terms that are beneficial to us".

In my opinion, the Chinese representatives gave a good answer to the American side, although this answer will obviously not be heard.
The Americans have completely lost the culture of negotiation. If there are no elementary human manners, then what kind of agreements can we talk about?
A sad picture. And dangerous. A madman with nuclear weapons (and chemical weapons, by the way) is not the best option for a reliable negotiating partner.

Posted by: alaff | Mar 19 2021 20:44 utc | 33

Posted by: ДжММ | Mar 19 2021 20:11 utc | 21

Thanks a lot for that one, Russian language like Spanish is rich in sayings and they're widely used, that's why on the previous thread I was asking for guidance to refine another adage that Zakharova used today. It has to sound good, with rhyme just like the original, and he who smelt it dealt it is music, what speech should be, if not always most of the time.

Posted by: Paco | Mar 19 2021 20:51 utc | 34

b Posted:

“The alternative to a rules-based order is a world in which might makes right and winner takes all and that would be a far more violent and unstable world,” Blinken said.

The 'rules based order' means 'do what we say' and is of course unacceptable. Here is how the Chinese replied:

What China and the international community follow or uphold is the United Nations-centered international system and the international order underpinned by international law, not what is advocated by a small number of countries of the so-called “rules-based” international order.

Say it to uncle sam. Say it every time they meet. The bankruptcy of the "rules based order" gang of five or six is a failure.

For all its apalling faults the UN and established international courts are the place to go. Suck it up uncle sam.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 19 2021 20:59 utc | 35

But when we evaluate other people, or even other states and nations, we are always facing a mirror, we always see ourselves in the reflection, because we project our inner selves onto the other person.

You know, I remember when we were children and played in the yard, we had arguments occasionally and we used to say: whatever you call me is what you are called yourself.

I believe the idiom in English is "'I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you say bounce off me and sticks to you."

Posted by: askod | Mar 19 2021 21:00 utc | 36

lola gives a few hints on Putin's comment.

https://irrussianality.wordpress.com/2021/03/18/on-a-roll/comment-page-1/#comment-37067

Posted by: LeaNder | Mar 19 2021 21:04 utc | 37

Thanks,b,for the interesting update.Times are speeding up,while USA president is slowing down.

Par hasard I watched chinese movie two days ago,where the Hongmen banquet was a feature.The names of the generals are Liu Bang and Xiang YU.A lot of sword fighting,big armies with spears and stuff.

In french it is called Le dernier Royaume,so I suppose the english title to be The Last Kingdom .
I take mandarin for audio,and french subtitles.Can't stand french doubling,with all its deliberate translation issues.

Posted by: willie | Mar 19 2021 21:16 utc | 38

Talk about translation,the best equivalent for the Putin quote from childhood,is maybe the dutch one:"Wat je zegt,ben je zelf!" that we used a lot when we were children.Literally:What you say you are it!.

Posted by: willie | Mar 19 2021 21:24 utc | 39

“The alternative to a rules-based order is a world in which might makes right and winner takes all and that would be a far more violent and unstable world,” Blinken said.

LOL.

You really have to wonder if the Americans believe their own bullshit about their hollowed "Rules Based International Order"?

The violent and unstable world is ALREADY here thanks to ... this very same American "Rules" Based Order.

Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Serbia, Somalia--these are just a few of the countries America has either invaded, bombed, or supported moderate jihadi Head-Choppers against to destabilize in the past generation.

Two decades of US “war on terror” responsible for displacing at least 37 million people and killing up to 12 million
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/09/09/cost-s09.html?view=print


Posted by: ak74 | Mar 19 2021 21:31 utc | 40

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/65172

For Pres Putin's EXACT words.

Yes, projection.

His words about the moral attributes of the US elites - he very carefully excludes the public are MUCH more significant!

Posted by: Powerandpeople | Mar 19 2021 21:31 utc | 41

This pseudo-tough guy posturing of Biden and Blinken is embarrassing. Putin didn't get where he is by being stupid.

Posted by: ian | Mar 19 2021 21:44 utc | 42

I also suspect that there are a fair number of people in Russia who don't mind having their leader thought of as a killer.

Posted by: ian | Mar 19 2021 21:47 utc | 43

"Biden slips while trying to 'walk and chew gum' at the same time"

Posted by: Forrest Gimp | Mar 19 2021 21:50 utc | 44

Well, the Outlaw US Empire team just got sacked three straight times and must now punt. Sophomoric attempts to twist Putin's words won't work. I highly suggest reading the entire Kremlin transcript b cited and I relink as it dovetails with Putin's speech at the anniversary celebration I cited and relink. Furthermore, in the area of historical research being undertaken in Russia to ensure historical events are recounted accurately, there's this current effort dealing with The Polish-Soviet War of 1919–1921 and The 1921 Treaty of Riga. Putin is speaking:

"Two states striving to achieve ambitious goals confronted each other during the Polish-Soviet War. Polish leaders perceived the reinstatement of the old-time borders of Rzeczpospolita as their task. Bolshevik leaders dreamed of a world revolution. The Polish Army’s offensive on the Belarusian and Ukrainian Soviet republics, linked with Soviet Russia by allied agreements, preceded fighting at the approaches to Warsaw in August 1920. I would like to recall that Polish forces had seized most of Belarus and all of Western Ukraine by late 1919, and that they and their allies, commanded by Symon Petlyura, had entered Kiev on May 7, 1920.

"Signed in Riga on March 18, 1921, the treaty touched upon territorial issues and was therefore largely similar to the 1919 Treaty of Versailles. Today, we can see that the then re-division of Europe, the often arbitrary and unfair demarcation of borders had stepped up confrontation between states and helped create conditions for a new world war.

"The Soviet side was forced to agree with the fact that Poland had established control over 50 percent of modern Belarus’ territory and 25 percent of modern Ukraine. The transfer of Belarusian and Ukrainian territories to another state did not meet the then ethnic, cultural or social realities. On the one hand, it facilitated discrimination against the local population; and, on the other hand, it helped encourage extreme nationalist ideas. We also recall the tragic fate of the Red Army soldiers who were taken prisoner; many of them perished in Polish camps."

As with earlier Great Patriotic War exhibitions, this exhibition has numerous aspects as described below that will surely interest other historians:

"The historical documentary exhibition The Polish-Soviet War of 1919–1921. The Treaty of Riga 1921, dedicated to the armed confrontation between Soviet Russia and Poland and the resolution of the conflict by diplomatic means opened on March 16 in Moscow. It displays historical documents from the holdings of the Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History, the Russian State Military Archive, the State Archive of the Russian Federation, the Russian State Archive of Modern History and other federal archives, the Foreign Policy Archive of the Russian Federation and the Foreign Policy Archive of the Russian Empire, contributed by the Foreign Ministry’s Department of History and Records, the Archive of the President of the Russian Federation and state archives of Belarus. The exhibition also features unique museum items, sound recordings and newsreels. An internet project with full-length electronic copies of over 1,000 archive documents is also part of the exhibition."

Here's the link to that project.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 19 2021 21:51 utc | 45

This is interesting. Apparently both the Russians and the Chinese have concluded that Biden intends to use "CornPop" faux-macho posturing as his foreign policy, and they have both decided that "f**k that, let's nip this in the bud".

Because it looks like they have decided they have had a gut-full of US "exceptionalism" and are quite determined to say so. To anyone, but especially to the Americans.

Going to be a lot of very confused people at Foggy Bottom. They may never have experienced this degree of contempt before.


Posted by: Yeah, Right | Mar 19 2021 22:08 utc | 46

ak74 @39--

I about fell on the floor when I read Blinken's words, my first thought being "this klutz has zero knowledge of history since 1588 and just admitted as much. In China, Blinken would never achieve any position of power.

The decadence of the Outlaw US Empire's government is like so many prions turning brain tissue into a swiss-cheese-like mass and then boasting about how finely tuned are its cognitive abilities. And when Harris is installed, we'll have a genuine novice in charge--The Blind leading the Blind.

It's no wonder the Chinese sought an audience with Lavrov ASAP.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 19 2021 22:10 utc | 47

James @28
contrived moulded whatever the case I leave this excerpt. I feel it hits the head.

Here's what journalist Joe Bageant wrote in 2007:
Much of the ongoing battle for America's soul is about healing the souls of these Americans and rousing them from the stupefying glut of commodity and spectacle. It is about making sure that they—and we—refuse to accept torture as the act of "heroes" and babies deformed by depleted uranium as the "price of freedom." Caught up in the great self-referential hologram of imperial America, force-fed goods and hubris like fattened steers, working people like World Championship Wrestling and Confederate flags and flat-screen televisions and the idea of an American empire. ("American Empire! I like the sound of that!" they think to themselves, without even the slightest idea what it means historically.) "The people" doing our hardest work and fighting our wars are not altruistic and probably never were. They don't give a rat's bunghole about the world's poor or the planet or animals or anything else. Not really. "The people" like cheap gas. They like chasing post-Thanksgiving Day Christmas sales. And if fascism comes, they will like that too if the cost of gas isn't too high and Comcast comes through with a twenty-four-hour NFL channel.
That is the American hologram. That is the peculiar illusion we live within, the illusion that holds us together, makes us alike, yet tells each of us we are unique. And it will remain in force until the whole shiteree comes down around our heads. Working people do not deny reality. They create it from the depths of their perverse ignorance, even as the so-called left speaks in non sequiturs and wonders why it cannot gain any political traction. Meanwhile, for the people, it is football and NASCAR and a republic free from married queers and trigger locks on guns. That's what they voted for—an armed and moral republic. And that's what we get when we stand by and watch the humanity get hammered out of our fellow citizens, letting them be worked cheap and farmed like a human crop for profit.
Genuine moral values have jack to do with politics. But in an obsessively religious nation, values remain the most effective smoke screen for larceny by the rich and hatred and fear by the rest. What Christians and so many quiet, ordinary Americans were voting for in the presidential elections of 2000 and 2004 was fear of human beings culturally unlike themselves, particularly gays and lesbians and Muslims and other non-Christians. That's why in eleven states Republicans got constitutional amendments banning same-sex marriage on the ballot. In nine of them the bill passed easily. It was always about fearing and, in the worst cases, hating "the other."
Being a southerner, I have hated in my lifetime. I can remember schoolyard discussions of supposed "nigger knifing" of white boys at night and such. And like most people over fifty, it shows in my face, because by that age we have the faces we deserve. Likewise I have seen hate in others and know it when I see it. And I am seeing more of it now than ever before in my lifetime, which is saying something considering that I grew up down here during the Jim Crow era. Fanned and nurtured by neoconservative elements, the hate is every bit equal to the kind I saw in my people during those violent years. Irrational. Deeply rooted. Based on inchoate fears.
The fear is particularly prevalent in the middle and upper-middle classes here, the very ones most openly vehement about being against using the words nigger and fuck. They are what passes for educated people in a place like Winchester. You can smell their fear. Fear of losing their advantages and money. Fear there won't be enough time to grab and stash enough geet to keep themselves and their offspring in Chardonnay and farting through silk for the next fifty years. So they keep the lie machinery and the smoke generators cranking full blast as long as possible, hoping to elect another one of their own kind to the White House—Democratic or Republican, it doesn't matter so long as they keep the scam going. The Laurita Barrs speak in knowing, authoritative tones, and the inwardly fearful house painter and single-mom forklift driver listen and nod. Why take a chance on voting for a party that would let homos be scout masters?
(Dear Hunting with Jesus: Dispatches from America's Class War, chapter 2)

Posted by: ld | Mar 19 2021 22:20 utc | 48

@willie | 38

French kids too say : « c’est celui qui dit qui est », literally « it is the one who says, who is ».
Perhaps it can be translated in a less literal way as : I know you are but what am I.

Posted by: Leuk | Mar 19 2021 22:21 utc | 49

Our bought or bot, CIA shill steven t johnson is back?

Posted by: Bruce Lee Marvin Gay | Mar 19 2021 22:25 utc | 50

askod @ 35, in New Zealand as children we used to say, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me!" Putin's answer does make the point, doesn't it, that the statements were rather childish. I would hope most people see through childish games with mistranslations also. No, that's not exactly correct - it's more than childishness there.

Thanks to those giving accurate translation - makes me decide I need to learn Russian! C'mon guys, it can't be that hard! And if I can do it, so can Biden; I am older than he is, I think. And maybe then he might catch a glimpse of Putin's soul, let alone that of his country.

How shameful to have insults thrown by US leadership at both China and Russia in less than a week! Is that a record?

Posted by: juliania | Mar 19 2021 22:28 utc | 51

@15

My son's (twins, fraternal) have been involved in a study since they were born (TEDS). They were genetically tested during their childhood. They are 97.8% genetically identical, yet they look nothing like each other. Massive change can occur with only the slightest variation. This is not a racist observation by Putin

This is not racism.

Posted by: Some Random Passerby | Mar 19 2021 22:31 utc | 52

@aquadraht 25: "At least in the conduct between civilized countries, a minimum level of protocol and respect matters."

Well, the US is obviously in a deep crisis: riots all over the place, the southern border is a mess, and the government even needs the national guard to protect itself from the people.

Under the circumstances, one should expect the establishment to act hysterically. It's just a symptom.

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Mar 19 2021 22:32 utc | 53

The madness of the Outlaw Empire is not about to shrink from bringing down the curtain on the human race, if that's what it takes to see their power of command obeyed. The US, as it is today, doesn't respect any nation's sovereignty and is mostly indifferent to allies and foes alike. The regime considers itself the only sovereign worthy of such title on earth; and expects to be allowed to run the table at its pleasure, or else it will supervise the burning down of the house.

Biden meanders about, not even possessed of his right mind, holding on to the delusions and lies of several presidents who lately came before him; and he is just the man to keep all the fires of destruction burning, while the torture of innocence is unceasing, and as the arrogant demands made against other countries become more absurd. What else is more obvious? These are the things we have seen foreshadowed before and after 9/11.

As long ago as the 80s Reagan was told about the reality of nuclear winter. In A Man Without a Country, Kurt Vonnegut described how scientists explained to G.W. Bush that a nuclear exchange of even a moderate duration and size, could still depopulate the earth of most of its people. The Bush Administration, toying with the idea of deploying baby nukes, for strategic exigency, short of total war, went with "guesswork" rather than prudent scientific advice. It was their best guess that the circumspect, abbreviated use of nukes wouldn't destroy humanity itself, or cause ice age conditions, or bring about global starvation.

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 19 2021 22:37 utc | 54

Re Sadde @3 "What a bunch of amateurish megalomaniac idiots. It was an exhibition of a total lack of tact, self-perception, decency or any equilibrium."

Seems like just the other day I was reading the same description about Pompeo lol. And yet somehow this is much worse, as we have a clearly demented, recently installed "president" who can't make it up a flight of stairs or give a press conference, who has the nuclear football following him around 24/.7.

Been nice knowing y'all.

Posted by: Perimetr | Mar 19 2021 22:55 utc | 55

Well Russia has been very seriously preparing for total war for some years now, and China too has caught that drift and begun to do the same. By comparison, the US is ready for aggravation, but nothing beyond that. The US has no capability for war.

How then, for the free nations of the world to defeat the US? One could surmise that the best way would be to force the US to accept defeat. Iran already showed the way. The lesson is not that hard to understand, although the tactics are obviously more complex. Who will punch the bully? Because we all know that this is what causes the bully to slink away, and to behave a little better.

It begins with words, because that's what the US likes to fight with, treating then merely as weapons, treating them with contempt. And now words of contempt itself, as Yeah Right @45 points out, are being driven forward like a moving wall against the US.

First come the words. Next will come...whatever will come, but it is a certainty that the Russia/China team has every contingency war-gamed.

As Piotr Berman points out in the previous thread, the US neurotic dynamic is to escalate blindly until it achieves control. This is the dynamic that must be defeated. Obviously, this will involve situations in which the US has nothing left to escalate with (situations that don't allow the nuke specter)...at which point, the US has to slink away - under cover of words of bluster, to be sure, to salve the ego, but slink away even so.

And a few more of these lessons of defeat will re-train that ego, over time, lessons carefully administered, and all watched over by armies of loving grace.

Posted by: Grieved | Mar 19 2021 23:05 utc | 56

It's not really any worse than Obama calling Russia "a gas station" or Trump calling the many countries around the world devastated by US intervention "shitholes". The old British empire took pride in the many countries that it exploited economically. The new British empire is just as happy creating scorched earth conditions in much of the world, if only to deny access to economic competitors. The US had dreams of conquering all these countries and occupying them, but the reality has set in that policing several billion is beyond the capabilities of the US, NATO, or the UN. So the best they can do is render them failed states like large parts of Mexico by supplying arms to insurgencies.

Posted by: Les | Mar 19 2021 23:06 utc | 57

Blenkin and co just got thoroughly washed in a chinese laundry, washed clean dried and starched, ready to put on their fully cleaned washed selfs for taste of some Russian pastries. Soon after on the coming Iranian 13th day of the new year (thirteenth out) they can go for an Iranian picnic for taste of gourmet delicious persian soup (Ash). I really enjoyed Chinese exchange with shining city on hill guys,
Happy Iranian new year and New century (1400) to you all, MOA and b.

Posted by: kooshy | Mar 19 2021 23:10 utc | 58

Could translate casually as: Project much?

Posted by: Rusty Pipes | Mar 19 2021 23:13 utc | 59

suffice it to say, I love the Chinese (and they highly cultured ways etc) when they talk and act like this to the barbarians aka the americans


everything the Chinese FM said was correct, and spot on.

Blinken and Bush are as boorish and rude, perhaps even more condescending than pompeo and Trump - But it is hard to choose between the lesser of two american evils

Posted by: michaelj72 | Mar 19 2021 23:14 utc | 60

The editors at Strategic-Culture see it this way:

"In a desperate bid to thwart the strategic partnership between Russia and Europe, Washington is resorting to ever-more frantic threats of sanctions and other disruptive measures. Biden is playing the personal insult card in a gambit for blowing up bilateral relations with Russia as a way to sabotage Nord Stream 2.

"It’s a pathetic move, one that actually speaks more of America’s historic enfeeblement rather than pretensions of power. Russia would do well to stay calm and let the Americans make fools of themselves."

It seems Russia's doing just that--attending to the vital business of developing its nation and peoples. Russia's geared for numerous patriotic celebrations throughout the year, and Biden's comments were made on the eve of Crimean reunification with Russia, which only served to cement Russians closer and hold Putin in even greater esteem. Talk about an Own Goal!

Outlaw US Empire Nord Stream policy is close to being the same as literally torpedoing it, making it an act of war against the EU and Russia. Somehow, I don't think Blinken understands that fundamental fact.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 19 2021 23:15 utc | 61

The fact that Blinken has to read what he supposedly thinks compared with the Chineee representatives and diplomats like Lavrov, Zakarov, and even Putin who know their thoughts without someone else writing their script
Same as all the MSM. They all appear to get their news sent to them in writing and maybe a few fluff up the news but they know what the agenda is.

Posted by: arby | Mar 19 2021 23:20 utc | 62

So in just a matter of weeks, the US just antagonized both Russia and China.

This seems a surprise to me, US is getting very bold, I thought they would be more active but subversive, but this is just straight up insulting your opponents.

@ willie

I also watched that film, surely one of the modern chinese's greatest.

Liu Bang vs Xiang Yu, one of the greatest tales ever of divergent ideas (Liu Bang was the founder of Han dynasty who later united the chinese into a Han common identity, while Xiang Yu was a Chu nationalist who rebelled against Qin dynasty for merging all chinese kingdoms into one and erasing their identities and languages) and what can be said to be the proto-Romance of the 3 Kingdoms. I only wish the Han-Chu Contention is as popular as ROTK in pop culture.

Posted by: Smith | Mar 19 2021 23:23 utc | 63

"I know that the United States and its leaders are determined to maintain certain relations with us, but on matters that are of interest to the United States and on its terms. Even though they believe we are just like them, we are different. We have a different genetic, cultural and moral code. But we know how to uphold our interests. We will work with the United States, but in the areas that we are interested in and on terms that we believe are beneficial to us. They will have to reckon with it despite their attempts to stop our development, despite the sanctions and insults. They will have to reckon with this."

This statement is a positive, that is the mark of a government that adheres to real values, beneficial to the growth of humanity, and not just for the enrichment of a greedy minority of it's citizens.

How utterly refreshing....

Posted by: vetinLA | Mar 19 2021 23:37 utc | 64

two very insightful posts: patrick armstrong @ SC & spengler (david goldman) @ asiatimes: both on kagan, neo cons & putin. to all a good weekend.

Posted by: emersonreturn | Mar 19 2021 23:46 utc | 65

ld @ 47 posted, in part; "Working people do not deny reality. They create it from the depths of their perverse ignorance, even as the so-called left speaks in non sequiturs and wonders why it cannot gain any political traction. "

Post is a bit long, but well worth a read. Thanks ld....

Read it people.....

Posted by: vetinLA | Mar 20 2021 0:03 utc | 66

@james 23
so, yes i personally believe a nation that hasn't completely given over to the corporate agenda does have a particular unique character which would include a moral and ethical one too... it is what is being erased with globalism too as i see it...

perfect james. wise words
thank you

Posted by: migueljose | Mar 20 2021 0:09 utc | 67

emersonreturn @64--

I'm in the middle of Armstrong's essay and am at the first reference to Kagan's vision:

"What should that role be? Benevolent global hegemony. Having defeated the 'evil empire,' the United States enjoys strategic and ideological predominance. The first objective of U.S. foreign policy should be to preserve and enhance that predominance by strengthening America’s security, supporting its friends, advancing its interests, and standing up for its principles around the world.'

It's absolutely clear that Kagan has no clue as to the reality of what is actually the objective of the Neoliberal Parasites running the Outlaw US Empire; for aside from "advancing its interests," the Parasites have zero motivation to do any of that as their sole ambition/goal is to vacuum up all the wealth they can and leave a shell just as they planned and failed with Russia, but have succeeded elsewhere. And as for principles, the reality is it has none, nor does it have any friends, just vassals and victims. This analogy by Armstrong's excellent:

"The U.S. is sitting on a dragon and it daren’t get off or the dragon will kill it. But because it can’t kill the dragon, it must sit on it forever: no escape. And dragon’s eggs are hatching out all around: think how much bigger the Russian, Chinese and Iranian dragons are today than they were a quarter-century ago when Kagan & Co so confidently started PNAC; think how bigger they’ll be in another....

"But the more sanctions, the stronger Russia gets: as an analogy, think of sanctions on Russia as similar to the over-use of antibiotics – Russia is becoming immune."

And tying it all up is this excellent summation:

"Has there ever been a subject on which people have been so wrong for so long as Russia? How many times have they said Putin’s finished? Remember when cheese was going to bring him down? Always a terminal economic crisis. A year ago they were sure COVID would do it. A U.S. general is in Ukraine and Kiev’s heavy weapons are moving east but, no, it’s Putin who, for ego reasons – and his “failing” economy – wants the war. Why do they keep doing it? Well, it’s easy money – Putin (did we tell you he was in the KGB?) wants to expand Russia and rule forever; therefore, he’s about to invade somebody. He doesn’t, no problem, our timely warning scared him off; we’ll change the date and regurgitate it next year. In the meantime his despotic rule trembles because of some-triviality-of-the-moment. These pieces write themselves: the anti-Russia business is the easiest scam ever. And there’s the difficulty of admitting you’re wrong: how can somebody like Kagan, such a triumphantasiser back then, admit that it’s all turned to dust and worse, turned to dust because they took his advice? Much better to press on – it’s not as if anybody in the lügenpresse will call him out or deny him space. Finally, these people are locked in psychological projection: because they can only envisage military expansion, they assume the other guy is equally obsessed and so they must expand to counter his expansion. They suspect everybody of suspecting them. Their hostility sees hostility everywhere. Their belligerence finds belligerence. The hyperpower is forever compelled to respond to lesser powers. They look outside, see themselves and fear; in their mental universe the USA is arrogantly strong and fearfully weak at the same time."

The Walking Dead is finally becoming a metaphor for the Outlaw US Empire, its policies, and what it terms values--which aren't values but vices. But TWD was fiction and was thus capable of reforming itself. The Empire's goals and polices are essentially the same as in 1940 and even further back to 1913, and haven't changed very much, being just as illegal and immoral then as now. What's different are the "Dragons" which didn't exist in 1918 or 1944, and the Parasites have almost total control that's finally seeing domestic pushback.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 20 2021 0:11 utc | 68

Some Random Passerby@51 notes that despite the very similar genomes, the fraternal twin sons are somehow different people. Shocking as it may seem, genetically identical twins are also different people. It's not quite clear what controversial point is supposed to be made. Sensible people who lack an indecent commitment to reactionary ideology know this.

Putin is not saying that people have different genes and different personalities, Putin is saying that the Russian genes are similar and American genes are similar and because the genes are similar, the members of each group are similar enough that each group can be distinguished in a uniform way from the other group. That simply being born Russian or American is enough to make them a certain way. This, in spite of the fact that as multinational states both Russian Federation and the US have wildly variant genomes.* In other words, the point about how similar genes doesn't make similar personalities is actually *against* Putin's ignorant BS, being the opposite of what Putin said. So, yeah, Putin said something racist. The only real defense is that Putin was babbling like a senile idiot. Sixty eight is youngish for dementia, but neurological impairments are not moral judgments handed out to the unworthy, they are diseases, dysfunctions of an organ, the brain. Which is why people who say stupid stuff but are popular here, like Reagan and Trump and George W. Bush, aren't abused as senile.

*As far as I know, the amount of genetic variation in the human species is very small compared to older species. The mere passage of time accumulates mutations, that is, genetic variation. Modern humans, the evidence to date shows, began separating from other hominid species perhaps 200 000 years ago. And the process of fully separating and speciating probably wasn't complete till maybe 70 000 years ago, due to interbreeding with Neandertal and Denisovan.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Mar 20 2021 0:12 utc | 69

Ahh yes. Another translation from a foreign leader for the ever-inquisitive American public who would check three or more sources before believing the MSM version. (Sarcasm intended)

Reminds me of Ahmadinejad and his infamous quote “ Israel should be wiped from the map.” The MSM translation for “Zionism should be wiped from the pages of history.”

And look how much mileage they got out of that one.

Posted by: Alpi | Mar 20 2021 0:12 utc | 70

recently installed "president" who can't make it up a flight of stairs or give a press conference, who has the nuclear football following him around 24/.7. <- Posted by: Perimetr | Mar 19 2021 22:55 utc | 54

History of American presidency had worse falls as we are reminded by New York Post.

"President Biden’s wince-inducing series of stumbles while boarding Air Force One on Friday calls to mind Gerald Ford’s 1975 fall on the same stairs — a minor tumble that forever tarred him as a clumsy oaf.

Chevy Chase pilloried Ford in a series of ruthless and hilarious “Saturday Night Live” skits — even though the object of his ridicule was just 62 years old, and an ex-University of Michigan football star who avidly skied and golfed."

It was the very athletic ability of Gerald Ford that magnified his fall, all the way down. When Biden started cautiously and kept his hand on the rail at all times, Ford climbed "with a spring in his step", but, alas, he missed one step.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Mar 20 2021 0:13 utc | 71

Bruce Lee Marvin Gay@49 is silly enough to think the CIA is anti-racist, or at least pro-science enough, not to spout simple-minded Putinesque drivel about genetic code. The CIA is backwards, scientifically, politically, socially, economically and, yes, morally. The glorification of the CIA as an organization committed to the truth about genetics is deplorable.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Mar 20 2021 0:14 utc | 72

https://www.yahoo.com/news/iran-probably-already-bomb-192403407.html

The deception and corruption in current warmongering is simply astounding. So, this "expert" omnisciently "knows" Iran has nuclear weapons but "knows" they don't have enough yet to fend off the US/Israel. Thus, war is needed or a huge space defense program to neutralize them. Really? Wow !

Nobody ever mentions that Iranian leaders have repeatedly said that if the Palestinian problem was fixed, their opposition to Israel would end (which it would have to, given that leverage against Israel would evaporate with not much left to do).

Posted by: Eighthman | Mar 20 2021 0:29 utc | 73

Here's Sputnik's initial report on the Alaska meet. Not much reference to commerce. Here's an excerpt:

"Chinese State Councilor and Foreign Minister Wang Yi, who accompanied Yang to the talks, told CGTN that their side had made clear to the Americans that China takes its sovereignty very seriously and warned them not to 'underestimate China's determination to defend its territory, to defend its people, and maintain its righteous interests.'

"Washington has criticized China's security policies in Xinjiang and Hong Kong, where Western-backed separatist forces have created chronic unrest, as well as its longstanding claim to rule Taiwan, an autonomous island ruled by the Republic of China that lost the civil war in mainland China in 1949, when the socialist People's Republic of China was formed. The US technically recognizes Beijing's claim to be the sole legitimate representative of China, but in reality is the primary backer of the Taiwanese government. Beijing says all of these are internal matters and not of Washington's concern."

Very little's reported of the Outlaw US Empire's response. This little bit doesn't bode well:

"US State Department officials noted they did not see the Alaska summit as the beginning of a new mechanism or dialogue."

I see that as a confession that they aren't agreement capable since they can't even continue a dialogue.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 20 2021 0:30 utc | 74

i've been a reader of moa for quite a few years now, but never contributed to the forum. mostly because after a while i found what i wanted to say anyway, and why pile on? i really enjoy the civility of the forum, and it's internationality. And of course b's insights. as a german myself I share many points of view with him in matters i have knowledge in, or think that i do. for example i think that trump sure might be seen as a desaster by many, but it was a gift to europe, and germany in particular, because he openend the eyes of many, many people here who for decades thought murrica is our friend, our big brother, who will always protect us from the evil of the world - namely communism, russia and lately china. a majority of the people here, as well as in the rest of the so called "western world" have been brainwashed for about 7 decades to think that way, even when america committed the most obvious, heinous, horrible crimes against humanity and our civilization as a whole. there was always a spin, "human rights", "democracy", "free trade" and so on, values that had to be "defended" - when in reality it was always an offensive aggression or even a "pre-emptive strike". people just swallowed what the media fed them and went on with their daily chores.

trump changed that, suddenly the ugly side of the empire became visible, and i will always be grateful for that. because now it cannot be hidden anymore. it wasn't just the unruly behaviour of a "new rich" and uneducated bully who accidentally became president. politically, the general attitude was always the same, trump only worded it much more obvious, making it harder for politicians and media to spin. that's why our politicians and media (for the most part fed by trans-atlantic "think tanks") hated him almost more than americans themselves - he made their lies obvious and transparent. if it wasn't so sad, it sometimes was almost funny to see them squirm, having to explain why our friend and protector suddenly became so selfish and hostile.

All of them welcomed of course the new harris administration, being so progressive, just and friendly again - only to witness a change of paradigm they probably didn't even think trump was capable of, or willing to: i think in later years, this week will mark the "official" beginning of the new cold war era. this behaviour against russia and china was not a slap, but a punch in the face and will NEVER be forgiven nor forgotten. the only question for europe is: does it finally have the balls to emancipate and stand up against the bully? or will it submit and become a collateral damage of it's downfall? in form of a nuclear wasteland maybe? i think that nord stream II is a turning point. if germany caves in here, there's little hope to get rid of the leash for it and the whole of europe. if it stands tall, europe might become a buffer instead of a frontline. knowing and seeing our politicians, i'd say it doesn't look good.

Posted by: xototox | Mar 20 2021 0:34 utc | 75

@Posted by: Grieved | Mar 19 2021 23:05 utc | 55:

...., the US neurotic dynamic is to escalate blindly until it achieves control. This is the dynamic that must be defeated.

Yes that's problem all right, but can you ever defeat that dynamic given that the gorilla owns 10,000 nukes and has no moral qualms whatsoever of using them? Until a near perfect anti-nuke defense system is developed I surmise the world would just have to live with, and get used to, the juvenile antics of King Kong because it has stated time and again it would escalate all the way up to using its nukes, because that's what they are for according to a former Sec. of State.

I'm a pessimist on this issue. I'm afraid we'll just have to endure and live with a wild beast for a while to come.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Mar 20 2021 0:35 utc | 76

The Alaska talks have ended and the Global Times Editor writes:

"China and the US are two major world powers. No matter how many disputes they have, the two countries should not impulsively break their relations. Coexistence and cooperation are the only options for China and the US. Whether we like it or not, the two countries should learn to patiently explore mutual compromises and pursue strategic win-win cooperation." [My Emphasis]

The big question: Does the Outlaw US Empire possess enough wisdom to act in that manner.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 20 2021 0:44 utc | 77

The notion a state like the Russian Federation has a moral code is treating the state as if it had a soul with free will and moral responsibility. In the context of talking about projection and analyzing behavior by reference to ones own psychology or experience or personal values, like a government actually has these things, like its a person? Perhaps the best explanation is that "we" is a kind of royal "we" and Putin is speaking as the decider.

The notion that culture is a code, like a legal code, prescribing behavior and inherited from the past but only modified by due authority is doubtful too. Culture as the way of life of people, which they make, seems more plausible than abstract ideas making the people. Also, in context it sort of hints at the notion that these codes are separate-but-equal, all of equal validity. The problem is that separate is never equal. Everyone who says so is wrong.

All of the above is hookum and Bullshit....

Steven J. Johnson has shown himself totall immersed in the Kool-aid...

Russia is a classical construct with more than 1000 years of history and culture. These are part and parcel of what Russia is and who her people are....

The USA on the other hand, has never coalesced into a cultural entity.... Most of US culture was created by advertizers during the post WWII period..... The rock & roll generation... hippies.... etc.

A state based upon a covenant between itself and God... mediated by orthodox christianity... is totally foreign to Steve and most US denizens...

But it exists.... Ditto for China... now 5000 years young.... the embodiment of confucianism... meritocracy...

All foreign to Steve and Blinken and Biden....

INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Mar 20 2021 0:47 utc | 78

@ ld | Mar 19 2021 22:20 utc | 47... thanks......

although it was written in 2007, i think it is still very relevant here... this might go into the difficulty one of our posters here as with the differences between different countries.. personally i believe much of culture is created, as opposed to inborn... i guess this is the chicken verses the egg question of what comes first.... i was thinking of how russia has a culture which has the great classical composers... the usa has had many great composers, but it doesn't have a tradition of classical music composition that reaches as far back or as nearly developed... maybe i am expressing my ignorance... on the other hand russia has never had composers of the nature of ellington, gershwin, cole porter and etc. etc. either, so maybe it evens out in all of this... what is it that creates a culture?? i don't actually know, but i don't really think it is about the genes.. maybe it becomes about the genes immersed in a particular culture... there is so much that is great about the usa and its history, but there is a lot of darkness connected to it as well... it has been in a leadership role since sometime before the 2nd world war, but at this point it seems like it is fading and being passed by the advances of other cultures in some regards here... and ironically the usa wants to dictate to others about a 'rule based laws' or whatever the silly euphemism is.. the usa will still have its blues, rhythm and blues, country and jazz music which i consider very much an important part of its culture, but the role of leadership in other areas seems to be failing... these music forms i mention are very much a part of incorporating other cultures too - african slavery being a huge influence in all these musical styles..

so, on this note i share a video that i am listening to at the moment which involves one of my favourite pianists - edward simon, who coincidentally is from venezuala but moved to the usa at an early age... he does a duo here from the guitarist romero lubambo Romero Lubambo + Edward Simon march 13 2021 i cued it up to where romero first starts playing...

@ 66 migueljose... thanks! you might enjoy this video i linked to above.. i think at some point we can merge and go beyond our limitations too.. music is capable of bringing people together across boundaries.. as a consequence my interest in music is something i embrace on this level and find myself drawn to other cultures from the musical angle...

so here is the white house press briefing for today on this thread topic - Department Press Briefing – March 19, 2021

here is the segment on china-usa meeting.. interestingly our prime minister trudeau mention the issue of the 2 michaels held in china and the phrase something to the effect "china must adhere to the 'rule based law' b.s. was at the top of his words in the radio when i was in the car earlier..

"QUESTION: (Inaudible) Alaska, if you’re able to talk about that. Obviously, there’s been a lot of reporting since yesterday about how sort of tense the initial encounter was. And there’s been discussions of – I think both sides have accused the other of breaking protocol in those initial exchanges. But I wonder if – does the State Department – based on the tone of that first meeting, does that give you any concern for the future of the relationship with China and the possibility of reaching some agreements or getting some achievables out of these meetings? Thank you.

MS PORTER: Thank you for your question, Simon, and just as a response to that, of course, as you know, Secretary Blinken and NSA Sullivan had their first meetings with Director Yang Jiechi and State Councilor Wang Yi, and of course, are in sessions this morning. And these were serious discussions. Again, I’ll just reiterate something that NSA Sullivan said. And of course, to your point about it, the – being contentious or not, again, we – he said we don’t see conflict, but of course, welcome stiff competition.

Again, this was a single meeting, and again, we know that sometimes these diplomatic presentations can be exaggerated or maybe even aimed at a domestic audience, but we’re not letting the theatrics from the other side stop us from doing what we were intending to do in Alaska, which is lay out our principles as well as our expectations and have these tough conversations early that we need to have with the PRC.

Let’s go to the line of Edward Keenan.

QUESTION: (Inaudible) of the Alaska meetings, the two Michaels, Kovrig and – the two Canadian Michaels who are being held as political prisoners in China, widely perceived as leverage against the United States, who are going to trial now as these meetings take place. Secretary Blinken and President Biden expressed their desire to see those two Michaels released when they met with the Canadian prime minister recently. I wonder to what extent those cases are up for discussion in Alaska right now, and if so, like, to what extent and how?

MS PORTER: Well, let me start off by saying that the United States continues to publicly call on the PRC to end the arbitrary and unacceptable detentions of the Canadians citizens Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig. And again, the United States is deeply concerned by the PRC’s decision to hold a closed-court hearing with the Canadian citizens. Obviously, no one from – no diplomat from Canada or the U.S. were involved in that. And we’re also deeply alarmed by a report that the PRC will commence the trial of Canadian citizen Michael Kovrig on March 22nd and we renew our call for PRC authorities to attend this trial.

We’ll always just reiterate that we stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Canada in calling for their immediate release, and we also continue to condemn their lack of minimum procedural protections during their two-year arbitrary detention."


Posted by: james | Mar 20 2021 0:56 utc | 79

@ xototox | Mar 20 2021 0:34 utc | 73... thanks for your comment... i was typing while you posted it... it is helpful and sheds light on some comments from another thread where citizenX and a few others had with b giving trump a free ride.. it is interesting in the light what you say.. trump stripped the facade off things.. that is always what i have felt...

Posted by: james | Mar 20 2021 0:59 utc | 80

@ kooshy | Mar 19 2021 23:10 utc | 57

Happy Iranian new year and New century (1400) to you all, MOA and b. - thanks kooshy! and to you as well... i will order so ash soup here on vancouver island from a wonderful persian cook in honour of you and the iranian people! i have had this soup a few times the past couple of years..

Posted by: james | Mar 20 2021 1:05 utc | 81

Peter Moritz is right. The rest of you are reading the English idiom "It takes one to know one" too literally. But that in itself is a problem, indicating that no one understands the idiom correctly any more. For that reason alone, a different translation is needed.

Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Mar 20 2021 1:16 utc | 82

Thanks James "Ash Reshteh" is Iranian Noodle soup "Nooshe Jaan" meaning "to your health/life " . But traditional Iranian New Year food which is eaten at equinox regardless of time is green herb rice with fish which is "Sabzie Polo with Mahi" vancouver is beautiful lots of Iranians there they must have good Iranian food. wish you best

Posted by: kooshy | Mar 20 2021 1:26 utc | 83

james @ 77, I did try to support your earlier message about Russia's soul, but somehow my computer decided to go offline right at that moment so my message was lost, but migueljose said it better, so I left it at that.

I agree with your point about music, and the same could be said for many nations that it is in their composers or even just the music of the people that great soul can be found. Perhaps in his bemusement that was what Biden was thinking of when he couldn't find 'soul' in Putin on a previous occasion. I would suggest he take a look at Putin's New Year message to the Russian people. If that's not soul I don't know what is! I'm a lover of classical music myself, and what can one say about Bach or Beethoven - music of the spheres on both counts. Also I simply love that Orthodox church music is the human voice alone, and Rachmaninoff wrote a liturgical accompaniment for that, also a Vespers. Other great Russian composers in that vein as well. But it seems to me that all countries have soul. Even the New Zealand national anthem sung in maori - there's soul for you!

Posted by: juliania | Mar 20 2021 1:48 utc | 84

The Americans have completely lost the culture of negotiation. If there are no elementary human manners, then what kind of agreements can we talk about? A sad picture. And dangerous. A madman with nuclear weapons (and chemical weapons, by the way) is not the best option for a reliable negotiating partner.

alaff | Mar 19 2021 20:44 utc | 32:

And Bio-weapons.


Posted by: Ian2 | Mar 20 2021 1:53 utc | 85

I suspect Blinken/Sullivan/Biden need to show that they are "tough" to the Chinese in public because otherwise, they will be roasted by the 78 millions Trump supporters for being "weak" to China compared with Trump. Behind the close door, Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi characterized the talks to be NOT "very tense." I believe Biden actually is quite keen to get some "achievements" from the Chinese side, probably not realistically in this meeting, but hopefully in the near future.

Ha, but the weather is cold, the hotel is shoddy, and the Chinese delegate had to have instant noodle for lunch - that sounds like a very low budget “Hongmen Banquet” by the Americans. Maybe they are still waiting for their 1.9 trillion stimulus check?

Posted by: d dan | Mar 20 2021 2:12 utc | 86

karlof1 @Mar20 0:11 #67

It's absolutely clear that Kagan has no clue as to the reality of what is actually the objective of the Neoliberal Parasites running the Outlaw US Empire.

Why do you give him the benefit of the doubt?

Are we really to believe that Kagan, and others like him, talk of these things for DECADES and yet aren't aware of the ramifications?

IMO it is absolutely clear that he knows the neoliberal reality as well as the neocon and neocolonial realities.

But we are supposed to avoid cynicism and be polite so as to not be thought a malcontent?

=

@karlof1 The need for more cynicism is a theme of mine (which I've written about at moa many times) so please don't respond in a knee-jerk way.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 20 2021 2:17 utc | 87

Despite a roomful of hot air amerikans will always be considered War Criminals by the rest of us

I have to admit having become totally bored with the words which any gang of elites from any nation whose population is far too large to have the types at the top comprehend much less represent citizens' points of view, spout.

I get that there are fans of particular nations here, who believe some of these nation states have more humane policies than other nation states, but all of them however humane are essentially spouting toop down driven attitudes.
We know that amerika with its narrow & prescriptive "you can vote for anyone as long as it is someone from one of these two virtually identical political organisations" system pays little attention to their citizens' views. Unfortunately humans being humans, once a person gains a little power their priorities focus on retaining & increasing power, so that after time, no matter how egalitarian things may have been at the start, a shift to imbalance between the governors and the governed is inevitable.
It is impossible to imagine that President Xi Jinping would do as Mao Zedong did and hand power to the people, especially the nation's young people to trigger the 1966 Cultural Revolution.

One thing is for sure though, that is however many may have died during the cultural revolution, the casualties were confined to China's citizens and the casualties & atrocities were infinitesimal compared to the murders, rapes and savagery committed by amerika's war upon the people of Indochina.
IOW 50+ years ago China moved to resolve generational differences with an internal, domestic debate, whilst amerika tried to resolve that issue by indoctrinating its young people into a thoroughly racist anti-asian POV, then sent their youth to "kick out the jams" on the heads of the people of Vietnam, Laos & Cambodia.
The results were horrific and since courtesy of TV, they were far better documented than the horror inflicted upon the citizens of Korea less than a decade before have stuck in all non-amerikans minds ever since.

I have sounded off here at MoA quite a few times that most amerikans view the Indochina conflict negatively because it was such a waste of 'young amerikan' lives, rather than the way the rest of us see it, that amerika butchered and raped their way through Indochina without the slightest remorse.
Last week I stumbled across an old documentary released back in 1972 "Winter Soldier". The film documents the 1971 Winter Soldier hearing held by Vietnam Vets Against War.

VVAW had tried to stop the Indochina slaughter by the standard means - protests, marches, contacting politicians, all to no avail. So then they came up with the 'Winter Soldier' hearing which had veterans of the war against the people of Indochina, telling their stories of the atrocities they had committed.
The witnesses came from across the range of amerika's military; from grunts - surprisingly most were volunteers rather than draftees, to a Marine captain who served as a helicopter pilot.

These guys who returned to amerika lauded as heroes while deep down feeling nothing but Guilt & shame, make it clear that My Lai was no outlier, it was SOP.

It is also clear from what they tell us of their boot camp experience that racist anti-asian indoctrination featured big time in their training which led them to regard all Vietnamese as the enemy.

The behaviour got worse and worse, particularly rapes and the mutilation of children, once the troops realised no one was would restrict their cruel antics against those they all considered to be less than human. Senior officers either joined in or 'looked the other way'.
Most of this documentary is in the form of testimony as cameras were generally kept away from the 'fun' but even so I found just hearing the stories too much to bear.

Anyway although copies of 'Winter Soldier' do become available on You Tube from time to time, they can be hard to find and are frequently taken down, so if anyone does want to know what is commonplace for the brave amerikan military, they can download a copy of Winter Soldier from here.

The hearings likely did the job eventually, in that the thugs in control of amerika got the message that if the war continued, more and more truth about the scale & horror of awful amerikan atrocities would become public and that would be counter to satiating these elite thugs' greed inside and outside amerika. A peace agreement was signed and VVAW went back to emphasising the damage done to amerikan soldiers rather than the horrors inflicted upon a much, much larger Indochinese civilian population.

This is why BidenCorp are confidently denying their crimes while asserting all these other nations are killers, simply because amerikans have never been required to comprehend the true scale of the crimes amerika has committed upon their (mostly unjustly selected, amerikan created) enemies.

All the words spouted by elites only ever reinforce prevailing attitudes. Change in the way amerika views itself will only be effected when amerikans are forced to honestly consider all the crimes which have been committed in their name.
I'm not holding my breath, neither do I see much point in any analysis of who said what to whom as words are worthless in the face of fell deeds.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Mar 20 2021 2:25 utc | 88

@ 73 Posted by: xototox
@ 78 Posted by: james

Thanks for your perspective, xot! Interesting insights.

trump changed that, suddenly the ugly side of the empire became visible

I've heard this about Trump a lot, but I've always wondered why Trump was the ultimate catalyst for this epiphany. You would think that the Iraq War should have been that watershed moment, or even Libya (and perhaps they were for many, like me). I suppose from the perspective of inter-imperialist relations in the first world, a lack of decorum of the level of Trump's is more anomalous and egregious than the imposition of death and destruction of people in the global south.

Posted by: Kapusta | Mar 20 2021 2:37 utc | 89

Mr. Dr. George W Oprisko

Russia and Iran represent two countries which are centered, each in their own manner, around their own ideas and ideals of what Justice is. They are both a country, a culture, and a civilization.

China used to be centered, it had Tao. It does not hold it any more.

France used to be centered too, not any longer. It is a sin, in France, that Arabs or sub-Saharan Africans can never be Cartesian Frenchmen. It is like admitting that the French Revolution was a very bad idea.

Posted by: Fyi | Mar 20 2021 2:39 utc | 90

Mr. Id

Truly dreadful but very likely true portrait of America and not only the South; of which not much has remained after the mass migrations from the North in these past 40 years.

My personal observations have been consistent with your in the interior of the United States, the Judeo-Christians have become meaner and more bigoted and more racist. They are aggressive with an in-your-face attitude. They hate, and they hate Catholics, Muslims, and especially Iranians.

A wealthy preacher was recently asked why always flew in a private jet. He answered that he saw so much hatred on the face of fellow passengers that he could no longer endure it. Others laughed at him, but I believed him.

The late Carl Gustav Jung once observed that he knew World War II was coming because he could see Wotan in every German.

As I wrote to Mr. Kooshy, America could have been the Love of all nations of the world, their second home. But the leaders of Judeo-Christian, such as the late John Hay or the late Theodore Roosvelt, went after Imperial America chimera and their folksy plebs after Second Coming and Palestine. This project of 150 years has now failed.

Posted by: Fyi | Mar 20 2021 3:03 utc | 91

Mr. xototox

I think that the presidency of Mr. Trump revealed the ugly side of the United States; suddenly the gilded papier marche of America, carefully created by the best propaganda techniques over 70 years, was shredded and USA was revealed to be a country just like so many others.

It is up to American people, Judeo-Christians as well as others, to address the deep deep social problems of the United States.

Posted by: Fyi | Mar 20 2021 3:13 utc | 92

Mr. Debsisdead

Are you including in the category of "Thugs who control America" the Judeo-Christians who have been voting, since 1948, to wage war to control Palestine?

Posted by: Fyi | Mar 20 2021 3:16 utc | 93

Mr. Kooshy

Indeed America's misery is Iran's joy and vice versa.

Posted by: Fyi | Mar 20 2021 3:18 utc | 94

Copeland @ 13

Most probably a few stranded populations Homo sapiens sapient var. "Bottleneck" ...

Posted by: polecat | Mar 20 2021 3:30 utc | 95

re Fyi | Mar 20 2021 3:16 utc | 91

Of course although I see it as more an economic attack coated with a veneer of superstition to brainwash the ignorant. amerika wants to steal Iran's resources, the 'protect israel' tosh is a handy excuse, but it is really all about corporate greed.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Mar 20 2021 3:49 utc | 96

Rape camps in Yugo, rape camps in Libya, rape camps in Xinjiang.....
Somebody sure have certain fetishism for sex and violence.

One from the archive,
That 'humanitarian intervention in Sudan'

Indeed, the Darfur crisis is following a pattern which is so well-worn now that it has almost become routine. Saturation reporting from a crisis region; emergency calls for help broadcast on the electronic media (such as the one recently on the BBC Radio 4 flagship ‘Today’ programme); televised pictures of refugees; lurid stories of “mass rapes”, which are surely designed to titillate as much to provoke outrage; reproachful evocations of the Rwandan genocide; demands that something must be done (”How can we stand idly by?”, etc.); editorials in the Daily Telegraph calling for a return to the days of Rudyard Kipling's benevolent imperialism[6]; and, finally, the announcement that plans are indeed being drawn up for an intervention.

.................

Intervention will allow Western forces to control an oil rich region, and perhaps to expel the present holders of concessions. The fact that the biggest of these is China, and that America's other foreign adventures also seem to have as their goal the control of energy supplies to that strategic rival, only adds further piquancy to what is, otherwise, an all too banal case of modern imperialistic meddling.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27e/764.html

Posted by: denk | Mar 20 2021 5:13 utc | 97

Many great observations tonight, but all, beg the question; How do we change a nation state that has so thoroughly morphed into an advertising and marketing phony, aided and abetted by so many deluded morons?

Posted by: vetinLA | Mar 20 2021 5:24 utc | 98

Misquoting of leaders of countries that the west doesn't like is a pastime. President Ahmadinejad is often misquoted by the western MSM. What are the chances of Iran's next president being Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? That would be another plate for Blinkin to spin. Oh yea, have they found that Russian sub in the eastern Mediterranean yet? Day six I think. It's holding up a NATO exercise I believe. This is causing snickering in the Kremlin that can be heard all the way to the Sofiyskaya Embankmant and great embarrassment in Norfolk West Virginia.

"Quoting the late Imam Khomeini, President Ahmadinejad said that, like the Soviet Union and the apartheid regime of South Africa, “the Quds occupying regime will also disappear from the page of time.” Western propaganda machines have misquoted this endlessly and, together with allegations that Iran is making nuclear weapons (a charge equally vigorously denied), the lie has been endlessly repeated."

Posted by: Tom | Mar 20 2021 6:00 utc | 99

https://www.rt.com/usa/518649-joe-biden-tripping-air-force-one/

All that Tough guy talk yet Biden can't even maintain his image and posture, this guy really symbolizes America.

Posted by: Smith | Mar 20 2021 7:02 utc | 100

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