Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 27, 2021
Covid-19 – Surfing The Third Wave

The second wave of the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic has receded and the people have had enough of restrictions. There is immense pressure to end the lockdowns and many politicians will do as their voters wish. But there will be a third wave and it is likely to become larger than the second one. Below I try to explain why that is the case and what it means for our societies. My conclusions may sound alarmist, and I may be all wrong, but the scenario is neither impossible nor am I the only one who thinks it is likely.

The Spanish Flu came in three waves spread over 18 month. By summer 1919 most populations had gained some immunity against it. During the winter flu season of 1919 the new disease was no longer a public danger.

Deaths per thousand people during the Spanish Flu

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Here is the similar curve for the United States during the Covid-19 pandemic.

The U.S. just finished what – in comparison to 1918/19 – is the second wave of the pandemic.


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The situation is similar in large parts of the world. The Covid-19 pandemic has just finished its second wave.


Number of new cases per day

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One or two weeks ago Europe and the U.S. reached the floor of the valley. From hereon it is another uphill climb. Despite continuing lockdown measures the rate of change of the number of new cases has already turned positive again. The number of new infections is growing again. The third wave has started.

Weekly rate of change of the number of new cases since Jan 1 2021

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What factors are at play now and how may they effect the shape of a third wave?

New variants of the virus, pharmaceutical and non-pharmaceutical measures will each have certain effects. But the people's behavior will be the most important factor.

New variants:

In Europe as in the Americas the British B.1.1.7 variant of the virus is now becoming dominant. The strain is 50% more infectious and more deadly than the virus variants that have been circling so far. (There are additional variants of concern (VoC) which will become relevant in later phases, especially those which can infect people who are immune against the original virus.)

The numbers from Britain and Denmark show that it only takes a few weeks for a better adapted strain like B.1.1.7 to gain the upper hand.


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Pharmaceutical interventions:

We do not have proven medications which could help to suppress or heal Covid-19 infections. (Some candidates are still in development. Others, like Ivermectin, are still in trials.)

Luckily, and unlike in 1918/1919, we now have vaccines that work well at preventing serious illness and death. Studies from Israel (1, 2) and Scotland (1) show high vaccine effectiveness in the population. This stuff works.

But population wide vaccinations take time. At the current rate it is unlikely that vaccinations will be sufficient to suppress a third wave. They may dampen it a bit but that is all we can hope for.

The currently ongoing vaccination of priority groups, the people most endangered, will help to keep death within those groups down.

Non-pharmaceutical interventions:

Non-pharmaceutical measures like lockdowns and mask mandates have helped during the first and second wave to push the replication rate R below 1. But the next wave will come with a 50% more infectious variant of the virus. To keep the replication rate under 1 in the third wave would thus require stronger non-pharmaceutical measures to keep the virus under control.

The rate of increase of new cases in Denmark from week to week is now at 33%! This despite ongoing lockdown measures.

Weekly rate of change in the number of new cases since Jan 1 2021

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Behavior:

There is a growing share of the population that ignores lockdown and mask mandates. These are not all Covidiots. The people have just had enough of it.

Arash @thekarami – 15:26 UTC · Feb 27, 2021
Replying to @thekarami

These lockdowns are beginning to resemble the forever wars in that any time someone speaks against them you get a whole bunch of people screaming that we must continue until we reach an arbitrary and ever moving goal.

And for those of you who are new, I’m not a covid denier, I’m not anti-mask, my brother is a doctor at a hospital and impacted directly, I took this seriously for the first three months, six months, nine months but it’s been 12 months and they’re talking about 2022? 2022!? No.

Conclusion:

The third wave will come with a stronger virus gaining dominance. In some countries (esp. eastern Europe) most people already ignore the lockdown measures. It is unlikely that the authorities will be able to press for even stronger ones. We will have to surf this wave without the effects of most of them.

At the end of the Spanish Flu pandemic the population had reached some kind of herd immunity. Enough people were immune against the virus to prevent further large outbreaks. A large part of that herd immunity was achieved during the second wave of that pandemic when many, many people got infected. The third wave was therefore smaller than the second one.

In Europe and the U.S. we are, even after the second wave, far away from herd immunity. Less than 10%-15% of the populations has had the disease and achieved immunity. Immunity can be reached through infection or through vaccination. Over the next weeks we will only have enough vaccination capacity to immunize the most endanger 10 or 20% of the population. The other 70 to 80% are still not immune and still endangered.

All this makes it likely that the third wave of this pandemic, with a stronger virus, less effective interventions, little herd immunity, will become much bigger than the second wave. Instead of 250,000 new cases per day in the U.S. during the top of the second wave we may see 2.5 million new cases per day during the third wave.

There is one factor that may prevent that. It will get warmer and seasonality does play a role in respiratory infections. But mid June to August 2020 saw a strong increase of cases in the U.S. and South America and South Africa were hit strongly even during their summer time. I am therefore skeptical that seasonality will be of much help.

One may think that larger numbers of infections will not matter much as the most vulnerable people will have been vaccinated and are protected, that the hospitals will not become overwhelmed and that the number of deaths will not increase that much.

But that would be wrong.

About a quarter to a third of the U.S. population has a condition (overweight, diabetes) that makes it vulnerable to Covid-19. Not as much as very old people but still to a significant degree. At ten times the infection numbers of the second wave we will certainly see many more people in need of professional medical help than we did see before.

But the old people will have been vaccinated. The ICUs will not be filled with them like they were during the first and second wave. Younger folks, getting infected at a rate ten times higher than through the second wave, will fill the ICUs.

There will no longer be grandpas or grandmas of age dying from Covid-19 but mothers or fathers in the best years of their lives. The sum of years of life lost (YLL) during the third wave will therefore likely exceed the sum of the second wave.

It is difficult to say how long it will take for the third wave to reach its peak. As soon as lockdown measures end or fail we will again see strong exponential growth that may well exceed the growth we saw during previous waves. My hunch for the U.S. is that by the end of March to mid April it will be see the strongest growth so far of new cases.

Then again – that's just a hunch and I may be all wrong. In fact I hope that I am all wrong.

Comments

If the human body didn’t produce RNA, perhaps the RT PCR test could easier the presence of viral RNA. However, the human body produces much, much more RNA, from transfer RNA, ribosomal RNA and messenger RNA. That being said, what is the defining difference between DNA and RNA?
The substitution of Uracil for Thyamine in RNA is the most significant!
Which is all the RT PCR test is elucidating – the test finds the presence of Uracil, nothing more, nothing less.
And countries are willing to self-destruct over the presence or absence of Uracil!

Posted by: Bike-Anarkist | Mar 1 2021 19:13 utc | 101

Jackrabbit | Mar 1 2021 18:47 utc | 100
You speak in generalities, just like the NZ news story. Here are some facts.
I’m hoping you trust the Financial Times as a source. They have an interactive website that puts up comparison graphs for covid deaths.
Since I don’t want to make people push a lot of buttons in order to generate the output (select “countries”, type UK and Sweden into the search box and remove other countries, select start date, show as linear), I’m going to post a snapshot that someone made from that website.
If you find the snapshot’s provenance (global research) to be objectionable, feel free to go directly to the FT website and push the buttons yourself. You will get the same output that’s in the snapshot.
Unless I can’t read a graph, the UK had a November, 2020 upswing twice as large (in deaths/100k) as Sweden’s about one week earlier. You can also see that Sweden’s spring 2020 “bend over” happened only a little after the UK’s and its November upswing also happened a couple of week’s later.
Those are hard numbers from FT. They just don’t correspond to what you are saying.
BTW, the deaths/day at the end of November, 2020 (date of NZ news story) for Sweden are listed as 0.4/100k. Sweden’s population is 10 million, or 100 x 100k. So, 0.4/100k corresponds to a absolute death rate of 40/day.
Yearly average mortality under normal circumstances is a little under 1%. For Sweden, that would be a little less than 100,000 people per year, or 274 people per day. That is, covid deaths account for about 15% of normal deaths, same ballpark as pneumonia or hospital-acquired sepsis.
These panics about upswings are classic half-truths. Its true the numbers are up, but its also true that they are in the noise.
—-
As for your comment

Are you willing to entertain the hypothesis that the curve “bent” because flu season ended …

No, what you propose is essential that Covid-19 is essentially a hoax that is virtually no different than the flue.

That is not what I said. You are again putting words in my mouth. What I propose is that covid behaves like every other flu and corona virus, it is most prevalent in winter. Otherwise, covid is the most unique coronavirus in history, breaking all the rules of its type. And, indeed, by the graphs I just showed, covid has a seasonal behavior. It is your argument that violates Occam’s Razor, not mine.

There’s a reason why some at moa have labeled the current Cold War conflict a ‘Civilization War’. As they see it, the uncivilized West is trying to subdue the civilized East.

I see it as a war on the Western middle class by the Western elites. They have decided they will loot what is left of middle class asseets, and reduce them to serfdom. Covid was instantly used to hand $5 T to Wall St, while not giving money to renter’s to pay the rent. Sounds like class warfare to me. As for subduing the East, the East is doing just fine thank you. Business as usual in China and Russia.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 1 2021 21:22 utc | 102

When someone as intelligent as B still believes in our Hearsay Pandemic then it confirms that Covid is indeed a religion. Death totals for 2020 right on average. Influenza deaths this winter right on average. Creative counting turn natural deaths into victims of that mass murdering god of pestilence Covid. Nice to know Arthur Anderson found new work after the Enron thing.
Comparing it to 1918 is ridiculous. What’s the average age of those dying back then, 35? What’s the average age today of people dying naturally from influenza, but renamed covid, 85? I’m sure in 1918, during a pandemic which actually had excess deaths, many people knew victims. How many people today know of Covid victims? Even those that do would have a hard time describing the deaths as anything more than from influenza or pneumonia. This is why I call it the Hearsay Pandemic. We would never know there was one happening if we were not continually hearing about it from the fearmongers. Even people who apparently get covid need a test to find out they’re sick!
The whole thing has been a scam from the beginning. I’m amazed our host can’t admit he’s been played for a fool – like most people have.
Don’t get me wrong, this has turned into a terrible tragedy. Civil society has been damaged, perhaps beyond repair. Medical authorities have disgraced themselves. Is everyone at the top of this profession owned by Big Pharma now? I shudder to think what damage is being done to children. When I was a child my parents told me there was no invisible Boogieman. Today every kid is taught to believe in and fear the Covid Boogieman. A generation of germophobes who will wear face diapers for their entire lives. Then there’s the average westerner, confirming, once and for all, that we are all moral cowards with no self respect.
It’s been a total disaster and the economic collapse hasn’t even hit home yet. Plus we’ve got a Frankenstein vaccine to make sure Covid-21 is alive and thriving. I give up. Just let me know when we get to wave #43.

Posted by: EoinW | Mar 2 2021 1:30 utc | 103

john brewster Mar1 21:22 #102
Your focus on death rates is obscuring what really happened. Cases are also important.
Covid cases shot up starting in mid-Oct and soon overtook UK rate of infection. A rise of death rates followed later (and also grew to be greater rate than UK).ja
<> <> <> <> <>
Class warfare fails to adequately explain the new Cold War that is driven by Thucydides Trap and a butt-hurt Deep State that thought they were on the brink of global domination (recall the “end of history” gloating).
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 2 2021 4:55 utc | 104

Viral pneumonia is a natural cause of death, and life expectancy in the U.S. in 2020 was higher than at any time prior to 2007 (and seven years higher than when I was born in 1962) despite excess deaths from CoViD19. Everyone dies. If you want to obsess over a novel but nonetheless natural cause of death that’s very unlikely to kill you, go ahead. I spent the best years of my life skydiving, so the additional risk this year seems trivial to me, and for my mother with late-stage Alzheimer’s (totally bedridden, can hardly move or communicate), a nudge over the finish line would be a blessing. A paralyzing fear of death is no way to go through life, and we already spend too much on artificial life extension IMO.

Posted by: Martin Brock | Mar 2 2021 16:40 utc | 105

@ EoinW | Mar 2 2021 1:30 utc | 103… thanks.. i liked this line in particular – “Nice to know Arthur Anderson found new work after the Enron thing.” very good!

Posted by: james | Mar 2 2021 17:09 utc | 106

Martin Brock @Mar2 16:40 #105
Shorter version: cull the herd? hell yeah! fuck science and morality, let’s get on with it…. uh, because nature or something.
<> <> <> <> <>
To further highlight the immoral naval-gazing dumbfuckery of Martin’s comment, here’s an imaginary exchange with someone that hold similar views:
Younger people die too? So what?
Debilitating illness? Who cares?
Long-term effects? Say what?
Threat of virus mutating into deadlier form? Ah ain’t no worry wort.
Concerns about government ineptness, profiteering, geo-political maneuvering? Huh?
Trump lied about the virus? Them’s fightin’ words. It’s his God-given right to lie!
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 2 2021 17:32 utc | 107

Jackrabbit @ Mar 2 2021 4:55 utc #104

death rate…grew to be greater rate than UK.

Are we looking at the same graph? The death rate in Sweden peaked in early January, 2021 at about 1.2/100k. The death rate in UK peaked in late January, 2021 at about 1.8/100k.
Only at one point, about the middle of December, 2020, was the Swedish rate higher than the UK rate. And that was only for a week. Except for that one week, UK was always higher than Sweden ([post-Nov.,2020). At peak (Jan, 2021), UK was 150% of Sweden.
So, where do you get the facts to support your statement?
—-
I’m really having trouble with your logic. First you say that death rates obscure “the truth”:

Your focus on death rates is obscuring what really happened. Cases are also important.

Then you quote a rise in death rates as proof that cases are important:

Covid cases shot up starting in mid-Oct and soon overtook UK rate of infection. A rise of death rates followed later

So you are saying that test rates are the real data, and deaths only confirm the cases? Truly, backwards.
It was at this point, back in April, 2020 that I walked away from this site, because for me, death is the bottom line, not some highly contested PCR tests or incommensurable statistics from opaque websites.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 2 2021 19:17 utc | 108

john brewster @Mar2 19:17 #108
Your apparent confusion makes no sense to me. You are clearly smart enough to understand how this works. This brings to mind Upton Sinclair’s: It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.
=
Only at one point … was the Swedish rate higher than the UK rate. And that was only for a week …
Case rates ballooned in Sweden and become higher than UK for several weeks. Higher death rates in Sweden (compared to UK) followed (as one might expect).
Sweden has a great heathcare system, so I’m not surprised if death rates were higher than UK for only one week.
=
First you say that death rates obscure “the truth”…
No, I didn’t say that that. I said that “Cases are important too.” You miss valuable information when you exclude cases rates.
=
Then you quote a rise in death rates as proof that cases are important … test rates are the real data, and deaths only confirm the cases?
No. I didn’t do that. You are playing games.
1) ‘Cases’ are not ‘test rates’. 2) Higher death rates generally follow higher case rates, as one would expect (it’s just common sense).
<> <> <> <> <>
In any case, let’s not lose sight of why we began this. The Swedish experience is not something that proves that anti-pandemic measures are unnecessary and/or don’t work.
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 2 2021 19:55 utc | 109

@ Posted by: james | Mar 1 2021 16:18 utc | 91
Thank you, james. I was able to find the article from your link. I had thought up a nightmare scenario based on memory of that report and wanted to check to see if I was over doing it. I think I was. My faulty thinking went, “What if this pandemic is step one in a multi-step attempt to reduce global population?” Those who get the vaccines will be immune to subsequent more lethal releases. Belongs in sci if not in the news. But why are these things being biosynthesized and who is taking responsibility? Here’s from the report by Webb with the FOIA release link.

Corona-thrax
The recently obtained documents reveal that the BSL-3 lab that is part of UPMC’s Center for Vaccine Research is conducting eyebrow-raising research involving combining SARS-CoV-2 with Bacillus anthracis, the causative agent of anthrax infection. Per the documents, anthrax is being genetically engineered by a researcher, whose name was redacted in the release, so that it will express the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, which is the part of the coronavirus that allows it to gain access into human cells.

https://unlimitedhangout.com/2020/09/investigative-series/engineering-contagion-upmc-corona-thrax-and-the-darkest-winter/
I think the link is short enough to post full information.
Meanwhile, it is a beautiful sunny warm day here, birds calling, geese honking, bulbs emerging, softness in the air. May all beings find peace and happiness.

Posted by: suzan | Mar 2 2021 21:41 utc | 110

@ Posted by: james | Mar 1 2021 16:18 utc | 91
Thank you, james. I was able to find the article from your link. I had thought up a nightmare scenario based on memory of that report and wanted to check to see if I was over doing it. I think I was. My faulty thinking went, “What if this pandemic is step one in a multi-step attempt to reduce global population?” Those who get the vaccines will be immune to subsequent more lethal releases. Belongs in sci if not in the news. But why are these things being biosynthesized and who is taking responsibility? Here’s from the report by Webb with the FOIA release link.

Corona-thrax
The recently obtained documents reveal that the BSL-3 lab that is part of UPMC’s Center for Vaccine Research is conducting eyebrow-raising research involving combining SARS-CoV-2 with Bacillus anthracis, the causative agent of anthrax infection. Per the documents, anthrax is being genetically engineered by a researcher, whose name was redacted in the release, so that it will express the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, which is the part of the coronavirus that allows it to gain access into human cells.

https://unlimitedhangout.com/2020/09/investigative-series/engineering-contagion-upmc-corona-thrax-and-the-darkest-winter/
I think the link is short enough to post full information.
Meanwhile, it is a beautiful sunny warm day here, birds calling, geese honking, bulbs emerging, softness in the air. May all beings find peace and happiness.

Posted by: suzan | Mar 2 2021 21:41 utc | 111

LOL. I’ve been mask free, drinking in bars, eating in restaurants, and social closening since late spring. This is a joke. What day did they change the PCR test guidelines on? 13th of January right? Oh No!!! The dreaded variants.

Posted by: goldhoarder | Mar 2 2021 21:53 utc | 112

@ 11 suzan… thanks… that is a pretty discouraging and depressing article.. whitney webb is very thorough in her research… i imagine she gets stonewalled most of the time…. it is always shocking reading about ceo’s of “charitable nonprofit corporations ” making close to 9 million a year… gives new meaning to legalized corruption..
enjoy the sunny warm weather!

Posted by: james | Mar 2 2021 23:09 utc | 113

@Jackrabbit If you want to reply to my comment, it’s still up there.

Posted by: Martin Brock | Mar 3 2021 0:35 utc | 114

Jackrabbit @ Mar 2 2021 19:55 utc #109

You are clearly smart enough to understand how this works. This brings to mind Upton Sinclair’s

Why are you allowed to not understand something I said (“makes no sense to me”), while when I say I don’t understand you, all of the sudden I am one of Upton Sinclair’s evildoers? I will not use the obvious rejoinder of “projection” because I am trying not to be insulting. I ask the same courtesy of you.
Can we keep this on an equal footingl? Can you accept that I find your logic unconvincing?
Part of it clearly comes from your insistence that “cases” are meaningful data. I only trust death rates; and even those are polluted by rules like “anyone who died who had a “positive test” – is that a case to you? – in the last X days died of covid. Motorcycle accidents, hospice patients, etc.
I have not bothered to look up case rates, because they are such an incommensurable pile of data. What CT was used? Was the same CT used for all tests? At what point in time after purported exposure was the test taken? Was the test only administered to people showing symptoms or more randomly?
But the miscommunication is even worse:

1) ‘Cases’ are not ‘test rates’

Please, what is a test rate? I used it as a synonym for a case, because the number of cases per x people is what I call the positive rest rate. If there is a distinction, please spell it out for me.

First you say that death rates obscure “the truth”…

No, I didn’t say that that. I said that “Cases are important too.”

The complete quote is:

Your focus on death rates is obscuring what really happened. Cases are also important.

In my world, “what really happened” and “the truth” are, again, synonyms. Your “I didn’t say that” tried to give the impression that you only said “Cases are…”, but the entire quote includes the part that I quoted, with what I thought was an obvious synonym.
If you want to pick nits, I can pick with the best of them. So, can we please stop this quibbling?

The Swedish experience is not something that proves that anti-pandemic measures are unnecessary and/or don’t work.

Well, now we are back to square one. The only reason I joined a covid thread was because I thought that by limiting the argument to hard data about Sweden I could have a fact based discussion about the statistically demonstrated ineffectiveness of hard lockdowns.
But, after all we have said, you are back to asserting that the Swedish data is not definitive. I guess that is some small progress in that you do not say the Swedish data proves that lockdowns are necessary. You just leave it as “not something that proves”. To me that is a synonym for inconclusive.
—-
Could we just agree to disagree? I know that is rare these days, but I just returned here after a ten month absence. I don’t want to make enemies on the first day. If I determine that your position is the sense of the board, I will just avoid covid threads. Or, if it gets worse, just leave again. I’m not going to fight city hall.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 3 2021 2:00 utc | 115

@ john brewster | Mar 3 2021 2:00 utc | 114 with the barfly friction syndrome re Jackrabbit
I just want to share that I have had to learn at MoA to carefully try to add value to threads and then walk away from the contributions where the noise level is high like with Covid. I encourage you to pick your battles and continue to try and contribute.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 3 2021 2:27 utc | 116

@114 john brewster – “If I determine that your position is the sense of the board”
I don’t think you have to worry much about determining that, on most any topic on this board.
~~
What you do have to worry about is getting caught in discussions that run back and forth and go nowhere.
There are commenters here who perhaps believe in win-win in theory, but who fail to realize that arguing with someone in a determination to be correct is actually a zero-sum behavior.
I second the advice given by psychohistorian, and recommend you think of your role as offering what you know and what you think, and taking away what you find useful from the contributions of others, and calling that a good day. You already seem to be setting that position for yourself, and I wanted to applaud it and say thank you.
~~
Personally, I find it helps to think that maybe people who never write anything here are actually reading the thread and deciding for themselves what makes aggregate sense to them. If they’re like me, when a zero-sum, “you’re wrong and I’m right” discussion breaks out, it scans like noise, and one skims over it. So it’s all actually wasted.
The great lesson of thread discourse is that zero-sum behavior is wasted on all levels. It fails to achieve victory, and it alienates all sympathy – it holds at bay any potential win-win collaboration.
So, please, anyone, don’t get caught in it. Some commenters, I suspect, may be too far gone to pull out of this trap. But some, I think, can learn this most valuable lesson that psychohistorian points out.

Posted by: Grieved | Mar 3 2021 3:10 utc | 117

Posted by: Grieved | Mar 3 2021 3:10 utc | 116
Yes, the great gift of the Internet is anonymous discourse with people you don’t know from Adam and who don’t know you from Adam either. In real life you never hear what people really think. On the internet you can. In real life you have to worry about what other people think, but on the internet you don’t, so you can say what you think too. (A few things must be avoided, and always be polite.) But you have to have an open mind and little concern for narrative control. The internet is not a good place for narrative control. That way lies madness. When you work without a net you have to be self-contained and meticulous. (Don Juan liked that word: “meticulous”, I do to.)
All very unrealistic of course, and naturally, not everyone is ready for this, but if you have the mental cojones it is a unique situation, not to be missed. Not passive like TV.
I suppose we need a safe internet for those who don’t want to be triggered and a free internet for those who feel able to curate their own experience. I certainly do spend a lot of time on the internets avoiding marketing crap.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 3 2021 4:39 utc | 118

john brewster | Mar 3 2021 2:00 utc | 114
Hard data! There’s where you went wrong. Covid has nothing to do with data. Those who believe in it do so with religious fanaticism. We aren’t going to change their minds in a million years. They fully trust the governments, media and medical tyrants. We can’t even make the excuse that they are going along with it as a temporary emergency. It’s now a never ending emergency, which they seem perfectly comfortable with.
There are only two questions that matter: 1) What actual percentage of the population make up this Covid Cult? Large minority? Small majority? 2) Does this controlled anarchy we’re currently living in become an uncontrolled anarchy? People with such blind faith in Big Brother could be in for a nasty surprise when their false god shows his natural incompetence.

Posted by: EoinW | Mar 3 2021 4:41 utc | 119

i would like to say ”’ditto”’ to the last 4 comments on this thread! thanks folks!

Posted by: james | Mar 3 2021 4:41 utc | 120

welp – last 4 prior to my post being a second later then eoinw’s!!!

Posted by: james | Mar 3 2021 4:42 utc | 121

psychohistorian @ Mar 3 2021 2:27 utc #115
Thank you for your sage advice. I will try to follow it, but sometimes my aggravation overcomes my common sense. Have to learn to count to ten before I push the “post” button.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 3 2021 5:34 utc | 122

Posted by: james | Mar 3 2021 4:42 utc | 120
Yes, James, you speak for me as well. I tend to come back to the computer about once an hour, and the last few posts all happened while I was away.
Thanks to all for the good wishes. On the positive side, I especially liked:

I find it helps to think that maybe people who never write anything here are actually reading the thread and deciding for themselves what makes aggregate sense to them.

Remembering there is an audience, largely silent, helps me stay centered. When I forget the audience, I make mistakes
On the sarcastic side, I especially liked:

Hard data! There’s where you went wrong. Covid has nothing to do with data.

It resonated with one of my favorite quotes: Badges, we don’t need no steenking badges.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 3 2021 5:42 utc | 123

@117 Bemildred – “a free internet for those who feel able to curate their own experience”
@122 john brewster – “Remembering there is an audience, largely silent, helps me stay centered. When I forget the audience, I make mistakes”
john, you should get the last word. Your observation warrants that. But as Bemildred points out, in a brilliant observation that I would like to give thanks for also, the discourse allows for expansion.
Did you ever read the story by JD Salinger, Franny and Zooey? One of the most lyric pieces of American literature ever, in the view of many people.
So, in that context, drawing from that story – one should tell one’s truth for the Fat Lady. Say it for the Fat Lady.
~~
My observation doesn’t deserve the last word. Not forgetting the audience, from john, deserves the last word. And I wish it could be thought of as the last word. But I took the liberty of reminding us of the Salinger story, because it’s one of the great last words.

Posted by: Grieved | Mar 3 2021 6:44 utc | 124

john brewster @Mar3 2:00 #114
Focus on deaths seems suspiciously like an easy way to minimize the impact of the pandemic. Covid-19 can be debilitating to those that survive.
I sense that you agree with the anti-lockdown/anti-mask libertarians that want to “open things up”. That’s what motivated my snarky quote from Upton Sinclair.
I agree that the data should be better. I distrust the unholy alliance between government and Big Pharma as much as any libertarian (US military has provided lots of money for mRNA tech). And I’d like things to be back to normal as soon as possible like everyone else. But I see SARS-COV-2 as a real disease and public health threat not some renaming-the-flu hoax to stifle people’s freedom.
Texas just eliminated all anti-pandemic measures. We will see what happens now. If b and I are right, Texas may be the one of the first that is hit by a ‘third wave’.
Welcome back.
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 3 2021 8:17 utc | 125

john brewster #114
“Or, if it gets worse, just leave again. I’m not going to fight city hall.”
You should stay. You are not fighting city hall but locked in an arm wrestle debate with one of the barflies.
I am pleased to read your content and share many of your views. There is a full drink on the bar for you when the wrestling ends.
Thank you for that excellent graph. The frantic overreach and blunder by the notoriously (control freak) UK government is no surprise. For us minions in the southern hemisphere, the next winter will be interesting.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 3 2021 9:57 utc | 126

Jackrabbit
My only lingering curiosity in your regard on the covid issue is your incessant derision of libertarians. For a political philosophy that essentially advocates for liberty and against central authority, I find your fixation particularly telling.
Anyhoo, thanks to john brewster and EoinW for your sanity. And…
Remembering there is an audience, largely silent, helps me stay centered. When I forget the audience, I make mistakes
‘If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?’
I think I know the answer, but, alas, I can’t prove it.

Posted by: john | Mar 3 2021 11:28 utc | 127

so-called UK variant was in Austria in April 2020
(could be checked here https://nextstrain.org/)
and other interesting statements by Raoult (on vap disease)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUwey6UtjQI

Posted by: Mina | Mar 3 2021 12:39 utc | 128

From 8′, on variants, including one possibly derived from the minks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sovuMhRsaZs&pbjreload=101
also from a variant detected among ppl treated with Remdesivir, known to provoke mutations

Posted by: Mina | Mar 3 2021 12:56 utc | 129

must see, Ioannidis on covid mortality, 2 weeks ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KzZXvT1g-k

Posted by: Mina | Mar 3 2021 13:10 utc | 130

Jackrabbit | Mar 3 2021 8:17 utc | 124
What does it matter what happens in Texas when half the observers(not necessarily you) have reached their conclusion before any facts are observed? We’ve already done the Florida/California comparison or Sweden/Belarus/Tanzania compared to everyone else. The people who didn’t like the facts simply ignored them. 2020 death totals were right on average. That should have ended the pandemic debate right there. It didn’t. I am quite amazed by people who seek security in conforming with the official narrative even though it means the end to their quality of life, plus any chance of their children growing up in a free society.
Deaths aside, I need to ask if you actually know people suffering long term health problems due to Covid? In Canada approximately 750 die daily, nearly all by natural causes. It really isn’t hard for the media to take 50 of those deaths and write a headline about a new virus murdering them. Take 50 more the next day and the day after that and you easily create a panic. That doesn’t mean there’s a pandemic. My point being: all these Covid horror stories we hear come from the same sources that insist there’s a pandemic, even though there are no excess deaths. These people have no credibility. Unless you personally know of people with long term Covid issues you need to take these rumours for what they likely are: more fearmongering to manipulate people with.
Even if there was a pandemic and thousands were dying, while many have their health ruined, there is no evidence that lockdowns or masks protect people. We should not be doing these unnatural things under any circumstances. If people are tripping over dead bodies when they walk down the street then they’ll likely choose to stay home on their own. It’s funny that the fearmongering campaign has been so effective that governments really had no need to lockdown anyone. Yet they just couldn’t resist the giant power trip of so much control over others lives. It’s also ironic that the people most fearful of this health crisis believe there is salvation in untested, experimental “vaccines”. Their solution has far greater potential of creating long term health issues.
If I have a big concern going forward it is this mRNA crap. Nothing we have experienced with Covid 19 has any similarity to the Spanish Flu pandemic. That pandemic’s main victims were in the prime of life. It mostly spared the old and very young – the main target groups if it had been influenza. In all likelihood, it was man made, caused by an army vaccination program which went wrong. Which leaves me wondering how horrible Covid 21 is going to be as governments go crazy vaccinating a willing public.
I apologize if I’m rambling on too much. I am quite astounded by how many people are unable to think critically. They just blindly accept what they are told. It’s harsh, however I can’t help but think they’ve turned themselves into mindless zombies. When I see a school group pass by my home, with each little kid wearing their face diaper to protect them from the fresh air, I get an idea of how the Khmer Rouge indoctrinated Cambodia’s young.
The insanity isn’t restricted for the young. Like people coming towards me on my morning walk who veer off the sidewalk, even to walk in the snow, just to get away from my awful germs. Or a co-worker who can’t wait to get the vaccine because her daughter won’t allow her to see her grandkids until she’s been vaccinated. It isn’t just an anti-social revolution, it’s anti-family. Yet large numbers of people support it!
I’ll stop as we all have countless examples of our society gone mad. Critical thinkers see what’s going on and feel like they’re the only sane person in a lunatic asylum. Meanwhile others think it’s perfectly reasonable behavior. Mind blowing stuff. Unfortunately the one thing certain to blow up is our civil society. Like the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany, the Age of Diseased Individuals is upon us. In an ultra conformist society, it is the free thinkers who will be considered the most diseased.

Posted by: EoinW | Mar 3 2021 15:24 utc | 131

@123 me
My comment was a little obscure. All it means is that we are encouraged simply to bear faithful witness to what we know. To what we experience as true.
As if we are responsible for what we know. As if we are encouraged to tell the truth. As if we are a tree falling in the forest, and with no regard for if anyone hears it or not. It’s the making of the sound that we are encouraged to do.

Posted by: Grieved | Mar 3 2021 15:26 utc | 132

I have to say that I am “surprised and delighted” (as the horrible cliche goes) to be noticed and encouraged as a human being at any website. So many places lately have become “pick a side” and fight brawls.
uncle tungsten | Mar 3 2021 9:57 | 125

Thank you for that excellent graph.
You should stay. You are not fighting city hall but locked in an arm wrestle debate with one of the barflies.
I am pleased to read your content and share many of your views. There is a full drink on the bar for you when the wrestling ends.

I appreciate the metaphor, very congenial for one of Irish extraction. Drinking together after fighting is a time-honored trope about the Irish.
—-
Grieved | Mar 3 2021 6:44 | 123
Did you ever read the story by JD Salinger, Franny and Zooey?
Sorry, I’m unfamiliar with it. I’m a techie, and other than taking a Shakespeare class and (a most boring) Tolstoy class in college, literature has always taken a back seat to science.
—-
Jackrabbit | Mar 3 2021 8:17 utc | 124

Welcome back.
!!

Thank you. I hope we can continue to debate politiely, and perhaps come to a better understand of each other. One of the big problems of internet discussion boards is that so little of a person’s true self comes through the unbelievably cramped medium of typing text at each other.
Oh. I accidentally clicked on something that sent me to your website. I will take a look when I have time. My hat is off to anyone who maintains a website. I tried it once, and got buried in spam and ads from Eastern Europe. Spent more time defending against hacks than doing anything useful. But that was a while back, probably easier to get good security these days.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 3 2021 15:40 utc | 133

john @Mar3 11:28 #126
I agree with a lot of libertarian thought (especially anti-war) but it appears to me that Libertarian thinking has been weaponized to protect Trump and commercial interests. MOA (and other sites on the internet) experienced a deluge of disingenuous comments urging an end to anti-pandemic measures starting late spring 2020. I have refered to this as the “astro-turfed libertarian mob”.
After hundreds of comments and dozens of discussions, it became clear that this ‘mob’ doesn’t care about how the pandemic has been used by the establishment to further their military and geopolitical goals (military-funded experimental vaccines; anti-China). They only care about ending the restrictions that create an economic drag. As such their arguments generally repeat the same tired themes that have been debunked many times:

  • Masks don’t work;
  • “Lock-downs” [a misnomer] don’t work (Sweden!);
  • Only the old die;
  • Pandemic virus is just the flu or no worse than the flu (“no flu this year”).

In the process, they studiously avoid things like: Trump’s inaction and lies about the virus from Jan-Mar 2020, the success of east Asian countries in fighting the pandemic (they had real quarantines and rigorous contact tracing), and the danger of mutations if.
It’s not all bad. Genuine libertarians (those who are not just reading from a script) have gotten some things right:

  • pandemic-related metrics are faulty – why can’t they get it right?;
  • pandemic-related research has been biased toward Big Pharma: inexpensive treatments, preventatives, and improved testing (China now tests for gastro-intestinal markers so as to further reduce the risk posed by asymptomatic people) get little attention;
  • Our unaccountable, permanent-emergency Government has lost even more credibility due to the botched response to the virus (they don’t seem to care; TINA!): a large minority of people (even high-risk first responders) do not want to take the mRNA vaccines.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 3 2021 15:51 utc | 134

@ john brewster | Mar 3 2021 5:42 utc | 123… thanks john!
a word of advice… conversing with jackrabbit i am reminded of the heraclitus quote on plato – conversing with plato is an endless conversation, lolol… and i like to pull his leg, lolol…

Posted by: james | Mar 3 2021 18:05 utc | 135

Jackrabbit | Mar 3 2021 15:51 utc | 134
Jackrabbit: Here is some context about my personal style and my attitude about covid. I hope it helps improve our communication.
In conversations, I often have several possible interpretations running, in my head, until some further talk eliminates them. So, I will often ask questions to proactively eliminate interpretations. People tend to find these questions either irritating or stupid. If they pick irritating, they often project their favorite irritant onto what I’m saying and label me. Its happened all my life. But after people get to know me, they understand I’m not trying to be a dick; that’s just how my brain works.

Let me be clear. I hate libertarians. They were the original cutting edge of the privatization, deregulation, austerity assault on national governments, and indirectly, on the middle class. No surprise, since they were funded by the Koch brothers. Their entire shtick (force and fraud) is a high-school debating team swindle in which they redefine those basic words to suit their purposes. My first encounters on the internet were with those ideologues. They were still actively hating on FDR in the 1980s, like he was still alive.
IMHO, their anti-war stance is a “broken clock is right twice a day” situation. Notice that they never really go to the mat for that stance, whereas they sure do for their economic stances. I will give them credit for supporting marijuana legalization. But genuine progressives (as opposed to Wall St.-MIC frontmen) have those policies without the noxious Randian posturing.
I especially despise the techno-libertarian hypocrites, who’ve made massive fortunes from products that came directly from government funded research (integrated circuits, internet, GPS, touch screens – see Mariana Mazzucoto). Peter Thiel is at the top of my shitlist.
—-
It will not surprise you, I hope, to learn that before I was “retired”, I was a scientist (specifically biophysics, working in drug discovery). I bring that worldview to my writing/commentary. I question everything.
Internet discussion boards are not good venues for debate. The focus and flow of discussions are easily disrupted by “thread-jacking”. But its more basic than that.
Political discussions are problematic to begin with because the borders of what is germane are usually poorly defined. Political positions encompass many topics, and a discussion that starts on topic A has often generated many sub-arguments and wound up on topic Z.
From my scientific POV, the whole thing is an example of the Quine-Duhem thesis Quine-Duhem thesis Here is a popularized explanation of that:

The point, first stressed by Quine (1961) is that any hypothesis confronts the world intertwined in a whole mesh of other hypotheses, laws, and statements of initial conditions. Given disconfirming evidence, consistency requires that some statement(s) of the premises be abandoned, but we are free to choose which premise we shall abandon and which we shall save…Typically, we choose to save those hypotheses that are most central to our conceptual web and give up peripheral hypotheses or claims about initial conditions. But that very choice renders those central claims very hard to refute, indeed, almost true by definition…One can consistently maintain that the world is flat despite almost enormous evidence to the contrary.
– Stuart Kauffman, The Origins of Order

Bottom line: My experience is that without cooperation from all participants, its really hard to keep an internet discussion on topic and civil. Typically it degenerates into people sniping at each other from “central claims” mental fortresses.
—-
When you put the topic of covid into that framework, you can see that it is going to be chaos squared. There is the normal Quinian position-defending. But much worse, there is massive scientific and statistical illiteracy. (Not saying that is true of this board or any of the regular posters.)
I recently took my first and last spin in the cesspool that is Off-Guardian’s discussion section. I encountered a well-established group of nutbags who claim there is no such thing as a virus. Wow! If you want to crush the anti-vaxers, just repeat what these ideologues are saying. Having said that, some of the actual articles they post have useful information.
However, even discussing the so-called “scientific data” with non-nutbags is perilous. I find it bizarre that people who have always distrusted the corporate media and all the lobbyist-funded apparatchiks burrowed into our government suddenly believe that the government really wants to help the 99% and that the corporate media are telling the whole truth. People repeat garbage statistics and amplify fear-mongering tabloid nonsense. The Gates/Fauci party line hysteria is so horrid that the no-virus nutbags get some traction with the scientifically illiterate.
The next level of the problem is that its tough to even access the raw statistics. They have been pre-cooked by laws mandating covid diagnosis, by diagnostic symptoms so vague and broad that just about anything could be labeled covid. Lately, the symptoms on vaccine harm have been similarly cooked by doctors attributing people dropping dead a few days after they received the vaccination to old age or comorbidity, when exactly the same argument against covid has been dismissed with extreme prejudice for a year.
The last hurdle is that, even if you can get raw data, you need to be statistically literate to find all the tricks.
To the statistically literate, the science side of covid fear-mongering reeks of “p-hacking” or “harking“. (Note that the widely villified – yet scientifically illustrious – Dr. John Ionnidis is a co-author on the latter paper.) p-hacking means looking for a (usually hard to find) data set with 3-sigma statistics (99.3% likely to be true) that matches your hypothesis; or sometimes, just finding a data set with significance and building your hypothesis around it. The latter case is called Harking (hypothesis after results known) – the equivalent of drawing the bullseye after the arrow has landed.
That’s my take on covid, and that’s why actual deaths with legitimate cause of death statements is the only statistic that I even come near trusting. I hope I have explained my position. You are not required to agree, and my point was not to provoke another round of argumentation. It was merely to explain where I’m coming from.
So, I’m not going to restart the argument around

the same tired themes that have been debunked many times:
• Masks don’t work;
• “Lock-downs” [a misnomer] don’t work (Sweden!);
• Only the old die;
• Pandemic virus is just the flu or no worse than the flu (“no flu this year”).

You are right back to blowing off the discussion we just had. Fine. Let’s agree to disagree. Otherwise we are just sniping at each other from our mental fortresses.
To sum up:
STATEMENT: I accept that there is some new disease variant out there called covid. But I do not believe the lockdowns and demands for mass vaccination are justified given the massive social and economic harm they have caused and continue to cause. I think the at-risk population should have been quarantined, not everyone. I think the so-called mRNA vaccines are little more than human experimentation and that the propaganda push to take them is disgraceful. If I am coerced into taking something to be allowed to move about in what will, by that fact, be a police state, I will take the J&J or AZ products – because they are genuine vaccines, not experimental human genetic engineering with completely unknown long-term side-effects. That is not an endorsement of those products, merely a statement that they are less dangerous than the other products.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 3 2021 18:15 utc | 136

john brewster @Mar3 18:15 #136
Thanks for that thoughtful comment.
How my statement would differ from yours:
I accept that there is some new disease variant out there called covid.
I accept that there is some new pandemic disease variant out there called SARS-COV-2 aka Covid-19, that can have debilitating effects and is potentially deadly.
I also accept that it is much more contagious than seasonal flu and that, while it is most dangerous to the elderly, it can also kill people that are much younger who are susceptible.
=
But I do not believe the lockdowns and demands for mass vaccination are justified given the massive social and economic harm they have caused and continue to cause.
“Lockdowns”, meaning the most restrictive measures taken to reduce the ability of a pandemic virus to spread are necessary evil that should be implemented efficiently and used only when necessary given that they entail a social and economic cost.
“Lockdown” was important in the early stages of the pandemic when little was known about the virus.
“Lockdown” should not be a crutch to make up for failure to implement less strenuous measures (like contact tracing) in a rigorous way.
=
I think the at-risk population should have been quarantined, not everyone.
“Lockdowns” are not quarantines or house arrest but they are disruptive to the social fabric and have an economic cost.
“At-risk” people include people that came into contact with a person with a verified infection. It is right to quarantine these people (as some countries have done) rather than send them home to “self-isolate”. The practice of “self-isolation” simply allows for infecting family members who then pass the infection to others while they are asymptomatic.
In the West, contact-tracing seems to be an afterthought.
=
I think the so-called mRNA vaccines are little more than human experimentation and that the propaganda push to take them is disgraceful. If I am coerced into taking something to be allowed to move about in what will, by that fact, be a police state, I will take the J&J or AZ products – because they are genuine vaccines, not experimental human genetic engineering with completely unknown long-term side-effects. That is not an endorsement of those products, merely a statement that they are less dangerous than the other products.
I agree. It’s irresponsible at best to focus anti-pandemic efforts on experimental vaccines using technology that has never undergone widespread testing. Numerous, and somewhat suspicious, failures to fight the pandemic have conspired to make these vaccines a “necessary evil”.
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 3 2021 20:43 utc | 137

Mina #130

must see, Ioannidis on covid mortality, 2 weeks ago
“>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KzZXvT1g-k

Thank you for that and other posts.
john brewster and jackrabbit you too might enjoy that 1 hour vid.
Ioannidis makes a cute masked allusion to harking.
Here is a true scientist.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 3 2021 21:57 utc | 138

Posted by: EoinW | Mar 3 2021 15:24 utc | 131

We’ve already done the Florida/California comparison or Sweden/Belarus/Tanzania compared to everyone else. The people who didn’t like the facts simply ignored them. 2020 death totals were right on average. That should have ended the pandemic debate right there. It didn’t.
Deaths aside, I need to ask if you actually know people suffering long term health problems due to Covid? In Canada approximately 750 die daily, nearly all by natural causes. It really isn’t hard for the media to take 50 of those deaths and write a headline about a new virus murdering them. Take 50 more the next day and the day after that and you easily create a panic. That doesn’t mean there’s a pandemic.

Yes. That’s my take exactly. Here are people who had covid that I either know personally or through a friend.
1. My 90 year old aunt, in a nursing home, with Alzheimer’s. Had a little cough. Recovered just fine.
2. My sister-in-law’s brother and his wife, both over 65. He symptom-less. She had a slight fever.
3. A friend’s father, 85 in hospice for Parkinson’s He was refused all help, including intravenous saline. Died alone. So sad.
4. A friend’s twin sister, 75, in nursing home. Had it. Recovered.
I know no one with “long term health problems” from covid.
That’s my and my wife’s personal toll in one entire year. Five people, all over age 65 – the supposedly at risk group – spread all over the country. One death, caused by refusal of hospice to intervene in any way. And he probably figured it was better to go that way than spend another year with terminal Parkinson’s.
—-
If this were real, the toll would be a lot higher. My wife, the medico, would have heard a lot more horror stories from her co-workers in health care. I agree with your “take 50 of those deaths” analysis. Its part of the statistical and propaganda illiteracy of the dumbed down population.
It makes me sad that I cannot reach people who discount their own (non-) experience of how not deadly this whole farce is.
I applaud your willingness to speak out and act out. I’m not that bold. Just keeping a low public profile and hoping that I don’t have to actively refuse to be “vaccinated”.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 3 2021 22:34 utc | 139

uncle tungsten | Mar 3 2021 21:57 utc | 138
I will have to look at the video. May I ask did you know about harking before I mentioned it? Did Ionnidis mention it directly, or just as an inside joke?
I love how literate (in many ways) the people on this board are.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 3 2021 22:37 utc | 140

john brewster | Mar 3 2021 22:34 utc | 139
Thanks for the kind comments. Also thanks to James for his support further up the thread.
I have a friend in southern Illinois who knows a number of people who have been in hospital due to Covid. All have recovered and none, that she has mentioned, has had further health issues.
Personally my 99 year old Aunt tested positive for Covid right after Christmas. Two weeks mostly in bed with flu like symptoms, no energy and headaches. Of course she’s 99, much time in bed and little energy is her norm. She recovered. Though her home received the Pfizer vaccine a couple of weeks ago. Naturally every resident vaccinated. My cousins celebrated the good news. Sheesh!
It’s been mentioned about quarantining the population at risk. I don’t even agree with that. Quarantines for healthy people…a new first for progressive medical science! My Aunt had to spend 4 weeks in her room. I’ve a friend whose mother was dying of cancer. Each time she went to a doctor’s appointment she had to isolate in a room(not her own) for 2 weeks, with nothing more than a bed! Dying with dignity used to be a an issue. Today the issue is seniors in homes being allowed to live with dignity. They’re treated like prisoners, who aren’t even allowed visitors!
How about a free society allowing these elderly people and their families to decide how best to cope with the situation?
If I’m getting bold – and I still feel like I’m laying low and as small a target as possible – it’s because my patience has run out and I’m very angry. Thanks for your posts! Keep fighting the good fight.

Posted by: EoinW | Mar 4 2021 0:17 utc | 141

john brewster @Mar3 22:37 #140
My daughter’s boyfriend (in his early 20’s) got it and felt the effects for months after. He’s very athletic and healthy. Not overweight. No diabetes. I think he probably got it from a coffee shop because he a coffee fanatic.
My friend got it when her boss came the office despite being sick. She was nearly admitted to the hospital after experiencing a fever >104 and trouble breathing. Six of her co-workers also got it (from the boss). PS The boss was fired about two weeks after he spread it to his staff.
I know of one person who died and one person who likely died OF Covid (not WITH).
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 4 2021 0:29 utc | 142

uncle tungsten | Mar 3 2021 21:57 utc | 138
Still watching the video. Its great. I see what you mean about harking. At about 22 minutes, he shows how two models, both from Imperial College, gave different results – one showing effect, the other showing no effect. At about 25 minutes, he shows that a different type of statistical analysis than the one that was published shows that draconian lockdown had no effect. Harking indeed.
At about 30 minutes he discusses all the “unworthy victims” who get no coverage: death from suicide, death from postponed medical treatment. We are told it is necessary to save society. To me it sounds a lot like what the cops say when they engage in a high speed chase and a gun battle in which there is massive property damage and injury or loss of life of innocent bystanders.
But, I can see why Ionnidis gets no coverage. He isn’t concise. He is too hedged. He is not good TV for the masses.
At 37 minutes he calls out group think, bandwagon effect, selective reporting, political pressure.
Well, i’m just going to post this now, rather than wait and watch for another half hour.
Thanks again.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 4 2021 0:49 utc | 143

Jackrabbit | Mar 4 2021 0:29 utc | 142
I am sorry for your daughter’s BF’s and your friend’s health problems. After all the publicity, people who go out in public while experiencing symptoms get zero sympathy from me. My position is that covid can cause serious health problems for some people, and that it is so far impossible to predict who (among those without co-morbidities) may have those problems. So I am in favor of caution in the presence of symptoms.
I give your anecdotes equal weight to mine. Both of these are true facts. But, as the saying goes “the plural of anecdotes is not data”.
Thanks for the facts.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 4 2021 1:04 utc | 144

john brewster #140

I will have to look at the video. May I ask did you know about harking before I mentioned it? Did Ionnidis mention it directly, or just as an inside joke?

Your reference led me to comprehend the concept of Harking and I had just found Mina’s post to the video.
Re your subsequent post above: yes Ioannidis is not telegenic or political in any way as he presents dialog. He is brilliant and uncensored as a result and we have benefited enormously because he is so good, so boring if you like, but so deadly precise. I have watched him on and off through the progress of this virus and its sister malady – fear and loathing and bankrupting and lunacy.
I think there must be a data set in the virus and the sister malady that, when combined and carefully decrypted, will lead us to the Tardis and once there we could venture back and forth and create worlds best mischief.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 4 2021 4:02 utc | 145

Our country (Vietnam) did benefit under a much more supportive USSR and China and the 2nd world. Materiels, training, all brotherly relationships.
Sad to say, but the iraqis, iranians, yemeni and afghanis lack this support and they have to make do with just Russia, everything else they have to pay for, and Russia and China themselves have no problems selling weapons to Saudi Arabia and Israel and Turkey, the opponent states.

Posted by: Smith | Mar 4 2021 4:03 utc | 146

Jackrabbit | Mar 4 2021 0:29 utc | 142

people who go out in public while experiencing symptoms get zero sympathy from me.

I just realized that that could be misconstrued. I meant I have no sympathy for the boss being fired for being a dangerous idiot, not no sympathy for your friend who got sick.
Sorry for any agida that I might have caused.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 4 2021 4:04 utc | 147

Ioannidis? Really?
How faulty was Ioannidis’ research?
Despite his claim of high infection rates (implying that lockdowns and other control measures were useless), 6 months after his study herd immunity was still nowhere in sight. And sero-reversion indicates that immunity doesn’t last (and that’s probably exacerbated by virus mutuations). Thus, herd immunity would not protect “at-risk” populations as critics of lockdowns/masks claim. In fact, it may be necessary to get one or two booster shots every year to remain protected against SARS-COV-2 and its variants.
Less than 10% of Americans had COVID by September, study finds

… the cross-sectional JAMA study … tested blood sera from 177,919 people …
“A robust and well-designed seroprevalence study using residual serum samples from across the US has found that herd immunity to SARS-Cov-2 is nowhere in sight …
At retesting
[60-days later] … 146 of 156 (93.6%) healthcare workers who returned for follow-up had a decline in antibody response, and 44 of 156 (28.2%) experienced seroreversion—meaning their antibody levels had declined below the threshold for positivity.

Novel coronavirus vaccine ‘may become annual shot
<> <> <> <> <>
FYI
April 15 2020: A Stanford whistleblower complaint alleges that the controversial John Ioannidis study failed to disclose important financial ties and ignored scientists’ concerns that their antibody test was inaccurate.

A highly influential coronavirus antibody study was funded in part by David Neeleman, the JetBlue Airways founder and a vocal proponent of the idea that the pandemic isn’t deadly enough to justify continued lockdowns.
That’s according to a complaint from an anonymous whistleblower, filed with Stanford University last week and obtained by BuzzFeed News, about the study conducted by the famous scientist John Ioannidis and others. The complaint cites dozens of emails, including exchanges with the airline executive while the study was being conducted.
. . .
And emails cited within the complaint also suggest that the study’s authors disregarded warnings raised by two Stanford professors who tried to verify the accuracy of the antibody test used. The pair of scientists ultimately refused to put their names on the study because, they told the lead researchers, they could not stand by the test results.

Much more in the article.
The Nation (5 days later): How Stanford Lost Its Soul

… during the current pandemic, Stanford is making a mark for something less admirable than birthing the tech revolution. Stanford has become the main academic vector for contrarian Covid-19 thinking, helping give legitimacy to arguments that the world is overreacting to the virus.
In March, Richard Epstein, a fellow at the Hoover Institution, a Stanford-affiliated think tank, published an influential article arguing that America could expect only around 500 deaths from the pandemic. He later revised that number to 5,000. Still later, he said he meant 50,000. Even that number, of course, is far short of the more than 93,000 Americans who have already died of Covid-19—a figure that itself is almost certainly an undercount.
It’s easy enough to dismiss Epstein as a buffoon. He’s a law professor, not an epidemiologist, and is known for his extremist libertarian views.
Much more serious was the April 17 study released by a team headed by Dr. John Ioannidis, a professor at the Stanford University School of Medicine. Unlike the interloper Epstein, Ioannidis is one of the world’s leading experts on epidemics. The study reported findings based on tests done in Santa Clara County showing that the virus was much more prevalent than previously suspected, which also means the overall mortality rate is much lower than commonly assumed.
The Santa Clara study, as it came to be called, was quickly picked up by the right-wing media, eager for ammunition for the argument that the lockdown had to be ended quickly.

See more at the article.
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 4 2021 4:43 utc | 148

JR, sorry to say but a coffee fanatic is not healthy. Add pollution and maybe lack of vit D without knowing it?
In rich countries, probably more than 50 percent of the dead were ppl who caught it in care homes and hospitals (what Ioannidis rightly calls “a massacre”). In crowded places like Brazil it is more complicate, and also more complicate to solve apparently? Or is it really targetting some “old genes”, as for the Amazonian Indians and the Iranian Caucasians (they took a high toll). It all get back to density and pollution… China made it right: first eradicate, then vaccinate, otherwise it would have spread again at once when the borders are open (something the EU autocrats pretend they cannot understand… which actually means that depopulation is their aim… what an easy way to create jobs and housing, isn’t it?)
They are now desperately trying to promote the vaccine in the EU by stating that it is now younger folks who go to hospitals for covid “because the vaccination is taking effect among the elderly” SIC… They know since the autumn that the new strains target younger ppl, with a higher mortality among 45-69 than later, if I read correctly some NL graph. Looks like the elderly were on “auto-sheltering” and that the virus found new targets.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 4 2021 7:48 utc | 149

Ioannidis was attacked as much as Raoult, early as you point (Spring 2020). They both make relevant points. And interestingly, they are now both pro-vaccine. Raoult says (in different interviews) that lockdown works at the beginning of an epidemy (and of course by sealing all borders, earth, land etc so that you can trace clusters strain by strain) but now it is too late.He also calls authorities not to display this morbid game of numbers that have no meaning at all and rather points to the disparity between healthcare systems, explaining that the UK, the US and France have now showed they DO NOT treat people properly, vs South Korea, Japan, Germany, Switzerland and many others where the death rate is far lighter.
Usually in France they get people in the hospital when then are 10-15 days into it, after telling them to just isolate home and take aspirin for a week.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 4 2021 7:58 utc | 150

btw, the definition of lockdown in the EU is only house arrest at the times and days decided by the states.
in Germany, it was to stay home, not meeting or receiving anyone from outside, go out for shopping or sport within a certain radius (lifted now)
in France for the last 2 months, to be under curfew after 6 PM, while before that, everything is open, transportations are packed
they are now experimenting in the “red zones” (!!) a weekend curfew from friday evening to monday morning, hoping the virus is resting during the week but active on the weekend (alcohol anyone?). They are now testing (saliva) kids in schools twice a week but….. yes, they have all the kids in the same room, spitting next to each other in a locked space.
but the EU borders, air and land, are open; less trains and planes, but still; supposedly one should be able to produce a -72 hours test, but by car you can still sneak easily if you avoid highways.
but you can call it “lockdown” if you want.
instead of that mess, a real air ban, strict quarantines, and indeed some strict lockdowns of short durations, have produced good results.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 4 2021 10:19 utc | 151

Other issues about which we hear not are the exchanges with animals and their influence on the new strains; Raoult mentions the minks issue, sayings he cannot access any official stat about the number of mink farms in France (NL and Danemark have had cases, like also the US, involving human-animal-human transmissions)
And guess what, Danemark and Austria are now in talks with Israel about the future vaccines. Probably discussing minks + mutations post vax, but we won’t get any data about that, I would bet.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/austrian-danish-leaders-to-visit-israel-for-talks-on-joint-vaccine-efforts/
https://www.today24.news/en/2021/03/paris-criticizes-proposed-alliance-between-austria-denmark-and-israel-on-vaccines.html

Posted by: Mina | Mar 4 2021 10:24 utc | 152

Just heard some local French news: more than 40 % of covid ppl in intensive care have obesity problems. Do you really need to destroy society and the economy rather than provide “at risk groups” with free vegetable soups?
This was identified long ago
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32437642/
https://www.france24.com/en/20200909-obesity-greatest-risk-factor-for-young-adults-with-covid-19
https://www.france24.com/en/video/20210113-coronavirus-pandemic-in-s-africa-link-between-covid-19-deaths-and-obesity
No wonder why UK and US score great too.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 4 2021 11:07 utc | 153

Mina | Mar 4 2021 7:48 utc | 149
Thank you, Mina, for laying out a lot of relevant info.
Jackrabbit | Mar 4 2021 4:43 utc | 148
A Microsoft News piece with the telltale “may” in the fear-mongering title, an “anonymous whistleblower” whose complaint has gone nowhere in a year as reported by Buzzfeed, a year old hit piece from The Nation — all a bunch of corporate shills. Does anyone on this board trust these corporate mouthpieces? Really.
The only one of these I would even look at is the Jama study reported by U. Minnesota from November.
Yeah, Ionnidis is so controversial that his studies are still being published by WHO.
——-
I find your go-for-the-jugular tactics disappointing and boring. I spent some effort to lay out context, and you don’t respond to the substance, but rather go after Ionnidis with year-old boilerplate propaganda from the MSM. Just sad.
I’m done trying to have a polite conversation with you on this topic. You seem to only respond when you can make an attack.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 4 2021 14:06 utc | 154

john brewster | Mar 4 2021 14:06 utc | 154
I just wanted to amplify my response.
I come to boards like MoA because they are not the corporate media. AFAIK the basic stance of this board is that the corporate media are a pack of liars with a neoliberal/neocon agenda.
Could the corporate-ness of your position be more obvious when you post a Microsoft Network story regurgitating Bill Gates’ claim that we will need vaccines forever? Do you think an editor whose paycheck comes from Bill Gates (he still owns vast amounts of the stock) is going to deviate from Gates party line? Puh-leeze.
All those links to try to discredit Ionnidis, but not one word about the serial fraud, Neil Ferguson. That man has predicted five of the last one pandemics. Remember swine flu? At the beginning of covid he predicted tens of millions of deaths. Then he got caught breaking curfew to be with his girlfriend, for which he got fired from some position or another. But he’s back, making more outsized doom pronouncements. And, of course, he is heavily funded by Bill Gates.
Buzzfeed pretends to be hip, but is corporate to the core. A few news clips:

NBCUniversal (which owns NBC News) has a $400 million investment in BuzzFeed,
BuzzFeed is acquiring Verizon Media’s HuffPo

So, to have a bunch of MSM thrown at me as “proof” makes me want to just put the poster on my do-not-read list.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 4 2021 15:48 utc | 155

mina and john brewster
I think both sides are wrong.
=> Endless lockdowns and pro-Big Pharma policies are wrong.
=> Lift all pandemic measures and let nature take its course is also wrong.
Those who take one of these sides are generally ideological and feed partisan politics.
Sadly, anyone that doesn’t pick a side is attacked by both sides.
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 4 2021 17:21 utc | 156

No end in sight:
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/israel-denmark-austria-join-forces-covid-19-76255653
(Austria says it will need 30 millions doses in the coming months/years)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56279202

Posted by: Mina | Mar 4 2021 21:27 utc | 157

Jackrabbit | Mar 4 2021 17:21 utc | 156
I don’t know what to make of your post.
We have had days of argumentation back and forth in which you took strong positions. And now you just recite a well-understood truism – that the only two media-acceptable stances are simultaneously extreme and wrong – without reference to the heated discussion that had been on going.
Is this an olive branch, or just a way to change the subject and generate agreement – without making the slightest concession that my POV has some validity? I have seen the “look, squirrel” tactic many times. So I may be overly sensitive.
I said in my “context” post that I hold multiple interpretations until the situation resolves. I just gave you two interpretations and hope you understand my thought processes and are willing to give me a resolution.
I’m not going to post any more in this thread. I would appreciate a resolution, even if you say I am being annoyingly obsessive about closure here. Otherwise, cheers.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 5 2021 16:58 utc | 158

john brewster @Mar5 16:58 #158

I would appreciate a resolution …

I wish I could give you a resolution. I can’t.
Reasonable people will differ. But everyone seems to gavitate toward the extremes these days, IMO that’s a feature (of divide and conquer) not a bug.
IMO YOU in particular lean strongly toward the libertarian view despite protesting that you’re not a libertarian. You were of the same mind 10 months ago also.
The reason you are ‘back’ (I think) is that the ineptness of the Western response makes the libertarian view more appealing. Why not open up the economy if the government is not going to effectively tackle the crisis? Lots of people are falling into that way of thinking now out of frustration. They are simply tired of living with pandemic restrictions that make life stressful and less enjoyable.
Ultimately, the only true resolution is an accountable government. Libertarians would say: get rid of government altogether! Well, smaller or more local government is generally more accountable.
Aside: Empires by nature are probably the least accountable which makes libertarian thinking as revolutionary as it is insipid (why insipid? because libertarian tribalism translates to an inability to change the powerful status quo). In USA you can’t even vote against Empire largess for Israel and MIC. Yet few notice because most have been brainwashed into believing that USA is not an Empire and/or that USA only benefits from Empire and/or USA must “defend its values” by meddling in the affairs of other countries.
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 5 2021 19:43 utc | 159

As if we are responsible for what we know. As if we are encouraged to tell the truth. As if we are a tree falling in the forest, and with no regard for if anyone hears it or not. It’s the making of the sound that we are encouraged to do.
Posted by: Grieved | Mar 3 2021 15:26 utc | 132
That was a nice compliment, thank you. And I quite agree with your sentiment, I am reminded of an old Jackson Browne song: between the time you arrive and the time you go, may be a reason you were alive, but you’ll never know. (May not be precise.) Mostly these days I try to avoid doing things I might regret.
I read all of Salinger at one time. Several of my brothers were reading him and I got the hand me downs. It was formative, but I could not tell you how exactly. Made me more comfortable with not fitting in maybe.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 5 2021 20:38 utc | 160

The death of logic in the EU (most of the governmental websites I’ve checked are not even up to date with the regulations since they are constantly changing, so the local news remain the best source:)
Belgium, from monday on, you can be a group of 10 other people “for activities in the open air such as a walk or to sit and chat on the grass at the park. Social distancing must be maintained at all times and face coverings must be worn. Currently groups of no more than 4 people are permitted to gather together outside in this way”
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2021/03/05/bubble-of-ten-for-outdoor-activities-from-monday/
Some professions are allowed back to work, hair-dressers only at customer’s homes:
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2021/03/07/which-professionals-can-get-back-to-work-on-monday/
What Belgium calls “easing the measures” is still very similar to house arrest with an hour promenade…
https://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/158408/live-belgium-consultative-committee-measures-alexander-de-croo-frank-vandenbroucke-outdoor-bubble-education-easter-travel/
They are even letting people be accustomed to the idea that curfew (10 PM) will stay even after bars reopen.
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2021/03/06/curfew-to-stay-even-when-the-bars-open/
But this saturday, France has imposed for a whole month a “weekend curfew” in the northern region, bordering Belgium, as if the virus does not spread the whole week.
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210306-france-extends-weekend-lockdown-to-pas-de-calais
People paid to promote the “vaccine passport” do not discuss the real issues.
https://www.brusselstimes.com/opinion/157297/there-is-no-fundamental-ethical-objection-to-vaccine-passports/
Why if the passport accepts any vaccine, should we wait for the EU green light to use the Chinese and Russian vaccines?
More embarrassing, only 30 % of the French medical staff has taken the vaccine, and the IC union are explaining that they see no reason to take the Astra-Zeneca when South Africa stopped it because it is ineffective (or yes, effective in 22% cases) against the so-called SA variant. They explain that the SA variant is the one prevalent in Moselle now (bordering Luxembourg… diamond business?? BS jobs in Luxembourg taken by the French??) and therefore, just as they need FFP2 masks and not just surgeon masks like the laymen who are not exposed to higher doses of the virus, they need the best vaccines. By the way, Switzerland has not allowed the astra-zeneca at all.
https://www.ft.com/content/a6a6d64c-a337-4af4-9525-d194571c7887
The actual law is that any citizen can travel within the EU, but some restrictions have been made only when travelling by plane or train (the EU covers itself by stating that these are the decisions of private companies and not infringing Schengen). In fact, no one can forbid you to travel by car, as clear here, about Luxembourg, https://covid19.public.lu/en/travellers/visiting-luxembourg.html
At the same time, Germany and Switzerland are reopening (except restaurants and cafés).
Museums are still closed in a number of countries, but open in Austria, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Estonia, Finland, Iceland, Malta, Norway, Poland, Romania, Slovenia, Spain, Switzerland.
https://www.ne-mo.org/advocacy/our-advocacy-work/museums-during-covid-19/overview-of-museum-reopenings.html

Posted by: Mina | Mar 7 2021 11:31 utc | 162