Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
January 21, 2021

The Number Of Uyghurs Has Tripled - The U.S. Calls It A Genocide - Propaganda Fails To Explain It

After being bashed with 24/7 "Trump is bad" news we are now punished with 24/7 of "Biden is great" news.

Actions which were an outrage when taken under Trump are now sold as rational endeavors when argued for by Biden acolytes.

To cover for the turnabout media are getting a bit in a twist and have to make up stupid excuses.

Consider this New York Times piece that now justifies a last minute action the former Secretary of State Mike Pompous took when he falsely declared that the Chinese development of the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region is a 'genocide'.

China’s Oppression of Muslims in Xinjiang, Explained

On the final full day of the Trump presidency, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo declared that China was carrying out a genocide against Uighurs and other Muslim peoples, the toughest condemnation yet of Beijing’s crackdown against its far western region of Xinjiang.
...
The incoming Biden administration has indicated its general agreement with the designation. A spokesman for Joseph R. Biden Jr. said during the presidential campaign last year that Beijing’s policies in the region amounted to genocide.
...
Here’s a look at the Xinjiang region, China’s crackdown there and what the genocide declaration could mean for the global response.

Uh oh - the 'good Biden' endorses something 'bad Trump' has done. Some mumble is needed to explain that!

Thus follows a number of inaccurate descriptions of the historic and current situation in Xinjiang:

Xinjiang, in the far northwestern region of China, has large numbers of Uighurs, Kazakhs and other mostly Muslim groups. It is culturally, linguistically and religiously more similar to Central Asia than the Chinese interior.
...
Uighurs have long bridled at Chinese control of the region, which has seen an influx of ethnic Chinese migrants and an increase in restrictions on local language, culture and religion. Minority groups in Xinjiang say they aren’t given jobs or contracts because of widespread racial discrimination.

The resentment has sometimes boiled over into violence, including attacks on police officers and civilians. In 2009, nearly 200 people, mostly Han Chinese, were killed in riots in Urumqi, the regional capital.

Most of Xinjiang has been under 'Chinese control' for more than 2,000 years. It has always been a mixed region with several ethnic groups including a significant Han population. It has also seen fast population growth caused by high birth rates and migration following strong economic development:

In the early 1800s the population under the Qing (Manchu) Dynasty was roughly 60% Turkic and 30% Han. In 1953, a People’s Republic of China census registered 4.87 million of which 75% were Uyghur and 6% Han. In 1964 the census documented 7.44 million of which 54% were Uyghur and 33% Han. After the beginning of the economic reforms, Xinjiang registered 13.08 million of which 46% were Uyghur and 40% Han. In terms of the 2000 census, Xinjiang’s 18.46 million people are 45.21% Uyghur and 40.57% Han. The current population situation is similar to that of the Qing when many Han lived in the area.

In 1953 there were 3.6 million Uyghur in Xinjiang. In 2,000 there were 8.4 million. Wikipedia says that in 2018 Xinjiang has a total population of 25 million of which 11.3 million are ethnic Uyghur.

It is quite weird to claim that such a consistent population growth of an ethnic group is somehow a 'genocide'.

This sentence from the above quote is especially interesting:

Minority groups in Xinjiang say they aren’t given jobs or contracts because of widespread racial discrimination.

It is followed a few graphs later by this claim:

In addition, the authorities have pushed work programs in Xinjiang, including the transfer of workers within the region and to other parts of China, that critics say most likely involve coercion and forced labor.

Which is it?

Are the Uyghur excluded from labor or are they coerced to labor?

The Times won't explain that contradiction so we will have to do that.

There has been high economic growth in Xinjiang for several decades. The state owned Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps, which was founded 64 years ago to develop the region, has seen above 10% growth rates in its industries over several decades.

Some of this growth has been in rural areas with extensive cotton farming. There are also large coal, oil and gas reserves in Xinjiang that have been developed. Another growth factor has been a rapid urbanization within the province.

Cotton farming, unless highly mechanized, requires a lot of seasonal workers to pick the cotton. These often came from Han provinces. A 2009 report in the NYT said:

The first wave of workers has arrived in the annual migration to China’s restive western region of Xinjiang this year to pick cotton, according to a report on Friday by Xinhua, the state news agency.

The workers are mostly ethnic Han and are the first large batch of migrant workers to make the journey to Xinjiang since deadly ethnic rioting broke out this summer.

A Reuters piece from 2014 tried to use the fact that Han migrants came to do such work to justify Islamist terrorism in Xinjiang:

URUMQI, China (Reuters) - Hundreds of migrant workers from distant corners of China pour daily into the Urumqi South railway station, their first waypoint on a journey carrying them to lucrative work in other parts of the far western Xinjiang region.

Like the columns of police toting rifles and metal riot spears that weave between migrants resting on their luggage, the workers are a fixture at the station, which last week was targeted by a bomb and knife attack the government has blamed on religious extremists.

“We come this far because the wages are good,” Shi Hongjiang, 26, from the southwestern metropolis of Chongqing, told Reuters outside the station. “Also, the Uighur population is small. There aren’t enough of them to do the work.”

Shi’s is a common refrain from migrant workers, whose experience finding low-skilled work is very different to that of the Muslim Uighur minority.

Employment discrimination, experts say, along with a demographic shift that many Uighurs feel is diluting their culture, is fuelling resentment that spills over into violent attacks directed at Han Chinese, China’s majority ethnic group.

It is correct that some employers preferred Han workers as they were schooled and spoke the main countrywide language. But the Chinese government had long recognized that a large part of the local rural population was still underemployed and already had taken measures to change that:

The Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region, China's prime cotton-growing area, plans to pump some 20 billion yuan ($3.2 billion) into its textile industry to create jobs and maintain social stability, local officials in its Beijing representative office said on Friday.

"The push for textile development will create more jobs in the sector," said Yan Qin, a top official of Urumqi. "It is not only a matter of economic returns and social benefits, but also a political issue."
...
Local officials said the policy focus will favor the underdeveloped southern part of the region. The southern Xinjiang city of Aksu, one of the major cultivation areas, is one area where the government aims to improve employment.

The move is part of Beijing's call to attract more labor-intensive textile manufacturers from the eastern cities to Xinjiang to open up employment opportunities for local people.

In 2016 Reuters reported on the success of Beijng's development policy:

AKSU, China (Reuters) - The Youngor cotton spinning factory is one of the biggest employers in Aksu, an agricultural town on the edge of the Taklamakan desert in China’s restive Xinjiang region.

Youngor, one of China’s largest shirt-makers, opened the plant in 2011 to be closer to the main cotton-growing region in Xinjiang. Soon it will be joined by others: Beijing wants to create 1 million textile jobs in Xinjiang by 2023.
...
Almost all of the 520 employees at the Youngor factory are Uighurs. The average factory floor salary is around 3,000 yuan ($463.18)a month, and comes with food and lodging - compared with roughly 4,000 yuan for textile workers in the southern China factory belt.

“There are still a lot of people to come out of (Xinjiang’s) countryside,” said Xu Zhiwu, general manager at Youngor’s Aksu factory, referring to government data that show 2.6 million rural residents sought work in Xinjiang’s cities in 2014.

Xinjiang Youngor Cotton Spinning Co Ltd, a unit of Youngor Group, is planning to expand its factory, built among apple orchards on Aksu’s outskirts, Xu said.

Beijing's development policies were successful. The seasonal cotton picking campaign is no longer done by Han migrant worker but by locally recruited people:

The replacement of Han labor migrants from eastern China with local ethnic minority laborers who are mobilized through labor transfer schemes is taking place in all cotton-growing regions in Xinjiang. In 2018, of 250,000 cotton pickers in Kashgar Prefecture, 210,900 were locals (via labor transfer policies), 39,100 came from other regions of Xinjiang, and only 6,219 or 2.5 percent hailed from other parts of China.
The report notes the numbers of cotton pickers from other parts of China are declining. In the same year, the number of cotton pickers in Aksu Prefecture who were organized through the labor transfer mechanism increased by 21 percent. In 2020, Aksu needed 142,700 cotton pickers; of them, 124,500 were locally organized (likewise via state-arranged labor transfers).
Karakax County in Hotan Prefecture sent out more cotton pickers mobilized through labor transfer – an increase from 40,600in 2017 to 54,000 in 2018, mobilizing 15.7 percent of its population aged 18-59 years to pick cotton in other regions. A 2020 news article from Aksu explains that counties with more cotton plantations request labor from those with fewer plantations, stating that as a result the region “no longer needs to attract cotton pickers from elsewhere.”

The 'labor transfer policies' are in fact state sponsored local recruitment campaigns for well paid seasonal work. This local recruitment is what the Times calls "coercion and forced labor".

When, years ago, Han migrant workers came to Xinjiang to pick cotton and for other work 'western' media complained and used that to justify Islamist terrorism.

After China introduced a better development policy and the companies started to recruit from the local Uyghur population for cotton picking and other textile industry work the very same 'western' media complain about "coerced labor".

Instead of explaining the successful development the New York Times is using it to argue that an ethnic group, which over the last seven decades more than tripled in size, is under threat of genocide.

There is nothing that China could do to end such silly propaganda.

Posted by b on January 21, 2021 at 19:21 UTC | Permalink

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It's been one year now since the Wuhan lockdown, and Global Times published this anniversary article. Yes, it's a bit staid and the prose is stilted somewhat, but Wuhan served as the laboratory for the rest of China such that they've a system for rapid response that remains unique. A typical excerpt:

"The decision of sealing off Wuhan confused Chen at the very beginning. But then he changed his mind after he saw how Western countries, especially European countries and the US, mishandled the pandemic, 'which made people dying every day a new normal.'

"'I know many Western countries tried to copy Wuhan's lockdown method. But did they keep their virus carriers from wandering around? Did their governments have as effective enforcement as we do?' asked Chen.

"Chen said it is the Wuhan people's strength and unity that made the city once in the 'eye of the storm' now the 'safest city on earth.' 'Those Western countries have no right to lambast Wuhan, with itself being dragged with high daily records. What are these 'human rights' they are always talking about? Keeping people alive is the most import[ant] part of human rights,' said Chen." [My Emphasis]

As suggested for months in Global Times editorials, which means China's government, until they can prove they can do better, no government has grounds for criticizing China for anything. Biden expects the death toll to top 500,000 by the end of February while stats say China has 4635 deaths. An impartial observer would likely assess the Outlaw US Empire is run by the Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight, and that its PRNews service has zero objectivity matching the government's.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 22 2021 17:41 utc | 101

@ Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Jan 22 2021 17:34 utc | 95

There was this little thing called "colonialism" in Lenin's time. Freeing itself from that was the right of self-determination of the peoples.

But, in order to liberate itself from colonialism and not fall in the trap of neocolonialism (i.e. colonialism with American characteristics; Monroe Doctrine), a people must not only be formally independent, but also enjoy de facto independence, i.e. economic independence (industrialization). That's one of the pillars of "Eastern" Marxism, that differentiates it from "Western" Marxism (which preaches going to socialism all the way, without the phase of neocolonial liberation).

Lenin didn't invent any "ethnic identity". Those peoples already were causing a lot of separatist headache to the Russian Empire by the time Lenin was born.

--//--

@ Posted by: fyi | Jan 22 2021 17:25 utc | 93

Well, you forgot to tell the Kurds in Syria that, because they occupied non-Kurd - but oil rich - Syrian cities in the northeast of the country in order to traffic it illegally to Turkey, and essentially found a banana republic with a bunch of Kurd chieftains as its oligarchy.

Posted by: vk | Jan 22 2021 17:41 utc | 102

They sound pretty much like American Boy's Town to me

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 22 2021 17:32 utc | 94

You and William Gruff have had the strangest experiences as Americans. Which town was this, Arch? I have no idea which town's boy town resembles re-education camps. Possibly a reference to the child abuse endemic in the West?

An honest assessment of China's re-education camps for non-Han Muslims is that is it Camp X-Ray Lite applied at scale.

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 22 2021 17:41 utc | 103

Mr. Arch Bungle:

No one has the power to break people and then to rebuild them save God.

Mankind is not given that power, mankind can only destroy other men, and cannot heal them or mend them beyond the flest (not even that very well).

Posted by: fyi | Jan 22 2021 17:43 utc | 104

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 22 2021 17:39 utc | 98

Nothing I have written would indicate a "fanatic". Cite or shutup.

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 22 2021 17:46 utc | 105

Posted by: vk | Jan 22 2021 17:34 utc | 97

Much better. Thank you. We can discuss these items. Permit me a previously scheduled leisurely walk and I will response later.

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 22 2021 17:48 utc | 106

Posted by: fyi | Jan 22 2021 17:43 utc | 104


No one has the power to break people and then to rebuild them save God.

Mankind is not given that power, mankind can only destroy other men, and cannot heal them or mend them beyond the flest (not even that very well).

You are naive. Men are broken and rebuilt on a regular basis by Society, Culture and it's attendant phenomena in a million subtle ways.

The tools are many and their permutations many more: War and Peace. Money and Poverty. Love and Lust. Hatred and Contempt.

Truth, Lies and Propaganda.

It has been this way since our ancestors first stood on two legs.

Look around you and it'll slowly sink in.

God has rebuilt nothing. Though, those who preach in his name may have done so ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 22 2021 17:57 utc | 107

Mr. Arch Bungle

You be wrong.

Empirically, Mental Institutions all over the world are filled with broken human beings that cannot be mended by human powers.

Conceptually, "Culture". i.e. "the way thing are done in here", and "Society", i.e. "a collection of human beings", lack Agency.

In regards to the rest of your comments, I think it useful if you start from the perennial question of Plato: "What is Justice?"

If one could answer that question, everything else will fall in its proper place - will be Justified.

Posted by: fyi | Jan 22 2021 18:03 utc | 108

fyi | Jan 22 2021 17:34 utc | 96,

In my opinion, it is an insult to Islam and Christianity to put Falun Gong with them.

Historically speaking and in general, China is not against any specific religion. However, Chinese governments over more than 2000 years don't allow people to use religion to organize for political purposes.

Chinese are free to choose what they believe. There are Buddhist, Christians, Muslims, and people who believe in folk religions. As a whole, China does not promote any specific religion most of the time. You cannot say China is one way or another.

How do you define whether China understand god or not? And which god? China is a country of more than 1.4 billion people. It is by your definition and you can say whatever you want and change it whenever you want. Your view looks very biased and unable to reason. There is no value to keep the conversation with you.

Posted by: LuRenJia | Jan 22 2021 18:03 utc | 109

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 22 2021 17:41 utc | 103


You and William Gruff have had the strangest experiences as Americans. Which town was this, Arch? I have no idea which town's boy town resembles re-education camps. Possibly a reference to the child abuse endemic in the West?

You leap too easily to conclusions, it is characteristic of your thinking. I am not American.

Firstly, explain to me what a "re-education camp" resembles? We can move forward from there ...

It may help if you studied the global Boys Town phenomenon, as it seems you may be too young to remember the issues surrounding it.


An honest assessment of China's re-education camps for non-Han Muslims is that is it Camp X-Ray Lite applied at scale.

Your statement is rather peculiar:


Possibly a reference to the child abuse endemic in the West?

... are you sure you want to get into that?


Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 22 2021 18:03 utc | 110

@ Jen | Jan 22 2021 6:24 utc | 55... thanks jen... i had seen that some time ago... it is good to highlight it again here..

Posted by: james | Jan 22 2021 18:14 utc | 111

American Muslim @105

The nickname that you chose for yourself, perhaps?

Don't take it personally as someone who labelled themselves "American Christian" would also qualify as fanatic.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 22 2021 18:17 utc | 112

@vk

"Lenin didn't invent any "ethnic identity". Those peoples already were causing a lot of separatist headache to the Russian Empire by the time Lenin was born."

Lenin didn't invent "ethnic identity". But he insisted on making it the defining characteristic of each Soviet republic. On amplifying it, essentializing it (but I already said all that).

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Jan 22 2021 18:32 utc | 113

Mr. LuRenJia

There is a great religious hunger all over the world - even such staunchly religious countries such as Iran or Saudi Arabia.

It is in the light of that impulse that Falun Gong must be understood.

You do not understand Han Chinese - like their Korean or Japanese neighbors - their understanding of the word "religion" is not the same as what people understand by that term in Western Eurasia and the Americas. They cannot grasp easily the role of religion in such places as India or Italy.

Posted by: fyi | Jan 22 2021 19:04 utc | 114

Posted by: vk | Jan 22 2021 17:34 utc | 97

Addressing your items (verbatim) below, using "AM".

But the circumstantial evidence overwhelmingly favors China's version of the story.

1) An obscure NGO interviewed eight random Uighurs and concluded there were "1 million" dead Uighurs in China's "concentration camps".

AM: The only numbers I am interested in are: (a) how many Uighurs have committed criminal acts, and (b) how many are now being re-educated. That ratio is of interest. I agree that pronouncements by any NGO should not be taken at face value.

2) The claim the term "reeducation camp" is an euphemism to "concentration camp" came exclusively from this NGO and the Western MSM.

AM: A concentration camp is a device to 'hold people'. a re-education camp is a device to 'change people'. Regardless of what this nameless NGO has said, we know CCP is engaged in re-education given the videos they have produced to showcase their 'success' in re-educating Uighurs.

AM: If you wish to point blank deny that there is any systemic re-education effort by CCP then say so. Wrapping it in straw borrowed by suspect NGOs is not adding any light.

3) There are no bodies or images or film to prove the alleged "genocide".

AM: I have not used that word, not even once. Let's hope we are both "fanatical" about proper usage of language and frowning on politicized distortion of the same.

4) Economic and demographic data for Xinjiang - from within and outside China - all indicate the province is flourishing, not shrinking (as is the pattern of a genocided province; see the Roman practice in Ancient times).

AM: Genocide is a red-herring, in context of our conversation. Btw, as you present yourself as a hardcore Marxist, let me point out that NSDP could also point to "flourishing Germany".

5) Coupled with the economic and demographic data, the data on the number of terrorist attacks in Xinjiang since 2009 indicate the reeducation project is working.

AM: So the failure of CCP security services to prevent terrorist attacks is the justification for wholesale re-education. Draining the lake certainly does away with bad fishies, but alas also kills a lot of harmless fish.

“If you cannot catch the fish, you have to drain the sea.” - the late God Emperor of CCP

6) The links between the CIA and radicalization and formation of Uighur terrorist militias has already been proved, so China's national security arguments are backed up by reality.

AM: This is a common fact of geopolitical games world over. If this is a legitimate excuse for a state to apply collective behavior modification and brain washing against a demographic, then humanity is facing a very dark future.

AM: Again, what would inform this sort of excuse is a definitive number pair: number of terrorists in employee of CIA, and, number of Uighars in re-education camps. If the ratio is in double digit percentage, then fine, China really had no choice. But as common sense would indicate the ratio is likely a fraction of 1%, then that is entirely different matter.


7) If there's economic potential for Xinjiang, it is objectively cheaper and more efficient for China to really reeducate and integrate the native Uighur population to China's socialist economy than to waste billions and billions of Dollars in extermination camps that will only destroy future prospects of economic growth for the region. In this case, the Third Reich provides us a practical example of this: by exterminating the Ukrainian population when it was winning on the South Front of WWII, it lost popular support in that region, thus never being able to firmly control it, let alone fully integrate the territory to its war machine. On the other side, the USSR enjoyed heavy popular support in the Nazi occupied areas of Eastern and Southeastern Europe (future Yugoslavia), and was thus able to form, equip and command many partizan militias that worn down the Wehrmacht.

AM: "Extermination camps" is a strawman. I have said no such thing. Re-education camps: behavior modification and brain washing. BTW, this technique doesn't need to be applied to 100% of the target demographic, just to an unreasonable degree so that even non-CIA non-Al-CIAda non-Israeli Secret Intelligent Service (aka ISIS) Uighar Muslims feel INSECURE enough so they will start changing behavior to match the expected behavior.

8) Xinjiang is indispensable for the BRI. The last thing China wants to happen is for Xinjiang to become a second Afghanistan. Economic development is essential to avoid this scenario.

AM: Again, the failure of the CCP and Chinese to safe guard strategic economic assets is not a viable excuse for ham fisted re-education of Muslims. (Ironic to point this out in context of China. Someone forgot about the story of the three brothers who were famed physicians. Hint: The best of the brothers was an unknown who cured disease before it even manifested symptoms. CCP is acting like the least brother.)

Posted by: vk | Jan 22 2021 17:34 utc | 97

In sum, dispensing with the NGO stuff (which we can all agree is suspect info always), and dispensing with straw man of "extermination" or "concentration" camps, you point out that the ineffectiveness of Chinese security services coupled with strategic economic conditions, in a world where the CIA, SIS, and ISIS services use local societal fissures to make life difficult for the local state, it is fine and dandy for a nation that is putting itself forward as a model for governance in 21st century to resort to gross and collective violation of human rights of suspect demographics.

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 22 2021 20:55 utc | 115

Antonym | Jan 22 2021 2:44 utc | 40

There (aka their) strength of 8 millions is The threat to world peace - according to some biased and numerically challenged.

Never mind the quantity! Feel the quality, My Dear!!

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 22 2021 21:23 utc | 116

@101 karlof1

Thanks for the link and your comment. I just posted a comment in the open thread that I won't try to copy over here, but it ties with what you and the Global Times are saying. I will highlight its essence:

Infectious diseases expert and University of Edinburgh professor Mark Woolhouse acknowledged that the decision to lockdown the UK last March was a “crude measure” that was enacted because “we couldn’t think of anything better to do.”

...the US would have preferred simply to ignore the virus and let the epidemic take its course, as a killer flu or some such story, with eventually a vaccine-for-profit available, all part of normal commerce.

China's example shamed, humbled or at the very least nudged everyone to try to emulate its success.

And the west fumbled this completely.
- open thread comment 149

It's good to see this concept get some legs in the world. It needs to become the irrefutable historical judgment of this moment in our age.

Posted by: Grieved | Jan 22 2021 21:30 utc | 117

Martin | Jan 22 2021 2:52 utc | 42

Just how reliable are the numbers reported by China government?

How many examples of "Lying Chinese statistics" can you point to? At the start of the pandemic the MSM were full of statements to the effect tthat China was grossly under-reporting the casualties from CV-19. Later the Chinese reported that indeed in the heat of the early battle they had missed about twice as many as were reported because they were symptomless.

The performance of the Chinese economy shows that the figures they gave, while smaller than the real ones, were not an order of magnitude out.

We are constantly told that the Chinese economy is "about to collapse under a colossal debt mountain" and that therefore the Chinese government is lying when it says that "all is under control". So far, i.e. for the last 70 years they seem to have been more or less correct.

OTOH, the food disaster that was part of the "Great Leap Forward" was caused by lower level organs reporting harvests that were much larger than the real figures. Since then, any official pumping up the figures for which he is responsible, to gain "face", is likely to wish he hadn't.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 22 2021 21:43 utc | 118

American Muslim @105

The nickname that you chose for yourself, perhaps?

Don't take it personally ...

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 22 2021 18:17 utc | 112

It's rather idiotic to take anonymous exchanges on the internet personally. Even more so if the counter party exhibits unmistakable signs of being a troll with distinctly limited faculties.

--

Dear MOA, as for handle used in this discussion: The topic is plight of Muslims in China. Many Muslim, you may be interested to know, recognize that we enjoy greater religious freedoms here in America than would in nominally Muslim societies.

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 22 2021 21:43 utc | 119

@fyi | Jan 22 2021 16:01 utc | 76

Re-education camps are designed to break the will of an individual, trample on his innate human dignity, and cower him into obedience.

Some reeducation camps are bad and some are good. Just as some schools can train death squads (like the School of the Americas), but most are innocently training children. Claiming that all reeducation camps are equally malign is as bad as claiming that all schools are evil.

Using names properly is important. To Confucious, the Rectification of Names is the first duty of the state: "If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success. When affairs cannot be carried on to success, proprieties and music do not flourish. When proprieties and music do not flourish, punishments will not be properly awarded. When punishments are not properly awarded, the people do not know how to move hand or foot."

Posted by: Cyril | Jan 22 2021 21:51 utc | 120

Triden | Jan 22 2021 3:18 utc | 45

You know you're on the right side of history when you find yourself reduced to arguing over the correct nomenclature for prison camps

Sarcasm aside, if you were the Chinese government, what would you do with the Uighurs?

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 22 2021 21:55 utc | 121

Jackrabbit | Jan 22 2021 3:59 utc | 49

I still think we are on the path to war and it's very concerning to me.

!!

Yesterday, I read a statement in the Global Times, I think it was by the FM, to the effect that "China does not want a war, but is not afraid of one." Reading that, I was struck by the symmetry of that statement; when one considers the US position on the same subject. One could sum it up as "The USA does want a war but is afraid of one."

My feeling is that no general wants to start a war that he is afraid he is going to lose. The Pentagon has done numerous war games and as far as I have read they have always lost. So I have hopes that the current situation will not descend into an outright shooting war.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 22 2021 22:15 utc | 122

Martin | Jan 22 2021 4:28 utc | 52

For example, China does not include asymptomatic cases in its Covid19 tally, unlike everyone else. Its true number is many more times higher than what it officially reports.

How do you count asymptomatic cases correctly unless you test the whole population? I.e. the UK has tested only a small fraction of the population. How can they report accurately how many of them are symptomless cases? They can guess, but why bother?

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 22 2021 22:24 utc | 123

foolisholdman @121--

I see nobody has attempted to answer your critical question. IMO, the answer's easy: Give the Uighurs a stake in the nation they reside within, and that certainly means education and training. That's what the White Paper China published on the topic says they've done. The shared goal of Russia and China is that of a unified people living within a unified nation striving to increase the wellbeing and dignity of all. Egalitarian aims have always been fought against by the West, especially by the English who waged genocide against those seeking such a life.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 22 2021 22:27 utc | 124

BM | Jan 22 2021 10:43 utc | 62


Feed in a link to a NYT article in NewSpeak, and get an automatic machine-translation into proper English. I am sure NYT and WP readers would be delighted, and would be much better informed.

Sounds like an exercise for a student of AI!

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 22 2021 22:34 utc | 125

Mr Cyril

Please name once such Re-education camp that has been "good".

Posted by: fyi | Jan 22 2021 22:43 utc | 126

Grieved @117--

The key to China's lockdown was the immediate building of the infrastructure required to cope with the situation and allocation of people to fight the pandemic as the two excellent Infographics displays show. Another key was having the ability to test and trace from day one--a capability no other nation has yet amassed, which a year later is as baffling as it's amazing. Last, as the bolded excerpt stated that is the complete polar opposite of all propaganda aimed at China, China cares about its people--or perhaps that should be restated to say that Chinese people care about all other Chinese people which is displayed through the government's actions--AND--those of the millions of volunteers who didn't just go to Wuhan to help but went to the factories producing the PPP gear, who erected the hospitals and other buildings. The mobilization of China was something to behold. The short video serves as an excellent reminder of that effort. And it's emotional since so many thousands have died that didn't have to all because it was deemed politically incorrect to emulate China's actions. And that political crap continues today and will go on tomorrow--all For a few Dollars More.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 22 2021 22:55 utc | 127

I recently came across a comment on a Canadian financial blog (and that comment itself was re-posting something written elsewhere) that had some interesting points relating to this topic and discussion. With some minor tweaks:

"They claimed that China conducts ethnic cleansing in Xinjiang. The fact is China has a policy that prioritizes ethnic minorities. For a long time, the ethnic minorities were allowed to have two children while the majority Han were only allowed one child. The minorities are allowed a lower score threshold for university entry. There are 39,000 mosques in China compared to 2,100 in the US. China has about 3 times more mosques per Muslim than the US does.

When terrorist attacks occurred in Xinjiang province, China had two choices:

1. Re-educate the Uighur extremists before they turn into terrorists.
2. Let them be, and after they launch attacks and kill innocent people, bomb their homes.

China chose approach 1 to solve problem at the root and not do killing. How does the US solve terrorism? Fire missiles from battleships, drop bombs from the sky."

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Jan 22 2021 23:26 utc | 128

Re-education of extremists seems like a better approach than the death and destruction the US has brought to millions of Muslims and their societies and countries over the past two decades.

-

Besides re-education of extremists, there's just plain education of the non-extremist majority of ethnic minorities to help them make a living and lift themselves up. Those are vocational training centers, not "camps", a word that's being over-used in some comments.

-

Related to ethnic minorities being allowed more children than Han, and being granted preferential access to much-sought-after university education, there's also the fact that the Uighur language is one of only five languages printed on the Chinese national currency ...

These facts simply do not align with the "genocide" or "cultural genocide" narrative being pushed by the US/West. Our hypocritical mainstream news media have absolutely no problem pushing unsubstantiated and baseless allegations when it suits their agenda.

-

Another point that might be worth adding is why haven't those ostensibly so concerned about Muslim rights allegedly being violated in Xinjiang shown even a fraction of the concern for those of the Muslim-majority people in India's Jammu And Kashmir state? As b wrote in August 2019, "Since yesterday all communication lines to J&K are cut. Local leaders were put under house arrest and all schools and public institutions are closed."

The entire state has been locked down and communications blacked out for almost a year and half now?

Western media, and those that buy into their narratives, have been pretty much silent about that all while conducting a massive propaganda campaign when it comes to Xinjiang.

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Jan 22 2021 23:26 utc | 129

karlof1 | Jan 22 2021 22:27 utc | 124
Thanks for the reply! The question was aimed at Triden.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 22 2021 23:29 utc | 130

Canadian Cents @129--

An excellent outing of PR acting as news and another form of PR that's known as the Blackout!

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 22 2021 23:56 utc | 131

Re-education of extremists seems like a better approach than the death and destruction the US has brought to millions of Muslims and their societies and countries over the past two decades.

-

Besides re-education of extremists, there's just plain education of the non-extremist majority of ethnic minorities to help them make a living and lift themselves up. Those are vocational training centers, not "camps", a word that's being over-used in some comments.

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Jan 22 2021 23:26 utc | 129

"Re-education of extremists": This has been addressed. It begs credulity to think that even the majority of the inmates of the re-education camps are "extremists".

"a better approach than the death and destruction the US has brought to millions of Muslims and their societies and countries over the past two decades."

Actually US practices "better approaches" afforded to the state by its more advanced and nuanced counter intelligence operations.

FBI famously infiltrates and takes control of all sorts of movements. It should not be necessary to document this in this forum. Positively, this surveillance and penetration approach allows the state to maintain a facade of civility and not hoard masses of American Muslims into FEMA camps. Negatively, it has historically eroded confidence in dissident political movements and is a major deligitimizing aspect of e.g. antifa/blm, etc.

So yes, I don't believe there exists a single Mosque in US that does not have cameras inside and out. (None of the churches I have visited have cameras inside.) But at least they are not sending us collectively to re-education camp.

The Chinese state is either (charitably) incapable of fielding effective counter intelligence operations so they are acting out of desperation, or, (less charitably) is exhibiting historic Communist and "Chinese characteristics" in dealing with social issues, which is to say 'go big, go collective'. Its a bit crude. One expected more from a 5000 year old civilization.

"Another point that might be worth adding is why haven't those ostensibly so concerned about Muslim rights allegedly being violated in Xinjiang shown even a fraction of the concern for those of the Muslim-majority people in India's Jammu And Kashmir state?"

If B puts up a post regarding the Indian state, we'll have a go at it. Beyond that, we note that India is not even remotely expected to be calling the shots and establishing governance norms in the world at large. China, however, is. And further, no one in this forum afaik is cheering Hindu fundamentalism.

These sort of whataboutisms are red herrings. You have people *cheering* the CCP re-education camps and justifying it. It demands a response.

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 0:04 utc | 132

@ Canadian Cents @ 128/129.... those are an excellent couple of comments from you and from who you've shared.. thank you for stating all that.. it needs repeating..

Posted by: james | Jan 23 2021 0:09 utc | 133

@ 132 american muslim... how do you explain the usa's support for ksa and its export of the heachopper cult ideology in the madrassas around the globe?? this has been going on since at least the 70's.. that is especially charitable of the usa for all the wrong reasons as i see it... of course wanting to create a religious divide and conquer among shite and sunni is also what it looks like to me too..

Posted by: james | Jan 23 2021 0:14 utc | 134

@ 132 american muslim... how do you explain the usa's support for ksa and its export of the heachopper cult ideology in the madrassas around the globe?? this has been going on since at least the 70's.. that is especially charitable of the usa for all the wrong reasons as i see it... of course wanting to create a religious divide and conquer among shite and sunni is also what it looks like to me too..

Posted by: james | Jan 23 2021 0:14 utc | 134

Conflating issues hampers effective thinking.

KSA is the result of the initial English romanticising of Arabs (which possibly was sealed with a passionate kiss between Lawrence and a young bedouin man) and a more hard nosed desire to damage if not defeat Ottoman and Russian empires. This established the Saudi clan, diminished (and later incorporated) the Hashemi clan, and Wahabism came as part of the Saudi package.

Later, an Englishman (who fathered yet another English spook homosexual, he of the Cambridge Five fame) then undertook to pass the baton of Saudi patronage to the AngloZionist power that had just won the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_John_Philby

The 70s strategic embrace of Saudi Arabia (which apparently required the violent dispatch of a Saudi King) was ironically a prong of the double pronged strategy 9devised by Henry Kissinger's behind the curtain life-long employers) that also included a reapproachment with China.


--

To document the ills of various powers throughout history is entirely besides the point.

We are here and it is now. What matters now, specially given that Henry Kissinger's life-long employers have already 'pivoted' to China and CCP, and we are finally seeing the entirely predictable (if not collapse of United States of America then certain) diminishment of US after 20 years of ill advised misadventure (by yet another coterie of mini-Henrys), is to consider what awaits us Human beings under the regime of the new boss.

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 0:40 utc | 135

I again link to this Chinese White Paper, "Employment and Labor Rights in Xinjiang", that too few seem to have read. China also publishes these papers for its people to read, and lying to the people is viewed as a very serious type of corruption in China unlike in many other nations. Clearly, the Outlaw US Empire doesn't want anyone to know of the existence of such publications and would rather everyone drink its PR Koolaid. Apparently, not enough people learned the Jim Jones Lesson when it comes to willingly guzzling PR Koolaid--It's Deadly.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 23 2021 0:42 utc | 136

Actually the US bringing death and destruction to Muslim societies goes back more than just the past two decades (2001-2021). The past four decades of Wahhabi extremism and violence, including the suffering in Afghanistan, stems from what the US did.

In 1979, the US began to covertly foster Wahhabi extremism in Afghanistan to, in the words of Zbigniew Brzezinski, "induce" a brutal war in order to inflict on "the USSR its Vietnam war," at the casual expense of thoroughly destroying the country and society of the people of Afghanistan for decades.

Robert Gates, the former Defense Secretary under George W. Bush and Barack Obama, and former CIA director under George H. Bush and Ronald Reagan, stated in his 1996 memoirs "From the Shadows" that American intelligence services began to aid the opposing factions in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet deployment in 1979.

That confirms what Zbigniew Brzezinski, former National Security Adviser to Jimmy Carter and also an adviser to Barack Obama, stated in a 1988 interview:

"According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979."

"But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise. Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention."

"That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap [..] The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war [..]"

- Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser, foreign policy advisor to Barack Obama, in Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

From the book "Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia" by Ahmed Rashid:

"The US committed some four to five billion dollars between 1980 and 1992 in aid to the Mujaheddin. [..] Most of this aid was in the form of lethal modern weaponry [..] Prior to the war the Islamicists barely had a base in Afghan society, but with money and arms from the CIA pipeline and support from Pakistan, they built one and wielded tremendous clout."

"In 1986, CIA chief William Casey [..] committed CIA support to a long-standing ISI initiative to recruit radical Muslims from around the world to come to Pakistan and fight with the Afghan Mujaheddin. The ISI had encouraged this since 1982. [..] Between 1982 and 1992, some 35,000 Muslim radicals from 43 Islamic countries in the Middle East, North and East Africa, Central Asia and the Far East would pass their baptism under fire with the Afghan Mujaheddin. Tens of thousands more foreign Muslim radicals came to study in the hundreds of new madrassas that Zia's military government began to fund in Pakistan and along the Afghan border. Eventually more than 100,000 Muslim radicals were to have direct contact with Pakistan and Afghanistan and be influenced by the jihad."

Afghanistan has had brutal war - and drugs, warlords and druglords, and all the suffering from those - imposed on it for four decades now by the US.

It's not just Afghanistan where relatively stable, developed/developing Islamic societies suffered, but also Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc. Muslims have suffered so much around the world in the past four decades because of Wahhabi extremism that the US has fostered and used as a proxy force or as justification for regime change and long-term military occupation. If Muslims in places like Xinjiang (or the US, etc.) face more scrutiny, the blame lies with the US/CIA/Saudis, not the countries targeted for destabilization via Wahhabi extremism.

-

james @133/134, thanks! This comment is a longer version of what you just brought up too.

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Jan 23 2021 0:43 utc | 137

How long do the internees stay, on average? Are they given pre-arranged jobs on release? I wish we had more information and stats on what is going on. It's not enough to say it's useless to counter western misinformation on Xinjiang. Instead of silence (or propaganda from the Chinese side) we need accurate, comprehensive and unbiased information. I believe such information would relieve much of the pressure from the West because it would give those of us who don't believe the propaganda but have nothing else to believe, we would finally have something to say behind closed doors at think tanks and editorial boards. Right now, we are forced to sit there and say nothing because we HAVE NO INFORMATION!

Posted by: Jay Henderson | Jan 23 2021 0:55 utc | 138

I again link to this Chinese White Paper, "Employment and Labor Rights in Xinjiang", that too few seem to have read. China also publishes these papers for its people to read, and lying to the people is viewed as a very serious type of corruption in China unlike in many other nations. Clearly, the Outlaw US Empire doesn't want anyone to know of the existence of such publications and would rather everyone drink its PR Koolaid. Apparently, not enough people learned the Jim Jones Lesson when it comes to willingly guzzling PR Koolaid--It's Deadly.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 23 2021 0:42 utc | 136

It's funny you mention PR kookaid after posting a link to a "whitepaper". Given that yours is not a comedic role at the bar, one is left with the unsettling conclusion that you think moa comment readers stupid.

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 0:58 utc | 139

Here's a YouTube video of US Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, who, if I'm not mistaken, was Colin Powell's chief of staff when the US invaded Iraq in 2003.

The YouTube link starts playback at 20 minutes and 37 seconds into his 2018 talk at the Ron Paul conference on Media & War. If you listen to the 3 minute segment from there, he states that the US military will be in Afghanistan for the next 50 years, just as it has been in Germany (and Japan) for past 75 years. One of the reasons for this, he states, is so that the US can disrupt China's Belt and Road Initiative near its starting point in Xinjiang. Another reason he states for this US military presence (ostensibly to fight Wahhabi extremism) is so that the US can use Uighur (Wahhabi) extremists to destabilize China.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91wz5syVNZs&t=20m37s

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Jan 23 2021 1:09 utc | 140

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Jan 23 2021 0:43 utc | 137

I have made it abundantly clear that equating actions of a beligerant state/empire on target nations is one thing, and the actions of a state on its own citizens another. Everybody and their mommy knows that AngloZionism sees Islam as an obstacle. Is this news?

There is a very specific and clear item on the table:

Is what Chinese Communist Party and the Chinese state doing to its own citizens, who happen to differ ethnically, religiously, and possibly ideologically from the Han Chinese, in line with expectations of a humanity that is progressing?

All of a sudden, re-education camps come in two flavors (good and bad) and the Chinese version is definitely Good. (There is a whitepaper if you wanna read ..)

All of a sudden, it is OK for a state to put not insignificant number of Muslim Men into re-education camps. They are just like boys town and "higher education", didn't you know?

It's a very strange world, this new normal. Re-education camps are good. Free speech is bad.

And as long as Henry's life-long employers can put an Orange clown and a Pompous Ass on the stage, that is enough cover for others to go full-on evil. This is a fairly common pattern, btw.

--

"It's not just Afghanistan where relatively stable, developed/developing Islamic societies suffered, but also Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc. Muslims have suffered so much around the world in the past four decades because of Wahhabi extremism that the US has fostered and used as a proxy force or as justification for regime change and long-term military occupation. If Muslims in places like Xinjiang (or the US, etc.) face more scrutiny, the blame lies with the US/CIA/Saudis, not the countries targeted for destabilization via Wahhabi extremism."

I happen to have been born in Iran. My analysis of Iran's condition regrettably and inevitably leads to the conclusion that "character is destiny". I can't speak for natives of other neighboring vicinities, but rather sadly we're supposed to be the smart set of the bunch.

The AngloZionist were using Chinese as little better than pack animals and lording it over them in their own cities. Yet somehow the Chinese managed to get out from under their thumb.

Muslim nations suffer because of unbelievable incompetence, nepotism, and lack of actual Islam of its rulers, and the long standing psychological defeat of the people of these lands.

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 1:16 utc | 141

@ Posted by: Jay Henderson | Jan 23 2021 0:55 utc | 138

Here you go:

Full Text: Vocational Education and Training in Xinjiang

All the information is there. I highly recommend everybody who commented here to read it wholly.

Posted by: vk | Jan 23 2021 1:34 utc | 142

This is a valuable document on the subject...


BEIJING, Sept. 17 (Xinhua) -- China's State Council Information Office on Thursday published a white paper titled "Employment and Labor Rights in Xinjiang."

Employment and Labor Rights in Xinjiang

The State Council Information Office of the People's Republic of China

September 2020

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-09/17/c_139373591.htm

Posted by: daffyDuct | Jan 23 2021 1:46 utc | 143

"Over the years, to ensure public safety and wellbeing, the international community has spared no effort and made tremendous sacrifices in preventing and combating terrorism and extremism. Many countries and regions, in light of their own conditions, have developed effective measures and drawn valuable lessons from these efforts."

Translation: this is just War on Terror folks, in China.

Some of you suffering from misinformation thought WoTA was a flimsly pretext for AngloZionists (aka "Evil American Empire" not to be confused with actual Empire in City of London) to go full-on batshit crazy and do some old fashion conquering, but no, it is real and this is our Chinese version.

"Xinjiang is a key battlefield in the fight against terrorism and extremism in China. For some time Xinjiang has been plagued by terrorism and religious extremism, which pose a serious threat to the lives of the people in the region. Addressing both the symptoms and root causes and integrating preventative measures and a forceful response, Xinjiang has established vocational education and training centers in accordance with the law to prevent the breeding and spread of terrorism and religious extremism, effectively curbing the frequent terrorist incidents and protecting the rights to life, health, and development of the people of all ethnic groups. Worthwhile results have been achieved."

Noticeably, "right of conscience" is missing.

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people, - UN Human Rights Charter - preamble

Here again we charitably note that resorting to re-education camps for suspect demographics may simply be an indication of the incompetence of CCP counter intelligence. If this is the excuse, should we expect and be OK with EU putting Muslim Men in camps? Should we expect to see "whitepapers" like this written in French?

"The fight against terrorism and extremism is a global challenge."

I guess the answer is mais oui.

--

The fact that the limited scope of knowledge and interactions of a demographic make them susceptible to manipulation is undisputed.

That this is happening in a far flung region of China, and that ethnic or religious instruments are being used by other ignorant or malicious external actors is entirely believable.

That China is specially sensitive in this region due to both historic and contemporary reasons is also not even remotely questioned.

What is questioned is the "final solution" of the Chinese.

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 1:57 utc | 144

"It's funny you mention PR kookaid after posting a link to a "whitepaper". Given that yours is not a comedic role at the bar, one is left with the unsettling conclusion that you think moa comment readers stupid.
Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 0:58 utc | 139"

A pretty deep analysis of the document, AM. Well done!

For the curious, AM dismisses the following:
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-09/17/c_139373591.htm


Posted by: daffyDuct | Jan 23 2021 2:00 utc | 145

The admirable Qiao Collective has put together a resource page on Xinjiang. I'm pretty sure that b linked to it in a recent piece on that topic:

Xinjiang: A Report and Resource Compilation - Sep 21 [2020] - Written By Qiao Collective

Based on a handful of think tank reports and witness testimonies, Western governments have levied false allegations of genocide and slavery in Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. A closer look makes clear that the politicization of China’s anti-terrorism policies in Xinjiang is another front of the U.S.-led hybrid war on China.

This resource compilation provides a starting point for critical inquiry into the historical context and international response to China’s policies in Xinjiang, providing a counter-perspective to misinformation that abounds in mainstream coverage of the autonomous region.

There is no excuse for not knowing the truth of Xinjiang. As we discussed in a recent thread, it now becomes clear that the CPC's response to the insurrection in Xinjiang is very similar to its response to the western-led insurrection in Tibet. In both cases, the western play was the same, and the Chinese response has been the same. Both times great success on China's part - an amazingly generous and humanitarian approach to the actual "subornation of sedition" within its borders.

~~

I always wonder why people come here to argue - this is the path of idiocy. I think most people come here to agree - this is the path of productivity.

Posted by: Grieved | Jan 23 2021 2:04 utc | 146

"Posted by: Grieved | Jan 23 2021 2:04 utc | 146"

Thanks for that link!

Posted by: daffyDuct | Jan 23 2021 2:32 utc | 147

@ 135 american muslim...yes - i agree with you and just what awaits us?? hard to know!

@ 137 canadian cents.. thanks.. yes - this has been going on for some time... so much of it seems about divide and conquer in the middle east on the part of uk-usa..

Posted by: james | Jan 23 2021 2:39 utc | 148

@ Grieved 146
"There is no excuse for not knowing the truth of Xinjiang. As we discussed in a recent thread, it now becomes clear that the CPC's response to the insurrection in Xinjiang is very similar to its response to the western-led insurrection in Tibet. In both cases, the western play was the same, and the Chinese response has been the same. Both times great success on China's part - an amazingly generous and humanitarian approach to the actual "subornation of sedition" within its borders."

Western led? Are there no indigenous populations in Tibet or Xinjiang with an own will? They have been colonized by the CPC Han now for 70 years, and are minorities on their own soil already. What has been left of their own cultures? Mao's power came out of the barrel of a gun publicly. (MoA's not)

The double standards here are Covid-19 breath taking, I am grieved.

Posted by: Antonym | Jan 23 2021 2:54 utc | 149

Sarcasm aside, if you were the Chinese government, what would you do with the Uighurs?

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 22 2021 21:55 utc | 121

Get the hell out of a land that isn't "Chinese"? And this time stay out.

They have no more business being there than do Khazars in Palestine, Yanks in Germany, Yanks in Iraq, Russians in Poland, French in the Ruhr, French in Algeria, Spanish in Marrocco nor Brits in Ireland.

Historically the place was never Chinese other than for relatively short periods of time, against the will of the locals, and only by forceable conquest.

Posted by: Triden | Jan 23 2021 2:58 utc | 150

@ Antonym | Jan 23 2021 2:54 utc | 149 who wrote
"
The double standards here are Covid-19 breath taking, I am grieved.
"

One might ask what high and mighty ground you are standing on? Is it a colony of global private finance? Has not empire performed aggressive suppression of indigenous all over the world for centuries?

Why don't you take your worthless obfuscation to another bar.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jan 23 2021 3:05 utc | 151

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 23 2021 0:42 utc | 136

It's funny you mention PR kookaid after posting a link to a "whitepaper". Given that yours is not a comedic role at the bar, one is left with the unsettling conclusion that you think moa comment readers stupid.

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 0:58 utc | 139

You're talking to someone that cannot simply write "US" but feels the need instead to performatively always add Outlaw Empire. Someone who constantly self-references. Not only does he appear to gets all his economic news from a very overt bitcoin ponzi scheme promoter, he gets it 6 months to a year after its first been mentioned here and been at the time pompously and buffoonishly ignored or dismissed by him.

He's hilariously comedic. Just completely unwittingly so

Posted by: Triden | Jan 23 2021 3:10 utc | 152

Canadian Cents #137

Actually the US bringing death and destruction to Muslim societies goes back more than just the past two decades (2001-2021). The past four decades of Wahhabi extremism and violence, including the suffering in Afghanistan, stems from what the US did.

In 1979, the US began to covertly foster Wahhabi extremism in Afghanistan to, in the words of Zbigniew Brzezinski, "induce" a brutal war in order to inflict on "the USSR its Vietnam war," at the casual expense of thoroughly destroying the country and society of the people of Afghanistan for decades.

Try Indonesia 1965 and here is a report in the Atlantic worth a read.

In Indonesia in October 1965, Suharto, a powerful Indonesian military leader, accused the Indonesian Communist Party (PKI) of organizing a brutal coup attempt, following the kidnapping and murder of six high-ranking army officers. Over the months that followed, he oversaw the systematic extermination of up to a million Indonesians for affiliation with the party, or simply for being accused of harboring leftist sympathies. He then took power and ruled as dictator, with U.S. support, until 1998.

This week, the non-profit National Security Archive, along with the National Declassification Center, published a batch of U.S. diplomatic cables covering that dark period. While the newly declassified documents further illustrated the horror of Indonesia’s 1965 mass murder, they also confirmed that U.S. authorities backed Suharto’s purge. Perhaps even more striking: As the documents show, U.S. officials knew most of his victims were entirely innocent. U.S. embassy officials even received updates on the executions and offered help to suppress media coverage. While crucial documents that could provide insight into U.S. and Indonesian activities at the time are still lacking, the broad outlines of the atrocity and America’s role are there for anyone who cares to look them up.

THe USA stooge Suharto needed little encouragement and unleashed a Holocaust against Chinese citizens resident in Indonesia plus the 'communist' Indonesians. They used the bigotry of Islam toward non-believers as the lever/justification to exterminate.

The USAi has been butchering its way across the planet for something like a century. As I posted elsewhere: the USAi is the modern equivalent of Hernan Cortes and the people of this earth of mankind should respond accordingly.

Dadang Christanto is an extraordinarily dedicated artist who reminds us of the Indonesian Holocaust and the crimes against humanity that are the stock in trade of the USAi and anti-communist private finance capitalists the world over.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 23 2021 3:33 utc | 153

Triden @ 150:

Xinjiang province has been part of China at least since the 1750s when Qing (Manchu) emperor Qianlong crushed the Buddhist Mongol-speaking Dzungars living there and exterminated most of them. The rest fled into the Russian empire to resurface as Kalmucks on the NW Caspian Sea shores. (Vladimir Lenin had some Kalmuck ancestry through his father's mother.) Xinjiang was then repopulated with a mix of Uyghurs (some of whom had participated in the genocide, and were rewarded accordingly with land taken from the Dzungars) and Han Chinese.

Turns out most Uyghurs in northern and western parts of Xinjiang are as much settlers as those other peoples you mentioned.

Posted by: Jen | Jan 23 2021 3:47 utc | 154

American Muslim @ 141

"I happen to have been born in Iran."

That might explain it then, would you be an Ammanpour kind of person?

Posted by: estouxim | Jan 23 2021 4:24 utc | 155

Posted by: Jen | Jan 23 2021 3:47 utc | 154

What you're describing is imperialism. Time for the imperialists to go back home

Posted by: Triden | Jan 23 2021 4:26 utc | 156

@156:
Would you apply the same rule of thumb to places such as Israel, USA, Australia, etc?
These are new settler countries, perhaps?
In such case, Uyghurs are settlers, too; their history in China's Xinjiang is well traced.
Some might even say Uyghurs are violent imperialists, seeking to usurp a land lived in by other communities, and recorded since Han dynasty days.

Posted by: kija | Jan 23 2021 5:23 utc | 157

American Muslim, or just plain American don't know how it feels to live under the constant threat of radicalization. Two decedes ago Indonesia plagued by terrorist that mostly consisted of returnee veteran from Afghanistan War. They see the US as the Big Satan that needs to be cleansed, and see their civilian as the extension of it. They bombed Bali in 2002 with a bomb truk. And then another. Terrorist attack near Christmast become something that should expected. Police force in shopping malls, hotels, and churces was a common sight in end year. All of this caused by just small group of people that came back from Afghanistan.

These people prey on the vulnerables, the marginalized. They promised a place in a world AND afterlife for them to chase for. These recruited people soon become so easy to denounce their own family and that their blood is Halal to be shed upon the ground.

Now imagine your province has land connection to Afghanistan. Imagine that province is impoverished due to uneven development. Better yet, that province was used as a staging ground by the CIA to train Mujahideen to fight the Soviet Union. How do you supposed to deal with such widepsread radicalization? If all of you think reeducation, even if it truly just reeducating people is wrong, then tell me how to deal with the problem of radicalization.

It's so easy for you American who never experienced radicalization problem at home to see reeducation as something sinister. France has it and they come up with reeducation program. So does Indonesia. Funny now that white terrorism in your domestic ground become even more apparent, some of your congress folk already suggesting 'deprogramming' course for these white extremist.

Posted by: Triden | Jan 23 2021 4:26 utc | 156
Including the Uyghurs then? They literally participated in Dzungars genocide and took their place.

Posted by: Hangar | Jan 23 2021 5:26 utc | 158

No, I don't think barflies "stupid;" uninformed and ignorant perhaps. And we're blessed with very sophisticated trolls who drone on and on--drone being a very important descriptor. At least I know what's going on and try to fill an awareness void. It's insurance that keeps me comfortable and secure. I know the answer to the Sphinx's Riddle and how to obtain it; and it's not the easy one from the famous Greek Tragedy. If you're unaware of the total contextual background, you'll fail--it's that simple.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jan 23 2021 7:05 utc | 159

American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 0:04 utc | 132

Perhaps you would care to explain why Pompeo, who had charge as head of the CIA, of Muslims (some of them Uighurs) in Abu Graib and Gitmo was not, AFAIK, at all concerned about their torture and generalized oppression?

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 23 2021 13:23 utc | 160

Jay Henderson | Jan 23 2021 0:55 utc | 138

If you go to http://news.cn/english/, just below Xi's photo, you will find a box called "Share your ides with China's Premier." Why don't you?

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 23 2021 13:35 utc | 161

Not sure what AM is getting at but it seems that if a person is a Muslim then they should be left alone, period. Does not matter if this person is uneducated, brainwashed, head chopper, ignorant, self exploding murderer and being used by others for their own reasons.

Posted by: arby | Jan 23 2021 13:42 utc | 162

American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 1:16 utc | 141

Why do you disbelieve the OIC and believe the MSM, who are well known to be proven liars on innumerable occasions?
Organisation of Islamic Cooperation 'commends' China for ...
Search domain hongkongfp.com/2019/03/14/organisation-islamic-cooperation-commends-china-treatment-muslims/https://hongkongfp.com/2019/03/14/organisation-islamic-cooperation-commends-china-

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 23 2021 13:44 utc | 163

daffyDuct | Jan 23 2021 2:00 utc | 145

Thanks for posting that.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 23 2021 14:47 utc | 164

American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 1:57 utc | 144

Noticeably, "right of conscience" is missing.

Why would any country, not terminally stupid, allow "freedom of conscience" (Or any other sort of freedom) to people whose beliefs tell them that anyone of a different religion to their own, deserves to be killed?

You speak highly of the "intelligence" services of western countries who have infiltrated "subversive" groups and destroyed them from within. You might take a look at the situation in Northern Ireland, where it is now emerging, that a lot of the "Troubles" (Assassinations, knee-cappings, terrorist bombings and all the rest) were frequently master-minded or even in some cases, carried out, by under-cover policemen; With the prior knowledge of their superiors.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 23 2021 15:11 utc | 165

One other question for AM, have you ever considered going to Xinjiang as a tourist to see for yourself what it is like?

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 23 2021 15:13 utc | 166

All over the european press sidestories are released to hype up the opinion about keeping the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq because of taliban and shia bombings (really by american stooges),a new wave of anti-Assad articles,freshly printed uyghurs fugitives written books etc.
Prepare for war.

As long as we do not attack those pundits in person,we are supporting them.Luckily for them they have all jewishlike names,so we wouldn't dare.

Now in France we have curfew at 6 a clock PM,and it seems that a lot of covid officials are Rothscjhild related,like Pompidou and Macron.

Mister Vaccin in Macron's junta is Alain Fischer who is the President of the Fondation Edmond de Rothschild !

.
.
— Président .... Alain Fischer

— Vice Président ...... Benjamin De Rothschild

— Secrétaire Général ..... Julien Gottsmann

— Trésorier ....... Firoz Ladak

— Membre de droit ..... Yves Levy , Président-Directeur Général de L’INSERM,and married to Agnes Buzyn,former health minister,who made hydroxychloroquine illegal two weeks before covid came to France,one year ago.

Bill Gates is working at spreading dust in the atmosphere to counter climate warming.How long do we hesitate to put those guys to sleep?They are insane criminals.I fell from my chair when reading the Cynthia Chung article about HG.Wells.How can such a gifted writer who loves nature and understands human nature as well be such a monster?

How come so many seem to be conspiring to weaken us and finally get us removed from mother earth's surface,instead of putting efforts together so as to make sure every human on this earth can eat his fill and go to sleep quietly at night?All those trillions spent in wars and conspiring could easily have eradicated famine."What have you done!?"

Posted by: willie | Jan 23 2021 15:13 utc | 167

Triden | Jan 23 2021 2:58 utc | 150

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 22 2021 21:55 utc | 121

Get the hell out of a land that isn't "Chinese"? And this time stay out.

You know as well as I do and anyone that has two braincells to rub together, that were the Chinese to follow your advice, there would be a US airbase or three in Xinjiang before you could say 'East Turkestan' and the same goes for Tibet.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 23 2021 15:25 utc | 168

Triden | Jan 23 2021 2:58 utc | 150

Sarcasm aside, if you were the Chinese government, what would you do with the Uighurs?

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 22 2021 21:55 utc | 121

Get the hell out of a land that isn't "Chinese"? And this time stay out.BLOCKQUOTE>

You know as well as I do as does anyone that has two braincells to rub together, that were the Chinese to follow your advice, there would be a US airbase or three in Xinjiang before you could say 'East Turkestan' and the same goes for Tibet.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 23 2021 15:31 utc | 169

You know as well as I do as does anyone that has two braincells to rub together, that were the Chinese to follow your advice, there would be a US airbase or three in Xinjiang before you could say 'East Turkestan' and the same goes for Tibet.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 23 2021 15:31 utc | 169

You, and others here, are correct : I withdraw the comment entirely

Posted by: Triden | Jan 23 2021 15:51 utc | 170

@170 triden... i admire you for being able to change your mind!! kudos! most everyone has great difficulty with that, myself included...

Posted by: james | Jan 23 2021 17:50 utc | 171

Hmm, I wonder those so-called "defenders" of Muslims in China know the real cost of US behaviors:

Brown University study of multi-decade cost of wars:
https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/papers/summary

A few highlights:
-- more than 800,000 people (including 335,000 civilians) have died due to direct war violence
-- likely many times more have died indirectly
-- 21 millions are living as war refugees in grossly inadequate conditions
-- The US government is conducting counterterror activities in 80 countries
-- The cost of the Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Syria wars totals about $6.4 trillion, plus $8 trillion in the next 40 years for interests.
-- The human and economic costs of these wars will continue for decades with some costs, such as the financial costs of US veterans’ care, not peaking until mid-century.
-- Under US occupation, Iraq and Afghanistan continue to rank extremely low in political freedom. Women are excluded from political power and experience high rates of unemployment and war widowhood.

The reconstruction of these countries WILL cost trillions and multi-decades of time in future - provided peace and political stability can even be sustained. Furthermore, I am wondering who is going to pay the bills, US taxpayers?

Meanwhile, let's talk about the "horrible" conditions of Chinese Muslim - it is clearly more important they don't learn a new skill or a new view/way of life. /sarcastic

Posted by: d dan | Jan 23 2021 18:32 utc | 172

A pretty deep analysis of the document, AM. Well done!

For the curious, AM dismisses the following:
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-09/17/c_139373591.htm


Posted by: daffyDuct | Jan 23 2021 2:00 utc | 145

You are twisting the facts here. Shame shame.

The "deep analysis" [not] provided was a commentary on a post providing a state sponsored link (regardless of content) and then pulling Jim Jones out of the blue and making general ad-hominum comment about "[Public Relations] Kool Aid".

I don't appreciate people who pretend at being thoughtful wrapping informative links with ad-homs. YMMV, and I can live with that.

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 18:44 utc | 173

What awaits us?

Posted by: james | Jan 23 2021 2:39 utc | 148

A 'Butlerian Jihad' of sorts is what awaits us.

The hysterical efforts right now are to bridge a transition to the desired end state: your life fully surveilled and subject to immediate feedback of control.

This is our battle Cry: The Human Being will not be replaced by machines.

And let the comrades choke on that. The Mindful Universe is on our side.

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 18:56 utc | 174

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 23 2021 15:11 utc | 165

You're simply taking one element and ignoring the other.

IRA did not arise because of MI5. It is true that MI5 penetrated IRA (and per a cheeky but quite excellent Irish movie, "rent boys were used to penetrate MI5').

The Irish have legitimate grievances. MI5 directing/agitating/performing terror under the brand of IRA in no way diminishes the rightful demands of the Irish.

Irish, Gaelic, Catholic, and not "British", English, and Church of English Monarchy.

But speaking of the Irish, IRA, and the "troubles", I have had occasion because of this very thread to reconsider my very low opinion of the English.

Just imagine if the limeys had setup re-education camps for the Irish Catholics, using the precise language and reasons presented to us via links in this thread.

And lest you think the English are not capable of systemic evil, let me remind you that the English ran and operated the world's first "Concentration Camps" in the Boers War.

Now given that the English historically have not shied away from committing genocide, the question remains as to why did not the smart English (they are smart, can't be denied) think up the CCP's "Re-Education Camps" for the Irish deplorables.

The answer requires us to ask why did CCP find Falun Gong so objectionable. They can smear the Uighars as illiterate peasants who don't know anything about "science" and "modern world". But what the Falun Gong? Lot's of smart, educated, sophisticated Chinese in that indigenous Chinese 'spiritual movement'.

The answer, as I indicated in my very first post is "GOD". CCP, "the party", is supposed to be God/"Heaven" in China. The chairman is "Son of Heaven/God", and any spiritual movement that would shine an appropriate light of ridicule on those notions is 'enemy of the state' for CCP.

The English felt no need to apply systemic behavior and belief modification to Catholic Irish since "God" does not present a problem to the English establishment. The Irish are free to look to Vatican, mutter in Gaelic, and declare their undying hatred of all things English .. as long as they behave. Which they are doing now. And this is good enough for the English establishment.

But this formula would not work for CCP. They are simply being politic by not coming out and spelling the obvious per orthodox Marxist formalisms: There is no room for "divine" or "miracles" in a Materialist Universe. Certain temporary strategic considerations for CCP require making happy noises about "relgious freedom", but that is rank hypocrisy, if indeed they are Marxists and dedicated Rational Materialists.

--

As to the claims of "genocide" by Pompous Ass and company: this is a typical pattern when nominal enemy state A makes outrageous claims about nominal enemy state B. Citizens of B read the outrageous claims of A and immediately transit to a defensive mindset. It always begs the question: are these supposedly contending ruling elite really in conflict or are they mutually supporting one another?

Pompous Ass could simply have stated the facts:

There is no genocide in China, it is true. CCP is not killing the Uighars in a systemic fashion with an end goal of extermination.

There are no "concentration camps" in China, it is true. CCP is not creating camps to isolate and hold a demographic group (like what EU does to refugees).

What is CCP doing?

CCP is applying collective systemic behavior and belief modifications to Uighars. They claims these are "vocational studies" but a sensible person would ask why are they then called "re-"education camps.

And here we note that China is a signatory to the Human Rights Charter and freedom of belief is a declared Human Right. Therefore, CCP stands accused of crimes against humanity.


--

Were the ghouls that man the various desks in Foggy Bottom actually interested in deligitimizing and diminishing the moral authority of CCP for the Chinese, they would speak sensible, straight, non-hysterical, words, as above. Chinese are a sensible people with a highly developed sense of right and wrong. Their collective 'button' is their national pride, which is certainly understandable given a century of humiliation at the hand of foreign powers. If you want to unite the Chinese, simply issue Pompous Declarations making false claims about CCP. That is sure to rally the Chinese behind the CCP. But if you present a veritable moral delimma to the Chinese, they are fully capable of reaching the correct conclusions.

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 19:33 utc | 175

170 triden... i admire you for being able to change your mind!! kudos! most everyone has great difficulty with that, myself included...

Posted by: james | Jan 23 2021 17:50 utc | 171

----

Well, thank you James, I do have some standards, after all

There are many here that it would be fair to say of:

    "If it weren't for double-standards, they'd have no standards at all"

Posted by: Triden | Jan 23 2021 19:48 utc | 176

lol triden.. i like that saying!

Posted by: james | Jan 23 2021 20:13 utc | 177

@ 174 AM - i agree with you on this "The Human Being will not be replaced by machines." not sure what you mean by bulterian jihad... isn't that what isis was?? usa-ksa-uae and friends hired isis - started isis basically...as a mercenary group for hire, they are basically like a bulter.. maybe that is what you mean by it..

Posted by: james | Jan 23 2021 20:16 utc | 178

Bernhard, I haven't read the other comments, but came directly to put in my two bits worth. Might be someone has already told you that destruction of a way of life also comes under the term "genocide". In the late forties the then government of Eastern Turkestan fled and found shelter under Nehru in Kashmir. A few years ago one of them came back to Kashmir and gathered old friends together. I met him and he mentioned that the Chinese had come way outside their famous boundary wall. The forties were definitely less than two thousand years ago.

Suppose your people were still holding on to France after eighty years and the French had managed to multiply like rabbits but were now all speaking only German, and French language and culture had been extirpated and the French genetic pool seriously altered. That would count as genocide and I for one would deem it a fucking shame.

Posted by: sarz | Jan 23 2021 20:36 utc | 179

https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 20:38 utc | 180

@180 am - thanks... i never read his books or samuel bulters before that.. interesting!

Posted by: james | Jan 23 2021 20:44 utc | 181

@181 welcome! Dune is a masterpiece. Must read.

Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 21:00 utc | 182

@sarz | Jan 23 2021 20:36 utc | 179

By your logic, do you also consider the demographic and cultural changes that occurred in Alsace-Lorraine over the past 80 years a genocide?

Posted by: Lurk | Jan 23 2021 23:37 utc | 183

@American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 19:33 utc | 175

Why would the English elites have bothered to re-educate the Irish, when they could simply exterminate them by starvation (Irish Potato Famine)? Mostly the English simply did not care for the Irish and treated them as farm animals. At least the Chinese try to apply the same developmental standards across the entire population - even if some may not like these standards.

Falung Gong's brand of spirituality doesn't pass my smell test and is most probably scripted by western think-tanks specialized in regime change black ops. The CIA already had its slimy grubby claws all over the new age movement. For the Chinese edition they only had to rip out the sex, drugs and tie-dye garments and instead blend in some traditional chinese stereotypes. Selling good-sounding nitwittery to gullible wanna-believe types (most humans) is not exactly rocket science.

Cult management is an art that has been practiced and perfected for ages by elites. You in particular should take some time and study the origins of the muslim brotherhood, a true cesspit of vipers.

BTW, the Chinese don't seem to hate religions. What they don't want is foreign popes, lamas and mullahs to have a controlling influence over their people on their territory. There are plenty of churches, temples and mosques in China, it's just that these are Chinese churches, temples and mosques.

And in the case of Chinese mosques, a lot of these have female imams. I assume that it is the same with the churches and other temples and it really speaks very much in favor of the Chinese to allow plenty of room for personal spirituality while not allowing for it to be used as a vehicle for retarded anachronisms.

Posted by: Lurk | Jan 24 2021 0:10 utc | 184

@American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 21:00 utc | 182

Dune glorifies magic mushrooms. Frank Herbert admitted that the spice was modelled after psilocybin.

But as a muslim, that should not necessarily be a bad thing for you. After all, your prophet himself advocated the use of mind-altering substances. Here is a little quote from the hadith:

‘The Messenger of Allah, blessings of Allah on him and his family, said: “The wild rue (al-harmal) does not grow a tree, or a leaf, or a fruit, but that it has an angel in charge of it until it reaches the one who comes to it, or until it becomes debris. In its root and branches is a secret, and in its seed is healing from seventy-two illnesses. So treat yourselves with it and with frankincense.”’

The root, leaves and seeds of wild rue (peganum harmala) contain the very same substances as the Amazonian ayahuasca vine, which is, apart from also used as a medicine, specifically employed as a means of attaining an altered state that allows one to visit the spiritual realms in order to receive visions.

There is an interesting little bit of discussion from a non-confessional point of view to be found here. One of the participants in that discussion on some occasion mentioned to me that he had written to a respected cleric to request a fatwa on the use of these substances contained in wild rue and many acacias also typically found in the middle east. According to him, the cleric answered that the use of these substances is halal if the purpose of ingestion has the nature of a quest, but haram if the aim is pleasure.

Posted by: Lurk | Jan 24 2021 0:39 utc | 185

murikkan muslim [sic]
'Actually US practices "better approaches" afforded to the state by its more advanced and nuanced counter intelligence operations.

FBI famously infiltrates and takes control of all sorts of movements'
-------------------
to radicalise potential jihadists,
shepherd them into terror capers.
[fixed]

US 'domestic terrorism',
Made In USA.
' The Terror Factory: Inside the FBI's Manufactured War on Terrorism exposes how the FBI has, under the guise of engaging in counterterrorism since 9/11, built a network of more than 15,000 informants whose primary purpose is to infiltrate Muslim communities to create and facilitate phony terrorist plots so that the Bureau can then claim it is winning the war on terror.

An outgrowth of Trevor Aaronson's work as an investigative reporting fellow at the University of California, Berkeley, which culminated in an award-winning cover story in Mother Jones magazine, The Terror Factory reveals shocking information about the criminals, con men, and liars the FBI uses as paid informants--including the story of an accused murderer who has become one of the Bureau's most prolific terrorism snitches--as well as documenting the extreme methods the FBI uses to ensnare Muslims in terrorist plots, which are in reality conceived and financed by the FBI.

The book also offers unprecedented detail into how the FBI has transformed from a reactive law enforcement agency to a proactive counterterrorism organization that traps hapless individuals in manufactured terrorist plots in order to justify the $3 billion it spends every year fighting terrorism.'

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13591775-the-terror-factory

Posted by: denk | Jan 24 2021 1:07 utc | 186

American Muslim @ 175 says:

"If you want to unite the Chinese, simply issue Pompous Declarations making false claims about CCP. That is sure to rally the Chinese behind the CCP. But if you present a veritable moral delimma to the Chinese, they are fully capable of reaching the correct conclusions."

I see. So this is the new Biden's supposedly more "nuanced" way to attack CCP: present a moral "dilemma" to the Chinese people?

Good luck with that. Chinese people is able to see a "wolf in a sheep clothing" type argument from 1000 miles.

Posted by: d dan | Jan 24 2021 2:32 utc | 187

@ Posted by: American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 19:33 utc | 175

"But if you present a veritable moral delimma(sic) to the Chinese, they are fully capable of reaching the correct conclusions."

The correct conclusion is either you are a terrible troll, or you should check in to the nearest mental institution if you truly believe the Chinese would even remotely listen to this hogwash.

Posted by: J W | Jan 24 2021 6:29 utc | 188

@fyi | Jan 22 2021 22:43 utc | 126

Please name once such Re-education camp that has been "good".

Here is one in Xinjiang: Inside Xinjiang vocational centers. From the article:

they [the Uyghurs] opted to undergo the training programme voluntarily and they were being looked after well
(Emphasis mine.) There are dormitories on-site (a common practice all over China); the West says these are for "detention". However, a female trainee said
I am allowed to go home at the weekend to spend time with my children.
You might say that this is not a typical re-education camp, that more abusive ones exist in Xinjiang. If so, why did the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation say
Welcomes the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.

The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation is probably the largest Islamic organization in the world, with 57 member states and a combined population of 1.8 billion.

I think an organization of 1.8 billion people could easily send spies -- not only official delegations -- to determine whether China was lying. Yet they very pointedly commended China for its treatment of its muslims.

Given the above, together with the West's long history of false flags and its shameless lying, I think the overwhelming probability is that Western pants are on fire when they talk about Xinjiang.

Posted by: Cyril | Jan 24 2021 6:59 utc | 189

Posted by: james | Jan 23 2021 20:44 utc | 181

I read Dune and one other of Herbert's books, he's a shallow hack. Entertaining, but not all that entertaining.

Samuel Butler: I can recommend "The Way of All Flesh" as a novel of growing up British at it's most tortured. Not much else unless you have a historical interest.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jan 24 2021 7:36 utc | 190

Posted by: J W | Jan 24 2021 6:29 utc | 188 - "The correct conclusion is either you are a terrible troll, or you should check in to the nearest mental institution if you truly believe the Chinese would even remotely listen to this hogwash."

That self-titled american muslim is a shameless troll trying to divert new MOA readers into falling for the West's failing anti-China narrative.


Posted by: Cyril | Jan 24 2021 6:59 utc | 189 -- "Given the above, together with the West's long history of false flags and its shameless lying, I think the overwhelming probability is that Western pants are on fire when they talk about Xinjiang."

The West's pattern of behaviour points overwhelmingly to Liar Pants On Fire. Same is true for hapless trolls here to subvert MOA discussion.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Jan 24 2021 10:01 utc | 191

@sarz 179

Look at a map of the world and see where xinjiang is in relation to the rest of China. Now with that image fresh in your mind, take a look at the UK, US, Australia etc, and consider the ethnicities and languages of those.

Posted by: Migao | Jan 24 2021 10:13 utc | 192

I am certainly not an expert on this area but a quick wiki search comes up with the region as being a major gas producer for China.

that, explains a lot to me as to why the US is interested in the plight of its inhabitants and it sure aint about their human rights. The great game includes denying resources to your competitors.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jan 24 2021 11:04 utc | 193

Posted by: dan of steele | Jan 24 2021 11:04 utc | 193 -- "The great game includes denying resources to your competitors."

Yes, and stealing it for pennies on the dollar for yourself ( the indispensable exceptionally shiny toilet bowl on the hill, that is, not you personally, Dan ).

Posted by: kiwiklown | Jan 24 2021 12:18 utc | 194

Posted by: dan of steele | Jan 24 2021 11:04 utc | 193

"The great game includes denying resources to your competitors."

Yes, but we seem to have forgotten that the denial of resources can go both ways, never really having to confront the problem in the past. All these "advanced" technological solutions with all kinds of fancy metals and materials in them, and all done on the assumption that we would have as much as we need forever. "Rare earths" are a perfect example, not rare at all, but expensive in every way to extract and concentrate, and usable deposits are not common. We let China do it, made the big bucks. Now we have to re-develop the wbole industry or admit China can coerce us back because we let them. Tsk.

Most of this advanced stuff available today is the most ephemeral crap, won't last more than a few years, and not repairable. Yuck.

We are governed by dumb, ignorant, arrogant rich people, and they do a crappy job of it.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jan 24 2021 12:51 utc | 195

Indian trolls are always lurking, ready to pounce.
witness anton and sarz here.
So excited, like hyenas sensing blood.
Or so they thought. ;-)

Thats the trouble with Indians and their [[[five liars]]] cousins.
Exactly like their dear leaders, they spend their life 24x7 poking their nose into others latrines while shits are piling up at their own doorsteps.
No wonder both India and fukus have become veritable shit holes.

https://www.countercurrents.org/vltchek080215.htm


PS
Vltchek was likely bumped off by CIA/RAW,

Posted by: denk | Jan 24 2021 13:19 utc | 196

American Muslim @173: "...a state sponsored link..."

What is wrong with "state sponsored"? You are obviously state sponsored. The head-chopper training facilities that you love and whose influence the Chinese are fighting are state sponsored. Clearly you don't have any issues with state sponsorship per se and only sponsorship by states that the Outlaw Empire labels as "enemy".

By the way, could you let your boss Jen "Sad Sack" Psaki know she isn't aging well? Lying so much takes its toll.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 24 2021 16:01 utc | 197

Jay Henderson | Jan 23 2021 0:55 utc | 138

we need accurate, comprehensive and unbiased information.

Yes, so we do! But that applies all round; not just to the Chinese!

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 24 2021 18:15 utc | 198

American Muslim | Jan 23 2021 1:16 utc | 141


I have made it abundantly clear that equating actions of a beligerant state/empire on target nations is one thing, and the actions of a state on its own citizens another. Everybody and their mommy knows that AngloZionism sees Islam as an obstacle. Is this news?

There is a very specific and clear item on the table:

Is what Chinese Communist Party and the Chinese state doing to its own citizens, who happen to differ ethnically, religiously, and possibly ideologically from the Han Chinese, in line with expectations of a humanity that is progressing?

Are you so thick that you cannot see the connection between what the USA is doing with Uighur and other dissidents and what the Chinese government is doing with/to Muslims/Uighurs in Xinjiang? You talk as though the two subjects can be separated, which clearly they can't.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 24 2021 18:27 utc | 199

@170 triden... i admire you for being able to change your mind!! kudos! most everyone has great difficulty with that, myself included...

Posted by: james | Jan 23 2021 17:50 utc | 171


I would second that.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jan 24 2021 19:13 utc | 200

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