Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
January 12, 2021

Apartheid News

Sheldon Adelson, the casino oligarch who has financed far right causes as well as the political careers of Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahoo, has died. In 2013 Adelson had called for nuking Tehran (vid).

Good Riddance.

Unfortunately his money will continue to flow to the far right as his Israeli wife is the one who is now running the show.

In other news B'Tselem, the topmost Israeli human rights organization, finally describes both Israel and its control of the Palestinian territories as a single apartheid regime:

B’Tselem rejects the perception of Israel as a democracy (inside the Green Line) that simultaneously upholds a temporary military occupation (beyond it). B’Tselem reached the conclusion that the bar for defining the Israeli regime as an apartheid regime has been met after considering the accumulation of policies and laws that Israel devised to entrench its control over Palestinians.

Nothing really new there but it makes it official.

With B'Tselem finally speaking out it is much easier to refute those who falsely denounce the much justified condemnation of Zionism and Israel as anti-semitic.

This comes at a time when Israel is scheming to derail the incoming Biden administration's plan to return to the nuclear deal with Iran:

Israel will start by sending a stream of envoys on visits to Washington, the official said, requesting anonymity to discuss private deliberations. It’s stated publicly that it doesn’t want the U.S. to abandon sanctions on the Islamic Republic without a new deal, and that a tougher stance should be taken toward its nuclear project, ballistic missile program and regional proxy forces.

That strategy runs against the Biden team’s willingness to re-enter the deal, then negotiate an expansion of its terms. It’s conditioned on Iran’s returning to compliance with the accord, whose limits it breached after President Donald Trump pulled the U.S. out of the agreement in 2018.
...
Israel also has a higher-risk card up its sleeve: the potential to upend diplomatic efforts through covert operations against Iran.
...
Netanyahu has been open about his intention to thwart renewed U.S. participation. In a rare public split, he rebuked his envoy to Germany for supporting Berlin’s push to expand the deal.

“There should be no return to the Iran nuclear agreement of 2015 -- a deal which is flawed to its foundations,” Netanyahu said.

With Biden being an arch-Zionist and with a team of Zionist Jews leading the State Department the chances of a fast return to the deal can be regarded as slim.

Posted by b on January 12, 2021 at 18:07 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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) Sorry Pete but the evidence that Rus came from Scandanavia in particular Sweden is pretty much conclusive. Swedish vikings being very close to eastern europe ...
Posted by: Debsisdead | Jan 13 2021 7:42 utc | 85

I don't have any actual knowledge of the subject, but:

If by your assertion that the Rus came from the Vikings you intend to assert that the Slavs came from the Vikings (which appears to me to be implied by your assertion), then I personally find that wildly improbable. The physiognomy of the Slavs is completely different to that of the Vikings (or rather, Scandinavians, since I have never seen a Viking first hand); the culture and language are quite different. VK's assertion Posted by: vk | Jan 13 2021 11:46 utc | 93 that the Vikings only founded the Rus dynasty which was taken over by the Slavs is plausible.

The Vikings (or perhaps more likely a related tribe from the Baltic?) do have a possible relation to the Brahmins of India and origins of the Rig Veda. Not only does the Rig Veda have a core of battle stories and mentality that seems tantalisingly suggestive of Viking behaviour and culture, and the appearances of having originated in Norway-like terrain with freely flowing mountain rivers, but the Rig Veda even (I am told) describes phenomena that are only visible from the region including the Northern Lights. The linguistic connections with Scandinavia are phenomenal - and most of all with Lithuania whose language (I am told by multiple sources) is so close to Sanskrit as to generate a degree of mutual comprehensibility. Establishment scholarship says that the various branches of the Indo-European family of languages radiated outwards from the Steppes, but as far as the Brahmins are concerned I think there are questions to be answered as to the direction of travel. Connections of this theme to the topic of ancient floods/sea rise and consequent migrations?? No idea.

Posted by: BM | Jan 13 2021 14:08 utc | 101

Arthur Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe -The Khazar Empire And Its Heritage" is freely available for downlad in PDF and other formats at Archive.org

https://archive.org/details/pdfy-G9J73fb2QeB2Piiu

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 14:12 utc | 102

Mr. Hoyeru

You be wrong.

Posted by: fyi | Jan 13 2021 14:18 utc | 103

Mr. m

Jewish people are not Western.

In fact, in many ways, they remind one of others in the Middle East.

Posted by: fyi | Jan 13 2021 14:21 utc | 104

uncle tungsten | Jan 13 2021 10:21 utc | 88

I hadn't heard of the Burckle meteor before. However there is another Meorite/asteriod possiblity even earlier in the "Younger Dryass" about 12'800-110500 years ago. For a long time no impact crater was found. This is now estimated to be the Hiawatha crater in Iceland. 1'5 kilometre meteor made a 30+ Kilom diameter impact crater.)

This is mostly confirmed. However, there is another group that say that "the" meteor hit at a shallow angle, and it may have broken into parts before impact. ie 1.5 k'er was only one of a larger group.

There are many impact traces of (other) meteors in Canada which have ejecta mass all pointing in the same direction, so the group I am refering to thought that there was a major part that fell in the ocean between Russia and Canada. Coming in over Russia at first.

The interesting bit is that - as the angle was so "flat", a massive amount of dirt and air (possible water vapour as well) would have been thrown up many miles at a relatively small angle. Long and dirty. This would have caused semi-space freezing temperatures to be dragged downwards and westwards towards the point(s) of impact. This in turn caused the flash freezing seen in the Tundra (Mammouths etc froze within a few minutes in the maximum time frame. 4 minutes) It would have also wiped out the Clovis people etc.

Clearly the after effects would have had the same result as you mention for the Burckle. Tsunamis, Tectonic plaques moving or "just" masssive earthquakes etc. plus a possible rise in sea levels.

Now for the controversial part. The impact could have corresponded to the estimated time of the destruction of Atlantis (Canaris and Azores = somewhere around there) and a tale of the excape by some survivors towards Egypt. For that you will have to look up the 1) "Osereion" at Abydos (probably the oldest Temple/tomb in Egypt, near the Nile, might also be found as "Strabon's well") which is the Tomb of Osiris and 2) "Omm Sethy" (lived 1904 to 1972, born as Dorothy Eady). A strange person who spent most of her (known) life at the temple, She was Irish but claimed to be reincarnated as Bentreshyt (Harpe of Joy) the mistress of Sethy 1. (From a book by Anton Parks. La derniere marche des Dieux. in French but might be found in English too.) I was reading up on cases of reincarnation.

Usually the god(s) move in mysterious ways.

Posted by: Stonebird | Jan 13 2021 14:25 utc | 105

typo; ......110500..... too many zeros, should be 11'500

Posted by: Stonebird | Jan 13 2021 14:32 utc | 106

Posted by: fyi | Jan 13 2021 14:21 utc | 103


Jewish people are not Western.

What do you mean "Jewish People" ?

Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity.

Since when does a religion acquire the ability to transmute ones genetics upon reception?

If this is possible it is an amazing technology indeed!

Do expand at great length!


For extra credit, please explain what is "Western"!

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 14:35 utc | 107

Posted by: fyi | Jan 13 2021 14:21 utc | 103


Jewish people are not Western.

What do you mean "Jewish People" ?

Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity.

Since when does a religion acquire the ability to transmute ones genetics upon reception?

If this is possible it is an amazing technology indeed!

Do expand at great length!


For extra credit, please explain what is "Western"!

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 14:36 utc | 108

What do you mean "Jewish People" ?

Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 14:36 utc | 106

Unfortunately there are many people, jewish and non-jewish, who do believe that Judaism is an ethnicity.

Koestler makes the point in his book, linked above, that absent religion a Ukrainian Jew (for example) has absolutely nothing in common, culturally or otherwise, with an Ethiopian or Mizrahi jew.

"Jew" as an ethnic classification is something that is strongly pushed by judaic and non-judaic political and religious extremists, often in a cynical attempt to silence criticism of bith individual jews and of the Zionist state itself.

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 14:48 utc | 109

@ Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 14:12 utc | 101

Arthur Koestler is a known CIA asset and Cold Warrior, so I don't recommend using him as a reliable source.

Posted by: vk | Jan 13 2021 14:51 utc | 110

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 14:48 utc | 108


"Jew" as an ethnic classification is something that is strongly pushed by judaic and non-judaic political and religious extremists, often in a cynical attempt to silence criticism of bith individual jews and of the Zionist state itself.

This is my sense as well. Just as the term "anti-semitic" used to mean anti-Jewish is an absurd perversion of the term "semitic".

If, by some herculean feat of sophistry, it was proved that mere conversion to Judaism is sufficient to transmute ones gene sequence to one bearing a similarity to an extinct semitic tribe one would still have a devil of a time convincing me that these people have land rights to Palestine by way of inheritance:

https://chinesejews.com/kaifeng-jews

Perversely, this might provide an argument for the CPC making a claim to Palestinian land, at least one as strong as the Global Zionist movement has ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 14:55 utc | 111

@Stonebird | Jan 13 2021 14:25 utc | 104

I hadn't heard of the Burckle meteor before. However there is another Meorite/asteriod possiblity even earlier in the "Younger Dryass" about 12'800-110500 years ago. For a long time no impact crater was found. This is now estimated to be the Hiawatha crater in Iceland. 1'5 kilometre meteor made a 30+ Kilom diameter impact crater.)

the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burckle_Crater is real.

The newly discovered Hiawatha crater is not in Iceland, it is in Northern Greenland, and as far as I know it has not been dated.

However, The Younger Dryas was a 1200 year period of sudden extreme cold at the end of the last ice age ~12800 years ago, that is correct. In many people's opinion it was indeed caused by a small asteroid or comet impact that devastated the megafauna in North America west of the rocky mountains. There are many indications that the comet/asteroid hit the 3000m thick Laurentide Ice Sheet over northen US & canada. More specifically, it hit what is today Saginaw Bay in present day Michigan, USA. It is possible to say this because hitting the ice it sent huge ice boulders into ballistic orbits in all directions. Some landed on soft soil and you can find hundreds of thousands of
"Carolina Bays" all over the US east coast. They are shallow elliptical depressions with consistent eccentricities and long axis orientations. You also have similar but rotated elliptical features in the "Nebraska rain water basins". Both features are secondary impact craters of ice huge boulders. The ellipse orientations can be used to compute the impact origin (saginaw bay) and the eccentricities reflect the impact angles. From the impact angles you can compute the flight times (~7-9 minutes) which are mostly above the atmosphere.

The impact sent ice crystals into earth orbit so the temperature plummeted -15C and it took ~1200 years before it all had vaporized and the temperatures returned to "normal".

See Antonio Zamora
Mechanism for the creation of the Carolina Bays

Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 13 2021 14:58 utc | 112

Posted by: vk | Jan 13 2021 14:51 utc | 109


Arthur Koestler is a known CIA asset and Cold Warrior, so I don't recommend using him as a reliable source.

Does this invalidate the argument though:


Koestler makes the point in his book, linked above, that absent religion a Ukrainian Jew (for example) has absolutely nothing in common, culturally or otherwise, with an Ethiopian or Mizrahi jew.

He is bang on to this extent at least.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 14:59 utc | 113

fyi has strange, strange ideas about what "Western" is. It follows naturally that Israelis seem as foreign as Iranians or Yemenis or Egyptians. The notion that Russians are not Westerners only makes sense for bigots who don't grant Orthodoxy status as an equal Christian denomination.

As to Judaism being a religion rather than an ethnicity, in the US there are numerous atheist Jews who are culturally American, which means default Christianity is a tremendous influence in their lives, from trivia like saying Merry Christmas to the Christian sexual morals they encounter every day of their lives. (Many Hasidic Jews live in semi-separated communities, local pluralities so their cultural experience is different.) Yet many of them insist they are "cultural" Jews, despite living in an overwhelmingly Christian culture. It is not clear what it means for them to claim to be "cultural" Jews. What they really mean, despite themselves, is that they were born Jewish. Then while growing up they realized they weren't the Christian default. Discovering you're not like the majority no doubt shapes you're life but it's not a culture in the ordinary sense of the term. The thing is, being born Jewish, rather than living a Jewish way of life seems far more like an ethnicity than a religion as usually understood. In general, you can substitute "way of life" for "culture." If "way of life" doesn't make sense, then it is likely the word "culture" is being misused or misunderstood.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Jan 13 2021 15:02 utc | 114

Unlike vk, I recommend people read the book for themselves and make decisions regarding its veracity once they have actually read the book.

Almost as soon as his death was announced there was a strong pro-zionist campaign to attempt to discredit him, based on rumours of completely unverifiable sexual allegations.

That they waited until his death when he would of course be completely unable to defend himself would be enough of a signal to any intelligent individual that his thesis, as presented in the book, is worth investigating further.

That a slippery individual such as vk is so prompt to jump in with an attempt to disuade people from reading the book should be all the indication one needs, that it is well worth reading

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 15:05 utc | 115

Unlike vk, I recommend people read the book for themselves and make decisions regarding its veracity once they have actually read the book.
Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 15:05 utc | 114


Almost as soon as his death was announced there was a strong pro-zionist campaign to attempt to discredit him, based on rumours of completely unverifiable sexual allegations.
.
.
.
That a slippery individual such as vk is so prompt to jump in with an attempt to disuade people from reading the book should be all the indication one needs, that it is well worth reading

Fortunately I am automatically suspicious of anyone who tells me I should avoid using particular sources. Truth is a highly personal thing.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 15:16 utc | 116

@ Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 14:59 utc | 112

That the Jews are not an ethnicity is obvious. The Abraham story is clearly a legend.

Posted by: vk | Jan 13 2021 15:17 utc | 117

Two other books on the origins and misuse of terms like "Jewish People" and "Land of Isreal" are the very aptly named :

    "The Invention of the Jewish People", London, Verso, 2009 (ISBN 978-1844674220)

    And

    "The Invention of the Land of Israel", London, Verso, 2012 (ISBN 978-1844679461)

by Isreali author Professor Schlomo Sand.

I have no idea, nor interest in, whether or not they meet with vk's approval, but I can tell you that they are both interesting and informative, containing much well-researched historical information which most readers, jewish or non-jewish, are very unlikely to have been aware of prior to reading.

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 15:18 utc | 118

That the Jews are not an ethnicity is obvious.

Posted by: vk | Jan 13 2021 15:17 utc | 116
---

And yet you immediately sought to dissuade people from reading, and instead attempted to discredit the author of, a book which attempts to dispell the notion that "jewish" is an ethnicity, despite obviously not having read the book yourself.

Very strange behaviour indeed

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 15:22 utc | 119

Koestler is a very interesting writer. While it is true that political issues surround him like a number of other authors from that period (Ahrendt, Orwell just to name a couple) one ought not ignore their other considerable works. I don't care about the khazars, but I would encourage a reader who runs into something by Koestler to give it a try.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jan 13 2021 15:23 utc | 120

As so often is the case with anticommunists, Koestler is a crank. In addition to his ludicrous but lucrative anticommunism, Koestler was a crank in science (Roots of Coincidence was mummery about "syncrhonicity') evolution (The Case of the Midwife Toad,) consciousness (The Ghost in the Machine,) The Act of Creation may not be as ridiculous as most of his work. The Sleepwalkers is actually highly rated but this is probably a hangover from his prestige as an anticommunist. It can be viewed as either a detailed history of how scientists are still people or it can be viewed as a covert defense of irrationalism. (I think it should be viewed as an example of how moralism makes for bad historical judgments, but that's me.)

Posted by: steven t johnson | Jan 13 2021 15:25 utc | 121

Jan 13 2021 14:58 utc | 111

The newly discovered Hiawatha crater is not in Iceland, it is in Northern Greenland, and as far as I know it has not been dated. Yup, you are right. That is what comes of writing comments between going outside to shovel snow before it freezes. Numbskull me !

The impact sent ice crystals into earth orbit so the temperature plummeted -15C and it took ~1200 years before it all had vaporized and the temperatures returned to "normal".
Those temperatures would be the ones calculated "Downstream" from the impact? All your references are Canada/US. The vacuum created by the enormous impact could also have caused cold, at a lot lower temperature than simply -15°c to be drawn in over Russia - Siberia. I doubt that minus -15° would have caused so great an immediate effect on civilisations and animals. At least that is how the argument goes. That temperatures many orders of magnitude lower would have been necessary to flash freeze tons of hot meat. Particularly important is the speed at which they were frozen.

I am not sure I now have the courage to back outside and shovel snow - what if it fell on ME?

Posted by: Stonebird | Jan 13 2021 15:27 utc | 122

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 15:18 utc | 117

I've had those two on my list for years and years ... better get to reading them before they're purged from every internet and physical library.

Here's the Crux for me:

The notion that there's some kind of hereditary genetic link between the original Hebrews belonging to the Kingdom of Israel (if such a thing ever existed) and the religious-cultural group called broadly called "Jews" today, conferred via religious association AND the use of this association to justify a hereditary title deed to the area generally referred to as Palestine.

Lewis Carrol could not have constructed a more mind-bending and cognitive dissonance inducing tale at the height of his talents.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 15:28 utc | 123

oops again; my@121 post is for Norwegian | Jan 13 2021 14:58 utc | 111

Posted by: Stonebird | Jan 13 2021 15:30 utc | 124

Posted by: steven t johnson | Jan 13 2021 15:25 utc | 120

Amusing that both vk and bedwetter-in-Chief "Flog'em & Hang'em" j johnson are so eager to discredit Koestler, the author of a book neither have read, in a transparetly obvious attempt to dissuade people from reading the book.

If I hadn't already read it that alone would be enough to persuade me to immediately download it and start reading

"The Thirteenth Tribe -The Khazar Empire And Its Heritage" is freely available for downlad in PDF and other formats at Archive.org

https://archive.org/details/pdfy-G9J73fb2QeB2Piiu

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 15:36 utc | 125

@ Steven

"The thing is, being born Jewish, rather than living a Jewish way of life seems far more like an ethnicity than a religion as usually understood."

Hmmm. What does it mean "being born Jewish"? Sounds like utter nonsense. Everyone is born the same.

Do you mean that your parents tell you to think of yourself as "Jewish"? But without the culture -- without being integrated, assimilated into the culture -- that's ... meaningless.

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Jan 13 2021 15:38 utc | 126

Posted by: vk | Jan 13 2021 15:17 utc | 116


That the Jews are not an ethnicity is obvious. The Abraham story is clearly a legend.

We can agree on that. Abraham,like Atrahasis (Noah), Moses (Sargon) are very likely borrowed from earlier Sumerian, Akkadian and Babylonian legends.

The extent to which this idea has been thoroughly propagated to Christian communities of all denominations is breath-taking though.
In my experience modern Christianity almost requires a belief that the modern Jewish community are the very same Hebrews who destroyed the Canaanites millennia ago.

Deviation or disputation of this view in the company of any Charismatic church members is likely to end with having "hands laid upon you" with great and holy fervor.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 15:41 utc | 127

...as for "Arthur Koestler is a known CIA asset", most of everyone among the intellectuals was those days, one way or another. George Orwell was one too.

See
The Cultural Cold War: The CIA and the World of Arts and Letters, by Frances Stonor Saunders

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Jan 13 2021 15:43 utc | 128

@ Steven

"The thing is, being born Jewish, rather than living a Jewish way of life seems far more like an ethnicity than a religion as usually understood."

Hmmm. What does it mean "being born Jewish"? Sounds like utter nonsense. Everyone is born the same.

Do you mean that your parents tell you to think of yourself as "Jewish"? But without the culture -- without being integrated, assimilated into the culture -- that's ... meaningless.

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Jan 13 2021 15:38 utc | 125

---

Hang'em's statement which you quoted is an almost exact replica of the sort of ridiculous illogical and bizarre "reasoning" one so often hears from pro-zionists and racist Jewish racial-supremacists, when they are presented with the irrationality of their racist beliefs

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 15:46 utc | 129

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Jan 13 2021 15:43 utc | 127

While we're on the topic, I've recently been informed that the other Mao (Zedong) was also a CIA asset.

Quite the employer of choice back in the day, that CIA, kind of like KPMG and Accenture.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 15:47 utc | 130

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Jan 13 2021 15:38 utc | 125


Do you mean that your parents tell you to think of yourself as "Jewish"? But without the culture -- without being integrated, assimilated into the culture -- that's ... meaningless.

Thanks for articulating that, Mao, for a few minutes I wasn't able to connect brain to mouth (fingers) while trying to figure out what that was ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 15:51 utc | 131

Does this invalidate the argument though:

    "Koestler makes the point in his book, linked above, that absent religion a Ukrainian Jew (for example) has absolutely nothing in common, culturally or otherwise, with an Ethiopian or Mizrahi jew."

He is bang on to this extent at least.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 14:59 utc | 112


-------------------------------

Shlomo Sand also makes that point, quite persuasively imho, in his "Invention of the Jewish people" book.

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 15:54 utc | 132

Perversely, this might provide an argument for the CPC making a claim to Palestinian land, at least one as strong as the Global Zionist movement has ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 14:55 utc | 110


____________


A very amusing development, were it ever to occur. The logic of it would be every bit as sound as that applied by the racist pro-zionist movement.

As a counter they would unfortunately struggle to gain traction using their usual method of simply screaming "anti semite" as long and as loud as possible.

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 16:02 utc | 133

"While we're on the topic, I've recently been informed that the other Mao (Zedong) was also a CIA asset."

Meh. CIA is a paper tiger.

[Joking, joking. I have the greatest respect for our Brave Intelligence Community]

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Jan 13 2021 16:04 utc | 134

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 16:02 utc | 132


As a counter they would unfortunately struggle to gain traction using their usual method of simply screaming "anti semite" as long and as loud as possible.

You have no idea how effective screaming "anti semite" is! I've shot to the front of many a bank queue by doing just that - and I'm not even Jewish!


Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 16:05 utc | 135

@ Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 15:47 utc | 129

There was marginal cooperation between the USG and the Communists during WWII against Japan when it became clear the Nationalists weren't up to the task (for internal and external factors). But the Communists - Mao included - never were CIA assets.

Indeed, the personnel who cooperated with the Communists during WWII were the first victims of McCarthyism. Maybe that's where the "Mao was a CIA asset" legend comes from.

--//--

@ Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 15:41 utc | 126

We call that process "ethnogenesis" in History. It's when a tribe or confederation of tribes combine a common original myth and arbitrarily decides that they are a new ethnicity. This was probably what happened to the Germanic tribes, and we can even speculate that newer tribes took the name of older, extinct tribes for PR reasons (e.g. to claim the ancestry of a notable German chieftain) or political reasons (e.g. to renegotiate old deals with the Roman Empire).

Germany, obviously, is simply the most spectacular and illustrative case of ethnogenesis, but it probably was the same with all the ethnicities we know of (e.g. the Romans, claiming they are the sons of Aeneas; Native-Americans claiming to be all from a mysterious group from somewhere in Northwestern North America).

Posted by: vk | Jan 13 2021 16:06 utc | 136

Posted by: vk | Jan 13 2021 16:06 utc | 135


Indeed, the personnel who cooperated with the Communists during WWII were the first victims of McCarthyism. Maybe that's where the "Mao was a CIA asset" legend comes from.

The other variant of this is the Mao was a skull-and-bonesman, by virtue of the story that he worked for a time as an editor at the Chinese "campus" of Yale and since Yale was somehow a skull and bones outfit, the conclusion is drawn that he was a member too. Conspiraloons (real consipiraloons, not the level-headed type on MoA) draw some amazing story arcs like this:

http://www.mygen.com/users/ufo/Mao_was_a_Yale_Man.html



We call that process "ethnogenesis" in History. ... Germany, obviously, is simply the most spectacular and illustrative case of ethnogenesis, but it probably was the same with all the ethnicities we know of (e.g. the Romans, claiming they are the sons of Aeneas; Native-Americans claiming to be all from a mysterious group from somewhere in Northwestern North America).


The Thai seem to be a very recent example of this. The Han a more ancient one.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 16:21 utc | 137

Nice to see vk return return so promptly with his usual attempt at "I am the world's foremost expert on literally every subject under the sun, including but not limited to subjects I obviously know little about, and books I obviously have not yet read"

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 16:21 utc | 138

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 16:21 utc | 137

You could get him to do your homework ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 16:24 utc | 139

Mr. Arch Bungle

Please conduct your own research.

Posted by: fyi | Jan 13 2021 16:25 utc | 140

Posted by: fyi | Jan 13 2021 16:25 utc | 139


Please conduct your own research.

No need. vk, Triden and others have been very forthcoming.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 16:27 utc | 141

Rape allegations against Koestler did not surface until 15 years after his death. They were no instant response to his theories on Khazars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jill_Craigie
My guess is that if they had surfaced earlier they would have been dismissed as Communist misinformation aimed at Koestler, who was a noted anti-Communist from the 1950s onward. By the late 1990s this was less credible as an explanation. Cesarani's biography mentions a postcard from a woman among Koestler's papers that is vituperative towards him and reads like an accusation that he date-raped her.

Posted by: Waldorf | Jan 13 2021 16:51 utc | 142

Debsisdead 85

I look mostly at language groups as to the origins of peoples and I think these language groups go back to before the time of the last great climate change. Russian is part of the Slavic language group whereas Swedish is part of the Scandinavian language group.
Very few historian seem to take into account the great disruptions that would have occurred during and immediately after the last great climate change.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2021 16:53 utc | 143

You could get him to do your homework ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 16:24 utc | 138

Only if I wanted it to be wrong

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 17:04 utc | 144

You could get him to do your homework ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 16:24 utc | 138

Only if I wanted it to be wrong

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 17:04 utc | 145

Studies of junk DNA, the random bases that are not purified by natural selection, are very useful for tracing descent, because they have no significant effects on phenotype, the actual bodies that grow according to the possibilities afforded by their environment. These descent groups have nothing to do with any version of "race" that attribute specific hereditary traits to a group, precisely because these variants DNA bases are not affected by natural selection, which can only work on phenotypes, the actual organisms. People bearing specifically Jewish names, mostly the variants of Levy and Cohen (derived from Jewish religious functionaries, whose roles, like Hindu Brahmins, were to some degree hereditary) have had their genomes catalogued. The evidence is that this part of "Jewish" populations is traceable to the Middle East. This sort of thing is being used to reconstruct migrations. This is not a random sampling so concluding "Jews" as a whole are descendants of the ancient Hebrews is a failure of understanding.

The point of observing that American atheist Jews, despite what they say about being "cultural" Jews when the American culture is not Jewish, is this: No matter, what they say, some Jews do in fact define Jews as an ethnic group, a status given by birth. That comment was directed specifically against the claim that Judaism was a religion, not an ethnicity. Declaring oneself a member of a group by virtue of birth is defining oneself by ethnicity, not religion. Mao Cheng Ji and Triden somehow misread this as an approving comment. Plain English never survives a malicious reading. That may be due to believing that there is such a thing as actual, DNA-given (which means God-given in most mouths,) truly different flesh.

Despite outliers like Mbuti/"Pygmies" or lactose tolerant peoples or those adapted to high altitudes---which are technically better described as ecotypes rather than races---essentially humanity is panmictic, essentially one race. Every interesting difference found in social life of population sub-groups or demes, is due to social causes. Every use of race that goes beyond a synonym for ecotype or descent group is scientifically meaningless. This means morally meaningless if you believe science informs morals (fascists and fascist sympathizers like political conservatives don't.) In other languages, "race" means something like "family heritage," both of the flesh and cultural, such as religion. That's why the UN resolution condemning Zionism as racism was not an outrage.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Jan 13 2021 17:12 utc | 146

It is likely the interest in Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe is due to people who worship DNA as God's commandments written in the flesh and want "proof" that Israelis are not really God's chosen people, but pretenders. Zionism is a kind of joint-stock venture in colonialism with a religious affiliation, like a hospital that was founded originally by the Roman Catholic Church, then privatized. The issue is the land they steal, not the truth or falsity of their pedigree. God's Chosen People or not, there is no hereditary claim to Palestine apart from being born and raised there. Religious dogma is not a legitimate part of public government.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Jan 13 2021 17:18 utc | 147

There are two official criteria for being Jewish, which are partly overlapping.

According to the Jewish religious law (Halakha) a Jew is somebody with a Jewish mother.

According to the Israeli immigration law ("Law of Return") somebody is entitled to instant Israeli citizenship who has at least one Jewish grandparent. The Law of Return is modeled after the Nuremberg race law.

So a person with Jewish parents who is atheist by religion will be considered a Jew by other Jews and very often self-identifies as Jew. A religious Jew does consider such a person a bad Jew, since he/she doesn't follow the religious commandment of Judaism, but still a Jew.

Posted by: m | Jan 13 2021 17:23 utc | 148

@ Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 16:21 utc | 137

Actually, most of the "theories" most commenters post here were already debunked/investigated by scholars at least some decades ago. Most of the things I post here are undergraduate level. They're not some cryptic truth hidden from the masses - you just need to know where to find them (or go to History college).

The problem is that most reliable sources of History are in books and not on the internet, and we know very few people here actually read anything substantial.

Posted by: vk | Jan 13 2021 17:32 utc | 149

Posted by: m | Jan 13 2021 17:23 utc | 147



According to the Jewish religious law (Halakha) a Jew is somebody with a Jewish mother.

According to the Israeli immigration law ("Law of Return") somebody is entitled to instant Israeli citizenship who has at least one Jewish grandparent.

Sounds somewhat recursive to me.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 17:33 utc | 150

Not at all surprising that someone as duplicitous as "Flog'em" j johnson would seek to dissuade anyone interested in reading the book in question, by implying that to do so would be proof of bonafide racist nazi intention.

Deconsructing ethnicity-based racial-supremacist arguments and reliance on the "chosen people" trope to excuse their land stealing, so favoured by pro-zionist political and religious extremists, is naturally akin to finding evidence of "the mark of Satan", in Witchfinder j johnson's, self-declared morally-superior and sadly sanctimonious, opinion

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 17:36 utc | 151

@Stonebird | Jan 13 2021 15:27 utc | 121

Those temperatures would be the ones calculated "Downstream" from the impact? All your references are Canada/US.

No, the Younger Dryas cooling was a sudden global cooling, and it lasted 1200 years. Short term local effects were much more extreme, but temperature was probably not the main issue. Imagine kilometer-size ice boulders raining all over the US east of the rockies (I said west of the rockies in the last post but that was a typo). Everything was shattered as the fossil records show.

Personally, I also suspect that similar mega-ice boulders rained also into the Atlantic, causing mega-tsunamis in Europe and South America, possibly all around the world.

If you want to be a little speculative, look up all the megalithic structures you can find around the world, notably in Peru/Bolivia showing very andvanced structures crushed by a mega flood (Puma Punku). You could possibly make a similar case for the damage to the pyramids at Giza, Egypt. Also the 1200 ton rectangular "stone of the pregnant woman" in Baalbek, Lebanon is extremely strange. There are lots of other places that show signs of being subject to a cataclysm.

The vacuum created by the enormous impact could also have caused cold, at a lot lower temperature than simply -15°c to be drawn in over Russia - Siberia.

I don't think there is any claim that the Michigan impact caused flash freezing of mammoths in Siberia. I think that is probably a different event, not sure if it even happened at the same time. But I have seen the question about how to deep freeze a large mammoth in seconds, which really happened at some stage. They have been found with food in their mouth, and the meat was edible thousands of years after. You probably need a very shallow angle comet sweeping away the atmosphere and hypersonic ice cold winds to fill the void after to instantly dry freeze a mammoth.
I doubt that minus -15° would have caused so great an immediate effect on civilisations and animals. At least that is how the argument goes.

Instant and prologed effects are two different things. If you survived somewhere in the US following the impact in Michigan you would die soon after anyway because there would be no food. There is no controversy that the north american megafauna dissapeared virtually at an instant, the only controversy is how it happened. The mainstream theory is it happened because a few hunter gatherers arrived over the Behring land bridge and proceded to kill all the animals on the continent, but I don't buy that...
That temperatures many orders of magnitude lower would have been necessary to flash freeze tons of hot meat. Particularly important is the speed at which they were frozen.
Indeed, for Siberia this is a real problem to solve, because it happened. But probably not in America.
I am not sure I now have the courage to back outside and shovel snow - what if it fell on ME?
Then your worries would be gone. It would be worse for you if it fell on a different continent and average temperatures fell 15C, as you would have time to consider your fate.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 13 2021 17:42 utc | 152

The problem is that most reliable sources of History are in books and not on the internet, and we know very few people here actually read anything substantial.

Posted by: vk | Jan 13 2021 17:32 utc | 148


------

An unwittingly and hilariously ironic statement given that you immediately attempted to dissuade people from reading the book in question despite it being obvious that you yourself have not read it

My advice would be to not pontificate on something you have no knowledge of, and instead read a book before pretending to be expert on its subject matter

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 17:42 utc | 153

Doubly ironic given that this is not the first time you have been exposed while pretending to to be an expert on a book you have not read

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 17:44 utc | 154

@ Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 17:42 utc | 152

I said most of the reliable sources in History are in book form - not that every book is a reliable source just because it is in book form.

I've already warned about using Koestler as a scientifically relevant source. The CIA coopted a lot of failed writers and second/third-rate intellectuals to their asset collection (for obvious reasons, as successful people don't need to sell themselves to the CIA in order to have a reliable career, specially during the High Cold War era USA), so you have to take them all with a grain of salt.

Posted by: vk | Jan 13 2021 17:48 utc | 155

@Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2021 16:53 utc | 142

I look mostly at language groups as to the origins of peoples and I think these language groups go back to before the time of the last great climate change. Russian is part of the Slavic language group whereas Swedish is part of the Scandinavian language group.
Very few historian seem to take into account the great disruptions that would have occurred during and immediately after the last great climate change.

In Norway, we speak a modified version of Danish after the plague eliminated everybody of importance, and old Norse was replaced by Danish. Old Norse survived on Iceland. However, our neighbours the Finns speak a language that is not related to Scandinavian at all. By chance, I once visited in South Korea and happened to meet someone claiming that Korean was related to Finnish and Hungarian...

Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 13 2021 17:57 utc | 156

I said most of the reliable sources in History are in book form - not that every book is a reliable source just because it is in book form.


----

Since you never read the book I doubt anyone with any brains is interested in your pretend-expert opinion on it

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 17:58 utc | 157

"...want "proof" that Israelis are not really God's chosen people"

Well, yes, and that was exactly Koestler's point, the purpose of writing this book, as I remember (I read it many, many years ago).

...and, as I remember, there was another claim there that I found convincing: that dispersed ethnic groups over time (centuries) become more and more genetically similar to the host population. Even when these groups practice a cultural isolation, inevitably there are still cross-ethnic sexual affairs, rapes, adoptions, conversions, and what-not. And they add up.

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Jan 13 2021 18:05 utc | 158

Debsisdead 85

I look mostly at language groups as to the origins of peoples and I think these language groups go back to before the time of the last great climate change. Russian is part of the Slavic language group whereas Swedish is part of the Scandinavian language group.
Very few historian seem to take into account the great disruptions that would have occurred during and immediately after the last great climate change.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2021 16:53 utc | 142

-----

In his book Koestler addresses the curious nature of Yiddish.

He states that though many of the words are clearly of Germanic origin, the grammatic structure is clearly Slavic.

He maintains that the underlying structure is clear evidence for Slavic origin (i.e: Khazarian as oppossed to Middle Eastern/Semetic) of the people who spoke the language

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 18:06 utc | 159

Thanks to all who have put up their comments and thoughts on pre history (before written history). Before the advent of writing, there is only the oral histories to go on. A many of these attribute great things that were beyond the understanding to supernatural beings make the oral histories difficult to understand. To put a place and particularly a date is difficult if not impossible. Writing appears to have kicked off in Mesopotamia, then spreading around the shores of the Mediterranean with many of the oral histories then put down in writing. Much of Europe has had written language for 1000 years or less, indigenous peoples in many parts of the world never developing a written language. China developed writing quite early and perhaps independent of the middle east though the old silk roads connected china to the mid east region from very early times.

The Hebrew tribe were nomadic for much of their early existence, displaced I think by sea level rise rather than the cataclysmic event of a meteor strike and associated tsunami ect. Judging by the amount of shit and devastation brought onto the world by those whose superstitions all trace back to the ancient superstitions of this tribe, a massive tsunami wiping all before it including Noah would have been a great thing for mankind in general.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2021 18:08 utc | 160

@149 Arch Bungle
The point is that you have a group of people who define themselves by their common ancestry (alleged or real).

Posted by: m | Jan 13 2021 18:16 utc | 161

@149 Arch Bungle
The point is that you have a group of people who define themselves by their common ancestry (alleged or real), not
by common believes.

Posted by: m | Jan 13 2021 18:17 utc | 162

Norwegian 155
I had read that Finnish was a separate language group and also in the baltics, Estonia, Latvia ect a another or other language group.
English is a Germanic language, and I think this originates from before the last great sea level rise when Germanic peoples occupied territory perhaps along coastal Europe which included what is called dogger bank with their neighbors being the Celtic peoples.

Triden 158 Could these have been words that have been picked up of the millennia? The hebrew tribe were nomadic wanderers and then scattered to many parts of the world.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2021 18:36 utc | 163

Also see Shlomo Sand's works on the Khazaria/ethnic roots stuff.

He is an Israeli academic who wrote "The Invention of the Jewish People" among many other works.

https://g.co/kgs/KFLxGP

Posted by: gm | Jan 13 2021 18:42 utc | 164

Norwegian #151

Thank you for the post. The Puma Punku ruins are intriguing as to their burial under mud. I speculate that there may have been a mud slide or wave from the mountains and higher lands. Rather than a tsunami from Lake Titicaca. I understand there is a submerged ruin on the lake bed that seems to indicate a very different land formation than what we have today.

On the subject of snap freezing, that adolescent mammoth discovered in Siberia was a wealth of information. The freeze blast must have been extraordinary to not only snap freeze such a mass of meat but to have broken its hip bones simultaneously.

On Burckle meteor, fragments also landed south West of Alice Springs in central Australia. I assume the tsunami from the primary impact would have devastated Yemen, and many places in North Africa. The vast moistur cloud from the impact would have created vast rainclouds hence more flood stories would evolve.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 13 2021 18:50 utc | 165

I just want to chime in to agree with Steven Johnson that race is largely a fiction in humans, we don't have a lot of diversity, and most of it shows up in a few local adaptations genetically, the important differences are cultural, and most of that cultural diversity encodes generations of knowledge that we ought to study and preserve. Diversity improves resilience.

And I want to agree with Mao Cheng Ji that a major reason for that is that humans tend to screw anything that moves when they get in the mood, they may prattle on about purity and stuff but in practice they do nothing of the sort. They discipline their chattels, but not themselves.

The era of globalization has led to a great deal of hybridization in humans too, I expect great things of those people.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jan 13 2021 19:00 utc | 166

Triden 158 Could these have been words that have been picked up of the millennia? The hebrew tribe were nomadic wanderers and then scattered to many parts of the world.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2021 18:36 utc | 162

----

Koestler went to some lenght to point out that Ashkenazim were of Slavic/Khazar origin who moved west and always quite separate from Sephardic jews Middle Eastern and Mediterranean origin.


Sand agrees and adds that Sephardic jews were merchants who established a trading network throughout the Mediterranean, but were never "scattered". He maintains that there was no "Exodus", no "scattering" event, and any referral to such events is simply false. They became merchant wanderers purely by virtue of their geographic origin and proxity to east/west trade routes, and by personal choice .

Sand also maintains that any possible "jewish" kingdom that might have existed was tiny, and points out that there really is very little evidence to even support any claim that they might have had any resonable grounds for proclaiming "ownership" of Jerusalem itself, based on some alleged prior "ownership" in the distant past

For example he presented some evidence casting serious doubt on any claim that the so-called "Wailing Wall" in Jerusalem is a remnant of the "original" Jewish Temple of Jerusalem. He states that belief is falsified by an almost complete lack of archeological evidence to support it, pointing to the discovery of roman coins under its base.

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 19:16 utc | 167

And I want to agree with Mao Cheng Ji that a major reason for that is that humans tend to screw anything that moves when they get in the mood, they may prattle on about purity and stuff but in practice they do nothing of the sort. They discipline their chattels, but not themselves.


Posted by: Bemildred | Jan 13 2021 19:00 utc | 165


----------

As far as I know the female contribution to Ashkenazim dna is almost exclusively of Eastern European/Slavic origin negating any claim to Levant origin for the Ashkenazim as a whole

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 19:22 utc | 168

uncle tungsten 164 & Norwegian

Aus megafauna also died off in that time frame, approx 10,000 years ago. That I think was due to desertification brought about by climate change.
Sahara also dried out though it was several millennia after the last great climate change that it become uninhabitable.
Some time back I read a page on somebody studying the rock paintings in the Kimberlys. I think it was the bradshaw paintings. Very old paintings know one knows who put them there. I some place the old paintings were overlapped by newer ones which the locals say are theirs. The where able to date the change by carbon dating a wasp nest that on top of the old paintings but had paint from the newer painting on it. The wasp net dated to 11000 years ago and the researcher thought that coastal people being pushed back due had pushed out the people whose paintings show had been there for perhaps tens of thousands of years.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2021 19:26 utc | 169

Norwegian @ 155, Peter AU 1 @ 162:

In the early to mid-20th century there were linguists who believed that the Uralic languages (Finnic: Finnish, Estonian, Mordvin, Mari, Udmurt, Komi; Ugric: Hungarian, Khanty, Mansi; and Samoyed languages) and the Altaic languages (Turkic, Mongolic and Tungusic which included Manchu) were related. This belief was based on similarities observed between the families: grammatical structure, use of vowel harmony in some languages, some vocabulary in common. This belief is now no longer common among linguists. Many language families have similar grammatical structures as Uralic has. There is even head-scratching now as to whether the Altaic languages really are a family and not three families: any features all three have in common might be the result of borrowing as they have existed in close proximity for centuries. Korean and Japanese have similar grammatical structures as the supposed Altaic languages do but that in itself is not a reason to suppose that they all come from a common origin.

As for the spread of Germanic languages, the dialects thar became English were brought to the British isles by the Angles and Jutes from Denmark, the Saxons from northern Germany and the Frisians from the Frisian islands on the German-Dutch maritime border in the 500s. By then Doggerland had been submerged for several thousand years and probably had been so long before the arrival of Indo-European languages in northern Europe.

Posted by: Jen | Jan 13 2021 19:32 utc | 170

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 19:22 utc | 168

"As far as I know the female contribution to Ashkenazim dna is almost exclusively of Eastern European/Slavic origin negating any claim to Levant origin for the Ashkenazim as a whole"

Well, I don't disagree, I just don't care. I'm married to a more or less pure Ashkenazim (3rd wife, 35 years), she is blond, our son has bright red hair (I'm a Scot by descent). I'm as un-Mediterranean as you can get, so I know perfectly well the Ashkenazim are not Middle Eastern. I'm not a fan of the Izzies and their project. I don't want them all killed and driven into the sea either. What is clear is that pre-WWII the region was a patchwork quilt of religous and cultural identities going back thousands of years, the result of being a crossroads between three continents since long before there were humans at all.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jan 13 2021 19:38 utc | 171

Jen 170

I was watching a bit of a doco on the importation of mainland Europe culture into what is now England not long back. Archaeology from opening some burial mounds and and other records.
But who were the people that lived around the Thames and to the area a little north at the time the Romans moved in? I haven't studied it closely but I was under the impression they were not a Celtic people.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2021 19:52 utc | 172

I have only read excerpts from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, but I am confident I am capable of judging the quality of the whole, which is, lies. If you disagree, you have not made an argument by protesting I haven't read the whole thing, much less proven any point.

Similarly, I have read The Sleepwalkers in toto and started Roots of Coincidence and Ghost in the Machine, but gave up as a waste of my time. I have read excerpts in detailed reviews of Case of the Midwife Toad and Thirteenth Tribe and derived a very poor impression thereof. I have seen extensive references to Darkness at Noon and The God That Failed, all of which convince me that, for the first, Koestler wanted to invent an elaborate indictment of Communism as spiritual malaise instead of concluding a mixture of intimidation, hollow promises and torture accounted for the confessions during the Yezhovshchina. And for the second, that Koestler had a very poor understanding of religion in real life, but still wanted to pretend Communism was a false religion, which isn't very coherent even for a professional anticommunist.

But feel free to read Roots of Coincidence. You can then move on to the collected works of, say, Colin Wilson, starting with The Occult maybe. Then you can read The Tao of Physics and The Dancing Wu Li Masters. If you want to go classical and elitist, you can read Plato's Timaeus and/or The I Ching. If you want to go modern and popular, you can read The Urantia Book.

Finding something sinister in disrecommending Thirteenth Tribe is like thinking advising someone *not* to see Wonder Woman 84 is antifeminist.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Jan 13 2021 20:24 utc | 173

Posted by: steven t johnson | Jan 13 2021 20:24 utc | 173

RE: Koestler

He had some interesting ideas, some I've found very useful. I was particularly taken with "Act of Creation". He lost the thread after that, "Ghost in the Machine" was much less impressive. A worthy idea, but he never really suceeded in his exposition. I read Darkness and a couple others, but not that impressed otherwise.

I would not want to see those western authors who chose to become anti-totalitarians in order to be anti-communists back then dismissed for that reason alone. The writers in USSR had to toe the party line too, that doesn't mean you just dismiss them.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jan 13 2021 20:42 utc | 174

Finding something sinister in disrecommending Thirteenth Tribe is like thinking advising someone *not* to see Wonder Woman 84 is antifeminist.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Jan 13 2021 20:24 utc | 173

----

Expending so much time and effort boring the shit out of everyone regarding a book you haven't read, is more stupid than sinister.

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 21:04 utc | 175

I have read .... reviews

Posted by: steven t johnson | Jan 13 2021 20:24 utc | 173

A quick dash by you to Google was easily predictable

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 21:10 utc | 176

steven t johnson@173 "If you disagree, you have not made an argument by protesting I haven't read the whole thing, much less proven any point."

Still true. I know for a fact Koestler is not a sound thinker, because I have read enough of Koestler personally and seen detailed criticism demonstrating the point.

"...boring the shit out of everyone.."

When you don't have an argument, pretending to be bored is only saying, "I don't care," which only matters to your mommy who wants you to be happy all the time. It's a confession of defeat second only to pretending ordinary English is suddenly incomprehensible.

Israel has nukes and plans to use them. That's the context for this discussion, as everybody knows.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Jan 13 2021 21:15 utc | 177

I liked Darkness at Noon. It has the premise similar to the last part of 1984, but not as hyperbolic. Still overdramatized, but not as much as 1984. Well-written, interesting to read.

And here I found a bit relevant to the recent 'holodomor' discussion:

""I," said Gletkin in his usual correct voice, "was sixteen years old when I learnt that the hour was divided into minutes. In my village, when the peasants had to travel to town,they would go to the railway station at sunrise and lie down to sleep in the waiting-room until the train came, which was usually at about midday; sometimes it only came in the evening or next morning. These are the peasants who now work in our factories. For example, in my village is now the biggest steel-rail factory in the world. In the first year,the foremen would lie down to sleep between two emptyings of the blast furnace, until they were shot. In all other countries, the peasants had one or two hundred years to develop the habit of industrial precision and of the handling of machines. Here they only had ten years. If we didn't sack them and shoot them for every trifle, the whole country would come to a standstill, and the peasants would lie down to sleep in the factory yards until grass grew out of the chimneys and everything became as it was before. Last year a women's delegation came to us from Manchester in England. They were shown everything, and afterwards they wrote indignant articles, saying that the textile workers in Manchester would never stand such treatment. I have read that the cotton industry in Manchester is two hundred years old. I have also read, what the treatment of the workers there was like two hundred years ago, when it started. You, Comrade Rubashov, have just used the same arguments as this women's delegation from Manchester. You, of course, know better than these women. So one may wonder at your using the same arguments. But then, you have something in common with them: you were given a watch as a child...""

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Jan 13 2021 21:36 utc | 178

@uncle tungsten | Jan 13 2021 18:50 utc | 165

Thank you for the post. The Puma Punku ruins are intriguing as to their burial under mud. I speculate that there may have been a mud slide or wave from the mountains and higher lands. Rather than a tsunami from Lake Titicaca. I understand there is a submerged ruin on the lake bed that seems to indicate a very different land formation than what we have today.

Puma Punku is high up in the "Altiplano", it lies on a flat plateau. My impression is that there aren't many higher peaks nearby (see the video below). I also know Brien Foerster says the mud came from Lake Titicaca. One of his very interesting videos from Puma Punku is this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4qbgVkwHEQ That place is a real mystery, indicating advanced pre flood technology.

On Burckle meteor, fragments also landed south West of Alice Springs in central Australia. I assume the tsunami from the primary impact would have devastated Yemen, and many places in North Africa. The vast moistur cloud from the impact would have created vast rainclouds hence more flood stories would evolve.

I think it is known to have devastated the ancient city of Dwarka in Gujarat, India and much of it is still under water.

Dwarka Mythical City Found Under Water

Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 13 2021 21:36 utc | 179

@Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2021 19:26 utc | 169

Aus megafauna also died off in that time frame, approx 10,000 years ago. That I think was due to desertification brought about by climate change.

Thanks, very interesting. I didn't know that.

On Sahara, it was once very wet, and one of the big issues wrt. dating the pyramids and the Sphinx is the very apparent water erosion on the bedrock walls of the Sphinx enclosure. It hasn't rained there much at all the last 10 thousand years ...

Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 13 2021 21:42 utc | 180

@Jen | Jan 13 2021 19:32 utc | 170
Thank you very much, I am learning from this!

Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 13 2021 21:44 utc | 181

You, Comrade Rubashov, have just used the same arguments as this women's delegation from Manchester. You, of course, know better than these women. So one may wonder at your using the same arguments. But then, you have something in common with them: you were given a watch as a child...""

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Jan 13 2021 21:36 utc | 178

----

Rather reminiscent of ol Witchfinder General j johnson.

Probably why he didn't take to Koestler too well

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 22:10 utc | 182

Bemildred #171

I'm not a fan of the Izzies and their project. I don't want them all killed and driven into the sea either. What is clear is that pre-WWII the region was a patchwork quilt of religous and cultural identities going back thousands of years, the result of being a crossroads between three continents since long before there were humans at all.

Thank you and mighty well said. Istanbul comes to mind as a locality interlaced with multiple religious and cultural forms. More or less getting along ok. Lebanon too. Damascus struggling to maintain its secular common ground.

It only needs adverse environment or nationalist politics or 'racial supremacy' ploys to rattle the fabric and destroy the peace. May the middle east dispose of its mendacious war mongering leaders promptly and find a gentle accommodation with their differences.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 13 2021 22:11 utc | 183

ooops re my #183

I was referring to all those cities in the past tense, certainly not the present.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 13 2021 22:23 utc | 184

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 13 2021 22:11 utc | 183

Yes. T. E. Lawrence is informative on the stratification of ethnicities in the Levant in the Seven Pillars of Wisdom, though I gather a real historian might criticize. But the point seems obvious.

On the pre-celtic residents of England, I remember that Farley Mowat went into that in Westviking, he had a whole theory starting in E. Europe. IIRC he thought there were mediterranean peoples there first, displaced by the celts, who were colonized by the vikings. Eventually they would up in Newfoundland. Some interesing ruins.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jan 13 2021 22:26 utc | 185

"...The extent to which this idea has been thoroughly propagated to Christian communities of all denominations is breath-taking though.
In my experience modern Christianity almost requires a belief that the modern Jewish community are the very same Hebrews who destroyed the Canaanites millennia ago.

Deviation or disputation of this view in the company of any Charismatic church members is likely to end with having "hands laid upon you" with great and holy fervor."
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 15:41 utc | 127

Dear sir, this is twaddle. What is 'modern Christianity'? I guess it is your definition of Christianity, which is exceedingly narrow, and if I may say so, self-serving. (Sorry to be so blunt, and I'm aware that you are not the only one on this thread pursuing such shallow ideas. Please forgive my impatience here.)

Posted by: juliania | Jan 13 2021 22:38 utc | 186

"What is 'modern Christianity'? "

Posted by: juliania | Jan 13 2021 22:38 utc | 186


---

I suspect he meant "evangelical"/dispensationalist "Christianity."

That weird form of old Testament-obsessed "Christianity" they have in the US, imported from Britain in the early 1840s(ish). The renewed promotion of which was financed in the very late 19th century by Wall St banker and proZionist Samuel Untermeyer.

But perhaps he meant something else, I'm just guessing

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 22:55 utc | 187

Norwegian 179 "That place is a real mystery, indicating advanced pre flood technology."

Megalthic building is interesting. Mostly spread across what would have been very livable regions during the ice age. But there appears to be some sort of culture or religion along with it and some are known to have been built after the last great sea level rise. Most seem to have a good knowledge of astronomy. Humans have been adept at working stone since they created the first stone tools. Differences in finish, from rough stone slabs to polished geometric shapes, may simply reflect how much time they could spare from their everyday business of survival.
None of these places have been built as a necessity of life, their only purpose being religious.
Easter island - Peru how did that culture get to Easter Island that different peoples around the world would come up with the idea of carving transporting and erecting purely worthless chunks of rock is a bit much. Like some sort of disease went through the human race ... or a culture.
I look at this map and ponder a bit. google maps easter island
An underwater archipelago runs from Asia though Pitcairn Island, Easter Island to Peru and Chili. Makes me wonder if at one stage of much lower sea levels there was an archipelago stretching right through, perhaps with trade routs and so forth that a religion or culture could spread.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2021 23:24 utc | 188

Posted by: juliania | Jan 13 2021 22:38 utc | 186

Posted by: Triden | Jan 13 2021 22:55 utc | 187


"What is 'modern Christianity'? "

I suspect he meant "evangelical"/dispensationalist "Christianity."

That weird form of old Testament-obsessed "Christianity" they have in the US, imported from Britain in the early 1840s(ish). The renewed promotion of which was financed in the very late 19th century by Wall St banker and proZionist Samuel Untermeyer.

But perhaps he meant something else, I'm just guessing

I meant exactly that,Triden.

The term used, in some Christian communities, is "Charismatic" or "Evangelical".

It refers to a highly commercialised strain of Christianity exported from the US to many third world and developing countries.

Think Jimmy Swaggart, Billy Graham, Joel Oesteen ... you get the picture.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2021 23:59 utc | 189

Peter AU 1 @ 172:

As far as I know from my own reading over past years, Celts (or their languages and cultures did) arrived in the British Isles during the 500s BCE (or BC). They were not the first peoples there: there were earlier settlers, most of whom ditched their own languages for the new languages. The Celts brought technologies associated with iron-smelting and tool-making, and the associated cultures were taken up by the aboriginal inhabitants.

South and southeast England at the time of Roman colonisation and settlement was dominated by Celtic groups like the Iceni and the Belgae. The territory of the Belgae encompassed both sides of the English Channel. It is possible that the modern Brythonic Celtic languages (Welsh, Breton, Cornish) are actually more closely related to the Celtic languages that were once spoken in Gaul, than they are to the Gaelic languages (Irish, Scots Gaelic, Manx).

The modern Celtic languages are split into two groups, Gaelic and Brythonic. Gaelic probably represents a conservative form of Celtic that didn't undergo the sound changes that the Brythonic languages underwent.

The Pictish language of Scotland, spoken during the Roman occupation, is now considered to be a Brythonic Celtic language. It was later replaced by Gaelic speakers coming over from Ireland and was gone by 1100 AD.

During the 500s BCE the Celts also migrated into the Iberian peninsula (Spain, Portugal) and mixed with the original inhabitants there. This would have given rise to new Celtic languages and cultures, all of them now extinct and with very few or no records of their existence. The Celts also migrated as far as the Anatolian peninsula (modern Turkey) where they became the Galatians with whom St Paul corresponded and gave advice. "Galicia" in Portugal and the old "Galatia" are associated with Celtic peoples; I'm not sure about "Galicia" in eastern Europe though, that name could have been a development from Slavic.

I think what you are most interested in is the people who existed in Britain before the arrival of the Celts in the 500s BCE. These pre-Celtic people were the ones who built Stonehenge. They may have been part of a bigger culture of megalith builders whose stone structures have been found in areas stretching from Denmark all the way down to Spain. The structures are known as menhirs in France. These people could have been part of one culture that existed on Doggerland before it was subsumed by the North Sea. Their language or languages are unknown.

There is now some genetic evidence that Polynesians in the eastern Pacific region might have had contacts with indigenous Americans in Peru or from Peru which might explain how they erected the stone moai on Easter Island. I am not sure on this, but the Peruvians may have had knowledge of softening stone using lime or something similar that made it easier to carve. This might explain how in some parts of Peru, ancient stone buildings are so close fitting that ordinary knives can't be inserted into the joins.

Posted by: Jen | Jan 14 2021 0:24 utc | 190

Peter AU 1 @ 172:

As far as I know from my own reading over past years, Celts (or their languages and cultures did) arrived in the British Isles during the 500s BCE (or BC). They were not the first peoples there: there were earlier settlers, most of whom ditched their own languages for the new languages. The Celts brought technologies associated with iron-smelting and tool-making, and the associated cultures were taken up by the aboriginal inhabitants.

South and southeast England at the time of Roman colonisation and settlement was dominated by Celtic groups like the Iceni and the Belgae. The territory of the Belgae encompassed both sides of the English Channel. It is possible that the modern Brythonic Celtic languages (Welsh, Breton, Cornish) are actually more closely related to the Celtic languages that were once spoken in Gaul, than they are to the Gaelic languages (Irish, Scots Gaelic, Manx).

The modern Celtic languages are split into two groups, Gaelic and Brythonic. Gaelic probably represents a conservative form of Celtic that didn't undergo the sound changes that the Brythonic languages underwent.

The Pictish language of Scotland, spoken during the Roman occupation, is now considered to be a Brythonic Celtic language. It was later replaced by Gaelic speakers coming over from Ireland and was gone by 1100 AD.

During the 500s BCE the Celts also migrated into the Iberian peninsula (Spain, Portugal) and mixed with the original inhabitants there. This would have given rise to new Celtic languages and cultures, all of them now extinct and with very few or no records of their existence. The Celts also migrated as far as the Anatolian peninsula (modern Turkey) where they became the Galatians with whom St Paul corresponded and gave advice. "Galicia" in Portugal and the old "Galatia" are associated with Celtic peoples; I'm not sure about "Galicia" in eastern Europe though, that name could have been a development from Slavic.

I think what you are most interested in is the people who existed in Britain before the arrival of the Celts in the 500s BCE. These pre-Celtic people were the ones who built Stonehenge. They may have been part of a bigger culture of megalith builders whose stone structures have been found in areas stretching from Denmark all the way down to Spain. The structures are known as menhirs in France. These people could have been part of one culture that existed on Doggerland before it was subsumed by the North Sea. Their language or languages are unknown.

There is now some genetic evidence that Polynesians in the eastern Pacific region might have had contacts with indigenous Americans in Peru or from Peru which might explain how they erected the stone moai on Easter Island. I am not sure on this, but the Peruvians may have had knowledge of softening stone using lime or something similar that made it easier to carve. This might explain how in some parts of Peru, ancient stone buildings are so close fitting that ordinary knives can't be inserted into the joins.

Posted by: Jen | Jan 14 2021 0:24 utc | 191

Mr. Trident

Exactly so, which has brought the ostensibly secular Republic to War against Islam, all over a strip of land in Eastern Mediterranean.

The remarkable thing about the Americans of that religious persuasion is that they are still unwilling to end their wars against Islam. And, further, they are willing to see the United States gravely harmed for their religious cause.

Posted by: Fyi | Jan 14 2021 1:08 utc | 192

Jen 190

Thanks for the info on the Celtic peoples.
The part of western Queensland where I spent a good art of my life had a lot of what are called native wells. Small holes about 3 feet deep in a rock sheet that would fill with water in a shower or summer thunderstorm. I was told these were dug by softening the stone with fire and the chip out the crumbling stone then repeat. Limestone can be dissolved in acidic water but I suspect harder stone was just pure elbow grease, perhaps a bit of heat and quench to aid splitting.
I found this interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snz7JJlSZvw hand grinding and polishing a telescope mirror. Grinding rock using water and sand is very fast and efficient. Somewhere on youtube grinding a stone axehead was demonstrated. A suitable riverstone about the right size and shape was found then a handfull of sand and water put on a large flat riverstone as the grinding medium. The grinding was far faster than I expected and somebody whos only tools were stone could have knocked out an axe head with a good cutting edge in several hours.
Re the megaliths, I saw a video in some I think on the Solomon islands or near there. No where near as spectacular as some others but megalithic building all the same. One doco that was about Stonehenge and a few other sites in Britain spoke a bit about a sun worshiping culture

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 14 2021 1:12 utc | 193

So it seems clear that the Zionists in Israel have invented their own state through a gigantic confidence trick. They have claimed a legacy that is completely bogus.

They have invented a racism where before there was none, with the taboo fetish of "anti-semitism". They have promulgated a false ancestry, and perpetuated the belief that they are Semites, and have now declared that Israel by law is the land of the Jews - thus creating apartheid.

And the problem with this scam is that, even as a brazen trickster in the world, they can count on a truly immense and disproportionate support from the very rich, the powerful, the elected, and the published.

What chutzpah it took to bare-face the con in the first place. And it stands, in all its wickedness, as a brazen advertisement for what the Jews have accomplished in their time on the Earth, and during their expulsion from over 100 states of the world. Was it really wise for them to draw this much attention to their ways? And yet, they already had a vast amount of power to be able to pull this off, and it seems that they could dare because they had spread a web of lies so pervasively that their deception even seemed noble.

On the one hand, they claimed victimhood for the lack of a homeland. On the other hand, this did not trigger the sardonic inquiry of why they had been thrown out of so many places. I suppose once they saw that result, the actual occupation was plain sailing.

Posted by: Grieved | Jan 14 2021 2:06 utc | 194

Norwegian | Jan 13 2021 13:19 utc | 96
Mao Cheng Ji | Jan 13 2021 15:38 utc | 126

Coupla' intersting books related to the discussion about origins, and such:

The Wandering Who, Atzmon

re: "Jewish identity politics and Jewish contemporary ideology"

Axis of the World: The Search for the Oldest American Civilization, Witkowski

"traces the spread of this civilization from the Indus Valley, across the Pacific to South America. There stand the culture’s crowning achievements, at Tiahauanaco in Bolivia and on Easter Island off Chile"


Posted by: pogohere | Jan 14 2021 3:25 utc | 195

Let's enjoy our free speech while we can:

Almost a dozen pro-Israel Jewish groups have denounced efforts to codify into US law a controversial definition of antisemitism, arguing that doing so would "suppress legitimate free speech".

In a statement on Tuesday, the Progressive Israel Network, an umbrella group for ten organisations "that care deeply about the State of Israel", called on federal, state and university authorities to refrain from adopting the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's (IHRA) definition of antisemitism.

UK minister criticised for demanding universities adopt IHRA antisemitism definition

The groups included Americans for Peace Now, J Street and the New Israel Fund, among others.

The IHRA definition that the groups spoke out against contains 11 "contemporary examples of antisemitism", such as denying the Holocaust and promoting conspiracy theories about the Jewish people.

But other more controversial examples given include "applying double standards" to Israel, describing the creation of Israel as a "racist endeavor", and comparing the Israeli government's actions with the Nazis.

'Abuse and politicisation'

The definition has been used to label the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement as antisemitic. The Palestinian-led BDS movement, founded in 2005, is an international anti-Zionist effort that urges states, individuals and institutions to economically pressure Israel over its well-documented human rights abuses. The movement has become particularly popular on university campuses.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/jewish-groups-oppose-ihra-antisemitism-definition-us-law


Beware those who venture into Wrongthink.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 14 2021 9:02 utc | 196

Bemildred #185


On the pre-celtic residents of England, I remember that Farley Mowat went into that in Westviking, he had a whole theory starting in E. Europe. IIRC he thought there were mediterranean peoples there first, displaced by the celts, who were colonized by the vikings. Eventually they would up in Newfoundland. Some interesing ruins.

I am surprised the Basque are not more prominent in the occupation of england. They certainly sailed far and wide throughout their history. Perhaps they simply maintained a traders life and kept to their own settlements in the Bay of Biscay. They were navigators par excellence.

Posted by:

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 14 2021 9:28 utc | 197

Norwegian | Jan 13 2021 21:36 utc | 179

Thank you for the Brien Forster video link. I can see that parts of the temple sank into liquefied earth perhaps during a quake. The magnetic laminations in those blocks has much intrigued me over the years. A truly outstanding construction method was applied in that place.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 14 2021 9:35 utc | 198

Jen #190

Here be an interesting paper on the softening of stone in Peru.

On the reddish, glittery mud the Inca used for perfecting
their stone masonry

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 14 2021 9:53 utc | 199

AFAIAC this linguistics thing as in Rus shouldn't speak a version of slavic it should be scandi, is a total furphy.
eg When the vikings invaded then subjugated france, french wasn't washed away by the scandi language, in fact once the former vikings, now normans, invaded and subjugated england, they spoke french for a coupla generations until a version of the old english spoken by the subjugated became their lingua franca. pun lol yuk

Just as the vikings who took over spain, france & england spoke spanish, french & english with a few variations, so did the vikings aka Rus who took control of the region we call Russia.
In the end the bosses need to be understood by their enslaved lest nothing get done - eventually since the local tongue is the language of profit & control, the local language replaces the particular scandi dialect of the oppressors.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Jan 14 2021 10:06 utc | 200

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