Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
January 19, 2021

Dystopia

The U.S. seems to have gone completely crazy these day.

Two full divisions worth of soldiers are closing off Washington DC to 'protect' a mostly virtual inauguration from a non-existing threat.

26,000 National Guard members to secure Washington for inauguration

The FBI is investigating the loyalty of those troops as if it were really in doubt.

FBI vetting troops stationed in Washington ahead of Inauguration Day

The leadership of the Democratic Party has gone completely nuts:

QAnon for Democrats? Hillary Clinton & Nancy Pelosi suggest Putin ORDERED Trump to launch Capitol siege in unhinged interview

Hillary Clinton @HillaryClinton - 22:38 UTC · Jan 18, 2021

.@SpeakerPelosi and I agree:
Congress needs to establish an investigative body like the 9/11 Commission to determine Trump's ties to Putin so we can repair the damage to our national security and prevent a puppet from occupying the presidency ever again.

They are even more crazy than the outgoing pompous Secretary of State:

Nick Schifrin @nickschifrin - 17:14 UTC · Jan 19, 2021

BREAKING: Huge announcement from @SecPompeo: "I have determined that the PRC, under the direction and control of the CCP, has committed genocide against the predominantly Muslim Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minority groups in Xinjiang."

"I have determined ..." Who does the guy think he is?

Meanwhile reality delivered this low blow:

L.A. Suspends Air Quality Rules to Cremate Backlog of Covid-19 Victims

A fail to get a grip on this.

Posted by b on January 19, 2021 at 18:20 UTC | Permalink

Comments
« previous page

It is delusional to believe Trump could pardon Assange. For him Assange is a "communist" and a globalist of the worse kind, making news free and poking his nose in other countries' business.

Posted by: Mina | Jan 20 2021 10:16 utc | 101

kiwiklown, I am appreciating your contributions to MOA - correct and incisive (and most importantly, very similar to my attitudes and thinking! I guess we are both fortunate to experience the radiance of St Jacinda...).

A couple of points - we should remember that less than half of eligible US voters actually vote - so half the population realises what a shitshow the whole thing is, which is why voting for Trump was such a good thing! Secondly, (I now) never consciously refer to the US as America or USians as Americans (unless meaning inhabitants of the whole continent). People of the South, Central, North or islands of the Americas have been wanting this for ages (even some Canadians!)

Unfortunately the hubristic USA (or should that be jewSA) is probably going to do something stupid militarily and the response will make Iran's reply to Solemaini's assassination seem trivial. A severely humbled and punished US will make the world a better place and I'm sure Russia/China etc will help with that correction.

Posted by: tucenz | Jan 20 2021 10:20 utc | 102

A glorious day for D's

Dystopia
Despair
Depression
Deranged
Dementia
Dotards
For a few Dastardly Dems - Delight
If Julian Assange is not pardoned by 1800 hrs UTC:
Donald's Desires, Designs and Demands to be Denied

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Jan 20 2021 11:55 utc | 103

Statement from the Press Secretary Regarding Executive Grants of Clemency

President Donald J. Trump granted pardons to 73 individuals and commuted the sentences of an additional 70 individuals.

But Assange is NOT included. That's more than shameful.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 20 2021 12:29 utc | 104

According to this blog, nothing is happening in Xinjiang. No internment camps exist. No large scale social reenginering is taking place. No one is forced to shave their beards. The Uighurs are living happily ever after.

Posted by: Shah | Jan 20 2021 12:46 utc | 105

Shah | Jan 20 2021 12:46 utc | 105
nothing is happening in Xinjiang

are you there? what do you know about the situation? What would you have me do?

betcha don't answer any of those questions

Posted by: dan of steele | Jan 20 2021 12:54 utc | 106

"Mitch McConnell Reportedly Threatened President Trump: “If You Pardon Julian Assange, We are Much More Likely to Convict You in impeachment trial"

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/mitch-mcconnell-reportedly-threatened-president-trump-pardon-julian-assange-much-likely-convict-impeachment-trial-video/

I don't know whether true or not...but a good way to stick it to McConnell on the way out the door.

Posted by: gm | Jan 20 2021 13:13 utc | 107

@shah - do your own research if you're genuinely interested. Plenty of people visited Xinjiang and reported their findings contrary to the image that you're trying to conjure. If you genuinely care about this religion, you'd be far more outraged with the 500k dead iraqi kids that albright bragged about and the continuing destruction of the middle east. Check out Guantanimo Bay if you're really that bothered. Facts are that Xinjiang population increased, welfare very good with millions brought out of poverty, and this happened despite attempts from outside to cause problems. Shutting down that consulate in Chengdu was a good idea for stability.

Posted by: Mi Gao | Jan 20 2021 13:18 utc | 108

@ Posted by: Shah | Jan 20 2021 12:46 utc | 105

They are reeducation camps. The Uighurs certainly are not - and never will - live "happily ever after". But they are not being genocided and are going to live better lives than their predecessors.

Posted by: vk | Jan 20 2021 13:24 utc | 109

Shah @105

What's your problem with large scale social re-engineering? That is what public education is all about. That is what literacy programs are about. That is what your buddies' Wahhabeast head-chopping training centers are about.

Social re-engineering can be bad, as is the case with you Wahhabeasts, but isn't necessarily malign. Showing your neck-cutting buddies that murder is bad behavior and providing them with skills and support to engage productively with modern society and not remain mired in Stone Age primitiveness is a good thing that makes for happier Uighurs.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 20 2021 13:53 utc | 110

Trump's latest pardons

  • Supposed 'America First' Trump pardons another Israeli spy.
  • Supposed 'Drain the Swamp' corruption-fighter Trump pardons well-connected fraudsters.
  • Supposed 'White Nationalist' sympathizer Trump offers NO PARDON for non-violent trespassers at the Capitol Riot.
  • Supposed Deep State opponent Trump offers NO PARDON for Assange or Snowden, who became hero by exposing Deep State abuse of power.

Also: Supposed 'Law and Order' Trump previously pardoned Blackwater contractors that had rampaged thru Baghdad killing multiple civilians.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jan 20 2021 14:15 utc | 111

@Shah

If you're genuinely interested you can check out reports of people actually visiting the province. There are camps sort of similar to guantanimo Bay for de-radicalising those brainwashed to commit jihadi atrocities in Syria etc. Speaking of which, if you were genuinely concerned about oppression of that religion, you'd be protesting about the on going carnage in the middle east.

Xinjiang on the other hand is relatively prosperous with increasing population of those said to being genocided / sterilised et cetera et cetera.

Its a bit laughable that the premise/intention that your pseudo care for these people will cause them to feel aggrieved and rebel and with Hong Kong make the country fall apart - pretty desperate really. In the meantime you might want to compare and contrast Chinese High speed railways with downtown californian tent cities and faeces in the streets crisis.

Posted by: Migao | Jan 20 2021 14:23 utc | 112

L.A. Suspends Air Quality Rules to Cremate Backlog of Covid-19 Victims

Ahem ... How many deaths does LA normally have from all causes in an average month? Covid deaths in most cases are dwarfed by deaths from the major killers such as road rage, cancer, heart attacks, etc. This is archetypical fake news, as far as I can see. Sorry James, I am going to have to requisition your favourite expression, it is required for more important tasks: "This sounds like a scratched record". Is there no end to the wanton exaggeration of the crisis and wanton manipulation of fear?

Posted by: BM | Jan 20 2021 16:17 utc | 114

Two full divisions worth of soldiers are closing off Washington DC to 'protect' a mostly virtual inauguration from a non-existing threat.
26,000 National Guard members to secure Washington for inauguration
The FBI is investigating the loyalty of those troops as if it were really in doubt.
FBI vetting troops stationed in Washington ahead of Inauguration Day

Something I don't understand. All talk of the troops in Washington DC implies that the reason for the troops is in consequence of the alleged attempt to invade Congress, and with an implicit slap on the hand to Trump. But who ordered the troops into Washington? Can this be done without the orders of Trump? Trump, after all, is still president. Biden is not yet president. Is it in fact Trump who ordered the troops in, or what? Trump is the Commander-in-Chief of the US military, not Biden, and not Congress.

Posted by: BM | Jan 20 2021 16:28 utc | 115

@ bm... i think i have used the term broken record before, but not scratched record' fwiw... glad to see you in fine form today, lol... but on that topic, i happened to notice the numbers of covid related dead in los angeles really overshadow anywhere else in california... l.a. seem to have over 1/3rd of all the covid deaths in california...
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/california/

your turn, lol..

@ 101 mina... i couldn't agree more! these people are really saying a lot when they come and chime that line..

Posted by: james | Jan 20 2021 17:16 utc | 116

@Jen #78

By accessing flight records, Bellingcat claimed that FSB agents had flown around the country to the same locations as the opposition figure.

The information about an FSB team following Navalny is probably true. However, it does not mean that they are the ones who have poisoned him. On the contrary, they were likely assigned to keep an eye on his activities and to protect him.

The call to “Kudryavtsev” is almost certainly fake, though. It is inconceivable that a member of an FSB team would discuss details of such a supposedly high-stakes operation with an unknown person calling from an unknown phone number. For added realism, Navalny could have been kept in the dark about the whole false flag plot; specifically, he could have been told that “Kudryavtsev” he was speaking to on the phone was real.

Posted by: S | Jan 20 2021 17:31 utc | 117

@ 78 jen... thanks for that update and to @ 116 s for drawing my attention to it... of course i see it the same as s's last paragraph.. i am sure you do too! it comes as no surprise that the intel agencies also buy data from corrupt officials.... so that is some of the basis for the insane phone call story... the western intel agencies sure have a lot of money to throw at this.. it is a crazy ongoing game as i see it... makes for good fodder in the western msm, until it doesn't... frankly i am quite tired of these re-runs... i feel like i am in some McCarthyism time warp.... i was not old enough to live thru the first one, but i recognize a re-run when i see one!

Posted by: james | Jan 20 2021 17:58 utc | 118

Sorry, b, but the USA really has gotten so divided that vetting guards at the Inauguration was truly necessary.

The GOP has encouraged a virulent kind of militarized "patriotism" for decades. FOX news has infected huge portions of our population with hatred for liberals and reinforced the racism that is my country's Original Sin. GOP & FOX preach a cheap reverence for our Warriors/Heroes, seducing Non-Coms into believing that Democrats & Progressives aren't "real" Americans so their votes don't/shouldn't count. Many elected Republicans "joked" about a "2nd Amendment solution" to the possibility of HRC becoming President. "Jokes" like that have encouraged millions of Americans live on fantasies of gaining (back?) social status by shooting Bad Guys.

Right-wing tendencies are all too natural in military organizations, where Order is among the most important core Values. GOP has been encouraging this tendency for decades, essentially using US Military as way to "enlist" lifelong voters.

Based on the rhetoric of Trump's Mob AND establishment Republicans, I don't blame Democrats for being paranoid about assassination attempts, even from within the US Military.


I get that you're trying to keep the right-wingers in your audience here happy, but as a German, you should recognize the slide from Democracy to Empire/Fascism which has been happening in the USA; and as a Human, I'd expect you to be appalled & terrified by it. Yes, hastening the decline of the US Empire *could* be a Good Thing; but if the USA collapses into real Fascism, it will be even more dangerous to Life on Earth than the Neo-Lib/Con Empire.

Posted by: elkern | Jan 20 2021 18:44 utc | 119

@Jen: AFAICT Orbis/Steele did not purchase hacked information. They purchased obviously fabricated information. Big difference, as hacked information is more likely to be reliable.

Anyway, 20,000 vetted National Guard prowling the streets for the Inauguration is not a sign of strength but of fear bordering on paranoia.

Posted by: Feral Finster | Jan 20 2021 19:39 utc | 120

Mr. Elkern

I agree. GOP has been the party of White Protestant Fascists for 30 years at least.

I think, however, the real danger to USA is her religious war against Islam and Muslim power. It will destroy the United States, in my opinion.

Posted by: Fyi | Jan 21 2021 2:30 utc | 121

The New Domestic War on Terror is Coming (Glenn Greenwald, January 19, 2021)

Posted by: S | Jan 21 2021 3:28 utc | 122

Remember the bets placed against airlines right before 9/11? Interesting theory:

The Real Reason behind Trump’s Frustration Over the Twitter Ban – Money, What Else?

Posted by: Bemildred | Jan 21 2021 4:31 utc | 123

Speaking of dystopia...stay safe and be careful in Germland there, b.

German Doctor Arrested During Youtube Livestream At Home in attic.

SWAT TEAM breaks down door and forces him to floor for allegedly violating German covid lockdown rules

https://youtu.be/FZq4uMAQ2D4

Posted by: gm | Jan 21 2021 10:45 utc | 124

Latest from the Saker, via Unz.

https://www.unz.com/tsaker/zone-b-exists-thus-there-is-hope-i-promise-you/

Finally, considering all of the above, it is truly a miracle that the deplorables completely ignored a massive brainwashing campaign (waaaay worse than anything the Commies or the Nazis ever came up with!) against “Trump the New Hitler” and still voted for him twice, both in 2016 and 2020! It really goes to show that most Americans quietly but passionately hate the regime in DC and that they use every opportunity they get to at least to try to change their country and their lives by means of voting. Makes you wonder what these “disobedient” deplorables will do the next time around now that voting became clearly a waste of time, don’t it?]

Posted by: gm | Jan 21 2021 11:17 utc | 125

'Breath easy World, and never mind about that silly old pcr test we were freaking out and locking down everyone with'. Now sez the ANNOINTED WHO.

"Surprise, Surprise – Literally one hour after Biden was sworn in, the World Health Organization admitted that PCR testing produces high amplification rates and results and a huge number of false positives."

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/hour-joe-biden-sworn-admits-testing-grossly-overstates-individuals-testing-positive-covid/

Posted by: gm | Jan 21 2021 11:41 utc | 126

@ Posted by: gm | Jan 21 2021 11:41 utc | 125

Fake news. The link you provide us only mentions a non-existent tweet as its source and an alleged report by the WHO, dated from "a few hours after Biden was sworn in". I went to the WHO's website and there's no report or even news dating from January 20th - the most recent update is from January 16th.

The account from the alleged tweet is from a random guy who only published some ten tweets in his life. It's a fake account for all intents and purposes.

Posted by: vk | Jan 21 2021 12:05 utc | 127

@ Posted by: gm | Jan 21 2021 11:17 utc | 124

Those "deplorables" also believe in a lot of bullshit.

Two wrongs don't make one right: they're still two wrongs.

Posted by: vk | Jan 21 2021 12:07 utc | 128

vk @127

How certain are you that the "Deplorables" believe some of the bullshit that you may have been convinced that they believe? White supremacy, homophobia, misogyny, stuff like that? I would argue that anyone who thinks the "Deplorables" have problematic beliefs in this regard are working from flawed (manufactured by the mass media) knowledge.

Now, do some "Deplorables" have bogus beliefs regarding some scientifically verifiable issues like climate change and the notion of the pandemic being a hoax? It's true that these misbeliefs do seem more common among the "Deplorables", but that is hardly universal or a defining trait. The "Deplorables" have learned the hard way to distrust authority, and unfortunately few are equipped to differentiate between legitimate hard science authority and authoritative-sounding talking heads in the mass media spouting screeds backed by flaccid and worthless "soft" science. As a consequence all authority gets distrusted. That said, plenty of "Deplorables" mask up when out and about in public and plenty also believe that climate change is an important issue that needs to be addressed.

From my perspective here in the belly of the beast the "Deplorables" seem far less prone to the really dangerous delusions that are now rampant among the middle class in America.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 21 2021 14:05 utc | 129

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 21 2021 14:05 utc | 128

Nothing personal. It's just that they want to destroy China, in a clear anti-Communist crusade.

The argument that they're pro-STEM in opposition to Humanities is also laughable, as they are the antivaxxers par excellence. Their economic "nationalist" theory ("bring manufacturing back", "Made in America" bullshit) is also pitiful - it pro-capitalist propaganda at its worst, and won't and never will work (far-right utopia).

Like I said: the "deplorables" think they are fooling the rest of the world. They're not and will not.

Posted by: vk | Jan 21 2021 14:49 utc | 130

vk @130: "It's just that they want to destroy China..."

Yes, they watch too much TV, like almost all Americans. That brainwashing applies to "Deplorables" and limo liberals equally, so using it as a distinction is meaningless. It is simply a generalized American problem.

"The argument that they're pro-STEM in opposition to Humanities is also laughable..."

That is a strawman that diametrically misrepresents my post. Reread and then please apologize:

"The "Deplorables" have learned the hard way to distrust authority, and unfortunately few are equipped to differentiate between legitimate hard science authority and authoritative-sounding talking heads in the mass media spouting screeds backed by flaccid and worthless "soft" science. As a consequence all authority gets distrusted."

"Their economic "nationalist" theory ("bring manufacturing back", "Made in America" bullshit) is also pitiful..."

But when Putin advocates import substitution or the Chinese attempt to develop domestic replacements for high tech imports it is good and noble?

It is certainly unrealistic for American workers to think that America can reindustrialize while retaining the current mode of production, but that realization comes from Marxist analysis of what is possible in capitalism, and the skills to perform that analysis are completely absent from America for all intents and purposes. Again, this is a general problem in America and hardly specific to "Deplorables".

For better or worse the "Deplorables" represent America's working class right now. Considering how much they have thrown the establishment into disarray I would hesitate to claim that they are hopeless.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 21 2021 15:23 utc | 131

gm @Jan21 11:17 #125

... it is truly a miracle that the deplorables completely ignored a massive brainwashing campaign ...

Only a "miracle" if you ignore the use of psychology (psyops) and ignore that the establishment has full control of the media (so psyops can be very effective and there is never any 'price to pay' for engaging in psyops).

We have many examples now: Syrian War psyop (White Helmets, "moderate rebels", etc.); the smearing of Assange and near blackout of media coverage about his imprisonment;

But people, even smart people like the Saker, continually ignore the implications of a high degree of media control.

Saker needs to read more Caitlin Johnstone.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jan 21 2021 15:30 utc | 132

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 21 2021 15:23 utc | 131

I never said Putin's economic theory is valid. I've said many times here that the Russian Federation is a failure as a project, and that the ideal scenario would be if the USSR had never dissolved.

Putin is tolerable as a transition leader. But, ultimately (that is, in the long term), Russia will have to go back to socialism is it wants to survive as a truly sovereign people. It will have to re-sovietize one way or the other if doesn't want to become a neocolony of the USA.

Posted by: vk | Jan 21 2021 15:38 utc | 133

vk @133

Agreed that economic nationalism is a marginally viable interim holding measure while the population reacquires the necessary class consciousness and builds a leadership with solid economic understanding. This is just as true for the US as it is for Russia, though.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 21 2021 15:53 utc | 134

RE: "Only a "miracle" if you ignore the use of psychology (psyops) and ignore that the establishment has full control of the media (so psyops can be very effective and there is never any 'price to pay' for engaging in psyops)."

-Jackrabbit | Jan 21 2021 15:30 utc | 132

After the tsunami of recent blatant PSYOPS, media suppression/lies and internet censorship/bookburning/gaslighting that has washed over "Zone A",

culminating in the transparently obvious In-your-face[and you can't do a thing about it!] BORG coup by massive election rigging and corrupt perversion/breakdown of checks/balances system of US govmt, and the preposterously hypocritical 'insurrection' fake narrative to finalize the coup,

I don't think too many US residents are still watching or buying ANYTHING the BORG's PSYOPS tools are putting out these days.

And that includes righties, deplorables, apoliticals and lefties. Everybody is hurting from what the Overlords have been putting them through, and they have finally awakened to who is really doing it, and why;

namely divide and rule to get everyone fighting each other while the elite overlords follow the "Shock Doctrine" playbook once again, to create/manipulate social chaos to their own advantage and profit.

Populist Right & Left Joining Forces Against Establishment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OP5OLBauCg

Posted by: gm | Jan 21 2021 16:21 utc | 135

The loyalty of US security personnel of all kinds to the US Constitution is seriously questioned by all my friends. They don't trust Capitol Police, National Guard, or Military, and they saw the National Guarding of the Capitol as more a risk than anything. More than half of people in such security forces would be likely to favor Trump and listen to the lies about "Election Fraud" on Fox News if not believe them. And the people on top were appointed (if not recently appointed) by Trump and replaced for any sign of disloyalty. If anything, the US consitutional system and Red States are strongly rigged to the benefit of Republicans by making it hard for poor and minorities to vote relative to others, making it impossible to get mail-in ballots in the middle of a pandemic in which Trumpists don't even believe, and making their votes count less than white supremacists' because of the Electoral College. At every level of voting and vote counting there are viciously aggressive Republican monitors and judges, if not the top officials, and all fraud cases brought by Trump were heard and tossed out in a court system in which Republicans also have an advantage.

Posted by: Charles Peterson | Jan 22 2021 5:53 utc | 136

Apologies to all, having been absent most of yesterday, I have some catching up to do, and I haven't yet read b's assuredly pertinent post above, but I shall, as well as all comments.

First, to continue a conversation on a previous thread, yes, James, I did note all opinions, including Jen's pertinent remarks, on their readings at different points in time of Plato's dialogue "The Republic". And I applaud their convictions because those were accurate reactions all have had to the republic that is being set up in the dialogue.

I was amiss when I said that the important persons in the dialogue were those who were being addressed by Socrates within it - no, the important persons are the unknown millions of people down through the ages being addressed by the author which is Plato - and another important omission was that I didn't say how crucial to what happens in the dialogue is WHERE it happens.

Last night I went back to one of my mentors (he doesn't perhaps know it but he is) Bernard Suzanne, to read what he has to say about Book 1 of the dialogue. He has a lot, and I've only just dipped in. But first, I think what has drawn me to the dialogue at this point in time is precisely what b has called this thread, 'Dystopia', the dystopia of the inauguration in all its manifestations - people, place, festivity (such as it was), speech - and even the image of Bernie Sanders, masked as they all were, huddling on his chair against the chill breeze (we know it was cold by the few flakes of snow that fell early on.

And the other thing that makes the comparison was the juxtaposition between the events of Jan 6 and this presentation of the dystopian republic. Where I am going with this is that this is almost exactly where Plato's dialogue also begins. Monsieur Suzanne (he is very French) gives me the gem of scholaraship that the first word in the dialogue is the verb "descend". Which Socrates and his friend Glaucon have done; they descend from the height of Athens, down between the Long Walls to the port of Piraeus and are there for the duration of the dialogue. We began the inauguration with the elderly Biden supported by his wife descending the many staircases of the Capitol building. (Unlike the 'rioters' who rappelled UP). And so it begins...

So now I'll begin at the beginning here as well, with thanks to b and all commenters. If we didn't know it, we were indeed entering Plato's cave, maybe as time travellers, but maybe as residents too.

Posted by: juliania | Jan 22 2021 16:49 utc | 137

tucenz @9 - although a native kiwi, my sadness is I have never been as far north as Whangarei, but I can tell you about Baltimore, having lived in Maryland during the last of my formal student days. You could consider Baltimore to be the Auckland of Washington,DC, or Auckland as it once was, a destination for all large rusty ships carrying cargo from ports far away. In my early student years in NZ, all I knew about Annapolis was "apples from Annapolis" which, when I was there as far as orchards were concerned, apple ones I never saw. But happily, Annapolis did have a Piraeus in my student days and the Maryland countryside generally did remind me of New Zealand - lots of fragrant honeysuckle and it is near the ocean, though a different one.

Of course that has all changed for Baltimore I expect, just as it has for Auckland where now those ugly mega-supposedly-yachts are competing for megamillions so they can race again with slavish sailors bent to the task of pumping madly to achieve a distance from the waves for oilderricks posing as sailing ships. At least they are not polluting the harbour though all the power boats milling about have put paid to the dolphins that used to follow our puny launches years back.

I do not miss being there. It already breaks my heart.

Posted by: juliania | Jan 22 2021 17:38 utc | 138

Good post, vk @ 2, and indeed, we are each of us all little worlds as well.

Posted by: juliania | Jan 22 2021 17:52 utc | 139

karlof1 @ 11, not to give you a swelled head or any other part of your anatomy, but I would include you along with b as being among the true politeia and even philosopherkings of our era. No place for me there as women are not 'in' the dialogues, though I would say they hover above them ;)

Posted by: juliania | Jan 22 2021 18:07 utc | 140

@ 137 juliania... that is an interesting perspective and insight on the descending or descent into platos realm... i still need to know more about plato it seems! thanks..

Posted by: james | Jan 22 2021 18:12 utc | 141

"The best revenge is to live a good life."

Well said, and worth repeating, librul @ 33.

Posted by: juliania | Jan 22 2021 18:30 utc | 142

Yes, Jen @ 41, and Cephalus, in whose home the dialogue "The Republic" takes place, with a conversation between him and Socrates, is a metic, or foreigner, living at the Piraeus whose birthplace was Syracuse. Suzanne describes him as having become wealthy by means of arms production - thus "... it looks like today being part of what is called the military industrial complex..."

My thesis tentatively is that Socrates is not describing a utopian state but an ultimately dystopian one, to fellow participants in cave life. Which makes your objection to your professor's statements and question an appropriate one. And thus I don't mind calling the dialogue "The Republic" in harmony with Franklin's answer, after so many compromises had had to be made at the Constitutional convention, "A republic, if you can keep it". Very savvy, Mr. Franklin, very savvy!

Posted by: juliania | Jan 22 2021 18:47 utc | 143

kiwiklown @ 85:

"...[*] Of course, I do accept that there are some good, decent, non-evil persons working from within the belly of the bureaucratic beast to make things right, moral, just, for America, and for the world. "

We might call these the 'politeia', as I would call the posters on this forum. Or, for those outside government in general, the 'demos'.

Posted by: juliania | Jan 22 2021 18:54 utc | 144

I finally came to the end halfway of page 2 comments -- so many great ones here, and I'd say everyone gets a piece of what is happening, so as an historical document this one counts!

James, when you have time, if there is any of the dialogue to read afresh, and use a search on the participants, it is Book One. The first action, I am proud to say*, even involves a hint at my point about the slave boy in the dialogue the Meno, that unlike Aristotle Plato believes all men to be equally endowed with intelligence, even slaves. The fact that in the first few lines of the dialogue Polymarchus (who will later in life be condemned in exactly the same way Socrates would be) tells his slave to stop Socrates from returning to Athens, so it is the slave who is the active protagonist in this important happening, and who points out that Polymarchus is following right behind Socrates in the same attempt. That's not a small detail!

* as far as I've seen I'm the only one to have picked up on this. But on with the day now -- I'm off to enjoy the sunshine! Thank you all.

Posted by: juliania | Jan 22 2021 20:29 utc | 145

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