Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 04, 2020

Trump Claims Election Fraud, Says He Has Won


With millions of votes yet to be counted, President Trump falsely asserted election fraud, pledged to mount a legal challenge to official state results and made a premature claim of victory.

Weird to have popcorn for breakfast ...

Posted by b on November 4, 2020 at 8:14 UTC | Permalink

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Perhaps some interesting stuff on Pennsylvania

Pennsylvania’s Attorney General Josh Shapiro, a Democrat, found himself in hot water on social media after claiming that President Trump has lost the ability to win the battleground state, just over 24 hours before the polls close on Election Day.

“If all the votes are added up in PA, Trump is going to lose,” Shapiro wrote on Twitter. “That’s why he’s working overtime to subtract as many votes as possible from this process.”

Pennsylvania AG Josh Shapiro Urges Voters to Seek Election Help from Democrats

Video A poll watcher in Philly was just wrongfully prevented from entering the polling place

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 4 2020 16:10 utc | 101

Trump will lose as mail ballots are counted in MI and Wisconsin. Those states alone give Biden 270. Trump's only recourse is litigation. But he will need actual evidence of legal improprieties in vote counting not wild and desperate conspiracies about ballot dumps.

Posted by: Prof K | Nov 4 2020 16:11 utc | 102

@JackRabbit #98
What is clear is that there is no landslide Trump (or Biden) victory.
The NWO doesn't control anything.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 4 2020 16:14 utc | 103

Lots of trolls here today, I wonder why?

Just a passing note about mail-in versus machine voting....which one is auditable?

If there is concern over the numbers coming out of a computerized voting system that has no audit capabilities, where is the trust?

If you have a paper ballot, one can go back and find the voter, at least in Oregon which has had mail-in voting for quite some time.

Claiming that paper ballots are intrinsically more fraud prone than the current computer voting is delusional.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 4 2020 16:14 utc | 104

Good grief this thread puts the covid arguments to shame.
You would almost think that something would change besides the faces.

Posted by: arby | Nov 4 2020 16:16 utc | 105

There are over 1.2 million mail-in ballots being counted in PA. There are hundreds of thousands of mail-in ballots not yet counted in Georgia. Biden is averaging 70% on the mail-ins, so Georgia and PA are still in play for Biden and so is Nevada.

Arizona is heavily in Joe Biden's corner. Michigan and Wisconson have turned blue because the mail-ins being counted are in mostly Democratic urban centres.

Biden is on course to carry Michigan, Wisconsin, Arizona, and probably Nevada and the situation in PA and Georgia looks promising for Biden. If Biden carries those 6 states, IT'S A LANDSLIDE and if SC turns blue, that's the icing on the cake.

And FYI the ballots in PA postmarked election day but received after are being sequestered for the time being in case of challenges to the law.

Only ballots received yesterday are being counted!

So PERIOD shut up!

Posted by: Circe | Nov 4 2020 16:19 utc | 106

If you want to know how irrelevant this election is, read this:

"The bottom line is this: nothing taking place on Election Day will alleviate the suffering of the American people. Unless we do something more than vote, the government as we have come to know it—corrupt, bloated and controlled by big-money corporations, lobbyists and special interest groups—will remain unchanged. And “we the people”—overtaxed, overpoliced, overburdened by big government, underrepresented by those who should speak for us and blissfully ignorant of the prison walls closing in on us—will continue to trudge along a path of misery."

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Nov 4 2020 16:21 utc | 107

bemildred @ multiple entries

Your efforts to encourage common sense are appreciated. I agree with all your points. Voting on one work day seems (imo) always to have been a way to limit the working class vote. As far as massive amounts of votes being lost in the mail, I do not find that claim credible; the accusations of inefficiency or non-performance by the USPS do not bear scrutiny. There is much more to be suspicious about wrt "black box" electronic voting.

Just as I thought it preposterous the wildly fearful response to 9/11, I believed it was a non-sensical argument that the USPS would be incapable of delivering absolutely every vote that was cast - if that were the system we had (which it isn't.) Consider every Christmas season with the massive amounts of letter mail and packages that the USPS handles successfully every year - year after year. And they wouldn't be able to handle one vote from every eligible voter? Bullshit.

As to here in Ohio: I expected Trump to once again carry the state, but not by the same 8pt margin. I hesitate to use the word "suspicious" but it just doesn't feel right.

No matter whom one supports, we should all (the electorate) want to know that all votes have been counted so that legitimacy will attend the result. I do not pre-suppose a winner. The belief that during this election that mail-in voting automatically favored the D's hasn't been born out. The shift to mail-in WAS a rational response to the pandemic, and as reported nearly 100m votes so cast (that total included early voting which pollsters erroneously believed favored D's) did not yield a landslide for Biden. Those 100m votes were cast in good faith that those votes would be counted; no authority can now state that those votes should not be counted. The decision by the fed judge (a highly partisan R)in Texas yesterday affirming that conclusion SHOULD put to rest any demands by Trump to stop the counting, or to eventually throw out any votes legally cast.

Another great aspect of mail-in voting: if one happens to be that elusive "undecided" voter, one can sit at their kitchen table and flip a coin through all the races until the ballot is filled out, and no-one will be a witness to your method of choice.

So, the in-person election day tally favored Trump - as was expected and predicted - and even though no landslide from mail-ins, that tally does seem to have favored Biden - again as expected and predicted. Also, as expected and predicted the mail-in vote is going to take some reasonable amount of time to count. I'm embarrassed at myself for staying up so late because this has gone exactly as was expected and predicted and we probably won't know the result for some days. If this situation leads to "the destruction" of this nation the responsibility for that precipitous debacle will fall squarely on the shoulders of one man - Donald J. Trump.

Posted by: vinnieoh | Nov 4 2020 16:23 utc | 108

Why haven't Georgia, Wisconsin, and North Carolina been called? RCP has them at 100% for hours now.

- Georgia: 16 EV for Trump

- Wisconsin: 11 EV for Biden

- North Carolina: 15 EV for Trump

That would make the race currently: Biden 238, Trump 245

Arizona (11 EV) looks like it will go to Biden, Alaska (3 EV) to Trump: Biden 249, Trump 248

<> <> <> <>

Michigan (16), Pennsylvania (20), and Nevada (6) will determine the winner.

Which ever candidate takes TWO of these states, wins the election.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 4 2020 16:23 utc | 109

@Posted by: Circe | Nov 4 2020 15:03 utc | 69

Joe Biden: "We have put together I think the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics."

That quote really set you off, I see.

This one will make you smile, it did that for me:

Joe Biden: "I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money."

Fraud AND corruption, the perfect candidate for you.

Posted by: librul | Nov 4 2020 16:23 utc | 110

I watched the Guardian live link US election Wed 4 Nov 8.46 UTC. Then again from 12.00 to 13.50.

Vote counting as in % of votes counted - as put up on the G - was paused. See, Ilya @ 16.

In some US States, with time, no extra votes (or tiny number) were officially tallied.

From my notes.

Ex. at UTC 8.46, Wiscon., 94% of votes had been counted. DT 51.1%, JB 47.4%

At 12.30, it was 95% counted. Flipped, in that time, to JB 49.4%, DT 49.1% Is this possible? 1% extra votes counted, upped JB 2% and lowered DT 2%? Note the exact % in both, heh! Weird is not the word…I’ll leave that there.

Georgia - NO change. At UTC 8.46, 94% had been counted, with DT 50.5%, JB 48.3%. Checking it now, at Wed 15.37 UTC, votes counted are still 94%, the results are the same. Nothing happened, the extra votes haven’t been counted/reported.

Pennsylvania has trouble counting votes. At UTC 8.46 only 64% of votes were tallied, with DT at 55%, JB 43.1%. At 15.36, still only 64% counted, but DT was at 54.1% and JB at 44.8%. This last example is impossible, no question.

I did not take screen shots, but there you are.

This post is not in support of either candidate, but aims to show that the whole voting process is corrupted (has been for a long time) and ppl should stop believing in it. It is fakery, a power play that the media supervises, in function of various paying interests. MSM distorts and lies, the Pols wait in the wings, huge sums of money change hands and ‘dissenters’ - in many cases ppl who actually analyse numbers, the effect of policies, etc. are sidelined or junked or worse. The outcome depends on who wields the most clout and has better planning (bribery, Diebold switchers, algos, paper ballots, fakery of every kind..) .. the will of the ppl is immaterial.

An underlying aim of all this is to make ppl despairing, anxious, angry, mistrusting institutions, voting for ex., and thereby getting them to adhere to purely tribal/cult-like groups, which the PTB can then manipulate in a classical divide-to-conquer scheme with alarmist fake news, etc. etc.

guardian live coverage

Posted by: Noirette | Nov 4 2020 16:26 utc | 111

Correction: the decision by the fed judge in Texas was on Monday - I probably need some sleep.

Posted by: vinnieoh | Nov 4 2020 16:27 utc | 112

Nevada is the reason Trump lost it seems. Trump won Nevada last election but not this election.

Now look at this:
Trump have now have 213 votes, if he had won Nevada he would have +6, that is 219 votes.

Then he would possibly win Pennsylvia that is +20, North Carolina +15 and Georgia +16.
What does that number add up to?

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 4 2020 16:27 utc | 113

Arizona screwed Trump.. The psycopath John MacCain from hell getting his last laugh

Posted by: Nick | Nov 4 2020 16:28 utc | 114

*typo at 113,
I meant Arizona which would have generated +11 votes so he would have had more than 270 electoral votes secured if he didnt had lost Arizona to Biden.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 4 2020 16:30 utc | 115

snake @ 65

You are on track but it is not that simple. Each county in America runs its own elections. There are 3141 counties. National and statewide results will be reported to the 50 state capitals, the county runs the show. Who is in charge in each county varies. There may be a county board of election commissioners. There will be a county clerk. There will be a chairman of county board of supervisors or equivalent. Who does what varies. Some of the variation is de jure, most is personalities and tradition. But most of these counties, the large majority of them are absolute one party rule. In which case the most important person will be the County Party Chairman of the ruling party. The Chairman may also hold an elective office but need not. He is selected by the party, not by electorate.

Some of the Chairmen rule as monarchs. Many will be catspaws for a local rich guy or a local large employer. Elections are the most important things these chairmen do. For national elections a large part of the contest is courting and catering to these local satraps. Back in day of Lyndon Johnson or Richard Nixon it was arguable that wooing the party chairmen was the dominant part of any national campaign. Much of the reign of the Clintons was based on their mastery of this phase of campaigning.

The reason for maintaining these anachronisms is the infinite possibilities for corruption. When there is a dispute there are courts and there are election lawyers. Election lawyers look first to who is paying them. Then they look at what is possible. Facts and law are not what election disputes are about. It is about maneuvering a thicket of personalities who are largely immune to any constraints coming from outside their demesne. And it always local and particular.

Few are even aware of this side of elections and yes, it is all done in the shadows. Terminal political junkies as Circe above are not even aware of simple things like the rules for ballot receipt. Which changed completely across almost all jurisdictions in just the past few months. Where I sit ballots must be received by November 17. Postmarked yesterday but may be received for two weeks. This is all new. Make of that what you will. The larger point remains the only rule is there are no rules. It is all what you can get away with.

My county, Cook County, has 5.2 million people, bigger than many states and bigger than some countries. For decades we were ruled by Chairman George Dunne. Who? Near the end of his tenure he was caught on video while two County employees, lesbians, gave him a sex show. He was in his 80s and watching a show was what he could do. The response? At the next meeting of the County Board the Chairman walked into a standing ovation. All the newspapers and all the TV newsreaders cheered him on.

Banana republic much?

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 4 2020 16:33 utc | 116

It seems like the different sides can agree on only two things:

1) Our political system is broken.
2) We need to sanction or invade countries that don't have the same system as ours.

Posted by: Timothy Hagios | Nov 4 2020 16:38 utc | 117

@110 librul

Wash, rinse repeat. Wash, rinse repeat...Trump stooge. It's over. Despite your squealing, every vote will be counted and your fascist pig, dirty cult leader is going down, and that's all I ever wanted.

I'll live another day to fight for absolute Left purity.

Posted by: Circe | Nov 4 2020 16:38 utc | 118

Trump claims election fraud…

Bad mistake on the part of Trump. Very poor strategy. I watched the linked speech, also dismal attitude. c @ 3 says Offense is the best Defense. Not always, not in this case at that time. Too soon. Trump is often quite transparent (in contrast to Obama who was a very good actor, or Bush who was carefully misinformed and believed what he heard), because he is a blustering business man (“Art of the Deal”), where you meet single opponents or teams of 3-7 or so, and everyone knows what the game is, what is being played, negotiated, what the tools are, the potential wins, losses, etc. Stubborn digging in of heels is standard, so is the ‘I know something you don’t attitude’ which Trump exhibits often, see for ex. his posturing on the Wu-flu, the Chinese virus, etc. So I interpret this ‘accusation’ as resting on something he knows or thinks he knows (ha ha) ..but still it is a poor showing. I’m pretty sure Melania wants him to lose, another story.

SFW youtube DTrump

Posted by: Noirette | Nov 4 2020 16:38 utc | 119

when will the OAS request international intervention?

Posted by: Mathaus | Nov 4 2020 16:40 utc | 120

@ Noirette | Nov 4 2020 16:38 utc | 119.. my wife was wondering how melania voted... i thought that was an interesting thought which sort of aligns with yours.. cheers.

Posted by: james | Nov 4 2020 16:41 utc | 121

@Posted by: Circe | Nov 4 2020 16:38 utc | 118

"for absolute Left purity."

You didn't vote for the Dementia Party then. Who did you vote for?

Posted by: librul | Nov 4 2020 16:44 utc | 122

@111 Noirette

🙄💤💤Duuh...Paper trail with voter receipt. What more do you want; a tin foil hat to block government brain wave interference!?

Posted by: Circe | Nov 4 2020 16:48 utc | 123

Posted by: vinnieoh | Nov 4 2020 16:23 utc | 108

Thanks, reciprocated. I think your assessment is about right. Time will tell.

Lots of turnout this time, like 2008. Considering the candidates, that seems interesting.

Happy to say I went to bed around 8:00PM, being in CA I have learned my lesson.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 4 2020 16:50 utc | 124

@oldhippie #116
I don't dispute what you wrote - but I will dispute the conclusion.

House seats are far more fungible.
The Republicans will certainly pick up House seats this election and they're even projected to take control (by 1 seat) at the moment.

Senate seats, in contrast, are extremely stable. I read somewhere, a long time ago, that the US Senate turns over less than the Soviet Union's Central Committee...

What is 100% clear from this election is that the polls are crap - utterly useless. They were even *more* wrong than 2016.

What is also 100% clear is that the it is "lawyer time".
Cue Can't touch this theme.

What is also clear is that a number of sacred cows have been gored (pun intended).

Rising's Saagar mentioned 2 different districts in Texas: 1 in which the Republican incumbent senator lost that district but the district voted +10 for Trump. Another which went Trump +5 despite being 95% Hispanic and literally bordering with Mexico.

What matters is class. Trump has successfully appealled across the class boundary even as the Democrats continue to push race/identitarian nonsense, and despite decades of Democrat lock on the lowest class.

Personally, I think we will see that Trump did very well among black and Latino voters despite the nonstop MSM demonization of him - not that he won, but that these groups are not the automatic lock for the Democrats which that party thought they would be.

If this spurs the Republican party to be more class conscious - to pick up the class gauntlet which the Democrats put down starting with Clinton, this can only be a positive.

As it is - I don't care if Trump actually wins or not, at this point. Republican control of the Senate plus possible Republican control of the House (or even near parity) means Biden won't be able to enact anything too radical.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 4 2020 16:51 utc | 125

jackrabbit @109

They may have to iron out a few things in Wisconsin. I've read that they counted more votes than they have registered voters. Give Sleepy Joe credit for getting the vote out!

Posted by: EoinW | Nov 4 2020 16:52 utc | 126

There are hundreds of thousands of ordinary people verifying, processing and counting votes and the Biden campaign put a micro chip in each of their brains to control the outcome.

That's how stoopid some of your comments read.

Posted by: Circe | Nov 4 2020 16:56 utc | 127

@102 Prof K

NSA has every email and every phone call and Trump can declassify them to be used in court, if there has been shenanigans it will be found out.

Posted by: TJ | Nov 4 2020 17:03 utc | 128

Liberal progress.

Posted by: JoeG | Nov 4 2020 17:03 utc | 129

And now the fuckery really begins...

Posted by: JoeG | Nov 4 2020 17:05 utc | 130

The margins in the decisive states are clear. As of early Wednesday morning, the president was up 300,000 votes in Michigan. He was up 110,000 in Wisconsin. He was up a staggering 700,000 in Pennsylvania. He holds clear leads in Georgia and North Carolina.

Despite a relentless defamation campaign by the press, censorship by big tech, riots by Antifa and Black Lives Matter, the silent majority of Americans turned out to support their president.

Only one thing remains to be done: To stop the left from executing its color revolution and stealing the election in the days to come.

Posted by: frank | Nov 4 2020 17:08 utc | 131

The mess in Pennsylvania shows how this revolution will unfold. The president’s lead there is a staggering 14 percentage points. From the early hours of Tuesday night it was clear the President was dramatically overperforming his polls in the Keystone State, and as votes poured in his lead only grew and grew. But Democrats control Philadelphia and the state government, and they had a plan. Early Tuesday night, they stopped updating vote totals in Philadelphia and announced that they would only resume updates on Wednesday, with counting perhaps taking until Friday.

This is a farce. It does not take four days to count ballots anywhere; it doesn’t even take more than one night. Philadelphia and every other Democratic city could absolutely could have counted every vote in its possession on Tuesday night. The only reason to delay the tally is to muddle the waters and provide Democrats with the necessary time to “find” the votes they need to win. Philadelphia is the exact city to do it in. The city already has a proven record of voter fraud

Posted by: Jimmy | Nov 4 2020 17:09 utc | 132

The Left(Democrats) have managed to sow chaos in our elections by subverting
amd undermining the entire election process.
In the middle of this election, they radically changed the rules of vote counting especially
the notoriously fraudulent mail in ballots which they illegally pushed through in
PA and elsewhere.
The result now?
The Left has gotton the result they wanted.
Turmoil, doubt, pending violence in the streets…
and a full scale
Color Revolution
fueled by the Marxist Media and Siliocn Valley.
Trump and the RNC’s army of attorneys
must push this entire electoral mess to the doors
of the Supreme Court
and a fair resolution to this orchestrated and subversive

Posted by: willie | Nov 4 2020 17:10 utc | 133

This is a fucking disgrace. This is massive fraud on an unprecedented scale with the psychopaths in fake news mainstream media and the low-lives of big tech all in on it. We, the People, must fight back. How can we allow such blatant election stealing and fraud???

Posted by: carl | Nov 4 2020 17:11 utc | 134

You have to give credit when credit is due: for at least the last hundred years the left has played the right masterfully.
The right has allowed itself to be played pitifully.
So pitifully, indeed, that one has to wonder if there’s a tinge of masochism, a touch of secretly boasting self-sacrifice, a smidgen of some kind of Stockholm syndrome and a trace of battered female syndrome in the right.
“Better dead than rude” (thanks Instapundit) doesn’t seem a good motto for free men.
The right is indolent and pusillanimous and faint hearted and spineless, lacking self respect and certainly not being respected by the left.
The left has the right number.
The right has allowed to have its virtues weaponized against it to such a degree that one wonders about the psychological health or lack of, of it.

How come nobody calls the BLM mau mau for what they are?
So stupidly afraid are we of their stupid screams of “waaaaaaaaaaasist!!!”
The black community suffers from a plethora of self inflicted wounds, not racism.
Instead of considering themselves the most privileged black people on the planet their main hobby is to continuously add to a never ending list of grievances.
America is one of the least racist countries there is if you DON’T consider its blacks inhabitants.
And American blacks are not lining up to move to Wakafrica, are they?
No. There’s probably more to Burn, Loot and Murder here.
And safer, too.

And why is nobody calling pantyfa for what they are?
How many sickle and hammers do they have to parade with before people call them for the fagoty commie bastards in the service of foreign countries and traitorous interests that they are?
How much violence has pantyfa have to cause for the iron fist of the government to fall on them?
pantyfa is a terrorist organization.
We Hellfire terrorist maggots all over the world.
And here we let them Burn, Loon and Murder?
People are moving out of the way of the pantyfa juggernaut and nobody talks about these low lives?

And why are we treating the BLM mau mau and the pantyfa commie bastards with kids gloves?
They are all traitors . . .
This is exactly the way things started in pre-nazi germany.
Do we want to wait . . . until what?

Posted by: Ed | Nov 4 2020 17:12 utc | 135


You got a non-twitter source on that? Didn't think so. Wisconsin is currently showing that it has 3,288,832 votes counted with 3,684,726 registered voters.

Posted by: TheBaldFox | Nov 4 2020 17:14 utc | 136

With potential mail-in discrepencies with prior evening counting, it seems as though possible that it will end up in supreme court.

This squares with the establishment's ongoing tactics of enabling urban discord and riots which will no doubt ensue heavily if the outcome is challenged for the foreseeable future.

In the event of their presumed loss, this was their plan to buy time: incite an even more dangerous hate for POTUS by making it appear he will not accept the fixed results.

Dangerous. Dangerous. Dangerous.

Military coup incoming? A JFK-offing? It is certainly setting the stage.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Nov 4 2020 17:16 utc | 137

yes, trump says dumb stuff. yes, he's saying it without proof. that said...the media has no proof to the contrary either. these are the same twats who spent the last month blocking ANY coverage of biden's son going full on "bad lieutenant" and trying to ooze his way into shady international deals. never mind their role in the 2000 (and 2004) election shenanigans. they hardly have the high ground so their petulant and pompous tone is wearing thin.

i just hope susan sarandon is in a safe undisclosed location.

Posted by: the pair | Nov 4 2020 17:18 utc | 138

check out sst and Larry Johnson`s last musing there.
tRump is getting his victory stolen as i type...
It is amusing to see how many hasbaras and demoncRat izombies that feel the urge to call this clearly quite leftie blogger a tRump nazi😂
Us reasonably intelligent eurotrashers are still fond of real leftism unlike murcans that actually believe bernie is from the left👀

Posted by: Per/Norway | Nov 4 2020 17:20 utc | 139

Wisconsin and Minnesota seem to exceed 2020 registered voters.
Can anyone give a legitimate explanation?

Posted by: Mercury | Nov 4 2020 17:28 utc | 140

So, rather unhinged responses here ... people sleep ok last night? Soe out and out racists creeping in too ... b may want to clean house a bit here.

No, there is not "massive fraud" happening ... there's just vote counting. Let it happen and we'll have our results soon enough. Frankly, if Nevada and Arizona, Michigan and Wisconsin come through today, as they should, it will all be over and it won't matter what happens in Penn.

The actual vote in the US is a state and local affair. It is by and large pretty clean. It is basic to our democratic system and it is in the interest of all to keep it that way. Therefore, I hope and assume that the Republican powers that be like the leaders and reporters of Fox will (as they have been so far) stick to reporting the facts as they come in.

Posted by: Caliman | Nov 4 2020 17:28 utc | 141

To #14o:

Explanation is that you have crap data?

Posted by: Caliman | Nov 4 2020 17:29 utc | 142

Wisconsin reporting over 100K more votes than total registered voters with 3% still to go...
Behold. Liberal progress.

Posted by: JoeG | Nov 4 2020 17:30 utc | 143

@125 c1ue

There's so much bullshit in your comment, where do I begin?

Dems have retained contol of the House and some important Senate races have not been called yet!

LOOK IT UP before posting nonsense.

Also the only Latinos supporting Trump are anti-Maduro Venezuelans and anti-Castro Cubans! Puerto Ricans and Central American Latinos support Biden.

And don't gimme that class shit! Blacks support Biden by a wide majority and will win this election for Biden together with women! Also, Biden is pulling an upset in Arizona thanks to Latinos, women and seniors!

Quit spreading disinformation.

Posted by: Circe | Nov 4 2020 17:33 utc | 144

Lots of unfamiliar commenters all of a sudden posting garbage, disinformation, and insulting the host of this blog. Hopefully b can reactivate his Kärcher® and make this thread more readable!

Posted by: vato | Nov 4 2020 17:35 utc | 145

Geez! What a circus! My side of the nation went massively for Biden, the huge margin in California being rather impressive. But as we knew before any ballot was cast, the Duopoly won and the Neoliberal Parasites will remain in control as we knew they would. So, no genuine changes. Congressional chemistry is as yet undecided, too, but many needing replacement still remain. Marijuana initiatives passed in all 5 states, while here in Oregon the drug decriminalization and treatment initiative 110 passed. Wall Street as one might expect doesn't seem too concerned about the closeness of the contest as its players win regardless. So, those looking for change will need to investigate state-level results. If the election moves into the House, Trump will win as there it's one vote per state.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 4 2020 17:46 utc | 146

#Caliman 142

I have seen the snopes article and twitter, snopes claims it's problem from a 2018 census.
I used the 2020 listing on world population review who take verified data from US census bureau.
Whatever Wisconsin says. I don't believe we'll see the end of this until January.

Posted by: Mercury | Nov 4 2020 17:47 utc | 147

Bald Fox @ 136

If your figures are correct Wisconsin had an 89% turnout. And still counting. Nothing like that ever happens.

Expect more of this.

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 4 2020 17:48 utc | 148

The electoral college system is outdated and done in early on because the racism and the idea of poor uneducated persons do not know any better to elect their representatives.
So it is a system should be sacked long time ago .
Mr Trump louse , criminal , disrespectful to the law , non paying tax , stupid , racist , un human and he is not going to win the election in spite of the stupidity of the Democrats and the senile Biden.
I was expecting landslide for the Democrats after all the shanigan Trump has done to this country , but I guess we have stupid uneducated , racist class of the people who hate new immigrants , deeply pseudo religious care about the unborn person while they send army to kill Muslims and Arabs and any body else disagree with their policy .stupid stupid

Posted by: Bobb | Nov 4 2020 17:54 utc | 149

c1ue @Nov4 16:14 #103

What is clear is that there is no landslide Trump (or Biden) victory.

Yes. Trump has done much better than expected but it's not a landslide. If he wins, he will not be any kind of 'Glorious Leader'.

That is somewhat encouraging as it makes it less easy for him to take the country to war.

The NWO doesn't control anything.

Anything? You are using my failed prediction to exaggerate. Do you think no one here will notice that?


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 4 2020 18:10 utc | 150

Slovenia's president has already congratulated Trump for his victory!

Turkey, Slovenia.. the associate countries of the EU are...exemplary!

Posted by: Mina | Nov 4 2020 18:11 utc | 151

BREAKING: Trump campaign says Trump will immediately request a recount in Wisconsin

“Despite ridiculous public polling used as a voter suppression tactic, Wisconsin has been a razor thin race as we always knew that it would be," Bill Stepien, Trump 2020 campaign manager says in a statement.
"There have been reports of irregularities in several Wisconsin counties which raise serious doubts about the validity of the results. The President is well within the threshold to request a recount and we will immediately do so.”

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 4 2020 18:12 utc | 152

Bobb | Nov 4 2020 17:54 utc | 149

"I was expecting landslide for the Democrats after all the shanigan Trump has done to this country , but I guess we have stupid uneducated , racist class of the people"

No, the voters weren't as stupid as you thought. Now to completely purge hyper-stupidity we just need to purge the "covid" madness.

Posted by: Russ | Nov 4 2020 18:12 utc | 153

@oldhippie 148

Not declaring everything on the up and up in Wisconsin, just trying to debunk the argument about higher votes and registered voters... However, Wisconsin is also a same day registration state which may also account for some of the fluff.

Posted by: TheBaldFox | Nov 4 2020 18:12 utc | 154

By the way, for all the Trump fans fanning the flames of disinfo on every thread they can, any comment on the undisputed fact that the person who you feel is being wronged and whose election is being "stolen" has again lost the nationwide vote by millions?? That in any legitimate democratic system he would have indisputably lost big and there's be no argument?

Yes, we have a state system and the rules are the rules. But those same rules are what you all seem to be disputing! So let's all shut up and let the states tell us who won their votes, eh?

Posted by: Caliman | Nov 4 2020 18:13 utc | 155


Trump has been assaulted by the media with their fake Russiagate conspiracies since day one, "wronged" do not even cover half of what he has been through every single day and thus one big reason why he lost, the propaganda become too much for him.

That the election could be as close as it is with the entire non-conservative media arrayed so completely and ruthlessly against one candidate should probably give you some sense of how low regard the media is held in by huge portions of the country

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 4 2020 18:20 utc | 157

@Circe #144
At the time of my previous post - it was Democrats 217, Republicans 218.
Now it is showing Democrats 218, Republicans 217.
Even if the Democrats pick up 1 or 2 more House seats - it will still be a YUUUGE House loss of 17 seats. This more than offsets the Republican loss of 1 Senate seat.
But it is nice to see that you still have no credibility.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 4 2020 18:21 utc | 158

@ Posted by: Laguerre | Nov 4 2020 11:47 utc | 38

"[T]here are a lot, at this moment, of uncounted mail-in ballots in Pennsylvania, more than 2 [or 3] million from what I saw. I don't know why that is. Elsewhere not so many."

Each state has its own rules for counting absentee ballots.

Pennsylvania has a rule which prohibits it from even opening mail-in ballots before election day. This is extreme rule.

In the state where I live mail-in ballots were opened starting last Saturday. They weren't counted but it was allowed to remove the ballots from secrecy envelopes, uncrease folds when necessary (so as to be machine readable), stacked and sorted. This reduced amount of time needed to do count on election day, the first day they were allowed to be counted. The counting machines here are not secure, but hackable. It's more of the same turd show ongoing for decades. Oligarchy in declining empire.

Posted by: suzan | Nov 4 2020 18:21 utc | 159

@JackRabbit #150
You made a specific prediction.
It was completely wrong.
Not sure what else there is to say.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 4 2020 18:22 utc | 160

Greg Palast on how WI,GA,MI purge voters

Posted by: gersky | Nov 4 2020 18:26 utc | 161

@Caliman #155
Old and failed argument.
The law of the United States is the Electoral College system.
If you don't like it, get it changed via Constitutional amendment.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 4 2020 18:26 utc | 162

Impressive collection of Snowflake Butthurt Tards for trumP whining conspiracy !

trumP made Amerka great again-
Now Abraham Jebediah "Abe" Simpson II (better known as Grampa Biden) will build it all back bitter.

Americans, Right and Left, are the real fucking problem, not it's fake 2 "party" corrupt fraud of a system.

Posted by: CitizenX | Nov 4 2020 18:29 utc | 163

Zanon @157--

Trump very easily could have shut BigLie media's mouth by arresting Clinton and purging all the malefactors from the FBI and Injustice Dept, but he refused to do his job as Chief Magistrate as I pointed out as soon as he was inaugurated--just like Obama. For the most part, Trump's supposed woes are all self-inflicted, particularly with Russiagate. This of course in no way exonerates Biden from his immorality and depth of corruption. We The People were never going to have a champion in this election, which is where the great weight of evidence lies.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 4 2020 18:29 utc | 164

At least 500,000 outstanding ballots for Arizona. According to this polling company based in Phoenix Arizona the ballots to be counted are heavily Republican.

Posted by: Down South | Nov 4 2020 18:31 utc | 165

The Bald Fox @ 154

And I made an inaccurate statement on top of a correction. Just read that Wisconson did finish counting a few hours ago.

Most of the talking points we will be reading the next month are going to be canards and half-truths. We are going to buried by them. No one is going to dig out from under. Death by minutiae.

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 4 2020 18:31 utc | 166

EoinW | Nov 4 2020 13:38 utc | 53:

California, a Democrat stronghold, have taken steps towards succession.

Timothy Hagios | Nov 4 2020 16:38 utc | 117:

Actually, it's "We need to sanction or invade countries that don't bend the knee."

Mercury | Nov 4 2020 17:28 utc | 140:

Did you check the local cemeteries? ;)

Posted by: Ian2 | Nov 4 2020 18:33 utc | 167

Trump is applying just the esqueme he has applied to every country still with a no-puppet government out there during his past mandate.

Currently eating mot pop corn but chips...

In case he loses and he does not get a "peaceful transition of power", he could make a Tikhanouskaya, and look for refuge in, may be Slovenia, where he has received fast support from and from there organize a color revolution...

Although may be he can be declared outlaw, even when winning indeed, like happened to Evo Morales, and under menace od death of jail, leave anyway for Slovenia, where he can organize a mercenary invasion, the Venezuelan style, through a US fishermen settlement or so...To gain support from the international community, he could claim ownership of any US asset placed in the Bank of England, or whatever bank for that matter, be it the US gold reserves or whichever, being "Presidente Encargado" allows you to do that and much more...Also it could help organizing a concert with the help of the Virgin CEO in the US border with Canada, counting with the ehlp of the Tea Party, where he could place some trailers full of letal weapons and metalic material with which to arm the Trump militias and provoke riots, ready to cross the border illegally even jumping over the Us National Guard....The usual puppetery from music people could be invited to perform...Michel Bachelet could claim for the respect of human rights in the US, Almagro could menace with expelling the US from the AEO, or expell it directly and the US embassy in the US could be stormed and seized.
All Exxon Mobile assets in the US could be requisitoned as well to finance Trump crusade for "democracy" and "rules based order"...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 4 2020 18:33 utc | 168

Trump: I should have fired Comey 'the day I won the primaries'

I agree with you that he should have fired these people directly, however - that would have looked suspicious by him, instead he tried to be open and transparent, but he had no idea what he would start by taking that position..

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 4 2020 18:35 utc | 169

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 4 2020 18:29 utc | 164

Which prerequisites and hypothetical steps are necessary for the election to be finalized by the House.

They all refuse to do their job, corporatist solidarity, I do not prosecute, I won't be prosecuted...

Posted by: Paco | Nov 4 2020 18:36 utc | 170

One thing is clear out of this election.
America rejects socialism.
Thank you POTUS!

Posted by: JoeG | Nov 4 2020 18:36 utc | 171

Get Ready For Anarchy After The Election. Here’s The Playbook

This article is not our standard fare. It’s not strictly an article; it’s a 39-page manual for urban terrorists under the banner of Antifa on how to organize and conduct riots and looting. You can think of this as the playbook for what will happen beginning tomorrow night shortly after the election polls close and the vote totals begin to be announced. This terror manual offers many insights into the minds and tactics of Antifa leaders. They are highly decentralized. This does not mean that Antifa does not exist as an organization. It does. It means that the organization has no single leader and no uniform approach to violence. Instead, it encourages local leadership and adaptation of tactics to local conditions.

Source: This is form James Rickards. James G. Rickards is an American lawyer, speaker, media commentator, and author on matters of finance and precious metals. He is the author of Currency Wars: The Making of the Next Global Crisis (2011) and five other books.

Posted by: BlackBox | Nov 4 2020 18:37 utc | 172

Did the Russians turn on Trump or did the Iranians take him down?

Bu-wah-hah-ha-ha-ha ... I just hope the psycho doesn't start a war in his lame duck session.

Biden won, Trump lost. The Networks are just playing up the drama at this point. CNN dragged out the 2016 election night coverage as well with the Snow White guy contorting 'narrow roads for HRC' even after the NYT called the election (accurately) for Trump in 2016.

Posted by: Christian J. Chuba | Nov 4 2020 18:38 utc | 173

david goldman @ has a brilliant summation.

Posted by: emersonreturn | Nov 4 2020 18:43 utc | 174

#162 c1ue:

I was not making an argument for the popular vote counting; we all know the rules.

I was pointing out the hypocrisy of claiming something is "unfair" or untoward in each state's election process WHEN THE ONLY THING WORKING IN TRUMP'S FAVOR IS IN FACT THE STATE ELECTION PROCESS that we have!

In other words, Trump should STFU because the system couldn't be stacked any more in his favor if he had designed it.

Posted by: Caliman | Nov 4 2020 18:44 utc | 175

Yesterday, in an special program on US elections, it was told that voting in the uS is not at hand of anybody, since, although an identity card is not mandatory generally to cast a vote, some states or counties could made it mandatory, and it seems that getting one is not so simple task in the US.

This is how millions of people, mainly workers in the US, get eliminated from the voting process, getting without representatives, a probable cause why the allegedly bipartisan system became a monoparty system, since the possible leftisit in the Democrat Party have no power of decissionm onky the right to make some statements at Congres, which, well, serves at dispelling of rage.
Working people, except some from middle class, get out of the electoral process, thus, US system could be labeled whatever, but real democracy it is not.

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 4 2020 18:47 utc | 176

karlof1 responds to Zanon @157--Trump very easily could have shut BigLie media's mouth by arresting Clinton and purging all the malefactors from the FBI and Injustice Dept, but he refused to do his job as Chief Magistrate .. Trump's supposed woes are self-inflicted, and Biden immorality and depth of corruption (just now surfacing). <=I respond The people karlof speaks of are called the governed. <=the constitution was written to bring about the exact result we have.. private Oligarchs and their corporations together with a media owned by just 6 person (which neither party wants fixed) and complete and total control over the Internet.. as long as the people allow themselves to be divided by false and misleading national elections <=nothing will change, except the ??? in the white house. Here we are: <=9 people appoint 1 to be the leader, the leader suggest a binary: <= remain on the Island or leave, 4 vote to remain, 4 vote to leave, <= 4, the leader always wins.
No American in their right mind wants either Biden or Trump to be their President, and most don't the senators or the house member from their state or home district <=unless such mindless persons belong to the one of the private corporate mafias.
Each side in the USA (not America, but a corporation d/b/a government) is hell bent on getting a chance at using the USA to take what than want. Americans just watch as crime after crime against humanity is regularly perpetrated by false misleading periodic elections.

Posted by: snake | Nov 4 2020 18:55 utc | 177

"Very weird": Trump claims he was leading in many key states, but then "one by one they magically disappeared" with surprise ballot count

Yeah, shit happens, I was heading Marathon Des Sables, when all of sudden, "magically", from the lontananza, they appeared one Jamaican and a Somali who fast overrun was at the last 1000 meters from finish point...Very weird...I had run alone for around one hour, had done such effort...almost died of thirst and heat... and had such a winning mood...could not believe it...But I had no acquaintance amongst the judges and had to of them had won....

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 4 2020 19:01 utc | 178

Trump called it,
In august he said this:

The president has repeatedly said mail-in ballots will lead to voting fraud and give a boost to his rival Democrat Joe Biden.

I am not saying that fraud occured but I assume it would be pretty easy to get away it when it comes to mail voting and tempting in these times by democrats.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 4 2020 19:02 utc | 179

If the Dems only have a tiny majority in the House, that will give a lot of leverage to the leftist Squad.

Didn't Pelosi promise that this would be the last Congress in which she would be Speaker? If she carries out that promise, a new Speaker will have to be chosen. In which case, that leverage will matter.

The alternative to choosing a Speaker acceptable to the Squad would be to choose a House member that some Republicans could vote for.

Posted by: lysias | Nov 4 2020 19:06 utc | 180

If Trump is half as smart as he claims and wants to continue to be the President he needs to back up these allegations of vote rigging or fraud on the part of the Democrats with some big public display of the evidence. Alternatively, he can use his Presidential authority to declassify a bunch of documents that would be embarrassing and/or delegitimatizing of the Democratic party. However, I doubt he will do either. I have a "feeling" that most of the conflict is being done behind close doors at the moment between the two parties, trying to threaten/bribe key government officials into supporting Trump or Biden, and once one of the sides has a clear majority of support from these elite figures the "final" votes will be released to the public with one side then conceding (probably with the promise of no prosecutions). I suspect BLM will start some large riots tonight or tomorrow as a part of the negotiations

Posted by: Kadath | Nov 4 2020 19:10 utc | 181

As it happens, BLM "protests" are scheduled in D.C. throughout this week.

Posted by: lysias | Nov 4 2020 19:14 utc | 182

I keep seeing chatter about mail-in ballot fraud. From everything I read, at least how they do it in the States, fraud is pretty darn hard to commit

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 4 2020 19:20 utc | 183

If a Biden win does appear legitimate and unquestionable, which it can and will probably be easily painted as, you will see an immediate exodus of many, many Trump supporters from his ranks. I see Ben Shapiro, whom I more or less find detestable, has already been distancing himself from POTUS by questioning whether POTUS was right when claiming to have won before all these states suspiciously stopped counting right when Trump leads were massively widening.

Those who do easily abandon him should be labeled as the RINOs they are, products of the chameleon establishment which, when the economic nationalism of Trump shows chinks in the armor, will pounce on such an idea and will quickly relish the return to the real fake-wrestling of the duopoly where the uncouth nature of the deplorables have no power.

Are you all ready for civility back in the U.S. political scene?

You should know what it means.

Russia is readying itself.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Nov 4 2020 19:24 utc | 184

Paco @170--

The election goes to the house if no candidate gains the 270 or more electoral votes to win. My current prognosis is Biden 270, Trump 267. But Nevada is extremely close and would make Trump 273, Biden 264. Given the very narrow margins in many states, there will be mandatory recounts; so, the election won't be decided for several more days, perhaps an entire week. Perhaps more. But as I wrote, the winners and losers were never in doubt. The Forces of Reaction will remain in control as they have since 1944 when they cemented their future by getting Wallace purged as VEEP and Truman installed. In the essay by Paul Jay I provided yesterday, FDR in 1938 told Congress and the nation that those Forces were already very powerful and deeply entrenched (Do a CTRL-F search using FDR to quickly find the references.). But as with Trump's failure I noted @164, FDR was also his own worst enemy for not having those behind the Businessmen's Coup in 1934 arrested and divested of all their property--perhaps the least investigated important event in US History--as most regained Power; and hidden behind Truman, launched the Outlaw US Empire on its trajectory to where we stand today. Only a massive revolt by a citizenry united in Solidarity will provide the upheaval required to genuinely change the USA. And as this election shows quite well, such Solidarity won't be arrived at anytime soon.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 4 2020 19:27 utc | 185

snake @177 "Americans just watch as crime after crime against humanity is perpetrated..."

The inestimable Glen Ford at Black Agenda Report once wrote, " Americans are not inherently a bloodthirsty people. But they do have a high tolerance for spilling other peoples' blood."

Posted by: robjira | Nov 4 2020 19:31 utc | 186

Bernie Sanders called it right months ago.

Posted by: Kadath | Nov 4 2020 19:10 utc | 181

When did they "suspiciously" stop counting votes and where? What is the status of those votes/states as we type?

You guys are sounding a lot like the right-wing bunch down in Bolivia when they pretended not to understand how Evo Morales initially looked to be losing, but ended up winning once the harder to reach areas had their votes finally counted. It's been well documented here at MOA.

The only "color revolution-ing" I see going on is from Trump and his premature statements to back his earlier constant crying about mail-in ballot fraud (which he and the Republican establishment knew would lean heavily Democrat). But there won't be a typical color revolution anyway, it'll be fought out in the courts and numerous parties will take to the streets and attempt various things, including stopping of recounts (see: Brooks Brothers riots - or just the 2000 election in general) and mayhem (the protests currently outside the White House).

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 4 2020 19:31 utc | 187

If the election goes to the House (which it seems one faithless elector could accomplish if Biden stands at 270), a majority of state House delegations would presumably re-elect Trump, considering the GOP gains in the House.

Posted by: lysias | Nov 4 2020 19:35 utc | 188

Lots of lefty gloating...

Posted by: JoeG | Nov 4 2020 19:38 utc | 189


Half of GOP turned RINO past four years it seems, GOP could learn alot from DNC how to mobilize.

Every time crime, fraud or lies win, they grow stronger. Those can’t be allowed to win at any cost. The GOP always falls back, surrenders, or remains silent. They never fight back or stand up. Trump does and that’s what draws this nation’s real people to him.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 4 2020 19:45 utc | 190

JoeG @189--

There's no "gloating" here by genuine Leftists as we already know the outcome and knew it before any vote was cast. People like you need to wake the fuck up and look at what controls power within the Outlaw US Empire and has since 1944--hell, since 1913 with a brief interlude between 1933 and 1944. But that seems too tall a task for many millions of US citizens--the most indoctrinated citizenry on the planet. A pitiful reality actually.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 4 2020 19:46 utc | 191

So far Biden leads Trump in the popular vote by 2.6 million votes (50.2 to 48.2) with 1.2 million votes being counted in PA. That figure will surpass 3 million.

Posted by: Circe | Nov 4 2020 19:48 utc | 192

Interesting how many posters talk like somehow the Democrats are Lefties.

Posted by: arby | Nov 4 2020 19:55 utc | 193

So you won't be burning shit down when Trump pulls it out?
You live in Oregon moron.
If you hate America so much why do you stay?
Who's indoctrinated Karlof?

Posted by: JoeG | Nov 4 2020 19:56 utc | 194

Circe still counting popular votes...LOL.

Posted by: JoeG | Nov 4 2020 19:57 utc | 195

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 4 2020 19:46 utc | 191

Agree. Who's GLOATING? That's ridiculous. Speaks to a very profound fragility complex in the typical right-wing mind. I read your linked essay about FDR and finance and it rings true. Your overture to JoeG was wasted, I'm afraid. Even when I left the USA back around the time of the last presidential election, you'd have encountered the same thing when trying to get people to open up their eyes to what's really happening. It has gotten worse. People have intentionally chosen their own bubbles of reality within which to live and any outside information has a very hard time breaching it. They are camped out, hunkered down in their beliefs and that won't be changing any time soon, if ever. The long-running finance plot to divide the masses while plundering the public trust and assuming control over the organs of government needed to protect their racket has succeeded wonderfully. Hence, you see people like JoeG responding to simple, factual posts as "gloating" - because now that the "other side" is your enemy, anything that they say constitutes "hate", "stupidity" or "gloating" and negotiation and discussion becomes impossible.

Perhaps even more obviously, anyone that thinks any regular poster here is going to celebrate if Trump loses and gives up power is operating from within their own bubble (maybe barring Circe, I skip over a lot of his stuff now, but I didn't think he was in favor of Biden - rather, VERY anti-Trump- the last time I looked) and isn't seeing the situation correctly.

I'm a little less optimistic than Paul Jay is in his essay. I think a second civil war and likely (selective) martial law are inevitable in the USA (and possible in other places too, including western Europe) and it's only a matter of how long and by what methods.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 4 2020 19:58 utc | 196

Ultimately, it makes little direct difference to anybody outside of a very small number of people who wins this Presidential election.

The wars will continue, the corruption will continue as will the lying, hypocrisy, malevolence and all the U.S. is and stands for.

What has changed, although there will be many billions of people who for, whatever reason will not see or comprehand it, is that democracy as such in the U.S.A. is merely theater. Some may even come to realize that what is supposed to hold the country togehter is so corrupted and roitten, that the inevitable collapse has just moved closer by several years.

Posted by: Beibdnn | Nov 4 2020 19:58 utc | 197

one can read an urban terrorist manual off google... how odd... is the cia handing out urban terrorist manuals too these days?? or are they doing it via google??

Posted by: james | Nov 4 2020 20:01 utc | 198

Re: _K_C_ #181,

They stopped counting the votes in several of the battleground states with Democratic governors (sent the counters home to sleep I suppose). Counting votes is pretty simple there's no need to take a break on counting state-wide all it does is create uncertainly on the election results as the longer vote counting takes the more opportunities for cheating take place. Now, I don't know if wide scale cheating took place to steal the election (which is why Trump needs to put up some evidence of his claims).

Now that both candidates have essentially declared victory and are going to the courts to fight it out in an even bigger version of the Gore vs Bush legal drama, US elections are already badly tarnished by their history, another protracted legal fight to decide the winner will fundamentally taint US elections even further. Presumably there are some government figures that are aware of this obvious fact and negotiations are taking place to create some solution for the good of the state between the two parties to resolve the conflict. But backroom deals to resolve elections will not inspire the confidence of the people.

Posted by: Kadath | Nov 4 2020 20:01 utc | 199

Wow! That's a big change overnight - now the numbers show that Biden gets 270 if he wins MI and NV. Maybe its all legit, maybe not. The truth may not matter.

Personally I don't care who wins. In a few years most of us here won't care either. I reckon we'll be looking approvingly at how much better the world is without the US empire.

To me, the most important aspect of this election uncertainty is that it brings the end of empire that much closer, that much sooner.

Posted by: Deltaeus | Nov 4 2020 20:08 utc | 200

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