Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 27, 2020

The Vaccine Competition Will Be Ruthless

Debs is dead writes:

[T]he pushback against AstraZeneca including the latest link which is all speculation mixed with the same trash talk wall st analysts have been making, is a blatant move by big pharma to edge AstraZeneca out of the market.

There is more testing to be done on the AstraZeneca vaccine. Yes the discovery of a half dose followed by a full dose seeming to be more efficacious was the result of a distribution accident in one particular cohort comprised of Englanders under 55, AstraZeneca have realised that and have undertaken to extend the 50/100 trial across all age groups and ethnicities in the next testing round.

Also despite the fact that the big pharma mRNA vaccines have published no peer reviewed results, AstraZeneca report that they have sent a peer reviewed study of their complete test results thus far, to the Lancet and they expect these to be published in the next edition of the journal - likely within the next few days.

However many people whine, bitch about all others, then salute the results of Russian & Chinese vaccines the simple fact is a great many communities will be denied access to Russian or Chinese vaccines - that is a reality. Some of these states are in no shape to subscribe to the mRNA vaccines without 'aid' (i.e. ripoff loans) because their health budgets are still having to cover the double Tamiflu scam (they had to sign contracts to replace 'expired' Tamiflu stocks used or not after 3 years) and the more recent Remdesivir scam, all perpetrated by Gilead.

In the real world that means if the AstraZeneca vaccine is more than 60% efficacious (which is better than any flu vaccine - 95% is new big pharma BS IMO) and has no major side effects (one case of MS tells us nothing for the reason I outlined above), then it will be that or nothing for a sizeable slab of the world's population.

If everyone falls for big pharma's transparent attempt to stop this possible vaccine in its tracks, prior to testing completion, then that will mean no vaccine for billions of our fellow humans, so rather than joining in the big pharma sabotage, it makes better sense to consider that vaccine more objectively than de Noli, that Harvard minion of corporations seems to do.

Of course for some theoretical Marxist whose crazed ramblings remind me of the immature garbage one could hear around any Lisbon praça, circa 1975, that will mean little. As the humans of Mozambique, Angola and in particular since I lost friends there , Timor Leste, discovered to their cost.

I agree with the above.

Sure, AstraZeneca has not communicated well. They should have published their trial protocols. They should have been more explicit about their dosing 'mistake'. But the results of their trials are encouraging and the explanation for the higher efficacy with a lower first dose, see below, makes sense.

The AstraZeneca vaccine uses an adenovirus as 'vector' to deliver a DNA sequence that human cells then use to create one specific (but harmless) SARS-CoV-2 protein. The immune system will then learn to attack that protein. Afterwards it should be able to protect against SARS-CoV-2 infections.

There are 57 different adenovirusus that usually occur in humans. Most of us have been infected by some of them, likely in our youth, and have developed some grade of immunity against them. An adenovirus that has been modified to become a vaccine against SARS-CoV-2 may therefore be attacked by our immune system before it can achieve its purpose. We may have some 'vector immunity' against some of the adenovirus based vaccines.

In order to safeguard against cases where an already existing immunity to human adenoviruses may impede inoculation AstraZeneca is using a chimpanzee-originated version of an adenovirus as a vector. The Russian Sputnik V vaccine, hyped by Prof. de Noli on RT,  uses two doses with different human adenoviruses (Ad-26, Ad-5) as vectors to increase the chance of inoculation. Other vaccine developers, CanSino Biologics and Johnson & Johnson, are also using adenovirus vectors. Sinopharm's vaccine uses an inactivated SARS-CoV-2 virus.

AstraZeneca found by chance that its vaccine works best when the first dose is smaller than the second one. Vector immunity can explain why this is the case. A first high dose will create some immunity against the SARS-CoV-2 virus but also some immunity against the vector virus, the chimpanzee-originated adenovirus. When a first high dose has trained the immune system to fight the vector virus the second 'booster' vaccine dose using the same vector will become inefficient. A lower first dose can make sure that the second higher dose is not prematurely defeated by vector immunity but can still do its work.

The AstraZeneka vaccine was developed by Oxford University. It will be a no-profit vaccine as its development was financed by public money. The cost per dose will be below $3-4.

Both of the mRNA vaccines developed by Moderna and Pfizer are for-profit vaccines. They seem to be quite good (and no, they do not modify your DNA) but they will cost between $25 and $35 per shot. They also require an elaborate and expensive distribution chain as they can only be stored at very low temperatures. The adenovirus based vaccines can be stored in a normal refrigerator.

The mRNA vaccines hyped in the U.S. media are simply too expensive to be used around the world. If we want to limit the global effects of the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic we will have to use the cheaper vector based vaccines.

That the AstraZeneka vaccine was immediately attacked in U.S. media by an unqualified writer quoting an investment bank and the U.S. pharma promoting (Remdesivir!) Antony Fauci is quite suspicious. Pfizer and Moderna expect to make billions of dollars with their vaccines. They will use all possible ways and means to defeat any potential competition.

None of the results of the ongoing trials under discussion have so far been published in a peer reviewed format. We will have to wait until the end of the trials and the reviewed publication of the results to judge about their real efficacy and potential side effects.

Until then we should be careful not to fall for misinformation from big pharma interests. Nor should we fall for the nonsense from the anti-vaccine crowd.

So far all of the vaccines under discussion seem to be safe and efficient enough to defeat the pandemic. I for one see no reason to reject any of them.

Posted by b on November 27, 2020 at 11:18 UTC | Permalink

« previous page

@ Posted by: Vasco da Gama | Nov 28 2020 17:43 utc | 98

Hence PCRs alone not being used for a medical diagnosis. This is already known.

Again, I don't see the discord here. Those German tourists' defense used well the technicalities.

Posted by: vk | Nov 28 2020 18:04 utc | 101

@Shyaku 78

"one molecule (spike protein) only" ... Not quite that simple

Two potentially relevant questions and answers
(1) how does the mRNA enter the cell, which it must do for the protein to be generated?
(2) how does the protein present itself to the immune system, which it must do to generate immunity?

answers (according to CDC summary):
(1) there is another molecule attached to the mRNA, a "special coating" attached to the mRNA that tells human cells to bring in the foreign molecule
(2) the human cells which successfully receive the mRNA, become modified with the spike protein on the surface of the human cell membrane. (in contrast to the spike protein normally being on the outside of the virus particles!). There is indeed no modification to the human cell nucleus, so if the cells receiving the mRNA survive the process and their subsequent attack by the immune system, their offspring will not contain this DNA. The idea is that the immune system learns to attack any particles with the spike protein, but the difference in this vaccine vs others, is that the targets used to train the immune system are human cells bearing the spike protein.

Posted by: ptb | Nov 28 2020 18:15 utc | 102

Posted by: EoinW | Nov 28 2020 15:00 utc | 91
"That's the big red flag for me. If governments and media promoted healthy activities and diet to boost everyone's immune systems as much as they have been fearmongering then people would be taking vitamin D-3 and vitamin C, getting plenty of exercise, fresh air and sunshine. Plus not being stressed out by the endless media attacks on people's peace of mind. Stress is the worst thing for anyone's health!"

The lack of enthusiasm for natural remedies and prophylactics by our medical authorities is no surprise. The dollar signs are everywhere. My own anti covid plan includes all of the above as well as a weekly 25mg Zinc tablet and a bit of tonic water to go with it.

Posted by: Corkie | Nov 28 2020 18:28 utc | 104

You folks who dismiss the dangers of SarsCov-2 by mentioning only the fatality rate are either making a simple mistake or being a bit disingenuous. Fatality is not the only bad effect of the disease, at least not to date. I believe you're making the same error you accuse the promoters of the vaccines of doing. You're leaving significant issues out which might mitigate against your argument. I don't want to say you're doing so deliberately, but it amounts to the same thing. Really sounding like you know whereof you speak, being erudite and writing well and effectively, often you end up completely ignoring (at least potentially) important factors. Are these post-Covid severe health issues truly long-term or just short to medium term? IE, do they abate eventually? What percentage of those who contract Covid-19 end up with these very severe long-term health problems? Do we really even have a clear idea, yet? You advocate for all this caution with regard to promoting newly developed vaccines, then you're relatively blithely insist that Covid-19 isn't that big a deal, this while completely ignoring the "long-haul" issue. Until some stuff like that is discussed you can't really honestly suggest that Covid-19 only presents the danger of a bad flu or something like that. It ain't smallpox or bubonic plague, but it may well be something in-between. That would be pretty bad! We have to discuss that possibility.

Note that I don't begin to have enough knowledge to rate the effectiveness or danger of the various vaccines, so I have no informed opinion on them. I'm just saying I don't trust many writer's opinion on them after seeing them dismiss the general danger of Covid-19 without making what I would consider to be a fair assessment.

Posted by: jonboinAR | Nov 28 2020 18:50 utc | 105

some additional detail to the above @100

The "coating" of the mRNA is a lipid/cholesterol type complex. It was developed fairly recently, and solved a problem that made prior mRNA vaccines work poorly.

The mechanism by which the spike protein appears on the cell surface is part of the general-purpose immune system, whereby nearly all human cells have immune system proteins on their cell membranes, that take pieces of things inside the cell, and hold them up to the outside. The purpose is to present the pieces to be examined by various T-cells. This is routine. So the word "modified" in my previous comment may not be quite appropriate. Anyway, when something "new" shows up on the outside of the cell in this way, the immune system goes to work. First it must determine whether or not it is a false alarm, and simultaneously also whether or not it is something that it remembers from the past that it is a thing that's supposed to generate a major response. The details therein are the mystery.

This is not the only way mRNA vaccines can work. They can also cause the cells to secrete the protein that they're encoding. But it seems this particular vaccine relies on it being brought to the surface.

Anyway it'll be the first time this method has been used at large scale. If there is something more to be learned about the human immune system, maybe some of that will be learned now.

Posted by: ptb | Nov 28 2020 19:05 utc | 106

@ Posted by: Corkie | Nov 28 2020 18:28 utc | 103

Vitamin-D deficiency is only a societal problem in the Northern countries, and then only in the winter.

It doesn't explain why the COVID-19 is laying waste in the likes of Brazil and India.

Posted by: vk | Nov 28 2020 19:08 utc | 107

@ Posted by: ptb | Nov 28 2020 19:05 utc | 105

In theory, human cloning would've already be a reality decades ago.

In theory, we would've already have found the elixir of immortality (remember the antioxidant fever of the late 1990s-early 2000s?).

In theory, we would've already been transferring the human mind to a mainframe.

There's a reason biologic sciences are not considered a true member of the "hard sciences" in many countries (instead, it occupies a separate category, neither humanities nor exact). There's still too many unknown unknowns in it in comparison with chemistry, physics and mathematics (engineering).

Posted by: vk | Nov 28 2020 19:12 utc | 108

VK @ 107:

I should think that in Brazil and India, most people being infected with and suffering from SARS-CoV-2 live in conditions of extreme poverty with lack of adequate sanitation, malnutrition, and immunity systems overloaded with chronic disease and conditions including stress, among other things.

They may also be living in cities where air quality is bad and air pollution shuts out sunlight. Early outbreaks of COVID-19 in China, Iran and northern Italy occurred in cities and towns notorious for high levels of air pollution. My understanding is that cities in India also have high levels of air pollution. Parts of Brazil may have the same problem which may be conpounded by people or companies clearing forest in the Amazon basin regions by burning.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 28 2020 19:42 utc | 109

@vk 108

Sure there are tons of of unknowns, and much of what we know about the details of the immune system are recent discoveries. But I would strongly disagree with saying biology (or medicine) are not a hard science, which I take to mean that important results are impossible or impractical to prove in the way that can be done in physical sciences. I don't think that's true at all. Molecular biology in particular has made massive advances since genetic techniques have become commonplace in the past two decades.

That's all different from the tendency of pharma companies to overhype new products, misrepresent the state of knowledge, suppress research that would prove them wrong. They can behave very much like tobacco companies in that sense.

Posted by: ptb | Nov 28 2020 19:47 utc | 110


Hence PCRs alone not being used for a medical diagnosis. This is already known.

If this was true in my country (IT IS NOT), people would not have been prevented from going to work or carrying on with their life for "catching" Covid, businesses forcefully closed, entire regions restricted from free movement, because an individual PCR test or regional statistics as that was ALL that was required for that to happen. The opposite is the fact of the matter! PCRs alone are being valued for diagnostic purposes, in fact according to European norms themselves:

Laboratory criteria

Detection of SARS-CoV-2 nucleic acid in a clinical specimen [2]

Confirmed case: Any person meeting the laboratory criteria [see above]

I lived a time in my country where in order to be allowed in school, aside of up-to-date vaccination, one would require so called "micro", every student was required to deliver a copy upon entry. This consisted of a radiological image annexed with its clinical assessment. This was part of the tuberculosis tracing program. One may wonder what is impeding the use of these tried and tested means of diagnostic for the purposes that are meant to be used? We have the infrastructure in place including sophisticated mobile tracking units for lung disease prevention (some pretty recent)

Of the whole restrictions being imposed the only thing that was required was the result of a PCR test. PCRs test are not being used for diagnosis, of course, they only form the whole basis which severe governmental measures are being decided upon.

Posted by: Vasco da Gama | Nov 28 2020 19:51 utc | 111

@ Posted by: Vasco da Gama | Nov 28 2020 19:51 utc | 111

It is traditional in Western Democracies' constitutions to have a limitation of freedom clause in cases of war and natural calamities. It comes from the Roman times, when a dictator was elected to lead the Republic with totalitarian powers either through an existential war (e.g. Quintus Fabius Maximus Verrucosus/Cunctator against Carthage) or when a Consul died or renounced before his mandate, in order to organize the next elections.

I don't know which is the specific case of Portugal, but enforcing quarantines due to pandemics is well within the democratic tradition of the West.

Posted by: vk | Nov 28 2020 20:04 utc | 112

@ Posted by: ptb | Nov 28 2020 19:47 utc | 110

In many countries biological sciences is not considered hard sciences. This is not my opinion, just a simple fact.

As you said, just two decades. Just because you reached a breakthrough in two decades, it doesn't mean you already have the keys to the Universe.

The human body is much more complex than any machine any human engineer has ever created so far. It's not even close. Even rocket science pales in comparison to the human body. There are uncountable variables and chain reactions involved, most of them very complex. The human body makes any machine we've built so far look like a children's Lego kit. That's why surgeons are still very valued by their experience and number of surgeries, some of them being irreplaceable when they retire and/or die.

Just a simple example: blood transfusion. Just search on the internet for its history in the West. You'll quickly realize even the simplest medical operations involve a lot of variables.

Posted by: vk | Nov 28 2020 20:11 utc | 113

It is not the activation of the various degrees of State Exception that shocks me vk, it is the ease with which these exceptions tend to be adopted (look at France since 2015). The State of Exception is no walk in the park, exceptional reason and facts must be brought forward for it to be legitimated. The level and graveness of the measures imposed only equalled by the quality of the evidence that must be produced.

The initial precaution during the March "wave" provided some leeway for this science to be produced, but even if discovery cannot be imposed time constraints, there is a limit for any society to accommodate the unknowns of the disease against the certainties of the negative effects of the counter measures people can lend support to.

Posted by: Vasco da Gama | Nov 28 2020 20:28 utc | 114

@ Posted by: Vasco da Gama | Nov 28 2020 20:28 utc | 114

It's the first pandemic since 1918. The next pandemic will only happen in 2120 (approx.). Do the quarantine now and you'll have a hundred years of peace.

The liberals love to ride on the "Hundred Years Peace" (1814-1914) to claim both WWs were the fault of "totalitarianism" (e.g. Communism + Nazifascism), so I think another one will be a great deal to you.

Posted by: vk | Nov 28 2020 20:35 utc | 115

Greatly appreciate the discussion on this forum since such commentary/discussion has been shut down in major media sources. Resistance to poorly trialed vaccines is far from an antivax position. Broad and deep knowledge will be critical now that the Pfizer, Moderna and Astra Zeneca vaccines are rolling out. It is only in forums such as this one wherein the discussions of actual and potential adverse effects will be reviewed in some detail. Important when US effort lead by non independent CDC experts who opined that the vector for community transmission is not aerosol drops...

Posted by: Gehenna | Nov 28 2020 20:53 utc | 116

vk | Nov 28 2020 19:08 utc | 107

Jen put it best. People in Brasil and India do not have our quality of life, to say the least.

Case in point being the Black Death. The reason it so devastated Europe, unlike previous plagues, is because the continent was hit my a major cool down at the start of the 1300s. Farm land became less productive and the population faced a couple of generation of malnutrition. Combine the over population, due to several centuries of warm weather and expanding farm land, and the stage was set for a mass dying off.

The native Irish faced a similar problem in 1848. It was famine rather than plague which did the killing, however it was so bad because people had been living in extreme poverty.

We, in the northern hemisphere, certainly do not face anything like that. India and Brasil have over population and poverty.

Posted by: EoinW | Nov 28 2020 21:56 utc | 117

Vk @ 107

Wrong again. You seem plain hostile to good health.

Vitamin D deficiency is hardly only an issue in high latitudes in winter. Just for starters old people (which would be those who are dying) do not get enough sun, and old skin is less effective at making D. Those in long term care facilities rarely get sun at all. The numbers are overwhelming. Over 65 in years of age in US different studies/metrics give 70-85% of population as deficient. That is deficiency defined down to where what they really mean is enough D to prevent rickets. For African Americans over 65 some studies give 100%. Melanin pigmented skin makes less D.

Northern Europeans go to Spain for sun. In Spain the locals are deficient because pale skin is culturally valued and they stay out of sun. Similar all over the world. And modern life tends to be indoors. Outdoors smear on the sunscreen.

T-cells need readily available D to kill virus. The mechanism is well known and well known for a long time. We know how this works.

And what if it was the way you wish to have it? Most of the population is in northerly latitudes. D is stored for about two months. Winter is upon us. It is time to start taking D. Unless of course you want health to be given to you by a beneficent Socialist State and think that is the only health worth having.

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 28 2020 22:52 utc | 118

William Gruff @28:

I want our STEM students to be the best, so they can compete with the Chinese.

If you look up the European Union policy with regard to STEM studies, you will find that it is focused on one thing only: that the number of female STEM students has to increase.

Europe is obsessed with equality.

Posted by: passerby | Nov 28 2020 23:23 utc | 119

@67 librul Nothing in your statement suggests that mRNA can alter your DNA.


Suggesting that your gut fauna is extensive, and has its own DNA, and its own biochemistry is a masterly statement of the obvious.

It is akin to declaring that a giant tree in a rainforest will - of course - harbour a vast array of parasites, commensuals and assorted hangers-on. All of whom do their own thing.

Q: Does any of that change the DNA of the host tree?
A: No.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Nov 28 2020 23:43 utc | 120

I am going to go on a bit because no one seems to get this. vk won’t get it, he doesn’t want to.

Vitamin D comes from just three places. It can be had by exposing skin to sunlight. It can be had by supplement. It can be had in diet.

Dietary D has only three sources. Fish, cod liver oil, two varieties of mushroom, but only if they are sun dried. Nothing else has significant or close to significant levels of D. Japanese and Inuit might get enough D from diet alone, the rest of us do not.

Those of us who get D from the sun are a minority. Many reasons why most do not get enough sun. Fear of skin cancer. Hijab. Night work. The very common cultural desire for pale skin. Heavy schedules in a busy life, all activities indoors. The air outdoors is so bad no one wants to be there.

Sun does produce very large amounts of D. A few hours of just face, arms, legs could be 100,000 units. That D is stored and will be stored for two to three months. Even those of us who get a lot of sun need supplements in winter.

Another reason for deficiency. Obese people will park large amounts of what D they do get in fat deposits and it never makes it to bloodstream. The obese need lots of D.

It is difficult to impossible to overdose on D. Which is why a couple of times doing google searches at the top of a search page, in a banner, in a complete article before search results, there appears a horror tale about hypervitaminosis D. Which happens maybe once a year and is always someone who procured bulk concentrate and is taking 100 times more than they imagined they were. But the google lords want to scare you from being healthy. Using normally available supplements it would be difficult to take more than what is had by sun exposure. The Generally Recognized As Safe level (which means could never possibly hurt anyone in any circumstance) of 4000 units is enough to elevate blood levels to where it will do some good. A hundred times that level would have to be maintained for months and possibly years before harm would occur. A hundred times that level does occur for those who work outdoors. This is safe stuff. There is no reason not to.

Once deficiency is established it is not so easy to reverse. It might require high doses over time. The very fearful might want to take a blood level. But only the very fearful, it is a big project to cause harm with D. In the meantime deficiency takes hold and remains.

Being deficient on D means T-cells cannot do their job. Instead of being first line defense they become an infection vector. T-cells have the receptors the virus is looking for.

Not even going to begin on how D is an anticoagulant and anti-inflammatory.

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 28 2020 23:44 utc | 121

Crap! I put the same post up twice, 90 and 105. Sorry!

Posted by: jonboinAR | Nov 28 2020 23:53 utc | 122

@ Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 28 2020 23:44 utc | 121

I'm aware Vitamin-D deficiency is very bad, that it raises your chance of dying from COVID-19 etc. etc.

What I don't agree is that the absence of Vitamin-D deficiency is a treatment to COVID-19 or even a cure, as you and others have been suggesting for months now.

All vitamin deficiencies should be treated immediately, anywhere, any circumstance, against almost any disease for the simple fact stronger organism have, most of the time, better chances to fight off diseases. But that's a universal truth of medicine, not a miracle finding from COVID-19 investigation.

Posted by: vk | Nov 29 2020 1:07 utc | 123

@ Posted by: Jen | Nov 28 2020 19:42 utc | 109

But then you're just arguing the obvious: any kind of vitamin deficiency is bad for the organism; it just makes your vulnerable overall, not just to COVID-19. I agree with this statement, just don't see the point.

Posted by: vk | Nov 29 2020 1:24 utc | 124

There’s a Marxist out there who is biting his tongue, despite posting rational and educated info on the subject.
This blog is teetering on the brink.

Posted by: Cadence calls | Nov 29 2020 1:38 utc | 125

William Gruff @28:

I want our STEM students to be the best, so they can compete with the Chinese.

Cadence calls @125:

There’s a Marxist out there who is biting his tongue, despite posting rational and educated info on the subject.
why aren't people more rational??? why doesn't the fact that covering one's mouth hinders cold and flu transmission influence people's understanding of a different but not exactly virus? it's a fact that covering one's mouth helps. there's no dispute whatsoever.

all that STEM study is not going to keep an MD neuroradiologist from running his pearly white filthy mouth for Trump, Pfizer, etc. He knows far more about biology et al than 99% of the planet, incl most certainly me. and fuck him, stem, twig, branch, root, leaf, fruit.

what the hell does a Marxist know about human psychology? he thinks knowing a fact changes behavior, shown by his disappointment that knowing a fact doesn't per se mean a damn thing. class analysis certainly helps, people acting like sheep, but the fetishizing of knowledge that Marxists do is puerile. what to expect from a Platonist but prostration before "temples of "knowledge""?

Posted by: jason | Nov 29 2020 2:08 utc | 126

i've been dropping in on this blog regularly for several years now. the older commentators are great, even if not always right, even if some of them are full of it, largely. the smackdowns to nonsense are themselves usually worth considering.

overall mortality rates among certain populations are affected by multiple factors. Youth mortality in the US is dominated by two things: car crashes and suicides. Due to the shutdown, one of those has gone down, one has gone up. but diabetes is going nowhere but up. so is mis-prescription of antibiotics. welcome to the chicken of tomorrow, today. the social isolation of so many in the US only gets worse during winter. how about during this outbreak? social isolation may not be such a problem in a society that doesn't consult the oracle at Google before deciding if sunshine is good or bad.

think economic blockades affect morbidity? competition for resources, like vaccines and oxygen? etc., etc.

the dead don't mean anything. all the unnecessary dead don't mean anything, b/c of some BS stats. like covid, what goes around comes around. Hamlet saw through the bullshit b/c of the 'maimed rites' and his new unwanted dad's ability to rationalize murder as "nature's theme, from first to last." so did Antigone. no happy city worth dying for was ever built on female grief, right Pericles?

"we raise our boys to be killers and then, like a pussy needing to be grabbed, we prosecute them. I'm here to grab that pussy!"

Posted by: jason | Nov 29 2020 2:40 utc | 127

A DNA-based vaccine must enter the nucleus of a cell when it’s dividing – the only time when the nuclear membrane falls away. - DNA Science. It's not clear me if this is true of a adenovirus vector vaccine. I haven't been able to determine what genetic material they are delivering mRMA or DNA If DNA then they do enter the nucleus as they must be made into RNA to produce a protein. Obviously DNA vaccines enter the nucleus. Another question is why if the COV SARS 2 protein is made in the cell by mRNA vaccine instruction, how does the immune system recognize this as an antigen when a human cell produces it?

Posted by: gepay | Nov 29 2020 2:55 utc | 128

re vk # 93 who once more demonstrated his/her complete inability to get the point when he/she wrote "AstraZeneca is not the only member of COVAX. COVAX is WHO initiative that aims to produce 2 billion vaccines at USD 3.00 per dose, but it doesn't mean all of the 2 billion doses will be AstraZeneca."
At no point did I or anyone in the links claim that the astra zeneca vaccine would be the only $3 vaccine put out by Covax, the point is they are the first reasonably priced vaccine to get close to testing completion and immediately they announced their interim results, which were no less complete than moderna or pfizer, they didn't cop the same media fanfare, they were subjected to a storm of negative publicity by wall st and 'experts' under the thumb of big pharma.

I have no doubt that when other Covax members publish their results, they too will cop a big sledge.

I realise the sort of drongos who walk out of colonies for their own sake rather than the colonised, leaving the former colonies completely unequipped to protect themselves from invasion, murder and resource theft by apartheid south africa, indonesia and australia, prefer to consider human behaviour as some sort of theoretical science, where the results on the blackboard or in the thesis are much more meaningful to them than what actually occurs but those of us who prefer to consider the effects of the 'west' on actual real human beings, know that since it was created by the UN and the usual dodgy philanthro-billionaires, Covax has spent hundreds of millions of dollars on building vaccine production lines close to the likely point of need in Africa and Asia. If any of these less ripoff vaccines pass peer reviewed testing, they are going to be the only option on offer to protect a big chunk of humanity.

Yet VK and others expend all this energy repeating the nonsense claims of 'venture capital' investors; giving succour to the elite arseholes, who are conspiring to keep lower priced vaccines 'out of the market' without a shred of hard evidence to support their wild accusations.

Why not back off and push for all of them to be objectively assessed instead of repeating what are anecdotal claims about astra zeneca and neurological side effects. As I said right at the start of this one trial participant was diagnosed with MS. MS usually takes years to become diagnosable, so the odds are high that this person's condition was unrelated to being a trial subject. Of course that cannot be enough so it has been and continues to be investigated. The trial was halted, the facts established and since then test subjects have been intensively screened to ascertain if there is any similar nerve sheath damage in other test subjects - thus far there has not been. We cannot be certain until the trial is peer reviewed & published which astra zeneca says is only days away.

The vast majority of vaccines are going to be manufactured by capitalist corporations, I do not detect eagerness to rise up at start a revolution across the world unfortunately, so that is how it will go.
Whether or not people take a vaccine is entirely up to them, but billions will go for the vaccine - we know this from history.

For me, I would much rather that happen without most of the people in the world finding themselves in even deeper hock than they already were. Yeah sure, the philanthro-billionaires have an ulterior motive, to try to put a smiley face on their evil, it doesn't fool anyone any longer and for me, them playing their pointless farce is an acceptable trade off for either tens of millions of humans dying or the arseholes getting even richer and more powerful at the expense of the rest of the world.

Theoreticians lost up their own arseholes may consider that loss of life acceptable, I've long given up wondering WTF such types think. They're never found at the pointy end anyhow.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 29 2020 3:06 utc | 129

those are the appropriate questions. see #106 and #102 above.
no DNA. no cell nucleus.

Posted by: ptb | Nov 29 2020 5:45 utc | 130

@ Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 29 2020 3:06 utc | 129

In the capitalist context as a whole, there is pressure on big pharma to keep prices of the vaccines as low as possible. This is why COVAX exists.

But, from the point of view of Big Pharma, there must be no hesitation: they want to wipe out competition (for lines of production), monopolize the market, charge exorbitant monopoly prices (which are only possible in "disaster capitalism" cases) and use this super-profits to swallow other sectors of the capitalist economy as fast as possible, while the pandemic lasts (a la Amazon, which is swallowing the First World's petite-bourgeoisie's market share as they finally go bankrupt).

The other big businesses from other sectors, for obvious reasons, don't want Big Pharma to reach their objectives. They want to be the ones to absorb Big Pharma and not vice-versa. It's big business vs big business we're talking about.

Hence we have a double movement: on one side, Big Pharma is trying to negotiate separately with each government and each manufacturer, in order to gobble up the sector piece by piece in order to form monopoly prices; on the other side, there's Big Business from the other sectors of the economy, who are pressuring global governance (WHO, UN) to make some for of centralized production, in order to keep the prices at the nearest of the price of cost.

Posted by: vk | Nov 29 2020 13:20 utc | 131

The claim that AstraZeneca's vaccine, or any vaccine, will be available for only $3 is a sad joke. It's also fake news, to a large degree.

Yes, there's a nice philantrophic agreement about a $3 vaccine under the COMAX procurement. But that's for poor countries (92 of those), and covers "up to 100 million doses". Now read please, it means no more than 100 million, and possibly less. That's immunity for 50 million people at the maximum, in the poor parts of the world with billions of inhabitants. What's more, the $3 under this agreement have been made possible by sponsoring only.

In the real world, where costs have to be covered, none of the new vaccines will be available for less than $10 per dose. That's $20 per treatment regimen.

Even with pooled procurement like under the COMAX program, the required downpayment of 15% is $1.60. This means $10.66 is their envisaged total.

The glorious WHO declares a pandemic and next thing I know, there's a gold rush going on!

Posted by: Scotch Bingeington | Nov 29 2020 15:39 utc | 132

oldhippie | Nov 28 2020 23:44 utc | 121

Thank you, great post!
The real headache with CoV-2 seems to be that it is a surprisingly mild flu-like infection with the diabolic property that people with a shaky volatile immune system can get this cytokin storm which means life danger.
The only way to check out whether the own immune system is volatile or not is to measure the vitamin D3 content in the blood. As we measure here normally a substance derived from the depot and not the active form 1,25-(OH)2 -Vit. D results are not easy to interprete. There is no consensus in the scientific community about the right level. After chewing all studies that I could digest it seems so that a level below 40 ng/ml is critical.
In Germany many doctors apparently do not know that supplementing Vitamin D3 affords to also supplement Vitamin K2mk7 all-trans, magnesium, omega-3-fatty acids and in case of an infective environment may be some zinc and selen.
We have a brillantly done Big Pharma propaganda film against the use of Vitamin D3 on YouTube: - the lady is wife of a Pharma-CEO and comes up with the insame claim: scientifically checked. No chance for uneducated people to find out how the cheat was done.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Nov 29 2020 15:48 utc | 133

VK @ 124:

I noticed your trolling @ 107 of Corkie @ 104 with the non sequitur about Brazil and India being hit hard by COVID-19 despite these countries supposedly having climates where Vitamin D deficiency should not be a problem. So I trolled you by pointing out that the prevalence of COVID-19 in these nations is taking place in conditions where most people's health is already compromised by poverty, lack of access to decent healthcare services, overcrowding in slums, general malnutrition, poor sanitation, stress and air pollution which blocks out sunlight and adds aerosols to the air, all of which are significant for the spread of the disease.

The issue that Debsisdead made in his or her original comment is that many people, communities, even entire nations will not have the choice of the best vaccines, or those with the least side effects and dangers, simply because governments will decide (or have their arms twisted by the US or UK or others to decide) to obtain only a few select Big Pharma vaccines. Some vulnerable communities, like First Nations communities, may be forced to become guinea pigs for particular vaccines or have essential services denied to them. This is what Debsisdead is asking us all to consider.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 29 2020 19:37 utc | 134

oldhippie | Nov 28 2020 23:44 utc | 121

Thank you, great post!
The real headache with CoV-2 seems to be that it is a surprisingly mild flu-like infection with the diabolic property that people with a shaky volatile immune system can get this cytokin storm which means life danger.
The only way to check out whether the own immune system is volatile or not is to measure the vitamin D3 content in the blood. As we measure here normally a substance derived from the depot and not the active form 1,25-(OH)2 -Vit. D results are not easy to interprete. There is no consensus in the scientific community about the right level. After chewing all studies that I could digest it seems so that a level below 40 ng/ml is critical.
In Germany many doctors apparently do not know that supplementing Vitamin D3 affords to also supplement Vitamin K2mk7 all-trans, magnesium, omega-3-fatty acids and in case of an infective environment may be some zinc and selen.
We have a brillantly done Big Pharma propaganda film against the use of Vitamin D3 on YouTube: - the lady is wife of a Pharma-CEO and comes up with the insame claim: scientifically checked. No chance for uneducated people to find out how the cheat was done.

Headache | Nov 29 2020 10:07 utc | 131

The Drosten team cooked this test on 11.1.2020. In a Berlin hospital they took
samples from 297 patients and checked this test against their new CoV-2 test.
This they called „validation“. In software development we would call it
„quick-and-dirty“. A paper was made and given to Eurosurveillance on 21.2., the
next day it was accepted without (!) peer review which takes weeks, normally.
On 23.3. the paper was published. „Validation“ done. Drosten is co-editor of
Eurosurveillance. So in reality the check of the test was done by the
inventor/seller of the test. Great neoliberal-postdemocratic style of doing
A person from Drosten's team is a member of the firm that sells the tests.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Nov 29 2020 21:13 utc | 135

@ Posted by: Jen | Nov 29 2020 19:37 utc | 135

Poor sanitation, overcrowding etc. etc. only explain the number of cases, not the death rates.

Sure, you could posit those factor increase initial viral load - but then the main factor in discussion here would be initial viral load, not Vitamin-D deficiency.

Good healthcare systems explain lower or higher mortality rates, but they do so by themselves - you don't need to posit Vitamin-D deficiency to call that one.

So, long story short: you would have to isolate both the initial viral load and the healthcare system capacity and quality before you even begin to speculate about Vitamin-D deficiency.

One thing is certain: normal Vitamin-D levels don't offset initial viral load and poor healthcare systems - as the examples of Brazil and India indicate. Vitamin-D deficiency is a terrible thing that should always be treated - but it is not a treatment for COVID-19 in the strict sense.

Posted by: vk | Nov 29 2020 23:28 utc | 136

Jen | Nov 29 2020 19:37 utc | 135

„I noticed your trolling @ 107 of Corkie @ 104 with the non sequitur about Brazil and India being hit hard by COVID-19 despite these countries supposedly having climates where Vitamin D deficiency should not be a problem. So I trolled you by pointing out that the prevalence of COVID-19 in these nations is taking place in conditions where most people's health is already compromised by poverty,...“
Apparently there is a misunderstanding. Yes, sun enhances Vitamin D3 which is the main controlling agent of the entire immune system. But Vitamin D3 does not make us immune under all circumstances. If one has a severe infection it may well damage the immune system to a big extent - and after that event the D3 levels remain low, in spite of enough sun.
There are old data from Iran looking for the correlation of Vitamin D3 and sepsis. It is astonishing how many people there had very low level of D3 - in Iran! I have data of people that work half a day in Southern Turkey on the fields, with prior illnesses showing a weak immune system: levels under 20 ng/ml. Much more research to be done about it.
As of today my personal take is this:
to measure the D3 leven is the only existing tool today to estimate the status of the own immune system prior to any potential CoV-2 infection. If the level is below 40 ng/ml one should do something. If one supplements D3 one should never forget to take Vitamin K2mk7 all-trans as well, some magnesium citrate, some omega-3-fatty acids - and who is nervous should let the doctor supervise it.
(I still like MoA. But the coverage of CoV-2 is one big disappointment! Wrong consultanccy)

Posted by: Hausmeister | Nov 30 2020 10:21 utc | 137

I am bookmarking and archiving this comment thread.

I respect science and sincere, devotional research greatly.
I do not respect profit motive and ego quite as much.

It is not an extravagant intellectual reach to ascertain the shady opportunism implicit in COVID-19's vaccination campaign.

Posted by: Snowgrass | Dec 6 2020 17:02 utc | 138

"For The First Time, A US State Will Require Disclosure Of PCR 'Cycle Threshold' Data In COVID Tests"

Finally [perhaps] some cogent truth of the misuse of the PCR technique as a diagnostic test for COVID-19 is becoming public knowledge, as the "other" experts are being listened seen today on that Zerohedge headline

PCR was invented by Kary Mullis as a valuable tool to identify and make copies of DNA fragments. He specifically warned that its use as a diagnostic tool was seriously limited...and apparently was not listened to.

Brings to mind Alfred Binet, who created a test for spotting children in France with learning handicaps during their early school years, who then could receive special attention to overcome many such disabilities. His "test" was misused in the USA as an "intelligence test" and he warned that it could not possibly be used to measure "intelligence" because [among other things], the criteria involved to measure "intelligence" were so varied and unclearly known that , for example, assigning a mere number for "intelligence" was total folly. Of course, he too was not listened to!

Posted by: chu teh | Dec 6 2020 17:48 utc | 139

Zarif´s response to German FM Maas statements related to the "new rules" on JCPOA he previously compromised to fulfill when it was signed and some facts on who is being armed to the teeth in the Middle East so as to be made sole military power there..

Thus, in the end, Trump was neccessary for all these elements to do their dirty work, and so all that pretended disgust with him from Europe was only theather after all...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Dec 6 2020 17:57 utc | 140

This is an HREF test:
...that Zerohedge headline

Posted by: chu teh | Dec 6 2020 17:59 utc | 141

« previous page

The comments to this entry are closed.