Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 06, 2020

Progressive Initiatives Win While Dems Continue To Lose

I am getting a bit stuffed from all that popcorn.

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But hey, they found another bag of 'mailed in' ballots.

Mark Niesse @markniesse - 9:20 UTC · 6 Nov 2020

Biden has taken the lead in Georgia for the first time. He is ahead of Trump by 917 votes after more results were reported in Clayton County.

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This line in a Washington Post report, filed from Taipei, Taiwan, is the most condescending I have seen in a while. What evidence does the writer have to back up that claim?

As the United States tallied votes in a presidential election that appears headed for a court battle and fractious final phase, Chinese commentators and state mouthpieces this week lined up to portray the cross-Pacific superpower — viewed with awe and envy by generations of Chinese — as a politically crumbling edifice in 2020.
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Scott Ritter is unfortunately right:

In the end, the future of the United States and, in many ways, the rest of the world, will be decided not by the American voter, but a much more nefarious form of life – the American lawyer.

Yves Smith diagnoses the Democrats' disease:

Democratic Party insiders are already deploying their blame cannons, and the progressive wing of the party is a big target. One of the big complaints of corporate Democrats who did or nearly lost their seats is that they were smeared as “socialists” in attack ads.
...
The Democrats need to quit running from socialism and start explaining that America already practices socialism for the rich (with examples) and maybe it’s time for socialism for ordinary people (with examples). But the problem is that the Dems are culpable of promoting socialism for the rich, as exemplified by the “no accountability” bank bailouts and the reluctance to address student debt and ever-rising health care costs.
...
At the same time, as readers know well, there are boatloads of “progressive” policies that are very popular with voters, like raising the minimum wage, strengthening Social Security, providing for more income support during lockdowns, getting rid of the ACA and replacing it with government-provided insurance, and cutting military spending. And if 2016 and 2020 demonstrated anything, it’s that the Democrats aren’t benefitting from being joined at the hip with big corporations and billionaires. Bloomberg spent $100 million on the party’s behalf, for instance, yet what difference did that make?

So the Democrats institutionally could break away from the grip of corporate big money, but too many pols and operatives are in their vise for that to happen. It will take at least another epic failure for them to be rooted out. And in the meantime, the scapegoating will continue.

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The results in Florida seem to confirm that take:

@TravisMenard00 - 3:13 UTC · Nov 6, 2020

Bernie Sanders: "We need a federal minimum wage of at least $15/hr."

Joe Biden: "I beat the Socialist!"

Florida: *Votes for $15 statewide minimum wage, and *not* Joe Biden*

Posted by b on November 6, 2020 at 10:45 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 7 2020 1:57 utc | 193

I'm sure you and others have covered it before, but you left out COVID-19. The demographic line dividing which Americans take it seriously and which largely don't overlaps almost exactly with the one between the Democrats and the Republicans. Poll after poll show this, and since it matches exactly the reality I observe every day from my "conservative" vs. "liberal" family and acquaintances, the polling numbers pass the eye test. Hence, this year there were going to be a lot more Democrats absentee voting in one form or another. Trump and the Republicans knew this too and they took measures (including what Governor Abbott did in your Texas link) to make that kind of voting more difficult. Trump was quoted not long ago at one of his rallies or something saying that "we can't mail-in voting or a Republican would never win again." or similar. As I've said before, it's accepted Republican party doctrine that they need as few voters to cast ballots as possible and that's why they have such a long history of various types of vote/voter suppression. The Democrats don't care how many people vote when they're running in general elections; but they sure as hell also try to suppress votes/voters in primary elections using similar tricks to exclude POC and poor folks. As you laid out, they have no reason to do so in Presidential or Congressional elections when they're running against Republicans, hence they want as many people as possible to vote.

But back to 2020, Trump and the Republicans did all sorts of things to throw up roadblocks to absentee/mail-in voting precisely because they knew it would lean heavily Democrat. And they prepared litigation in advance to deploy immediately in counties and states where there was a high likelihood of strong Democrat turnout ALONG with delayed counts due to all of the aforementioned reasons.

Soooo....

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 2:18 utc | 201

@ J W

One of the reasons for voting for Trump was accelerating the collapse of the system.

Since now that internal route (Trump) has been delayed, it's time we take the external route.

Posted by: Smith | Nov 7 2020 2:19 utc | 202

@ Posted by: Featherless | Nov 7 2020 1:45 utc | 189

Redundancy sometimes works bee-pollination wonders ?

Posted by: suzan | Nov 7 2020 2:20 utc | 203

Oh, and I'm getting sick and tired of Trump's mama's boys coming here and waving assertions around without a single link to anything other than a pro-Trump Web site for their assertions.

Provide a link to an authoritative source for your BS or GTFO.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Nov 7 2020 2:21 utc | 204

I think this piece fits well with the topic:

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/game-coup

National polls consistently predicted a huge Biden blowout. That they were wrong (again) is demonstrated by the facts that (a) the 2020 popular vote is, so far (California is not fully counted), a mere two-point spread, hardly a blowout; (b) Trump got a higher share of the vote than last time; and (C) Trump received far more total votes than last time.

But it’s the swing states that matter. Here (again) Trump was supposed to lose - if not necessarily bigly in every case, at least widely.

But throughout election day, the president consistently outperformed the polls. He crushed his 2016 performance in Florida. He also outperformed in Iowa, Ohio, South Carolina, and Texas. Senators he was supposed to drag down with him, including Joni Ernst, Lindsey Graham, and Mitch McConnell, won handily. Even Susan Collins, who was supposed to be sure goner and lose by at least three, won by nine. A party that was “certain” to lose the Senate has kept it and gained (so far) six seats in the House.

Looking at states no one expected Trump to lose, his overperformance is even more stark. The polling average for West Virginia was Trump +17; he won it by 39. Kansas was estimated at +9; the result was +15.

Throughout the day the president was also outperforming his expected result in key states such as Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. He even, for a time, looked like he was within striking distance in Virginia, a state Hillary Clinton won by five points in 2016. At one point the New York Times’s “meter” had Trump’s chances in North Carolina at 92%. The needle was also sliding in the president’s direction in Arizona and Georgia, among others.

And then, suddenly, the counting stopped in at least five states (or parts of states): Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin; all but one with a Democratic governor (coincidence, surely!). When has that ever happened? Well, it happened in Broward County, Florida, in 2018, when a dodgy Democratic election official appeared to be intervening, illicitly, on her party’s behalf. The process only got back underway when the state’s (Republican) governor intervened and had her removed from the process.

Posted by: gm | Nov 7 2020 2:22 utc | 205

@ Grieved | Nov 7 2020 2:15 utc | 197... i think the screen problem is for people reading off an iphone or smaller screen.. i don't have the problem either... but as a community member i try to make it work for everyone by using the code and previewing the post to make sure i haven't screwed up.. i suppose everyone has to decide for themselves what being a community member is... i appreciate uncle tungstens posts and comments and i don't take any of it personally... accidents happen..

Posted by: james | Nov 7 2020 2:25 utc | 206

Many Chinese See Trump Win as the Most Favorable Outcome for China

Because they're generally a lot smarter over there than in the US of A, where I guarantee you that more than 75% of Trump voters would assume the opposite. Trump's trade policies are failing Americans, they are not bringing back jobs, they are weakening the US of A's position globally as well as hastening the downfall of the almighty dollar/petrodollar.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 2:26 utc | 207

karlof1 #191

There remain those who cannot bring themselves to identify with the great mass of humanity, who imagine themselves somehow better.

Thank you and these are the elite who, like moths, fly into the candle flame trap set out by the Wexner/Epstein/Maxwell foreign agents and their media net. Forever after to be 'managed' - 'influenced' thanks to those thousands of photographs and column inches in the glossy magazines.

The fools.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 7 2020 2:29 utc | 208

The vote count is the single hardest part of an election to rig. Every other part of the process is much easier to sabotage or control by a central authority.

Did they rig the vote count in this case? Maybe, maybe not. But the fact that our elections are otherwise a joke is beyond dispute.

Posted by: Timothy Hagios | Nov 7 2020 2:33 utc | 209

From FiveThirtyEight:

Nathaniel Rakich Nov. 6, 6:21 pm
Among other places (Clark County, Nevada, and Maricopa County, Arizona), we’ll be getting more results tonight from Allegheny County, Pennsylvania — home of Pittsburgh. Allegheny has about 35,000 absentee ballots left to sift through (plus an unknown number of provisional ballots). Election workers today remedied 3,000 of those ballots that were damaged, and they are currently processing 3,873 overseas ballots. They hope to report these two batches by 6:30 p.m. After that, they will turn to the remaining 29,000 ballots, which a court ordered set aside until today because they were cast by people who were initially mailed the incorrect ballot, then mailed a replacement. Poll workers must go through each of these ballots to ensure that each voter only casts one ballot. Allegheny County officials say it will probably take a few days to get through this batch, so Pennsylvania counting isn’t ending tonight.

Maya Sweedler Nov. 6, 8:26 pm
Quick turnaround from the Supreme Court, which has just granted the Pennsylvania GOP’s request to instruct county election boards to segregate mail-in ballots that arrived after Election Day. This order was probably made easier by the fact that, as Amelia noted earlier, the Pennsylvania secretary of state had already directed counties to do this. In his order, Justice Samuel Alito did not order counties to stop counting these ballots, which was also part of the initial request this afternoon. Pennsylvania’s secretary of state has said that there aren’t enough of these late-arriving ballots to affect the final outcome of the presidential race in Pennsylvania.

There's also a long post about approximate 100,000 "provisional ballots" in Pennsylvania I encourage people to read over at FiveThirtyEight. I won't reproduce that here, but the tl;dr is that it's unlikely to change Biden's lead.

Geoffrey Skelley Nov. 6, 9:03 pm
Our partners at ABC News have learned that Philadelphia will have no further updates on its vote totals tonight. This may essentially eliminate any realistic chance of a race projection in Pennsylvania tonight because Philadelphia is the most Democratic-leaning area in the state, and a vote dump of some size from there could expand the margin to a point where it would be very difficult for Trump to overcome Biden’s statewide lead. As things stand, Biden leads by about 21,700 votes, or 0.32 percentage points, with fewer than 100,000 mail ballots and around 100,000 provisional ballots left to count.

Nathaniel Rakich Nov. 6, 9:10 pm
We now estimate there are about 171,000 ballots left to be counted in Arizona; if so, Trump would need to win 59 percent of them to overtake Biden.

Nathaniel Rakich Nov. 6, 9:09 pm
We just got more than 70,000 votes in Maricopa County, Arizona, and Trump won them just 53 percent to 44 percent. That’s well behind the pace of about 58 percent that Trump needed to maintain in order to eventually take the lead in the state. A big blow to Trump’s chances here.

71,932 ballots dropped from Maricopa

Biden: 31,433 (43.6%)
Trump: 38,388 (53.4%)

— The AZ – abc15 – Data Guru (@Garrett_Archer) November 7, 2020

Nate Silver Nov. 6, 9:14 pm
We’ve been in limbo in Arizona. Trump has kind of been losing altitude, not hitting the percentages he needs to overcome Biden’s lead in the state, but also not putting himself so far out of the running that you’d necessarily feel comfortable calling the race. The estimates of how many ballots are still waiting to be counted also tend to be a bit squishy in Arizona.

RSH Take: Trump isn't going to flip Arizona. That means Biden keeps those 11 Electoral Votes - which he doesn't need anyway because he has Pennsylvania.

Read my lips again, Trump mama's boys. You lose. There isn't going to be any "upset" anywhere, whatever minimal examples of "vote fraud" or other incompetence gets revealed over the next two months. The Supreme Court is not going to overturn the election in your favor. You're reduced to going out into the streets and rioting.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Nov 7 2020 2:33 utc | 210

Grieved #197

Thank you for the spirit balm. I will shout myself a glass of shiraz in an hour or so.

The trees whispered sounds of delight at the magnificent planet and its juicy soil and were grateful for the mulch and ferilisers even though it was the same old shit:))

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 7 2020 2:36 utc | 211

Posted by: gm | Nov 7 2020 2:22 utc | 203

I know, I know I said no more on this unless something insane happens, but this speculation stuff has to stop. Until there is hard evidence of some sort of fraud, simply picking out statistics that appear to tell some sort of nefarious story - only negative for Trump, is getting really old.

I did something I rarely do anymore and waded into the Zero Hedge cesspool (there was a time when they occasionally put up good stuff) to see this article for myself. Generally in 2020 you expect to see built in hyperlinks when a claim is made, or at least a source named. Literally the entire excerpt you posted is devoid of any such links. Without them, it's reduced to pure weasel wording.

* National polls consistently predicted a huge Biden blowout. - No polls named or linked, I don't recall seeing a single poll that predicted Biden would win by any more than Hillary did nationally, which was by a few million votes, but probably not what these guys would consider a blowout.

* But throughout election day, the president consistently outperformed the polls. He crushed his 2016 performance in Florida. - Exactly as was expected and which many, many people said would happen. We already knew that Democrats were mailing in their ballots in record numbers, hence their votes had not been counted at any point until all the polls had closed. Therefore, any election day polling would lean heavily in Trump's favor.

* Looking at states no one expected Trump to lose, his overperformance is even more stark. The polling average for West Virginia was Trump +17; he won it by 39. Kansas was estimated at +9; the result was +15.

First of all we already know the polls are inaccurate. Secondly, the legendary "silent majority" voter that Trump's base consistently talks about likely didn't respond honestly or at all to pollsters. Which makes even more sense because, as stated, those were states where Trump was expected (I would ASSURED) to win. More Trump voters = more silent majority / dishonest answers on polls.

The rest of it is just more of the same nonsense. Again, with the large number of mail-in ballots already expected to be Democrat, any election day exit polling was going to produce results skewed toward Trump and Republicans. More Trump voters voted in-person! It's so simple I almost can't believe I have to explain it.


* And then, suddenly, the counting stopped in at least five states (or parts of states): Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin; all but one with a Democratic governor (coincidence, surely!). When has that ever happened?

Completely mischaracterizing the situation, but given everything else above, who cares anymore. That article is bunk.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 2:38 utc | 212

Posted by: gm | Nov 7 2020 2:22 utc | 203

Zerohedge dredges up the nonsense. "Throughout the day the president was also outperforming his expected result..."

Because they were counting his supporters in-person ballots. Once they started the avalanche of Democratic mail-in ballots, he lost his lead. It's that simple. It was predicted in advance. It happened.

Also:

Trump Misleadingly Claims That Ballot Count Was ‘Called Off’


But Richard Hasen, a law and political science professor at the University of California, Irvine and a nationally recognized election law expert, told us there was nothing unusual about stopping the counting as the hour grows late.

“Election officials are working very hard to get counting of ballots done expeditiously in the midst of a pandemic and an historic election,” he told us via email. “Even election workers need to sleep.”

Except in Philadelphia, where election workers stayed up all night.

“We’re doing everything we can to get it done as soon as possible, but we’ll be working 24 hours — through the night — to get it done,” Lisa Deeley, the chairwoman of the Philadelphia City Commissioners, told NPR.

But that is hardly business as usual.
“I had never heard of 24-hour counting until Philadelphia this year,” Hasen said.
For example, Georgia and Nevada stopped counting and picked up Wednesday.
Asked if he had any concerns about the overall pace of the vote count across the nation, Hasen said, “No. I think they are doing the best they can under difficult circumstances.”

Battleground states did not ‘stop counting’ votes on election night when Trump was ahead


So we decided to take a closer look at whether the states cited in the Facebook post did stop counting ballots overnight on Nov. 3. The short answer is: They didn’t.

Election officials in Fulton County, Ga., briefly paused counting ballots after a pipe burst at a facility in Atlanta. North Carolina stopped counting in-person votes once 100% of precincts were reported.

But none of the states stopped counting votes altogether — and there’s no evidence they tried to swing the results in favor of Biden.

In three states cited in the Facebook post — Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin — election officials were not allowed to start tabulating mail-in ballots until Election Day or just before. That resulted in reporting delays overnight on Nov. 3, since mail ballots take more time to count than in-person votes.

"At no point has the counting process stopped since it began at 7 a.m. yesterday morning, which was when, per Michigan election law, it could begin," said Tracy Wimmer, director of media relations for Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson, referring to the morning of Nov. 3....

The only state that stopped counting votes overnight on Nov. 3 was North Carolina — but that doesn’t mean it’s done counting votes, and the halt had nothing to do with Trump being ahead in the state. "North Carolina stopped counting votes on election night because there were no more votes to count at that time," said Patrick Gannon, public information director for the state Board of Elections.

So what we have here is a bunch of fact-less assertions by Trump mama's boys on Facebook and the rest of social media which have become "accepted facts" despite having nothing behind them but assertions from their Savior. So we can see who the Trump mama's boys are here. Looking at you, gm.

Suck it up. You lost.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Nov 7 2020 2:43 utc | 213

@ Posted by: Grieved | Nov 7 2020 2:15 utc | 197

So, dear Grieved, whom I admire in all your eloquent, intelligent and spirited posting, how does one avoid this inconvenience of having pages subverted by a too-long link?

Posted by: suzan | Nov 7 2020 2:44 utc | 214

Ah, damn it, screwed up the HREF terminator again...

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Nov 7 2020 2:46 utc | 215

@Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 2:38 utc | 210

Well perhaps you grew fatigued. Let me excerpt a bit more:

But getting back to election night, some time in the wee hours, additional ballots were “found” and added to early totals which had Trump ahead. To no one’s surprise, those votes were overwhelmingly—literally as much as 100% in some batches—for Biden. According to Nate Silver, no one’s idea of a Trumpist, one tranche of 23,277 votes that turned up in Philadelphia were “all for Biden.” Absent some kind of harvesting or fraud (or both), that’s a logical and statistical impossibility.


Through the night, all such ballots came from heavily Democratic areas posting unusually, improbably high turnout. 85% in Milwaukee? A city that turned out at only 61% in 2016, and even with Obama on the ballot in 2012, at 71%? But 85% for Sleepy Joe? According to one report, seven Milwaukee precincts returned more presidential votes than they have registered voters. Turnout in Wisconsin overall is alleged to have been 89.25%, more than five standard deviations for the state’s mean turnout since 1960—another statistical impossibility.

One might also wonder why this urban Blue wave materialized only in close states. Milwaukee was way up but not Cleveland? Philly but not St. Louis? Granted Ohio and Missouri are Red, but their big cities aren’t.

How It’s Done
We’ve seen this movie before. This is how they beat Scott Walker in Wisconsin in 2018, Tom Foley in Connecticut in 2010, and Norm Coleman in Minnesota in 2008.

Why stop the count? Because that’s the only way to know how many votes you need to “win.” Sure, you can just brute force things by backing up a truck full of ballots. But that looks bad. You might even end up counting more votes than there are registered voters in the state. Better to eke out a narrow win. As Joseph Kennedy, Sr. allegedly said to his second son, “I’m not paying for a landslide.”

Posted by: gm | Nov 7 2020 2:47 utc | 216

Posted by: suzan | Nov 7 2020 2:44 utc | 212

Use the HREF tag as show to the right of the Name and Email block. Best way - which I too often fail to do, as I just demonstrated above - is to copy and paste the template into the post, then copy and paste the relevant parts - the link and the title into their locations in the template. Then DOUBLE-CHECK that the quote signs and arrows are where they should be, and that the forward slash is before the final A and the HREF is spelled right before posting.

And preview, which I rarely do, which is dumb on my part.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Nov 7 2020 2:50 utc | 217

@204 james

I understand that, but it's not a lot different from the full-screen formatting we often saw on the Internet and still do with some academic archives and Consortium News - certainly that content all wraps but the formatting is still ugly and one wants to improve it, and there are ways to do so.

If there's a fault anywhere it lies with Apple, and maybe Typepad, and the lack of respect for tech standards in general by corporations in their own worlds. But the workarounds in the past and today can be as simple as to Ctrl-C the whole page, dump into a word editor and read in comfort, repeat to catch up until current, post a comment, keep reading, be happy, wear leather on your feet, this too shall pass.

The comments are numbered and time stamped, and these occasions are rare. It may be annoying but it's very workable - just a little leather patch.

No need to blame someone - seek to educate certainly, but not rail against an accident. Blaming someone else makes one the victim of one's own experience.

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 7 2020 2:52 utc | 218

Richard Steven Hack seems almost zealous in his defense of the election results.

What gives?

Posted by: Smith | Nov 7 2020 2:52 utc | 219

Posted by: gm | Nov 7 2020 2:47 utc | 214 some time in the wee hours, additional ballots were “found”

No, they were not. No batches were "found". Batches were totaled as they came in from the counties as the counting continued overnight.

No, Joe Biden did not magically 'find' votes in Michigan


An hour-by-hour update from Associated Press data shows that there was no point in time when Trump did not post an increase in votes.

Election experts have said for months that the margins between Trump and Biden could narrow with the tabulation of absentee ballots. That’s because public opinion polls indicated that more Democratic voters would vote absentee while more Republican voters planned to vote in person. According to estimates from L2, a political data services company, among Michigan voters who had cast an absentee ballot as of October 26, roughly 62% were likely Democratic voters while only 29% were likely Republican voters.

Debunked: Nevada did not stop counting ballots overnight

"According to Nate Silver, no one’s idea of a Trumpist, one tranche of 23,277 votes that turned up in Philadelphia were “all for Biden.”"

And he explained why - which you don't bother to mention here, proving once again you have *zero* intellectual integrity.

"Through the night, all such ballots came from heavily Democratic areas posting unusually, improbably high turnout."

Cite authoritative figures from an authoritative source that they were "improbably high." You can't. Because everyone knew it was going to be a bigger turnout than previously and possibly ever.

You're hand-waving and making assertions with ZERO facts to support them - just like every other Trump mama's boy. You've uncritically accepted everything Trump has said during this election and you come in here and make the exact same assertions without *any* supporting evidence but supposition and inaccurate facts.

And in fact in nearly every case any disruption was caused by Trump bully-boys:

'Get to TCF': What really happened inside Detroit's ballot counting center


Among the wild claims on social media was that someone slipped ballots into the TCF counting center on a wagon, in the middle of the night. But the picture offered as proof turned out to be of a WXYZ TV photographer, hauling his equipment....

Ultimately, more than 5.5 million people voted in Michigan’s presidential election — the most ever and the highest percentage of voting-age residents to cast a ballot in 60 years...

One hour later, another Republican challenger was removed, this one for causing a commotion at a ballot processing table and refusing to pull her face mask over her nose. Robin Bozenski, 61, of Southgate, had a mask on, as required due to COVID-19 rules. But when election officials asked her to pull it up over her nose, she refused, so Detroit police removed her from the center...

As for his role, Nolish said he received instructions from a lawyer to observe any conflicts that arose during the ballot-counting process and to take notes. A typical conflict involved ballots that were incorrectly filled in, such as the ovals were not fully darkened, but rather had check marks drawn on them. Poll workers who saw this would waive a red flag to get a supervisor’s attention, though the flag also alerted the election monitors and the Republican watchers.

“Oftentimes, we would see one or more Republican watchers go to the table, which they have every right to do,” Nolish said. “But we saw them not respecting the six-feet rule and then asking questions and interfering with the process."...

Tensions inside TCF grew as Republicans challengers sounded multiple alarms, saying volunteers were needed right away in Detroit.

"Who is available to go to COBO Hall right now to help monitor the vote? 35K ballots showed up out of nowhere at 3 am. Need help" a group called the Michigan Trump Republicans 2020 posted on Facebook at 9:39 a.m. Wednesday.

Hours later, a similar request was made on Twitter, this one saying 75 more volunteers were needed in Detroit.

"Help needed now," Tweeted a group called Stand Up Michigan. "Go as soon as possible. We are attempting to mount aggressive challenges."

Republicans showed up in droves. By 1 p.m., there were 227 Republican challengers freely roaming the floor where the ballots were being counted — almost double the 134 they were permitted to have — and more kept coming.

Another 268 Democratic challengers were there too — also double the permitted amount — and there were also another 75 non-partisan challengers...

The Republican challengers got bolder, at one point forming a circle around the tables and clapping and chanting in unison: 'Stop the count! Stop the count!'
The police presence grew. Election officials shut it down.

"If you are a Republican or a Democrat, back up!" an election official shouted in the room of angry challengers, who felt they were unfairly being kept out.

They screamed at police, complained to the media and banged on the windows to the counting room.

That led to more chaos as officials then put cardboard over the windows, saying challengers were videotaping and photographing the counting process, which intimidated the counters.

So there you have it. *That's* what Trump mama's boys call a "fair election" - tactics reminiscent of some Third World.

Suck it up. You lost.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Nov 7 2020 3:12 utc | 220

Posted by: Smith | Nov 7 2020 2:52 utc | 217 Richard Steven Hack seems almost zealous in his defense of the election results. What gives?

I have intellectual integrity. Which most Trump mama's boys do not. And of course I want Trump to lose so I don't have to hear about his stupid tweets and insane pronouncements for the next four years, as I've said here before.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Nov 7 2020 3:13 utc | 221

Further to my #196 rant about the commons.

Later I recalled a good read with some solid referencing of the commons and theft thereof. So I grabbed it from the old bookcase. I suggest it worth considering as good brain food. If you are reading Graeber and Hudson then read this too.

Caliban and the Witch - women the body and primitive accumulation - Silvia Federici

I read it as soon as it emerged in 2004/5. It rendered dimension in a world of male writers on the subject of primitive accumulation and recall it is a very good read with great content. I had a minor discontent with style but then I am a male ;}

Thanks to RSH for the intermittent updates from the 538 team.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 7 2020 3:34 utc | 222

@ Richard Steven Hack

No person of any integrity will be defending the US elections, particularly when the side supported by corporate donors and the media win.

I will stand with the little guys i.e. Trump's "mama" boys.

Posted by: Smith | Nov 7 2020 3:37 utc | 223

Grieved @ 216,

I'm sorry you feel as you do. Some of us can not afford Apple products. I for one have only a computer that fails to do links the way others can do them - so I don't do them in the manner prescribed. I can't afford a better computer, and this one was actually gifted to me. We did announce on page one that because of Mark2's extra long link as it appeared on that page, all longer posts were unreadable. For those who like me, had that difficulty, I suggested and posted short posts. I did not do anything but indicate that we could not read posts we would have liked to read. The question would be, did Mark2 post his long link incorrectly? And if so, why did then Uncle Tungsten post the identical link after we had said this was happening?

I don't remember you posting a 'fix'. I do remember one from psychohistorian that I tried very hard to do to correct the problem (as I had tried several times and failed, to post according to the HREF instructions) My computer simply cannot 'visualize' properly the steps described to re-orient the page. The instructions for that don't make sense for a person who is not really smart - I'm sure they were correct but the language on mine is different. It is a very simple machine, and I am a simple person. I can't do many processes that others find easy.

So, I couldn't read uncle tungsten's apology if there was one. Just will repeat that he, quite possibly unknowingly, repeated the link that we had flagged on the first page,and that ought not to have happened.

But never mind. I just gave the notification; that's all I can do. Some of us could not read those two pages.

Posted by: juliania | Nov 7 2020 3:40 utc | 224

Re: 198 Richard Steven Hack,

I provided a brief list of red flags from a single video by an accredited election observer noting his objections to the current vote counting process. you can watch the full video on the Ron Paul Liberty report and decide for yourself. with respect to your counter points

1. your counter point is misleading - the issue is the timing and rapid succession of Biden AFTER delaying the vote tally - this is red flag because the chain custody is broken - were the counters counting the votes, stopping the count, estimating the number of votes required to exceed trump, then stuffing the ballot boxes to reach the required number.
2. People are asking the question and Georgia must provide an explanation for this delay that stands up to scrutiny.
3. in other words, you admit that PA barred accredited Trump campaign observers from the vote and only allowed them after they got a court order, wasting time and preventing the observation of the vote counting process (see point 1)- again a Red flag
4. that one man who was escorted out was the accredited observer from the Trump campaign, why was he expelled? What specifically did he do that justified removing him? he wasn't arrested so no laws were broken - they must justify that course of action - again a Red flag
5. How are these mailed in ballots being "fixed", who is observing this process - what evidence do you have that this is what is happening - again Red flag
6. Statistical variation outside of preexisting historical patterns becomes more problematic the higher the variance is and itself represents a Red flag. For this election Milwaukee had an 85% voter turn out, compared to 61% in 2016 (for Clinton) and 71% in 2012 (for Obama). Wisconsin overall has supposedly had 89.25% voter turn out, more than five standard deviations for the state’s mean turnout since 1960 (about a 1-in-3 million event). Not impossible, but highly unlikely. Did Joe Biden really inspire such exuberance that he outperformed Obama in Milwaukee?

The Red Flags have been identified and must be addressed. Sadly, I doubt there is a willingness of the American elites to apply the same standards of voting they routinely pontificate to the rest of the world on to their own elections. The failure to address these red flags or dismiss them out of hand will only further diminish the already tainted value of American Democracy.

Posted by: Kadath | Nov 7 2020 3:46 utc | 225

This has probably been posted here, but in case not, here's a nice perspective from Caitlin about the election, that I have to say I agree with:

There are accusations of cheating and shenanigans on both sides, and at this point I honestly don’t know how to care about any of it. Like, what am I supposed to say? “Oh no, you mean the fake election for two fake candidates is really fake??” One corporate war whore is as good as another. Let Raytheon pick the winner, for all I care.

- Caitlin Johnstone: Don’t fool yourself, your Biden vote was not a 'vote against fascism'

Such a soothing breath of air. Thanks, Caitlin.

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 7 2020 3:47 utc | 226

_K_C_ #205

Many Chinese See Trump Win as the Most Favorable Outcome for China

Because they're generally a lot smarter over there than in the US of A, where I guarantee you that more than 75% of Trump voters would assume the opposite. Trump's trade policies are failing Americans, they are not bringing back jobs, they are weakening the US of A's position globally as well as hastening the downfall of the almighty dollar/petrodollar.

Not being one to hesitate too long in the gloomy side can a explain my delight.

In my fair land that has seen its export market almost entirely deserted by Chinese buyers because of its groveling leadership obeying Trump's idiot demands to accuse China and p!ss on them from any height, I can now purchase the finest wines at ten percent of the retail price as there is an 'abundance of canceled contract cases for immediate clearance'. The grossly inflated pricing mechanism is fatally wounded right at the time when cellars must be emptied to make way for the next bottling which MUST be done to make way for the next harvest.

Raising a glass to insane stupidity, treachery and bumper harvests. What a f*ing disaster for the bunya nut republic!

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 7 2020 3:53 utc | 227

Here's what I love about this counting in fits and starts:

We are witnessing the end of the Trump Presidency by a thousand cuts.

Posted by: Circe | Nov 7 2020 3:57 utc | 228

correction: I do now see the post from Uncle Tungsten - glad he noticed! And, Grieved, your 'Control-c' does nothing on my computer. But in future I will not complain. Message received.

Posted by: juliania | Nov 7 2020 3:59 utc | 229

juliania #222

So, I couldn't read uncle tungsten's apology if there was one. Just will repeat that he, quite possibly unknowingly, repeated the link that we had flagged on the first page,and that ought not to have happened.

But never mind. I just gave the notification; that's all I can do. Some of us could not read those two pages.

Thank you juliana. Its all good respect to you. I will apply less passion (and the immediacy + errors that it engenders) and be much more careful especially on this pc. I am usually as equally censorious as you of those that post without using the HTML framework. Not that it affects me in the slightest with my setup but aware of its interruption of others passion for this blog. Its the collective goodwill that is most important.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 7 2020 4:02 utc | 230

The petty things that bother some people. I don’t care how long a link is. What interests me is the content. Substance over form.

What is interesting about this election is that it has exposed the frauds and hypocrites. They post here pretending to oppose the System but what they have really shown is that they only oppose the system when it produces results that they don’t approve of. When the system produces results they approve of they will defend it to the death. Their opposition is not to the actual system.

Your country just voted a man quite clearly suffering from dementia as president (who will not last full term) and the vice-president (who will be the actual president) is someone who couldn’t even get to the top five of her own party’s primary.

But that is Ok as #OrangeManBad!

As a non-American it is neither here nor there to me who is president but what is interesting is the level of fraud and deceit the system went to to install one of its own.

This election was like watching a slow motion train wreck live.

Posted by: Down South | Nov 7 2020 4:02 utc | 231

OH-OH...

Someone in Philly may be getting in trouble...

Justice Alito has issued an Order than any ballots received after after 8pm on election day in PA be segregated and secured - and if counted, counted separately. There is a petition pending before SCOTUS. Alito orders opposing side to reply by 2p Saturday.
7:48 PM · Nov 6, 2020·Twitter Web App

https://twitter.com/ShannonBream/status/1324876349107003393

Are Detroit and Georgia to follow?

Then there is this cryptic tweet late last night, from a Trump loyalist former intel operative:

A hypothetical question for all the Democrat trolls following my feed...
What if DHS anticipated DNC counting fraud.
What if they "tagged" each legitimate ballot.
What would happen if DHS does an audit of all counted ballots and find ballots without the tag - what happens then?

Tony Shaffer tweet

Could some sort of vote fraud trap be snapping shut??

Posted by: gm | Nov 7 2020 4:06 utc | 232

@222 juliania

I think that psychohistorian's comment to you was about posting, not about reading. Don't worry about html stuff.

Try this. If you're on a PC, use the keyboard command Ctrl-A to highlight the whole page, then Ctrl-C to copy the whole page, then open a word editor and use Ctrl-V to paste it all into a new document. Strip out any extraneous material you don't want, and you can then read the whole page if you want, however you want.

It's a work-around, and it gets the job done. Sometimes I do this myself simply to cut some essential reading out of the thread, or a web page out there, to digest calmly without distraction.

If you're reading a broken page this way, obviously you have to go to the last comment you copied and catch up what came since, but you can do that. Rinse and repeat. It's far less work than trying to push a thread to a new page, but bless you for that anyway.

I wish you well in this. I have to go now and won't be back until tomorrow, but I'll check in to see if maybe this worked for you.

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 7 2020 4:07 utc | 233

@ Posted by: Grieved | Nov 7 2020 2:52 utc | 216

"[T]he workarounds in the past and today can be as simple as to Ctrl-C the whole page, dump into a word editor and read in comfort, repeat to catch up until current, post a comment, keep reading, be happy, wear leather on your feet, this too shall pass. . . No need to blame someone"

Who is doing the "blaming" here other that you here?

Many of us don't have the means or know how to access your metaphorical (buddhadharmic) "shoe leather."

Your summary at 216 imo is not adequate to help us apply the necessary shoe leather.

We are not "blaming" anybody. Merely pointing out how things are not working so well in an attempt to improve the situation.


Posted by: suzan | Nov 7 2020 4:14 utc | 234

Circe #226

We are witnessing the end of the Trump Presidency by a thousand cuts.

EXACTLY, I share your delight. I have even sharpened the old tungsten tipped samurai sword so that I can slice off the occasional protuberance with the merest swish of the wrist. Do assemble the Class of '86 in the village square for us Circe, I bring a spare blade for thee to swing as well.

Pardon all for being delighted at this outcome and so pleased the blade is good for another decade or two ;)

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 7 2020 4:14 utc | 235

gm & 230

I read about that. I didn’t say anything as I could find a legit source. Apparently Trump was expecting fraud to occur (as he repeatedly warned about mail-in ballots) and what they did was issue ballots with a watermark to denote it is a legitimate ballot in states where they thought election fraud would occur.

Would be fascinating if true!

Posted by: Down South | Nov 7 2020 4:16 utc | 236

Posted by: Kadath | Nov 7 2020 3:46 utc | 223

"1. your counter point is misleading - the issue is the timing and rapid succession of Biden AFTER delaying the vote tally - this is red flag because the chain custody is broken - were the counters counting the votes, stopping the count, estimating the number of votes required to exceed trump, then stuffing the ballot boxes to reach the required number."

There is zero evidence of chain of custody breaking presented. Everything you said subsequent to that part of your sentence is merely repeating your *speculation.* Show specifics from an official source or non-official eye witness, not assertions.

"2. People are asking the question and Georgia must provide an explanation for this delay that stands up to scrutiny."

Georgia did. They ran out of votes to count election night. Presumably this means the counties were stumbling. Given the large turnout, that probably should have been expected and prepared for. It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't, however. This is government we're talk about. Incompetence is the norm. In any event, this is *not evidence*. It is again supposition and speculation.

"3. in other words, you admit that PA barred accredited Trump campaign observers from the vote and only allowed them after they got a court order"

Christ, can't you read - or are you just trolling here. The problem was the number of observers, *not* whether they were allowed in. They *were* in. There was too many of them, so the judge got them to agree on a number that wouldn't interfere with the vote counting - much like Detroit where the number of observers in the room - especially Trump scum - were disrupting the process. Again, not evidence of *anything* having to do with *actual* vote tampering.

Federal judge dismisses Trump’s attempt to stop vote counting in Philadelphia


In an evening hearing, U.S. District Judge Paul Diamond said the campaign admitted that its observers had been allowed into the venue but that they had not been given equal access or numbers as Democrats.

The federal judge seemed frustrated at times with arguments from the campaign.

“I’m sorry, then what’s your problem?” said Diamond, a President George W. Bush appointee, after Trump lawyers conceded that observers had been admitted to the facility.

Diamond urged both parties to seek a resolution to the suit by agreeing to a set of mutually satisfactory rules for observation. They ultimately agreed that a fixed number of observers from each campaign — up to sixty — could be admitted.

"4. that one man who was escorted out was the accredited observer from the Trump campaign, why was he expelled? What specifically did he do that justified removing him? he wasn't arrested so no laws were broken - they must justify that course of action - again a Red flag"

Christ, go read the link I gave you. Are you just trolling here - demanding that I blockquote every damn link I cite - while you don't even bother to cite a link?

"5. How are these mailed in ballots being "fixed", who is observing this process - what evidence do you have that this is what is happening - again Red flag"

Sigh. Clearly you're a moron. Go look up the process yourself, idiot. Google is your friend.

"6. Statistical variation outside of preexisting historical patterns becomes more problematic the higher the variance is and itself represents a Red flag."

Same. Go look up the figures for yourself. It was predicted. It's been verified. The turnout was one of the largest in history.

Did Wisconsin Turnout Exceed the Number of Registered Voters?
No.


This claim is false.

The number 3,129,000 comes from reported voting and registration data from the 2018 midterm election.

According to the Wisconsin Elections Commission, as of November 1, Wisconsin has 3,684,726 registered voters in the state. In a tweet posted Wednesday, the Wisconsin Elections Commission addressed these false claims and also noted that because voters are allowed to register to vote on Election Day in Wisconsin, the number of registered voters reported by certain counties are not a true reflection of registration.

"Not impossible, but highly unlikely."

Once again, evidence of nothing, let alone vote fraud.

You're a waste of everyone's time here. You're just another Trump mama's boy crying in his milk because his Savior lost and regurgitating bullshit made up by Trump and his (other) moron supporters and spewed out on social media sites.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Nov 7 2020 4:16 utc | 237

Thanks to Grieved and to Uncle Tungsten. I am admittedly a klutz on the computer but I will try as you suggest, Grieved, in the morning, and hope your suggestions help others as well.

Sorry to have annoyed folk here -- back to your popcorn!

Posted by: juliania | Nov 7 2020 4:16 utc | 238

Another mail-in ballot found? Seriously MoA? Thousands of mail-in ballots not delivered by USPS - which are majority Biden's. In Pennsylvania the ballots that are delivered later than Nov. 3 not included in the results even though their supreme court dictated otherwise. Yet Democrats managed to flip 5 states that belonged to republicans - including the impossible ones like AZ and GA. Federal agencies calling this election one of the most secure elections in history. Yet those Trump cry-babies, lacking the maturity of a kindergarten toddler, first cry shenanigans, then they declare they won the election on Nov 3., next they declare they won PA the next day, then they launch a barrage of lawsuits anywhere they see fit. This is the kind of material that is the subject of psychoanalysis - not this blog. I come to see a good analysis of these election results to this blog but disappointed to find none.

Posted by: Innocent Civilian | Nov 7 2020 4:19 utc | 239

Posted by: gm | Nov 7 2020 4:06 utc | 230 Justice Alito has issued an Order than any ballots received after after 8pm on election day in PA be segregated and secured - and if counted, counted separately.

Sigh...more stupidity. The Pennsylvania election commissioner *already* segregated those votes. I believe I mentioned that from a post by FiveThirtyEight above. Here it is again. Can't you read?

Maya Sweedler Nov. 6, 8:26 pm
Quick turnaround from the Supreme Court, which has just granted the Pennsylvania GOP’s request to instruct county election boards to segregate mail-in ballots that arrived after Election Day. This order was probably made easier by the fact that, as Amelia noted earlier, the Pennsylvania secretary of state had already directed counties to do this. In his order, Justice Samuel Alito did not order counties to stop counting these ballots, which was also part of the initial request this afternoon. Pennsylvania’s secretary of state has said that there aren’t enough of these late-arriving ballots to affect the final outcome of the presidential race in Pennsylvania.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Nov 7 2020 4:19 utc | 240

Posted by: Innocent Civilian | Nov 7 2020 4:19 utc | 237

AMEN! "Trump cry-babies, lacking the maturity of a kindergarten toddler" - got that exactly right. Well said. Just like their Savior Prince, "The Toddler-in-Chief", as some have called him.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Nov 7 2020 4:22 utc | 241

@ Posted by: Grieved | Nov 7 2020 4:07 utc | 231

Okay, I now see you are counseling PCers. As an apple user this doesn't work. Thanks for your time.

Posted by: suzan | Nov 7 2020 4:25 utc | 242

gm #230

Ballots can be tagged with an invisible flourescent ink. It is simple to scan for this tag at the same time as paper ballots pass through the counting machines and separate untagged ballots. That is no drama but the broad claim is unusual and likely bogus.

This is difficult as it would have be printed on at every printshop that prints the ballots. I gather these are dispersed printeries across the 3000+ Counties and there is some form of audit checking and witnessing destruction of the trial paper runs etc. Substantial detail is needed to give the account of tagging any credibility whatsoever.

Tagging batches in specific localities as a means of identifying fraudulent printed ballots would be a good ide in ensuring integrity but my immediate reaction is that this is a tricky business. One could mandate that only a single source of paper be used for printing ballots and the initial invisible code is printed on the entire stock for the national ballot.

I think the 3000+ counties would whine and scream about that sort of socialism though.
Time will tell but I would remain calm for now.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 7 2020 4:25 utc | 243

Smith - "The petty things that bother some people. I don’t care how long a link is. What interests me is the content. Substance over form."

That's not their complaint. The complaint is because when a URL is longer than a certain amount of characters, rather than simply 'breaking' it and starting the next line with the rest like most modern software does, it extends the screen until the URL link ends. Kind of like what happens if you're using Excel and you are filling in a cell with a really long number and don't have "wrap text" turned on. In essence, long links do not "wrap" at MOA. As an added annoyance, this causes not just the comments to become super small or require you to tilt your phone and resize the text, but it also does it to the story itself.

So when you see complaints about this, it's not because someone is making a petty objection to the visible length of the link, it's an objection to what that link does to the reading experience for users of certain mobile devices (phones, tablets). The issue doesn't exist via PC web browser and I'm not sure why but I'm also not a web developer :-) .

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 4:26 utc | 244

@ Posted by: Grieved | Nov 7 2020 4:07 utc | 231

Well, actually it works but it is very difficult to read because
it is all in off shades of gray. So not an improvement on the
original problem.

Posted by: suzan | Nov 7 2020 4:29 utc | 245

Re: Richard Steven Hack #235

If all you can do to defend your position is scream and rant and call opposing viewpoints "cry babies" and "morons" you are clearly not interested in intelligent and respectful discourse on significant political event. If you insist on acting like this, perhaps you'd be happier in an closed echo chamber like the Guardian, VOX or the Atlantic, rather than the face the reality that there are honest, intelligent people who disagree with your assertions and have their own legitimate opinions and interpretation of the events taking place in the US this week. When people wonder about the political polarization taking place in the Western world these past few decades a lack of civility is clearly one of the causes, something you should contemplate upon.

Posted by: Kadath | Nov 7 2020 4:45 utc | 246

I'm sure there is an innocent explanation for this...?

https://twitter.com/mikeroman/status/1324858704722792448

President Donald Trump’s Director of Election Day Operations shared an alarming video on Friday of Philadelphia “volunteers” handling absentee ballots in the basement lunchroom of the counting center.
When confronted about their bizarre actions, the woman claimed that she is “just a volunteer” and does not know the name of her supervisor.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/11/watch-trumps-director-election-day-operations-tweets-video-philly-volunteers-busted-handling-absentee-ballots-counting-center-basement/

Posted by: gm | Nov 7 2020 4:46 utc | 247

@ suzan | Nov 7 2020 4:29 utc | 243 with the proble with Grieved's instructions on a Mac

I use a Mac and can suggest the following steps:

1. Open a Text Editor
2. In the browser page you are having trouble viewing go to the browser EDIT menu and click on Select All
3. Holding down the Command key press the C (Copy) key
4. Go to your Text Editor, place the cursor in the page and holding the Command key down press the V (Paste) key

There is no shading in a text editor.

Hope that works for you

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 7 2020 4:47 utc | 248

@ Grieved | Nov 7 2020 4:07 utc | 231 who wrote
"
I think that psychohistorian's comment to you was about posting, not about reading. Don't worry about html stuff.
"
I went looking for my comment back in the 180-200 range and it does not refer to juliania nor the HTML issue.

Just saying

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 7 2020 4:51 utc | 249

To anyone particularly surprised about anything that is happening, I suggest refreshing your memories from 2000 and 2016.

In 2000 Bush supporters succeeded in many cases at halting or slowing vote counts (and recounts) so this time around states are ready for it, hence the Trump lawsuits regarding observers. There were people yelling and screaming and breaking windows at vote counting locations in Florida and other close states (I forget which). When that didn't work, Bush sued to stop the re-count in Florida and the partisan SCOTUS sided with him in one of the most poorly reasoned and obviously activist decisions in history. Sandra Day O'Connor, for one, was motivated by both selfish and political reasons for her decision to cast a vote to end the recounts. There were other court cases too, but I forget. That year it really centered on Florida. This year it's a bunch of states and I fully expect a case to end up in front of a SCOTUS that is even more biased now than it was in 2000.

In 2016 Trump complained non-stop that the vote would be rigged because he, like everyone else including Hillary Clinton and the Pollsters "knew" he was gonna lose. When he didn't lose, there wasn't a single Trump supporter anywhere online or anywhere whining about election fraud. Again, he expected to lose but when he won in a close race, nobody raised a peep until Trump started up with his laughable claims that Hillary got her entire margin over him in the popular vote from "illegal" voters (presumably illegal immigrants).

But he had spent all of 2016 complaining about non-existent fraud, and he was aided by his boy wonder, James O'Queef and Projectile Vomitas who conducted some would-be video "stings" around the nation in the efforts to paint Democrats (and only Democrats) as vote riggers. He and his group used various method acting ploys (one was a criminal, another a dead person, etc. etc.) and secretly filmed themselves talking to various functionaries at Democrat primaries including New Hampshire. Generally their MO is to approach a known Democrat operative (or an employee of an organization loathed by conservatives) and spin a wild tale or make a bizarre proposition involving illegal activity, record it on video, then selectively edit the film and release it via his own social media and various conservative personalities' websites. He actually took a few donations from Donald Trump and has become a de-facto member of the Trump campaign although he wouldn't admit it. I think he's back at it this year, but as usual barring a single exception (ACORN), nothing will stick and it will come out later that they broke some law in creating the video and left important contextual portions on the cutting room floor. Everyone here should expect to see some new O'Queef videos on the 2020 vote count very shortly.

But the point is, it was always known that Trump and his supporters were going to claim every form of fraud imaginable if he lost the election. Seriously, go look at his 2016 Tweets. Compare them to what you're seeing now. Virtually no difference. On top of that we knew that the mail-in ballot system was going to be attacked proactively and after the votes were finally counted. But again, only in places where Trump lost. It must have really burned him to see himself up so big in the election day polls and then wake up the next morning to see that the mail ballots were finally being tabulated. So he had a meltdown that continues to this very minute and will last until he gets his way or the end of Biden's first (and only) term.

This year they've really amped up the litigation, and there is a real possibility that partisan judges and the partisan activist SCOTUS, filled with Federalist acolytes, will actually give Trump the presidency should one of the cases involving a state with enough electoral votes to matter end up in front of them.

As far as all the innuendo and "just wait til we unveil the DHS secret ballot markings" and stuff - I call BS. That will end the same way all the Q conspiracies end, with a fizzle. If Trump had some super secret, nation spanning ace up his sleeve, we'd have already heard specifics, not just cryptic Tweets. But who knows - It's still early going, maybe that will happen next week, but I highly doubt it.

What is it with Trump and his supporters that they can never admit to being wrong and never accept in their wildest imaginations that he could possibly be defeated? They expected him to lose in 2016, which he won in a very close race against one of the most reviled American politicians in decades. Now that he's up against the much harder to hate (but easier to not be passionate about at all), it strikes me as extreme immaturity and incredulousness how shocked and impudent they're being before final counts are even made. Like do they REALLY think he's THAT popular just because he gets people to show up at rallies? What kind of bubble are they living in if so? It's like they want us to believe that ONLY Trump can have a "silent majority" but ALSO a vocal arena-filling mob of supporters? Also, doesn't it make more sense that the guy getting the most mail-in ballots would have a constituency that doesn't like big mobs or loud carnival barking - or...wait for it....a candidate that they feel PASSSIONATE about? IOW, Biden evokes no passion on his own. The passion he invoked in voters was the passion to see Trump removed from office. What is so hard to believe about there being a sizeable number of Americans who like Biden and/or are sick of Trump? The whole underlying premise for all the fraud complaints is a simple one: There's no way OUR guy could lose and if he does it's because fraud was committed. (which notably was the exact same reaction of Hillary's voters and the media in 2016 - naaaaw couldn't be that a lot of people hate our candidate, must be the Russians).

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 4:55 utc | 250

@ Mr. Hack

Just want to let you know I appreciate your integrity and sharing your opinions about this!

Trump has been so full of shit for so long, he’s the boy that cried wolf. At this point, I couldnt care less what claims he makes. Good riddance to him and may his dopey supporters nominate a better Republican next time. (It’s not just the D’s that nominate shit.)

Posted by: oglalla | Nov 7 2020 5:01 utc | 251

@ Grieved | Nov 7 2020 2:52 utc | 216... hey - i haven't blamed anyone on this thread for anything.. you got the wrong person, lol... if we talk about making a better world for everyone, i suppose that is an unrealistic thing to do, lol... all i think i did was suggest using the preview option to see how the post looks before it gets posted, especially when you are using urls that might not come out well... oh well...

Posted by: james | Nov 7 2020 5:06 utc | 252

Talk about timing. I was just wondering about this in a recent comment.

If he loses, Trump's "special" Twitter treatment will end

Is translation for: If Trump loses, he will be de-platformed or heavily "moderated" (i.e., censored).

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 5:27 utc | 253

Posted by: Kadath | Nov 7 2020 4:45 utc | 244 If all you can do to defend your position is scream and rant and call opposing viewpoints "cry babies" and "morons" you are clearly not interested in intelligent and respectful discourse

Oh, here we go. The mama's boys can't produce a single verified fact for their "vote fraud" bullshit, so now they're moaning about being treated "disrespectfully". The last refuge of the Internet loser: "He insulted me! He's not playing fair! I uttered a ton of bullshit and I have to be treated fairly!"

Hey, morons. Morons get treated disrespectfully *because* they're morons. If you have zero intellectual integrity and are incapable of logic or incapable of acknowledging facts, and only desire to continually repeat debunked allegations and fact-less assertions, why do you think anyone is going to give you the time of day? Making up bullshit and being incapable of reasoning is when most people decide not to talk to you. The only reason I'm wasting my time exposing your nonsense is because this is a public forum and some people coming here for takes on the election might be exposed to this nonsense. That's why the press has been expending considerably effort to debunk the Facebook crap all of you are relying on. And I have too much intellectual integrity to let it pass - just like I didn't let the stupid covidiot nonsense pass.

I didn't sign a contract constraining me to treat idiots with kid gloves. I'll respect b's rules here to the degree possible - and go elsewhere if I can't. But I'm not coddling a bunch of toddlers who can't be bothered to double-check their Savior's (and his idiot supporters) random social media BS.

All I've asked for is some actual *evidence* of vote fraud. Absolutely *nothing* has been forthcoming from any of you - just questions and speculation and theories. If you're incapable of comprehending what the word "evidence" means, don't expect to be taken seriously when you make unquestioned statements about "stealing the election."

You're welcome to your *opinion*. You're not welcome to your own facts. I buried your alleged "facts". Go get some real ones if you want to continue this. Otherwise, stop wasting everyone's time here. You lost. Trump is toast. What matters now is how Biden is going to screw up the world.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Nov 7 2020 5:27 utc | 254

Question: If the Dems DID cheat, why not also take control of the Senate?

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 5:31 utc | 255

From FiveThirtyEight's last posts of the night:

Nathaniel Rakich Nov. 6, 11:19 pm
We’re Calling It A Night

We don’t expect any major updates overnight, so we’re going to adjourn for the evening and pick things back up tomorrow morning. Here’s where we stand: Biden can clinch the presidency by winning either Pennsylvania or both Arizona and Nevada. And he looks good in all three states:

Pennsylvania: Biden’s lead here keeps widening and now sits at 28,833 votes. What’s more, the remaining 90,000 or so mail-in ballots and 100,000 or so provisional ballots figure to be Democratic-leaning as well. We expect to get more updates from large, blue counties like Philadelphia and Allegheny tomorrow, which may (or may not) inspire the networks to project the state for Biden.
Nevada: After today’s updates, Biden now leads here by 22,657 votes. Although about 124,500 ballots have yet to be counted, they are expected to lean Democratic. Clark County (home of Las Vegas), where most of the outstanding ballots are from, will release its next update at noon Eastern on Saturday and should have the bulk of the counting done this weekend.
Arizona: Biden currently leads here by 29,861 votes, but an estimated 173,000 ballots (including roughly 47,000 provisional ballots) remain to be counted. Trump needs to win about 59 percent of those (or more) to pull into the lead, but he’s been falling short of that so far. Most of the remaining ballots are in Maricopa County, which will announce its next batch of results Saturday at 11 a.m. Eastern.

Finally, there are two states that are not going to be resolved any time soon.

Georgia: Biden is up here by a little over 4,000 votes — hardly a safe margin with up to nearly 4,200 regular absentee ballots, 8,400 overseas ballots and 14,200 provisional ballots left to count. The secretary of state has already said that the race will go to a recount.
North Carolina: North Carolina has counted every ballot it had in its possession as of Tuesday, and Trump currently leads by 76,515 votes. However, the state has announced that about 130,900 mail-in ballots and 40,766 provisional ballots are potentially outstanding, although not all of them will count. Mail-in ballots can arrive until Nov. 12 and still be counted, and at that point more results will be released.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Nov 7 2020 5:33 utc | 256

Re: Richard steven hacks,

You shame yourself with your pedantic rants and bring nothing of value to this discussion . The issues raised about this vote counting process are self-evident and it is your own willful obtuseness that prevents you from rational discourse if you continue to behave in such a manner perhaps you will be happier elsewhere without opposing points of view

Posted by: Kadath | Nov 7 2020 5:43 utc | 257

As Plastic Pelosi once said, "What a beautiful sight!"

Bidet Biden raises the dead to "vote" for him!

The indispensable nation chooses other nations'
presidents faster than they can their own.

Presidential Paralysis engulfs this exceptionally
ungovernable nation.

Perhaps, their beloved Guido can be interim
president while this mess heads to the courts?

Posted by: kiwiklown | Nov 7 2020 5:45 utc | 258

_K_C_ # 253

Question: If the Dems DID cheat, why not also take control of the Senate?

1/ Because the Dems are such a low life collection of traitors to the working and middle class and poor that they have to have someone to blame for never achieving ANYTHING of benefit to the working and middle class or the the poor.

2/ Because the Dems are so rigidly engulfed in the self-serving election funding /campaign rigmarole that the mill and billionairs tip cash into that they must have a fall guy and a renewed election competition every two years - they have just set themselves up for a fabulous income in the mid terms. The party is there for the DNC and its campaign arm and its media whores - NO ONE ELSE!

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 7 2020 5:48 utc | 259

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 7 2020 5:48 utc | 257

Then why not take control of the senate back in 2018 when Trump wasn't up for re-election? Is the implied allegation that they chose to cheat and take over the House instead?

Also, why not cheat to make sure Hillary won? Yes, I know that the MSM, pollsters and Dems predicted a bloodbath, but why not make extra sure? Trump was already accusing them of it?

I agree with both of your points in a general fashion, but even when the Democrats had the White House, the House and Senate, the "best" they could ram down our throats was the insurance/hospital lobbyist written ACA which was a giveaway to both industries and contained no real benefits to the working class or poor across the board, just a subset of people who were actually ill. If they were interested in maintaining pretenses then, that has only increased. The Senate candidates they thought might have a chance to unseat Republicans in 2020 were all, IIRC, "moderates" aka "blue dogs" meaning their majority would only have been useful in thwarting Trump and any expectations of a progressive agenda could be easily written of on the premise that going too far left would endanger their chances in 2022 and 2024, not to mention the new ones discovered the "pay" was good.

Maybe I'm just overloaded and tired of all the conspiracy mongering here over the last two days. I have the same disdain for the Dems (on the federal level at least - there are some good ones low down*) as you, William Gruff and other anti-war anti-globalist anti-banker pro-worker regulars do. But I cannot imagine the Dems, acting as puppets of the oligarchy and corporate sponsored deep state, are competent enough to pull off such a big swindle without getting caught. And before you say, well look at what we're seeing, we're not actually seeing anything.....yet. It's all been innuendo, speculation, the use of (often incomplete or context free) polling data in a manner that fits the narrative so far. No actual evidence for widespread or even local rigging of the election.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 6:17 utc | 260

Forgot to add the text for the *.

* - The "good ones" learn pretty quickly what agenda they are allowed to push if they want a career with the party. Only the ones in states like Vermont** with no power whatsoever are allowed to ascend and hang around. And even when those guys get uppity and try to stoke a movement, the establishment and the media coalesce to put them down.

** - It has been proven to my satisfaction that Bernard Sanders was a sheep dog in 2016 and 2020, but I do believe that he was genuine in the types of policies he was prescribing as they befit his biographical record. So I hate to really hate on Bernie. He's a good guy, but even he knew that he would never be ALLOWED to ascend to the presidency.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 6:22 utc | 261

The Trump Accountability Project

Remember what they did.

We must never forget those who furthered the Trump agenda.

We should welcome in our fellow Americans with whom we differ politically.

But those who took a paycheck from the Trump Administration should not profit from their efforts to tear our democracy apart. The world should never forget those who, when faced with a decision, chose to put their money, their time, and their reputations behind separating children from their families, encouraging racism and anti-Semitism, and negligently causing the unnecessary loss of life and economic devastation from our country's failed response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

We should not allow the following groups of people to profit from their experience:

Those who elected him.
Individuals who worked for the Trump for President campaign, Republican National Committee, and affiliated PACs in 2016 or 2020.

Those who staffed his government.
Individuals who worked in any role as a political appointee in the Trump Administration.

Those who funded him.
Individuals who used their massive personal wealth and influence to bundle money for Trump.

https://www.trumpaccountability.net/

Posted by: Mao | Nov 7 2020 6:44 utc | 262

c @96

You trust the voting system? after bernie was cheated by outright vote flipping by the same corrupt democrats running the mail-in ballot racket?

The Democrat party is a deeply corrupt machinery that ultimately cares ONLY about power. They could care less about something silly like 'election integrity" even as they profess to "get out the vote".

A party that was caught red handed cheating in its OWN primaries to defraud millions of voters who turned out for sanders, will not think twice about a little more fraud, if it gets what it wants, which is power. They and their friends in the Deep State and the big tech platforms who spent 4 years spewing endless propaganda, lying day in and day out, just about everything - from the Biden ukraine corruption to their idiotic impeachment shit show.

yes, there are individuals who do their best, and some are democrats, and some of those count votes as honestly as they can. However, all it takes is a few corrupt officials - usually in the big urban districts to throw the election.

If you really believe the Dem party that ran with a dementia ridden, corrupt geezer as candidate, cheating their own best choice, did not have a plan to sway the elections their way, then I got a nice beach front property in Arizona to sell you.

Well, at least you are not the only gullible American voter. I hear some Americans even believe the maidan color revolution and the Iraq butchery were about "bringing democracy".

Posted by: Merlin2 | Nov 7 2020 6:56 utc | 263

@karlof1

Thanks for the link to the Escobar interview in Consortium News.

Really interesting.

Posted by: Down South | Nov 7 2020 7:26 utc | 264

@gm | Nov 6 2020 23:32 utc | 165

Thank you for a an excellent description of what has transpired. The puppet Biden was pushed through the primaries by cheating and is now pushed to the presidency by cheating. Arguing that that US elections was always fraudulent is not a valid defense of the fraud in this election.

I am more pessimistic about the statement that Trump somehow will be able to prevail. The west is now deep in 1984 style dystopia.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 7 2020 7:36 utc | 265

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 4:55 utc | 248 What is it with Trump and his supporters that they can never admit to being wrong...

You're describing classic narcissism.

Good points about his 2016 tweets. I didn't follow any of that back then. I was on Twitter at the time, but only argued about matters involving the media's misquoting Trump's words (which they did a lot). I still recognized he was a major loser and argued with Justin Raimondo over at Antiwar.com on Twitter and the site about how it wasn't a good idea for Justin to keep going to bat for a cretin like Trump who would never actually be "anti-war."

"What kind of bubble are they living in if so?"

I keep telling everyone: it's "TSS" - "Trump Savior Syndrome". It's the opposite of "Trump Derangement Syndrome" which afflicted the Dems for the last four years. The exact same cognitive dissonance and shock the Dems felt for the last four years is now what we're going to get from the Trump morons for the next four years.

"The whole underlying premise for all the fraud complaints is a simple one: There's no way OUR guy could lose and if he does it's because fraud was committed. (which notably was the exact same reaction of Hillary's voters and the media in 2016 - naaaaw couldn't be that a lot of people hate our candidate, must be the Russians)."

Yup. And then we're supposed to take this unmitigated emotional bullshit as somehow demanding serious intellectual discussion - with people who are as mentally incompetent as Biden is combined with being as lunatic as Trump is.

I'm not wasting any more time on this. Anyone who believes Trump lost due to vote fraud can go ahead and believe it. Just like everyone else in this world, there isn't a goddamn thing they can do about it. They get to feel what we anarchists feel when all this shit happens and we can't stop it.

So fuck 'em.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Nov 7 2020 7:41 utc | 266

@CarlD | Nov 6 2020 23:37 utc | 166

b: please delete urls that make your blog unreadable!!!!

Although I recommend using proper HTML tags, this blog is not unreadable. Stop whining and just use a functional browser. I use the Brave browser on a laptop and a Huawei tablet and have no issues reading the comments.


Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 7 2020 7:42 utc | 267

KC @ 258

Also, why not cheat to make sure Hillary won? Yes, I know that the MSM, pollsters and Dems predicted a bloodbath, but why not make extra sure? Trump was already accusing them of it?

No-one thought that Hillary would be so stupid as to insult the very people she needed to win, the deplorables. But nevertheless they had an “insurance policy” in place if Trump did win as per the Strzok Page texts. They were going to accuse Trump of colluding with the Russians (the Russia Hoax). When that didn’t work they tried to impeach him. (Quid Pro Quo). When that didn’t work they unleashed BLM and Antifa. That backfired so spectacularly that the only way they could ensure Trump could not win was to rig the election in swing states.

If you listen to the interview on Consortium News with Pepe, he states that the Deep State or blob (as he likes to call them) had to punish Trump for the unpardonable crime of not just opposing them but doing so publically.

The Democrats rig their own primaries but the won’t rig elections in swing states because they’re righteous people!!!!

LOL.

Posted by: Down South | Nov 7 2020 7:43 utc | 268

@Richard Steven Hack | Nov 7 2020 0:44 utc | 179

Oh, please. Why not kiss Trump's ass some more, mama's boy?

I have come to accept that this is the level of your contributions. It defines your credibility.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 7 2020 7:50 utc | 269

Or maybe the Trump "mama boys" are right this time and there are frauds involved.

Nobody, Richard Steven Hack included, can explain the freeze on both vote counting and vote reporting.

And surprise, they haven't even declared the winner yet, and we are in November fucking 7 already.

Posted by: Smith | Nov 7 2020 7:56 utc | 270

So Biden is president of the USA.OK.But how will those numerous victoriuously happy NYT readers react when shortly Sleepy Joe will be exposed for what he is,not the best elected president of all times,but an deflated balloon unable to make speeches,or the complice in a fraudulous China-scheme,or someone who mistreat women and children like their other hero McCain?For that will be an eery step to take for their tranquillized minds ,wouldn't it? Unless that will be drowned in the advent of events that will be cause for much more worries,like an "attack on american values" by some iranian folk.

Just keep sawing on your leg,people from the USA,then have a try on the other one....

I would like to read a comment like this on the NYTimes,but can't find any.I think they do not let them pass.

Posted by: willie | Nov 7 2020 7:57 utc | 271

Posted by: Merlin2 | Nov 7 2020 6:56 utc | 261

You're a little too willing to believe the OTHER side of the story, though.

First let me differentiate between "cheating" a candidate and actually rigging the vote or using fraudulent ballots, which is what is being alleged here. Bernie was definitely cheated in 2016 and 2020, but there haven't been any credible examples of his votes being suppressed through tampering with ballots or ballot boxes, or in the handling of absentee voting. He was cheated at the various caucuses, by the party and by the media.

The closest thing I've seen to accusations that the actual primary votes cast either absentee or at a polling place being tampered with or having fake votes added was from this past year, when apparently someone took a look at exit polls across all the primaries that happened in the same couple day span as Massachusetts and North Carolina. What this guy noticed was that in places previously picked to go to Sanders or Warren (MA for example - she LOST her home state???) the exit polling didn't match the claimed un-verifiable outcome (there are no impartial observers in primary election vote counts and most of it is done by computer systems that are different from the voting machines in the general election) BUT only in states that Biden won UNEXPECTEDLY. So his vote leads over Sanders and Warren was were way bigger than anyone would have predicted (his campaign was basically dead as far as the public was concerned at the time) in those states, but he won along predictable lines in South Carolina and the southern states that would never "go blue" in the general anyway (barring some populist Dem like Bernie catching the zeitgeist). Additionally, the discrepancies were compared against the previous Republican primaries in those places and in the case of the Republican vote, no such apparent anomalies were present. Short link so no HTML tags - see here: https://tdmsresearch.com/ - check out each of the states, especially Massachusetts.

But at the end of it all, there were several credible explanations offered.

I didn’t see ANY allegations of the type that we are currently seeing with the general election from Trump supporters. Just vague innuendo that something looked “off” given steam by the fact that, indeed, the DNC was “cheating” sanders while not rigging any traditional votes done at polling places. But if you did, I’d be happy to entertain them and potentially adjust my understanding.

Ahem. With that out of the way, let’s talk about this year’s general election. The types of accusations we are currently being flooded with strain credulity because virtually every one of them relies on speculation, selective interpretation and omits important contextual details which are necessary to really understand how these kinds of elections and counting of the votes work – even moreso since there was an UNPRECEDENTED number of ppl voting by mail this year due to COVID, and we knew most of them would be Democrats.

So I’ll ask you the same question I’ve asked others and not received sufficiently detailed answers to: Please scan the thread from beginning to end and provide some examples of ballot fraud in this year’s general election that hasn’t already been alluded to, hinted at, surmised about, Tweeted out by Trump and his supporters or which was based on incorrect data or incorrect interpretations of incomplete data. IOW, please provide a list of credible accusations of ballot fraud specific to Biden votes (or those of Trump votes being tossed illegally) which would help paint a picture of how such a system-wide, coordinated election stealing effort could be carried out right under peoples’ noses. I don’t want conspiracy theories or “this guy knows that guy who said blah blah” or grainy/pixelated videos of alleged vote counters with their voices garbled telling us that there is fraud being committed where they supposedly work with absolutely zero way of presuming, much less confirming authenticity.

I’ll repeat myself: Large scale general elections are not stolen in the USA by dead people voting, busing, fake votes, ballot stuffing or illegal immigrants casting votes. Do you want to know why? Because it would be damn near impossible to pull something like that off on the scale needed to guarantee the desired result on the national level without getting caught RIGHT AWAY. No, they are stolen on the basis of voter/vote suppression/purging/intimidation on the “front end” and on the “back end” by companies like Diebold (which stole the Ohio vote for Bush in 2004) or in the courts (where Bush stole the election in 2000). To my knowledge the Democrats have not stolen an election on either end since I’ve been alive.

Are the Democrats dirty and corrupt? Yes. Are they owned by TPTB? Of course. But so are the Republicans, who actually can be shown to have stolen presidential elections (my previous paragraph). But the amount of coordination and communication between precincts in multiple states (and with the media and polling/monitoring companies), not to mention planning and then outright LARGE SCALE tampering where THERE ARE TRUMP SUPPORTING REPUBLICAN OBSERVERS OFFICIALLY PRESENT, which would be required to steal an election of this magnitude simply isn’t possible without OBVIOUS examples of concrete evidence it’s occurring and people getting caught doing it.

The Democrats aren’t even in power in Georgia, and the previous Gubernatorial election which was “won” by the Republicans has been roundly criticized for the conflicts of interest that the Republican machine in that state had in how the vote was counted (not to mention how many black people were purged wrongly from the rolls before any votes were cast). So if Georgia flips for Biden and it’s based on a bunch of “FOUND” ballots, then believe you me, there will be recounts, investigations and lawsuits with real results and obvious evidence of fraud emerging. We can only wait.

Not only that, but in the other states like Wisconsin, Michigan and Arizona it’s not like the Democrats single handedly control all aspects of the election process. Plenty of Republicans are involved as they have large delegations of Republicans in the state legislatures, have had RECENT Republican governors and have powerful society Republicans in positions of high influence. Some or most of them are Trump supporters.

So until credible evidence in place of constant innuendo is presented, the only way that any rational person could be expected to believe fraud is taking place in MI, WI, AZ, PA and other places would be to accept that Trump is literally a pariah – not only to the fake resistance Dems, but to his own party – and that they have all managed to rig the election across different voting platforms, numerous precincts with easy to verify vote counts simply because TRUMP == the SAVIOR of GREAT AMERICA that the saboteurs among child sex trafficking communist satanic Democrat elites and their willing Republican cohorts have all colluded, conspired and worked together to get rid of, through obvious fraud and deception, all in plain sight.

The most obvious part about the whole thing is that Trump was crying fraud all the way up until he actually won in 2016 and he and his supporters have demonstrated that they are willing to buy into, enable and amplify any crazy conspiracy theory that benefits Trump or hurts the satanic Democrats. Sorry not buying it. This script is old and no longer believable. Good day (or night).

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 8:01 utc | 272

For the purpose of comprehensiveness, let me expand upon the types of way the Democrats "cheated" Bernie, including in the states that TDM research discusses (my link above). Just like Republicans do in general elections, the DNC ensured that likely Bernie-favoring areas lacked sufficient voting machines and they tried to throw out otherwise eligible voters according to the usual Republican playbook. For that reason there were longer than usual lines at polling stations in areas where Sanders was expected to perform well (colleges and universities, certain minority neighborhoods with lots of younger people, etc.) and all of that kind of jazz.

If that happened in this year's election, it would have been happening in the SAME areas, but facilitated by the Republicans, not Democrats. And I'm sure it did happen.

Which brings me to the kicker. Because so many Democrats were predicted to (and actually did) send in their votes by mail or at absentee drop off stations (or drive in voting like in Texas), it wasn't possible to artificially reduce the number of voting machines in those places in order to suppress Democrat votes. That's the big kicker and it's why so much fake doubt was cast on mail-in voting from the moment the pandemic hit and people started demanding it. It's also the reason that all the whining now is focused on mail-in ballots. Due to the unique conditions of 2020, the Republicans were not able to enact their USUAL voter suppression, intimidation, or other in-person voting barriers that they normally could, so Biden had a HUGE turnout.

Time for y'all to get used to it. Unless Trump and Barr can get a partisan/activist right wing judge or SCOTUS decision - OR - unless some real credible examples of significant (as in results changing) mail-in ballot fraud are found, Biden won this election as fairly as any past president when it comes to actual votes cast and counted.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 8:08 utc | 273

hi, Juliana.

Thanks for your 'short-sentenced' comments on Page 1.

I agree that Americans do not need to self-castigate.
But they need to wake up to good vs bad governance.
Forget about socialism vs capitalism, and other -isms.
Look for leaders who can deliver good governance.

Am also glad you appreciate karlof1's trail-guiding posts.

Us global readers cheer US internal housekeeping woes
'cos your leaders have so rudely offended us for decades.
Can't help ourselves: we are only human.

But yes, your voice is one of the few sane ones here.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Nov 7 2020 8:10 utc | 274

Down South:

"They were going to accuse Trump of colluding with the Russians (the Russia Hoax)."

While the groundwork for that campaign was laid just prior to the election, it doesn't fall into the same category of the types of accusations that are being by the Trump camp now, before a winner has been declared. What Hillary and her camp did was try to de-legitimize the Trump presidency AFTER she had already conceded. What Trump is trying to do is two-fold: 1) Use any trick including widespread (illegitimate for now) accusations of fraud to turn the election in his favor and 2) Proactively de-legitimize the Biden presidency and set the vote fraud narrative that we're sure to hear a whole lot about for the next 4 years.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 8:11 utc | 275

@juliania | Nov 7 2020 3:40 utc | 222

I for one have only a computer that fails to do links the way others can do them - so I don't do them in the manner prescribed. I can't afford a better computer, and this one was actually gifted to me.

juliana, your computer is fine. It is the same for all of us, it is all manual. All you need to do is understand how the html < a href > tag works and follow the template provided by b just above the comment edit box.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 7 2020 8:22 utc | 276

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 7 2020 7:42 utc | 265

I don't usually agree with much of what you contribute, but hear hear - I agree with you there. Now let's have a beer and a steak, quite rare.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 8:23 utc | 277

There nothing to see here righty’s it’s a car wreak for you !
Time to move on.
For the rest of us decent folk, it’s time to look forward at a saner, happier more loving world.
Undoing the harm reeked on the world by trump.
Reconciliation with the ethnic community.
Ditto with Russia, China Iran.

Posted by: Mark2 | Nov 7 2020 8:27 utc | 278

Posted by: Smith | Nov 7 2020 7:56 utc | 268

Please provide links that speak to this assertion of a "freeze" on counts or reporting. I don't care what source as I am capable of researching to find the "other side".

Also, come on man. "And surprise, they haven't even declared the winner yet, and we are in November fucking 7 already."

For the 87th time this was expected. You guys keep ignoring the intentional (and unintentional) obstacles that the USPS was already known to have with regard to getting all the mail-in votes counted. By tomorrow or Sunday I can promise you that there will be a winner declared, and the only reason it won't be is how close the gap is in states where Trump has filed lawsuits to demand recounts, or for other reasons. Please stop trying to make this election year conform to the norms of every other election year where the idiot media starts declaring winners as soon as the first results come in on the east coast.

Plus I'm enjoying the fact that it's ostensibly being done right as well as the conversations I get to have with not only people that I agree with on most things, but you too.

P.S. is "down south" a reference to Southern USA or some sub-equatorial country like SA or Oz?

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 8:28 utc | 279

Posted by: Mark2 | Nov 7 2020 8:27 utc | 276

Mark2, I generally lean Democrat on American politics at the state and local levels. We all know they've been bankster/corporate/Israel owned since the mid 90s. But that kind of commentary, along with Circe's over the top antics are normally bad anywhere. They are especially bad here where we are able to talk to the right-leaning, ultra-conservative, possibly even fascist-leaning folks in a civil manner. Who needs your gloating, celebrating and totally unproductive drive by posts that don't do anything other than try to drag the discourse down to what one can easily find at Yahoo, Breitbart, and any "DisQus" anonymous comment platform? Try to be the bigger person and think about whether what you're going to write is going to contribute to anyone else's knowledge and understanding rather than just partisan jabbing for a chance, m'kay brah?

I appreciate RSH's take no bullshit approach. He comes with facts and links and solid rational logic behind his statements even if they're offensive (to some). But you're just making all American liberals look bad by sinking to same level of American conservatives since the Clinton administration. I'm not even saying you're WRONG all the time, just what's the point other than to turn this comment section into an insult fest?

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 8:35 utc | 280

@ _K_C_

Yeah, meanwhile both other red and blue states have their shit sort out on the first election day.

Meanwhile, Nevada, Georgia and even goddamn Arizona have this freeze where they trickle down the votes one by one, dripping.

There's no explanation for this.

@ Mark2

There won't be any reconciliation. The war rages on, except the USA will be "stabilized".

Posted by: Smith | Nov 7 2020 8:36 utc | 281

Sorry lack of sleep. From my earlier post:

If that happened in this year's election, it would have been happening in the SAME areas, but facilitated by the Republicans, not Democrats. And I'm sure it did happen.

What I meant to say was that I'm sure it did happen in those same places, but due to the fact that fewer Democrats were voting in-person, it didn't have the same (intended) impact as it normally does. This isn't even controversial, BTW.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 8:40 utc | 282

Posted by: Smith | Nov 7 2020 8:36 utc | 279

OK if you wanna talk specifics, WHICH red and blue states had it sorted out by election day (or the end of that night/early morning). I'd be interested to do a deep dive if there are any discrepancies between those states and other states like MI, PA, AZ, NV etc. Could be geography, could be the USPS wasn't sabotaged in those places, I have no idea. But I would like to get to the bottom of it before I come to any conclusion such as fraud.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 8:42 utc | 283

@_K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 8:23 utc | 275

I don't usually agree with much of what you contribute, but hear hear - I agree with you there. Now let's have a beer and a steak, quite rare.

Well then we mostly share the view of each other's opinions, that's at least something :-) But coming together over a beer and a rare stake works as an exception that proves the rule. Cheers!

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 7 2020 8:44 utc | 284

Posted by: Smith | Nov 7 2020 8:36 utc | 279

Also sorry I lose track. Are you an American living in the USA, an expat or just someone who is interested in American politics but never having lived there? I'm not trying to get any personal information, it just helps me when I know the context and very rough background of who I'm talking to. Helps me craft the right type of tone and information when I'm responding.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 8:44 utc | 285

@ _K_C

Basically, every surrounding states.

Next to PA, you have OH and WV.

Everyone next to GA, including Florida, have been called within election day.

Next to Nevada and Arizona, you have TX, CA, CO, NM also called within election day.

So basically, only the battleground states have the counting freeze problems where the vote count trickle down (despite being nearly 80% to 90% on election day) for the next 2 days.

That doesn't make sense, and again, NOBODY can explain it, not you, not me, not RSH.

All we know is that Big Tech is going on a massive censorship campaign, with call of conspiracies left and right.

That's the different between this and Russiagate. Big Tech gives voices to Russiagate, but will not to this, ever.

Posted by: Smith | Nov 7 2020 8:48 utc | 286

@ _K_C_

Not an American but been following US elections since 2012 now.

This is the first time where it takes this long to declare a winner.

Posted by: Smith | Nov 7 2020 8:50 utc | 287

Posted by: Smith | Nov 7 2020 8:48 utc | 284 and 285

It's funny because I have a lot of inlaws in WV, OH and PA. The states are much closer than just an obvious border on a map would indicate. For example West Virginia has this weird panhandle thing that extends up between Ohio and Pennsylvania. My wife's family who aren't in Texas all live in that region - OH, PA and WV (also VA and MD but don't hear much from them even on social media). My wife is from Moundsville, WV and she has family all over that state and in Ohio and around Pittsburgh (very close to the western border of PA). On my side we have relatives stretching from East Texas ("behind the piney curtain") to oil country to El Paso to the bay area in CA. So I have a wide range of contacts in real life and social media contacts from everywhere basically.

My point is that this year I picked up on a vibe that I definitely didn't see in 2016 when people like me, who hated Trump on his personality alone, refused to vote at all (this was before we came to EU). In 2020 I've seen a LOT of trump hate that rivals or surpasses the previous trump love. So the notion that he loses a close election to the anodyne cypher that the neocons/neolibs plugged in in place of Bernie Sanders is no surprise to me at all. Trump fatigue is real in the USA and that's the whole reason I asked you for otherwise unnecessary personal/geographic info. Take it from me - a guy who hasn't voted Democrat since John Kerry (just to get rid of warmongers Bush and Cheney) for president: As a reader of MoA and extremely strong critic of American foreign policy as well as being domestically nothing more than an inverted totalitarian state, EVEN I might have voted for Biden if I decided to participate this year. That's not an endorsement of Biden, it's an anecdotal example of just how tired SOME (and I'd argue it is the "silent majority") are of Trump and his antics, regardless of whether he stands for a real alternative to the globalist private finance cabal system or not. It's also a stunning endorsement of the type of propaganda that we're all subjected to every day and night if we watch western media, no matter whether it's ostensibly right or left leaning.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 9:08 utc | 288

@ _K_C_

That doesn't explain.

If there were problems in infrastructure or even delivery service, MOST states, especially the deeper red states would have problems counting.

But nope, ONLY the battleground states, and precisely the states that the media "predict" to flip/change.

I'm sorry, but like in the other thread, I do not believe that, especially nowadays with all the technology involved.

Posted by: Smith | Nov 7 2020 9:14 utc | 289

KC @

What Hillary and her camp did was try to de-legitimize the Trump presidency AFTER she had already conceded.

Absolute nonsense!

The ground work was laid with the Steele dossier. That pile of garbage paid for by the Democrats. That pile of garbage that the FBI used to apply for FISA warrants multiple times to spy on members of the Trump campaign BEFORE the election took place.

The FBI knowingly submitted information it KNEW was fake to obtain the warrants leading the FISA courts to issue a stinging public rebuke of the FBI.

The facts are clear. The groundwork to overthrow Trump were laid before the election took place as an “insurance policy” should Trump win.

Biden-Harris is the deep state pick, never was Trump., as Pepe warned.


Posted by: Down South | Nov 7 2020 9:15 utc | 290

Posted by: Smith | Nov 7 2020 8:48 utc | 284

Sorry I lost the trail. I will do some research on OH and WV and get back to you. But let me tell you that at least in WV's case it's basically ALL rural and HEAVILY in favor of Trump. Same with Ohio minus Cincy, Columbus and Cleveland. But regardless it was much closer in favor of Trump than WV was. Let me say this: The in-person voting in WV and OH were probably higher in total than the in-person numbers in major metro centers like Philly and Pittsburgh combined. And Philly and Pittsburgh DWARF the entire state of WV by themselves while Ohio is much more even spread out with only two or three NON major metro centers (Cincy, Akron, Cleveland and Columbus - all of which lean liberal). So who knows, but until you give me a theory that is comprehensive, complete and compelling that details why these alleged discrepancies exist, I will treat them with the requisite skepticism.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 9:16 utc | 291

Posted by: Down South | Nov 7 2020 9:15 utc | 288

Dude you're totally missing the point. The only salient details in that conversation are what was done BEFORE official election results were called and what was done AFTER the election was conceded.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 9:17 utc | 292

Posted by: Down South | Nov 7 2020 9:15 utc | 288

Let me clarify. When I talk about any actions here I'm talking about PRE election certification. Whereas the groundwork and false claims might have come out before the election in 2016, they didn't gain traction until just before or after it was decided. Trump is trying to sow doubt in the outcome by way of voter fraud allegations that could shift the actual election. Hillary never did that. They focused on de-legitimizing Trumps first guaranteed 4-year term.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 9:20 utc | 293

K C @ 278
My comment was very positive and constructive. Designed to move the debate out of the negatively on this blog, back toward a more intelligent rational level. Don’t project or blame me for the low level of debate here regarding the election.
If you don’t like my posts, pass them by.
It sounds like sleep depravation on your behalf.
I guess no one likes a smart arse, deal with it.

Posted by: Mark2 | Nov 7 2020 9:29 utc | 294

Geez I need to learn how to consolidate comments.

From my own @286 my originally intended point was that while all the polls and media and such were predicting a Hillary landslide in 2016, my wife and I KNEW otherwise based on our connections to those places. Wish I had placed wagers. I'd be rich.

The opposite was true this year. I knew that Biden would win in a close one based on what we saw from PA, OH and WV (and of course TX which like many states including Democratic leaning ones, isn't just a solid red vs. solid blue at all).

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 9:33 utc | 295

Last post for a day or so:

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 7 2020 8:44 utc | 282

Yep. Some of my best friends including ones in the oil and gas industry with whom I totally disagree and others I've met SINCE Trump and I get together solely to argue and tear each others' faces off over steaks an Texas BBQ. Social distancing of course. Wear your mask and stay 7 feet away from me outdoors. LOL. You're more than welcome to join if we ever happen to be in Austin/Central Texas at the same time (lots of Norwegians, Icelanders, Swedes and other Europeans descend there during SXSW and Formula One).

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 9:38 utc | 296

@ _K_C_

So you have rural big ol nothing states like WV that are supposed to be poor and uneducated but still finish counting or declared within the first day.

And you have much bigger urban states like Texas, CA and Florida, BUT they also get counting done or called within the first day.

Except coincidentally the battleground states that have this freezing problem, and with the exact same pattern (state just stops counting, they keep finding mail-in-ballots).

Yeah, sorry, I don't buy that. I didn't buy it in 2016 and I didn't buy in 2020.

Posted by: Smith | Nov 7 2020 9:39 utc | 297

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 8:01 utc | 270
Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 7 2020 8:08 utc | 271

Excellent points. I hadn't even thought about the fact that the mail-in voting ruined all the usual vote fraud methods.

As for the alleged "count freezes", people should note two things:

1) The count never froze according to what I read - just the *reporting* froze. In places where the counting and/or reporting did freeze, it was because the counties hadn't sent in the totals. One state allegedly had a pipe burst in the counting room, which presumably made them move everything elsewhere. Counties vary in size and presumably in number of counters and competence. It doesn't surprise me that a lot of places do this election thing badly.

2) Based on 1), state-to-state comparisons are meaningless. To prove anything fraudulent was going on, as I said before, you have to go down to the county level and look at the official records of what was received when, what was counted when, when were the figures certified and submitted to the election commission, etc. None of questioners of the alleged "freeze" has provided *any* actual time-line that shows anything suspicious in any way, shape or form. It's *all* based on statements from Trump and random people on social media.

[way too long quotes deleted - b ]

Fact check: Democrat-led states did not stop counting votes for no reason

All of these stories about vote counting being "frozen" have been debunked.

Now as to why some states are slower than others:

Why Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin are so slow to count US election votes as Biden victory path narrows

Why is it taking this long to count ballots in some U.S. states?
States have different rules, and some ballots may not arrive in the mail for days

And from NBC News live blog:
And ABC News predicted *precisely* this result - on Octoer 30 - *before* the election:

How battleground states process mail ballots -- and why it may mean delayed results

People need to read that article - it lays out how the process of counting absentee ballots works in most of the swing states.

And finally there is this piece - from December 8, 2016!

What could possibly be taking so long in the US vote count?


See, this is stuff I pulled up with 15-30 minutes of Googling. But the Trump mama's boys can't be bothered. Instead of researching *why* there are problems, they'd rather just make up conspiracies, taking their cue from Trump himself, and then run around spreading rumors, then asking *other* people questions and forcing other people to do the research they can't be bothered to do.

And that's why I get pissed off.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Nov 7 2020 9:43 utc | 298


Re: both other red and blue states have their shit sort out on the first election day.
Meanwhile, Nevada, Georgia and even goddamn Arizona have this freeze where they trickle down the votes one by one, dripping.
There's no explanation for this. <-- Smith

Well, did you notice that Alaska counted 58% of the vote and for all appearances, they have a long weekend (everybody watching pan-Alaskan dog race? what do they do up there?). And many states count slower. However, people focus only on the close races, and many data sources show tables only for those states. New Jersey, Maryland and Alaska take their sweet time and nobody cares.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 7 2020 9:44 utc | 299

Following on from my @ 276 comment Biden will need to walk back trumps policeys regarding the Israel/ palistine issue.
Giving Palistinians a right to self determination. Roll back the land theft stopping the indiscriminate bombing, and lifting sanctions.
Regarding Israel it’s time the US stopped allowing the tail to wag the dog.
Now we finally got rid of trump we can get back to normal human rights, and rational dialogue with other country’s large or small. Not as the master race (sic) but on an equil respectfull level.
In short the Putin model !

Posted by: Mark2 | Nov 7 2020 9:49 utc | 300

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