Pandemic Freedom
On Thursday the U.S. will celebrate Thanksgiving. That will cause an increase in the number of Covid-19 cases and in the number of deaths.
The states could have intervened but did little to prevent this from happening. The politicians are reluctant to act because the U.S. public at large follows an ideology that is incompatible with a pandemic.
The CDC warns of Thanksgiving celebrations:
As cases continue to increase rapidly across the United States, the safest way to celebrate Thanksgiving is to celebrate at home with the people you live with.Gatherings with family and friends who do not live with you can increase the chances of getting or spreading COVID-19 or the flu.
In my view that warning is not strong enough.
There should be more draconian measures and restrictions of freedom to prevent higher Covid-19 casualties.
In October Canada already celebrated its version of Thanksgiving. The result was a notable acceleration of the pandemic.
Source: George Rutherford, UCSF - bigger
More can be done and more should be done to prevent this from happening in the United States.
But there are people who argue even against stronger warnings:
This week, a survey reported that 38% of people planned to gather with 10 or more people for Thanksgiving, and just a third said they would wear a mask. Twitter reacted predictably. Public health experts and doctors pointed to rising COVID-19 case numbers in many states and scolded (often in all caps): DO NOT HAVE THANKSGIVING.Of course, there is no doubt that large gatherings, indoors, and without masks is a recipe for the rapid spread of SARS-CoV-2, but at the same time, I worry that the abstinence-only approach -- the just-don't-have-Thanksgiving approach -- is not the right way for public health experts to respond.
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I think public health experts should not just listen, but hear what people are saying. Americans are saying that despite all the damage done by COVID-19, despite the rising cases and at-capacity ICUs around the country, their desire for human connection is so great, that they are willing to take the risk and have Thanksgiving. Americans are, in effect, expressing the longing and desperation of their soul.
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Instead of admonishing people to not gather, public health experts should begin from the starting point that people really want this -- correction, people are saying they need this. Given that the desire is so strong, what advice can we give to minimize the risk? How can we reduce -- not eliminate risk.
As Thanksgiving family meetings happen indoor with everyone talking and eating together in one room there is little one can do to reduce the risk and to avoid new infections except to call off the event.
That is why I think that the states should have intervened more by restricting travel and the size of private meetings.
That is not happening because for many people in the U.S. this is not about 'longing' or a 'need' but about a mistaken understanding of freedom:
Here's a question for all red-blooded liberty-loving American patriots: Who has a greater lived experience of freedom at the moment, citizens of Vietnam or the United States? Vietnam, of course, is a one-party Communist state, with fairly strict limitations on freedom of speech, the press, and so on, while the U.S. has (at least for now) a somewhat democratic constitution and (at least formally) some protections for civil liberties.But in Vietnam, there is no raging coronavirus pandemic. Thanks to swift action from the government, that nation squelched its initial outbreak, and has so far successfully contained all subsequent infection clusters before they got out of hand.
Vietnam is free of Covid-19 and its people are mostly free to do what they want to do. The same goes for China were Covid-19 restrictions are now minimal. People are free to travel within the country and to live a normal life. The few local outbreaks that are still happening are rigorously hunted down. Still, the Associated Press depicts those interventions as an assault on the ever ephemeral 'freedom':
Chinese authorities are testing millions of people, imposing lockdowns and shutting down schools after multiple locally transmitted coronavirus cases were discovered in three cities across the country last week.
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In Manzhouli, a city of more than 200,000 people, local health authorities are testing all residents after two cases were reported on Saturday. They also shut down all schools and public venues and banned public gatherings such as banquets.China has resorted to its heavy, top-down approach each time new cases of local transmission are found — shutting down schools and hospitals, locking down residential communities and entire neighborhoods, and testing millions.
Tianjin authorities shut down a kindergarten and moved all the teachers, family and students to a centralized quarantine space. They also sealed the residential compound where the five cases were found.
China's approach to controlling the pandemic has been criticized for being draconian. It locked down the city of Wuhan, where cases were first reported, for more than two months to contain the virus, with the local government shutting down all traffic and confining residents to their homes. Domestically, however, China has called its strategy “clear to zero” and has boasted of its success.
China used science and strong public health measures to defeat the pandemic. Being draconian in doing that is the only way to really get a pandemic under control. The AP's negative tone about the anti-Covid-19 measures is typical for U.S. media:
Ninety one percent of stories by U.S. major media outlets are negative in tone versus fifty four percent for non-U.S. major sources and sixty five percent for scientific journals. The negativity of the U.S. major media is notable even in areas with positive scientific developments including school re-openings and vaccine trials.
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Stories of increasing COVID-19 cases outnumber stories of decreasing cases by a factor of 5.5 even during periods when new cases are declining.
That may have been caused partially by anti-Trump sentiment in the media:
Among U.S. major media outlets, stories discussing President Donald Trump and hydroxychloroquine are more numerous than all stories combined that cover companies and individual researchers working on COVID-19 vaccines.
Trump surely could have done more. Still, he is now getting too little credit for his successful Operation Warp Speed which has created three reasonably good vaccine in record time.
But would the people in the U.S. really have followed Trump's or any others president's advice if he had called for or ordered more restrictions?
I find that unlikely because the preeminent ideology in the U.S. is this false understanding of 'freedom' which is incompatible with a pandemic:
Life for Vietnamese people has returned to normal, with a few sensible precautions. If their success holds for a few more months until a vaccine can be deployed, Vietnam will have dodged the pandemic nearly perfectly.
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Meanwhile in the self-appointed "land of the free," on Sunday[, November 15,] the seven-day average of daily COVID-19 deaths was 1,148.
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The bleak irony of American life is our boastful and hyperbolic national conception of liberty has left us as one of the most unfree peoples on the globe. There can be no freedom without government, a lesson currently being inscribed in blood, and stacked up in the mobile morgues that are overflowing with corpses in more cities around the country every day.
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All the political freedoms I supposedly enjoy as an American citizen are useless in the face of this unending tsunami of death and misery. The plain fact is that the average resident of Vietnam — under a repressive dictatorship, let me emphasize — has more freedoms in the places where, for most people, it really counts: the freedom to leave the house, the freedom to see and touch one's family and friends, the freedom to go to a restaurant or a bar or a movie or a concert, and simply the freedom from constant grasping fear of invisible death.
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In reality, as Vietnam demonstrates, the only way to have freedom during a pandemic is with a competent, aggressive state that does intrusive, coercive things on a hair trigger, the very instant they become necessary.
The U.S. and other 'western' societies have failed to understand that. Individual liberties are all fine. But they must stand back when the liberty of the general society is endangered.
Emergency medicine (triage) knows the concept of minimizing 'life years lost' when deciding to either save patient A or B. The patient who has more potential life years left is preferred to survive.
We may need a similar concept for 'freedom' where the aim is to maximize the amount of total freedom not for individuals but for the society as a whole, not within a short moment but over a considerable period of time.
This what China and Vietnam have done. Their draconian local measures have harshly restricted the freedom of relatively few but maximized the freedom their societies could allow themselves. In the end even those whose freedoms were restricted the most, the inhabitants of Wuhan for example, have gained more freedom than a runaway pandemic would have allowed them to have.
Posted by b on November 23, 2020 at 16:57 UTC | Permalink
« previous page | next page »Posted by: gm | Nov 24 2020 10:11 utc | 200 -- "You mean an island nation like UK? Covid death rate *~750* persons per 1M population?"
The geography is less the problem as the governance.
Perfidious albions, anybody?
Posted by: kiwiklown | Nov 24 2020 11:17 utc | 202
Hey b,
Can you do an article of PCR test cycle threshold? There has been some dissenting voices saying the ct value is too high and people who are not infectious are included in the case count. Would like to know your thoughts on this.
Posted by: toh | Nov 24 2020 11:42 utc | 203
Posted by: Grieved | Nov 24 2020 6:30 utc | 182 -- "The breach is not the doing of reason but of sabotage. The fix is not in the reasoning but in the saboteurs."
Thank you for replying, and especially for that eloquent sentence! I feel your pain.
Thanks too for that Zhang Weiwei video. I am alreadydoing due diligence on him, having learnt his name from this site a couple weeks ago ( hat tip to karlof1 ).
I have saved your entire post for further reflection.
So much to do, so little time.
Posted by: kiwiklown | Nov 24 2020 11:49 utc | 204
oh look another geriatric with underlying health problems succumbs to the hoax
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/buffalo-bills-tommy-sweeney-out-season-heart-condition-myocarditis-coronavirus-covid19-pandemic-232820531.html
nfl player in prime. losing out potentially on millions of dollars playing football. cause, you know, hoax.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 24 2020 12:10 utc | 205
The Bundestag passed the Infection Protection Act on November 18. It is the same as the Enabling Act of 1933.
Possibly Bernhard has no choice but to take the line he has been taking.
Same Act for our protection will be everywhere soon. In many ways it is here already. It is over.
Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 24 2020 13:01 utc | 206
Dear MOA,
I have enjoyed your geopolitical analysis for years and I will continue to do so. But your Corona coverage is a glaring weak point! I notice you did not respond to Off-Guardians response to one of your off-articles on Corona.
I decided a while back that I would not read your perspectives on the Corona again. I did not read this one, but judging by the comments ... dude, this is just not your area!! Stay with the geopolitics... please!! Thank you so much. Really appreciate you.
Posted by: Damani | Nov 24 2020 13:12 utc | 207
I wonder when b. will finally acknowledge the following established facts:
1) When we look at “new cases” we are actually not looking at “infections” but at positive PCR-Tests, or at guesswork diagnosis based on generic symptoms that are common to flu and cold. This totals > 90% of all reported “new cases” that are actully false alarms.
2) A positive PCR-Test does not mean you are infected or infectuous. This has repeatedly been confirmed by courts. Fractions of inactive RNA molecules having absolutely no health impact are enough to trigger the test.
3) Many PCR-Tests in use are not specific to SARS-COV2 but will respond to any Corona-Virus.
4) PCT tests have a specifity of 93-99%, which means 1-7% false positives when mass-testing a near-healthy population.
When you keep these facts in mind, you get a totally different picture, and no more motive for lockdown or vaccines.
This is all well-known but gets kategorically ignored by the mass media and by anyone who profits from keeping the pandemic alive; including the Democrats, the WHO and Big Pharma, and the NWO pundits. In other words: the Deep State.
It amazes me how the writer and commentators of this blog, who are otherwise very critical of propaganda disseminated by MSM, Gov and BigTech/BigPharma, are able to swallow whole the pandemic-related propaganda which deserves the same scrutiny but somehow doesn’t get it.
Posted by: Matthias | Nov 24 2020 13:12 utc | 208
Re: Matthias | Nov 24 2020 13:12 utc | 211
"I wonder when b. will finally acknowledge the following established facts:"
Hopefully never. Every point of your list is simply and totally wrong
1) "When we look at “new cases” we are actually not looking at “infections” but at positive PCR-Tests, or at guesswork diagnosis based on generic symptoms that are common to flu and cold. This totals > 90% of all reported “new cases” that are actully false alarms."
Where do you get that 90% figure from? Name the investigation please, any trustful source is welcome but, please, leave me alone with one of those sensational denier bubbles.
"2) A positive PCR-Test does not mean you are infected or infectuous. This has repeatedly been confirmed by courts. Fractions of inactive RNA molecules having absolutely no health impact are enough to trigger the test."
Again wrong. A positive PCR-Test still means that you are or have been infected. Where else should that piece of RNA come from? It is however correct that you may have overcome the disease and are no more infectious. But, so what?
"3) Many PCR-Tests in use are not specific to SARS-COV2 but will respond to any Corona-Virus."
I doubt that, scientists are not that stupid. The initial publication by Drosten et al, for example, was of course validated and extensively tested against all other known human pathogenic Corona viruses. And even if, which other Corona virus is presently roaming the world?
"4) PCT tests have a specifity of 93-99%, which means 1-7% false positives when mass-testing a near-healthy population."
Totally wrong. China has recently mass tested the Wuhan population. 10 Million tests and round about 100 probably false positives. -> specificity of 99,9999
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19802-w
So, when will you finally acknowledge these established facts?
Posted by: Cemi | Nov 24 2020 14:07 utc | 209
I have been following this site for years, and just can't believe the stand favoring the lockdown. A far better description of reality is available here:
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/germans-are-back
Posted by: Fiona Jenkins | Nov 24 2020 14:34 utc | 210
Contrary to what some have said, I have read the posts here. Quite interesting, and both sides have some legitimate points. Why does no on listen to each other anymore? From where I sit, we're going to have to live with and function despite of this man made bug. That means socializing and being opened. A little common sense applied in doing both would go a long way. Also I don't know if reports out of Australia are true, but what I have read this bug is shape shifting. I'm not sure how a vaccine deals with this if true. However the pharmaceutical companies will be fat and happy with such a development. My own personal peeve is no one asks who paid for this and why. Shouldn't we? As it stands so many small and middle size companies are on the brink, and likely will die. The middle class, except for the professional nanny staters, is also about to die. The humanitarian disaster that is about to hit us will make Covid a walk in the park. In my humble opinion free Vitamin D levels testing for everyone, and free Vitamin D pills for all. Kinda convenient that doctors have vilified the sun, beef, dairy, and eggs for years. Sorry but still a cynic.
Posted by: Old and Grumpy | Nov 24 2020 14:39 utc | 211
Two things are clear ——-
1. The covid deniers are only interested in their own selfish agenda, on a level of reckless drunk drivers.
2. The covid deniers are solely to blame for the continuation of this virus !
They just don’t care.
Ignore them.
End of story
Posted by: Mark2 | Nov 24 2020 14:45 utc | 212
One thing is certain: the comments here all reflect the point of view of the West, which failed miserably to fight the pandemic. You can fell the almost religious fervor (and desperation) in every word published here - a sign of the times, no doubt.
If there were Mainland Chinese commenting here, they would all be praising the lockdowns. It would be a completely different picture.
@195
"in between excoriating various science denying idiots "
What's funny is how people like you could care less for all the people starving and dying due to this manipulation of what's basically as unscientific and over hyped of a pandemic as H1N1 was.
Any crowd that claims science or God is on their side are utilizing magical thinking in that they believe only they know when government, NGO's, and the media are lying and when they are not.
Add to that your ad hominen attacks which only prove your own personal fear speak much louder than the non peer reviewed science and hype you so ignorantly recite. Science is a commodity ans has been for a while. Better get used to it.
I have yet to see a post advocating "ignoring" this virus, the point being made is that there are actual survivors of the virus and it's not nearly as deadly as the hype made it out to be from the very beginning of it right up until today.
Then there's the fact that the government here in the states refuses to help its own citizens during this "pandemic" and watch on as they end up homeless and bankrupt which would only make the situation worse. On top of that the sanctions we have placed on other nations would need to be lifted in order to "flatten the curve" if that were of any actual concern to the official pandemic response. I hope you can clearly see by now that calling people idiots for not being as naive as you are is pointless and counter productive.
Hopefully some day you'll learn to read between the lines and not cling to bought and paid for science like you are now. Until then, all you're doing is lashing out at folks due to your own unrealistic fear of death.
I will just ask that you not allow other folks to choose your friends or your enemies for you. Not B or anyone else.
You(like the rest of us) have not known the truth behind many of the latest fear mongering narratives pushed upon us over the last 80 + years, I really can't believe anyone could be so foolish as to think they're getting the truth today. Who do you think you are anyway ?
Posted by: dave | Nov 24 2020 15:07 utc | 214
Fiona Jenkins @211
It got my attention sometime ago too. Amazing how a site - and many of its readers - which used to oppose western governments and their media liars are now embracing their position. I post exclusively on Covid 19 topics in an attempt to keep this site and its information on the right side. It may be a losing battle. To his credit B hasn't resorted to censorship.
I'm afraid this is an example of the modern Left. It doesn't appear to hold to any moral values these days. So it's easy for them to support authoritarians against a free society. I suppose the important thing for them is to be on the winning side and have power over the losers. I guess 30 years of winning every battle in the culture war has spoiled them with success. All they care about now is power.
Posted by: EoinW | Nov 24 2020 15:10 utc | 215
"In October Canada already celebrated its version of Thanksgiving. The result was a notable acceleration of the pandemic."
Case, more cases, and again cases......it is an epidemic of cases and nothing more than cases.
Posted by: Roberto | Nov 24 2020 15:14 utc | 216
I am glad to see the trolls made it, in force. Maybe they will donate too.
Face it we're never going to agree on this. Like Karlof1 i believe the social countries will do better because whether by agreement or rule they will act with concern for the greater good of society. That just doesn't happen here in the US because the whole system is built to reinforce individualism, that is then used to control the masses under the guise of 'freedom'.
No matter what you believe have a Happy Thanksgiving and for those not from the US. Enjoy the sideshow and resist the urge to be like us.
Posted by: Ozz | Nov 24 2020 15:16 utc | 217
@ Posted by: EoinW | Nov 24 2020 15:10 utc | 216
I'm afraid this is an example of the modern Left. It doesn't appear to hold to any moral values these days. So it's easy for them to support authoritarians against a free society. I suppose the important thing for them is to be on the winning side and have power over the losers. I guess 30 years of winning every battle in the culture war has spoiled them with success. All they care about now is power.
This is the typical Western Marxist/Western Leftism stance since the schism of the Russian Revolution. Moral values above material necessity; utopia over praxis.
Old and Grumpy asks who pays for this ?
On the princibal of ‘The polluter pays’
The virus deniers who by their own admittion have been ignoring medical advice, will logically have been spreading the virus.
They will need to pick up the bill.
Posted by: Mark2 | Nov 24 2020 15:18 utc | 219
Old and Grumpy @ 212
Vitamin D-3 tablet are reasonably priced. I've been taking them since February. What would be nice is if the government and media encouraged people to take vitamin D. Now I'm thinking of all the beach closures this past summer - denying sunbathers the opportunity for natural vitamin D. It's like they don't want people to protect themselves and remain healthy.
This has turned into a big power trip for them and their supporters. It's not only forcing us to change our lifestyles, they're opposed to us having freedom of thought. We're Covid deniers, which makes us mass murderers. Definitely guilty of hate crimes!
Ironic as most of us accept there is a Covid 19. We question how dangerous it really is. We question the need to take away people's basic freedoms. We question governments endlessly repeating the same actions which never worked the first time. We hate being treated like little children. We distrust the endless fearmongering. We even have the nerve to look at the facts - such as hardly any excess deaths - and insist the reality is that there's no pandemic at all.
Oops! I forgot that this is the 21st century. We now live in the time of Snowflake pandemics. Forget the Black Death killing 40% of Europe's population. Forget the Spanish Flu killing millions between the ages of 15-40. We're living with the modern pandemic. Forever anticipating a mass dying off. I wonder what will wipe us out first, the pandemic or global warming? I put my money on old age.
Posted by: EoinW | Nov 24 2020 15:26 utc | 220
The freedom crowd takes much offense to B recognizing that Vietnam has indeed had the most effective coronavirus response in the world. Vietnam is an incredible nation and I wish Americans weren’t so aggressive in their hatred of communism to recognize the areas I no which it is effective such as disease prevention and poverty reduction. If I was able to I would move to China or Vietnam and sacrifice freedom for safety at the moment and let the rest of you live in the COVID colony that is America
Posted by: Garrett | Nov 24 2020 15:36 utc | 221
Your credibility here is slipping though B, you used to post a log of all coronavirus posts so people could see that you flip views on it every week. One week why lockdown? Next week pro lockdown? Chinas fault, chinas the savior, it’s no big deal, major complications in organs, vaccines will save us, vaccines won’t work, so on so on. Your message has been very inconsistent, this is best article yet showing Americans something they don’t see often, there is a new 76 video series on wuhan on YouTube that is mind blowing
Posted by: Garrett | Nov 24 2020 15:40 utc | 222
@ Posted by: JaimeInTexas | Nov 24 2020 15:46 utc | 225
Comorbidity is not cause of death. If that was the case, almost all the deaths in the First World would have only one cause: old age. Cancer, influenza, heart attacks, strokes, Alzheimer, etc. etc. would have zero mortality.
The homo sapiens has a natural life span of 38 years. By your logic, everyone above that age is doing extra time and can only die of old age.
It's funny to watch anti-communists sputter and be reduced to glorified name-calling and disinformation peddling so that they don't have to recognize that countries whose governments are single-party Marxist-Leninist states have done extraordinarily well in containing the virus and preventing spread, while more market liberal societies have faltered.
It's tempting to chalk it up to ideology, but the material factors are another explanation: the government could not afford to act because it could not afford to impede economic growth, economic growth (and not "Freedom" which is only justified in these societies by reference to the economic growth it will entail) being "Western" (really, Faustian) society's sole remaining value.
Economic growth was the term on the lips of every denialist. It was the reason we shouldn't lockdown, the reason we should end the lockdowns, the reason we should suck up 250,000 deaths and counting, the reason we should pretend the virus doesn't exist. Economic growth is the reason we have 250,000 dead and counting. Economic growth is why managers at meat plants had betting pools on which workers will get sick. That's Faustian "freedom" for you. The exponential growth of GDP is mirrored by the exponential growth of covid-19 cases and deaths and the exponential decline of biodiversity (our planet's most precious resource).
I don't think it's as bad with the younger generations, especially those of us now scarred - physically and psychologically - by the pandemic experience. Those of us who watched the reasonable adults fuck everything up from 9/11 on, us 90s and 2000s babies who grew up in a world beyond parody, are much more cynical toward Faustian values.
Posted by: fnord | Nov 24 2020 16:00 utc | 224
"In your dread of dictators you established a state of society in which every ward boss is a dictator, every financier a dictator, every private employer a dictator, all with the livelihood of the workers at their mercy, and no public responsibility.
"And to symbolize this state of things, this defeat of all government, you have set up in New York Harbour a monstrous idol which you call Liberty. The only thing that remains to complete that monument is to put on its pedestal the inscription written by Dante on the gate of Hell 'All hope abandon, ye who enter here'"
(G B Shaw, 'The Political Madhouse in America and Nearer Home', a lecture given in New York, 1933)
Posted by: Shakesvshav | Nov 24 2020 16:32 utc | 225
@Posted by: EoinW | Nov 24 2020 15:10 utc | 216
"To his credit B hasn't resorted to censorship."
I beg to differ. And I think Jen would say the same based on the few of her comments that have managed to squeeze thru temporarily.
The site has been blocking last 2 days my sharing info from legitimate sources questioning UK [mis?]use of reverse trans polymerase chain rxn covid test.
Lately this site has been blocking/censoring a lot.
Posted by: gm | Nov 24 2020 16:51 utc | 226
gm @ 227
I'm sorry to read that. Hopefully B is only censoring in order to protect his site from being shut down. Honestly, given all the Big Tech fraud and censorship regarding President Trump, I'm surprised we all haven't been silenced permanently. It's clear that the Woke Left believes in Thought Crimes. If Trump does not get 4 more years I doubt there will be much hope for freedom of thought, for those who wish to think for themselves. Even with 4 more years, the trend is still pretty bleak. Considering how many have embraced the Covid Cult, our days are numbered as a free society.
Posted by: EoinW | Nov 24 2020 17:18 utc | 227
uncle tungsten @195--
Thanks ever so much for finding and posting that discourse! In looking at a collection of Bastiat's admonitions, he's clearly a very conflicted person morally, which is to be expected given the turmoil of the times--end of Feudalism and rise of Industrial Capitalism during the Age of Colonialism in which we're still engaged despite the hype of the dawn of a new Industrial Revolution.
@ ADKC | Nov 24 2020 6:55 utc | 184 quote - "I have no idea what the "head doctor of b.c." wants and this is irrelevant. I am dealing with what the PANDA stats show, not anecdotes." avoid answering my questions on what you would do... okay... thanks for the non response on them..
adkc quote - "You suggested that my interpretation of the PANDA stats was biased." i said what you are trying to do with the stats is biased, not the stats themselves..
adkc quote -"However, you have already made the decision, You say "the stats are irrelevant"... the particular projected stats in your post @ 115 are irrelevant.. yes..
adkc quote "You are not interested in whether the stats are correct or not, you are not interested in what the stats show. You want the evidence free fairy tales! Why on earth did you ever respond to my post then? It can only be that you wanted me to tell you was okay. Well, I can't because it's completely wrong-headed."
there are a lot of ''you'' statements here adkc that i don't feel like responding to.. it would seem appreciating or understanding my viewpoint is not a priority with you at this time..
adkc quote "The PANDA stats show that Covid-19 is not a big issue for Canada. It seems to me that you are the victim of propaganda from your Government and Health Service." - thanks for letting me know what you think.. we see it differently... out of curiousity, do you think the head doctor is unaware of these stats that you appear to want to use as the be all and end all of the discussion and your position on how to move forward here?? is it possible she has more information that goes beyond the stats that you are citing?
adkc quote "The long and the short of it:- I just don't believe what your Government and Health Services are telling you about capacity in hospitals in BC." and why would that be?? i am curious.. thanks..
Posted by: ADKC | Nov 24 2020 6:55 utc | 184
Posted by: james | Nov 24 2020 17:34 utc | 229
@ 115 adkc... stats header quote "Canada Respiratory Disease/Infection (RD/I) Deaths" this is not covid... this is copd.... you are working from a flawed premise...
Posted by: james | Nov 24 2020 17:49 utc | 230
i have a friend who has copd... it is not the flu... it is something different! this is from my daughter in law who is a nurse...
Posted by: james | Nov 24 2020 17:50 utc | 231
Ozz @218--
Thanks for your agreement, but it was so easily predictable as I wrote earlier this year before the pandemic bloomed globally. Grieved mentioned the state of nature and natural law aspects that were behind the political philosophers that founded the USA and that is where their concept of freedom resided. But since it was likely taken as a given, humanity's state within nature--that there is no freedom without the community/society given Nature's reality--never made it into the picture. I swear it's that com-word that's polluted the entire conception of Community and the Commons just as the denigration of Socialism has polluted the idea of society. Those denigrations are actually rather recent, having been contrived during the latter third of the 19th Century in the battle by the Rentier Class and their allies to retain their wealth and power which was under heavy assault by the forces of the Community/Society wishing to rid its polity of Feudalistic vestiges.
Without Community/Society, Freedom is a Mirage, a Chimera, as the State of Nature will grind down the strongest of individuals in very short order. That's why humans are social animals, so they can better their chances of surviving Nature. And that Truth is as valid today as it was with the advent of Primates about 70 million years ago who formed societies to survive. The eldest cultures/societies have evolved to the point where collectivism and libertarianism have fused such that it's possible to pursue individual projects while participating in collective pursuits. Being one of the youngest cultures/societies, the USA hasn't yet evolved to that point of maturity, a point that could also be made about much of Europe, which is older but not by much, and is also still evolving. If humanity lasts long enough, such differences will eventually become mostly even, but IMO that's several thousand years away.
@187 Paco
Thank you for that clip. It made my day watching that sour-faced harpy presstitute squirmed as the "light of western freedom" shined upon her own country and behavior.
Posted by: sad canuck | Nov 24 2020 18:23 utc | 233
karlof1 | Nov 23 2020 23:58 utc | 124
I frequently get that message within a few minutes of opening the page. How long have I got?
Posted by: foolisholdman | Nov 24 2020 18:37 utc | 234
NemesisCalling @136: ...eastern cultures at bottom may be different than western ones in how they view benevolence in government...
Eastern cultures absolutely are different from what we have in the West, and particularly at "the bottom". The difference is so vast that many people cannot see across it. I'll explain one example that I'm sure you'll have no difficulty with because it deals with a severe, backwards-logic delusion in the West that you're not deeply invested in nor is it likely anything that you've integrated into your identity.
Feminism in Japan.
When western so-called "Third Wave" feminists visit Japan they are shocked and horrified. "OMG! The women here are so oppressed! They wear skirts and dresses instead of pants with broad and empowering leather belts! They pitch their voices higher into powerless feminine registers instead of struggling to lower their voices into a gravely and authoritative masculine tone! The women here are so beaten down that they are not even trying to adopt the tropes of manly power!"
But the understanding of power in much of Asia is not the capricious and one-way thing that we view it as in the West. Power comes with responsibility, and that is not just an empty platitude in the East as it is in the West. In the West we believe that power gives one freedom from responsibility, which is part of why our leadership is always so fucked up. In the East the more power an individual has in society the more they are constrained by responsibility. The corporate exec in China who shirks that responsibility could very well face the firing squad, and the one who does so in Japan will be expected to commit suicide in order to save society from that unpleasant necessity.
But beyond this kind of power that we in the West have no difficulty understanding, even if the responsibility side eludes us, there exist other poles of power. In Japan in particular the ancient agrarian matriarchy wasn't fully displaced by industrial patriarchy and instead continues to this day in homes and communities. While the Japanese may have adopted the western words asserting that the man is the master of his castle/home, the reality is that he has no power there and that the home is entirely under women's control. This domestic power, by the way, extends beyond the walls of the house to all of the neighborhoods and communities of Japan. This local power, while nominally and legally subordinate to the state and big business, is not often crossed by the state. Societal rules, largely unspoken, keep these powers on their own separate "turfs". For example, the PTA is an organization that the national Diet will not tangle with and its proposals generally get rubber-stamped into law.
While the patriarchal power in Japan is focused with typical industrial hierarchy, the matriarchal power is diffused right to the roots of Japanese society. Do remember from above that with power comes responsibility in the East, and that responsibility isn't optional. While this is no less true on the matriarchal side of the power division in Japan, the diffused nature of power on that side gives the individuals from which that matriarchal power emerges much greater freedom of action. Few women in Japan want to chain themselves down with focused patriarchal power, much to the dismay of western "Third Wave" feminists who sadly can only comprehend that kind of power.
Thus there is a balance of power in Japan that eludes understanding among westerners from atomized communities and accustomed only to crude top-down power hierarchies. All westerners can see is the familiar power pyramid that in Japan has the onerous responsibility of dealing with the barbarians beyond Japan's borders.
[Aside: The growing western definition of masculinity, and in particular the hyperaggression that young Black American men are programmed to believe is an important element of their Black identity, is viewed in Asia as amusing but dangerous animal behavior... watch and humor it but keep your distance to avoid being bitten! It isn't just western feminists who are out of place in Asia.]
Of course, the situation in China is very different as culture there has been reshaped by communist revolution, but it is necessary to realize that the revolution was genuine and the changes are real in order to understand contemporary Chinese culture. A communist revolution is nothing like one of the empire's "color revolutions", which are really little more than commercially staged events like music festivals with some rebel LARPing thrown in. Communist revolution doesn't just change who is at the top of the power hierarchy but changes people's entire relationship with the hierarchy.
I criticized the other poster for inability to connect to the larger society in which he is embedded (except perhaps by watching sitcoms on TV or something else entirely mediated by capitalism), but it really isn't his fault. He doesn't know any better and cannot imagine how things could possibly be any different from what he knows; or worse, that anything different from what he knows is necessarily inferior because, you know, American Exceptionalism. karlof1 often highlights the difference in outcomes for "individualist" versus "collectivist" cultures' efforts to deal with issues, but "collectivist" is a naughty word in the West. Isn't it so much better to exalt at and elevate the individual above the collective? Sure, that's wonderful for the individual... if he happens to be at the top of the hierarchy. If that individual's business was just wiped out by a flood and his mortgage foreclosed and his wife left him for his competitor and his son drops his genes out of the gene pool by turning gay and his pickup truck breaks down and his dog dies and all he has left to keep him company in the gutter is his bottle of Mad Dog 20/20, then that rugged individualism no longer counts for much. It depends entirely upon which level of the power pyramid that you are on how wonderful that worship of the individual is.
But isn't "collectivism" just grey and uniform mediocrity? Everyone with the same clothing style, hair style, even the same toothbrush? How horrible is that, right?
But that isn't at all what collectivist culture is about. For an example, despite Japan being dominated by capitalism it still has a very collectivist culture. The way that Japanese people view their entire society is in many ways very much like how an American would view their immediate family. While you can see your imagined dull grey uniformity in the Japanese wearing identical work and school uniforms and suits (and being proud of those uniforms! "WTF is with that?!?!" the westerner thinks), you also don't have to look hard to see brilliant and colorful displays of creativity and expressiveness. In fact, that collectivist nature of society provides a secure base from which individuals can take creative risks. No matter how you fall down if you fail, your "family" will catch you.
Naturally, China is nowhere near as tight a "family" as Japan is. It is a huge population with more cultural diversity than America has, so that closeness like what the Japanese have doesn't come automatically. On the other hand, China's communist revolution built cross-cultural bonds based upon class that moves society in the direction of cohesiveness and mutual respect. Further, their economic, technological, and cultural successes have built a sense of common interests; almost a shared destiny. That is something totally alien to Americans outside t-shirt logos and soft drink brands.
I sure wish we in the US could build something similar, but the forces of divisiveness slicing and dicing our society along every possible cultural fault line are too entrenched and have successfully enlisted America's declining (and thus frightened and desperate) middle class as their shock troops.
"Socialism with American Characteristics"? We almost had it.
I am a lineman for the county...
Yeah, the county and not PG&E or Duke Energy or Bechtel or Comcast... the county. Real American "deplorables" are not afraid of that kind of socialism.
Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 24 2020 18:46 utc | 235
foolisholdman @235--
Hmm... I get an hour, but it only appears when I try to post a comment, not after one hour or more of browsing through the comments--and it resets whenever I change pages. Quite curious. Maybe the browser you're using perhaps?
Grieved # 159
Thank you for your wise post on China and the respect for government that is earned through right action for compassionate purpose.
You got it in one. There really is no comparison between China and the USA as the entire social motivation is opposite in most all significant aspects. The success of societies when faced with such circumstances as plagues and viral pandemics comes down to trust between the people and their government and that governments competent support for the people.
Unfortunately for those societies with the least trust and misplaced duty within government, they are the ones to be destroyed or severely impaired by this pandemic. The USA and UK is a stark example of the corrosion of spirit caused by a repetitive diet of dishonest propaganda shouted at the people for decades if not centuries. May the people escape their echo chamber of insanity.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 24 2020 19:00 utc | 237
ADKC | Nov 24 2020 0:35 utc | 133
As far as I have been able to ascertain, China did not lock down the whole of China; they only locked down certain areas.
Quite right! I did not say the whole of China was locked down "only" about 57million in Hubei province and some more in a few other cities where there were outbreaks.
China's health systems were pretty poor in the mid-2000s, they've almost certainly improved but not as much as some would like to believe.
In 1949 China's health service started effectively from scratch. During the lockdown in Hubei, the government was able to bring in, 40,000 doctors and other medics from other parts of China, to help the overstretched local medical services and none of the 40,000 died of Covid-19. That would be impressive anywhere. In a country, that in my youth was commonly referred to as "The sick man of Asia" it is extraordinary!
If you catch me making "lazy assumptions" please point them out.
Posted by: foolisholdman | Nov 24 2020 19:05 utc | 238
NemesisCalling #152
You say "Wrt China, they have almost as many cameras as people in their country. Do we Americans want this same level of monitoring and control as the Chinese? Well, that is indeed the question."
Don't be ridiculous - USA and every other western society has Stingray to intercept/monitor all your phone calls, you have Microsoft, Apple, the Cloud to record every keystroke, you have facial recognition, vehicle number plate readers and data mapping.
The west is totally mapped, monitored, recorded, intruded upon.
The UKUSA elite was filmed bonking juveniles in a set up operation run by Mossad, Wexner, Maxwell, Epstein. The elite are captives and you too.
The west has enabled total spectrum dominance and handed it over to a seriously subversive nation. China refuses to do so.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 24 2020 19:10 utc | 239
Foolisholdman @ 212:
The severe 6-day lockdown that South Australia imposed on its people was lifted when SA authorities discovered that a man had lied about how he had become infected with the SARS-CoV-2 virus. He had said he picked it up as a customer of a pizza shop. Authorities later found he had been working shifts at the pizza shop that was the centre of a cluster of cases. The man had lied to cover up cash-in-hand employment. So no, no mutation of the virus if that is what concerns you.
Posted by: Jen | Nov 24 2020 19:20 utc | 240
NemesisCalling | Nov 24 2020 0:41 utc | 135
As it stands, I say there are many many posters in here that will never mention anything good about the west or America ever again. They have taken a solemn oath to repeat the same anti-west tropes ad nauseum.
I think you are wrong. The reason that WG and others (Including myself.) seem to you to think that China and its allies are wonderful and the West is all bad, is because they reckon that almost of all that appears in the western media, about those countries, is either slanted in a negative sense or outright damaging, denigratory or sneering lies and they want to tilt the narrative a bit in the other direction. We all know that there are good things in the West, but think that they get more than their fair share of publicity, while good thing about China are suppressed or denied.
Posted by: foolisholdman | Nov 24 2020 19:24 utc | 242
William Gruff @236--
That was very well produced! You were likely composing while I was posting my 233, but our descriptions entwine and mutually reinforce. I'm using an anthropological interpretation and my understanding of human evolution--physical and cultural--that sees Asia after Africa as Humanity's Heartland, while Europe remained sparsely settled until very recently, well after the advent of settled agriculture, which I also believe originated in the now flooded area of the Sunda Sea and moved Westward over millennia--global warming and plate tectonics having a huge affect of the rise of hominids, evolution and distribution: All aspects of human history never covered until you get into college aside from incorrectly via religion.
It's very sad that so much of the West's Matriarchy was obliterated by the Patriarchy that replaced it as I'm sure it could teach us much about our Western selves, although we can study the views of society provided by the many pre-biblical Mesopotamian sources despite their being pigeon-holed into the realm of academic specialists. Some know the reason for that; a great many more need to discover that reason. I wonder how many of the naysayers on this thread owe money but think they're free?
@236 gruff
Thanks for the aside. I am sure you have thought long and hard on the subject and it shows in your in-depth reply.
Yes, in other countries some of our homegrown "feminists" visit, they may be indeed shocked that women are comfortable as the "better half," knowing their role and feeling empowered when they are capable of fulfilling their responsibilities.
You and I both know that the good deplorables among us in the U.S. view the sexes with the same yin/yang and unspoken understanding with only the super losers, the fuckheads and spiritual cripples who can not nestle themselves comfortably in this role. Perhaps there is a socioeconomic aspect to this as well. For myself, I view Christianity as the great evangelizing force when it comes to the ethical sphere of human life, as did Soren Kierkegaard.
But that is not to say that other nations amd cultures do not have similar aspects about them that can propel their people into this ethical sphere. I am just saying that, in the west, Christianity has been this force par excellence and it is a deep travesty of history that we have relegated Christianity as something to be spited. In its place, globalist new age culture, with its cursory appropriation of eastern spirituality has completely undermined the ethical sphere in the west and reduced most of us to self-serving hedonists, a far cry from the millenia of hard work and sustaining food that Christianity had brought to the table.
I wish the Catholic Church would acknowledge the power of the writings of Soren Kierkegaard and proceed from his powerful authorship. Instead they seem more than content to indulge the globalists and yield to worldliness under Francis. Traditionalism in any shape or form, heritage when it comes to western europeans, is to be shunned and exorcised out. Too bad.
...
After WW2, the Japanese were eager adopters of westernism. If you are of a cinephile mind, I would suggest a Mikio Naruse film called "When a Woman Ascends the Stairs." Great, great film from a great Japanese filmmaker.
I am glad that the Asian nations have come together to form their own trading arrangement. If America can fully decouple from these markets so that our local ones can have a fighting chance at resurgence, I see a reorientation away from cross-sphere globalism, which will benefit all nations.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Nov 24 2020 19:36 utc | 244
oldhippie #207
The Bundestag passed the Infection Protection Act on November 18. It is the same as the Enabling Act of 1933.Possibly Bernhard has no choice but to take the line he has been taking.
Same Act for our protection will be everywhere soon. In many ways it is here already. It is over.
Thank you - but such pessimism is sad. Ask Joe Stalin, he never succumbed to pessimism as far as I can tell and he smashed the Reichstag for their fascism back then.
I am sure that if b took any form of heretical stance that he would be receiving multiple visits by soft speaking officials. Its the nature of the place. So b does his best and reports periodically and leaves it up to us to discuss the fine details or wander about off topic.
If we can tolerate the odd citation from the wapo or nyt witout spitting the dummy - we can tolerate the odd citation from the Bundestag blithering idiots. Besides, the USA is always listening in to their private phone calls - ask the BND.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 24 2020 19:53 utc | 246
NemesisCalling | Nov 24 2020 1:44 utc | 152
That lockdowns "work" is a dubious proposition.
Lockdowns by themselves are not enough. To say that they "do not work" is to deny the reality of China. The point of a lockdown is to stop the disease infecting new victims. If you can isolate the infectious and the possibly infected you can wait until the disease has run its course in the infected and effectively kill off the disease. However, it is not that simple to do. You need to tell people what you want them to do and explain why and that it is only temporary. You also have to look after the people who are locked down. You have to hospitalize or otherwise treat those that become ill. You have to feed the people who are locked down and cater to their other needs as otherwise they are not going to be willing or even able to stay put. They are going to need not only food and carers, but money as well. Businesses, particularly small businesses are going to need financial support. Health professionals and the couriers and other carers who look after the locked down, will need ample supplies of PPE and paying. All this takes organization, planning and determination to get it right. Abilities and attitudes that seem to be sadly lacking in many governments.
Posted by: foolisholdman | Nov 24 2020 20:16 utc | 247
Grieved | Nov 24 2020 2:23 utc | 158
I think the issue of freedom is actually a strawman here.It usually is!
That is a good post. It needed somebody to write that. The issue of surveillance is dragged in too, but it had at the most a marginal effect. The important point is that the Chinese government demonstrated that their first priority was to safeguard their peoples' health. That this also safeguarded their livelihoods too, was a bonus (a beneficial and predictable side-effect) rather than the primary motivation.
Posted by: foolisholdman | Nov 24 2020 20:39 utc | 248
@ Paco # 186 with the video link...thanks
I kept reading others thanking you for the link and had to go look for myself. It would seem that broader portions of society are standing up to the empire narrative and calling BS
Nice to see. There may be hope for our species yet.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 24 2020 20:40 utc | 249
William Gruff #236
Magnificent read, thank you.
For many people the community remains strong and integrated and a support in difficult times. I see a similar and extraordinary weaving of knowledge - responsibility - and accrued respect with age among the Aboriginal Australian social matrix. Alive and rebounding today after two centuries of devastation.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 24 2020 20:46 utc | 250
I don't know about any of you in your own countries, but for years I've been on the trenches when it was necessary to give face in the struggle for more family medics, new health facilities, expansion and qualification of the existing ones, defending the incorporation of nurses in the health service beyond despicable labour contracts, before their brains and abilities flee to the UK, in protest against PPPs (private-public-partnerships) where private hospitals rake in the profits while the tax payer indebts itself to foreign banks. Removal of numerus clausus (entry quotas) for access to any domains of higher education, including medicine, and its exclusionary tuition fees. Defending public transportation, expansion of and economically rational schedules. Defending national production against over dependence on tourism and non-productive service sectors of economy... I've been to all of them... longer than half of my life.
Some of these struggles we won and most we lost, some we compromised others we obliterated all the odds... all of that sweat more than worth it. So forgive me if after months and months of cautious positions, leaning mostly towards the precaution side, generally supporting most of the measures taken, I am currently absolutely against all these increasing police state measures.
I am saying: This is an Health issue, the solution must be arrived at therein, the real response to C-19 lies in responding to the long standing issues and the solutions that have been pointed out and submitted for years. F*** the police state, the family reunion restrictions, friendly gatherings prohibitions, the work limitations, all arbitrariness and authoritarianism on love, on political association, on economy, on the whole of life. We surrender any of this now, we fall for this ignorant swindle, we will be both dead and stupid, nevermind Covid-19.
Please dear friends... This has been a rant, I expect some of you to have already come across some of the material reasons in previous threads which give rise to it and I'll abstain for now. When some of you generalise and imply the sceptics are mere pandemic deniers, keep in mind some of us sceptics are structural, we've been defending the actual health solutions for ages, now that some governments are now rushing to implement these while wiping away hard earned conquests along with it... but This Shall Not Pass.
Posted by: Vasco da Gama | Nov 24 2020 20:50 utc | 251
EoinW #216
You say "I'm afraid this is an example of the modern Left. It doesn't appear to hold to any moral values these days. So it's easy for them to support authoritarians against a free society. I suppose the important thing for them is to be on the winning side and have power over the losers. I guess 30 years of winning every battle in the culture war has spoiled them with success. All they care about now is power."
Nonsense, you are merely talking about the media created 'left'. It is this fabricated 'left' that has been deliberately framed by incessant propaganda to exclude socialist thinkers and proponents from getting any platform to expound their ideas. In many ways Bernie Sanders destroyed that fabrication of the left by espousing some good leftist or socialist notions. Good for him. [But I don't like his treachery.]
Left and socialist positions are derived from analysis of power and class and economy (partly) and it is wise to avoid being sucked into the dust storm of 'woke positions' on every other aspect of human behaviour. Its the economy! that counts PLUS its the entire society that should benefit from the economy. That seems a good left position and so it flows that there should be Medicare for all, a living wage, a healthy, sustained natural environment, a life with minimal debt and enslavement.
We make no progress if we merely parrot the faux left framing of the totally controlled and pernicious main stream media - they are only there to fool us and sow nonsense thoughts in our heads. They are trash and their BS is obvious.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 24 2020 21:03 utc | 252
ADKC | Nov 24 2020 6:04 utc | 178
Despite your assertion, there is no overwhelming evidence that shows that lockdowns prevent the spread of infection; where implemented the evidence shows that lockdown does not appear to impact the existing trend.
Tell it to the Chinese!
Does it not occur to you that the doctors that are speaking against lockdowns realize that the epidemic will drag on and on until there is a vaccine, if left to itself and then almost everyone will want a shot or two?
As I have written earlier, lockdowns are not simple to implement. The lockdown itself is only a necessary part of a much more complicated organizational feat, but carried out correctly, as in Wuhan, very effective. OTOH carried out as in the UK, without the necessary organization, PPE, financial support, support organizations, medical personnel, test gear and all the rest, it probably kills more than it saves.
Posted by: foolisholdman | Nov 24 2020 21:18 utc | 253
Freedom as we hear it championed by some seems almost to be the state of nature. The State of Nature was a benchmark used to establish a baseline for reasoning by the American thinkers of the age that created the Union of the States.The state of nature is the primeval condition of freedom, where everyone is free to do as one pleases - and then we study consequences from that, in the models created from our reasoning, to determine principles of wisdom to live by.
There is a very interesting account of life in Iceland during the Viking era when there were relatively few rules(!) I always think it would be good for the advocates of "Small Government" to read "The Icelandic Sagas". A new translation into English was published two or three years ago. I expect it can still be found on Amazon or the like site.
Posted by: foolisholdman | Nov 24 2020 21:29 utc | 254
Sorry! The above was mean as a comment on: Grieved | Nov 24 2020 6:30 utc | 181
Posted by: foolisholdman | Nov 24 2020 21:33 utc | 255
It is my pleasure to read such variety of thoughts so well expressed and pondered. Thanks to you guys, in this bar learning opportunities abound.
Posted by: Paco | Nov 24 2020 21:37 utc | 256
blues | Nov 24 2020 6:58 utc | 187
Interesting point is that Taiwanese and Japanese scientists showed in a Japanese TV program that the Taiwanese cases were brought to Taiwan by people who had been to Hawaii and the US and the Japanese caught theirs from the US also.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/covid-19-originated-us-japanese-tv-broadcast/5704493
While I was looking for that I came across this which seems germane to the subject under discussion.
https://popularresistance.org/who-expert-explains-why-chinas-cases-of-covid-19-are-declining/
Posted by: foolisholdman | Nov 24 2020 22:02 utc | 257
I work with over 400 people and we have roughly 100 contractors come in and out everyday. I also take part in two family businesses. A tavern and a brewery. Of all the people I know and come into contact with the worst I've seen in two days in the ICU for dehydration. A 71 year old man with Covid. Most have very mild symptoms a few have moderate flu like symptoms. I don't know anyone who has "long covid". I am a department manager at our management team goes over our covid watch list every day. We believe Covid went though the plant in February and March. The spike in my state happened in March and early April. We did not take any precautionary measurers until May. This is the most overhyped nonsense imaginable. I fully believe this is about an economic "reset" as Klaus Schwab and Bill Gates seem to be leading thought the Davos crowd. They aren't even hiding it. They tell you in their own words what their plans are. I encourage everyone to get up to speed. They've made it easy for you. Go ahead an listen. They clearly want you to know as they have been very open about it.
Posted by: goldhoarder | Nov 24 2020 22:26 utc | 258
Posted by: Matthias | Nov 24 2020 13:12 utc | 209
Regarding the problem with the PCR tests. Contrary to one of the answers given.
The glaring problem with the PCR test has always been the Cycle Threshold- This is well known. Has been discussed among scientists and is an acknowledged problem- Despite the claims of Cemi @ 210
Let's go to this article
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/09/one-number-could-help-reveal-how-infectious-covid-19-patient-should-test-results
The number discussed is the cycle threshold
"Now, epidemiologists and public health experts are opening a new debate. They say testing centers should report not just whether a person is positive, but also a number known as the cycle threshold (CT) value, which indicates how much virus an infected person harbors."
"Standard tests identify SARS-CoV-2 infections by isolating and amplifying viral RNA using a procedure known as the polymerase chain reaction (PCR), which relies on multiple cycles of amplification to produce a detectable amount of RNA"
"Nevertheless, Mina, Gaglia, and others argue that knowing whether CT values are high or low can be highly informative. “
"n a study published this week in Clinical Infectious Diseases, researchers led by Bernard La Scola, an infectious diseases expert at IHU-Méditerranée Infection, examined 3790 positive samples with known CT values to see whether they harbored viable virus, indicating the patients were likely infectious. La Scola and his colleagues found that 70% of samples with CT values of 25 or below could be cultured, compared with less than 3% of the cases with CT values above 35."
70 percent of the samples with CT values of 25 or below could be cultured ie: they were viable
30 percent were dead. Non viable. No possibility of infection
However ONLY 3 percent of the test samples that had CT values 35 and above could be cultured
>b>Which makes very clear that 97 percent of those test samples were dead. Non viable. No possibility of causing infection.
"Conversely, people often test positive for weeks or even months after they recover but have high CT values, suggesting the PCR has identified genetic material from noninfectious viral debris. "
The lowest CT value in Canada is 33- Most testing is done at CT thresholds higher then that. Some much higher
St Josephs Healthcare sets it's CT at 45
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S138665322030175X
Which indicates to us that the vast majority of PCR testing is simply picking up deadremnants of months old infections- With minimally 97 percent of those "positive tests" being absolutely meaningless- Not indicating an infectious case at all.
The spate of recent tests in Canada that imply there is a spike are likely telling us that the vast majority of those tested had the virus and it was much ado about nothing. I expect the US is in the same boat.
b will never address what the issues these scientists are raising because, by all appearances, it looks as if b is emotionally invested in the idea of a pandemic, rather then the reality-
Posted by: R Rose | Nov 24 2020 22:31 utc | 259
C@210 - You are right to question the 90% figure as that would only be true if all cycles of pcr were recorded, in other words test at 5ct, test at 10,at 15,20, etc. The do not do that they go straight to 40 because there millions of tests to do. By doing that they can miss all or some of the PCR tests that would be positive or negative at 5cts, or 20cts. So the estimated % of false pos is around 30 to 50%. Still wayyyyy high though.
Important point to make is that there are the same percentage of deaths that have been listed as "with Covid-19" on death certs and reported as Covid-19 death.
WRT china and much of Asia, they test a around 20cts, and they also usuallu only test those with symptoms or those who have been in contact with a known infected person.
There are a ton of other issues like this in and around this "pandemic" but unfortunately even smart, level headed people simply can not hear it.
Posted by: jef | Nov 24 2020 23:58 utc | 260
foolisholdman #258
And while I was looking at your link, I came across this.
Stay safe b
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 25 2020 0:52 utc | 261
Oh dear, apologies if I screwed up your viewing
Here it is in html disguise
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 25 2020 0:54 utc | 262
"what the hell happened to this site? for crying out loud lol. horrible.
Posted by: Julian | Nov 23 2020 19:02 utc | 43"
Some disillusioned Trump/QAnon people became unmoored after the election. They didn't go to TheDonald.win, but Google led them here.
We've seen various Atlantic Council shills come and go. I expect the same with these disappointed souls.
Posted by: daffyDuct | Nov 25 2020 1:05 utc | 263
Complete shock! Never expected from you - the smart guy with the love for reasoning and facts - to print this propaganda piece for the government-loving coronavirus hoax.
So disappointing,
Val G.
Posted by: Val Goetz | Nov 25 2020 2:13 utc | 264
Wearing a Mask is Government Communist New World Order Tyranny!!!
Police shooting unarmed Black people and beating "BLM/Antifa" protestors, however?
That is Law and Order and Defending Freedom, Democracy, and Liberty itself!!!
American Values™ in all their Orwellian glory....
Police Brutality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljHPOR0qcQA
Posted by: ak74 | Nov 25 2020 2:22 utc | 265
yes it is wondering making that b.s blogs on Covid could come from the mainstream press. He lives in Germany and hasn't said a word about the suppressed and subsequentially leaked report from the German parliament that said it wasn't a big deal. Its not like the pandemic has been terrible in Germany with around 15 thousand deaths attributed to covid. I forget the name of the European epidemiologist who said, "I do science, I don't work for the government." as he doesn't consider the virus as a big deal. I myself find it less dangerous than the flu as it kills a very small percentage of the children the flu kills. It mostly kills old people with comorbidities who die soon anyway. He doesn't mention the tie in with the great reset or the US blob of the military industrial complex and the national security state melding with the health complex in promoting the virus as a deadly danger. He doesn't mention how Belarus with many more people and no lockdowns has less deaths than Nepal. Why Nigeria, with a large population and third world conditions despite its oil wealth has less deaths than Nepal. OrJapan with no lockdowns (Japan cannot legally enforce hard lockdowns. Public transportation is operating as normal. Most state of emergency measures are requests and instructions. Violators cannot be punished unless they fail to comply with orders related to storage or shipment of emergency relief goods and medical supplies.) although cases are rising in several metroplitan areas. Speaking of cases - how can you be a case if you never get sick? whoever heard of quarantining healthy people? I got a letter from some NGO asking for help for children in quarantine (mostly because they were in contact with someone who tested positive. I won't go into the testing anomalies. Yet b. reports with no doubt that China reported testing a couple of million people with not one positive. I am 72 and don't wear a mask in public. It's not a bad idea to wash your hands when you come back home from the public anytime. I hug and handshake. I went on my vacation at the beach with my extended family. We all ate at a public restaurant without masks or social distancing in S Carolina. I did see a few people walking alone on the beach with a mask on. (shaking my head) A person who knows more than most about these things says that since SARS COV 2 spreads mainly by aerosols that masks probably make spread worse because if you are infected the moisture the masks captures will make the virus escaping to be more in aerosol form than droplets -the virus is mostly spread by its aerosol form. in May 2020 I read on the CDC website a review of 18 studies saying 17 out of 18 studies found they did not prevent infection as does OSHA say - masks will not prevent infection. Most everybody in my area of rural Virginia do wear masks in public. So far only one person has been hostile to me because of my non mask wearing. I expected that the US would have more people sick with covid as even with the most spent on healthcare Americans have become less healthy in my lifetime.
Posted by: gepay | Nov 25 2020 3:23 utc | 266
@ 287 gepay... do you think the fact that 3,599 tests per million in one country, verses say 328,302 per million might account for some of these differences?? it is easy to pull numbers - as i have here - to make broad sweeping statements about the differences from one country to another.... of that you seem to skip over either intentionally or not- i am not sure...
Posted by: james | Nov 25 2020 3:33 utc | 267
i would also note that highest number of dead today in the usa from covid since may 7th...2187 dead from covid today.. is any of it preventable?? do masks work? my impression is that masks do work and the reason for the number of dead in the usa is related to this too... the numbers are going the wrong way for the usa... i think this is testimony to the topic of whether masks work or not...
Posted by: james | Nov 25 2020 3:39 utc | 268
b
I trust the infection protection act is not as grim as cj Hopkins thinks.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 25 2020 5:45 utc | 269
https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/527478-top-epidemiologist-says-sweden-has-no-signs-of-herd-immunity-curbing-coronavirus
but but but i thought sweden was showing us the way. that hoax just keeps on hoaxing. where did all these fools suddenly come from? cases are exploding, deats will follow, and the goddamned idiots are making in worse for everybody else.
look prattle about official oppression all you want, but wear the f/n mask and don't drive drunk. too much to ask?
@dave i've heard all your bullshit before. the reason the lockdowns are taking such a toll is because goddamned right wing politicians have eviscerated the already pitiful us social safety net, but not the safety net high above us to protect the wealthy elites, they make more money during the pandemic. address you objections to that policy, instead of this stupid denial of basic facts about the virus.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 25 2020 6:10 utc | 270
france 1st wave 30,000. stagnating til september.
now passed 50,000. good job... mainly care homes znd hospitals.
lockdown causing suicides and bankrupties of any small business. big actors waiting to buy all.
Posted by: Mina | Nov 25 2020 8:50 utc | 271
Posted by: foolisholdman | Nov 24 2020 19:24 utc | 243 -- "The reason that WG and others (Including myself.) seem to you to think that China and its allies are wonderful and the West is all bad, is because they reckon that almost of all that appears in the western media, about those countries, is either slanted in a negative sense or outright damaging, denigratory or sneering lies and they want to tilt the narrative a bit in the other direction. We all know that there are good things in the West, but think that they get more than their fair share of publicity, while good thing about China are suppressed or denied."
Thanks, Old Man. Again, I say, there is nothing Foolish about that. You so get it !!! :o)
Posted by: kiwiklown | Nov 25 2020 9:49 utc | 272
Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 24 2020 18:46 utc | 236 --
WOW, Gruff !!! Thanks !!!
That is great writing, and of course, great writing comes from great thinking.
I have saved your post for further reflection.
So much to learn; so little time.
This is one great site never mind the noise.
Posted by: kiwiklown | Nov 25 2020 9:51 utc | 273
Posted by: Shakesvshav | Nov 24 2020 16:32 utc | 226 -- "....you have set up in New York Harbour a monstrous idol which you call Liberty...."
What wisdom! Is that quote studied in ANY American school?
And is there a parallel quote about how Americans bow down to Mammon, calling themselves 'consumers' instead of human beings? living 'lifestyles' instead of living lives? thinking that freedom is licence to larcency instead of the presence of justice?
And is it taught anywhere in America that the worst thing to suffer in Hell is not the flames, but the anguish of regret? regret for a life wasted?
Posted by: kiwiklown | Nov 25 2020 9:56 utc | 274
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Nov 24 2020 19:36 utc | 245 -- "If America can fully decouple from these markets so that our local ones can have a fighting chance at resurgence, I see a reorientation away from cross-sphere globalism, which will benefit all nations."
Thanks, nemesiscalling.
I stand with you in wishing America can fully decouple from Asian markets, if only so that Asia and the world can be left alone to grow rice, not war.
And while decoupling, please kindly remove your 1,000 military bases, spy stations, bio-labs, colour revolutions, undersea listening stations, spy satellites, et al.
And as well, please kindly stop lecturing us daily about your 'western values'.
Posted by: kiwiklown | Nov 25 2020 10:03 utc | 275
Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 24 2020 19:36 utc | 244 -- "I wonder how many of the naysayers on this thread owe money but think they're free?"
Excellent question! How can a man be 'free' if he owes a mortgage?
The Old French / Latin meaning of 'mortgage' was 'death contract', connoting how French peasants worked till death to repay their debt to lenders who did not till the fields, but sat in mansions, collecting punitve interest. When the poor peasant dies before repaying the loan, his son inherits the obligation to work till death in dad's place. This was a multi-generation death trap: debt slavery unto death.
[ Aside: In researching the provenance of that dastardly word, 'mortgage', I discovered that the MSM has completely hidden from us the recent nationwide mortgage cancellation by 2 nations, Iceland and Norway! I am sure psychohistorian will have something to add concerning the pernicious harm to humanity from private finance. ]
Freedom is not the persistence of sloganeering, but the presence of justice: equal justice for all -- certainly not the US system of wink wink for the powerful; prison for the poor ( broken tail lights, anybody? )
But many Americans think they are free who shouts "freedom" loudest.
Posted by: kiwiklown | Nov 25 2020 10:19 utc | 276
I didn’t got a fair payback for time and clicks invested in this specific discussion. One would expect some eyeopening and guiding viewpoints on divers global and geopolitical aspects of this p(l)andemic (what is a pandemic to a believer is plandemic to the none-believer).
As I mentioned in a previous comment, trivial discussions about numbers, masks, PCR test result, degree of efficiency of Lockdowns, general vs. virus related mortality rates, comparison of Eastern vs. Western vaccines can be discussed everywhere. 10 months+ of such debates around the globe proves that unfortunately not only elites own the main narratives discussed in the advanced and developing societies but they are also able to mobilize surface-scratching opinions pro and con, fighting each other on a path to nirvana, a dead end.
In regard to this p(l)andemic discussion, very serious issues, were ignored again:
- increased public poverty, national governments debt and the actual effect of this on developing vs. Industrial societies
- increased unemployment and bankruptcy in South without Fiat money and North with Fiat money, the monopolies, global finance institutions
- accelerated extension and share-taking of multinational controlled digital markets and the process of replacement of traditional markets which were used to define national identity and culture
- extended DNA mapping of world population, gathering of genetic information of different parts of different countries under general audition of global institutions (WHO, Gavi, ...)
- alarming level of global surveillance and the legalization of state controlled limitations of citizen rights (rights not freedom)
The fact that the rich got richer under p(l)andemic is just the tip of the iceberg. A lot of changes going on (global redefinition of work forces and work processes, market shares, national government authority and independence, ...) and there is no time to waste on trivial questions.
Posted by: Framarz | Nov 25 2020 11:01 utc | 277
“Americans are, in effect, expressing the longing and desperation of their soul.”
Read: deathwish
Posted by: Line Islands | Nov 25 2020 11:38 utc | 278
Absolutely shocked by the level of covid denialism on this board. This /is/ like SARS, contra the hot garbage spewed by a Dr Roger Hodkinson linked to in a video by a commenter. Left to “burn through” the U.S. population, it would kill several million. It may do so no matter what, now that the Trump regime has bet on “herd immunity” — a Mengelean phrase if ever there was one. Hodkinson reminds me of General Buck Turgidson in “Strangelove,” advising the president that a nuclear war would be just a matter of a little megadeath.
Lock-downs are a must, but they only work is they come with a central plan that gives support to everyone, keeps everything in a kind of a cryogenic freeze while the virus is whittled down and contained. Without the social safety supports and central planning so anathema to our capitalist regimes, the lockdowns are indeed worse than useless: they bankrupt the economy while only postponing the inevitable. It’s thanks to guys like Hodkinson in the U.S. that “herd immunity” and a dubious vaccine moon shot were the preferred course. You minimize the enemy and you end up dead.
Guess what? The vaccines are too little, too late. With exponential spread in full swing, the U.S. is going to be decimated, and no vaccines will arrive soon enough or in sufficient quantity to stop it. Thanksgiving and Christmas will be like the shockwave from a nuclear blast. Right now we can just see the rising fireball from a distance.
Posted by: Line Islands | Nov 25 2020 12:02 utc | 279
Posted by: jef | Nov 24 2020 23:58 utc | 261
Your understanding of the cycle threshold is way off= no cycle threshold count is as low as 5, 10 or 20 anywhere, that I've ever read. And I've read a lot.
read the linked information in my comment at Posted by: R Rose | Nov 24 2020 22:31 utc | 260-
the first one explains cycle threshold very clearly (in my opinion)
the second one contains the number the cycle threshold is set at for the PCR tests done in specific locals
It is the high number of CT's that cause the false positives because they are detecting dead material (can't be cultured = dead = not infectious)
actually I'll make it easy and bring the links here
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S138665322030175X
Posted by: R Rose | Nov 25 2020 12:07 utc | 280
Posted by: Mina | Nov 25 2020 8:50 utc | 272
"now passed 50,000. good job... mainly care homes znd hospitals."
I have noticed that Europe is the only place surpassing the USA in Corona statistics, but it seems to get less attention because its spread over a couple dozen little countries. One has to suspect opportunistic granny and deplorable pruning is going on both there and here. But I suspect that most of it is incompetence, "nobody ever thought we'd have serious pandemic diseases again".
Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 25 2020 12:10 utc | 281
“At a deep level, we're valuing fear over actually living our lives to the fullest.”
What good is living your life to the fullest if you’re dead?
Posted by: Line Islands | Nov 25 2020 12:22 utc | 282
uncle tungsten @253
Fair points, however we must deal with reality. I've no problem with socialism when it improves society - health care being a prime example. I've always supported the revolutions in Cuba, Iran and Venezuela because socialism was used to counter the malicious influence of Anglo-American interests.
Unfortunately the media created Left is the Left everyone is having to deal with now. This is the Left that gains power and influences social behavior and rules. It's the Left that is pushing political correctness, global warming and now Covid tyranny. In short, it is the Left everyone else must react to.
Perhaps communism was a good idea for Russia in 1917. After the Bolsheviks hijacked the Revolution, it was the Bolsheviks that Russians had to live with. Ultimately Bolshevik/Communist came to be seen as one in the same. It would have been nice if everyone could have read Marx and seen the difference.
We see this media hijacking occur on the Right as well. Flag waving, pro-war patriotism is always an easy sell. Yet we still have conservative-traditionalism. It's playing defence but it still exists. Where are the real socialists? Why did they allow their movement to be so easy usurped by the media Left?
It's not the fault of Conservatives that the visible Left are made up of minority freaks who fully support any kind of authoritarianism. That's the reality we must live with. It's little comfort there are decent, powerless socialists out there.
Posted by: EoinW | Nov 25 2020 12:25 utc | 283
@21 “So until now, COVID-19 stands at 1/3rd of the tally of cancer in any regular year.”
So what you’re saying is, not to worry, all we have is a new disease analogous to call cancers on our hands.
And you treat the covid deaths like they’re static. The only reason the US is “merely” at 250k is that the country has been partially locked down. Now it’s open and joining the curve it narrowly avoided in March. Though we’ve seen 250k deaths in the past 9 months, we’ll see another 100k in the next three months, and perhaps another 100k in the month after that.
You’re a lemming.
Posted by: Line Islands | Nov 25 2020 12:30 utc | 284
"i would also note that highest number of dead today in the usa from covid since may 7th...2187 dead from covid today.. is any of it preventable?? do masks work? my impression is that masks do work and the reason for the number of dead in the usa is related to this too... the numbers are going the wrong way for the usa... i think this is testimony to the topic of whether masks work or not..."
Posted by: james | Nov 25 2020 3:39 utc | 269
I think of it as a kind of National Darwin Award. I think that's how our "elites" think of it too, weeding out of the old and unfit (not them of course, but perhaps a few of their hangers-on too).
Masks, social distancing, and supported isolation/quarantine/lockdown to interrupt community spread clearly DO work, but just as clearly not just anybody can pull it off.
I find the relative lack of interest in the role of travel in general and tourism and elite jet-setting around in particular in spreading the disease interesting too. It seemed pretty clear to me that the spread follows wherever heavy traffic goes first and heaviest. This make the Chinese achievement all the more noticeable.
Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 25 2020 12:32 utc | 286
@ 284 EoinW
“Where are the real socialists? Why did they allow their movement to be so easy usurped by the media Left?”
Ok, time for people like me to provoke again. Real socialist were the same you accuse of hijacking the revolution in Russia. Those who helped to win the war against fascism, breaking the chain of old colonialism, supporting national liberation movements in Vietnam, Cuba, Iran, Nicaragua, ... Those who lifted Gagarin to the orbit and constructed a balance of power against western imperialism and Nato.
Those real socialists, lost a war called the Cold War resulting in disappearance of USSR, GDR and the rest of Warsaw Pact and together with them, much of the rights gained by the working class around the world, during the Cold War. Since then, Left is not Left anymore, the winners of the Cold War and their Services (not the media), constructed the “New Left” which have nothing to do with Left values at all as you correctly described in your comment.
Main stream media is just a partner in crime in this story, causing that people like you would never come to such simple conclusions.
Posted by: Framarz | Nov 25 2020 12:57 utc | 287
Uncle tungsten @247 &270
What is really distressing me, here in the US, is the increasing level of strident demand for stricter lockdown, for punishment and ostracism of those who do not perfectly conform to some nebulous standard.
Easiest example at hand is the wife’s family. She has a large family locally, has had zero physical proximity to any of them, except her son, since April. Barked at by siblings for not masking on a Zoom meeting. This was a family that regularly got together to sing, together just to be together. The son has now tested positive three months out of four with no subsequent effect and is disbelieving. His wife has tested positive twice with no effect. Both of them are young, but obese, diabetic, hypertensive, a few other things. The son is now willing to come inside the house and take off his mask. But he is furtive about that, he works for the state doing something inexplicable in some diversity office, and he does not want to be spotted maskless.
Just got the news that a friend’s mother has died and has died of covid. She was 98 years old. I met her just once, two years ago, and thought she was well ready to go. The Facebook posts and emails over this are beyond belief. Basically no one in the loop has until this point known any deceased. It’s like they are rejoicing the old lady passed because it validates their religion. It is truly crazy living here.
Am actually discussing moving to a red state. Doubt we would be much welcome. Neither of us could ever stomach Trump. Neither of us has ever even much wanted to pass through redneck land. We are culturally big city people. Life in Chicago is just too much. It is like being buried alive.
Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 25 2020 13:05 utc | 288
Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 25 2020 13:05 utc | 289
We've always been fond of witch hunts here, so it's really no surprise. Any good witch hunt is a crisis, and any good crisis is an opportunity. Just ask Rahm. The problem is the public goes along, instead of going after the witch hunters like they should. We're too stupid to recognize where the threat is coming from. The media works hard to keep it that way.
Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 25 2020 13:14 utc | 289
This article makes a good point in which at what point does a government act to fight an adversary, such as this pandemic, without completely interfering or restricting its citizens rights. Many comments here seem to have completely missed the point.
It takes little effort to research and see that the spike in infections goes hand in hand with hospitalizations and deaths. Forget deaths for now. As many have said this virus kills very few. That's true. But think about hospitalizations. If all the beds are taken up by covid patients, theres no more beds for other sick. Not to mention fatigue of the medical staff. You cant also tell me putting bodies in freezer trucks (as is happening in texas) is no big deal.
Should a country be like, "whatever" and let this burn through? That would be very stupid as this pandemic could take more than a year to "burn through". That's on top of already spent time.
So a government has to act. Only a blind or imbecile person would disagree and still root for the "burn through" strategy.
Now, how much does a government act is the question and what this article is discussing. A sensible person would take a serious look and discuss. A non sensible person would just laugh it off as propaganda and fearmongering.
I have a cousin in Vietnam. It's true they are living a much more normal life right now than here in the US. They can travel freely go to restaurants, sightsee, etc. And there is no uncontrolled spread as here. Hell, he even sends me videos of his drone recordings, all over vietnam, and I'm jealous because here in "free" USA, I have a hard time finding a place where drones are allowed to fly. That horrible communist country.
I personally think it's too late to control the spread here in US. As it's raging inferno. But small local sporadic lockdowns will still need to be done to relieve pressure.
Me, myself, will be having 12 family members for Thanksgiving dinner. I'll be making good old fashioned turkey and its sidings of stuffing, cranberry, sweet potatoes. I know my family members and know they have been careful. Is there a small risk of a contagion? Sure. Am I worried or feel guilt? Nope. Everyone in the end is an adult and should not expect their nanny state to tell them what to do. I do know this will be the last family get together of the season as i know the spike is coming.
Finally on the vaccine. I would not take one immediately. It would be silly to take a rushed vaccine for a virus that kills less than 1% of ppl. I am just hoping for the miracles of treatments and mutations to make this virus really just another flu. In the meantime, masks, distancing and sporadic lockdowns are inevitable.
Posted by: comandante | Nov 25 2020 14:09 utc | 290
About the COVID-19 vaccines:
COVID vaccines: calling the shots
I repeat: under no circumstances take the mRNA vaccines (Moderna and Pfizer) and the AstraZeneca vaccine (chimpanzee adenovirus). The first two ones are carcinogenic (as they'll also damage and mutate your own healthy DNA), while the third one causes permanent and grave nerve damage. None of them compensate the risk.
Those big pharma companies have already received preemptive legal immunity from the USG. Thirty years from now, the mRNA vaccines will cause a cancer epidemic that will make the tobacco scandal of the 1970s look like a walk in the park.
If you really want to be vaccinated against COVID-19 - or if your country makes it obligatory -, take the Sputnik V or the Sinovac (Chinese) ones. Pay whatever you need to pay, do whatever you need to do, take only them. I'm assuming, for the sake of the argument, that there's no chance the Cuban vaccine ever gets out of the island nation.
Vk @ 292
What makes you think we will have a choice?
That they seem determined to go ahead with this experiment tells me that either those making the decisions are completely insane or we will simply be given placebos and the virus will vanish.
Way to early to be certain of your list of side effects. But all that could be possible and we simply do not know. Moderna (the name is just mRNA with three extra letters in middle) has been around forty years now, mostly with DARPA money and has never had a product, has never had any research that anyone would care about. Basically a military money pit. No reason to suppose they could do better than any other military boondoggle. Oh, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is now invested in Moderna. How very reassuring.
Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 25 2020 14:50 utc | 292
@Vk, if you don't mind, could you link to any studies that demonstrate a link between mRNA vaccines and carcinogenesis? I'm a little skeptical of that claim right off the bat and a cursory google scholar search isn't showing anything that jumps out supporting the claim.
Posted by: fnord | Nov 25 2020 16:23 utc | 293
"Posted by: circumspect | Nov 23 2020 18:33 utc | 26
Yes. My father died within three months of entering a nursing homes.
Aspiration pneumonia.
Entered fairly healthy; dead three months later.
Posted by: Jane | Nov 25 2020 16:39 utc | 294
@ Posted by: fnord | Nov 25 2020 16:23 utc | 294
That's the point: there are none:
Kirill Dmitriev: Questions on Sputnik V Vaccine Answered, Critics need to Look for Plank in Own Eyes
Our QuestionsWith all this in mind, Russia, as a clear established leader in vaccine research and having developed the safest and the most effective COVID-19 vaccine, has some questions of its own for Western vaccine makers who use mRNA and monkey adenovirus vector-based technologies. We can now ask the critics: “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”
Question 1: Are there any long-term studies of mRNA and monkey adenovirus vector-based technologies for carcinogenic effects and impact on fertility? (Hint: there are none)
Question 2: Could their absence be the reason why some of the leading pharmaceutical firms making COVID-19 vaccines based on these technologies pushed the countries buying their vaccines for full indemnification from lawsuits if something goes wrong?
Question 3: Why is Western media not reporting a lack of long term studies for mRNA and monkey adenoviral vector-based vaccines?
The mRNA is a very promising technology, which works in theory. The problem is manufacturing it with such precision. Also, the whole thing may be debunked.
@ Bemildred | Nov 25 2020 12:32 utc | 287... quote "Masks, social distancing, and supported isolation/quarantine/lockdown to interrupt community spread clearly DO work, but just as clearly not just anybody can pull it off." we agree! capitalism doesn't seem to want to pull it off, especially the type witnessed in the usa!
another of your quotes "I find the relative lack of interest in the role of travel in general and tourism and elite jet-setting around in particular in spreading the disease interesting too. It seemed pretty clear to me that the spread follows wherever heavy traffic goes first and heaviest. This make the Chinese achievement all the more noticeable." yes to this as well.. of course this would need to be monitored and it wasn't... if we are truly going to control a pandemic this is the first place we ought to be looking at... but the elites like to travel! international travel...
Posted by: james | Nov 25 2020 17:31 utc | 296
Posted by: james | Nov 25 2020 17:31 utc | 296
Thank you. Yep, they don't WANT to talk about it, because it points at them, the "elites" as the primary vector for the pandemic. Tsk.
Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 25 2020 17:49 utc | 297
@ bemildred... here in canada one could travel by plane in and out of the country during all of the encouraged lockdowns.... there is something wrong in that right their..
one can argue they didn't want to hurt the airline industry, but they are hurting a lot more then that this way... i am baffled by this aspect of it.. thanks for bringing it up!
@ Framarz | Nov 25 2020 12:57 utc | 288... you have many points worthy of conversation too, but not sure where to start on them all.. cheers..
Posted by: james | Nov 25 2020 18:06 utc | 298
Excellent coverage in the Tyee. Today's includes this
"...In the U.S., the number of confirmed COVID-19 cases is likely to increase to more than 20 million in the next two months before president-elect Joe Biden takes office — almost double the current 11 million. The prediction is based on recent levels of physical distancing, which are about 60 per cent of normal behaviour. If distancing efforts are stepped up slightly, to 50 per cent of normal — the average seen in August — around five million cases could be prevented..."
There is also a Nikiforuk piece on two physicists who are making the case for Canada to stop transmission of the disease completely. Wiping it out would have the added benefit of getting rid of the Alberta and Ontario regimes - diseases even more virulent than Covid.
Posted by: bevin | Nov 25 2020 18:15 utc | 299
Posted by: james | Nov 25 2020 18:06 utc | 299
Yes, that was a big mistake, not closing down travel to "save businesses", the only real hope for the tourism & travel businesses "as they were" was to kill COVID fast. The Chinese did it and they are cooking now. Some smaller countries pulled it off too. Our big shot deal-makers did not and do not have a clue when it comes to this sort of thing, all they know is money.
To walk in money through the night crowd, protected by money, lulled by money, dulled by money, the crowd itself a money, the breath money, no least single object anywhere that is not money, money, money everywhere and still not enough, and then no money, or a little money or less money or more money, but money, always money, and if you have money or you don’t have money it is the money that counts and money makes money, but what makes money make money?
-- Henry Miller in "Tropic of Capricorn"
Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 25 2020 18:35 utc | 300
The comments to this entry are closed.
Posted by: Paco | Nov 24 2020 6:56 utc | 187 -- ".... this arrogant know it all harpy who deep inside thinks she is interviewing some kind of savage is deeply humiliated by a truly surprising Aliev."
Thank you, Paco. As Plastic Pelosi prattled, what a beautiful sigh t!!!
It is rare these days to see a real man yielding zero ground, pushing back at unfair American-styled in-your-face 'journalism'.
What an obnoxious snotty-nosed fake news purveyor. She even wears on her face a pretended concern for "democracy", "freedom", "Western values".
Posted by: kiwiklown | Nov 24 2020 11:11 utc | 201